When Trolls Take On Tyrants: 4chan and Kiwi Farms Sue the UK Over Extraterritorial Censorship
from the we-fought-a-war-over-this-nonsense dept
Let’s be clear upfront: 4chan and Kiwi Farms are not the heroes of internet freedom. Both sites are notorious cesspools that have enabled harassment campaigns, doxxing, and some genuinely awful behavior over the years. They’re the kinds of places where maladjusted people gather to egg each other on toward increasingly toxic actions. Most reasonable people wouldn’t shed a tear if they disappeared tomorrow.
But here’s the thing about free speech principles: they’re not just for the speech you like. And when it comes to the UK’s disastrous Online Safety Act, even trolls can make valid constitutional points.
Last week, the two sites teamed up to file a lawsuit in US federal court against Ofcom, the UK agency in charge of regulating internet speech under the OSA, claiming the regulator’s attempts to enforce British law against wholly American companies violate their constitutional rights. The case highlights the fundamental absurdity of the UK’s approach to internet regulation—and raises serious questions about what happens when every country decides it can regulate the global internet.
The Complaint: A Surprisingly Coherent Constitutional Challenge
The 22-page complaint, filed in Washington D.C., doesn’t mince words about what Ofcom has been up to. According to the filing, Ofcom has been sending “legally binding information notices” to both sites demanding they comply with UK law, despite having no operations, infrastructure, or legal presence in Britain beyond being accessible to UK internet users.
The lawsuit opens with a pointed historical reminder:
Delaware was a colony of the Kingdom of Great Britain until the Assembly of the Lower Counties of Pennsylvania that declared itself independent of British authority on June 15, 1776, thereby creating the state of Delaware. Delaware subsequently was the first state to ratify the Declaration of Independence, the instrument which created the United States of America, on July 4, 1776. Under the terms of the 1783 Treaty of Paris, the Kingdom of Great Britain officially acknowledged the United States as a sovereign and independent nation.
The subtext is unmistakable: we fought a war 250 years ago to get out from under British regulatory authority, and we’re not going back now.
The lawsuit describes Ofcom’s approach in stark terms:
In fact, Ofcom’s conception of “keeping users safe” is keeping them “safe” from encountering points of view of which Ofcom disapproves. Ofcom purports to regulate content and interactions on platforms and services with which Plaintiffs’ users are voluntarily interacting. Ofcom seeks to control those interactions in order to satisfy the whims of Ofcom employees or the UK law enforcement or political apparatuses.
The complaint notes something particularly telling about Ofcom’s enforcement priorities:
On information and belief, most of the “online services” Ofcom intends to regulate, are based not in the United Kingdom, but in the United States. All four of Ofcom’s first social media enforcement targets, being SaSu, Gab, Kiwi Farms, and 4chan, are American.
That’s worth pausing on. Ofcom’s first round of enforcement actions targeted exclusively American websites. One can argue that these four sites (the other two, SaSu—or Sanctioned Suicide—and Gab are also among the most controversial websites on the internet) can be seen as particularly problematic, but this sure does feel like an effort by the UK to regulate American companies.
The Threats: Fines, Jail Time, and Bureaucratic Intimidation
The specific demands Ofcom has made are both breathtaking in their scope and chilling in their implications. According to the lawsuit, Ofcom has threatened both sites with:
civil fines, criminal charges, criminal fines, 6 months’ imprisonment when tried summarily, or even imprisonment for up to two years when tried on indictment.
For 4chan specifically, the threats escalated over several months. The complaint details a series of increasingly aggressive communications:
On April 14, 2025, Ofcom sent a so-called “legally binding information notice” to 4chan… The 4chan Information Notice stated that failure to comply with it “may also constitute a criminal offence” and that failure to provide the requested information in readable form to Ofcom “may result in a fine of £18 million or 10% of 4chan’s worldwide turnover, arrest, and/or imprisonment for a term of up to two years, or a fine (or both).”
When 4chan didn’t respond, Ofcom doubled down:
On April 30, 2025, Ofcom sent a second letter to 4chan…. The 4chan Failure to Respond to Information Notice Letter stated that 4chan was required to comply with the 4chan Information Notice, threatened a penalty of £18 million or 10% of 4chan’s worldwide revenue, whichever is greater, and advised 4chan that failing to comply with the 4chan Information Notice was a criminal offense
And again:
On June 9, 2025, 4chan received a letter from Ofcom in which Ofcom advised 4chan that it intended to open an investigation into 4chan for suspected violations of “illegal content risk assessment duties,” “safety duties about illegal content,” “record-keeping and review duties,” and “Section 102(8) duties about information notices.”
