Ben Franklin Was All About Content Moderation

from the its-your-own-damn-printing-press dept

Well, here’s a weird one. I was going through the various amicus briefs filed in support of the governments of Texas and Florida’s ability to tell websites that they must host speech that violates their rules, and, damn, there are some ridiculous ones (more posts coming on that front soon…). However, one of them — which I’m not even going to bother linking to — had this bizarre passage trying to argue that founding father Ben Franklin supported “common carrier” laws for owners of printing presses.

This… struck me as very odd. I did a search on the quote in the brief, and found it was also quoted on the website of a sketchy nonsense peddling think tank making the same argument. But the whole thing sounded quite silly, so I decided to dig into the full quote (not the partial, extracted version) used by nonsense peddlers trying to pretend that social media can be a common carrier.

If you want to understand all the many, many reasons why it makes no sense to call websites common carriers, I covered that a while ago. The shortest version of the argument, though, is that throughout the history of common carriage, it’s always been about temporary service, most of which is “carrying” something (people, cargo, data) from point A to point B, and then being done with it. Even public access laws are about letting people in for a short period of time.

But, with websites and social media, there’s a hosting aspect — which goes on in perpetuity. And that makes no sense at all for a “common carrier.” You have to allow them to host something… forever? What?

Anyway, let’s get back to Ben Franklin. The quote that’s being passed around, misleadingly, is from his Autobiography which is very much in the public domain these days. And, read in context, it sure sounds like someone who supports the rights of private property owners to refuse to promote and distribute works of people they feel are up to no good:

In the conduct of my newspaper, I carefully excluded all libelling and personal abuse, which is of late years become so disgraceful to our country. Whenever I was solicited to insert anything of that kind, and the writers pleaded, as they generally did, the liberty of the press, and that a newspaper was like a stage-coach, in which any one who would pay had a right to a place, my answer was, that I would print the piece separately if desired, and the author might have as many copies as he pleased to distribute himself, but that I would not take upon me to spread his detraction; and that, having contracted with my subscribers to furnish them with what might be either useful or entertaining, I could not fill their papers with private altercation, in which they had no concern, without doing them manifest injustice. Now, many of our printers make no scruple of gratifying the malice of individuals by false accusations of the fairest characters among ourselves, augmenting animosity even to the producing of duels; and are, moreover, so indiscreet as to print scurrilous reflections on the government of neighboring states, and even on the conduct of our best national allies, which may be attended with the most pernicious consequences. These things I mention as a caution to young printers, and that they may be encouraged not to pollute their presses and disgrace their profession by such infamous practices, but refuse steadily, as they may see by my example that such a course of conduct will not, on the whole, be injurious to their interests.

The ridiculous amicus brief argues that this is Ben Franklin supporting that printers are a “common carrier” who should expect to print whatever people want. But, it’s hard to read that full quote as anything like that at all.

Franklin is clearly stating that printers have no obligation to print whatever customers want, and certainly not to put it next to other content they do support. In fact, he’s suggesting that they should refuse to do so, and actually seems to suggest that “augmenting animosity” through the use of their printing presses is not a noble pursuit.

Indeed, this quote seems to make the very point that websites are making in this case: that when it’s your printing press you get to decide what you print, what you distribute, and how. The states’ argument is literally the reverse of this. They think they can force the printing presses (websites) to not just print whatever speech the government wants them to print, but also to host it in perpetuity.

And that’s true even if (or, in the case of Texas and Florida, especially if) the intent of that speech is “personal abuse” and “augmenting animosity.”

But any actual reading of Franklin in context suggests he wishes printers chose “not to pollute their presses and disgrace their profession by such infamous practices.” Instead, he suggests they moderate — that they “refuse steadily.”

It sure sounds like Ben Franklin would support the right of private websites to choose to do what they wanted with their own printing presses, and never to be mandated by law to have to be forced into such “infamous practices.”

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Comments on “Ben Franklin Was All About Content Moderation”

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That One Guy (profile) says:

So long as you ignore what he actually said though he totally agreed!

Nothing like misquoting a founding father and claiming that he held a position he pretty explicitly opposed, in this case that platforms like printers and now social media should be obligated if not forced to print/post anything people want them to to show just how utterly lacking in merit the arguments presented by anti-first amendment crowd are.

