Has Wired Given Up On Fact Checking? Publishes Facts-Optional Screed Against Section 230 That Gets Almost Everything Wrong

from the that's-not-how-any-of-this-works dept

What is going on at Wired Magazine? A few years ago, the magazine went on a bit of a binge with some articles that completely misrepresented Section 230. While I felt those articles were extraordinarily misleading, at least they seemed to mostly live in the world of facts.

Its latest piece goes so far beyond all facts that it’s on another plane of existence, where facts don’t exist and vibes rule the world. Wired has published an article that either wasn’t fact-checked or edited, or if it was, whoever is responsible failed at their job. The piece is by Jaron Lanier and Allison Stanger. Jaron Lanier being wrong about things online is nothing new. It’s kinda become his brand. Stanger, apparently, has a new book coming out entitled “Who Elected Big Tech?” and based on the overview of a course she taught under the same name, it does not inspire confidence:

An unprecedented shift in the balance of power between multinational industry and national governments has been a necessary condition for these new challenges. How else could a freely elected American president be silenced by Google, Twitter, and Facebook? How else could Facebook’s Instagram be exposed as knowingly causing harm to teenagers without government penalty? How did America reach the point where Big Tech has the capacity to mount foreign policies?

I mean, we’ve discussed all three of those things in great detail on Techdirt, and all of them require a lot more nuance than is presented here. The sites did not “silence” a President. They suspended his account for violating their rules (after years of bending over backwards to pretend he did not violate their rules). And it did not silence him in any way. He was still able to speak, and whenever he did, his words were immediately conveyed on those same platforms.

And the whole “knowingly causing harm to teenagers” thing is, yet again, ridiculously misleading. Meta did internal research to try to find out if it was causing harm in order to stop causing harm. It researched 24 categories, in which 23 of them suggested no significant harm, and only one raised concerns, which Facebook’s internal research highlighted so that the company could try to address the harm and minimize it. And the government has been trying to penalize them ever since, but has failed, because the “penalties” are unconstitutional.

Either way, let’s return to this article. The title is “The One Internet Hack That Could Save Everything.” With the provocative subhed: “It’s so simple: Axe 26 words from the Communications Decency Act. Welcome to a world without Section 230.”

Now, we’ve spent the better part of the last 25 years debunking nonsense about Section 230, but this may be the worst piece we’ve ever seen on this topic. It does not understand how Section 230 works. It does not understand how the First Amendment works. It’s not clear it understands how the internet works.

But also, it’s just not well written. I was completely confused about the point that the article is trying to make, and it was only on the third reading that I finally understood the extraordinarily wrong point that is at the heart of the article: that if you got rid of Section 230, websites would have to moderate based on the First Amendment — but also they would magically get rid of harassment and other bad content, but be forced to leave up the good content. It’s magic fairytale thinking that has nothing to do with reality. There’s also some nonsense about privacy and copyright that have nothing to do with Section 230 at all, but the authors seem wholly unaware of that fairly basic fact.

I’m going to skip over the first section of the article, because it’s just confused babble, and move onto some really weird claims about Section 230. Specifically, that it somehow created a business model:

The impact on the public sphere has been, to say the least, substantial. In removing so much liability, Section 230 forced a certain sort of business plan into prominence, one based not on uniquely available information from a given service, but on the paid arbitration of access and influence. Thus, we ended up with the deceptively named “advertising” business model—and a whole society thrust into a 24/7 competition for attention. A polarized social media ecosystem. Recommender algorithms that mediate content and optimize for engagement. We have learned that humans are most engaged, at least from an algorithm’s point of view, by rapid-fire emotions related to fight-or-flight responses and other high-stakes interactions. In enabling the privatization of the public square, Section 230 has inadvertently rendered impossible deliberation between citizens who are supposed to be equal before the law. Perverse incentives promote cranky speech, which effectively suppresses thoughtful speech.

First of all… what? Literally none of that makes sense, nor is any citation or explanation given for what is entirely a “vibes” based argument. Section 230 has nothing to do with the advertising market directly. Advertising existed prior to Section 230 and has been a way to subsidize content going back centuries. It’s unclear how the authors think Section 230 is somehow responsible for internet advertising as a business model, and the article does nothing to clarify why that would be the case. Because it’s just wrong. There is no way to support it.

Second, the claim that “algorithms optimize for engagement” is also simply false. Some algorithms definitely do optimize for engagement. Many do not. Neither the ones that do, nor the ones that don’t, have much (if anything) to do with Section 230. They kinda have to do with capitalism and the demands of investors for returns. That’s not a Section 230 issue at all.

Furthermore, as tons of research keeps showing, if you only optimize for engagement, it just leads to anger and nonsense to the point that it drives both advertisers and users away over time. And that’s why sites like Facebook and YouTube have both spent much of the past decade toning down those algorithms to be less about “engagement,” because they realized it was long-term counterproductive. The idea that algorithms are inherently about engagement is outdated thinking that is at least a decade obsolete.

The idea that algorithms were brought about because of Section 230 is easily debunked by the simple fact that the first company that really focused on algorithmically recommending content to people was not hosting user-generated content, but rather was Netflix, trying to better recommend movies to people (remember that?).

The reason we have algorithms is not Section 230, but because without algorithms there’s so much junk on the internet it’s hard to find what you want. Recommendation algorithms exist because they’re useful and because of the sheer amount of content online.

Taking away Section 230 wouldn’t change that one bit. Because recommendations are inherently First Amendment-protected speech. It’s an opinion.

The authors seem wholly confused about what Section 230 actually does. Like the following paragraph makes no sense at all. It’s in the “not even wrong” category, it so defies explaining how nearly every part of it is wrong.

And then there is the economic imbalance. Internet platforms that rely on Section 230 tend to harvest personal data for their business goals without appropriate compensation. Even when data ought to be protected or prohibited by copyright or some other method, Section 230 often effectively places the onus on the violated party through the requirement of takedown notices. That switch in the order of events related to liability is comparable to the difference between opt-in and opt-out in privacy. It might seem like a technicality, but it is actually a massive difference that produces substantial harms. For example, workers in information-related industries such as local news have seen stark declines in economic success and prestige. Section 230 makes a world of data dignity functionally impossible.

There is no “economic imbalance” in those who use 230. Section 230 protects any interactive computer service or user (everyone always forgets the users) for sharing third-party content. It has protected Techdirt in court, and under no standard anywhere would anyone ever argue that Techdirt has an “economic imbalance.” It has protected people for forwarding emails. It has protected people for retweeting content. It doesn’t just protect big companies.

The discussion about copyright and personal data is not just wrong, but simply, obviously, wholly unrelated to Section 230. Section 230 explicitly exempts intellectual property law. There is no issue whatsoever with copyright-covered content somehow being impacted by Section 230. That’s just not how it works.

The statement that “Section 230 often effectively places the onus on the violated party through the requirement of takedown notices” is even dumber because there are no takedown notices under 230. I’m guessing the authors of the piece probably mean DMCA 512, which is about copyright and does have takedown notices, but that has fuck all to do with Section 230. This is the sort of thing that a fact checker would normally catch. If Wired had one.

Similarly, data protection/privacy laws are unrelated to Section 230. The only times Section 230 comes up in relationship to privacy laws is when state legislatures (hello California!) try to pass a law about speech which they pretend is a privacy law.

Literally nothing in this paragraph makes any sense at all. You have to deliberately work hard to misunderstand Section 230 this badly.

The authors of this piece basically misrepresent Section 230 at every opportunity. They don’t understand what it does and how it works. They blame it for things it has nothing to do with (advertising business models? algorithms?) and then associate it with things very clearly beyond its purview (copyright, takedown notices, and data protection).

Honestly, if Wired had any integrity at all, they’d pull this piece and admit it wasn’t even half-baked yet.

Then, finally, we get to… I guess you’d call it the point of the article? Apparently the authors don’t like content moderation and claim that content moderation is “beholden to the quest for attention and engagement” and I have no idea what that even means. If the concern before was that algorithms were driven by that quest for attention, why would moderation also be driven by that? Isn’t content moderation an attempt to push back on that trend by making sure that content follows rules? Not according to the authors of this article who seem to think the efforts of trust & safety teams to make sure users follow the rules is… somehow driven by attention and engagement?

To date, content moderation has too often been beholden to the quest for attention and engagement, regularly disregarding the stated corporate terms of service. Rules are often bent to maximize engagement through inflammation, which can mean doing harm to personal and societal well-being. The excuse is that this is not censorship, but is it really not? Arbitrary rules, doxing practices, and cancel culture have led to something hard to distinguish from censorship for the sober and well-meaning. At the same time, the amplification of incendiary free speech for bad actors encourages mob rule. All of this takes place under Section 230’s liability shield, which effectively gives tech companies carte blanche for a short-sighted version of self-serving behavior. Disdain for these companies—which found a way to be more than carriers, and yet not publishers—is the only thing everyone in America seems to agree on now.

It’s almost as if the authors have no experience in trust & safety and have never spoken to anyone in trust & safety, yet pretend to understand it. The claim that the rules are “arbitrary” or that enforcing rules has something to do with either “doxing practices” or “cancel culture” suggests people who have never, not once, been in a position where they had to moderate any online conversation.

From there, the piece goes even further off the rails, arguing (for no clear reason) that YouTube is in a post-230 world and that ExTwitter is being destroyed by Section 230. Why? They don’t explain.

In one sense, it’s already happening. Certain companies are taking steps on their own, right now, toward a post-230 future. YouTube, for instance, is diligently building alternative income streams to advertising, and top creators are getting more options for earning. Together, these voluntary moves suggest a different, more publisher-like self-concept. YouTube is ready for the post-230 era, it would seem. (On the other hand, a company like X, which leans hard into 230, has been destroying its value with astonishing velocity.) Plus, there have always been exceptions to Section 230. For instance, if someone enters private information, there are laws to protect it in some cases. That means dating websites, say, have the option of charging fees instead of relying on a 230-style business model. The existence of these exceptions suggests that more examples would appear in a post-230 world.

The alternative business models that YouTube has created, yet again, have nothing to do with Section 230. It’s such a weird, nonsensical point, I’m honestly beginning to wonder if the piece was written about something else entirely, and at the last minute they tried to shove 230 in there. Whether or not you build alternative income streams to advertising is wholly unrelated to Section 230. Again, Techdirt, whose comments are protected by 230, does not make money from advertising (we make money from user support, thank you very much, please support us). Having user support doesn’t put us in a post-230 world, it shows why 230 is so important.

As for ExTwitter, the destruction of its value can easily be placed on one person, not Section 230.

And the line “relying on a 230-style business model” makes no sense. There is no 230-style business model.

All of this seems based on the blatantly incorrect belief that Section 230 encourages an advertising-based business model. But that’s never even been close to correct. I mean, the first big Section 230 case was Zeran v. AOL in which AOL (which made money on subscription fees more than advertising at the time) was found to be protected. And, I mean, Section 230 was written in response to lawsuits against Compuserve and Prodigy, two other subscription-based services.

The idea that 230 creates an advertising or data-based business model is not just ahistorical, it’s provably false.