And again:
On June 16, 2025, Ofcom sent 4chan a so-called “final legal notice”…. The 4chan Final Legal Notice stated that “failure to comply” with it “may also constitute a criminal offence” and that failure to provide the requested information in readable form to Ofcom may result in a fine of £18 million or 10% of 4chan’s worldwide turnover, “imprisonment for a term of up to two years, or a fine (or both).”
And again (suggesting the “final” legal notice wasn’t so final):
On July 9, 2025, Ofcom sent 4chan an e-mail (the “4chan Preliminary Contravention Email”) stating its displeasure with the fact that 4chan had not responded to its prior correspondence “regarding 4chan Community Support LLC’s compliance with the duties in section 9(2) (illegal content risk assessment), 10 (illegal content safety duties), 23 (record keeping) and 102(8) (compliance with information notices) of the Online Safety Act 2023.”
And again:
On August 12, Ofcom sent a 33-page-long so-called “Provisional Decision notice”… threatened to impose a fine of £20,000 (twenty thousand pounds Sterling) on 4chan Community Support LLC, as well as daily fines of £100 (one hundred pounds Sterling) daily for noncompliance for up to a maximum of sixty days.
What’s particularly striking about this escalation is both its relentlessness and its procedural irregularity. The lawsuit notes that none of these demands were served through proper international legal processes:
None of these actions constitutes valid service under the US-UK Mutual Legal Assistance Treaty, United States law or any other proper international legal process.
For perspective, that’s threats of millions in fines and potential jail time for American citizens running American websites that happen to be accessible in the UK—all delivered via email rather than through established diplomatic channels.
The Constitutional Claims:
While the plaintiffs may be unsympathetic, their constitutional arguments make sense. The lawsuit raises several compelling claims:
First Amendment Violations: The complaint argues that UK demands would force the sites to remove content that is clearly protected speech under the U.S. Constitution. As they note:
Sections 9, 10, 12, 13, 23, 59, 100, 102, 113, and 179 of the OSA, taken individually and together… purport to compel U.S. website operators to express, or oblige U.S. website operators to censor, speech in a manner contrary to the protections of the Constitution of the United States.
The complaint gets specific about how this would work in practice. For instance, it notes that Section 179 of the OSA creates what amounts to a criminal defamation law—exactly the kind of restriction on speech that the First Amendment was designed to prevent:
Section 179 of the Online Safety Act, “the false communications offence,” makes it a criminal offense to send information which the sender knows to be false if, at the time of sending that message, the person intended the message to cause non-trivial psychological or physical harm to a likely audience, and the person had no reasonable excuse for sending that message.
As the plaintiffs note, “Defamation crimes such as Section 179 of the OSA, including the historical crime of seditious libel, were permanently abolished in the United States when the First Amendment of the United States Constitution was ratified on December 15, 1791.”
Fourth and Fifth Amendment Issues: The law would require the sites to conduct “risk assessments” and provide information to Ofcom on demand, potentially including self-incriminating information, without proper legal process. This mirrors problems courts have found with similar laws in the US, where mandatory “risk assessments” have been struck down as unconstitutionally compelled speech.
Section 230 Conflicts: The lawsuit argues that Ofcom’s demands directly conflict with Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act:
Section 230(c) of the Communications Decency Act immunizes providers of interactive computer services from liability for content created by their users, but Ofcom’s demands would impose such liability on the Plaintiffs by treating Plaintiffs as the “publisher or speaker” of their users’ speech
Of course, the first argument in response to this is that the Constitution and the laws of the US (like Section 230) only apply… in the US. And Ofcom’s obvious response is that even if they’re targeting American companies, they’re trying to protect UK users.
But this creates a fascinating jurisdictional puzzle. Yes, the Constitution and Section 230 only apply within the United States. But what happens when a foreign government tries to force American companies to violate American law to comply with foreign law? The complaint argues that this goes beyond normal conflicts of law into the realm of constitutional violation:
Ofcom’s notices and demands to 4chan… to the extent that they pertain to speech proscribed by Section 179 of the OSA, constitute foreign judgments that would restrict speech protected under U.S. law including under, e.g. the SPEECH Act, 28 USCS § 4101.
The Sovereign Immunity Problem: A Legal Long Shot
Here’s where the lawsuit gets legally interesting—and potentially problematic. Normally, you can’t sue a foreign government in U.S. courts because of sovereign immunity. But the plaintiffs argue Ofcom isn’t entitled to that protection for two reasons.
