Media Matters’ Very Strong Response To Elon Musk’s Very Dumb Lawsuit

from the wrong-place,-wrong-argument,-wrong-everything dept

Last fall, we detailed the many, many, many, many problems of Elon Musk’s absolutely bullshit ridiculous lawsuit against Media Matters. Again, if you don’t recall, Media Matters found some examples of neo-Nazi content on ExTwitter appearing next to ads from big name brands. Elon got extra mad about this because it also happened a day after he endorsed an anti-Semitic conspiracy theory trope. Either way, it led to many advertisers pulling their ads.

Rather than being a “free speech absolutist” like he pretends he is, Musk decided to sue Media Matters for its free speech. In that lawsuit, ExTwitter admits that what Media Matters saw actually happened (which basically torpedoes the lawsuit). Their complaint was (1) that Media Matters had to take some steps to see those ads, (2) most users would not take those steps, and (3) that people read Media Matters’ article to imply that most users would also experience the same thing (even though Media Matters never actually said that).

That defense would have actually been a useful thing for ExTwitter to just publicly say. A perfectly reasonable and smart response to the Media Matters report would have been, “Hey, so, Media Matters followed a bunch of Nazis and kept reloading until they saw some ads, and that’s something we’re constantly working on and trying to improve for our advertising partners, but it’s an impossible task to make sure that never happens. It’s extremely rare and is unlikely to happen for most people, and we’re continuing to work on improving.”

Or something like that. Instead, Elon decided to sue. In Texas (despite none of the parties being there), while admitting that everything Media Matters wrote was accurate, but they just didn’t like the way that Media Matters went about getting that info and how people interpreted it. But the way that Media Matters got the info (following Nazis and then reloading) is very much allowed by the system. If ExTwitter doesn’t like that, it (1) shouldn’t platform Nazis or (2) shouldn’t allow you to follow Nazis or (3) shouldn’t allow you to reload. But it does all three, so it really can’t complain.

Anyway, Media Matters has now filed its motion to dismiss. I had been a little nervous when Media Matters hired the Elias law firm to handle this, as they’re mostly focused on election law, not these kinds of free speech cases. But they also brought on some excellent free speech lawyers, including Ted Boutrous from Gibson Dunn. It’s a very strong filing.

The biggest and most obvious thing: what the fuck is this doing in Texas:

This Court lacks personal jurisdiction over Defendants Media Matters for America (“Media Matters”), a Washington, DC-based media organization, and its Maryland-based investigative reporter Eric Hananoki. Plaintiff X Corp. (“X”) sues for statements made by Mr. Hananoki in an article published on the Media Matters website. But it is blackletter law that a statement made on a passive website—one that just posts information that people can see—cannot support specific jurisdiction in Texas simply because readers in Texas could access the statement as easily as readers in other states. And this is all X alleges—that it has lost favor with some unspecified number of advertisers and individuals, some unspecified number of which are located in Texas, because of statements Defendants made on the internet.

X does not and cannot allege a single fact supporting jurisdiction over either Defendant. X does not allege that Media Matters or Hananoki are “at home” in Texas. It does not allege that Media Matters or Hananoki performed any act in Texas. It does not allege that Media Matters or Hananoki specifically directed any statement toward a Texas audience, used Texas sources in drafting any statement, or even mentioned Texas in any statement. X has thus failed to carry its burden to show personal jurisdiction over Defendants.

For these same reasons, venue is also improper in this Court. Plaintiffs may sue defendants only in courts where the basic constitutional requirements for personal jurisdiction and the limitations imposed by the federal venue statutes are met. These include, at a bare minimum, adequate contacts with the forum for the defendant to reasonably anticipate being haled into court there. This case does not come close to clearing that threshold. Neither party is based in Texas and the allegations at issue in this case have zero connection to Texas. X has thus failed to provide any convincing justification for litigating this dispute in Texas. On this basis alone, this Court should dismiss the complaint under Federal Rule of Civil Procedure 12(b)(3).

In all reality, the court should dismiss it on this point alone. It’s obvious that the case has no business being in Texas and that the court has no jurisdiction over the defendants’ actions.

But, if the court decides to ignore all that, the underlying case is also bullshit. The claims of contract interference? That’s not how this works:

X’s complaint wholly fails to plead—never mind plausibly allege—basic elements of its claim for interference with contract. See Compl. ¶¶ 42–44 (First Cause of Action). Under Texas law, “[t]he elements of tortious interference with existing contractual relations are ‘(1) an existing contract subject to interference, (2) a willful and intentional act of interference with the contract, (3) that proximately caused the plaintiff’s injury, and (4) caused actual damages or loss.’” Nix v. Major League Baseball, 62 F.4th 920, 934 (5th Cir. 2023) (quoting Prudential Ins. Co. of Am. v. Fin. Rev. Servs., Inc., 29 S.W.3d 74, 77 (Tex. 2000)), cert. denied, 144 S. Ct. 165 (2023). X fails to adequately plead at least the first three elements.

Off the bat, X fails to allege “an existing contract subject to interference”—the very first element. Nix, 62 F.4th at 934. Indeed, the complaint does not even use the word “contract” until it makes its legal allegations in the First Cause of Action, see Compl. ¶¶ 42–44, and nowhere alleges that any advertisers had any obligation to place advertisements on X for a specified term or up to a minimum spend. Because X has simply “not identified a written or an enforceable oral contract with” any advertiser, there is no basis to infer that X’s advertisers “had a contractual obligation to continue using [X’s] services.” Rimkus Consulting Grp., Inc. v. Cammarata, 688 F. Supp. 2d 598, 675 (S.D. Tex. 2010). X cannot sustain its first claim without alleging the existence of such a contract. Id. at 674 (“A cause of action for tortious interference with a contract will not lie in the absence of a contract.” (collecting cases))

Merely claiming that certain advertisers purchased advertising space on X in the past—and anticipating they would continue to do so in the future—is not enough to plead an interference with contract claim under Texas law. See Amey v. Barrera, No. 13-01-00130-CV, 2004 WL 63588, at *10 (Tex. App.—Corpus Christi Jan. 15, 2004, no pet.) (concluding “there were no contracts subject to interference” where third parties could “continue buying” products from a vendor so long as they wished but “could change vendors at any time”). X has made no allegation that it had “a legal right to future performance” from its advertisers under a contractual obligation, and instead “just [had] a hope” that advertisers “will continue” to purchase from it in the future. Restatement (Third) of Torts: Liab. for Econ. Harm § 17 (2020). X cannot state an interference with contract claim for “benefits that [X] hoped to receive but on which [X] had no right to insist.”

How about the “business disparagement” claim that some people pretended was a defamation claim. In the complaint, we noted that before the claims, the complaint made it out like this was a “defamation” case, but never actually made a defamation claim. Some people argued that because there’s a “business disparagement” claim that’s the same thing. The two are similar, but they are not the same. And, either way, nothing in the complaint supports a business disparagement claim (which has a very high bar):

X’s business disparagement claim cannot survive because X cannot plausibly allege that Defendants’ statements are false. Broughton, 2010 WL 3056862, at *11. X never claims in the complaint that Defendants fabricated the images reproduced in their articles. Far from it: X expressly acknowledges (as it must) that it is possible for the platform to display advertisements next to extremist content, even as it claims these pairings are “rare.” See Compl. ¶¶ 7, 13, 35; see also ¶ 6 (indicating that one percent “of X’s measured ad placement in 2023 [] appeared adjacent to content [not] scoring above the Global Alliance for Responsible Media’s brand safety floor”).