Much like anti-230 arguments it would seem that either there are no honest and/or coherent arguments for forcing platforms to host speech they don’t want to or the supporters of such an idea have yet to present one.

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Koby (profile) says:

We Ink It and You Hand It Out

…my answer was, that I would print the piece separately if desired, and the author might have as many copies as he pleased to distribute himself, but that I would not take upon me to spread his detraction; and that, having contracted with my subscribers to furnish them with what might be either useful or entertaining, I could not fill their papers with private altercation…

It sounds like Ben Franklin was keenly aware of the difference between publisher and platform. His newspaper was a publisher, but his printing press was not.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re:

Point to where Ben Franklin argued that printing presses have to provide service if offered money. Should you be able to walk into a store, put cash on the counter, take an apple, and walk out? A business transaction requires the consent of both parties.

And you won’t care, but First Amendment rights apply to printing press operators just as they apply to whatever your category of “publishers” is.

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MrWilson (profile) says:

Re:

You’re confusing his willingness to print something with which he disagrees for money for a belief that printers should be forced to print anything anyone wants printed for money. The first is still a recognition of his right to moderate his practice. The second is authoritarian.

sumgai (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2

A newspaper is a publication.

True, as far as it goes.

A platform is an arbitrary word with no relevance at all.

Absolutely incorrect. The word ‘platform’ is a reference to “where one stands on a given topic”. In the days of old (when I was first brought to life), people of like mindedness composed platforms that contained planks. These planks were statements of belief in how the platform should be assembled and then used. The real-world analogy really should not escape you, and I don’t wish to elucidate any further, thank you.

And here we actually do have a dichotomy, wherein the newspaper is a method for the dissemination of information, i.e. a publication, but as it is controlled (or moderated, if one prefers), by at least one human being, it becomes also a platform in that the controller is permitting, even encouraging, some content, and actively discouraging other content. That’s the controller’s statement of beliefs, and the publication of those beliefs is the controller’s platform.

Since this all seems to be overly complicated for even some TD contributors that I respect, I’m gonna simplify it for everyone:

Franklin said he’d consider taking money for printing things he might dislike, but he didn’t flatly state that he’d print anything and everything that came his way. He went on to state further that he would not besmirch his personal reputation, nor that of the newspaper, by inserting into it material he considered to be antithetical to the public’ best interests.

Argue away with that, be my guest. But since push will soon come to shove, I suggest that you wait and see what the court’s opinion has to say. Might be enlightening, who knows.

Arijirija says:

Re: Re: Re:3

Anyone who’s paid any attention to the history of newspapers, knows that news was just one of their stocks-in-trade, opinion being another, with advertisement being a third. That’s why there were so many newspapers once upon a time – conservatives versus liberals versus socialists versus …

And Benjamin Franklin, being one of those newspaper proprietors, had very firm beliefs in what and what was not, appropriate for him to publish. And it being his newspaper, it followed his position, not anyone else’s.

Mamba (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3

Shit man, that wasn’t a particularly coherent argument, but again the word platform is complete nonsense. A newspaper is a publication.

Your definition of platform absolutely irrelevant because a printing press is an inanimate object. It has no particular preference on things. The operator may, but that doesn’t make them a platform…that’s just weird.

And no, the ruling won’t be enlightening. There’s no possible way of forcing someone to carry another’s content without violating the first amendment. So when the inevitable ruling comes none of the people who are arguing for it will learn a damn thing.

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glenn says:

This is the common “quoting” tactic of these people.

Ben said: “Do not do this.”
They say–quoting Ben they claim: “Ben said: ‘Do this.'”

Sure it’s a “quote” of Ben’s words… just leaving out other words in order to change the meaning entirely. This is what most people would call: lying. (They think no one will ever go and check the original quote? [I guess they themselves always simply believe everything they’re told if it’s what they wanted to hear in the first place, so they expect the same of others.])

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re:

“Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition, to wit: There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect.”

They know exactly what they are doing, they are simply as dishonest and immoral as their child-molesting messiah Trump

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re:

Wrong, net neutrality means you can publish via your own blog etc. Also, content moderation is important to the freedom of speech, by creating spaces where people feel free to speak, and avoiding the takeover of a platform by those who are the most persistent, and shout the loudest in an effort to force to force people to go along with their speech.