The article then “returns” to the question of online speech and shows how incredibly confused its authors are:

Let’s return to speech. One difference between speech before and after the internet was that the scale of the internet “weaponized” some instances of speech that would not have been as significant before. An individual yelling threats at someone in passing, for instance, is quite different from a million people yelling threats. This type of amplified, stochastic harassment has become a constant feature of our times—chilling speech—and it is possible that in a post-230 world, platforms would be compelled to prevent it.

Wait, what? Literally three paragraphs earlier you were complaining that content moderation is evil “censorship” driven by “engagement.” Now, you’re saying without Section 230, magically, websites would be “compelled to prevent” harassment.

This gets the law backwards. Under Section 230, websites have the freedom to quickly respond to harassment. That’s what content moderation is. Without Section 230 (as we know from pre-230 cases), it would hinder sites’ ability to do that.

Underpinning all of this — which the authors seem wholly ignorant of — is the way the First Amendment works. The First Amendment in a pre-230 world made it clear that a distributor could only be held liable for speech if (1) they knew about it and (2) the speech violated the law. That means without Section 230, most platforms’ best move would be to avoid knowledge. That means less moderation, not more. It means more harassment, not less.

Also, nearly all “harassment” outside the most extreme cases is protected by the 1st Amendment as well.

It’s almost as if the authors have no idea what they’re talking about.

It is sometimes imagined that there are only two choices: a world of viral harassment or a world of top-down smothering of speech. But there is a third option: a world of speech in which viral harassment is tamped down but ideas are not. Defining this middle option will require some time to sort out, but it is doable without 230, just as it is possible to define the limits of viral financial transactions to make Ponzi schemes illegal.

Lol, what? “Viral harassment is tamped down but ideas are not?” What the fuck do these people think every trust & safety team in the world is doing right now? They’re trying to tamp down harassment, not ideas. And the reason they can do so cleanly, without having to involve lawyers at every move, is because Section 230 protects them in making those decisions.

And then…. it gets dumber.

With this accomplished, content moderation for companies would be a vastly simpler proposition. Companies need only uphold the First Amendment, and the courts would finally develop the precedents and tests to help them do that, rather than the onus of moderation being entirely on companies alone.

No one — and I do mean no one — wants a website where companies can only moderate based on the First Amendment. Such a site would almost immediately turn into harassment, abuse, and garbage central. Most speech is protected under the First Amendment. Very, very, very little speech is not protected. The very “harassment” that the authors complain about literally one paragraph above is almost entirely protected under the First Amendment.

Also, if you could only moderate based on the First Amendment, all online forums would be the same. The wonder of the internet right now is that every online forum gets to set its own rules and moderate accordingly. And that’s because Section 230 allows them to do so without fear of litigation over their choices.

Under this plan, you couldn’t (for example) have a knitting community with a “no politics” rule. You’d have to allow all legal speech. That’s… beyond stupid.

And, as if to underline that the authors, the fact checkers, and the editors, have no idea how any of this works, they throw this in:

The United States has more than 200 years of First Amendment jurisprudence that establishes categories of less protected speech—obscenity, defamation, incitement, fighting words—to build upon, and Section 230 has effectively impeded its development for online expression. The perverse result has been the elevation of algorithms over constitutional law, effectively ceding judicial power.

The first sentence is partially right. There is jurisprudence establishing exceptions to the First Amendment. Though it’s very narrow and very clearly defined. Indeed, the inclusion of “fighting words” in the list of exceptions above shows that the authors are unaware that over the past 50 years the fighting words doctrine has been effectively deprecated as an exception.

It’s also just blatantly, factually, incorrect that 230 has somehow “impeded” the development of First Amendment exceptions. It’s as if the authors are wholly unaware of myriad attempts in the decades since Section 230 went into effect for people to convince courts to establish new exceptions. Most notably was the US v. Stevens, in which the Supreme Court made it clear that it wasn’t really open to adding new exceptions to the First Amendment.

That was the case about “animal crush” videos showing cruelty to animals. The court ruled that it was a violation of the First Amendment to make such videos illegal. And if the Supreme Court is saying that “animal crush” videos are protected by the First Amendment, they seem highly unlikely to include the rando exception for “people were mean to me online!” (I mean, Clarence Thomas might, but he’s not enough).

When the jurisprudential dust has cleared, the United States would be exporting the democracy-promoting First Amendment to other countries rather than Section 230’s authoritarian-friendly liability shield and the sewer of least-common-denominator content that holds human attention but does not bring out the best in us.

Again, this is the opposite of reality. The “sewer of least-common-denominator content” is what you get without 230, when you encourage websites to look the other way to avoid liability for any content. How could the authors not have done the most basic of research to understand this?

In a functional democracy, after all, the virtual public square should belong to everyone, so it is important that its conversations are those in which all voices can be heard. This can only happen with dignity for all, not in a brawl.

And if you take away 230 you get the brawl, because you limit the ability of websites to moderate.

Honestly, this entire article seems based on the wholly backwards belief that getting rid of 230 leads to better content moderation, even as the authors complain about content moderation. They don’t seem to understand any of it.

Section 230 perpetuates an illusion that today’s social media companies are common carriers like the phone companies that preceded them, but they are not. Unlike Ma Bell, they curate the content they transmit to users. We need a robust public conversation about what we, the people, want this space to look like, and what practices and guardrails are likely to strengthen the ties that bind us in common purpose as a democracy. Virality might come to be understood as an enemy of reason and human values. We can have culture and conversations without a mad race for total attention.

Your problem is with the First Amendment, not 230.

Section 230 does not treat websites as common carriers. It’s literally the opposite of that. It’s saying (correctly) that they’re not common carriers, and that they need the right to set rules and enforce them in order to enable “conversations without a mad race for total attention.”

The article then goes off on some (again, nonsensical) tangent about AI, and then once again shows that the authors know nothing about how the First Amendment works:

When the US government said the American public owned the airwaves so that television broadcasting could be regulated, it put in place regulations that supported the common good. The internet affects everyone, so we must devise measures to ensure that our digital-age public discourse is of high quality and includes everyone. In the television era, the fairness doctrine laid that groundwork. A similar lens needs to be developed for the internet age.

The law on this stuff is pretty clear.

The Supreme Court made it clear that broadcast TV and radio could be regulated only because it used public spectrum. It could not (and does not) regulate cable TV or the internet, because they do not.

There’s even more but I need to end this piece before I bang my head on the desk one more time.

The authors do not understand Section 230, the First Amendment, or how content moderation works. Yet they position themselves as experts. They get the law backwards, upside down, and twisted inside out.

Normally, an editor or a fact-checker would maybe catch those things, but apparently Wired will let just anyone spew nonsense on their pages these days. And, yes, I get it that these are complex topics. But they’re also topics where there are dozens of actual experts available who could take one look at the claims in this piece and point out just how wrong almost every confident claim is. I get that Lanier is “internet famous,” but that doesn’t make him worth publishing without someone who actually knows what they’re talking about reviewing his work to call out the myriad factual errors.

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Comments on “Has Wired Given Up On Fact Checking? Publishes Facts-Optional Screed Against Section 230 That Gets Almost Everything Wrong”

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222 Comments
Anonymous Coward says:

Re:

Even worse, WaPo has a front-page story, “Senate poised to pass biggest piece of tech regulation in decades,” which seems to endorse KOSA and totally ignores all of the problems that it will create. (It also ignores the reality that the sponsors of this bill are technologically ignorant and dumb enough to fall for nonsense claims about the “harms” performed by Internet tech companies.)

Wendy M. Grossman (user link) says:

S230

There’s an extraordinary lot of nonsense about S230 around at this time – in the UK, Carole Cadwalladr (the investigative journalist who uncovered Cambridge Analytica) wrote ten days ago that an axe should be taken to S230 (in response to the Congressional hearings). People need to read Jeff Kosseff’s book!

wg

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Anonymous Coward says:

One of the things the authors don’t understand is the concept of a “crowd”, let alone a “Flash Crowd”.

An influencer says, “person X is a bad guy, go send a message to his employer and get him fired.” A sizeable portion of their followers obey. The employer is overwhelmed, and caves in order to continue business. Example. Individually? Free speech. Collectively? Effectively, harassment. … but telling someone to do something that is legal to do, whether you tell one or one million, is still legal.

In the old days, you could rile the villagers into a pitchfork and torch party at the local castle. (In fact, you still can!)

Nowdays? Your “village” may number tens of millions of people. People reading your words and looking for more information can bring down someone’s website.

so it is important that its conversations are those in which all voices can be heard. This can only happen with dignity for all, not in a brawl.

And if you take away 230 you get the brawl, because you limit the ability of websites to moderate.

It’s worse than that. If a group of friends, or even a small group of strangers get together, that’s one kind of conversation. If a large group of strangers get together, that’s an entirely different sort of conversation. Moderation helps the large one be more like the small one, but it cannot truly change the nature of the conversation. You’ll hear the loudest voices, which are often (but not always) the nearest ones (either physically, in meat space, or the ‘logically nearest’, online).

The avalanche has started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote.
– Ambassador Kosh, Babylon 5

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Anonymous Coward says:

Nice!

For those wokies who ask why I keep reading TechDirt, this article is an example. Correct, well-reasoned, important, all good.

It does remain the case that censorship is the act of the censor silencing speech based on viewpoint on platforms the censor controls, and preventing an ex-president of the US from speaking on a platform is absolutely censorship. And the site owner can’t help but do a little drive-by disparagement of Musk. But those are minor cavils in the overall article.

TFG says:

Re:

It does remain the case that censorship is the act of the censor silencing speech based on viewpoint on platforms the censor controls, and preventing an ex-president of the US from speaking on a platform is absolutely censorship.

But, and this is the important thing, it is not coming from government and therefore does not run afoul of the First Amendment. Private entities cannot violate Free Speech rights, because those rights only restrict governmental action.

The reason the discussion becomes “it was censorship” and “it wasn’t censorship” is because everyone is using the term “censorship” to mean “violated First Amendment rights.”

Additionally, you’ll note that Mike doesn’t actually claim that Trump wasn’t censored – there’s a quote from the Wired article that talks about people saying “it wasn’t censorship” and Mike refers back to it, but Mike’s own words in this article don’t ever actually state that Trump wasn’t censored.

The actual claim by Mike in this article is that the President was not silenced.

I mean, we’ve discussed all three of those things in great detail on Techdirt, and all of them require a lot more nuance than is presented here. The sites did not “silence” a President. They suspended his account for violating their rules (after years of bending over backwards to pretend he did not violate their rules). And it did not silence him in any way. He was still able to speak, and whenever he did, his words were immediately conveyed on those same platforms.

“Silenced,” in this context, is a very different thing, used to imply that Trump was prevented from saying anything, to anyone, anywhere. Trump’s ability to communicate continued to exist – he hopped onto Truth Social, continued to make his posts, and all the various news sites and even Twitter accounts continued to repost his stuff and amplify his voice. And, at the time, he still had his Presidential Pulpit from which to give speeches and address the Press.

What the sites did was the equivalent of telling someone to get out of their house – and the ability to tell anyone, whether they are King, President, Senator, Representative, or just your asshole neighbor Jim, to shut up and get out of your house is quintessentially American. (Can’t keep Jim from running his mouth from his own porch, but can sure as hell tell him he can’t run it while sitting on yours.)