X’s only quarrel appears to focus on how often these pairings occurred and whether they are “organic,” but nothing in the complaint—let alone the disputed articles—suggests that Media Matters or Mr. Hananoki opined on the overall quantity of pairings. Furthermore, if X’s supposed safeguards worked, id. ¶ 25, it would have been impossible for Defendants to “exploit[] . . . X’s user features” to bring about the pairings, id., since Defendants have no authority or control over X, its algorithm, or its advertisement placement. X’s allegation, therefore, that Defendants “created” the pairings, id. ¶ 26, is simply not plausible.

Also, the whole actual malice thing:

Actual malice requires proof that the defendant made a statement “with knowledge that it was false or with reckless disregard of whether it was true or not.” New York Times, 376 U.S. 254 at 279–80). Even where statements are “not strictly true,” if they are “substantially so and not made with reckless disregard of the truth,” there is no actual malice. BDO Seidman LLP v. Alliantgroup, L.P., No. H-08-905, 2009 WL 1322555, at *12 (S.D. Tex. May 11, 2009).

Given that X does not plausibly allege that Defendants’ statements were false, it necessarily follows that X cannot plausibly allege that Defendants “knew [their] statements were false.” Rimkus Consulting Grp., 688 F. Supp. 2d 598 at 671. But even beyond that truism, X fails to allege any facts that could plausibly support a finding that Defendants acted with actual malice; instead, X relies on nothing more than conclusory statements, contending, for example, that Defendants’ statements were “not true and, Media Matters knew it.” Compl. ¶ 25. But this recitation does “not allow the court to infer more than the mere possibility of wrongdoing” and is not enough to state a proper claim. Moser v. Omnitrition Int’l Inc., 2018 WL 1368789, at *2 (N.D. Tex. Mar. 16, 2018) (quoting Ashcroft v. Iqbal, 556 U.S. 662, 678 (2009)).

There’s more, but you get the point. The case was garbage from the start, and the motion to dismiss explains why. I’m guessing the most likely move is to dismiss over the jurisdiction issue, followed by Musk appealing to the 5th Circuit, where Calvinball takes over and the court will probably make a mockery of every precedent applicable here, because that’s just how the 5th Circuit works.

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Comments on “Media Matters’ Very Strong Response To Elon Musk’s Very Dumb Lawsuit”

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That One Guy (profile) says:

'Everything they've said is fractally wrong' as a legal filing

‘This case has no business being filed in this jurisdiction but even if it was the legal claims inside would still be groundless trash with no legal foundation to rest upon and even less connection to reality’ makes for an ever so delightful slap-back to such an obvious SLAPP lawsuit filed by someone who positively loathes free speech.

There’s more, but you get the point. The case was garbage from the start, and the motion to dismiss explains why. I’m guessing the most likely move is to dismiss over the jurisdiction issue, followed by Musk appealing to the 5th Circuit, where Calvinball takes over and the court will probably make a mockery of every precedent applicable here, because that’s just how the 5th Circuit works.

When the only way your case can last under even the most trivial legal scrutiny is if it’s in front of judges so insane, corrupt or both that silly things like ‘legal precedent’ and ‘constitutional rights’ go right out the window that’s a pretty big tell that your case is completely lacking in merit.

wshuff (profile) says:

Re:

“When the only way your case can last under even the most trivial legal scrutiny is if it’s in front of judges so insane, corrupt or both that silly things like ‘legal precedent’ and ‘constitutional rights’ go right out the window that’s a pretty big tell that your case is completely lacking in merit.”

But it fully explains why Elon filed the case in Texas.

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Matthew M Bennett says:

The strength of a lawsuit does not depend on how much you like the participants.

And you’re lying about this case

In that lawsuit, ExTwitter admits that what Media Matters saw actually happened (which basically torpedoes the lawsuit)

NOt quite, the the suit says that A) they took great pains to manufacture the result. B) Much more importantly they wrote articles saying that these results came about organically which is a lie. That is the lie, that they are suing over.

How about the “business disparagement” claim that some people pretended was a defamation claim.

It is essentially the same, certainly to laymen, no one would say “we’re going to file a business disparagement case Monday morning”, no one would know what he meant. You only make a big deal of this cuz you’re really desparate to make Musk look stupid.

Hey, Remember when you lied about the timeline to make it look like Amazon censored some books due to Buzfeed, and not rather obviously cuz the White House told them to? And then pointlessly ad hominem’d Jim Jordan for 1000 words? Man you, sure showed me that “Critical thinking”!

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re:

1.

You seem to misunderstand organically. The results are organic because they didn’t do anything that modified twitter. They only used it as they were allowed to to get results.

2.

Legal words matter. Saying something is x instead of y is very important in the legal world. Anyone refusing to understand that is at fault for their own failure to learn the difference.

  1. Twitter supports nazis.

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Matthew M Bennett says:

Re: Re: Re:2

Do you deny that after enough page loads that those users could see ads from companies next to nazi content?

Basically, yes. Musk has maintained that it is more or less impossible for user using the site normally (i.e organically) to make that happen. Media Matters was NOT using the site in a normal fashion, they actually trained the algo to generate exactly that result for them, on purpose.

And then, much more importantly, they lied about it. THAT’S the important bit.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:3

Every time you say someone lied it seems you are either making shit up (ie lying) or can’t grok what actually happened or what was said.

Heck, you have even called people liars for having opinions you didn’t like.

When it comes to defending Musk, I’m surprised you aren’t in blinding pain from the massive rug-burns you must be sporting by know. It’s typical of people like you who desperately want to be relevant, you ignore or can’t see the obvious flaws in people that you think belong in your “in-group”. You’ll debase and demean yourself at every opportunity in the defense of your “in-group”, coming off as irrational and unhinged.

Every accusation you make is just one massive projection.

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Matthew M Bennett says:

Re: Re: Re:6

Then you’ll have no trouble doing it here.

Oh, no, because you are far, far less reasonable than a court of law. Quite on purpose in fact.

I just frankly am not interested in trying to define the term just to have you strawman and goal post move all night. You don’t even understand Masterpiece Cakeshop was about compelled speech even tho that was plainly spelled out in the verdict.

But determining “Normal”, “Routine”, “Common business practice” are all fairly routine parts of court cases. And what media matters did was NOT, and they portrayed it as if it was.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7

Oh, no, because

What I’m hearing is “I can’t do it because I won’t be able to do it in a way that steelmans my argument”. What I’m guessing is that you know I’ll tear into any definition you’ll give me⁠—no matter how reasonable you believe it to be⁠—because your arguments about what constitutes the “normal” behavior of Twitter users will depend on your limited perception of how someone uses Twitter in lieu of any actual hard stats about Twitter usage at a large enough scale to be statistically significant. In the end, “normal” is an arbitrary number meant to reflect some form of statistical average. All you would have is anecdotes, and that isn’t hard data.

You don’t even understand Masterpiece Cakeshop was about compelled speech

Are you sure about that?

what media matters did was NOT, and they portrayed it as if it was

All Media Matters did was show that it was possible to find ads next to pro-Nazi content on Twitter. It never said this was “routine” or “normal” in any way⁠—only that it was a possibility under certain circumstances. Did Media Matters use Twitter in a way that heightened the probability of seeing ads next to pro-Nazi content? Sure, I can believe that. But whether Media Matters somehow gamed the system or came across the results organically, that it got those results is still a credible statement of fact unless Elon Musk/Twitter can prove otherwise.

That One Guy (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:8 'This was WAY easier than that article painted it as...'

All Media Matters did was show that it was possible to find ads next to pro-Nazi content on Twitter. It never said this was “routine” or “normal” in any way⁠—only that it was a possibility under certain circumstances

As a follow-up article noted they actually did far more than that, or at least Elon did by suing them, as a bunch of people popped up to test the claims and ending up demonstrating that to the extent Media Matters’ article might have been misleading it was in making it seem like it was even remotely difficult to find ads for major brands next to abhorrent content.