Everybody who want to limit a sites ability to moderate is a person who want to be able to for4ce their views onto everybody else. Go build you own blog site, and your own audience and stop complaining that other people will try to stop you hijacking their site and audience.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:

“Also, content moderation is important to the freedom of speech, by creating spaces where people feel free to speak, and avoiding the takeover of a platform by those who are the most persistent, and shout the loudest in an effort to force to force people to go along with their speech.”

Thank you for clarifying my point by showing exactly how moderation is of equal importance to net neutrality in the fight for free speech.

ECA (profile) says:

Personal Comment

“not fill their papers with private altercation, in which they had no concern, without doing them manifest injustice.”

The Point made is about Personal Comments. Comments with No backing except what 1 person wishes to Say to other Persons, State, gov.

And its one even this site tends to balance. NO personal Direct comments.

the Biggest difference between the newspaper and the internet, tends to be Interaction and discussion.(yelling, bitching, pissing people off) and every other form and way to Impress each other.
Having a newspaper, have an argument, back and forth would be Totally funny. But then others would try to jump in and Make comments and Make things a TOTAL MESS.

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MrWilson (profile) says:

Re:

I found one pretty quickly using the keywords: amicus brief texas florida social media ben franklin

It does appear to be as Mike has described. It’s from a conservative think tank basically arguing that Ben Franklin was actually saying his newspaper was like a stagecoach and that he only opposed publishing illegal content.

My reading of the quotation from the autobiography was that Franklin was saying that the people petitioning for publication were saying it was like a stagecoach and Franklin was saying it wasn’t because he retained the right to refuse to publish whatever he wanted.

It also does a bad job of pretending that because some printers were also postmasters who refused to distribute their competitor’s publication and Franklin criticized this practice, it meant Franklin thought printers should all be agnostic and unmoderating. But it only really says that postmasters shouldn’t be biased and printers aren’t inherently postmasters. That argument would be better suited to a scenario like Gmail refusing to accept email from a hotmail email address.

Just that fact that the brief is from a conservative think tank should usually be more than enough to assume the argument is a disingenuous attempt to support corporate and conservative interests.

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Anonymous Coward says:

It sounds like newspapers were the generic speech platforms of Franklin’s day; people would pay newspapers to have their articles published, and many of the papers didn’t censor content based on viewpoint the way Franklin did and wanted others to do, but treated their papers as a “stage-coach”, where if you paid the fare, you got a ride. Instead, Franklin thought of his paper as a publication that needed to be curated for his readers based on his own opinions about was libelous, worthwhile, and so forth.

So at least some of the other papers acted as “common carriers”, and Franklin’s didn’t. (And unlike internet hosting, there was no issue of permanent content storage.) It sounds like the arguments haven’t changed in a few hundred years. Franklin, like many others then and since, seems to have believed that freedom of the press was for those who owned a press.

Freedom of speech is hard. And it wasn’t any easier at the founding than it is now. It took less than ten years from the establishment of the Constitution for freedom of speech to be subverted by the Alien and Sedition Acts. It takes courage and determination to stand up for the right of speech that you hate to be spoken, and most people aren’t up to the task.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re:

It sounds like newspapers were the generic speech platforms of Franklin’s day; people would pay newspapers to have their articles published, and many of the papers didn’t censor content based on viewpoint the way Franklin did and wanted others to do, but treated their papers as a “stage-coach”, where if you paid the fare, you got a ride.

The above argument is made by someone who has no knowledge of history, ie the disingenuous Hyman who’ll happily substitute fact with beliefs divorced from reality.

Almost every newspaper in Franklin’s time refused to publish pieces they didn’t agree with, this is a historical fact. Larger newspapers was highly partisan when it came to politics, and that alone determined what they choose to publish. There were other newspapers that would print anything that would sell copies, and they were the equivalent of todays sensationalist news but worse because they would print things that had no basis in truth, and viewpoints that has no basic in truth aren’t viewpoints, they are lies – something you are intimately familiar with.