All these people trying to take that ability away are acting in extremely anti-American ways.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re:

What the sites did was the equivalent of telling someone to get out of their house – and the ability to tell anyone, whether they are King, President, Senator, Representative, or just your asshole neighbor Jim, to shut up and get out of your house is quintessentially American.

Seriously, the United States fought a whole-ass war to effectively tell the British “go home and go collectively fuck yourselves”. Being able to make someone else leave your property if they piss you off is not only quintessentially American, it’s also a display of two concepts that tend to really piss off right-wing assholes: private property rights and personal autonomy.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re:

Censorship is the act of the censor, silencing opinions based on viewpoint on platforms the censor controls. The ability of the silenced to speak elsewhere is irrelevant. Whether the silencing is legal because it is private or illegal because it is governmental is irrelevant. Censorship does not have to be a violation of the 1st Amendment to be censorship.

Neither is free speech synonymous with the 1st Amendment. As written, the 1st Amendment holds that the people have free speech, an dthat the government may not abridge it. When a private entity abridges the free speech of the people, it is a violation of the principle of free speech even though the people do not have a right to speak freely on the private property.

Wokies were happily basking in the censorship provided by the large private generic speech platforms, and have become unhappy as this censorship is exposed and some platforms stop engaging in it.

TFG says:

Re: Re: Re:

Censorship is the act of the censor, silencing opinions based on viewpoint on platforms the censor controls. The ability of the silenced to speak elsewhere is irrelevant. Whether the silencing is legal because it is private or illegal because it is governmental is irrelevant. Censorship does not have to be a violation of the 1st Amendment to be censorship.

And the article didn’t say it was. I refer you back to my previous post, which already addressed this whole thing.

Neither is free speech synonymous with the 1st Amendment.

This is an inaccurate assertion. The conversations surrounding Free Speech on these platforms are predicated upon a right, i.e. the right to Speak Freely. That right is only conferred by the First Amendment – it does not exist in any other form, and the assumption that it does is the fatal error that people make when talking about Free Speech violations on non-governmental platforms.

As written, the 1st Amendment holds that the people have free speech, and that the government may not abridge it.

Correct.

When a private entity abridges the free speech of the people, it is a violation of the principle of free speech even though the people do not have a right to speak freely on the private property.

If you examine this carefully, you will see that you contradict your own initial point in this sentence. If you didn’t have the right to speak freely on private property, being prevented from doing so by that private property owner does not violate a right – as you just stated, there was no right to be violated in the first place.

The “principle of Free Speech” has only ever been that the government cannot prevent you from speaking. The fatal error that people make when discussing it regarding various internet platforms is to assume that it somehow goes beyond that.

Wokies were happily basking in the censorship provided by the large private generic speech platforms, and have become unhappy as this censorship is exposed and some platforms stop engaging in it.

The issue with your woke views, is that your wokeness doesn’t conform with reality. You’ve gone so woke that you go beyond the bounds of actuality and into what can be called a “waking dream”. I don’t know how to pull you wokies out of it – I can only do my best to mitigate the wokeness spewing forth with truth, and to pray that the good Lord overcome the barriers you’ve set up. May you one day find Jesus.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:2

Freedom of speech is the ability to speak freely. For freedom of speech to work, it is essential that private entities have the right to control what is said on their platforms, otherwise their speech is being compelled. But when people have come to use a platform to speak freely, it is morally wrong for the platform owners to censor the speech of those people, even though they have a right to do so.

The 1st Amendment can constrain the behavior of the government. But it cannot force people to behave morally, since the notion of what is moral varies so widely. In my opinion, it is immoral for a large private generic speech platform to censor opinions based on viewpoint even though the 1st Amendment allows them to do so.

Freedom of speech is far wider than the 1st Amendment (academic freedom, for example). People who say otherwise are looking to commit censorship without being criticized for it. Which is an exercise in futility, because such criticism is unavoidable.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3

when people have come to use a platform to speak freely, it is morally wrong for the platform owners to censor the speech of those people

And if those platforms were actually preventing people from speaking their mind anywhere else on the Internet, you might have a point. As it stands, you are effectively saying that the law should curtail the First Amendment rights of a platform owner⁠—specifically, their free speech and free association rights⁠—to turn the privilege of using that platform into a guaranteed legal right.

it is immoral for a large private generic speech platform to censor opinions based on viewpoint even though the 1st Amendment allows them to do so

Your opinion is both noted and irrelevant. Plenty of right-wing shitpits like Gab and Truth Social banned users for expressing left-wing viewpoints, but I never saw you ding those “generic speech platforms” for being so censorious that they needed to be harassed into compliance with your idea of “proper behavior”.

Freedom of speech is far wider than the 1st Amendment

But without the First Amendment and the legal system that backs it up, freedom of speech would be a privilege practiced only by the rich, the powerful, and the violent. That law gives social media services as much right to boot you for anti-trans speech as it does to let you post anti-trans speech anywhere else on This God Damned Internet. If you can’t stand the notion that your speech isn’t welcome on popular platforms, that’s your problem, and you need to solve it yourself.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:4

Censorship is the act of the censor, silencing opinions based on viewpoint on platforms the censor controls. The ability of the silenced to speak elsewhere is irrelevant.

Any large private generic speech platform that censors opinions based on viewpoint is behaving immorally, whether they censor to the left or to the right. Platforms may state their bias forthrightly and declare that they will not tolerate opposing views, and then they are not generic, and thus don’t have the same obligation not to censor. This is true whether such a platform supports N​a​z​i​s or the t​r​a​n​s-d​e​l​u​d​e​d.

You really are an idiot. Freedom of speech is far wider than the 1st Amendment. That doesn’t mean that the 1st Amendment isn’t good or necessary.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5

Any large private generic speech platform that censors opinions based on viewpoint is behaving immorally

That’s your opinion, and you’re more than welcome to it, but you can’t force the owner of that platform⁠—or anyone else, for that matter⁠—to live up to your expectations of their behavior. That you keep bringing up morality as though your opinion allows you to usurp another person’s civil rights (and acting like your proclamations about “proper behavior” are The Unerring Word of God) changes nothing about that fact.

Platforms may state their bias forthrightly and declare that they will not tolerate opposing views, and then they are not generic

I will thus note⁠—in vain, but still⁠—that the First Amendment applies to all platforms regardless of whatever made-up bullshit qualifier you want to attach to one. A social media service that hosts a wide variety of speech has the exact same protections under the law as a 10-person forum about Mongolian basket-weaving that allows no off-topic posts.

Freedom of speech is far wider than the 1st Amendment.

It really isn’t. To have freedom of speech, we must have freedom from speech⁠—i.e., the freedom to refuse expressing, listening to, or distributing speech. Under your interpretation of “free speech”, the owners of social media services have no freedom from speech, for they must host all legal speech or face consequences ranging from endless harassment to…I’unno, having their First Amendment rights stripped from them? Your whole “viewpoint discrimination” thing is lifted from rules about government interference in speech, so the obvious inference is that while you claim not to want the law involved, you wouldn’t mind the law getting involved to compel the hosting of speech that a service like Twitter would otherwise refuse to host.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7

you want to construe criticism as force

You’ve said before that you will endlessly harass social media service owners until and unless they act in accordance with your ideas for “proper behavior”. You’ve also said the same thing about trans people. For what reason should I construe your explicitly expressed desire to endlessly harass people⁠—with the intent to make them change their behavior so the harassment will end, no less!⁠—as anything other than an attempt to force them into behaving a certain way?

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:8

You want to call criticism harassment and force because you do not want people who are behaving immorally but in ways you like to be criticized. Large private generic speech platforms that censor opinions based on viewpoint should be criticized. People who force their way into single-sex spaces for which their bodies disqualify them should be criticized.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:9

You want to call criticism harassment and force because you do not want people who are behaving immorally but in ways you like to be criticized.

You have literally admitted in the past that you would, if you could, endlessly harass both social media service owners (for moderating in ways you don’t like) and trans people (for existing in ways you don’t like) until the people you chose to harass began exhibiting your idea of “proper behavior”. Yes, I refer to that as harassment and force⁠—because you’re admitting that you would use the threat of endless harassment to force people into compliance with your ideas of how they should act, feel, and think. You can dress that up however you want, but in the end, you’re little better than a conservative Christian whackjob who keeps trying to regulate everyone’s lives according to his own religious bullshit. I don’t have that problem because⁠—unlike you and that conservative Christian whackjob⁠—I don’t believe my morals and ethics deserve to be the law that governs everyone else. Now spit out your script, drone.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:10

You want to call criticism harassment because you do not want people who are behaving immorally but in ways you like to be criticized.

This is especially rich coming from a website that pens innumerable articles criticizing Elon Musk out of hatred for his stopping left-wing censorship on X.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:11

You want to call criticism harassment

When you’ve been told, both implicitly and explicitly, that your presence here is unwanted and you keep coming back anyway, you’re no better than a man who asks for sex from a woman, hears “no”, and keeps asking until the asks turn into demands turn into threats and he hears a “yes” (or just commits the rape without even waiting for that coerced “yes”). Criticism is one thing. What you’re doing is harassment, because you’re not welcome here and you’ve been told to leave property you don’t own, but you keep coming back anyway because⁠—as I’m now sure happened at least once in your life with a woman you wanted to sleep with but didn’t feel the same way⁠—you can’t take “no” for an answer.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:12

The site owner is able to silence my comments (and appears to occasionally tweak the filters for phrases I use to prevent those comments from appearing), but he does not, because he wants to maintain the appearance of being a supporter of free speech. Instead, he, as you, wants to use low-level harassment such as flagging, spam filters, and ranting and cursing, to get me to leave “voluntarily”.

That One Guy (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:6

I will thus note⁠—in vain, but still⁠—that the First Amendment applies to all platforms regardless of whatever made-up bullshit qualifier you want to attach to one. A social media service that hosts a wide variety of speech has the exact same protections under the law as a 10-person forum about Mongolian basket-weaving that allows no off-topic posts.

Never mind the first amendment sites already do what they claim is required in order to avoid being ‘generic’ via the TOSs that users have to agree to in order to use the platform, which have rules on what speech/content is and is not allowed and make clear that the site’s moderators reserve the right to boot people at their discretion.

Yet again their ranting falls apart the second the existence of TOSs enters the picture.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:7

Except that no one reads ToS before using a platform. They just sign up (or not) and go on to say whatever they want to say. The site becomes a generic speech platform and a public square because of how its users act on it.

None of this makes the site lose its legal right to censor as it wishes. But having become a genetic speech platform and a public square, the site should voluntarily choose to honor the principle of free speech and not censor opinions based on viewpoint.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:8

The site becomes a generic speech platform and a public square because of how its users act on it.

And if “generic speech platform” had any meaning in re: the law, you would…still be wrong, because how people (and how many people) use a site that is owned by private interests doesn’t make that site a public square in any legal sense. You keep using that phrase, but it holds no legal meaning compared to, say, the phrase “interactive web service” that is found in 47 U.S.C. § 230. If you can’t show me a law that has “generic speech platform” in it (and survived First Amendment scrutiny), I’ll know that the phrase is some crank-ass bullshit you and some shithead right-winger cooked up with each other in a private Discord server where the two of you do erotic roleplays of Donald Trump banging his daughter.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:10

“The law is irrelevant”

  • wrong

“because these sites that have become the public square”

  • not a public square, it is a private system that allows your participation when you follow their simple rules.