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Matthew M Bennett says:

Re: Re: Re:8

What I’m hearing is “I can’t do it because I won’t be able to do it in a way that steelmans my argument”

I sorta don’t care what you’re hearing, you’re an idiot. Determining what is “normal” is pretty routine for courts, but they also spend a lot of time at it, hours or days depending, and I definitely have no wish to argue it out with you, cuz, y’know, you’re an idiot.

Are you sure about that?

Yeah man, I really am. I was thinking of that discussion in particular, and making fun of you for it. Like you actually quoted shit that directly contradicted you, it was amazing.

All Media Matters did was show that it was possible to find ads next to pro-Nazi content on Twitter.

That’s not true at all, actually.

It never said this was “routine” or “normal” in any way

Yes, yes they did, in fact that is specifically what they are being sued for.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:9

you actually quoted shit that directly contradicted you

No, I didn’t. My position on the matter has long been on the record, and it wasn’t anything like the one you attribute to me as a means of strawmanning my position.

That’s not true at all, actually.

And yet, not only does Media Matters have the screenshots with which it can back up its claims, but people wholly disconnected from Media Matters were easily able to find pro-Nazi content on Twitter with a simple hashtag search. So…which part isn’t true, again?

yes they did

Prove it.

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Matthew M Bennett says:

Re: Re: Re:10

My position on the matter has long been on the record,

Yes! You have been consistently wrong in the exact same way for a long time. I’m long past explaining it to you, I can’t understand it for you, but you will straight up share quotes that say the exact opposite of what you’re claiming and crow like you won the argument and it’s kinda watching a mentally impaired person be proud of soiling himself. It’s funny, but you feel bad.

And yet, not only does Media Matters have the screenshots with which it can back up its claims

Yes…cuz they engineered them. Which isn’t really the issue, so much as they pretended those results occurred organically.

*Neo-nazis, not “nazis”, but you understand the allegation is NOT whether there are neo-nazis on twitter, right? Did you not read closely what you just wrote, was this just another one of your attempts at goal post shifting, or Do you not understand what the accusations being made are, at all?

yes they did

Prove it.

Apparently you don’t even understand what we’re arguing about so not going to bother with that.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:11

you will straight up share quotes that say the exact opposite of what you’re claiming

Every quote I shared from the Colorado Court of Appeals ruling backs up my interpretation of the case: Instead of being about compelled speech (i.e., any decorations on the cake), it was about compelled service (i.e., selling a basic-ass wedding cake regardless of decorations) from a public-facing business. That SCOTUS kicked the can down the road by caring more about the anti-religious sentiment of one of the people who originally heard the case doesn’t change that.

Yes…cuz they engineered them. Which isn’t really the issue, so much as they pretended those results occurred organically.

Two things.

  1. Even if they engineered the results, that the algorithms could be gamed to engineer those results is more of a problem for Twitter than it is for Media Matters.
  2. Where in the article did they claim that the results occurred “organically”, through “normal use”, or in any other way of phrasing that claim?

you understand the allegation is NOT whether there are neo-nazis on twitter, right?

The allegation is that Media Matters lied about finding ads next to pro-Nazi content on Twitter, yes. And sure, Twitter will have an easy time of proving Media Matters wrong now, since it has obviously had time to change the system so the algorithm can’t be trained with the same method(s) that Media Matters used. But until and unless Musk can prove that Media Matters knowingly lied and lied with malice about that experiment and its results, he doesn’t really have a case.

you don’t even understand what we’re arguing about

Every accusation, a confession.

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Matthew M Bennett says:

Re: Re: Re:12

Instead of being about compelled speech (i.e., any decorations on the cake), it was about compelled service (i.e., selling a basic-ass wedding cake regardless of decorations) from a public-facing business.

Simply incorrect. In fact it was continuously hammered home that CO was chasing after them because of the speech.

That SCOTUS kicked the can down the road

You’re right, it doesn’t change that you have the case ass backwards.

Even if they engineered the results, that the algorithms could be gamed to engineer those results is more of a problem for Twitter than it is for Media Matters.
Where in the article did they claim that the results occurred “organically”, through “normal use”, or in any other way of phrasing that claim?

  1. Incorrect. THat’s not a problem at all because basically no one would do that. Hell worse case you wind up successfully selling something to a true neo-nazi.
  2. You’re trying to strawman a Ctrl-F situation for like 4th time? Super dumb.

And sure, Twitter will have an easy time of proving Media Matters wrong now, since it has obviously had time to change the system so the algorithm can’t be trained with the same method(s) that Media Matters used.

Again, you show that you misunderstand the situation. It’s not actually in dispute that Media Matters spent weeks gaming the system, I think they bragged about it somewhere. The only argument is how materially they lied about it.

But until and unless Musk can prove that Media Matters knowingly lied and lied with malice about that experiment and its results, he doesn’t really have a case.

So he very obviously has a case, then? Cuz all that is quite cleanly laid out in the complaint.

I like that a lot of your arguments seem to boil down something like “He hasn’t proven it in court, yet, so obviously he cannot prove it in court”.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:3

… Lol.

It’s either impossible or not.

But thanks for confirming that yes it’s possible.

Please do tell how they did not use it in a normal fashion?

They made an account. They used builtin features to follow users. They hit refresh.

The only thing they did is speed up the chance of finding a result.

What you are trying to argue is that flipping a coin 5000 times in a row is invalid.

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Matthew M Bennett says:

Re: Re: Re:6

Um.. Yes that is exactly how it works. Impossible is a true or false, it’s the very definition of the word. Maybe learn English?

No, no that’s not how it works. Is impossible a binary? Sure. Does that have anything to do with this case? No.

You are attempting to say that if it was possible therefore Media Matters accusation was reasonable and non-defamatory. That’s simply not true, but you could have saved some time by making that claim so I could laugh at you rather than trying to back me into it with a false (as in misapplied) “Yes/no” question.

It’s not so much that MEdia Matters rigged a convoluted system to encourage a misleading result (thought that’s pretty bad) it’s that they lied about it and pretended the results came about through normal usage which they absolutely did not.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:7

“Musk has maintained that it is more or less impossible for user using the site normally (i.e organically) to make that happen.” – You

This statement cannot be true. Either it is possible, or it is false.

The problem here is that you are too fucking stupid to use words correctly. Rather than acknowledge something as simple as you used the wrong word here you are just making yourself look dumber and dumber.

“You are attempting to say that if it was possible therefore Media Matters accusation was reasonable and non-defamatory. That’s simply not true,”

Defamation? You mean the thing they aren’t being sued for.

And actually yes that’s exactly how this all works. Things are either true or false. If things were false, then pedo man can prove it and would of said so in their lawsuit. If things are true then there is no legal basis for suing them because they reported fact.

“It’s not so much that MEdia Matters rigged a convoluted system to encourage a misleading result (thought that’s pretty bad) it’s that they lied about it and pretended the results came about through normal usage which they absolutely did not.”

Please do list out exactly what lies you believe they made. Please define exactly what YOU believe is not normal usage.

They did these 3 things that only hackerman can do:
1.Create an account on twitter
2.Follow nazi accounts.
3.Hit f5.

Oh the hacks!

What does this do? Oh it refreshes the page doing nothing more than exactly what real users do visiting a website. The only thing at play here is probability which they did nothing more than speedup.

Your idiotic whining about this is like complaining that flipping a coin 5000 times in a row isn’t a reliable test because real people wouldn’t stand there and flip a coin that much at once.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:

It doesn’t matter if Media Matters used the algorithms to their advantage by following people who post that content, cause the initial promise was ads would not appear next to that content period. The fact it would logically be seen by the people that consume that content doesn’t magically exempt that original promise.

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Matthew M Bennett says:

Re: Re: Re:2

So it’s just a poorly engineered and easily manipulated platform?

I suspect you have no idea about engineering of any form, but no, not “easily”. I think they spent many weeks training this thing?