TL;DR: Your “it sounds” is you choosing false beliefs over facts, directly ignoring the evidence in front of your eyes. And it also illustrates that your beliefs directly contradicts the actual foundational values of the 1A that Franklin was involved in crafting.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re:

“It sounds like newspapers were [commonly treated as] the generic speech platforms of Franklin’s day; people would pay newspapers to have their articles published, and many of the papers didn’t censor content based on viewpoint the way Franklin did and wanted others to do, but treated their papers as a “stage-coach”, where if you paid the fare, you got a ride.”

Better?

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:4

“…it is still the same garbage you always spouted.”

I guess ‘AC’ is one person to you no matter how diverse the opinions presented and regardless of the fact that anyone can post under that banner. Thank you for proving your complete ignorance of the concept of individuality.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:5

The amount of people here on TD using the phrase “generic speech platforms”, claiming moderations is censorship, thinks the concept of common carrier is relevant to social media and newspapers while saying all platforms/publishers should allow every “viewpoint”, is usually one.

Free speech has always been done on the speakers dime, not on anyone else’s. Standing up for free speech isn’t particularly hard, anyone is free to say whatever they want but no one is obligated to facilitate that speech against their wishes because if was otherwise it would be forced speech.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:6

At least two, since I write about large private generic speech platforms and think that these (but not all) platforms should allow all viewpoints, but I think moderation and censorship are different and would not apply common carrier principles to internet platforms that host content.

The point of free speech, as in opposing communism, is the knowledge that people who want to be in control of society are not always right, and it’s important to allow all viewpoints to be aired so that people are not trapped or forced into the ideas accepted as true by the people who would control them, or who have just gotten things wrong. When the public square is owned by a few large private companies, it’s very easy for free speech to be stifled entirely legally and constitutionally, with speakers against the common view chased away so that essentially no one get sto hear what they want to say. In a country that has free speech as a foundational value, these companies have a moral obligation not to do that, no matter how much some people may dislike the viewpoints with which they disagree.

Tanner Andrews (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7 not sure how we enforce this

When the public square is owned by a few large private companies, it’s very easy for free speech to be stifled entirely legally and constitutionally […] In a country that has free speech as a foundational value, these companies have a moral obligation not to do that

I am not sure how we enforce such a ``moral obligation”. But perhaps that is not really an issue.

Initially, we should note that it is not really a public square if it is owned by a company which gets to control or operate it. If we can require the company to allow [whichever group I dislike] to march there, then we have taken at least one of the sticks from the owner’s bundle of rights.

Second, if it is really a public square, we tax everyone to maintain it, and whoever gets there in the morning with their soap box gets to stand on said box and orate. If the square is owned and operated by a private entity, then that is not necessarily the rule. Their money, their square, their choice who gets hosted. I do not get to pass out Pepsi adverts on the front lawn of the Coca Cola company.

Third, I am not sure I see a real distinction for large companies, either. Scale it down: in my living room we do not allow disfavored groups to visit, eat my food, or drink my beer. If you think it should be otherwise, buy the living room and tax everyone for its operation.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:8

We enforce moral obligations in the usual way – point out bad behavior and encourage the people behaving badly to change. Or take the drastic action, as Elon Musk did, of purchasing the company from its miscreant owners.

The large private generic speech platforms are public squares because that’s how the people using them treat them. The fact that the private owners can restrict speech based on viewpoint is the problem we should be trying to solve. You are just pointing out the obvious when you say those companies can do that.

The difference between large and small platforms is that the small ones are usually dedicated to specific topics and specific points of view. As resident idiot Stone likes to say, a site dedicated to supporting people with the trans delusion is not going to want to allow the viewpoint that people can only ever be the sex of their bodies. The large platforms have no such specificity, and that’s how they are treated by their users.

Your tax idea might actually be promising. Perhaps the government might give a tax break to platforms that promise not to censor opinions based on viewpoint when they moderate user-generated content. Offer a carrot rather than the unconstitutional stick of forcing them to host content they don’t want.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:9

We enforce moral obligations in the usual way – point out bad behavior and encourage the people behaving badly to change.

You’ve made it clear that your “enforcement” would be perpetual and would effectively force someone into your idea of “proper behavior” so the “enforcement” of which you speak might come to an end. But that’s not “enforcement”⁠—that’s harassment.

