Funniest/Most Insightful Comments Of The Week At Techdirt

from the as-they-say dept

This week, our first place winner on the insightful side is radix with a summary of Reddit CEO Steve Huffman’s comments about the blackout protest:

“We don’t do things for free, so all the unpaid mods should get back to work” is quite the statement.

In second place, it’s miked with some additional info on the nature of the protest:

Nobody Mentions Why the Mods Are Upset

Almost all of the reporting, including here, has missed the reason why moderators are upset.

Reddit does not provide a viable way for the mods to actually moderate. The official apps are garbage which gave rise to many 3rd-party apps. These 3rd-party apps give the moderators the tools needed to provide free work for reddit. Charging everyone for API access makes the apps too costly to run.

Now, moderators will have to use the official apps slowing down their work. This will result in more spam and hate-speech, especially in the large forums.

For editor’s choice on the insightful side, we start out with Firehawke and some thoughts on what comes next:

This has become a major trust issue now. I (and I imagine a lot of other Reddit users) can no longer trust Reddit’s management to do the right thing at all– they’ve clearly crossed a ethical line with the threats alone, much less the refusal to deal with the situation with any honesty.

I think even if the protests end, this will have left enough of a bad taste in users’ mouths to want to look into moving on to a different site. I’m certainly looking at my options; about the only thing that could possibly change my mind now would be for them to do a full apology, drop their CEO, and work with the community on a more fair approach.

That’s not going to happen, clearly.

Next, it’s That One Guy with a comment about the secret shareholders of X Holdings Corp:

Strange, you’d think such a huge believer in free speech(to the point of removing the block feature on Twitter) would be proud to put his name and all the other free speech champions on paper for the world to see.

Can’t imagine why they wouldn’t want people to know who owns the platform now, not like there’s likely to be any conflicts of interest or anything.

Over on the funny side, our first place winner is an anonymous comment connecting Steve Huffman’s recent interviews with an old one in the New Yorker:

Huffman’s attitude about the contributions and free labor of the Reddit community quite clearly echos what he said in 2017 when talking about prepping for potential civilizational collapse scenarios and how he thinks community is important to survival. He recognizes the value, and believes it should operate to benefit him:

“Being around other people is a good thing. I also have this somewhat egotistical view that I’m a pretty good leader. I will probably be in charge, or at least not a slave, when push comes to shove.”

The second place winner is part of some ongoing riffing that happened in response to another comment, so we’re going to switch the order up and give the context with some editor’s choices. First, it’s Samuel Abram getting things started with thoughts on those redacted X Holdings Corp shareholder names:

Maybe all those black boxes don’t represent the 95 stakeholders of X but rather X’s one stakeholder: the monolith from 2001: A Space Odyssey.

Next, for the last editor’s choice, it’s the first anonymous reply to that comment:

HAL would run Twitter a lot better.

And that brings us back around to our second place winner for funny, which is another anonymous reply:

My god, it’s full of shit.

That’s all for this week, folks!


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Comments on “Funniest/Most Insightful Comments Of The Week At Techdirt”

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Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

There seems to be a recurring fallacy on TechDirt that supporting freedom of speech means revealing every bit of information that one would rather keep private. It does not. Supporting freedom of speech means believing that people who choose to speak should not be silenced, not that people must choose to speak rather than remaining silent.

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TFG says:

Re:

Freedom of speech is only a restriction on the government.

It is only that the government, with all its power, may not make a law that abridges the right of the citizenry to speak.

Also, “Speech” encompasses far more than the written or spoken word. It also encompasses what you will or will not allow on your private property. To whit: if you make a scene in a privately owned bar, the bar owner is well within their first amendment rights to tell you get the fuck out.

For the government to then come in and tell the bar owner he has to let you speak is not upholding your first amendment rights, it is abridging the first amendment rights of the bar owner.

The first amendment protects the rights of non-governmental individuals and organizations to determine that they will not allow speech on their property. Pure and simple.

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Anonymous Coward says:

There seems to be a recurring fallacy on TechDirt that supporting freedom of speech and supporting the freedom of people to discover and disseminate publicly visible information means revealing every bit of information that one would rather keep private. It does not. Supporting freedom of speech means believing that people who choose to speak should not be silenced, not that people must choose to speak rather than remaining silent. Supporting freedom of research and discovery means believing that people who have made information visible should not be able to use the force of law to hide it.

(Reposting as AC due to the ongoing petty harassment of the moderation queue.)

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re:

Hyman Rosen, the writer of this comment, has been warned multiple times to not be a transphobic asshole.

The owner of the site regrets that such heavy-handed measures had be done, but in the face of a serial harasser who repeatedly has ignored these warnings, and does not care that his actions have consequences

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re:

Be that as it may, the fact that I can post as AC without hitting the moderation queue renders the moderation nothing but petty harassment, and makes it harder for the people who want to deal with me harshly to do so, as witness the very fact that you needed to make a post identifying me rather than having me identify myself.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:2

It’s not punishment, just petty harassment. I don’t need to post under my own name; AC is just fine. It’s the people who might want to yell at, criticize, or flag me who are inconvenienced more.

Dealing with a court order would certainly be fun, even more so than posting here, but I think the site owner understands bogus lawsuits much better than you do.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3

It’s not punishment, just petty harassment.

Again: You don’t own this site, Mike does. Your continuing refusal to leave when everyone, including Mike, has told you exactly how unwelcome you are is harassment. You are the harasser, not Mike. You’re the one who can’t take “no” for an answer, you genital-obsessed weirdo.

Toom1275 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4

It’s telling that every single thing Hyman whines about, does not actually exist in the real world.

Woke idealogues pushing lies? Not a single example.

Sex-exclusive spaces being forced into? Not anywhere.

Mike harrassing Hyman? The polar opposite of reality.

Large generic platforms censoring based on viewpoint? Every word of that is wrong.

This comment has been deemed insightful by the community.
That One Guy (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5

Oh but that’s the best part, the things they whine about do happen it’s just they and those they side with are the ones doing it all.

Forcing themselves where they aren’t welcome, harassing people, trying to shut down others and prevent them from speaking even as they insist that they be allowed to speak wherever and whenever they want, a deviant fixation on the genitals of others including children which I’m sure isn’t sexually motivated… the whole anti-trans freakout has been one massive demonstration of ‘every accusation a confession’ from the get-go and they have been TD’s prime example of it.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

the fact that I can post as AC without hitting the moderation queue renders the moderation nothing but petty harassment

My dude. You’re the one who keeps coming here after…and let me header-emphasize this for emphasis…

THE SITE OWNER HIMSELF TOLD YOU TO GET LOST.

If anyone is guilty of “harassment” in this scenario, it’s the person who was told to fuck off and kept coming back to a place where they weren’t welcome⁠—and that’s you, shitstain.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:

Be that as it may, the fact that I can post as AC without hitting the moderation queue

Indicate that you will not recognize that your presence is unwelcome here and leave the site. Do you believe that you have the right to force people to listen to you?

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:2

That depends on where I speak. For example, I could stand on a busy street corner and speak, and the government would not be allowed to stop me even if passersby did not want to hear me.

