Politics

by Mike Masnick


Filed Under:
copyright, laws, lobbyists, spain



Looks Like Entertainment Industry Lobbyists Got To The Spanish Government

from the and-here-we-go-again dept

We had just been noting how Spanish courts seemed to be actually interpreting copyright law in a reasonable way, and slapping down industry attempts to abuse the laws. Of course, that couldn't last. It appears that Spain is now proposing new copyright laws that would bring its existing laws down the well-lobbied path of draconian punishment, increased third party liability and other mindless ideas that have more to do with propping up an old business model than encouraging the creation of new quality content. A bunch of professional content creators in Spain are organizing to protest these new rules, but do they stand a chance against the usual onslaught of industry lobbyists?

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  • identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 2 Dec 2009 @ 12:51pm

    Posts like this make me wonder: Mike, do you approve of piracy? Without piracy, do you honestly think that most people would run P2P stuff on their computers all the time? Do you think they would pay an expensive internet connection to share only legal stuff?

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • icon
      :Lobo Santo (profile), 2 Dec 2009 @ 1:05pm

      Re:

      (Hello Coward! Welcome to the internet.)

      You should take some time to thumb through the last--let's say year--of posts and you'll find your ignorance concerning Mike's stance on piracy washed away by a torrent (not pun) of newly acquired information; a torrent only equaled by your mother's alcohol consumption while she was pregnant with you.

      (Seriously, who would name their kid 'Anonymous'? She must've been REALLY drunk.)

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • identicon
      TheStupidOne, 2 Dec 2009 @ 1:09pm

      Re:

      Well I can't speak for Mike but I can add my 2 cents ...
      Yes, and yes. I download things like Linux distributions, open source software installs, music and videos are are legally shared in P2P systems. I also watch lots of online videos, play online games, often times have high quality audio streams playing while browsing the internet and someone is watching a Netflix movie in the next room. So a high speed internet connection is incredibly useful to me.

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

      • icon
        aguywhoneedstenbucks (profile), 2 Dec 2009 @ 1:20pm

        Re: Re:

        I have to second the stupid one. I have a fair internet package because I play a lot of games and because I do a LOT of work from home, much of which involves remotely connecting to servers on different networks. I don't even think I installed a torrent program (and I refuse to run Kazaa/Limewire/what have you) on my current machine. I also share my music when I get time along with jamming online, so a good upload speed helps me out greatly. All of those things are legal last I checked. My music, my work, games I pay to play (or that are free). All 100% legal fun. Have I ever been a raporist? Sure, once upon a time, but not in years. My internet package then was atrocious even by the standards of that time.

        Does the grandparent think that just because someone enjoys their nice internet package that they are raporists?

        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • icon
      Mike Masnick (profile), 2 Dec 2009 @ 1:12pm

      Re:

      Posts like this make me wonder: Mike, do you approve of piracy?

      Approve? No. Nor do I participate. But that has nothing to do with the law being proposed, which would add third party liability not to those who pirate, but those who provide basic technological services.

      Without piracy, do you honestly think that most people would run P2P stuff on their computers all the time?

      Why should that matter? This is an honest question. It is happening no matter what you hope will happen. So why bother with conjecture that is an impossibility?

      Do you think they would pay an expensive internet connection to share only legal stuff?

      There are tons of reason to pay for an internet connection that have nothing to do with piracy. I believe that internet penetration would be almost identical in the absence of piracy.

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

      • icon
        aguywhoneedstenbucks (profile), 2 Dec 2009 @ 1:27pm

        Re: Re:

        Someone just came and paid me to rearrange your post to show how much you love piracy. Now that I have been compensated, this is what I got:

        "I participate. There are tons of reason to pay for an internet connection that have to do with piracy."

        Oh, it was all in code but I figured it out. Mike can no longer hide!

        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

      • icon
        Dark Helmet (profile), 2 Dec 2009 @ 1:32pm

        Re: Re:

        "There are tons of reason to pay for an internet connection that have nothing to do with piracy. I believe that internet penetration would be almost identical in the absence of piracy."

        This is the thing that I don't think these entertainment people can get a grasp on. People like some of their stuff, and for those that aren't true fans, when it's free they'll go ahead and grab onto it, sometimes becoming true fans and sometimes not.

        But if you take that stuff away from them, no problem. They'll go get other free stuff. Amatuer artists, lesser known indy bands, free news, etc. etc. etc.

        We can all argue the morality and/or economic impact of piracy until we're blue in the face, and I think there are at least a couple of different legitimate viewpoints, but this notion that the entertainment industry has that the thirst for connectivity and content that makes up the demand for the internet revolves around them is arrogant on a level that is hard to comprehend...