First, they claim Ofcom isn’t really a government entity:
Ofcom describes itself as “independent of government and the companies we regulate.”
Ofcom also says, of itself, that “Ofcom is not funded directly by taxpayers or the Government. Most of Ofcom’s funding comes from fees paid to us by the companies we regulate, to cover the cost of the work we do in their sectors.”
Ofcom is a private corporation that acts as an official censor of the British state even through it is not an instrumentality of the British state and not entitled to sovereign immunity under 28 USCS § 1604.
Second, they argue that even if Ofcom is considered a government entity, its activities constitute “commercial activity” that falls outside sovereign immunity protections:
If the Court determines that Ofcom is an instrumentality of the UK, then Ofcom’s activities constitute “commercial activity” carried on in the United States under 28 USCS § 1605(a)(2), and Ofcom is not immune from the jurisdiction of the courts of the United States for such activity. Therefore, the Foreign Sovereign Immunities Act would not bar this suit regardless of whether Ofcom is viewed as a corporation or as a state actor.
This is clever lawyering, but it’s also likely a reach. Courts are generally reluctant to find that foreign regulatory agencies aren’t entitled to sovereign immunity, even when they’re funded through fees rather than taxes. The argument that Ofcom is a private “enterprise” rather than a government entity feels like a stretch—most regulatory agencies worldwide operate with some degree of independence and industry funding without losing their governmental character. And even it’s backup claim feels unlikely to succeed. The commercial activity exception is narrow, and regulatory enforcement—even aggressive regulatory enforcement—typically doesn’t qualify.
The Bigger Picture: Extraterritorial Overreach
But even if this particular lawsuit faces long odds, it highlights a fundamental problem with the UK’s approach. The Online Safety Act essentially claims that any website accessible in the UK must comply with UK law, regardless of where it’s based or operated.
This is both practically unworkable and constitutionally problematic.
If Ofcom truly believes these sites are violating UK law and causing harm to UK users, there’s a straightforward remedy available: ban the sites. All of this effort seems to be because the UK is too afraid to take that step which makes it clear that they’re the censors. The UK could certainly move to require ISPs to block access to foreign websites that violate UK law. But that’s a big step, and one that shows who is really creating the problem.
That approach would be transparent about who is making the censorship decision and would avoid the jurisdictional mess of trying to regulate foreign companies.
Instead, Ofcom is trying to use the threat of massive fines and even criminal liability to force compliance with UK law by American companies that have no presence in the UK.
The Real Victims: Small Sites and Innovation
While 4chan and Kiwi Farms might survive this regulatory assault (or simply ignore it), the real victims of laws like the OSA are going to be smaller, more sympathetic websites. As we’ve already seen, numerous small forums and communities have shut down rather than deal with the compliance costs and legal uncertainty.
That’s the real tragedy of laws like the OSA. They don’t actually stop the worst actors—they just make it impossible for small, innovative, or non-commercial sites to operate.
Perhaps most troubling, the UK’s approach sets a dangerous precedent for global internet regulation. If every country can claim jurisdiction over any website accessible within its borders, the internet becomes subject to the most restrictive speech laws anywhere in the world.
We’re already seeing this play out. The EU’s Digital Services Act takes a similar approach. Various U.S. states are passing laws claiming authority over social media companies wherever they’re based. Australia just passed a law banning social media for minors that would apply to foreign companies.
The result is a regulatory free-for-all where websites face potentially conflicting legal demands from dozens of different jurisdictions, each claiming sole authority over global communications infrastructure.
Not Heroes, But Not Wrong Either
To be absolutely clear: this lawsuit doesn’t make 4chan and Kiwi Farms sympathetic figures. Both sites have enabled genuinely harmful behavior, and the internet would probably be a better place without them.
But on the narrow legal and constitutional questions at stake, they’re not wrong. The UK’s attempt to regulate American websites through threats of fines and imprisonment raises serious First Amendment concerns. The extraterritorial application of the Online Safety Act represents significant regulatory overreach.
More importantly, if we don’t push back against this kind of jurisdictional overreach when it targets unsympathetic defendants, we’ll have no grounds to complain when it inevitably targets more deserving ones.
The internet was designed to route around censorship. Laws like the UK’s Online Safety Act represent an attempt to make that impossible by giving every government veto power over global communications. That’s a future we should all be concerned about—regardless of what we think about the particular websites fighting it today.