Also, why would someone want to do that? What do you mean “Easy manipulated”? To what purpose? This is only for results to that purpose. The ONLY reason to do such a thing is take screenshots and try to smear Musk. That’s it. There’s no particular “vulnerablility”. It’s not changing what is shown to anyone ELSE.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3

The ONLY reason to do such a thing is take screenshots and try to smear Musk.

If the fact of “pro-Nazi content is on Twitter regardless of whether it’s next to any advertising” is a smear, you’ve entered a reality where the truth is defamatory.

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Matthew M Bennett says:

Re: Re: Re:4

If the fact of “pro-Nazi content is on Twitter regardless of whether it’s next to any advertising” is a smear, you’ve entered a reality where the truth is defamatory

That’s actual idiot talk. Because even if you thought it was your job to remove every neo-nazi (seriously, stop calling them nazis) from twitter — and I don’t think you should, nor does Musk, nor did OldTwitter for that matter — you can’t actually do so, any more than you can remove ALL kiddie porn.

So no, it’s not like that at all and you’re an idiot for pretending so.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5

That’s actual idiot talk.

And yet…

you can’t actually [remove every neo-nazi], any more than you can remove ALL kiddie porn

…you’re the one who admits that Twitter can’t actually scrub the platform clean of pro-Nazi content/users, which means “you can find pro-Nazi content on Twitter” is a certifiable fact instead of a defamatory smear. Man, how are you so bad at this.

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Matthew M Bennett says:

Re: Re: Re:6

…you’re the one who admits that Twitter can’t actually scrub the platform clean of pro-Nazi content/users, which means “you can find pro-Nazi content on Twitter”

Ok, second time now, and now I’m led to believe you think the defamatory claim was that neo-nazis exist on twitter. And no, that’s not what the lawsuit is about, at all.

Just try to have like, 8basic8 knowledge of a topic before arguing it.

Neo-nazis exist on twitter, I don’t believe they even violate any ToS on their own, and regardless always have and always will.

But that you think “Neo-nazis exist!” was a rebuttal was REAL funny.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7

I’m led to believe you think the defamatory claim was that neo-nazis exist on twitter

It isn’t. But if you’re going to act like someone saying “there is pro-Nazi content on Twitter” is a smear and decry it as a falsehood, I’m gonna point out that yes, it is a fact⁠—one to which you implicitly admitted.

I don’t believe they even violate any ToS on their own

If they espouse hate speech under the guidelines of Twitter’s TOS⁠—and I’m pretty sure antisemitism is in those guidelines⁠—they’re violating TOS and deserve the boot. Unless, of course, Elon really likes them, at which point he’ll probably have them unbanned (if he doesn’t do that himself). After all, someone who posted CSAM to their public timeline was unbanned on Elon’s say-so because Elon liked their account.

But that you think “Neo-nazis exist!” was a rebuttal was REAL funny.

You’re the one who acted like “you can find pro-Nazi content on Twitter” was a falsehood and a smear against Elon Musk. That you unwittingly admitted it wasn’t is funnier on accident than you’ll ever be on purpose.

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Matthew M Bennett says:

Re: Re: Re:8

You’re the one who acted like “you can find pro-Nazi content on Twitter” was a falsehood and a smear against Elon Musk.

Your (continued) lack of reading comprehension is not a poor argument on my part. Worse, you weren’t phrasing it as rebutting me but rather Musk and the lawsuit, making me really pretty sure that you were just badly confused and are now trying to walk it back.

After all, someone who posted CSAM to their public timeline was unbanned on Elon’s say-so because Elon liked their account.

You actually have no evidence that that occured. You barely even have hearsay. Nor did MM, which was why writing an article about it was sad.

and I’m pretty sure antisemitism is in those guidelines⁠—they’re violating TOS and deserve the boot. Unless, of course, Elon really likes them

I am quite sure that Musk does not like Hamas terrorist supporters. Yet they’re flourishing not just on Twitter but on Ivy league campuses.

Your mock outrage is so selective the military wants to study it.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:9

You actually have no evidence that that occured.

Several news articles reporting on the user in question being banned for posting some of the worst CSAM ever made and later being unbanned on Musk’s orders (if not by Musk himself) say otherwise.

I am quite sure that Musk does not like Hamas terrorist supporters. Yet they’re flourishing not just on Twitter but on Ivy league campuses.

And that excuses the seeming inability of himself and his company to handle even a significant part of the pro-Nazi/antisemitic content on Twitter…how, exactly?

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Matthew M Bennett says:

Re: Re: Re:10

Several news articles

Blog posts, and yeah all kinda repeating the same bit of hearsay. Actually, that’s how hearsay works, and why it’s largely worthless.

And that excuses the seeming inability of himself

And FB, and everyone else? I suppose it depends upon how clearly they violated ToS. But I rather suspect the exact same thing you’d want labeled “hate speech” from a white guy with a buzz cute you’d think was just fine coming from a Palestinian, and indeed that’s how the arguments usually go.

Your mock outrage is so selective the military wants to study it.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:5

Because even if you thought it was your job to remove every neo-nazi (seriously, stop calling them nazis) from twitter — and I don’t think you should, nor does Musk, nor did OldTwitter for that matter — you can’t actually do so, any more than you can remove ALL kiddie porn.

That Nazi-loving Elmo made a claim that he couldn’t possibly deliver is his failure, not Media Matters.

seriously, stop calling them nazis

No.

They’re Nazis. New or not, they’re Nazis. Everyone on the fucking planet knows it isn’t 1933, you fucking idiot. It’s called ‘a distinction without a difference.’

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:7

….you think he made a claim that he had removed all neo-nazis from twitter?

No, he was trying to appease the advertisers who told him that they weren’t wanting their ads next to Nazi content.

He failed and filed a lawsuit complaining that his design worked as intended and he’s pissed about it.

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Matthew M Bennett says:

Re: Re: Re:8

No, he was trying to appease the advertisers who told him that they weren’t wanting their ads next to Nazi content.

Ok, that part is correct.

He failed

That part is not.

He in fact made a system where it was basically impossible under normal use for those ads to appear next to that content. Media Matters went to a great deal of effort, spent weeks training the algos and were eventually able to make those ads appear next to that content. Ok…pointless in a way, but they’re allowed to do.

What they did that was defamatory was they wrote an article pretending that that manufactured result came about during normal use, how a normal user would be using the site. That unquestionably was a lie, on purpose, meant to damage Twitter. Hence the lawsuit.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:9

He in fact made a system where it was basically impossible under normal use for those ads to appear next to that content.

Again: Define “normal”, especially in this context. If you’re going to argue that point, you’ll need to define it so your argument has a leg to stand on.

Media Matters went to a great deal of effort, spent weeks training the algos and were eventually able to make those ads appear next to that content.

That still means Musk’s promise of “ads will never show up next to pro-Nazi content” was broken. Gaming the system without outright hacking it is still working within the system and its rules. Don’t hate the player, hate the game.

What they did that was defamatory was they wrote an article pretending that that manufactured result came about during normal use, how a normal user would be using the site.

Where in the article did they say this happened during “normal use”? How did they define “normal use”? How does their definition compare to any definition Twitter/Elon Musk has offered up?

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Matthew M Bennett says:

Re: Re: Re:10

Again: Define “normal”

Again, no.

That still means Musk’s promise of “ads will never show up next to pro-Nazi content” was broken.

Except, no. Again, the legally meaningful part is not that it happened but that Media Matters lied about how it happened.

Where in the article did they say this happened during “normal use”?