In the case of TechDirt, the site owner has the ability to delete my posts. He does not in order to buttress his public persona of being a supporter of free speech. His doing that, and my enjoyment of telling wrong people that they’re wrong, leads to this unholy but fun situation where he tells me to go away, sends my posts to moderation, people flag my posts on sight, but I am not prevented from speaking here.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:3

You mistake Mike and the team mot instantly deleting your posts as tolerance, where in reality they have the time to check every post that is made, and will only delete posts with responses in extreme circumstances. Further you are showing anti social tendencies, in that only some form of force will get your to stop posting.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:4 ✂️

Note that, as has already happened here, the site owner eventually releases the moderated posts and they appear under my own name.

The site owner wants to be seen as a supporter of free speech, so he does not delete most posts here, but he cheerleads for the large generic speech platforms who do censor opinions based on viewpoint when they censor viewpoints he dislikes. When they stop doing that, he goes after their owners with endless diatribes.

Just like the commenters here, the site owner would like to have people believe that just because a site is allowed to censor, it is good that the site censors when the censorship goes his way. But of course it is not good. Freedom of speech is a founding value of our society, not just a legal nicety to be worked around.

And of course there’s the 🐆/☹️ thing, where Florida exercising its legal right to excise LGB✂️TQIA+ content from its public school curriculum does not draw the same celebratory “they’re allowed to do that” reactions here that the censorship of The Babylon Bee did.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5

he cheerleads for the large generic speech platforms who do censor opinions based on viewpoint when they censor viewpoints he dislikes

Yes or no, Hyman: Do you believe the government should have the right to compel any interactive web service into hosting any third-party speech that it would otherwise refuse to host?

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7

you would like to construe urging good behavior as use of force

You’re the one who keeps saying platforms should host all legally protected speech, Hyman. “Should” implies an obligation. How do you expect a platform to carry out that obligation in any way other than having the state enforce that follow-through by way of legal regulations, especially when that platform’s owners likely know that allowing all legal speech would be a death knell for the platform as anything but a shitpit?

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:9

“Should” implies a moral obligation.

Even if I accept that, you still haven’t answered my question: How do you expect a platform to agree that it should host all legally protected speech if that platform doesn’t want to become a shitpit?

woke ideologues want to impose stupid and immoral obligations upon people, which require coercion in order to be obeyed

Accusation, confession, etc.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:11

It’s telling how, instead of answering the question at hand, you spew out a “so THERE” copypasta line that doesn’t even come close to addressing the question.

“I think Black people should be rounded up and sent back to Africa” is an opinion that would fit in on a discussion board dedicated to politics⁠—or a platform that is, as you like to keep saying, a “large generic speech platform”. Assuming the opinion itself is expressed with that exact language, nothing about it could be considered off-topic or lacking in decorum. So how do you expect a platform to agree that it should host that specific opinion if that platform doesn’t want to become a shitpit of racism and bigotry?

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:12

Because it has decided that supporting the free speech of its users is more important than censoring opinions based on viewpoint. It’s the same value judgements made by the authors of the Constitution. If we don’t want the government to censor opinions based on viewpoint, why should we want private institutions to do that?

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:13

If we don’t want the government to censor opinions based on viewpoint, why should we want private institutions to do that?

Because private institutions are mainly convened with peaceful gathering, and not ongoing shouting matches when somebody keeps on opposing the group opinion. Even politicians know better that have both parties hold their meeting at the same place and at the same time.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:14

Large private generic speech platforms let everyone speak at once on every topic without the voices interfering with each other. They’re the best thing for allowing people to speak freely that we’ve ever had, except, of course, when the owners decide to censor opinions based on viewpoint.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:20

Because they support their users’ desire to speak freely. It’s the same reason that courts are finding prohibitions against performing in drag to be unconstitutional, even though the blackface-equivalent of caricaturing and demeaning women is not really appropriate to show to children without giving them the context to understand why what they’re seeing is wrong.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:22

Because they wish to be seen as supporting the ability of their users to speak freely, and consider that to be a more important value than supporting people who are eager to silence others.

I know you can’t understand that, because woke ideologues hate freedom of speech when people speak in opposition to them, but there are still a few people left who do value freedom of speech. Even the site owner here pretends to be one of them, for now.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:23

What makes you think the owners of a site/service that isn’t already welcoming to bigots and assholes would ever voluntarily decide to be welcoming to bigots and assholes who will only ever turn that site/service into a 4chan-esque shitpit?

Like, over in the Fediverse, defederation exists partly to prevent “freeze peach” instances from being able to harass users on instances where the mods don’t want bigots and assholes to do that shit. You’re not going to convince me that defederation is an affront to free speech and decent instances that have defederated from the shitpit instances should all welcome back the shitpit instances with open arms. I like the Fediverse, and I like it more when I don’t have to deal with anti-queer, anti-BIPOC, anti-furry, and pro-Nazi/white supremacy dipshits in my mentions. Blocking makes that possible on a personal level, yes⁠—but defederation makes it possible for mt instance to prevent that cancerous bullshit from even making it to me in the first place.

But sure, tell me about how I should be happy to see someone call me a faggot in my mentions. By all means, explain why I should be ecstatic⁠—or even outright fuckin’ thrilled!⁠—that my instance thinks I should have anti-queer slurs tossed into my mentions without any consequence for the instance and user from which those slurs came. Then maybe you can explain why Jewish Fediverse users should be happy about the same thing, but with anti-Semitic language⁠—or maybe you can explain why Black Fediverse users should be grateful for the chance to be exposed to every racial slur for Black people.

Go ahead and explain, Hyman. Trust me when I say this:

I’ll wait.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:24

They might not want to do that despite being urged, in which case being bought by someone who does respect free speech is the only way to get them to open up. There will always be plenty of platforms that censor opinions based on viewpoint, because there will always be people who want to silence opinions they don’t like, and people who want to participate in only those forums where their own viewpoints and no others are echoed.

If freedom were popular, there would have been less of a need to explicitly provide for it in the Constitution. And of course even that wasn’t enough, since we then got the Alien and Sedition Acts that tried to silence political speech.

A site owner who values freedom of speech should moderate for spam, topicality, and decorum, but not censor opinions based on viewpoint. That may lead some people to use the site and may lead some people to depart it, but that’s true of any business decisions. You may even be right that a site that chooses to value freedom over being an echo chamber is unsustainable because too few people value freedom. That would be sad, but the truth often is.

The one benefit of echo chamber sites is that they lead people to say what they really think in ways that open sites might not, and so provide quotes that can be cherry-picked for attack. And there are a few truly freedom-loving organizations, such as FIRE, who are able to attack public institutions bound by the Constitution or their own started principles who try to censor.

Meanwhile, anyone who uses the loathsome “freeze speech” has shown himself for exactly what he is – an enemy of freedom and the United States, and a would-be tin-plated dictator with delusions of godhood.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:25

As I suspected you would, you avoided the central point of my post to make yet another dumbassed argument for both unfettered freedom of speech and freedom of reach for the worst speech at the cost of property rights for those who own private property. For example:

There will always be plenty of platforms that censor opinions based on viewpoint, because there will always be people who want to silence opinions they don’t like, and people who want to participate in only those forums where their own viewpoints and no others are echoed.

Your problem here is in framing racism, queerphobia, and other forms of bigotry as “viewpoints” that need to be discussed by, under your logic, the targets of that bigotry. You’re essentially saying that Jewish users of a social media service should have a conversation with people who want to eradicate Jews off the face of the earth and figure out if there’s some middle-ground compromise to be found between “let us exist in peace” and “we want Holocaust II: Auschwitz Boogaloo”. And it gets worse if a Jewish person owns and operates a social media service: You’re essentially telling them that they should allow pro-fascist, pro-Holocaust, anti-Semitic speech on their service because even the people pushing that bullshit deserve to use a Jewish person’s platform for that purpose if that platform is open to the general public. If you really can’t see the problems with your own logic because you’re too busy huffing your own farts about how you’re the ultimate defender of free speech, you’re more fucked in the head than I thought you were.