“have a moral obligation, not a legal one, to refrain from censoring the viewpoints of their users.”

  • there is no obligation here other than providing that which they had advertised. You would be correct had the site told you that you could say or do anything you wanted on their property, but that is not the case here.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:8

It does, though. I remember reading one of the Perry Mason novels many, many years ago in which Mason was cross-examining a witness and asked exactly the same question three or four times in a row because the witness was trying to evade giving an answer that was responsive.

Repeating the same response is a way to convey the notion that your interlocutor just doesn’t get it. It’s like speaking to a baby or to a dunce.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:9

Perry Mason did a better job at depicting court room drama than more recent shows with all the crime lab stuff, however Perry Mason was not accurate in some areas like introducing evidence not in discovery or a surprise witness. The TV court shows are way over the top with their silly antics, that is not court, afaik it is arbitration.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:9

Repeating the same response is a way to convey the notion that your interlocutor just doesn’t get it.

Your problem is that most everyone here does understand your bullshit and we refuse to take it as The Unerring Word of God, which you so clearly want us to do.

Typically, someone who finds that a point of argument isn’t being taken seriously in a discussion will find a way to either rehab that argument with citations of fact or pivot to a new, stronger argument. They don’t keep repeating the same tired and debunked point over and over and refuse to explain what makes it “right” beyond a declaration that “it’s right because I say so”. If you’re going to talk to adults, you need to stop pulling that preschool playground horseshit; if you can’t do that, you need to shut the fuck up when grown folks are talking, you sweet summer embryo.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re:

“The sites did not “silence” a President. They suspended his account for violating their rules (after years of bending over backwards to pretend he did not violate their rules). And it did not silence him in any way. He was still able to speak, and whenever he did, his words were immediately conveyed on those same platforms.”

I don’t see why you act like a site not giving someone, even an ex-president, special treatment and instead bouncing them for violating the rules of the site the way they would anyone else who broke their rules is a bad thing.

And that’s the nice thing about S230. Sites can set their own rules for their site and moderate them the way they feel best fits their site. If you want to be able to use that site, you have to follow the rules.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re:

Because he’s an ex-president. We only have some forty-odd of those, most of them are dead, and they’re special because they were once the democratically elected leaders of the best and most powerful nation that has ever existed, chosen by tens of millions of people. Pathetic ankle biters try to silence them.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:3

The ability of the silenced to speak elsewhere is irrelevant.

Have you even reflected on how asinine and contradictory that statement is? It takes just a bit of intelligence and reasoning skill to realize that, but it’s something a fanatic and social media rapist like you lack in all forms.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:4

Not contradictory at all. Being silenced on a platform is still being silenced. The ability to speak elsewhere is irrelevant.

The actual contradiction lies with you – that the very same act is censorship or not depending on whether it occurs on the last platform available to the speaker.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7

A platform that silences opinions based on viewpoint is committing censorship.

On that note: When will you condemn Gab, Parler, Truth Social, and any other right-wing platform that currently bans, has banned, or will ban speech that expresses support for left-wing ideologies/political causes (and the people who post such speech)?

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:8

Now and always. Silencing opinions based on viewpoint is censorship, regardless of which viewpoints are silenced. To the extent that the right-wing sites declare their intent to censor, their users know what to expect, but their actions are censorship nonetheless. The same goes for that putative queer Mastodon instance you’re always nattering on about.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:9

But those sites aren’t as large as Twitter and Facebook. Your talk of “large generic public speech platforms”⁠—which used to be “generic speech platforms” until I schooled your ass a few times on the meaninglessness of that phrase⁠—has always been focused on those large-as-hell sites. You’ve never gone after smaller sites as if they have the same “moral obligation” as the “large generic public speech platforms” (🙄). Are you only going after them now because I (correctly!) pointed out how you’ve been ignoring or excusing the “censorship” of smaller-yet-overtly-biased services like Gab because their politics agree with yours?

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:10

The smaller dedicated sites don’t have the same moral obligation not to censor because they have declared their intent to censor in the description of what they are and whom they intend to serve. However, when they silence comments based on their viewpoint, they are nevertheless committing censorship.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:11

The smaller dedicated sites don’t have the same moral obligation not to censor because they have declared their intent to censor in the description of what they are and whom they intend to serve.

Irrelevant. They are still interactive web services. They are still protected by the same laws that protect the rights of services like Twitter to moderate speech as they see fit. Either the smaller services must have the same moral obligations as the larger services (and therefore must be governed according to the same legal standards) or services of any size have no such obligations (and therefore retain the absolute legal right to moderate speech as they see fit). Which one is it?

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:7

Being silenced on a platform is censorship by that platform.

What you’re doing is conflating the word ‘censorship’ with an exercise of power, the power of private ownership. Doesn’t happen in the real world, only in yours does that conflation make any sense.

But we see, after you’ve hammered it home so many times, your real intention – you want a law to enforce your idea of morality, and that idea is simple: you want to force private parties to host your speech, which is only a cover for your real agenda – you want to force people to read your screed, or listen to your drivel if actual vocal speech is somehow involved.

And that runs afoul of the second prong of the First Amendment, the one that states “the freedom of assembly”. The Supreme Court has interpreted this phrase to mean that private individuals can associate with whomever the might please, and walk away from those who offend them. IOW, you can’t force someone to listen to you, period.

If that’s not “moral” in your opinion, that’s on you, not us. Fix your own problems first, before you start blaming us for your ill-conceived notions.

And finally, the Constitution is not a document on morality, and that’s because the Founders knew that a) political leadership must never be mixed with religious leadership; and b) you can’t legislate morality. The 18th Amendment is the living proof of that, because the 21st Amendment had to repeal it just 14 years later.

If I’ve not persuaded you that your train is running on the wrong track, then you’ve been brainwashed, and we aren’t members in good standing of the psychiatric doctor’s union, so you’ll have to go elsewhere for the help you so desperately need. Here’s your hat, don’t let the door slap your ass on the way out.

Toom1275 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5

Being silenced on a platform is still being silenced.

Is you saying you’re utterly incompetent at basic math, declaring that infinity minus one equals zero like that.

Speech is not “silenced” unless it’s impossible to say at all. It’s impossible for a single platform out of infinity to therefore “silence” anything at all.

Just because you keep lying about what “silencing” means will never change these facts.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:6

Since that makes the very same act of silencing censorship or not depending on whether the silencing is being done on the last available platform, the effect of your definition is to render censorship as never happening, which is what you want when the censorship is in the direction you like.

Do you also believe that Florida is not trying to censor books because you can borrow them from libraries in New York?

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:3

That is an idea that only occurs to those who would silence others by heckling them, or correcting their mistakes relentlessly and tirelessly. Without being able to exclude harassers like you, other peoples freedom of speech is abridged. So long as you can speak where other people can gather to listen to you, you have freedom of speech. If nobody wants to listen to you, that is their right, and you cannot insist that they do.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:5

Telling people they aren’t welcome isn’t the same as censorship. Telling people to stop harassing other people isn’t censorship.

But as everyone here knows, you are a serial harasser and a social media rapist – so of course you think it’s wrong when people get tired of your shit and kick you out of their property.

You talk about “morals” while ignoring that other people also have morals that are vastly different from yours, so if they think they are morally obliged to kick you out – that is right and proper and no matter how much bullshit you spew that will always be the case.

You are a grown man that hasn’t learned that no means no, it’s not even surprising how much of your behavior parallels that of an actual rapist.

That One Guy (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3 There's a reason they try to be as vague as possible

I can translate for you if it’ll help.

‘I loathe the concept of private property and I’m tired of facing consequences for being an asshole, so I’m going to frame anyone deciding that they don’t want to be around me as evil and the act of them telling me to leave as a heinous attack on free speech, which has of course always been shorthand for consequence-free speech(but only for me and those I agree with)’.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re:

Because he was a president of the United States. Someone who was elected by tens of millions of people, all of whom liked the way he spoke and what he said. That gives him much more leeway to be allowed to speak freely. Of course in Trump’s case, the wokies despise him and don’t want him to be heard.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:

So long as he, or anybody else for that matter, can speak where people who want to can go to hear him/them, they have not been silenced. What you keep on demanding is the right to be able to tell people, to their face, jut how wrong you think they are. That is no free speech, that is thought policing.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:2

Censorship is the act of the censor, silencing opinions based on viewpoint on platforms the censor controls.

It is not thought policing to criticize people and tell them they’re wrong. It is only thought policing when you do not allow people to respond to criticism or to offer their opinions.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:3

But when you aren’t invited to the conversation and you still persist in butting your stupid ass into where you aren’t wanted to force your views on other people, that’s not criticism – it’s at best being socially inept but it’s largely a form of harassment.

It really kills you that you aren’t allowed to force yourself into places you aren’t wanted, doesn’t it?

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:5

Oh? Didn’t the owner of this site tell you take your shit elsewhere?

This a place open to the public, why should the owner be forced to put a lock on the door which will inconvenience everyone else because you don’t understand that no means no?

You know you aren’t welcome here, and yet here you are? Is this how you behave in meatspace too? Forcing yourself into places you aren’t welcome just because there are no locks on the door?

It’s people like you, through your stupidity, assholery and social ineptness that forces social media and other sites to implement more and more stringent moderation practices. It’s just how society works, like how laws gets instituted because some asshole couldn’t take a no for a no.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:6

The site owner has ample opportunity to block my comments. He does not do so because that would demonstrate that he does not actually believe in letting people speak freely, as he claims. Instead, he wants me to leave “voluntarily” by applying low-grade harassment to try to make my experience here unpleasant.

Asking people to censor themselves is not a better form of censorship than censoring by force. It is worse. It makes people complicit in their own oppression.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7

He does not do so because that would demonstrate that he does not actually believe in letting people speak freely

No, he doesn’t block your comments because he does believe in letting people speak freely. You’re commenting here anonymously, which is a rarity among websites these days⁠—and Mike doesn’t want to kill anonymous functionality just to get rid of you and your fellow trolls. If anything, the fact that you switched to commenting anonymously instead of taking the fucking hint when Mike started sending all the comments you made under your account to the spamfilter is proof that, like a rapist, you don’t know how to take “no” for an answer.

he wants me to leave “voluntarily” by applying low-grade harassment

I’m sorry, but how can he be harassing you when you’re the one who comes to his property and posts comments against his wishes? Like, this shit has so much “every accusation, a confession” energy that I’m amazed at how you can actually believe your harassment isn’t harassment without your head exploding from the cognitive dissonance.

Asking people to censor themselves is not a better form of censorship than censoring by force.

And yet, you demand that people censor themselves by restricting the practice of their civil rights and behaving in ways you deem “proper”.

That One Guy (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:8 They're happy to dish it out but not so happy to receive it

I’m sorry, but how can he be harassing you when you’re the one who comes to his property and posts comments against his wishes? Like, this shit has so much “every accusation, a confession” energy that I’m amazed at how you can actually believe your harassment isn’t harassment without your head exploding from the cognitive dissonance.