You’re trying to turn my description in a quote you can CTRL-F for which is not how that works. I was not directly quoting the articles. You know that, of course, it’s just another strawman.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:11

the legally meaningful part is not that it happened but that Media Matters lied about how it happened

Even if Media Matters gamed Twitter’s algorithms to place ads side-by-side with pro-Nazi content⁠—and I’m willing to grant that it did so⁠—that Twitter’s algorithms could be gamed in that way despite Elon’s explicit promises that such results could never happen kind of takes the wind out of your arguments. If Twitter’s algorithms could be “tricked” into giving up the results Media Matters got in defiance of the proclamations of Twitter’s owner, that seems like a bigger story than Media Matters “tricking” the algorithm.

I was not directly quoting the articles.

Then stop acting like you were.

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Matthew M Bennett says:

Re: Re: Re:12

Even if Media Matters gamed Twitter’s algorithms to place ads side-by-side with pro-Nazi content⁠—and I’m willing to grant that it did so⁠—that Twitter’s algorithms could be gamed in that way despite Elon’s explicit promises that such results could never happen kind of takes the wind out of your arguments

And if Media Matters had said that, and just that, then their words may not have been defamatory. But instead they wrote articles making it seem as if those results had occurred naturally, rather than in a very contrived manner. That’s the defamation.

I was not directly quoting the articles.

Then stop acting like you were.

I didn’t. You were either reading poorly or quite possibly trying to make a strawman which is basically your favorite thing.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:13

if Media Matters had said that, and just that, then their words may not have been defamatory

Show me the lie(s) Media Matters told. Like, quote the actual lie(s) verbatim from the actual articles in question. You seem to want to be Elon’s proxy lawyer, so play the role⁠—and show your evidence.

I didn’t.

You’ve been acting like Media Matters said “organically” or “normal use” in the articles in question. If they didn’t, but you keep acting like they did, you’re all but admitting that you’re lying about what the articles said so you can (attempt to) dunk on everyone disagreeing with you here and kiss Elon’s ass at the same time. Stop acting like you’re taking quotes from the articles and start actually taking quotes from the articles⁠—unless, of course, you know that quoting the articles verbatim will make you look like a(n even bigger) fool.

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Matthew M Bennett says:

Re: Re: Re:14

https://www.mediamatters.org/twitter/musk-endorses-antisemitic-conspiracy-theory-x-has-been-placing-ads-apple-bravo-ibm-oracle

Here’s the article. It’s short, they apparently haven’t bothered to change it (it wouldn’t make the lawsuit go away) and they said were “we found”. Like that happened normally. Except it didn’t.

You’ve been acting like Media Matters said “organically” or “normal use” in the articles in question

I did not. I was characterizing, not quoting the article. That was quite clear, at least to anyone who “reads good”.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:15

Here’s the article. It’s short, they apparently haven’t bothered to change it (it wouldn’t make the lawsuit go away) and they said were “we found”. Like that happened normally. Except it didn’t.

You do understand, Matthew, that saying “we found” and having idiots like you interpret that as “that happened normally” is… not in any way how defamation works.

To be defamation, you have to point to an actual statement that they got wrong. The fact that some people made false assumptions (including you) does not change the legal analysis. That’s not how the law works.

To show they lied you need to show a false statement of fact. There is no false statement of fact in that article. They said they found something, which Twitter admitted in the lawsuit that Media Matters did actually find.

The only way it was a lie was if they didn’t find that, but manufactured it. That’s just how all this works.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:9

He in fact made a system where it was basically impossible under normal use for those ads to appear next to that content

‘Security by obscurity’ is a piss-poor way to implement web security. You’d think a genius like Elmo would hire people who know that. Who knows what kind of fuckery could’ve happened if MM hit F12 (I know, it’s a bit extreme, and all of our worst fears combined) while using X? The whole platform ight’ve collapsed, for crying out loud!

spent weeks training the algos

Which wouldn’t have happened if they weren’t so easily ‘trainable’ through shitty design.

Ok…pointless in a way, but they’re allowed to do.

Which is why a lawsuit over acceptable behavior makes little sense, but please go on…

What they did that was defamatory was they wrote an article pretending that that manufactured result came about during normal use, how a normal user would be using the site.

So the security of their algorithm is based on what they think a user should do, as opposed to what a user can do. Brilliant security practice right there – expect users to behave, rather than prevent the algorithm from being manipulated. What an ideal concept entirely detached from reality!

Spending hundreds of thousands on security?
Say goodbye to that albatross once and for all! Users will simply be expected to not use a platform in any way that’s unpredictable, or not thought of in advance!

Simple, easy, and no security required! And if anyone points that out, there’s no need to spend countless hours debugging the code. Just sue the person who used it in the way you didn’t foresee!

No wonder his advertisers are running for the hills.

That unquestionably was a lie, on purpose, meant to damage Twitter. Hence the lawsuit.

It was a lie for Elmo to say that having advertiser ads next to Nazi content wasn’t remotely possible, apart from some kind of hack, which you agree didn’t happen.

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Matthew M Bennett says:

Re: Re: Re:10

‘Security by obscurity’ is a piss-poor way to implement web security.

It’s not security, has nothing to do with “web security” which is a well defined thing. Holy crap you have no idea what you are talking about.

I was going to respond to the rest of it, but it’s all nonsense. Search algos are not security. These are completely separate topics.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:11

I was going to respond to the rest of it, but it’s all nonsense. Search algos are not security. These are completely separate topics.

Yeah, sure. You’re over your head and you know it.

If it isn’t about security, then the algorithm is trainable by design. The fact it makes it easily manipulated is AGAIN, a design choice that clearly backfired.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:8

And even if Media Matters gamed the system to put ads next to pro-Nazi content, that still undercuts Elon’s claims that ads would never be found next to such content. Unless Elon (or one of his asskissers) can prove Media Matters hacked Twitter or faked the screenshots, how Media Matters managed to see ads next to pro-Nazi content matters a little less than the fact that Media Matters managed to see ads next to pro-Nazi content.

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Matthew M Bennett says:

Re: Re: Re:9

And even if Media Matters gamed the system to put ads next to pro-Nazi content, that still undercuts Elon’s claims that ads would never be found next to such content

If they had said “after weeks gaming the system, we got these results”, there wouldn’t have been a lawsuit. But they didn’t say that.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:10

If they had said “after weeks gaming the system, we got these results”, there wouldn’t have been a lawsuit. But they didn’t say that.

Then you’ll have no problem with quoting⁠—word for word, with nothing left out⁠—the parts of the articles in question where Media Matters “lied” about how it achieved its results.

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Matthew M Bennett says:

Re: Re: Re:11

You could have easily gotten these from the complaint itself, but sure, here you go you lazy ass.

https://www.mediamatters.org/twitter/musk-endorses-antisemitic-conspiracy-theory-x-has-been-placing-ads-apple-bravo-ibm-oracle

https://www.mediamatters.org/twitter/x-placing-ads-amazon-nba-mexico-nbcuniversal-and-others-next-content-white-nationalist

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:14

Yes, yes, we understand. You can’t provide the quote because it doesn’t exist.

I mean, we all knew that from the start, we just wanted to see how far your cognitive dissonance will pretzel itself while you deny that simple fact.

Media Matters did not say what you claim they said. The article that you linked to proves that. It did not lie. You wish they did, but they did not. And that is why you cannot quote the lie.

And that is why this case will fail.

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Matthew M Bennett says:

Re: Re: Re:6

They’re Nazis. New or not, they’re Nazis.

Incorrect.

Everyone on the fucking planet knows it isn’t 1933, you fucking idiot.

Incorrect. In fact, it’s been getting real 1933 real fast, including a buncha lefties excusing anti-semitism.

But they’re neo-nazis, not “nazis”, and you also don’t get to call everyone to the right of you one.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:7

But they’re neo-nazis, not “nazis”, and you also don’t get to call everyone to the right of you one.

Says who? You?

They’re Nazis. Changing their name doesn’t change what they are. I seem to remember some asshole named Hymen mentioning something along those lines. Perhaps he can explain it to you…

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:3

I suspect you have no idea about engineering of any form, but no, not “easily”. I think they spent many weeks training this thing?