A site owner who values freedom of speech should moderate for spam, topicality, and decorum, but not censor opinions based on viewpoint.

“The Jews should be exterminated” is an opinion/viewpoint. Now let’s say someone phrases that opinion on a “large generic speech platform”, doesn’t use anti-Semitic slurs to express that opinion, and only posts it once as a reply to a single tweet by a single Jewish user regardless of whatever that user was talking about. It’s clear that their post isn’t referencing what someone else said about Jewish people or intended as some sort of look into the history of anti-Semitism. For what reason does the bigot deserve to stay on that platform if the platform has a rule against the kind of bigotry they expressed regardless of form or amount⁠—which, according to your logic, is a thing that should absolutely happen because “free speech”?

You may even be right that a site that chooses to value freedom over being an echo chamber is unsustainable because too few people value freedom.

You’re implying that a site doesn’t “value freedom” if it chooses to disallow bigoted speech in its TOS. Turn that on its head and you’re implying that a “freedom-valuing” service will always become unsustainable because it values freedom moore than it values being a useable and useful service. Either way, what you’re implying is that freedom shouldn’t have responsibilities and people who value their responsibilities can’t, don’t, and won’t ever respect freedom. And that’s a big load of bullshit, and even you know it.

anyone who uses the loathsome “freeze speech” has shown himself for exactly what he is – an enemy of freedom and the United States

Dude, “freeze peach” is a bit done to mock assholes like you who believe in consequence-free speech free reach. And you do believe in those two things, let’s be clear, because you otherwise wouldn’t be defending the idea that a platform that don’t want to platform bigotry shouldn’t have the right to make that decision. You’re the one who keeps talking about how platforms should host bigotry. You’re the one who keeps talking about platforms shouldn’t have the right to decide whether a bigoted opinion can be barred from that platform. You’re the one who keeps talking about privately owned property shouldn’t have the right to bar certain kinds of speech from that property if the owners of that property open its doors to the general public.

Add that to your expressed desires to restrict trans lives to “the closet” (or “the grave”) and torture queer people into your form of “normalcy” (or “the grave”), and anyone worth a damn can see that if anyone here is an enemy of freedom, it’s you, because⁠—and hot damn, am I gonna get some use out of this one⁠—you are an anti-intellectual and functionally a conservative.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:26

As always, you want to construe moral suasion as force, so that you can (correctly) say that force may not be used. Platforms have the right to host or reject any speech they wish, and that’s a good thing, even if they make bad choices.

Large generic speech platforms should allow all opinions regardless of viewpoint because free speech is a foundational value of this country, even speech that is wrong and hateful. We have mechanisms in the law for deciding whether speech is beyond the pale – things like true threats and libel. But otherwise, it’s best when people are allowed to say what they think, even if it’s “all Jews and gays to go Hell” or “transwomen are women”.

If freely expressing opinions results in consequences beyond criticism, then freedom has been taken away. In the McCarthy era, Communism was one of the greatest evils the world had ever seen, but the government causing sympathizers in Hollywood not being allowed to work was an abrogation of the freedom that Americans should expect.

People under the trans delusion should not be allowed to force their way into single-sex spaces for which their bodies disqualify them. People who are unhappy with their sexual orientation should have the right to seek treatment in order to change it. You use the loathsome “freeze speech” because you hate the idea that free people can have viewpoints that differ from yours.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:27

you want to construe moral suasion as force

You’re the one who keeps saying platforms like Twitter should host all legal speech. If you can’t convince a platform to honor that implied obligation of its own volition, how else do you expect that platform to honor that obligation without force?

Platforms have the right to host or reject any speech they wish, and that’s a good thing, even if they make bad choices.

In a vacuum, there are no “bad choices”. A service chooses what it thinks is best for the type of community it wants to curate. Whether that community remains strong or crumbles depends on the curation ability of its moderators.

4chan allows anyone to post damn near any legal speech. The site’s regular userbase thinks that’s a good thing because it’s allowed 4chan to become “The Internet Hate Machine” (affectionate); many others think it was a “bad choice” because it’s allowed 4chan to become “The Internet Hate Machine” (derogatory). Which one of those two groups is objectively correct about the morality of 4chan’s choice?

it’s best when people are allowed to say what they think

For what reason must the right of bigots to speak freely win out over the right of platform owners to decide what speech they will and will not host⁠?

If freely expressing opinions results in consequences beyond criticism, then freedom has been taken away.

And yet, when young queer people are tortured against their will by religious fuckwits who think they can make queer people stop being queer, you’re the one whining about how “conversion ‘therapy’ ” is considered discredited and is being banned by more and more states.

People under the trans delusion should not be allowed to force their way into single-sex spaces for which their bodies disqualify them.

Hey, so, remember when you said “if freely expressing opinions results in consequences beyond criticism, then freedom has been taken away”? Therein lies the problem with your bullshit: Expressing that particular opinion has resulted in consequences beyond criticism, but you’ll never admit that freedom has been taken away from somebody because you don’t seem to believe trans people deserve any rights other than “they can only exist privately so no one has to see or think about them in public”.

People who are unhappy with their sexual orientation should have the right to seek treatment in order to change it.

Such “treatment” is ineffective and considered torture (psychologically if not physically) by its survivors. It’s anti-queer snake oil and your continued defense of it as anything but snake oil is proof that you are functionally a fascist.

You use the loathsome “freeze speech” because you hate the idea that free people can have viewpoints that differ from yours.

First of all: “Free people”? What, are we back in slave-owning days?

Second: I don’t give a fuck if people have viewpoints that differ from mine. Mike Masnick and I likely disagree on the whole Meta-in-the-Fediverse thing, and that’s fine. I think Magic Mike XXL is an incredible film, you probably think otherwise, and that’s fine.

What I have a problem with is bigotry and hatred. What I have a problem with is you acting like bigotry and hatred⁠—up to and including violence committed against those whom you want to see suffer⁠—is a mere “viewpoint”. What I have a problem with, Hyman, is the idea that you think the existence of all queer people is nothing more than a thought exercise⁠—a “question”, if you will.

I’ll give you one guess as to who else thought the existence of a specific maligned minority population was a “question” in need of an answer⁠—or, to put it how they put it, a “solution”. And then I’ll let you wonder how you ended up espousing rhetoric that puts you on the side of the oppressors and the persecutors instead of on the side of the oppressed and the persecuted.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:28

how else do you expect that platform to honor that obligation without force?

You really are an idiot, aren’t you?

If a platform cannot be convinced to change, and no one is willing to buy it to get it to change, then it will keep on doing what it’s doing, despite being wrong. In the US, the 1st Amendment gives everyone the right to speak as they wish, including having private platforms moderate opinions based on viewpoint. No one can be forced to speak against their will, or host opinions against their will, as the Supreme Court should not have needed to tell us in 303 Creative.

In a vacuum, there are no “bad choices”.

Whether something is a bad choice is a matter for individual critics to decide. No one who makes decisions thinks they’re making bad choices or they wouldn’t make them. Concomitantly, no one is required to accept the criticism, but neither are they free to silence it (assuming that the places from whence the criticism comes are not themselves owned by the people being criticized).