The large private generic speech platforms are public squares

Only in a colloquial sense. In the legal sense, they’re still privately owned businesses, which means they have the right to choose what speech they will host and what speech they will ban.

The fact that the private owners can restrict speech based on viewpoint is the problem we should be trying to solve.

That’s only a “problem” if you think two things:

  1. Those owners shouldn’t have the right to decide what speech will be hosted on their platforms.
  2. “The Holocaust was a good thing, actually” is a viewpoint that “large generic speech platforms” (🙄) must host.

The difference between large and small platforms is that the small ones are usually dedicated to specific topics and specific points of view.

Not…really? I mean, yes, some small platforms are typically dedicated to a specific subject and have rules against off-topic speech. But that’s not always the case⁠—the Mastodon instance I’m on, for example, has no such rules. Smaller platforms can be “generic speech platforms” (🙄); the difference, at least to you, is that those platforms should be able to retain their rights of free speech and association until they hit some nebulous, subjective, and wholly arbitrary point at which they lose those rights.

a site dedicated to supporting [trans] people … is not going to want to allow [anti-trans viewpoints]

Yes. And?

The large platforms have no such specificity, and that’s how they are treated by their users.

Except the large platforms do tend to have rules against bigoted speech⁠—and harassment, for that matter. That those rules are unevenly enforced is largely (but by no means wholly) irrelevant.

Perhaps the government might give a tax break to platforms that promise not to censor opinions based on viewpoint when they moderate user-generated content.

And perhaps that tax break might survive a lawsuit that claims such a tax break infringes upon the First Amendment by effectively bribing companies into giving up their right of association and harming companies that refuse. But I wouldn’t bet on it⁠—just like I wouldn’t bet on the government passing such an obviously unconstitutional tax break in the first place.

That One Guy (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:10 'That contradicts my claim so it doesn't exist'

Except the large platforms do tend to have rules against bigoted speech⁠—and harassment, for that matter. That those rules are unevenly enforced is largely (but by no means wholly) irrelevant.

It’s amazing how many of their arguments depend in large part if not entirely on pretending that TOS’ don’t exist.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:10

And that’s why we need freedom of speech. There is no question that men can never be women and that people are only ever the sex of their bodies. But a host of insane woke gender ideologues have forced their madness into the public left-wing sphere as accepted wisdom. Without the freedom to state that this is a lie, said lie will fester for much longer than it should, just as Lysenkoism did under communism. The lie will never be true, because reality never changes regardless of what people believe, but it will cause damage until it is finally abandoned to the ash heap of history.

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That One Guy (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:10

Please try to refrain from blaming their bigoted assholery and denial of reality on a mental illness, people with actual mental illnesses are already stigmatized enough for things they cannot control, they don’t deserve to be lumped in with someone who chooses to be a genitalia-obsessed, perverted bigot.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:7

and it’s important to allow all viewpoints to be aired …..

So long as you have a place to post your words, you are putting them out where people can see them. What you want is the antithesis to free speech, as it allow people with strong opinions to exercise the hecklers charter by barging in on every conversation they disagree with. Indeed you enable what you say you oppose, and that is allowing some viewpoints to become dominant, because their supporters will not allow anybody to discuss alternatives without them barging in and disrupting the conversation.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7

I write about large private generic speech platforms

You can’t even define what a “large generic speech platform” is with any sense of objectivity, since “large” and “generic” will always be subjective and you’re really only interested in enforcing that position on Twitter (and maybe Facebook). Also: Don’t think I didn’t notice that you added “private” to that bullshit until after I repeatedly hammered you on the fact that platforms like Twitter are privately owned and operated.

[I] think that these (but not all) platforms should allow all viewpoints

If social media services of any kind are “public squares”, as you and your ilk keep insisting that they are, for what reason should only the biggest platforms be forced⁠—either by law or by endless harassment⁠—to “allow all viewpoints” while all the smaller platforms escape that “moral obligation”?

The point of free speech, as in opposing communism, is the knowledge that people who want to be in control of society are not always right, and it’s important to allow all viewpoints to be aired so that people are not trapped or forced into the ideas accepted as true by the people who would control them, or who have just gotten things wrong.