Filed Under: 1st amendment, censorship, free speech, jurisdiction, ofcom, online safety act, uk
Companies: 4chan, kiwi farms


Comments on “When Trolls Take On Tyrants: 4chan and Kiwi Farms Sue the UK Over Extraterritorial Censorship”
how it gets decided
Hopefully this gets decided based on constitutional law and not merely on the technicality that they were incorrectly served notice.
taking vs giving
I think it could be argued that the sites didnt publish anything in Britain, but instead British subjects reached across the pond and read stuff that was posted in America. Blame your own people.
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Perhaps British packets should have a “British Bit” set, à la RFC 3514, so site operators know not to send any packets in response unless they’re willing to be subject to British law.
Re: Re:
Won’t someone please set the evil bit.
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Yawn – ofcom will just shut the sites down and in the case of 4Chan they could go after the owner who is Japanese and lives in Paris.
I don’t want KiwiFarms to win, so much as I want Ofcom to lose.
This is going to be Big
This is one thats been Floating around, Under the radar.
IS what is said Here, Safe/Sane, OK to say in another nation..
Next up?? Fighitng Copyright and IP, Internationally. 15 nations have NO such laws and are NOT Bound By International IP.
If you find yourself siding with Kiwifarms, you’re probably on the wrong side.
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In this case, KiwiFarms has an actual good point to make. That it’s a vile shitpit is part of that point: If Ofcom can do this to a site like KF, it can do this to any other site—including sites that aren’t nearly as heinous as KF. You don’t have to like KF, but being on Ofcom’s side here is a far worse decision.
Re: Re: The Phule
That it’s a vile shitpit undermines the argument that it can be done to any other site.
So far, it’s only being done to vile shitpits. Degrees are important for maintaining rule of law. It’s important to establish what degree is acceptable and what degree is unacceptable.
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And when the shitpits are closed, you can bet that the censors will be on the lookout for sites that aren’t quite shitpits but happen to carry speech that violates UK law…or merely offends a large amount of UK citizens, which is almost the same thing as being against the law these days.
The whole point of defending the 4chan/KF position here is to stop that kind of censorship before it spreads. It’s no different than the situation with paypros/credit card companies and the targeting of porn/“adult” speech: The de facto censorship started with more offensive kinds of porn, then eventually moved to kinks, and is now spreading to even vanilla pornography. Once censorship of certain kinds of offensive speech is normalized, what constitutes “offensive speech” will grow until you end up with one of two outcomes: the government burning books and instituting Newspeak, or the people fighting back to prevent burned books and Newspeak.
What speech do you like that others might find offensive? How long do you think it would take censors to figuratively crucify you for liking that speech? And if you’re fine with censorship of 4chan and KiwiFarms, how can you possibly defend the “offensive” speech you like when others want it censored?
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Eh. If there was any real justice in the world the people responsible and involved with kiwi farms would be strung up at the Hague for crimes against humanity.
Frankly, laws are not absolutely off/on and often the circumstances are important to the application. In these circumstances, frankly, I would prefer that the Uk win.
In other circumstances with less damnable opponents, I would prefer the Uk lose. But kiwifarms?
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I don’t disagree with you about KF. It should go down in flames—metaphorically, if not literally. But my point is that if Ofcom wins and gets to figuratively put KF’s head on a pike, Ofcom absolutely will not stop there. I can defend KF’s right to be free of Ofcom’s bullshit and still believe the site should go to Hell.
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We’re siding with proper rights and proper international jurisdictions and relations.
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FYI, 4Chan and Kiwifarms are shit pits, but Ofcom is in the role of the censor of adults (not merely adult content) as well as children trying to do homework, meaning the only correct position is neutral.
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Today, it’s Kiwifarms by UK.
Tomorrow, Wikipedia by China.
Things could go on until every country in the world finally declare web being a safe place for everyone.
A fee that you are required to pay by law is a tax.
OK, but a US federal court has just as little power over Ofcom. How would the court be able to grant the relief they are seeking?
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By ignoring Ofcom with the full force of the law.
Banks
Banks have long been subject to this kind of interjurisdictional whipsaw, especially with regard to informational demands related to their overseas operations. The risk of double liability is a fact of life in the world of banking. Banking is a trade in symbols, run run cross-border operations for centuries. Bankers can only welcome the Internet to the club.
US courts have usually been reasonable, although the jurisprudence sometimes resembles a game of chicken.
Yes, but
The UK approach is certainly muddle headed, but the underlying issue is very real and isn’t going to go away. Countries do have different perceptions and histories of moderating speech and the often heard simplistic line that it is illegitimate to restrict speech in any way beyond what would be legal in the US fails to recognise the legitimacy of difference.