For what reason must the right of bigots to speak freely win out over the right of platform owners to decide what speech they will and will not host⁠?

You really are an idiot, aren’t you?

Neither bigots not anyone else has the right to speak on a private platform. This is not a question of the rights of outside parties. This is a purely internal question, of whether the platform owners will choose to support the free speech that is a foundational value of the US, or will choose to censor opinions whose viewpoints they don’t like.

tortured against their will

No one should be “tortured against their will”. (I assume the naked men in dog harnesses being led around at Pride parades are doing so voluntarily.) People who want to try to change their sexual orientation or have themselves mutilated into a semblance of the other sex should be free to make that choice. As with every other situation involving children, parents and guardians must make those decisions for their charges. Government should not interfere, whether it’s to ban conversion therapy or to ban sex-change mutilation.

believe trans people deserve any rights other than “they can only exist privately so no one has to see or think about them in public

Tanas people deserve the same rights as anyone else – to believe anything about themselves that they wish, to comport themselves as they wish, and to try to convince others that their beliefs are true. They do not have the right to force others to affirm their beliefs, to have their beliefs taught as true in public schools, or to force their way into single-sex spaces for which their bodies finally them. These are the same rights that we grant to members of other religions, and woke gender ideology should be no different.

anti-queer snake oil

All psychology and psychiatry is snake-oil, not science. Remember recovered memory, or facilitated communication? Diseases come and go according to the spirit of the times, not through science. Experiments can’t be replicated, and anything that would run counter to the ideology of the time is banned by institutional review boards, retracted on flimsy excuses, and results in career suicide for anyone not already famous as an iconoclast.

“Free people”?

People who live under a system where they are not compelled to silence about their beliefs. You would like to destroy such systems, so of course you pretend not to understand them.

you acting like bigotry and hatred⁠—up to and including violence committed against those whom you want to see suffer⁠—is a mere “viewpoint”

As usual, you argue with illusory versions of me who say what you want them to say. But in any case, no matter how sincere your beliefs, no one else is required to affirm them or act as if they are true. You can enjoy “Kink at Pride” and someone else may regard it as dangerous perversion intended to groom children into sexual playthings for adults. You can enjoy bacon cheeseburgers, and someone else may regard them as disgusting violations of the laws of gods and mortality. You don’t like other people’s opinions, too bad. You can try to convince them they’re wrong, you can try to colonize institutions to behave in the way you want them to, but in a free country, you can never get your opponents to stop telling you that you’re wrong, and then to laugh at you when they turn out to have been right (viz. France and Belgium vs. Hungary).

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:29

If a platform cannot be convinced to change, and no one is willing to buy it to get it to change, then it will keep on doing what it’s doing, despite being wrong.

And yet, you demand that a platform stop being “wrong” by saying it has an obligation⁠—moral and ethical, if not legal⁠—to host all legal speech (i.e., that it should host all speech).

No one can be forced to speak against their will, or host opinions against their will, as the Supreme Court should not have needed to tell us in 303 Creative.

Y’know, it’s kind of funny that you bring that case (and that conclusion) up, because it flies in the face of your “PlAtFoRmS sHoUlD hOsT aLl LeGaL sPeEcH!!!1!” bullshit. Also funny: She won the case, but I guarantee she’ll never put up a warning on her site about how she’ll refuse to work with gay customers on wedding sites, just like every other business in every state where discrimination against gay people in public accomodations is legal will also never own it like that. Y’all want the government to protect your bigotry, but y’all don’t want to own it because you know owning it out loud (i.e., putting up a “no gays allowed” sign) will wreck everything.

Whether something is a bad choice is a matter for individual critics to decide.

Thank you, Ted, that was the point.

This is a purely internal question

And the way you frame it makes it sound like any U.S.-based platform that chooses not to welcome bigoted speech for the sake of its entire fucking userbase shouldn’t exist without being labelled “anti-American”. Hyman Rosen, are you really going to say, out loud and on the record for the whole goddamn world to read, that you believe ALL U.S.-BASED INTERACTIVE WEB SERVICES, regardless of the wishes of their owners, must host bigoted speech⁠—including but not limited to anti-queer slurs, racial slurs, and pro-Klan/pro-Nazi propaganda outside of an educational context⁠—to avoid that label and the (possibly violent) consequences thereof?

No one should be “tortured against their will”.

And yet…

As with every other situation involving children, parents and guardians must make those decisions for their charges.

…you openly support “conversion ‘therapy’ ” despite knowing how numerous parents have inflicted that violent and anti-queer “treatment” upon their queer children even (and especially!) if those children didn’t want to participate in it.

All psychology and psychiatry is snake-oil, not science.

Numerous major medical associations around the world have given approval to gender-affirming therapy for trans people. No major medical association worth a good god’s damn has done the same for “conversion ‘therapy’ ” because no such association has ever found it to be anything more than ineffective anti-queer torture that parades itself around as an innocent form of “therapy”. If anything is snake oil here, Hyman, it’s the (often overtly religious) “therapy” designed only and specifically to rid the world of queer people.

Diseases come and go according to the spirit of the times, not through science.

Being queer isn’t a disease, Hyman⁠—no matter how much you might wish it were so you could justify quarantines, torture, and possibly even state-sponsored euthanasia for whom you would probably call “the sick and uncurable”.

People who live under a system where they are not compelled to silence about their beliefs.

You live in that system. If you’re not willing to be open about your beliefs because you might get popped in the mouth for saying what you really think about trans people around cis people, that’s your fuckin’ problem, son.

no matter how sincere your beliefs, no one else is required to affirm them or act as if they are true

And yet, you keep demanding that the entire world conform to your fifth grade understanding of biology and gender by way of demanding that society find a way to legally force trans people into using public restrooms that match their biological sex (regardless of whether that results in humiliation/violence against anyone of any gender).

You don’t like other people’s opinions, too bad.

You don’t like trans people existing in public, too fucking bad⁠—queer people will outlive every attempt you and your fascist brethren make to destroy queer people. To destroy us. To destroy me.

You come for the throats of trans people and you come for mine because your fascist allies will not ever stop at trans people. They will come for every queer person⁠—gay, bi, pan, poly, asexual⁠—and they’re already setting the stage for it. You think Obergefell is settled law? It isn’t to a Supreme Court that overturned fifty years of precedent to destroy abortion rights and just gave license to religious-based anti-queer discrimination. And if you think same-sex marriage is where they’ll stop, I’d like to remind you that until Lawrence v. Texas⁠—a mere twenty years ago!⁠—laws that banned gay people from having sex even in their own homes behind closed doors were considered constitutional. An attack on one of us is an attack on all of us, Hyman. That’s why I take your bullshit so seriously: You keep attacking trans people with the same kind of “they’re all groomers and pedos” bullshit that American fascists will gladly turn back on queer people in general (including conservative queers like the Log Cabin Republicans) once trans people are taken care of. If you attack trans people, you’re setting the stage for attacks on queer people like me.

Bring your knives, bring your guns, bring your hate, and bring your children to watch the slaughter⁠—but don’t expect queer people to go down without a fuckin’ bloody fight. The first Pride was a riot; we’ll make damn sure that if we must face a last Pride, we’ll go out the same fucking way.