Them whining about being ‘harassed’ is particularly rich given they have made crystal clear that they believe ‘harassing’ someone in order to change their mind/behavior, even someone who has made clear they don’t want to listen to you or have you around is not only acceptable but downright moral.

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7

The site owner has ample opportunity to block my comments.

He does not, at least not without disabling anonymous comments altogether. He could—and did—when you weren’t anonymous. You are actively circumventing the measures he has taken against you.

You’re saying that because he refuses to physically throw you out the door, you aren’t doing anything wrong by staying even though other measures were taken in an attempt stop you from entering. How does that make sense to you?

He does not do so because that would demonstrate that he does not actually believe in letting people speak freely, as he claims.

No, it’s because he doesn’t want to ban anonymous comments altogether, which is the only means he has to actually block you. Stop lying.

Instead, he wants me to leave “voluntarily” by applying low-grade harassment to try to make my experience here unpleasant.

And what do you call what you’re doing if not low-grade harassment?

Asking people to censor themselves is not a better form of censorship than censoring by force. It is worse. It makes people complicit in their own oppression.

In which case your position that platforms voluntarily choose not to moderate based on viewpoint is also censorship because you are asking them to censor themselves as moderation is also an exercise in free speech.

But no, asking people to exercise self-restraint is not in any way a worse form of censorship than silencing them by force. That is an absolutely ludicrous idea.

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JMT (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

Because he was a president of the United States.

That completely fails to explain why a site shouldn’t enforce their ToS against him. It’s also very important to acknowledge they he got away with frequent blatant violations for years, stuff that got ordinary people kicked off all the time. So he was already getting the special treatment you believe he deserved.

Someone who was elected by tens of millions of people all of whom liked the way he spoke and what he said.

Putting aside the facts that more people voted for his opponent and many Trump voters have publicly stated they very much don’t like the way he spoke and what he said, do you think presidents normally have trouble speaking freely? They have entire departments in the executive branch set up purely for presidential communication. TV networks will bend over backwards to platform them. Their words are frequently broadcast around the world. No private company needs to do anything more than they want to, and anybody arguing otherwise is fundamentally misunderstanding the concept of private property.

John85851 (profile) says:

Written by AI or just seeking attention

So that’s my question: was the Wired article written by AI (which has no understanding of Section 230 or anything else) and then cleaned up? Or was the article badly written on purpose to get attention? After all, a lot more people will talk about it, and spread the link, if it’s wrong, than if it was just another article supporting Section 230.

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That One Guy (profile) says:

A most telling absence

And the ‘There are no honest and/or reality-based arguments against 230’ streak remains unbroken since it made it into law.

It’s so strange, if the law really was as terrible as it’s critics want people to believe it is you’d think by now they’d have come up with at least one good argument against it that isn’t based upon misconceptions or flat out lies…

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TFG says:

Re: Re: Re:

Watch that shotgun approach, dude. The person you were speaking to was making a salient point: 230 has, in fact, been through the legal wringer countless times, and countless arguments have been brought against it, and they have all failed in a court of law.

Read properly, the person you accused of being “hyman” is agreeing with That One Guy.

Could you, perhaps, take the time to read what you’re responding to, and maybe take the time to post something of actual value to the conversation?

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Keith says:

Arguing from the conclusion

Seems clear that the authors want the kind of hate and harassment recently surging on XTwitter to be tamped down. And they heard that Twitter wasn’t liable for that stuff due to Section 230. Aha!

“website” plus “law” = “bad results”? Must be a bad law (it goes).

They then seem to have elaborately reverse engineered what they imagined the rest of the legal, constitutional, commercial and technical context must be from there.

Just get rid of section 230! No more bad results, right?

Good takedown.

Anonymous Coward says:

I don’t think anyone is happy with content moderation. Will this make it better though, or even blunter (blunt decisions seem to be a large part of what annoys people about moderation)?

Whatever it is you hate about moderation, messing with 230 will probably make it worse.

And while “get the government involved” “sounds” like a solution to people being unfairly censored by platforms, it would be a big headache in practice.

That One Guy (profile) says:

Re: 'Winning' the battle and immediately losing the war

Whether someone thinks that moderation is currently too excessive and blames 230 for that or doesn’t think it goes far enough and blames 230 for that no-one (other than perhaps the lawyers) will be happy if it’s repealed.

For those that think there’s too much moderation they’re not going to be happy when sites facing liability for user content become vastly quicker to bring down the hammer on anything even remotely questionable.

For those that think there’s not enough moderation they’re not going to be happy when other sites basically stop moderating at all since knowledge of user content means liability for it, and the safer option at that point is just to not even look.

TFG says:

Re: Re:

People have forgotten the old adage: “You know it’s a good compromise because no one is happy with it.” (Caveat: this should not be applied to personal relationships; best kept to the sphere of politics and situations with multiple stakeholders with various selfish desires)

The very fact that multiple people with diametrically opposed goals think section 230 is the problem is an indicator that section 230 is, in fact, something to preserve. If the people trying to kill it for these opposite reasons were at all wise, they’d look at the intentions behind their erstwhile allies actions, see how they run counter to their own intentions, and would take that as a clue that their current course of action might not have the effect they want it to.

In terms of “content moderation” as a whole – here’s a news flash for the world at large: you will never be happy with it. For your mental health, accept that it will never be perfect, and move on to something useful.

Anonymous Coward says:

Apparently the authors don’t like content moderation and claim that content moderation is “beholden to the quest for attention and engagement” and I have no idea what that even means.

Ooh, I know! It means they let Donald Trump stay on Twitter and other platforms, in order to boost engagement numbers, instead of moderating according to their own stated policies.

But wait, that’s the opposite of what Allison Stanger believes.

mneme (user link) says:

But ads, though?

So, the -one- thing in the original and the response I have questions about is ads.

Ads -are- a huge problem. We’ve built these huge online ad networks in pursuit of more revenue (or just enough revenue), and as a result, those ad networks are full of malware of all sort — from problematic ads, to abusive ads that break the functionality of the sites they’re published to, to ads that are flat-out carriers of malware, designed to hack a subset of the machines they’re pushed out to.

The article seems to imply that CDA230 somehow shields parts of the ad networks from liability — preventing the endpoints (websites) from being liable for harm caused by malware (or other not first-amendment protected content; malware is simply the most obvious example of content that is definitely not protected) that get distributed or linked from that endpoint — and while they don’t spell out the idea, imply that the lack of responsiblity might go down the chain, shielding every middle company until you get to whichever company is -actually- deemed liable for said malware.

But is this actually true? Is a website immune from prosecution or tort if it allows ad companies known for sometimes distributing malware (or other unprotected content) to display ads using the website? Are other “middle-ad-ware” companies potentially protected, since the ads they display aren’t chosen by them but selected using a combination of software and an auction system?

Because while this idea seems rediculous, and 230 wasn’t intended to protect such content, I don’t actually know the answer to this.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re:

But is this actually true? Is a website immune from prosecution or tort if it allows ad companies known for sometimes distributing malware (or other unprotected content) to display ads using the website?

The short answer is, it depends.

But most likely, a website displaying ads will probably not be liable for malware delivered by an ad. After all, courts have noted, often, that users are ultimately responsible for their own safety, and that anti-malware is abundantly available, free or for a price. Claiming that you “didn’t know” worked in the days of AOHell, but not since then.

Now, if one can prove collusion between the website and the ad distributor, or even the actual author of the ad, then one might have a case. But getting to the root of that will require a lot of lawyering, and we all know who’s wallet benefits from that kind of action.

tl;dr:

Caveat emptor. Let the buyer beware. IOW, stay awake and pay attention.

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TFG says:

Re: Re:

It also depends on what criminal liability exists in the space for delivering malicious payloads, like malware. S230 doesn’t shield from any criminal liability. If an ad distributor faced any criminal liability for malware ads through their network, S230 wouldn’t apply.

Malware isn’t exactly content in the same vein as most people fluffing about S230 mean, either. It’s not “speech” or “expression.” So S230 might not shield in that, either, if it were to come to a court case.

Of course, I Am Not A Lawyer, either. These are just my thoughts in regards to the question posed.

Anonymous Coward says:

Talk about a forked tongue...

The internet affects everyone, so we must devise measures to ensure that our digital-age public discourse is of high quality and includes everyone.

So. We’re supposed to, everyone that engages publicly, all of us make high quality statements? Would that be of opinion or of fact, or of both? Because sure as shootin’, there’s a very sizable element of society that prefers to act as bullies towards anyone who uses verifiable facts in a calm and rational manner, and attempts to harass them into silence. We have an English language word for that kind of person: asshole.

It’s simply not possible to bring everyone to the same table (except at the voting booth), the good guys and the assholes recognize each other on sight, and avoid each other as much as possible, if only for personal sanity reasons.
The good guys don’t like to yell and scream, the assholes think that’s the only way to communicate. But as in The Old West, sometimes you have to fight fire with fire, and as soon as you do, the assholes screech even louder about being harassed themselves. (Talk about the irony of a dichotomy…)

Nice idea, buddies, but until you can issue a large dose of Valium to every asshole, and reliably guarantee that they ingest said dose before that gathering at the table, you aren’t gonna achieve that particular goal.

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Anonymous Coward says:

In enabling the privatization of the public square…

Excuse the fuck out of me, but who the fuck said anything about privatization of public property?

Ah, Lanier and Stanger did.

OK, you two asshelmets, explain to us exactly why a private corporation or company is somehow entitled to call itself a public square? In fact, I don’t recall any social media outfit making that particular claim, so I wanna see the chain of evidence that supports your statement. And no “feelz”, it’s got to be solid hard facts, or I’m calling bullshit.

Or is it somehow true that you two are fabricating all of this bullshit because one or both of you “suffered” the ignominy of being cast out for violations of the TOS, AUP, etc., and you want some retribution? I’m willing to give you the benefit of the doubt, but if neither of you can deliver a cogent and rational explanation, and soon, then I’m gonna to default to the latter disposition.

-$- Disclaimer: I have not personally used every social media site ever devised and published, so I may be over-extending myself by stating “no social media site has claimed to be the town square”. If one of them has done so, please respond here, and I’ll duly admit my error.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re:

Large private generic speech platforms are the public square because that’s how their users perceive them, not because the platforms have declared themselves to be that.

No, that’s not how the average user perceive them. The whole “social media companies are the new public square” was entirely invented by snowflakes, assholes, S230 haters and toxic politicians who couldn’t understand why assholes couldn’t behave like assholes online without consequence.

This post isn’t actually directed at you Hyman, it’s directed at everyone else that isn’t an unthinking fanatic that likes to harass people.

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That One Guy (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

By their argument if a sufficiently large percentage of people decided that their house/lawn was their town’s ‘public square’ they would have a moral obligation to let any member of the town use their property, and it would be entirely justified for anyone who was refused to harass them until they caved and accepted said obligation lest they be a censor attempting to silence viewpoints they disagree with.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5

Yes or no, shitbird: If I invite you into my home to talk about anything you want, and you talk shit about my family, am I a censor when I (metaphorically, if not literally) kick you out of my home despite my actions not actually silencing your speech in the same way that a SLAPP suit or a threat of violence can silence speech? Furthermore: Am I committing “low-grade harassment” if I have you arrested after you keep coming back to my home against my wishes to demand I let you in so you can talk more shit about my family on my property?