The answer cannot be that US law becomes global law by assertion. It is perfectly legitimate in principle for other countries to set other standards and to compel compliance with those standards. The problem is that the balkanisation of the internet is not desirable either and nobody has yet come up with a good way of balancing that tension.
None of that is to say that the new UK law takes a sensible approach. But the UK undoubtedly has a right to regulate publication, as does every other country. That right needs to be recognised not dismissed.
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What other countries do you reckon that applies to? Should American companies be bound to North Korean law?
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The answer is that Ofcom can block sites that violate UK law if they’re not based in the UK. That would be an explicit admission that Ofcom’s goal is to be a censorship bureau, but that’s besides the point—if Ofcom doesn’t want Brits seeing 4chan, it has an incredibly simple solution to that problem.
Re: compliance is legitimate??
You say “It is perfectly legitimate in principle for other countries to set other standards and to compel compliance with those standards.” Ok then what if it was China? Would you still think they had a right to compel compliance with their internet rules? Saying every country has the right to regulate the entire world wide internet is ridiculous.
Re: Re: Wow, you got it First try.
Many nations Block certain sites that are on the Net.
China, N. Korea, Entrea,
Then there is Filtering
Iran, Saudi Arabia, Syuria, Vietnam, Cuba, Turkmenistan, Then a random Comment.
“While some countries, such as Germany, have legal exceptions that restrict content like hate speech, many others block access to specific sites for political or social reasons. ”
Here, you go read..
https://www.google.com/search?q=countries+that+block+Internet+sites&rlz=1C1ONGR_enUS1148US1149&oq=countries+that+block+Internet+sites&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyBggAEEUYOdIBCTE0MDg3ajBqNKgCALACAQ&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
THEN lets Add that States in the USA are Blocking Porn sites, or FORCING LEGAL ID
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Then they can block the internet.
The UK should ban their IP, like the do with pirating sites. Simple.
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As the article notes, Ofcom can’t do that because proving that they’re willing to censor overseas content is not a good look for them.
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Just because it hasn’t yet, doesn’t mean it can’t, or won’t. The idea that it’s scared to do so isn’t really based on anything, just speculation. The reality is it’s just going through the process, and it likely will eventually block them.
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Is that true, though? The British Board of Film Classification doesn’t seem to have any problem with being seen that way.
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Except I don’t have to show ID to watch an 18 rated film in the cinema, whereas I have to prove I’m an adult just to search certain terms related to sexual health. Also, in your statement, you’re asserting American parents are censors for not sitting their rugrats down in front of a violent horror.
Re: Re: Re:2
I think you misunderstand what the British Board of Film Classification is. Their ratings are not just “suggestions” like U.S. ratings; it’s actually illegal to sell films in the U.K. that haven’t been rated by them, or to sell them to people who are too young for a given rating.
They were, in fact, involved in a plot to mandate the very “prove you’re an adult online” thing you’re complaining about.
Re: Re: Re:3
But it’s not illegal for British parents to allow their six-year-olds (for example) to watch an 18-rated film, and I don’t know any retailer here that will sell an NC-17 movie to a child of that age, so all the UK has done is codify in their laws what is standard practice here.
If ofcom is allowed to regulate USA websites what’s to stop turkey or Iran or china from fining or regulating all websites and apps this way lies chaos .the web will be subject to the most strict regulation eg any websites that post political or adult content will be out of business as it has to pay fines to
Many country’s
But then the UK is arresting people for tweeting anitrans content or holding up a sign that
criticized the IDF genocide in Gaza
Its simple no country should seek to regulate another country’s websites if ofcom wants to block 4chan it has ways that do so
Ofcom is simply the agency that enforces the uks new awful law on
Online ID verification
Theres no free speech law in the UK so ofcom can do anything it wants to regulate online content
Trump should make it clear the USA government is the only agency that has the right to regulate American based websites
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Sure.
In return the usa shall give up applying it’s laws outside of the us. Such as copyright.
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Copyright structure is by international agreements. US copyright, never a slacker in becoming worse on its own, was made much worse bythe Berne Convention. Copyright in many places is actually much worse than the US.
Not that the US and the UK and EU didn’t drag loads of other countries into the insanity.
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Say you don’t understand what you’re talking about without saying that you don’t understand what you’re talking about again, this time, with feeling.
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FYI, Graham Linehan was arrested for inciting violence against women perceived to be trans, actually. Fucking transphobe.