You want the heads of trans people? You want the heads of queer people? You want my head in particular? Come and claim them if you dare.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:13

it has [been] decided

Who decided and what makes their decision more powerful⁠—legally, morally, and ethically⁠—than the desires of website admins?

supporting the free speech of its users is more important than censoring opinions based on viewpoint

Again: How do you expect the admins of a platform to agree that they are morally and ethically (if not legally) obligated to host a bigoted opinion if those admins don’t want their platform to become a shitpit of racism and bigotry?

It’s the same value judgements made by the authors of the Constitution.

The authors of the Constitution valued a lack of government intrusion into the speech of citizens. They didn’t say shit about privately owned spaces setting their own rules for what is and isn’t “acceptable speech”. If they did, I can’t imagine they thought “that needs to stop being a thing”.

If we don’t want the government to censor opinions based on viewpoint, why should we want private institutions to do that?

You’re asking why we shouldn’t want a service like Twitter to be able to ban racial slurs and pro-Nazi propaganda if the owner of that service wants to ban it. I’m asking you this in response: For what reason would you want to be on a platform where that kind of speech is allowed to flourish and chase off anyone who isn’t a white supremacist?

This comment has been deemed insightful by the community.
Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:5

If Techdirt were a women’s bathroom you would be the creep who refuses to leave when told.

Strange that, you keep harping about imaginary events where people force themselves into spaces they aren’t wanted but it’s something you continually do here. Perhaps you think you are entitled special treatment?

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5

Consider the following: All of Hyman’s ridiculous-ass transphobic nonsense has been debunked, derided, and dunked on so hard that his continual efforts to keep posting the same ten or so right-wing-workshopped “DESTROYED by FACTS and LOGIC” thought-terminating clichés as if they were facts ended up making him persona non grata to pretty much everyone on this site. The only reason he can still post here⁠—despite being unwelcome by the site owner and most of the site’s regular commentariat⁠—is because Mike isn’t willing to hit the killswitch on anonymous posting. Not even the usual trolls, idiotic malcontents that they are, will stand behind him on his nonsense.

Then there’s his whole obsession with the genitals of women and children, which is a whole other thing that, when combined with his unwillingness to respect people who tell him “no” and his openly expressed desire to harass trans people in public, implies more about him than I think even he cares to admit.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:2

Herman we’ve already been over this multiple times. you honestly believe that “the left” think like this are and continually mystified when no one agrees with you And you get flagged into the void every single time. I’ve seen roadkill with better pattern recognition that’s you. Mostly because they only managed to get run over once.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re:

There seems to be a recurring fallacy on TechDirt that supporting freedom of speech and supporting the freedom of people to discover and disseminate publicly visible information means revealing every bit of information that one would rather keep private.

I don’t know how you came to that conclusion. I’ve never seen anyone here support that idea.

Supporting freedom of speech means believing that people who choose to speak should not be silenced, not that people must choose to speak rather than remaining silent.

I should note that by “silenced”, most everyone here would take that to mean “silenced by the government”. You and a handful of other trolls seem to think it means “silenced by being criticised or by being booted from someone else’s platform”.

Supporting freedom of research and discovery means believing that people who have made information visible should not be able to use the force of law to hide it.

And yet, it’s right-wing dipshits like you who are more likely to support book bans, SLAPPs disguised as defamation suits, and DMCA takedowns as a means of getting rid of speech that makes the lot of you uncomfortable.

(Reposting as AC due to the ongoing petty harassment of the moderation queue.)

You brought your woes upon yourself. Die mad about it.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re:

I’ve never seen anyone here support that idea.

Whenever I post that I do not believe that it is a problem to be tracked online, or have cell phone location data recorded, or have street cameras recording views, someone inevitably asks me to post my social security number and other personal information.

most everyone here would take that to mean “silenced by the government”

And they would be wrong. Being silenced means that a generic speech platform chooses to censor opinions based on their viewpoint.

like you

As I have said repeatedly, and will continue to say, my opinions are my own. I do not care what other people say, whether or not they share some of my views. If you have a problem with what other people say, I suggest you take it up with them.

Die mad

I’m not angry about it. In fact, just as with all the other errors that abound on TechDirt, pointing out the futility of this petty harassment is itself enjoyable. It is a signature move of woke ideology to keep insisting on doing things that don’t work, after all.

This comment has been deemed insightful by the community.
Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

Whenever I post that I do not believe that it is a problem to be tracked online, or have cell phone location data recorded, or have street cameras recording views, someone inevitably asks me to post my social security number and other personal information.

I can’t help you be smart enough to process what that request actually means. Have you tried taking a class in reading comprehension at your local community college?

Being silenced means that a generic speech platform chooses to censor opinions based on their viewpoint.

And yet, those affected by such “censorship” can still speak, plain as day⁠—although not on a platform where they’ve been told to fuck off, in either cyber- or meatspace. For example: How does you being unable to post under your account because you kept posting pro–trans genocide speech against the wishes of this site’s owner somehow equate to you being “silenced”, especially since you can keep coming back and spreading the same pro-genocide speech without an account despite knowing you’re not welcome, you’re not changing anyone’s minds about trans people, and you’re only ever going to have your comments hidden for being the rantings of someone who thinks they’re so entitled to a spot on this website that they think not being able to use their account is “harassment”?

As I have said repeatedly, and will continue to say, my opinions are my own.

If by “your own”, you mean “heavily workshopped by right-wing focus groups and spread to their operatives with specific language designed to make genocidal bigotry sound cold and clinical and detached so you can look all ‘logical’ and ‘composed’ when your ideological opposition gets all emotional and shit”, yeah⁠—it’s all “your own”.

I do not care what other people say, whether or not they share some of my views.

Yes, yes, we know you don’t care that fascists and transphobes with a desire to wipe out the transgender population share your views. But if your views put you in that kind of company, maybe you should do a little soul-searching, if only to figure out why you don’t give a shit about being in the company of violent-minded hatemongers who can and will turn to using actual physical violence if and when they think they can get away with it.

I’m not angry about it.

That you keep coming back to whine about how the site you choose to harass has kept you from harassing the site using an account makes me think otherwise. That you keep coming back to this site and continually bitch about how commenters like me are trying to “silence” a great truth-teller like you⁠—who has such a weird obsession with children’s genitals that you probably approve of the dude who wanted to inspect a 9-year-old girl at a soccer game because she looked like a boy⁠—makes me think otherwise. That you refuse to leave this site, that you refuse to heed the wishes of the owner of this site, that you think you’re entitled to speak on this site, that you continually and unapologetically harass this site with your radical and violent-minded gender ideology? That makes me think you’re incredibly fucking angry about being told to fuck off and having the person with authority here back it up.

We all know you have problems with consent. Are you mad that someone said “no” to you and was actually able to fight back?

It is a signature move of woke ideology to keep insisting on doing things that don’t work, after all.

You keep coming back here in a futile attempt to make everyone here as anti-trans/anti-queer as you, and you fail every time. Not even the other trolls are willing to side with you, dipshit. On top of that, you’re also an advocate for the torturous practice of “conversion ‘therapy’ ”.

Do you like apples? Well, you say someone is “woke” for continually doing things that don’t work. If that’s true, you’re legitimately woker than anyone here. How do you like those apples, bitch?

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:2

It’s good that the term “sealioning” was invented.

Two significant parts of wokeness are woke gender ideology, that people can ever be a sex other than that of their bodies, and woke race ideology, that social pathologies present in the Black community are the result of ongoing actions of white people.

A generic speech platform supports the discussion of any topics its users want.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:3 You’re more pathetic than blueballs ever was

“A generic speech platform supports the discussion of any topics its users want.”