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:6

That depends. If I’m violating rules of spam (I try to sell you a multilevel marketing scheme), topicality (you specified the subjects to be discussed and I speak about something else), or decorum (I call you a shitbird), then you preventing me from saying those things is moderation, not censorship. If you prevent me from stating my viewpoints, you are committing censorship. My ability to speak elsewhere is irrelevant.

You can only have me arrested if I’m committing a crime (since I’m not Black). If I’m committing a crime, it is not harassment to have me arrested; it is the good and correct thing to do.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7

If you prevent me from stating my viewpoints, you are committing censorship. My ability to speak elsewhere is irrelevant.

Only a fool would believe the “I have been silenced” fallacy after it’s pointed out to them.

If I’m committing a crime, it is not harassment to have me arrested; it is the good and correct thing to do.

I bet you’d have something done to Mike if he kept coming to your home against your wishes to yell about how you’re a hateful piece of shit. And yet, you will argue that Mike is wrong when he takes action against you here even though you keep coming to his property against his wishes and yelling about how you’re a hateful piece of shit. How can a demand from a property owner that you leave his property be any kind of “harassment” when you’re the one who refuses to take “no” for an answer from the rightful owner of that property? (Corollary: How many times did potential lovers tell you “no” only for you to keep going anyway? I mean, if you have trouble taking “no” for an answer in one context…)

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:8

Censorship is the act of the censor, silencing opinions based on viewpoint in platforms the censor controls. The ability of the silenced to speak elsewhere is irrelevant. Just like when wokies try to execute a heckler’s veto to keep conservatives from speaking on college campuses.

Your projection of the things that you have done onto me just demonstrates how dangerous and insane you are.

Toom1275 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5

The law says you’re 100% full of shit, Hyman.

This “the platform said it’s for free expression therefore it has to never ban everyone” lie you’re parroting was thrown at the wall by the shitheads from PragerUwU but the Ninth Circuit wasn’t fooled:

PragerU’s claim that YouTube censored PragerU’s speech faces a formidable threshold hurdle: YouTube is a private entity. The Free Speech Clause of the First Amendment prohibits the government-not a private party-from abridging speech. See Halleck, 139 S.Ct. at 1928 (the Free Speech Clause ‘prohibits only governmental abridgment of speech,’ and ‘does not prohibit private abridgment of speech’); Hudgens v. NLRB, 424 U.S. 507, 513 (1976) (‘the constitutional guarantee of free speech is a guarantee only against abridgment by government, federal or state’). PragerU does not dispute that YouTube is a private entity that operates its platform without any state involvement.

These are not antiquated principles that have lost their vitality in the digital age. In Halleck the Supreme Court considered whether a private entity that operates a public access channel on a cable system is a state actor. 139 S. Ct. at 1926. The plaintiffs tested a theory that resembled PragerU’s approach, claiming that a private entity becomes a state actor through its ‘operation’ of the private property as ‘a public forum for speech.’ Id. at 1930. The Court rejected this argument. Such a rule would eviscerate the state action doctrine’s distinction between government and private entities because ‘all private property owners and private lessees who open their property for speech would be subject to First Amendment constraints.’ Id. at 1930?31. Instead, the Court reaffirmed that ‘merely hosting speech by others is not a traditional, exclusive public function and does not alone transform private entities into state actors subject to First Amendment constraints.’ Id. at 1930.

Importantly, private property does not ‘lose its private character merely because the public is generally invited to use it for designated purposes.’ Lloyd Corp. v. Tanner, 407 U.S. 551, 569 (1972). YouTube may be a paradigmatic public square on the Internet, but it is ‘not transformed’ into a state actor solely by ‘provid[ing] a forum for speech.’ Halleck, 129 S. Ct. at 1930, 1934.

The relevant function performed by YouTube-hosting speech on a private platform-is hardly ‘an activity that only governmental entities have traditionally performed.’ Halleck, 139 S.Ct. at 1930. Private parties like ‘[g]rocery stores’ and ‘[c]omedy clubs’ have ‘open[ed] their property for speech.’ Id. YouTube does not perform a public function by inviting public discourse on its property. ‘The Constitution by no means requires such an attenuated doctrine of dedication of private property to public use.’ Lloyd Corp., 407 U.S. at 569. Otherwise ‘every retail and service establishment in the country’ would be bound by constitutional norms. Cent. Hardware Co. v. NLRB, 407 U.S. 539, 547 (1972) (private parking lots do not become state actors just because they are open to the public).

That YouTube is ubiquitous does not alter our public function analysis. PragerU argues that the pervasiveness of YouTube binds it to the First Amendment because Marsh teaches that ‘[t]he more an owner, for his advantage, opens up his property for use by the public in general, the more do his rights become circumscribed by the ‘ constitutional rights of those who use it.’ 326 U.S. at 506. PragerU’s reliance on Marsh is not persuasive. In Marsh, the Court held that a private entity operating a company town is a state actor and must abide by the First Amendment. Id. at 505-08. But in Lloyd Corp. and Hudgens, the Court unequivocally confined Marsh’s holding to the unique and rare context of ‘company town[s]’ and other situations where the private actor ‘perform[s] the full spectrum of municipal powers.’…

YouTube does not fit the bill. Unlike the company town in Marsh, YouTube merely operates a platform for user-generated video content; it does not ‘perform[] all the necessary municipal functions,’ Flagg Bros., 436 U.S. at 159, nor does it operate a digital business district that has ‘all the characteristics of any other American town,’

Shifting gears slightly, PragerU posits that a private entity can be converted into a public forum if its property is opened up for public discourse. This theory finds no support in our precedent. As the Supreme Court has explained, to create a public forum, the government must intentionally open up the property to public discourse…. That YouTube is not owned, leased, or otherwise controlled by the government undermines PragerU’s public forum theory

PragerU?s attempt to foist a ‘public forum’ label on YouTube by claiming that YouTube declared itself a public forum also fails. YouTube’s representation that it is committed to freedom of expression, or a single statement made by its executive before a congressional committee that she considers YouTube to be a ‘neutral public fora,’ cannot somehow convert private property into a public forum. Whether a property is a public forum is not a matter of election by a private entity. We decline to subscribe to PragerU’s novel opt-in theory of the First Amendment.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

Those who make the “social media is the public square” argument want people to believe that social media should become what is legally recognized as a public square⁠—which is to say, a piece of property governed by public ownership rules that should offer little (if any) moderation of legally protected speech. The whole thing about “viewpoint discrimination” is a direct reference to government interference, in that the government can’t censor/silence speech based only on the viewpoint expressed by that speech.

But this argument glosses over the fact that social media services are inherently private property. As such, even if a service openly declares itself to be a “new public square”, the law still gives those who own that service the right to moderate speech however they see fit. Those decisions are a practice in free speech and association⁠—two concepts protected by law thanks to the First Amendment under U.S. law.

The whole “social media is the public square” argument relies on trying to sidestep those rights and forcing⁠—one way or another⁠—social media services to carry speech they otherwise wouldn’t. It demands that the person making the argument have more rights than do the owners of social media services. Anyone who makes the argument in any seriousness wants to commandeer private property they don’t own for use as their personal soapbox. They can be rightfully dismissed as cranks, buffoons, jackasses, or whatever other insult you feel is appropriate. (“Fascists” also works here.)

No social media service is legally recognized as a public square. Anyone who tells you otherwise is a liar. Anyone who believes that lie is a fool.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:2

Social media is a public square because large generic speech platforms have set themselves up to be that – they invite millions, even billions, of people to join and speak about every imaginable topic.

Nothing about this requires “legal recognition as a public square”. That’s merely an excuse because you want to have censorship of viewpoints you hate without being criticized for that censorship.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:2

As always, you want to hide behind legalism because you want your censorship not to be criticized.

A large private generic speech platform is a public square because the owners invite users by the millions to speak there on every topic imaginable.

The history of legal requirements on private owners to allow certain speech on their property is long, complicated, and has many reverses:
https://law.justia.com/constitution/us/amendment-01/17-speech-plus.html
But since I’m not talking about legal requirements at all, just moral obligations, that’s not particularly relevant, just interesting.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3

A large private generic speech platform is a public square

In a colloquial sense, yes, it is. But not in the legal sense, where such designations matter in regards to the First Amendment. I mean, you even undercut your own argument by using the word “private” in that overwrought (and ultimately meaningless) phrasing you use to describe social media services. Twitter isn’t a public utility or public land⁠—a fact that you can’t deny!⁠—so Twitter can’t be a public square under any legal definition of the phrase.

The history of legal requirements on private owners to allow certain speech on their property is long, complicated, and has many reverses

And it boils down to one general principle that has few exceptions: A private entity cannot be compelled to express, distribute, or host any speech with which they disagree. The government can’t force Twitter to host anti-Elon speech any more than you can force Twitter to ban pro-queer speech (your desire to endlessly harass people into compliance with your morality notwithstanding).

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TFG says:

Re: Re:

Public square: (noun)
1: an open public area in a city or town where people gather
2: the sphere of public opinion

Note that “open public area” carries a requirement itself – that of said area being owned by the municipality / the public. The public’s perception of it doesn’t really enter into it.

California went a little bit farther than literally anywhere else – in Cali, non-transactional public access to a space makes it a public space, so the corridors of the mall between shops (but not the shop interiors) are a public space.

However, that non-transactional part is important. Social Media sites are not non-transactional. You have to make an account to post there. You have to agree to Terms of Service. You do enter into some contractual obligations when you sign up to interact; it’s not entirely non-transactional.

So even in Cali, by law, these social media places are not the public square. Public perception does not change that – those who buy into that perception are simply mistaken in their understanding of what the actual law is.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

People who cite Pruneyard as an argument for social media services to lose the right to moderate speech always misrepresent that decision⁠—and forget about its subsequent narrowing. If anything, applying Pruneyard to the Internet would uphold the principles of network neutrality, for it would be one’s Internet connection that acts as the conduit (the “non-transactional public access” space) to a social media service (the “shop”).

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:

The law is irrelevant, since I am not suggesting that the large private generic speech platforms are legally a public square such that are required to do anything. The platforms are a de facto public square because that’s how they set themselves up and that’s how the public treats them. They have only a moral obligation to uphold the free speech of their users, not a legal one.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2

I am not suggesting that the large private generic speech platforms are legally a public square

That has literally been one of the underpinnings of your arguments since you started making that “large generic speech platforms are the public square” argument. If you really didn’t want to suggest such a thing, you should’ve made arguments that didn’t suggest such a thing.

The platforms are a de facto public square because that’s how they set themselves up and that’s how the public treats them.

That doesn’t make them an actual public square under the law, no matter how much you wish it did. “Public square” may have a colloquial meaning that applies to something like Twitter, but it also has a legal meaning that applies to publicly owned property⁠—which Twitter has never been and never will be. If you didn’t want your arguments about morality to be mistaken for arguments about legalities, you should’ve made arguments that couldn’t be mistaken that way.