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They already try to do this. The thing that stops it from mattering is they have no means of enforcing it outside of their borders. The only way they have leverage is if the website wants to stay unblocked in the country.
This is like when Russia fined Google $20 decillion.
I’d 4 chan gets regulated the next step will be meta or reddit or general news websites
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All covered sites are regulated already. This is the “enforcement”.
Batman quote
What’s that Batman quote about the hero we deserve, not the hero we need?
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The heroes so many of us sure as fuck did not want, but the heroes we got due to some assholes being victimized by other assholes and choosing to fight.
Doesn’t have the same ring, admittedly.
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(Source)
Well said. Hopefully this is a case that doesn’t end in bullshit for once.
Boy, talk about a weak opening to the article:
They are both EDGELORDY sites, but with clear rules AGAINST HARASSMENT. Reddit does far worse than either of them on a regular basis and never gets anywhere neat as much heat as they do.
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You’re saying this about KiwiFarms, and you expect anyone with an ounce of sense to believe you. I’m sorry, what?
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-Rules against harassment
-Entire site is about harassing people
-??????
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The all-caps and punctuation not convincing?
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Just go to kiwifarms and search for “DON’T DO THIS” (in quotes). It often comes next to some variation of “USER HAS BEEN THREADBANNED FOR THIS”.
Both often found in posts bragging about messing with a thread’s subject. They actually don’t like it.
You don’t have to believe me in me in the same way you seem to believe every moral panic peddler out there, you can literally check it out yourself. Even via TOR if you want.
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Even if KF has a policy against announcing harassment, it isn’t doing anything to prevent harassment. KF allows people to dox “lolcows”, which would make said “lolcows” targets for harassment regardless of KF’s policies. The site is a harassment generator; if you believe you can prove otherwise, go ahead and try.
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Maybe someone wrote some rules once, or something, lol?
The link behind the text “22-page complaint” goes to the wrong page (about something to do with the Library of Congress, not this story).
The same logic applies to national sovereignty.
If you’re arguing Ofcom has jurisdiction to ban the sites, there’s no reason it can’t take other remedies. It’s not required to use the remedy you’d prefer. (Also, this works in reverse. If they don’t want to be regulated in the UK, block the UK)
No offense, but this lawsuit is performative at best, and I don’t know why 4chan/kiwifarms are bothering to piss away the money to inevitably lose. On the narrow legal issue, they’re very, very wrong.
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Ofcom is stationed in the UK. Neither 4chan nor KiwiFarms have any actual presence in the UK other than people in the UK can view those sites. If Ofcom wants to prevent UK citizens from seeing those sites, it can geoblock those sites from being viewable in the UK. It shouldn’t—and must not—have the right to unilaterally shut those sites down by threatening their owners/administrators with fines and jail time. If Ofcom is allowed to wreck 4chan and KiwiFarms, regardless of how odious those sites are, it can basically play censor across the entire world by forcing any site stationed anywhere outside the UK to operate under the UK’s laws.
I assume Ofcom can instruct Internet access providers in the UK to geoblock 4chan, KiwiFarms, and any other website Ofcom wants to make unavailable in the UK. For what reason, other than not wanting to be seen as censors, should Ofcom refuse to use that solution to its problem?
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It shouldn’t have that power, but if they’re not in the country (and barring any treaties), it doesn’t have that power. It’s moot. A country can issue fines all it wants, it won’t be able to collect. The end result is that the sites will be blocked eventually. If it had any way to actually enforce this outside of it’s borders, this would be a huge problem. But it doesn’t, they’re just empty threats.
They have the power to do that, and I suspect that’s where it will end up. The law sets out a specific procedure for Ofcom to block: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2023/50
(Section 146 ish. 146 is the full block, but the sections preceding go into things like warnings that need to be sent, evidence, etc)
But even if it didn’t, it’s pretty normal for bureaucrats to go through a bureaucratic process, even if it’s clear where it’s going to end up. They don’t really have any reason to rush. If anything, rushing would look bad (and not rushing also would have benefit for avoiding legal headaches like whatever the equivalent to equal protection clause the UK has). Just following the procedure ties it up neatly for them, and they don’t have any reason to care otherwise.
I doubt they really care about the image of being a censor (something they already have). And even just in a practical sense, the people that dislike Ofcom now are largely going to be the same once it actually enforces a block. It’s not really a meaningful distinction when a bunch of sites have already ‘voluntarily’ pulled out/died.