You forgot “large” bro

You can’t even keep your terms straight much less their definitions.

Or your sexuality.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:3

people can ever be a sex other than that of their bodies

It’s been pointed out to you before that nobody is saying this. You (and other anti-trans people) simply refuse to accept that the definition of the word “gender” is changing such that it’s no longer synonymous with “sex” but then also take advantage of the definition difference in your arguments when you switch between the words to use it like some kind of “gotcha.”

Meet Taylor. Taylor enjoys working out and a glass of wine in the evening. Taylor works in construction and has a few do-it-yourself projects going on at home. When hanging out with friends, sometimes Taylor will take it easy and meet at the bar wearing jeans and a t-shirt. Sometimes when going to a club, Taylor prefers a sharp dress and stiletto heels. When Taylor was growing up, Taylor enjoyed playing with dolls and Transformer toys as well as video games like Cooking Mama and Call of Duty.

Can you tell me what Taylor’s biological sex is? Can you tell me what their chosen gender is? Not a guess, tell me conclusively, and tell me what in the description led you to that conclusion.

If you can’t, then can you tell me why it should matter what Taylor’s sex or gender is? Because if you’re interacting with Taylor and your treatment of that person changes if you do discover that information… it’s not Taylor that changed, it’s not Taylor that is any different. It’s you.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:4

Taylor’s sex is whatever Taylor’s sex is, namely the sex of their body. People will care about Taylor’s sex because people have social, cultural, and religious taboos against mixing sexes in certain contexts, such as bathrooms, locker rooms, sports, and prisons.

Taylor can costume, makeup, behave, and have themselves mutilated in any way they like. They should not be allowed to force their way into single-sex spaces for which their body disqualifies them.

Sex and gender are the same thing. Men are people with male bodies. Women are people with female bodies. In a free society, no one should be bound by stereotypical gender roles as to appearance or behavior. Acting outside stereotypical roles does not change one’s sex or gender.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5

You didn’t answer the question, so I’ll repeat the pertinent part for you.

Meet Taylor. Taylor enjoys working out and a glass of wine in the evening. Taylor works in construction and has a few do-it-yourself projects going on at home. When hanging out with friends, sometimes Taylor will take it easy and meet at the bar wearing jeans and a t-shirt. Sometimes when going to a club, Taylor prefers a sharp dress and stiletto heels. When Taylor was growing up, Taylor enjoyed playing with dolls and Transformer toys as well as video games like Cooking Mama and Call of Duty.

Now tell us, with all the certainty you can muster: What is Taylor’s biological sex, and how do you know your answer is conclusively and objectively correct?

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:6

Taylor’s biological sex is whatever it is. I have never met hypothetical Taylor, so I do not know what that sex is, but I know that it is one of the only two that exist. We can ask Taylor what their sex is, or if we believe that Taylor is a liar, we could ask for a physical and genetic examination if we needed to know for sure.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7

Taylor’s biological sex is whatever it is.

And do you know what that sex is based only on the description of Taylor?

The problem with your evasion of the question is that it points directly to the flaw in your ideology: You can’t actually “tell” who is biologically male or female (or intersex!) only by their appearance and social cues. That means you also can’t say that someone is of a certain gender, which you have specifically said is the exact same thing as biological sex, based only on appearance and social cues. Your refusal to answer the question is a direct refutation of your ideology because your inability to answer the question means you can’t rely on social markers and appearance alone to tell you who is a man or a woman⁠—an idea, might I add, around which your entire radical gender ideology (which you share with plenty of violent fascists, radicalized misogynists/incels, and conservative Christian nationalists) is built.

[I] can ask Taylor what their sex is, or if [I] believe that Taylor is a liar, [I] could ask for a physical and genetic examination if [I] needed to know for sure.

Yes, yes, you support genital inspections for anyone⁠—including children, you sick fuck⁠—you think isn’t fitting into the rigid gender roles you want the law and society to enforce (violently, if necessary) upon everyone. Fuck off back to your TERF-friendly Discord and stay there, you ungodly freak.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:8

You really are an idiot, aren’t you? If hypothetical Taylor existed, and I could see them, I would see many visual cues as to what their sex is; for example, Dr. Rachel Levine is obviously a man. A skilled observer (think someone like “Bones” from the eponymous show) would probably recognize a person’s sex instantly. It is possible that hypothetical Taylor is sufficiently androgynous in appearance, perhaps supported by costuming and makeup, so that superficial examination does not lead to any particular conclusion, in which case more thorough examination is needed if sex has to be independently verified.

But all of that is irrelevant. People have social, cultural, and religious taboos against mixing sexes in certain contexts, such as bathrooms, locker rooms, sports, and prisons, and those taboos apply to actual sex, notwithstanding clever disguises that make one appear to be the opposite sex. If Travis is a man who has made himself look convincingly like a woman, he must nevertheless not be allowed to force his way into women’s single-sex spaces.

In a free society, no one needs to conform to any gender role they don’t want to. But there is no choice about sex. People can only ever be the sex of their bodies, that sex can never change, and single-sex spaces are based on bodies, not minds. That’s because physical reality does not care what people think, or good, or wish. It simply is.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:9

If hypothetical Taylor existed, and I could see them, I would see many visual cues as to what their sex is

They could all be cues that lead you to the wrong conclusion, though. If a trans person has completed their transition and looks like their gender in every respect but what’s between their legs (which you are never going to be able to look at without forcibly stripping them), you’re not likely to actually tell that they’re trans unless you get weird about measuring bodies and faces and shit.

And that’s the point of the question, really. The trick is that all of those things can describe anyone regardless of gender (or biological sex), and that thinking you can pick out whether someone is a man or a woman (or cis or trans) based only on appearance or social cues is a ludicrous assertion. You’re no better than the dipshit in Canada who thought a 9-year-old girl trying to play soccer needed to prove she was a girl because she had a short haircut.

The hilarious thing here is how, for all the “I can define a woman” nonsense you believe in, you really can’t define what a woman is without either…

  1. Sticking strictly with biological sex and equating that to gender, which would make gender immutable and therefore in no need of the kind of violent enforcement you say is necessary; or
  2. Employing circular logic in a van attempt to define “woman” in a way that excludes all transgender women but includes all cisgender women

…which means you’re going to do no better than people who try to define “chair” or “game” with a simplistic one-liner that’s meant to be a “DESTROYED by FACTS and LOGIC” debate-ender.

clever disguises

Tell me you think all trans people are only trying to sneak their way into opposite-sex restrooms without telling me you think all trans people are only trying to sneak their way into opposite-sex restrooms. Also: A man who wants to rape a woman in a public restroom isn’t going to go through the trouble of social transitioning and living as a woman for months, and that’s because the sign on the door isn’t a magic rune that can keep him out unless he identifies as a woman. Also also: Your whole “I can tell who’s trans just by looking at them” schtick is far more likely to “catch” gender-nonconforming cisgender women than it will ever “catch” trans women.

In a free society, no one needs to conform to any gender role they don’t want to.

And yet, your ideology dictates that gender and sex are the same, which means people must be the gender dictated by their biological sex or else they have to be tortu—sorry, given “therapy” to enforce what you believe is their natural, innate, doesn’t-need-any-enforcing gender identity.