But as I’ve pointed out, you can’t adapt your arguments. Sure, you can change them a little bit to act like you’re adapting them⁠—like the way you added “private” to “large generic speech platforms” to account for the private property rights arguments, and that was after adding “large” to “generic speech platforms” so you wouldn’t look like you were trying to target Mastodon instances and such with your demands for the “proper behavior” of social media services. But keeping your argument the same while changing a minor bit of wording doesn’t actually change your argument. When your argument has been debunked and disproven time and time again but you keep repeating that argument as if it has any credibility or worth with anyone here besides the other trolls, you begin to sound like an AI chat engine designed by a right-winger. At this point, I have to assume that’s what you are, since you’re unable to adapt beyond a simple script and you hate queer people with a fervor that is surpassed only by conservative Christian preachers.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:2

The law is irrelevant

No, it’s not. You want to substitute the law which happens to be a compromise of generally accepted rights, obligations, ethics and morals. That you think that your morals should supersede that is just hilarious and fucking stupid in the extreme. You went with that argument because you know that you don’t have a real argument, so you whine about morals and “the founding principles” or whatever shit you dreamed up that has no resemblance to factual history.

The platforms are a de facto public square because that’s how they set themselves up and that’s how the public treats them.

No, they aren’t the “de facto public square” – that’s an invention by idiots like you who can’t take a no for a no. They are private services open to the public only if a presumptive user accept the rules governing the service. If you accept the rules you don’t get to fucking complain when you get dinged for breaking them, that’s what entitled assholes do who think the rules doesn’t apply to them.

They have only a moral obligation to uphold the free speech of their users, not a legal one.

They have a moral obligation to kick people like you off their services, since you don’t understand no while forcing yourself and your “views” upon others. They have a moral obligation to their shareholders to make the service acceptable to as many users as possible since that equates to profit, that precludes users that espouse viewpoints that are seen as detrimental to the service and reprehensible in general. They have a moral obligation to their users to make the service usable without the users having to wade through content they don’t want to see.

That your views and opinions are so fucking reprehensible that no one wants to associate with just means your morals aren’t worth shit.

In short Hyman, you are a waste of space and should fuck off until you learn some fucking humility and social graces.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:3

Different people believe in different moral obligations. That’s why we have culture wars.

You happen to enjoy the left-wing censorship that the large private generic speech platforms provide, or provided, so you are angry that I would have that be done away with. But your anger isn’t going to change my viewpoint.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4

And yet, you never once took sites that engaged in right-wing “censorship” to task until I explicitly asked you if thought that their biased moderation was “censorship”. I suspect you answered “yes” only because you thought that would placate me and make me think you’re actually some kind of enlightened centrist instead of a right-wing foot soldier. (You thought wrong, by the way.) The fact that you keep talking about “censorship” in terms of left- and right-wing, and the fact that you only ever talk about left-wing “censorship”, undercuts any claim you think you have to being a “champion of free speech” or whatever. You’re more than happy with left-wing speech getting moderated more than right-wing speech (even if you won’t openly say so), but when the reverse is true, you whine and wail and complain about how those evil lefties are “silencing” people who aren’t actually being silenced.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:5

You really are an idiot. Why in the world do you think I would want to placate you, when you should be noticing that my every response to you, in addition to correcting your unceasing errors, is also meant to rile you up?

As I’ve explained to you, I like to correct prevailing but wrong ideas. On TechDirt, those are almost entirely left-wing. When I speak about censorship by large private generic speech platforms, you hear only criticism of left-wing censorship because that’s the censorship you don’t want criticized, or perhaps because you understand that this is the prevalent form of censorship. But nothing about “silencing opinions based on viewpoint” implies the politics of those viewpoints.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:6

Why in the world do you think I would want to placate you

Because you continually come back here despite the site owner telling you to fuck all the way off multiple times and continually respond to me, a guy with way too much free time on his hands and the self-control of a crack-addicted lab rat at best, as if you really care what I have to say about your bullshit. If you didn’t care, you wouldn’t keep replying to me. I keep replying to you because I care what I think and I want to keep my thinking sharp, which is why I keep finding new ways to phrase my arguments and back them up with solid reasoning. Contrast that with how you keep posting the same scripted bullshit over and over while offering no reasoning for your bullshit beyond “I’m objectively correct because I say I am”.

you should be noticing that my every response to you … is also meant to rile you up?

Yes, yes, you’re being an obstinate troll who would fit right in on /pol/. Now tell me something I don’t know⁠—like, y’know, your real-ass government-ass name.

I like to correct prevailing but wrong ideas

And you’re failing miserably, because the only people here who support your bullshit are the trolls⁠—and of those people, none of them are willing to back your support for the creation and distribution of CSAM. Like, did you really expect anyone to condone the sexual abuse of children like you did?

When I speak about censorship by large private generic speech platforms, you hear only criticism of left-wing censorship because that’s the censorship you don’t want criticized

If some left-wing dirtbag wanted to ban To Kill a Mockingbird from a public library on account of how much that book uses the N-word, I’d be more than willing to shit on that dirtbag for being a censorious asshat. Actual censorship is something I stand against regardless of political leaning. But content moderation isn’t censorship, no matter how much you repeat the same scripted bullshit that falls flat every time you repeat it. A SLAPP suit, a threat of arrest, and death threats can chill someone’s desire to speak freely; a ban from Twitter cannot.

nothing about “silencing opinions based on viewpoint” implies the politics of those viewpoints

It kind of does, though. The people who tend to whine about “viewpoint discrimination” or a lack of “viewpoint diversity” are exactly the kind of people who were the butt of a well-crafted joke by Twitter user @ndrew_lawrence. You’ll hear a left-winger talking more about certain kinds of people being silenced, but you’ll hear a right-winger talking more about certain kinds of ideas being “silenced”⁠—and it’s because those right-wing ideas are typically steeped in bigotry, whether that’s racism or classism or homophobia or antisemitism. Therein lies your problem: As you keep trying to act like you’re an enlightened centrist who hates both the left and the right in equal measure, your speech keeps morally and philosophically aligning you with right-wingers. (And that includes the extremists who are 100% fine with a non-binary teenager being beaten badly enough that they died a day later regardless of why that teenager was beaten.)

You are a conservative extremist, Hyman. Your rhetoric echoes the exterminationist language of violent transphobes. Your refusal to take “no” for an answer and leave this site puts you in league with rapists, MGTOWs, and other fucked-up men who believe they have a right to someone else’s body without consent. Your ideology is shared by people who have no problem with legal segregation and the violent upholding thereof⁠—whether that’s limited to trans people or broad enough to cover anyone who might, say, benefit from a DEI initiative. Nothing about you is liberal. Nothing about you is centrist. You are a right-wing fascist with delusions of grandeur and the intellectual depth of a fishbowl. When you’re finally willing to admit that, I’ll be happy to congratulate you on putting forth a genuine display of honesty. Until then: Spit out your script, then go fuck yourself with a Bad Dragon dildo.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:4

Different people believe in different moral obligations. That’s why we have culture wars.

No, we have culture wars because some people, like you, think they are right and goes out of their way to force themselves into other people’s life against their wishes using any methods necessary, like lying and re-defining words. And when that doesn’t work they escalate their behavior and starts harassing people, calling for the erasure of groups they don’t like and for violent solutions.

I don’t care one bit about your morals and viewpoints, I care about you forcing yourself on other people, Mr Rapist. Other people have rights to, like avoiding you like the plague because no normal person would ever want to be associated with someone like you. I feel sorry for your family that has to sit there with a shit-eating grin every time you say your stupid shit.

You happen to enjoy the left-wing censorship that the large private generic speech platforms provide, or provided, so you are angry that I would have that be done away with. But your anger isn’t going to change my viewpoint.

I enjoy bitch-slapping stupid assholes like you who pretend assholery is a viewpoint, someone who had to invent that stupid word-salad that has no bearing on reality. That you think this is some kind of “left-wing censorship” only proves you have no real argument, you just took the right-wing snowflake mentality of victimhood and ran with it. Poor you, melting in the light of reality.

In short, you are just a rapist that forces yourself on people thinking you are morally right. But do try do the same in meat-space and we’ll see how long it takes before you are behind bars.

So fuck off, Mr Rapist.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:5

No, we have culture wars because some people, like you, think they are right and goes out of their way to force themselves into other people’s life against their wishes using any methods necessary,

That is a declaration that you will not accept opinions that differ from your, and that ‘your correct moral behavior’ is nothing more than an unreasoning ‘I am right and you are wrong’ basis for telling other people how to behave. You are no better than any religious extremist who want to impose their morality on everybody else, indeed you have made you opinion your religion.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4

It is not up to the targets of criticism to “let” their opponents criticize them.

But they do have the right to stop listening to you⁠—and to kick you off their property if you’re on it. That isn’t “censorship”, and implying that it is also implies that you have something no one else does: a right to free reach.

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Mamba (profile) says:

Re: Re:

“large generic speech platforms” are not a thing. It’s at best a phrase shared by you, and what appears to be a college sophomore. Nobody, and I mean, nobody else uses such an asinine phrase.

Also, specific speech vs. generic speech is also irrelevant.

And if ANYTHING is true about Facebook/Twitter/etc….it’s that they are a MARKETING platform. Ads.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re:

“Large private generic speech platforms are the public square because that’s how their users perceive them, not because the platforms have declared themselves to be that.”

Can anyone do this also?
Fancy, expensive sports cars are my property because that is how I perceive it.
Hey, this is awesome!!!
Large expensive mansions too – woohooo!!!!

That One Guy (profile) says:

Re: Re:

Not that they seem to enforce it unless getting called out these days but I’m pretty sure Twitter also has a TOS that users are required to agree to that includes ‘here’s what you shouldn’t do/say’, along with a ‘we reserve the right to give any user the boot for any reason’ clause, neither of which apply to public town squares so even to the extent that that’s what they want to be considered it very much comes with ‘but we’re still private property and reserve all the rights that come with that’ caveats.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

Yeah, there’s a difference between the colloquial “town square” and an actual town square: The former is privately owned property that is open to the public and the latter is public property. That may be a distinction without a difference to some, but the law is pretty clear that the owner(s) of a colloquial “town square” can moderate speech on that property pretty much however they wish.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:6

Considering how Hyman Rosen aligning himself morally and philosophically with anti-trans dirtbags like Chaya Raichik and conservative Christian evangelicals puts him in the same company as people who go out of their way to either commit or inspire violence against queer people? You’re not that far off.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:7

Considering that the wokie filth aligns itself with people who murder, rape, and kidnap Jews, the people with whom you claim I align myself are a much better choice. But as I’ve told you before, my opinions are my own and I don’t claim alliance with anyone. If some of those people have views that I don’t share, arguing with me about them is not going to accomplish anything for you. If you disagree with them, go argue with them.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:3

“without being criticized for it”

I do not recall the above discussion, perhaps you could point it out .. with a link or something? I do recall reading rebuttals to bullshit, but it was not complaining other than the fact that some people continue with the same bullshit over and over.

“Large private generic speech platforms should not censor opinions based on viewpoint even though they are allowed to do so.”