Actually, I do. And if a bunch of reporters can reproduce an issue that’s supposed to be nearly impossible in a few weeks, your engineering skills are shit. Folks who have more time on their hands and a broader skill set could theoretically accomplish the same thing on a bigger scale.

Did you and your engineering prowess consider that? Or do you consider ‘they can do that, we just expect they won’t’ a solid design practice? Hopefully, you don’t work in any technology field because ‘security’ like that is what they teach you not to do in ‘Internets 101.’

Also, why would someone want to do that?

To illustrate what a shitty, easily targetable platform X is.

What do you mean “Easy manipulated”?

That a reporter, rather than a vulnerability researcher could reproduce a nearly impossible (according to Elmo) condition.

To what purpose?

It should be evident from the lawsuit, shouldn’t it?

To embarass a cocky asshole?
To drive advertising revenue away from X?
To illustrate the algorithm’s weakness?
To help advertisers make better choices on who they choose to associate with?

Did you really not know any of these things were possible? Did Musk?

There’s no particular “vulnerablility”. It’s not changing what is shown to anyone ELSE.

Then the behavior is expected? If what happened is nothing to be concerned about, a lawsuit would seem unnecessary (apart from garnering more attention with respect to X’s shitty design).

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Matthew M Bennett says:

Re: Re: Re:4

Actually, I do. And if a bunch of reporters can reproduce an issue that’s supposed to be nearly impossible in a few weeks, your engineering skills are shit.

And by that alone, I know that actually, you don’t.

That a reporter, rather than a vulnerability researcher

You understand that this isn’t a “hack”, nothing was compromised, right? Cuz those are the kinds of words you are using. No one is running an executable where they shouldn’t, or rerouting network traffic. No, of course you don’t or you wouldn’t have said this insane shit.

Then the behavior is expected?

Also no, what they did is relentlessly train the algos to show them certain content paired up. That’s not a problem per se, except that Media matters (I’d really call them more activists than journalists) went to the work of making these pairings appear, screenshotted them and then presented that as if that had come about organically, which was a lie.

a lawsuit would seem unnecessary

Of course it’s necessary. Media Matters lied, so they’re being sued for defamation (excuse me, “Business disparagement”, which yes, is the same damn thing). They’re not being sued for computer hacking which you seem REAL confused about.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:5

And by that alone, I know that actually, you don’t.

Right. Ignore the content of what I say, and focus on your claim that I don’t know what I’m doing. Tell me you glossed over every point I made without actually saying so. I’m sure no one will notice.

You understand that this isn’t a “hack”, nothing was compromised, right?

Right. Everything was working as Elmo expected. Hence, the lawsuit…Brilliant!

Also no, what they did is relentlessly train the algos to show them certain content paired up.

And that could happen only if the algorithm was ‘trainable’ to do so. In other words SHITTY DESIGN, as I’ve already pointed out.

That’s not a problem per se,

I agree. Which begs the question of why a lawsuit would need to be filed for something that happened and was foreseeable per the design. You should beg the same.

then presented that as if that had come about organically, which was a lie.

Admitting it happened as described in the lawsuit, that ‘it’ was not a problem, per se (your words), not being a ‘hack’ (again, your words), but not ‘organic?’ Yeah, you should re-read that word salad of yours and figure out what ‘it’ was.

They’re not being sued for computer hacking which you seem REAL confused about.

I’m not the one conflating an algorithm that’s trainable by design with an inability to produce undersirable results.

Seriously Matt, some things just shouldn’t be worth your time. This is just another example. Stick to worrying about people calling you a Nazi rather than a neo-Nazi. It’s a far better position than the weak minded simpleton shit you regurgiated as a ‘response.’

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Matthew M Bennett says:

Re: Re: Re:6

Ignore the content of what I say

I am directly attacking the content of what you said, and thereby concluding you have no idea what you are talking about.

Which begs the question of why a lawsuit would need to be filed for something that happened

Because they lied about it. It’s a defamation suit.

Seriously Matt, some things just shouldn’t be worth your time

Yeah, you’re not worth my time. You’re trying to conflate several disparate things and then sound smug about it, and it either means you don’t understand much or you’re just very bad at gaslighting, I dunno and I don’t care.

Media Matters manufactured a result which was fine but lied about it which was not. There’s nothing more to say about but holy fuuck are you gonna to anyway.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:7

Media Matters manufactured a result which was fine but lied about it which was not

Truth is a defense in defamation. But Elmo isn’t the first to try the FAFO method of suing someone that pointed out a flaw in a company’s software design. It trains the users to just release them into the wild, rather than point them out to the developer.

It’s a bold strategy, Cotton. Let’s see how it plays out with the advertisers.

Yeah, you’re not worth my time.

Yet, here you are.

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Matthew M Bennett says:

Re: Re: Re:10

https://www.mediamatters.org/twitter/musk-endorses-antisemitic-conspiracy-theory-x-has-been-placing-ads-apple-bravo-ibm-oracle

https://www.mediamatters.org/twitter/x-placing-ads-amazon-nba-mexico-nbcuniversal-and-others-next-content-white-nationalist

The lie is in that they pretended that this just happened. They say they “found”. But they didn’t, they had to engineer it.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:11

They say they “found”. But they didn’t, they had to engineer it.

Just so we’re clear: The “lie” is that after attempting to engineer results, they “found” the results they were looking for rather than the kind of results promised by Elon Musk? Because it seems to me that if Media Matters could train the algorithm⁠—which is designed to be trained, mind you!⁠—such that it would present ads next to pro-Nazi content, that it was able to get those results should matter more than the methodology, since Elon promised that such results would never happen.

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Matthew M Bennett says:

Re: Re:

Legal words matter. Saying something is x instead of y is very important in the legal world.

I think this is fancy cuz you’re trying to pretend that Musk’s announcement were “legal words”, which lol, no they weren’t. It’s functionally the same thing as most people think of it.

Twitter supports nazis.

The only thing that would keep you from being sued over this (besides that you’re a coward) is that no nazis exist.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:

The only thing that would keep you from being sued over this (besides that you’re a coward) is that no nazis exist.

I won’t be surprised to learn that you’re just a crappy xAI troll based on Grok.
That’s certainly what they’ve could came up after firing all the engineers.
Sorry, but you’re just a waste of electricity.

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Matthew M Bennett says:

Re: Re: Re:2

Please elaborate. Have you not seen the various people praising Hitler, waving Nazi flags, chanting Nazi slogans, and echoing Nazi rhetoric? What are they if not Nazis?

The correct term for those people is “neo-nazi” and according to FBI statistics they’re a pathetically smally group of people, like 6 thousand, nation wide.

This vserus where you just mean, very literally “anyone to the right of bernie sanders”

Yeah, nazis aren’t a thing.

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Matthew M Bennett says:

Re: Re: Re:4

There is nothing new about their rhetoric or their ideology. They may not be members of the Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei, but they are Nazis all the same.

No, no they aren’t, actually. Moreover, they barely even exist and you fuuckers will pretend they are half the country. It is all. so. tiring.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:3

So you’re being pedantic to derail the issue, in other words. In my experience, when someone uses the term “Nazi” to refer to someone in the modern age, they mean “neo-Nazi.” So please substitute “neo-Nazi” whenever you see someone say something along the lines of “Twitter enables Nazis” from now on.

And while I can’t speak for other Anonymous Cowards here, when I call someone a [neo-]Nazi I mean exactly that: someone active today who espouses an ideology vastly similar to that of the NSDAP and/or unironically uses their rhetoric and/or images. I consider Musk to be a horrible person as well as someone who knowingly enables [neo-]Nazis, for example, but not a [neo-]Nazi himself.