People can only ever be the sex of their bodies, that sex can never change

Nobody here has ever said otherwise, and repeating this line like it’s supposed to make us fall to our knees and suck your perfect dick only makes you an asshole.

single-sex spaces are based on bodies

And yet, if a trans man who is walked into a women’s restroom because his body is biologically female and the law said that’s the restroom he has to use, you’d probably be the first person to cheer any cisgender women who attacked him for being in “the wrong restroom”. Also, don’t tell me you wouldn’t approve of such violence⁠—you’ve advocated for “conversion ‘therapy’ ” and you’ve made your feelings about forced genital checks (including on children[!]) abundantly clear.

My god, you really are a fucking moron. Those five rich idiots in the submarine are were smarter than you.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:10

Sticking strictly with biological sex and equating that to gender, which would make gender immutable

Yes, that, exactly.

and therefore in no need of the kind of violent enforcement you say is necessary

People should not be allowed to force their way into single-sex spaces for which their bodies disqualify them. If they try to do that, enforcement is necessary to keep them out. Violent enforcement is necessary if they refuse to leave, just as with any other trespassing.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:11

People should not be allowed to force their way into single-sex spaces for which their bodies disqualify them. If they try to do that, enforcement is necessary to keep them out. Violent enforcement is necessary if they refuse to leave, just as with any other trespassing.

Again: You’re more likely to see that violent enforcement inflicted upon cisgender women and trans people trying to use the restroom they’re told to use by law than agains trans people trying to use the restroom that aligns with their gender identity. For someone who wants to act like they’re on the side of gender non-conformity, you’re doing a shit job of being an “ally”. Like, are you going to cheer when a gay cisgender woman gets beaten because someone thought she was trans and going into the wrong toilet based only on her appearance?

That One Guy (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:12

Checking the genitals of random strangers to ensure they’re going into the ‘right’ bathroom? Perfectly okay.

The idea that someone with the ‘wrong’ genitals might be in a particular bathroom? Utter atrocity to be avoided at all (groin checking) costs.

It’s strange how downright eager the ones claiming trans people are sexual perverts are to oogle the genitals of strangers and engage in violence, I wonder if there’s a saying or some such that might describe that phenomenon…

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:13

Reminder: Transphobes want to destroy the privacy of trans people because a lack of privacy means they’ll have to obey authorities⁠—legal or otherwise⁠—against their will. That “transvestigators” (ugh) will end up doing more damage to the privacy of cis women who don’t look “enough like a woman” is a bit of a side bonus rather than a problem, at least to the assholes who want to look down everyone’s pants.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:15

Jesus fuckin’ Christ, Hyman.

At that point, I’d have burst my damn bladder or, worse, peed in my damn pants.

You truly have zero compassion for humanity.

We’re not fuckin’ HERD ANIMALS. And even those get a damn toilet. For a given definition of a toilet.

And I thought having to pay a token sum to enter a toilet was bad enough…

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:16

Once someone tried to get on a commercial passenger airline with a bomb hidden in his shoe, we started inspecting the shoes of everyone trying to get on a commercial passenger airline.

When social convention and mores are insufficient to maintain public order, more drastic techniques are needed. If the woke intelligentsia change their tune and agree, loudly and publicly, that people should not force their way into single-sex spaces for which their bodies disqualify them, the need for enforcement will drop over time.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:15

All people need to do if authorities question whether they’re entitled to enter a single-sex facility is to show government-issued ID which lists their sex.

And that guarantees that they will be hassled every time they try to use the bathroom you say they should, and probably by people who will go out of their way to hassle them as much as possible, those called cops.

You really do want to eliminate trans people from society don’t you.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:16

It’s the same problem as with stop-and-frisk. Black people feel put upon by searches that target them most, but Black people are also the ones murdering each other in numbers highly disproportional to their share of the population. Similarly, people are outraged when seemingly racist comments by police officers are revealed, but it’s police officers who are constantly exposed to the worst dysfunctions of the communities they are supposed to protect, and it’s easy to understand why they might develop jaundiced views. (The TechDirt community often claims sympathy for moderators who must examine the worst of posted images and videos and supposedly develop mental health issues because of it.)

The rights and freedoms we have are ideas that people invented. As such, there is no guarantee that elevating those rights above things like a functioning civil society gives the best outcome. It’s good when those values align, but when things go awry, proceeding on as if nothing is wrong is a recipe for disaster.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:18

Black people commit crimes in numbers highly disproportional to their share of the population. Most crime is intra-racial, so Black people are also a disproportionately high share of the victims, as we saw on Juneteenth. What is the “canard” you think is untrue? Do you think it’s unworthy to be concerned about Black victims unless their victimizers are white or police? Do you not understand what disproportionate means? Half the murderes in America are committed by Black people, who are only thirteen percent of the population.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:20

As always, you argue with illusory versions of me who say what you want them to say. Black people aren’t inherently anything. But in the United States right now, Black people commit a highly disproportionate share of violent crimes. Of course, to woke race ideologues, it is racism to point out truths that they don’t want to hear, and Black bodies dead in the street don’t matter unless they have been put there by white people or by police.

It’s bitterly funny how you claim that not letting children be mutilated will drive them to suicide, but you want to ignore actual dead children because they have been murdered by Black people, often children or near children themselves. Woke ideology is murderous poison.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:10

You don’t have to care, and they don’t have to care that you don’t care. But if you insist on intruding, you will be shown the door.

Think of it as a club with a door policy. You may think you deserve to be let in, but the staff at the door decides who enters, not you, whether you like it or not.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:11

You don’t have to care, and they don’t have to care that you don’t care. But if you insist on intruding, you will be shown the door.

If you hold a taboo and it makes you uncomfortable about something, that’s your problem, not mine. If you choose to enforce that taboo in your house, that’s your choice; it’s your house. If I don’t like it, I can just choose not to go to your house.

It’s when you start trying to enforce that taboo on people outside of your house that causes an issue and makes me ask, again, why should I care about your taboos? Why should they be forced upon society in general, which has members who don’t share them? This would also apply to businesses that might run afoul of various public accommodation or discrimination laws if their owners wanted to enforce their taboos at their business.

And as far as your “force their way into single-sex spaces for which their bodies disqualify them” line, as I’ve said before, just stop making single-sex spaces. If there’s no communal space where people are getting naked or semi-naked (I’m surprised you don’t think that is weird in and of itself), then there’s no space to be “forced into” and there’s nothing to complain about.

And finally, I’ll just refer back to one of my previous comments as another indication of just how bankrupt your arguments are — Link

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:12

https://nypost.com/2023/06/17/women-only-nude-spa-lawyer-calls-trans-activist-malignant/

Washington state has stripped the rights of women not to be seen naked by men and not to see men naked in communal Korean spas.

People want single-sex facilities, whether it’s bathrooms, locker rooms, sports, or prisons, or spas. You can try to convince them that they should not want such things, but until you succeed, if you try to have people force their way into communal single-sex spaces for which their bodies disqualify them, you should expect to see the forceful pushback you’re seeing.

The religion of woke gender ideology is like any other religion. Jews, Muslims, Hindus, and vegetarians can all refuse to eat bacon cheeseburgers, but they can’t stop the cafeteria from serving them.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:13

if you try to have people force their way into communal single-sex spaces for which their bodies disqualify them, you should expect to see the forceful pushback you’re seeing.

Sure. But that doesn’t mean they’re right. I’m curious though – for persons that have completed reassignment surgery, or persons like the other AC mentioned who have something like Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome – they’re genetically male, but do their bodies still “disqualify” them as you put it? In the case of AIS, that person might not even be aware they aren’t genetically female.