You are wrong. In addition, you might be addressing the wrong audience here. How many readers here are in authority at their firm to perform the not required task of making sure your voice is heard over all others?

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:4

Maybe Elon Musk reads this forum. Maybe that’s why he bought Twitter.

Addressing the wrong and powerless audiences? You mean like Bode writing articles about how bad telecom companies are or Cushing writing about how bad police are? You don’t think that people without power write about how the powerful should behave?

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:7

What occurs to us is that you are not Cassandra, and you are not laying any kind of prophecies on us. Instead, you are proving yourself a fool every time you open your mouth.

Obviously not only do you not have a clue about what “social norms” means, but you also do not pay attention to ancient Chinese proverbs. Sad.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:7

“It occurs to me that Cassandra may actually have enjoyed the fact that no one believed her prophecies and then suffered the consequences.”

Oh, so now you are some sort of soothsayer?

soothsayer:
Someone who knows the truth. They’ve always know the real truth and nothing but the truth, and can’t help but share it with others. You can run, but you can’t hide forever.
https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Soothsayer

Anonymous Coward says:

Re:

OP here, the one that started this sub-thread.

I’ve finally figured it out, with the help of some responders here who pulled back the covers and exposed the root of the problem. Thanks guys.

OK, so the bottom line here is one of definition. A few, shall we say, border-line hecklers here, are correct – many people do perceive social media sites as an online version of the public square. Why is that, do you suppose?

Simple – the definition of social is actually not easy to determine, because nearly all of the dictionaries use the root word to define it. But in essence, it means “the gestalt of a congregation of people living in a common area and sharing common concerns about how to live together and get along”. This also serves to define civility, and possibly civilization in general, but I don’t want to go that far, I’m more concerned with “social”.

In that light, it’s no wonder that unthinking people immediately equate “social” as a synomym for “society”, and from there, they think “the body politic” (how to arrive at acceptable permissions/denials for behavior towards one another), and finally, they arrive at, you guessed it, the public in general. Social -> Public. Easy-peasy.

I admit that I hadn’t seen this equation until having read the above postings, but now it’s all clear – those who didn’t pay attention in either Language Arts or History classes are the very ones we now perceive as foaming-at-the-mouth assholes. The didn’t learn about how language is meant to be a tool for lucid communications, and they sure as shit are hell-bent on proving Georges Santyana to have been correct all along.

I feel sorry for them, because the education system failed them in the hour (actually years!) of their most strident need. There was a reason we had corporal punishment, until Dr. Spock came along….

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re:

People correctly perceive social media sites as the public square because large private generic speech platforms seek to have all people use them to speak about any topic. When those same platforms then censor opinions based on viewpoint, the people feel that that their freedom of speech has been unfairly curtailed. The fact that the platforms are legally allowed to censor in this way doesn’t matter.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:

When those same platforms then censor opinions based on viewpoint

Actually, no large, popular platform has ever censored a poster for his/her viewpoint. (Gab and the like are neither large or popular, so we can exempt them from that statement.) What they’ve done is said “You have run afoul of the Terms of Service (or the Acceptable Use Policy), and therefore you’re out of here.

What was the exact infraction? Posting in all caps is right up there near the top, that’s yelling and is not civil anyone’s book. Well, not anyone who actually is civil by nature.

Next would be outright harassment. Calling someone names, denigrating their opinions, making fun of them (mocking), making threats of forceful retribution, all of those and a host of other socially unacceptable behavior traits are grounds for getting the boot.

And guess who “earns” the boot by violating these tenets the most often? Yep, it’s the (vastly) under educated RWNJ’s that screech “I tried to tell them they were wrong, and I got booted”, when the real reason was that said nut job told the other people that they were dickheads, they were about to be doxxed or swatted or some such, and they did it in all caps. That was the reason they were booted, not because they espoused some particular viewpoint.

Ergo sum, the nut jobs were not censored as you would have it, they were shown the door for childish behavior, and continued that childish behavior after one or more warnings.

So who am I to spew all this as if I knew it to be absolutely correct? I’m sumgai, and I’ve been running a predominantly guitar oriented board since 2005. We have members from all over the world, some go and some stay. In all that time, I’ve had to boot only two people, and in both cases, it was for reasons that I described above. So yes, I know how this works. That board is work, but it’s also fun…. until an asshole pops up out of the dirt, and Mjolnir gets a little exercise – that’s not a good look for a family-friendly board. In fact, it pisses me off almost as much as your pig-headed inability to see reason. In the words of B.A. Baracus, “I pity the fool who flashes swords with Zorro!”

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3

Yes or no: If the owner of a given social media service doesn’t want you to say that on their platform⁠—to the point where the rules of that service say “don’t say that shit or you will be banned”⁠—and you say it anyway, does your being booted from that service for violating the rules count as “censorship”?

  • If “yes”: How is their exercise of their First Amendment–protected rights of speech and association preventing you from going anywhere else but their property and saying the same shit that got you banned from their property without fear of having the person who banned you from the service in question show up and demand your silence?
  • If “no”: How does that square away with your argument that being booted from a “generic speech platform” (🙄) is an act of censorship equal in measure to having your speech silenced by either the government threatening to arrest you, some jackoff threatening to sue you, or some jackoff threatning to kill you?

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:4

Yes, of course that’s censorship. Censorship is the act of the censor, silencing opinions based on viewpoint on platforms the censor controls. The ability of the silenced to speak elsewhere is irrelevant. The act of prior restraint, saying that certain viewpoints are banned even before anyone has spoken them, is also censorship.

I didn’t know why you have so much trouble understanding that.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5

I didn’t know why you have so much trouble understanding that.

I don’t understand your argument because you keep trying to equate the law with your personal morality while also demanding that I stop saying you are. You keep using terms that speak to legalities⁠—e.g., “viewpoint censorship” and now “prior restraint”⁠—but insist that you’re arguing only about moralities. You keep insisting that private moderation actions that only affect a single platform and have a fundamental basis in law/First Amendment jurisprudence are the exact same thing as the actions of bad-faith actors who want to silence someone from expressing themselves any- and everywhere out of fear of the consequences.

Being booted from a social media service isn’t censorship. It’s you walking onto someone’s property, being a shithead, and being shown the door when the owner shows up and says “get this shithead off my property”. You’re the one who keeps falling for (and propagating) the “I have been silenced” fallacy like continuously repeating the same debunked, tired-ass, played-out copypasta another thousand times will suddenly make it true.

Like an AI text generator, you have no ability to adapt beyond your script in a way that makes you sound human. And you are scripted, make no mistake about that⁠—your continuing efforts to make that one line about censorship you keep repeating seem profound (despite it only having the depth of a mud puddle) is proof enough of that. I may repeat certain ideas and use a few copypastas here and there, but I don’t workshop and script my arguments out beforehand like you apparently do. I think about the arguments I’m going to make and try to find new ways of phrasing them so I don’t keep sounding like a(n intentionally) broken record.

If you want people to understand your argument, you need more than “I said this and it’s the truth, so there”, because that isn’t you making an argument⁠—it’s you declaring yourself God. Your hubris might win you brownie points somewhere, but your problem is, that place isn’t here. So find a better argument than “censorship is me getting the boot from Twitter for being a shithead” and find a better way to support it besides “I’m going to repeat this one line over and over and over because forced memes always become popular”⁠—because Milhouse was never a meme, and neither is your bullshit.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:6

Censorship is the act of the censor, silencing opinions based on viewpoint on platforms the censor controls. The ability of the silence to speak elsewhere is irrelevant. The legality of the censorship is irrelevant.

If the ability to speak elsewhere were relevant, which it is not, then the very same act would be censorship or not depending on whether the platform is the last place available to the speaker. That’s a nonsensical requirement. It is the intention to silence viewpoints that makes an act be censorship.

I will keep repeating this straightforward statement every single time you want to excuse your desire for censorship. If you don’t like it, you are free to go elsewhere.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:7

So, Hyman.

I suppose you should be let back into those Republican sites you were banned from?

After all, if Mike is a hypocrite for not calling the police on your bigoted ass, those sites are also hypocrites for banning you, your IP, and the IP range you were posting on/in, along with all noted aliases and browser fingerprints associated with you, at a bare minimum.

Or maybe it’s because you were harassing those sites as well, after they told you to fuck off with your antitheistic no sense.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:8

Yes, those sites should also honor their moral obligation to freedom of speech (and religion). But they believe in Republicans, so honoring values of freedom is even less in their wheelhouse than it is for wokies. They like their echo chambers as much as you like yours. I think the last site from which I was banned became angry because I was arguing against Searle’s dumb Chinese Room analogy which they were trying to use as a proof against AGI (they believe in souls).

Credit where credit is due – the site owner here at least sticks to his guns in pretending to support freedom of speech by not banning my posts outright.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:9

Yes, those sites should also honor their moral obligation to freedom of speech (and religion). But they believe in Republicans, so honoring values of freedom is even less in their wheelhouse than it is for wokies.

And yet, you only ever talk about left-wing “censorship” and how “generic speech platforms” (🙄) should moderate in a way that shows undue deference to right-wing positions⁠—even (and especially) if those positions dehumanize an entire demographic as an attempt to blame some broad societal problem on that demographic (and implicitly suggest segregation of that demographic at a bare minimum is the solution to that problem).

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:10

Large private generic speech platforms should not censor opinions based on viewpoint, not to the left and not to the right. I talk mostly about the evils of the left here on TechDirt because the prevailing false beliefs here are theirs.

Wokies believe that publishing true statistics that reflect negatively on their favored victim groups should be prevented. Wokies hate that reality has a right-wing bias.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:11

Large private generic speech platforms should not censor opinions based on viewpoint, not to the left and not to the right.

Other than the size of its userbase, the amount of traffic it receives, and any ridiculous “public square” designation that has no actual legal weight, what makes Twitter more legally bound than any smaller social media service to objectively follow your subjective ideas of “proper behavior” in re: moderation?

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Anonymous Coward says:

In removing so much liability, Section 230…

Except that Section 230 doesn’t remove any liability from my reading of the relevant statute, it simply shifts that liability onto the correct parties. I’m not someone who relies on the protections afforded by Section 230, so how come I know so much more about it than a people who do?

That One Guy (profile) says:

Re: 'If I admit to what it ACTUALLY says that sinks my whole argument, so...'

I’m not someone who relies on the protections afforded by Section 230, so how come I know so much more about it than a people who do?

It is difficult to get a person to understand or admit to understanding a thing when their entire argument depends upon real or feigned ignorance of it.

Anonymous Coward says:

I gotta say, considering that this is an article on Section 230, I genuinely expected John Smith to have shown up already just to embarrass himself. But it looks like he took a peek, saw that Hyman Rosen was already doing a bang-up performance on that front and quickly excused himself.

Or the likelier explanation is he’s going to wait for a few more days before dropping the usual “a woman got harassed and therefore Section 230 must die, also women are whores” hot take he typically does.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re:

Why?

Having less opposition to Section 230 is a good thing.

If John Smith or anybody else with a dumb “Section 230 must die take” just didn’t butt in with a crappy excuse, we’d all be better off.

That a good position exists is not a reason to validate the existence of a shitty diametrically opposed position purely for bothsiderism.

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