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And yet, it is trying to exercise that power. Even if they don’t have that actual power, trying to exercise it as if they do—and thus trying to scare non-UK websites into either complying with UK law or shutting down—is bullshit. That’s why I am on the “side” of 4chan and KF, even thought that support is limited strictly to its legal arguments against Ofcom’s attempted abuse of power.
None of what follows there answers my original question: For what reason, other than not wanting to be seen as censors, should Ofcom refuse to make UK ISPs geoblock non-UK sites that violate UK law?
Re: Re: Re:2
So far, it hasn’t tried to enforce it outside of the UK. It hasn’t gone through diplomatic channels, filed in a U.S. court, etc. If it starts trying to do that, that would be a huge problem.
Sure. But there is a distinction that is worth drawing between what they’re doing, and their right to do it. As analogy, someone with freedom of speech has the ability to use that speech to say some stupid bullshit, part of the right is they’re allowed to say stupid bullshit. A similar concept applies to sovereignty- part of sovereignty is a sovereign country can do some stupid bullshit. If a sovereign wants to do some pfaffing about before geoblocking to make it feel better, it can do that. It doesn’t make it not stupid bullshit. Similar to speech, I do think it’s important to stand up for it’s sovereignty, even if the way it’s using it in this case is stupid.
Although, as far as coerciveness goes, the suggestion of blocking sites isn’t really much better. It still impacts the site, including lost ad revenue/users contributing, etc.
Are you asking “should” as in a normative statement, or are you asking why they haven’t? Because those are two different things. Especially since the law seems to have a particular process it’s obligated to follow before it can choose to block or not.
Should Ofcom follow the law, and follow the procedure before blocking them? Yes. (Putting process constraints aside) should it refuse to block them? No, you may as well just skip to the blocking, in my opinion. Does it have reasons for doing so? Yes. And I can understand those reasons, even if I disagree with them. Ofcom doesn’t care what I think.
That said, I wouldn’t really calling it ‘refusing’ to do so, yet. It just hasn’t gotten to it yet. That’s not quite the same thing. The distinction matters, because I’m pretty confident it will start blocking sites once it goes through that process.
Re: Re: Re:3
Still better (and arguably easier) than trying to force a country’s laws on a website that has no presence in said country, though.
But it is largely my point: Ofcom has the power to make that ask of ISPs, but rather than doing so and solving its 4chan/KF problem, it’s trying to instead make websites that have no UK presence play by UK law in a bizarre attempt at becoming the global speech police. Ofcom should have geoblocked the sites from the get-go and been done with it; why it didn’t (and still hasn’t) is the entire reason I asked my question.
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You miss my point (yet again). They have jurisdiction to order things of companies located in the UK. That’s why I suggested banning, because that can be effectuated by ordering UK ISPs to block the sites. That’s DIFFERENT than ordering a remedy from a company with no local representation.
I thought that was fairly obvious.
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I get the distinction you’re making (and why), what I’m trying to say is that sovereign countries don’t see it that way, at least jurisdictionally. From a lot of sovereign’s perspective, if a sovereign has jurisdiction for the former, it has it for the latter. They don’t look at their power only in terms of someone/something with local representation/presence. You made a similar point when it came to Brazil messing with Twitter (not quite the same, since they had some local presence and representation).
From a sovereignty perspective, it’s not any different than say, charging Russian GRU members with election interference knowing they’ll never be enforced because they’re never going to leave Russia. It’s the same principle. If it affects their citizens, sovereigns are going to claim a say in it, even if it’s symbolic.
Practically speaking it’s a moot point since it’s unenforceable anyway. Eventually they will have to block. (With the edge case being if there is any personal liability, and someone accidentally enters the UK and gets nabbed)
It’s obvious that you think they’re different, and why. It’s not obvious why the UK would see it that way.
I get why you don’t like it, because it goes against the idea of an open internet that goes above borders. But you’re suggesting they give up a piece of their sovereignty (granted, a largely symbolic one). And they’re clearly not going to be interested in that?
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Well, that sucks for them. But other than the fact that UK citizens can access 4chan or KF, neither 4chan nor KF have a tangible presence in the UK. Ofcom’s only legitimate option to stopping sites that break UK law but don’t have a UK presence is ISP-level geoblocking. Or would you prefer to see sites in the United States kowtowing to UK law only because people in the UK can access those sites and Ofcom doesn’t like that?
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And yet they’re pushing so hard with the other-than-legitimate options that entities with no “tangible presence in the UK” are fighting back. If Ofcom really couldn’t do anything, wouldn’t those entities just be ignoring the threats, or maybe laughing at them?