“The Holocaust was a morally righteous act” is a viewpoint. Do you seriously believe Twitter has an obligation of any kind to host any speech (and any person) what expresses that viewpoint?

When the public square is owned by a few large private companies, it’s very easy for free speech to be stifled entirely legally and constitutionally

And yet, the public square isn’t owned to that degree. Donald Trump proved as much when he found other ways to put his speech on the Internet after being banned from…well, pretty much every social media service that matters, really. Twitter, Facebook, YouTube, Instagram, and TikTok are not “the public square”⁠—regardless of how much you wish they were so you could justify your desire to endlessly harass their owners into giving in to your demands for their behavior.

speakers against the common view chased away so that essentially no one get sto hear what they want to say

I repeat: “The Holocaust was a morally righteous act” is a viewpoint. Do you seriously believe Twitter has an obligation of any kind to host any speech (and any person) what expresses that viewpoint?

In a country that has free speech as a foundational value, these companies have a moral obligation not to do that

No privately owned business in the United States has any obligation⁠—ethical, moral, and especially legal⁠—to host, distribute, or express speech with which they disagree. The “legal” part held true in the Masterpiece Cakeshop case, the Azucar Bakery case, the Hands-On Originals case, and that recent case before SCOTUS with the anti-gay website designer. To force someone (either by lawsuits, violence, harassment, or threats thereof) to express speech with which they disagree is to violate their civil rights. If your morals and ethics tell you to do that so you can put your speech on someone else’s property without their willing consent, your morals and ethics need some serious fixing.

no matter how much some people may dislike the viewpoints with which they disagree

Social media services that don’t start out as Nazi bars generally don’t want to turn into Nazi bars, so the owners of those services do their best to prevent people from turning a given service into a Nazi bar. The owners of those services know that allowing all speech would be akin to putting up an invitation for Nazis to come in and exploit the fact that no rules exist to keep them out. You might think it’s fine for Twitter to host speech that maligns Jews, lionizes Nazis, and celebrates the Holocaust⁠—but most people would consider that a point against the (tattered and flaming remains of the) reputation of Twitter.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re:

If you stop supporting free speech when you come across speech that you well and truly hate, then you have never supported free speech at all. Seeing how you behave in that context will clarify in your own mind whether you are a censor or not, and will also clarify that in the minds of the people who are watching you.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re:

newspapers were the generic speech platforms of Franklin’s day

Newspapers haven’t ever operated like platforms such as Twitter. As for “generic speech platforms”: That phrase means nothing, least of all in this discussion.

people would pay newspapers to have their articles published, and many of the papers didn’t censor content based on viewpoint the way Franklin did and wanted others to do

Even if Franklin printed the content, he didn’t distribute it. And even if Franklin chose to print the content, he had no obligation⁠—yes, including your oh-so-precious “moral obligation”⁠—to print any content if he didn’t want to print it. To argue otherwise would be to argue that someone with a platform must print/host/distribute speech in violation of their First Amendment–protected rights of speech and association. “I’m not going to [print/host/distribute] this speech for you because I think it’s awful” is a decision they get to make despite your desire to endlessly harass them into compliance with your demands for their behavior.

at least some of the other papers acted as “common carriers”

No newspaper has ever been, or will ever be, a common carrier.

Franklin, like many others then and since, seems to have believed that freedom of the press was for those who owned a press.

The printing press owners still had the freedom to decide whether to print someone’s speech through that printing press. Even if someone offered to pay for a printing, that didn’t guarantee them a printing of their speech. No one who owns private property⁠—and a printing press is private property⁠—can be forced to print, host, or distribute speech via that property; to say otherwise is to disrespect both the First Amendment and private property rights.

It takes courage and determination to stand up for the right of speech that you hate to be spoken

…which certainly explains why you waited for a good long while to finally say you’re against LGBTQ-focused book bans in school and public libraries, and why you still talk about some imaginary “moral obligation” for platforms to host your speech, and why you still insist that your plan to endlessly harass trans people/platform owners/literally anyone into behaving as you want them to behave isn’t actually an infringement upon their rights. You may have determination, but you’re no example of courage.