As for your numbers, my experience is that people are more concerned with ideology than membership in any sort of [neo-]Nazi organization. If the individual praises Hitler, waves Nazi flags, parrots Nazi rhetoric, and chants Nazi slogans, but is not formally a member of any sort of [neo-]Nazi organization, they are still for all intents and purposes a [neo-]Nazi.

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Matthew M Bennett says:

Re: Re: Re:4

So you’re being pedantic to derail the issue, in other words. In my experience, when someone uses the term “Nazi” to refer to someone in the modern age, they mean “neo-Nazi.”

No, because you dumbasses DO NOT mean that. What you mean, who are trying to slur, is literally about half the country who do not agree with you politically.

You don’t mean “neo-nazi”. Those people exist, but they are an INCREDIBLY tiny amount of people. Meanwhile, you attempt to call anyone who voted for Trump (and a great of other people besides) “nazi” as if you actually thought that.

So no, I’m not being pedantic. I’m pointout out that you are a hyperbolic idiot.

If the individual praises Hitler, waves Nazi flags, parrots Nazi rhetoric, and chants Nazi slogans, but is not formally a member of any sort of [neo-]Nazi organization

According to the FBI, that’s about 6,000 people. Yes, all of them. No, no one is “formally” a neo-nazi. It’s not a club.

You’re just a hyperbolic idiot, who should be laughed at, the problem is you’ve joined in groups and tell yourself the same lie.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:5

Please read over the second paragraph of what I said, Mr. Bennett; it appears that you overlooked it in your haste to insult me. Someone is indeed being hyperbolic, but it’s not me.

For the record, the only other comments that are mine start as follows:

“‘No Nazis exist?'”

“So you’re being pedantic to derail the issue, in other words.”

Any other comments posted thus far by Anonymous Cowards are the work of other people, not me.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:7

I notice that you didn’t answer my question. As for the difference, the only people I’ve ever seen actually claiming to care about the difference are right-wing people who engage in pedantry to divert attention away from the topic at hand (oftentimes because they are on the same side as neo-Nazis as far as said topic is concerned). Perhaps you are not such an individual, but your continued nitpicking over an ultimately trivial distinction is not helping your case.

I’m only recording the number of posts I’ve made (five now) so that you don’t mistake me for a different Anonymous Coward.

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Matthew M Bennett says:

Re: Re: Re:8

I notice that you didn’t answer my question.

I did.

As for the difference, the only people I’ve ever seen actually claiming to care about the difference are right-wing people who engage in pedant

Maybe you surround yourself with idiots? Or morons that want to call everyone who disagrees with themselves a nazi (basically half of liberals)

your continued nitpicking over an ultimately trivial distinction

It’s not trivial, you absolute dumb piece of shit.

I’m only recording the number of posts I’ve made (five now) so that you don’t mistake me for a different Anonymous Coward.

You literally can post under any handle you want, that’s the solution to your problems. You could post under “dumb a-hole who thinks ‘Neo-nazi’ and ‘nazi’ should be interchangeable”, best to declare your disabilities out front, y’know?

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Matthew M Bennett says:

Re: Re:

Care to provide any evidence that the White House told them to do it?

Primarily that they made the decision immediately after meeting with the WH. That IS strong evidence, it’s not “proof”, that would probably require testimony about the meeting.

What I can say for sure is that it wasn’t because of buzfeed, the change was made 3 days earlier. And Masnick appears to have misrepresented that sequence of events on purpose.

Strawb (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

Primarily that they made the decision immediately after meeting with the WH. That IS strong evidence […]

You know “post hoc, ergo propter hoc” is a fallacy, right? I.e. not evidence.

You still haven’t demonstrated that the White House told them to do it. You’re just making a biased conclusion based on your BDS.

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Matthew M Bennett says:

Re: Re: Re:2

I.e. not evidence.

It actually IS evidence, what you are trying to say is it’s not proof, which is why you have people come in and testify. But it’s definitely evidence. It would be more than enough to get a warrant, for instance, which is sorta what’s happening here, tho this isn’t a court (yet). It’s pretty obvious it was because of the WH.

What I’m much more interested in is:

  1. It definitely wasn’t cuz of Buzzfeed
  2. MM purposefully lied to make it sound like it was because of buzzfeed.
Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3

It actually IS evidence

Except it isn’t. The timing is coincidental; to that, I will admit. But the timing, on its own, is not and cannot be hard proof that the changes were made as a direct response to a coercive order from the federal government. Since no Amazon employee or executive has said on the record that the government coerced Amazon’s changes, you have no other evidence beyond that timing (and any conjecture borne thereof) to back up your claim.

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Matthew M Bennett says:

Re: Re:

Primarily that it was immediately after meeting with the WH. But it clearly wasn’t Buzfeed, they had censored it 3 days prior to learning of it.

The much more important bit is that MM just straight up lied about timeline to give a false impression (because whatever else, it wasn’t buzzfeed).

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:3

Just the spam filter randomly delaying my comment for hours.

How does it feel to know that what you write resembles spam?

And why do you think pointing it out like you’re doing does anything other than further illustrate how your ‘thoughts’ resemble mass-produced, poorly worded English, that’s typically discarded as garbage?

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Matthew M Bennett says:

Re: Re:

“Desperate” would suggest that making Musk look stupid is difficult or unlikely.

You guys seem to have this fiction that people can just “luck into” being the richest guy on earth and successfully growing like…a dozen companies? You have your excuses for each one.

I think this has a lot more to do with the lies you tell yourselves than anything involving Musk.

This comment has been deemed insightful by the community.
Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:

You guys seem to have this fiction that people can just “luck into” being the richest guy on earth and successfully growing like…a dozen companies? You have your excuses for each one.

Considering how he is pissing away billion dollars by acting like a stupid cunt it’s entirely possibly that the companies he was involved in made it big in spite of his involvement.

Regardless of previous successes attached to his name, exTwitter is one massive failure that he alone created.

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This comment has been deemed insightful by the community.
Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3

Except you people ALWAYS say that.

And they say that because it’s true. Just a few years ago, Elon was fairly well-regarded by a large swath of people. When he started trying to get more attention, he fucked that up for himself. I suspect Elon is the kind of guy who would’ve read Robert Greene’s The 48 Laws of Power, from which this is taken:

Before his entrance into politics, the name of Coriolanus evoked awe.

His battlefield accomplishments showed him as a man of great bravery. Since the citizens knew little about him, all kinds of legends became attached to his name. The moment he appeared before the Roman citizens, however, and spoke his mind, all that grandeur and mystery vanished. He bragged and blustered like a common soldier. He insulted and slandered people, as if he felt threatened and insecure. Suddenly, he was not at all what the people had imagined. The discrepancy between the legend and the reality proved immensely disappointing to those who wanted to believe in their hero. The more Coriolanus said, the less powerful he appeared⁠—a person who cannot control his words shows that he cannot control himself, and is unworthy of respect.

Had Coriolanus said less, the people would never have had cause to be offended by him, would never have known his true feelings. He would have maintained his powerful aura, would certainly have been elected consul, and would have been able to accomplish his antidemocratic goals. But the human tongue is a beast that few can master. It strains constantly to break out of its cage, and if it is not tamed, it will run wild and cause you grief. Power cannot accrue to those who squander their treasure of words.

If Elon had taken the path of almost every other wealthy motherfucker and went about his business quietly without trying to make huge public shows of “look how awesome and rich I am”, he’d probably be more liked than he is right now. But Elon had to make himself the center of attention for whatever reason, and now a lot more people think he’s a dumbass who lucked into his fortune by investing his daddy’s apartheid emerald mine money in the right companies at the right time. Is that the truth? Well, it doesn’t really matter any more⁠—at least not to the people who think Elon is a jackass.