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It’s not just whether it’s legitimate, it’s the only enforceable one. It has no other choice.
This is like Russia fining Google for $20 decillion.
No. Luckily, it isn’t happening, and Ofcom has no way to make it happen. That fact matters. If Ofcom could enforce what it wanted in the U.S., that’d be a very big problem.
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The one thing you can rely on Arianity for is for them to pop up with irrational lies defending bad legislation.
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I don’t support the OSA. One can acknowledge that a country has a sovereign right to do something, while also acknowledging the thing it’s choosing to do with it is stupid/bad. (Similarly, one doesn’t have to make up things about them being scared to censor to acknowledge it’s stupid/bad, when they pretty clearly do not give a shit)
This is not anymore complicated than supporting someone’s right to free speech even if they’re using that right to say something stupid. Part of that type of right, is the right to be an idiot. An analogous sort of dynamic happens with sovereignty.
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Why do you always get everything so badly wrong, censorship shill?
I think it’s simple us based websites are protected by section 230 the first amendment the are not regulated by ofcom or any UK government law
Maybe offcom did not hear about the revolution where Americans fought for independence from the yoke of the British government
Maybe search declaration of independence Washington on google
Ofcom has no jurisdiction in America or Poland or china or anywhere outside Britain
As far as I know
There’s no subscription option for 4chan
Meta and google may opt to comply with UK law as they provide services fo UK customers with youtube and social media
4chan is not asking for money for UK citizens you have to choose to visit 4chan or not
Even if 4 chan is an awful site They have the same free speech rights under section 230 and the first amendment as the new York times or Techdirt
Remember I said nothing when they came for the Jews because I was not a jew
Once one group gives up the right to free speech everyone is at risk of tyranny
Hypocrisy
Doesn’t the US government have a long track record of acting like the world police?
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Yes, such is the hypocrisy of 4chan, being the US government invading places.
They cab ban commercial VPN servicsj but not the VPN protocol itself, since it is needed for secure remot accesst to networks
That is why restrictions in Iran, China, Italy and the UAE only cover public VPNs
Where i live the apartments here are marketing to Britons who want to park a computer in the USA and echo off that.
They are looking at making bucks off rich Britons who want to evade the new censorship regime in Britain
A computer parked here in CaLifonria is not subjsct to British law, even if the tenant is a British citizen.The managemment company is not subject to prosecutiom in Britain for renting to renting to any British citizen who rents a unit for the purpose of parking a computer in their unit to evade censorship in Britain,
British law does not apply in California.
its kind of moot
If a company doesnt have a local presence such as offices, workers, or bank accounts, then the country has no power to enforce any court order. They can say they are fining them, but its not going to be possible to collect it.
IANAL but I think 4chan and kiwi could have just ignored the email, but perhaps they think its worth a few bucks if they can get a US court to embarrass the UK court.
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No it’s not, he sold 4chan years ago.
…oh wait, you meant—
Re: Yes and no...
Yes and no. This would mean then, that anyone associated with that site risks prosecution and imprisonment should they happen to end up in UK jurisdiction. Perhaps, too, they may be subject to an international arrest warrant if they travel to the wrong country. Better to have a clear ruling that the law should not, could not apply. Such a ruling might carry more weight and encourage US diplomatic intervention should any consequences arise. (…Might!)
So…they’re heroes of internet freedom. STFU, I don’t even want you defending my 1A rights, you’re doing it wrong.
From the “The worst people you know just made a great point” department
A Simple Test
It seems to me the jurisdictional issue can be solved with a simple test – does a person within the jurisdiction – ie. a UK resident – have to make an overt direct specific act, an intentional attempt to access the data that is outside the control of the UK? Then it seems to me the onus is on the government of the UK to either block access or prosecute the UK resident who made such an action. This is not like a billboard on a highway, or junk mail sent specifically to someone that shows up uninvited in their mailbox. UK residents who do not want to see these sites have a simple remedy – they just don’t.
If the UK wants to stop its citizens from committing that act – that is something completely within the jurisdiction of the UK.
But instead, they want to play the 800-pound gorilla. Sorry, that role is taken by the USA.
Mike, I really enjoy most of your work but, as a UK lawyer who specialises in the OSA, there are a few inaccuracies in this article that need pointing out here:
wahhhh
JUST BECAUSE YOU FIGHT FOR FREEDOM WHEN NO ONE ELSE DOES DOESNT MAKE YOU A FREEDOM FIGHTER