        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

      • identicon
        Anonymous Coward, 2 Dec 2009 @ 2:04pm

        Re: Re:

        I appreciate your comments, but I have to say your words here and your posts generally don't line up.

        First off, third party liability only exists if there is in fact piracy. Without piracy, there would be no liability, right? So what you are saying is that there shouldn't be third party liability because it is likely that there is piracy.

        An anti-piracy stand would be more like "Let's get rid of those pirates so that third parties can't be found liable of anything".

        There are tons of reason to pay for an internet connection that have nothing to do with piracy.

        Way to read HALF a thought!

        Without piracy, do you honestly think that most people would run P2P stuff on their computers all the time? Do you think they would pay an expensive internet connection to share only legal stuff?

        There are plenty of reasons to have a good internet connection (mine runs nearly 20MB/sec), but the question is would people who currently are the backbone of P2P networks continue to be that way if they could only share legal stuff? Do you honestly think that TPB would be such a popular site with only legal torrents? Do you think that kids would pester their parents into getting an even faster internet connection if the only think there were doing was watching videos (that stream at I believe that internet penetration would be almost identical in the absence of piracy.

        Again, a deflection. Internet penetration could include everyone on a dialup. Speed isn't a measurement. The question would be the penetration of ultra high speed internet, and perhaps even use of a significant amount of bandwidth with it.

        Third party liablity might go a long way to stop service providers from thumbing their noses at copyright holders.

        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

        • identicon
          Anonymous Coward, 2 Dec 2009 @ 2:13pm

          Re: Re: Re:

          They're not thumbing their noses at the content industries. If a copyright holder finds a case of infringement on an ISP's network then they can file a DMCA takedown notice.

          Problem solved. There are laws already in place. The laws aren't stopping the content industries from acting.

          Weren't these laws lobbied by the content industries in the first place?

          reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

        • icon
          Richard (profile), 2 Dec 2009 @ 2:39pm

          Re: Re: Re:

          Without piracy, do you honestly think that most people would run P2P stuff on their computers all the time? Do you think they would pay an expensive internet connection to share only legal stuff?


          Are you aware how deeply insulting this statement is!

          You are claiming that all the content produced by those who are happy to share it is worthless with your disparaging "only legal stuff".

          Please show some respect for those who accept the implications of the new technology and don't try to fight an unwinnable war against it.

          Please show some respect for those who are happy to put out their work on creative commons or free software licenses.

          Please show some respect for those authors and musicians who respect and trust their fans.

          Please show some respect for the tradition of sharing in the scientific community (especially the physics community) out of which the internet and the worldwide web was born.

          reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

          • identicon
            Anonymous Coward, 2 Dec 2009 @ 3:05pm

            Re: Re: Re: Re:

            As an artist who gifts their work into the public domain, which I love so much, I just have to say, thank you!

            reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

          • identicon
            Anonymous Coward, 2 Dec 2009 @ 4:06pm

            Re: Re: Re: Re:

            I have total respect for you, and the 0.000001% of all P2P traffic that legal material probably represents. It's the other 99.999999% that is the issue.

            reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

            • identicon
              Anonymous Coward, 2 Dec 2009 @ 5:04pm

              Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

              Interesting numbers. What area did you pull them out of?

              reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

            • icon
              Richard (profile), 3 Dec 2009 @ 6:37am

              Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

              I have total respect for you, and the 0.000001% of all P2P traffic that legal material probably represents. It's the other 99.999999% that is the issue.
              And by including those numbers you completely and utterly undermine what you just said.

              The numbers are of course fictional - but what you are saying is:

              (I have total respect for you)*0.000001%
              and 99.999999% disrespect.

              I don't call that respect!

              reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

          • identicon
            Anonymous Coward, 2 Dec 2009 @ 4:20pm

            Re: Re: Re: Re:

            Let me add this:

            Please show some respect for the tradition of sharing in the scientific community (especially the physics community) out of which the internet and the worldwide web was born.

            The military might have something to say about that gentle re-writing of history.

            reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

        • icon
          ChurchHatesTucker (profile), 2 Dec 2009 @ 4:49pm

          Re: Re: Re:

          "Without piracy, there would be no liability, right? "

          You really should RTFA before you post.

          reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

        • icon
          lavi d (profile), 2 Dec 2009 @ 4:55pm

          Re: Re: Re:

          First off, third party liability only exists if there is in fact piracy. Without piracy, there would be no liability, right?