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Matthew M Bennett says:

Re: Re: Re:4

And they say that because it’s true. Just a few years ago, Elon was fairly well-regarded by a large swath of people

This has nothing to do with anything except that you guys will just utterly shit on anyone who doesn’t agree with you. A few years ago, Musk made clear that he doesn’t agree with you.

That’s it. THat’s the whole thing.

Elon is the kind of guy who would’ve read Robert Greene’s The 48 Laws of Power

Holy crap your fanfic goes deep huh?

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:5

This has nothing to do with anything except that you guys will just utterly shit on anyone who doesn’t agree with you.

We don’t shit on people we disagree with, we shit on people whose actions show they are hypocritical assholes. A distinction that is entirely lost on you.

You on the other hand, we will shit on for no reason at all at this stage, that is what happens to boastful stupid assholes incapable of learning very simple things.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:

successfully growing like…a dozen companies

Okay? This can be true, whether or not Musk lucked into it. It doesn’t magically make him immune to doing dumb shit, or being criticized for doing what other people think is dumb shit.

You are going to bat a lot for a guy who wouldn’t spit in your general direction if he was told you poured petrol on yourself and lit yourself on fire in his sacred name.

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Matthew M Bennett says:

Re: Re: Re:2

Okay? This can be true, whether or not Musk lucked into it.

Well, no, it can’t be true, kinda the point. Or at least is so statistically unlikely as to be impossible.

The reality is you hate him because he disagrees with you, and part of your fantasy is that he’s doing “dumbshit” just because you wouldn’t do that, which yeah, no shit.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:3

It can’t be true? What fantasy world do you live in? You can’t will reality to be different than what it is. Do you have any idea of how many successful businessmen have crashed and burned?

It sounds like you think Musk is some kind of God-king that is successful in everything he does, ie you are an unrepentant Musk-stan.

This comment has been deemed insightful by the community.
Anonymous Coward says:

Re:

The strength of a lawsuit does not depend on how much you like the participants.

Mike has already talked about how much he distrusts and dislikes the research of the defendants in this case and does not support them. So, weird for you to insist he does.

This is a weak case by any stretch of the imagination, as you’ll see when it gets booted out of court.

Much more importantly they wrote articles saying that these results came about organically which is a lie. That is the lie, that they are suing over.

No, you are the one lying. At no point did they say that the results came about “organically.” That’s something that Elon made up and you, gullible Musk-fucker that you are, believed. Because, even as you accuse Mike of deciding who he supports based on who he likes, he does not. Only you do. You are nothing but projection.

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Matthew M Bennett says:

Re: Re:

Mike has already talked about how much he distrusts and dislikes the research of the defendants in this case and does not support them.

But you see, they’re on his side. And Masnick is above all a partisan hack.

No, you are the one lying. At no point did they say that the results came about “organically.”

Lol, yes they did. They pretended that those results came about in normal use, they didn’t. Musk isn’t even the only one to point this out.

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Mamba (profile) says:

Re:

NOt quite, the the suit says that A) they took great pains to manufacture the result. B) Much more importantly they wrote articles saying that these results came about organically which is a lie. That is the lie, that they are suing over.

They absolutely did NOT write articles claiming the results came organically.

https://www.google.com/search?q=%22organic%22+OR+%22organically%22+site%3Amediamatters.org

Twitters complaint doesn’t make that either.

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Matthew M Bennett says:

Re: Re:

…..are you retards focusing on the word “organic”? I am saying that they pretended that the results appeared in normal use, i.e. “organically” I’m not saying they used the WORD “organic”.

How is your reading comprehension that poor?

This is kinda hilarious, you nitwits doing word searches and saying “No they didn’t!”

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

Well, I can promise you that I’m not focusing on the word “organic” in that comment⁠—but there is another word I’m focusing on that really gives away what kind of a person you really are and how bad you are at arguing against points of fact that don’t go your way. Guess which word that is and you win a No-Prize!

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:

It’s funny seeing you defending exTwitter with the zeal of fanatic.

What makes it even funnier is that a company buying ads doesn’t give a shit why their ads ended up beside content from nazis, neo-nazis, white-supremacists, anti-semites or any other kind of content that upsets them – they give a shit that it actually happens and they and other organizations easily replicated that behavior themselves.

You can talk all you want about “organically” or “manipulated the algorithm”, it doesn’t matter one bit – because if you can get the combination of ads together fuckhead-content just by using browser-refresh a couple of times the odds are that regular users will see the same combination organically regularly. Or you so fucking inbred you believe this only happens to people who isn’t Musk-stans?

Fuckhead.

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Matthew M Bennett says:

Re: Re: Re:2

a company buying ads doesn’t give a shit why their ads ended up beside content from nazis, neo-nazis, white-supremacists, anti-semites or any other kind of content that upsets them – they give a shit that it actually happens

Well that’s just the thing — it doesn’t “just happen”, and they very much would care where and how it would.

other organizations easily replicated that behavior themselves.

Lol, no they didn’t, unless you mean torturing the algos for weeks.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:3

Well that’s just the thing — it doesn’t “just happen”, and they very much would care where and how it would.

Oh, it does happen. How do you think Media Matters got the idea to find out if it actually happens? Because there were anecdotal evidence from random people that it happened.

And it’s not the first time something like this has happened, remember the YouTube Adpocalypse? Do you think that was “engineered” too?

When you fire everyone that is supposed to monitor things like this and making sure advertisers get what they paid for, you can’t replace those employees with a technological solution to deal with an entirely human problem that require an understanding of context.

Lol, no they didn’t, unless you mean torturing the algos for weeks.

And that folks, is a fucking lie – to borrow Bratty Matty’s vernacular.

Mamba (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

We’re focusing on the word organic because you keep fucking using it AND arguing the definition like it’s important AND saying things like “much more importantly” when discussing it. YOU made it important, and now you want to abandon that position once someone shows that you’re too incompetent to actually read.

And no, they ‘pretended’ nothing. They used Twitter, they got results, they posted results. Nothing more, nothing less.

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re:

NOt quite, the the suit says that A) they took great pains to manufacture the result. B) Much more importantly they wrote articles saying that these results came about organically which is a lie. That is the lie, that they are suing over.

Please quote where in the MM articles they say that the results were “organic”. As far as I can tell, it never says that.

Anonymous Coward says:

where Calvinball takes over

At least with calvinball your opponents are restricted to organic creatures (or imaginary organic creatures, which ever way you like reading the comic).

With Musk (And I guess parts of the 5th), there are no such restrictions on sanity. For all we know, the plaintiff could (at any time) turn into a lame floating-only version of Kerby and drift away.

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andrea iravani says:

Mike Masnick,

You look as ridiculous as Donald Trump does talking about freespeech, since you have censored so many comments on this site, including my most important factual comments with information being intentionally shielded from the public by all of you Goebells Media Propagandists.

Would you like to explain why it is that you are deliberately concealing acts of Hogh Crimes. Treason, Terrorism, Organized Crime, Crimes Against Humanity, Medical Fraud, and Pre-Meditated Mal Practice from the public? We The People Demand an explanation!

The 1st amendment does not give you the right to commit acts of High Crimes, Treason, Terrorism, Organized Crime, Crimes Against Humanity, Medical Fraud, and Pre-Meditated Mal-Practice.

Because of dopes like you, America is descending deeper and deeper by the day into a rogue terrorist failed state kleptocracy, and it is only a matter of when, and not if America ends up like other failed states tgat have remained on that course including Colombia, Nicaragua, North Korea, and the Philipines.

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LostInLoDOS (profile) says:

The responsible response

Sometimes ego gets in the way of being rational.

The correct response to this bullshite report was to show that it is correct, but far from accurate.

He could have publicly stated the fact:
With continuous dedicated intention it is possible to game the system. One must do so intentionally. 99.9% of users will never see such information. Problem bypassed. Next.

Too bad for him.

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