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That One Guy (profile) says:

Re: Re:

…which certainly explains why you waited for a good long while to finally say you’re against LGBTQ-focused book bans in school and public libraries, and why you still talk about some imaginary “moral obligation” for platforms to host your speech, and why you still insist that your plan to endlessly harass trans people/platform owners/literally anyone into behaving as you want them to behave isn’t actually an infringement upon their rights. You may have determination, but you’re no example of courage.

They don’t even have that if they’re still arguing in favor of the bigots, as giving lip-service to LGBTQ content costs them nothing and means even less if they also whole-heartedly support the people who would drive LGBTQ people off the platforms they want to claim should be open to all and into silence and/or death.

Someone doesn’t need to directly take actions to silence LGBTQ people in order to do so, all they need to do is support those that will do it in their stead.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re:

As always, you argue with illusory versions of me who say what you want them to say so that you can win arguments with yourself.

I “waited a good long time” to say that I’m against LGB✂️TQ book bans because no one here is in favor of them, and I focus my posts explaining to wrong people here how they are wrong. I am, and have always been, against all book bans everywhere, including Amazon’s refusal to sell When Harry Became Sally.

Criticizing public people and companies is never an infringement on their rights. No one has the right to be free from criticism, and their tears claiming that people are being mean to them hold no water. No one has the right to force their critics to stop their criticism, no matter how long that criticism has been going on. Of course woke ideologues don’t want free speech that opposes them to exist. A boot stamping on the face of humanity is perfectly fine with them as long as it’s a left boot.

People are free to disregard their moral obligations, and other people are free to shame them for doing that. People are free to claim that some moral obligation for them doesn’t exist, and other people are free to criticize them for that.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

I “waited a good long time” to say that I’m against LGBTQ book bans because no one here is in favor of them

That doesn’t make any goddamn sense, my dude. If you were against those bans, saying so would basically have been⁠—in D&D parlance⁠—a free action. Then again, it doesn’t really matter what you say on the matter when you do that stupid anti-queer “drop the T” bullshit with the LGBTQ initialism; being against anti-queer book bans while expressing an anti-queer position is both hypocritical and paradoxical.

I am, and have always been, against all book bans everywhere

And yet…

including Amazon’s refusal to sell When Harry Became Sally

…you not only seem to care more about anti-queer books than books by/about/featuring queer people, you can’t even bring up an actual example of a book ban.

Criticizing public people and companies is never an infringement on their rights.

Your plan to endlessly harass people into compliance with your idea of “proper behavior” would be, though. You have a right to speak; you don’t have a right to make others listen to you, act as you want them to, or endlessly harass them into acting a certain way.

Of course woke ideologues don’t want free speech that opposes them to exist. A boot stamping on the face of humanity is perfectly fine with them as long as it’s a left boot.

Your more extremist allies in the anti-queer movement are perfectly fine with expressing the desire to make sure all the people they hate shouldn’t exist. They won’t stop at speech, they won’t stop with trans people, and they won’t stop with queer people as a whole. Those fascists with whom you’ve aligned yourself will absolutely attack anyone who isn’t queer but expresses even the slightest bit of what those fascists consider “queerness”⁠—and by “attack”, I don’t mean “criticize”, I mean “physically assault and possibly even murder”.

One of the core tenets of anti-queerness is a desire to enforce gender essentialism, gender stereotypes, and “traditional” standards of beauty. If a cis woman doesn’t “look cis” to anti-queer assholes, she’ll be attacked just as if she were a trans woman. The point is to make people exhibit “proper behavior”⁠—i.e., to make people behave according to conservative gender ideals. And if those people won’t behave that way? That’s when the physical violence happens.

You can denounce the violence and the harassment all you want, but you threw your hat in with those extremists from the first time you expressed their bigotry and owned it as your own. Nothing you say or do short of a total and unequivocal denouncing of your anti-queer ideology will change this simple reality: You’ve aligned yourself with violent anti-queer fascists.

People are free to disregard their moral obligations

Under your logic, if I start an open-to-the-public Mastodon server, I have to allow pro-Nazi speech as part of what you would call my “moral obligation” to free speech. But who went and made you the arbiter and enforcer of my “moral obligations”⁠—or any- and everyone else’s, for that matter? Because I didn’t see a memo from God about that in my email.

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