          Yes. That's why gun manufacturers are held liable for shooting deaths.

          reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

        • identicon
          Luci, 2 Dec 2009 @ 6:52pm

          Re: Re: Re:

          *sniff* I smell a shill. Can you smell that? Third-party liability would mean Google/YouTube would be liable for the actions of their users. Big bucks!

          No, you can't have third-party liability. Go away, now, since you make no sense at all. And no, I'm not going to give you a metaphor. I know you're not that stupid.

          reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • icon
      Chronno S. Trigger (profile), 2 Dec 2009 @ 1:19pm

      Re:

      I admit, without the piracy controversy I would have never started up my P2P host. I don't give two craps about Linux. But now that I've found so much legal free stuff to share just to piss of the RIAA, it's not going to stop. I will keep my P2P running just because more people need the opportunity to find what I have, even if the RIAA vanished tomorrow.

      I'd have the big fat internet pipe no matter what. I do way too much other stuff not to have it.

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • identicon
      Anonymous Coward, 2 Dec 2009 @ 1:30pm

      Re:

      So in other words having something that enables criminal activity = you are a criminal.

      I guess we should make having hands illegal then? The number one enabler of criminal acts is our hands after all.

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

      • icon
        Dark Helmet (profile), 2 Dec 2009 @ 1:38pm

        Re: Re:

        "I guess we should make having hands illegal then? The number one enabler of criminal acts is our hands after all."

        Dispute! I'd say we should all get lobotomies, because the brain has to be ranked higher than hands in causing criminal behavior...

        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

      • identicon
        Anonymous Coward, 2 Dec 2009 @ 1:38pm

        Re: Re:

        "So in other words having something that enables criminal activity = you are a criminal.

        I guess we should make having hands illegal then? The number one enabler of criminal acts is our hands after all."

        Actually it's our brains, as criminal activity is a behavior. So in order to cut criminal activity off at the knees I propose World Lobotomy Day, and I believe AC should be the spokesperson.

        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • icon
      Chuck (profile), 2 Dec 2009 @ 5:10pm

      Re:

      Try using driving in your analogy instead.
      Without racing, do you honestly think that most people would speed in their cars all the time? Do you think they would pay for an expensive sports car to drive only at legal speeds?

      Yes. And it's not so much approving of piracy as it is trying to get the punishment fitting the crime. I mean, do J-walkers deserve to be amputated (so they can never j-walk again)?

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • icon
    Yano (profile), 2 Dec 2009 @ 1:18pm

    it's not about supporting piracy it's about IP and copyright laws actually taking precedent to our own legal rights including freedom of expression and privacy.
    we should start a political party, i would suggest to start lobbying and fight fire with fire but we can't; as basic human rights aren't supported by billion dollar industries.

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • identicon
    well, 2 Dec 2009 @ 1:29pm

    non commerical copying and fair use

    this is about spains rights and freedoms
    and ill say it
    FIGHT THEM
    riaa/mpaa are bad evil trolls and you will see them funny part is

    A) am i a thief in canada for using my blank cdrs ( CDR LEVY ) no
    B) am i the thief or are they with 17.07$ pop n popcorn at movie theatres
    C) cam law got one person convicted in 1.5 years ...LIKE OMG how much taxppayer money wasted on that could have went to foodbanks OR lowering taxes

    its economic american terrorism plain and simple by a small group who need like hockey players to take some pay cuts and USE TECHNOLOGY not be scared whiney of it

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • icon
    iamtheky (profile), 2 Dec 2009 @ 1:34pm

    Hes right on the last point in the rebuttal.

    I have seen plenty of "internet penetration" and very little of it has involved pirates.

    ty ty

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • identicon
    DH's love child, 2 Dec 2009 @ 1:41pm

    oops.. the previous post (World Lobotomy Day) was courtesy of me

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • identicon
    CVPunk, 2 Dec 2009 @ 2:50pm

    Oh Spain....

    whatever happened to the days of '36?

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • icon
    Marcel de Jong (profile), 3 Dec 2009 @ 4:39am

    This legislation is more like a disease or a virus, the way it spreads around the world.
    I find it hard to understand how it can be that different governments suddenly start to write new copyright laws so close after eachother.
    And I find it even harder to understand why these governmental agencies don't look at more experts, rather than just lobbyist from one side of the equation.
    Are they all blind and stupid?

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • identicon
    Anonymous, 20 Dec 2010 @ 5:10am

    Used tools

    We will use a tool called LOIC More details: http://www.anonops-irc.org/ or using the irc server irc.anonops.co.uk channels #operationpayback and #leysinde

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]


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