The religion of woke gender ideology is like any other religion.

Just like the religion of conservative gender ideology, right? Sure, you can serve your bacon cheeseburgers, but people aren’t delusional when they show you evidence that says bacon cheeseburgers are unhealthy.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:14

No amount of surgery can change a man into a woman or vice versa.

For truly intersex people, like men with CAIS, who look like women externally but have testicles where their ovaries would be and no, or not much, of a uterus, I would probably go with the external body, especially as those men will most likely have been raised as women, and even for sports, their bodies will match those of real women. Note that there are degrees of AIS, so many men with AIS will still have significant masculine features, and they should be limited to the same spaces as normal men.

People like that are 1 in tens of thousands, though, so it’s unlikely to be an issue that most people will ever encounter. As they say, hard cases make bad law – deciding where intersex people should go has nothing to do with allowing trans people into single-sex spaces for which their bodies disqualify them.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:15

According to you, the definition of man and woman is based on their reproductive function, and therefore whether their chromosomes are XX or XY (assuming no mutations or diseases or the like).

But then you’re being inconsistent, because first you say that even if someone gets surgically altered, that changes nothing, but in the very next paragraph you say that if someone has a genetic disorder they get a pass as long as they can meet a subjective visual assessment. That suggests to me that appearance matters to you more than genetics, and some of your other comments support that conclusion.

There are only two sexes. Gender is the same as sex. Gender roles are the social constructs. Woke gender ideologues like to say that gender is a social construct because we use the words “male” and “female” for gender, and they want to claim that men can be female and women can be male, or similar jumbles of terms.

It’s the social construct that is being talked about because the biology doesn’t actually matter in this context. There’s nothing inherent in our genetics that says a particular sex must present themselves in a particular way. There’s nothing inherent in our genetics that says boys wear pants and girls wear dresses. There’s nothing inherent in our genetics that requires single sex spaces. There’s nothing inherent in our genetics that says we can’t all go to the bathroom together or be naked in front of each other. All of that, ALL OF THAT, is entirely founded on social constructs. And like any social construct, it can change over time.

You just don’t want it to.

And who knows, maybe if some idiots 10,000 years ago hadn’t decided to make societal behavioral expectations based on what was between people’s legs, maybe “transgenderism” wouldn’t even be a thing because everyone would be able to just be themselves without being expected to fill a certain role or behave a certain way because they do or don’t have a penis.

Yes, I understand that some platforms want to censor opinions based on viewpoint. That’s not surprising. They shouldn’t want that, and if they do anyway, they should be urged, criticized, shamed, or bought to get them to change.

Yes, I understand that some groups want to persecute others based on outdated social values. That’s not surprising. They shouldn’t want that, and if they do anyway, they should be urged, criticized, shamed, or bought to get them to change.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:16

On the contrary, urging social change is great, and I have no objection to it at all. If you can convince women that they should allow men into their bathrooms, locker rooms, sports, and prisons, more power to you. Lots of things have changed over time.

What you should not be allowed to do is to force people to accept the changes that you want and they don’t. If you try, you will be resisted.

Part of our culture is the view that men will try any tricks they can to see arbitrary women naked or to expose themselves to women. We have that from ten sex comedies, from Jeffery Epstein, from subway flashers, from drunken rapists and victims in fraternities. For the most part, men’s appearances are consonant with their bodies, so the question of whom to exclude from women’s single-sex spaces isn’t difficult. But when men disguise themselves as women, then it’s the bodies that count, because men are men regardless of what they put on. In the extraordinarily rare cases where men grow women’s bodies, that’s a situation that people don’t typically encounter, so there’s no ready answer – the universe does not arrange itself for the convenience of people trying to deal with it.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:17

urging social change is great, and I have no objection to it at all

And yet, you whine like a hit dog when someone suggests that society should ban the barbaric, medically discredited, and overtly religious torture that is “conversion ‘therapy’ ” (especially for anyone under the age of 18).

What you should not be allowed to do is to force people to accept the changes that you want and they don’t. If you try, you will be resisted.

And yet, you whine like a hit dog when someone suggests that society should learn to tolerate, if not accept, the existence of trans people and protect their civil rights⁠—and you also demand that trans people accept your vision of society by either staying in the closet or dying by suicide.

men will try any tricks they can to see arbitrary women naked or to expose themselves to women

And yet, you whine like a hit dog when someone points out that there is no increase, statistically or anecdotally, of crimes involving men dressing up as/identifying as women to gain access to single-gender public restrooms and assault/rape women⁠—which is, of course, the centerpiece of your entire anti-trans “we must protect cis women from trans women (by hurting more cis women than trans women)” argument.

it’s the bodies that count, because men are men regardless of what they put on

And yet, you whine like a hit dog whenever someone suggests that a trans man⁠—someone who is biologically female⁠—be forced to use a women’s restroom regardless of the fact that they most likely look like a man and would therefore be more likely to face violence if they used the restroom that you demand they use (under threat of legal punishment or extrajudicial violence if they refuse).

the universe does not arrange itself for the convenience of people trying to deal with it

And yet, you whine like a hit dog whenever someone suggests that you keep trying to arrange your understanding of the universe, biology, physiology, gender studies, sociology, free speech, and literally any other subject into simple one-sentence statements that prove your incuriosity about the world and its many complexities.

All that whining you do whenever someone challenges you on your bullshit proves one thing: In addition to being an anti-intellectual and a functional conservative, you’re also a bitch.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:18

Banning therapy that people want to receive is wrong, whether that therapy is to try to change their sexual orientation or to have themselves mutilated into a semblance of the other sex. If you believe that some form of therapy is bad, use your freedom of speech to convince people not to use it.

Trans people should have all the civil rights they want, except that they may not force themselves into single-sex spaces for which their bodies disqualify them, have their delusional ideology taught as truth in public schools, or force other people to affirm their lies. This is exactly the same tolerance we give to other religious views, for the same reason – religion is false, yet we do not prevent people from believing it, but we stop people from forcing their beliefs on others.

People have social, cultural, and religious taboos against mixing sexes in certain contexts. Those taboos do not require any justification for their existence. You can try to convince people that they should abandon those taboos, but if you try to force them to, you will see the sort of pushback you are getting now. (It’s funny that you wrongly claim that I want to force private speech platforms into hosting certain viewpoints against their will, while you actively support forcing single-sex spaces to admit people whose bodies disqualify them. But of course, expecting any kind of logic from you has long since been an exercise in futility.)

Transmen are women, and should not be allowed to force themselves into male-designated spaces. It is the responsibility of those who own or manage public restrooms to insure that they can be used safely.

Caviling about complexity is the Courtier’s Reply. Detailed technical knowledge about tailoring is not required to know that the emperor is naked. Often the truth is simple and obvious, despite attempts by ideologues to obscure it.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:19

Banning therapy that people want to receive is wrong

And if “conversion ‘therapy’ ” actually counted as therapy and therefore had any actual semblance of effectiveness and credibility (which it doesn’t), you might have a point. But numerous survivors of that “practice” have likened it to torture and damn near ever credible medical organization you can think of have denounced the “practice” as ineffective at best. Continually trying to defend “conversion ‘therapy’ ” as if it were akin to normal forms of therapy⁠—or to gender-affirming treatment, which is an even bigger “fuck you” to trans people⁠—only ever makes you look like someone who gives no fucks whether queer people die by suicide during or after this “therapy” you’re eager to defend at the cost of those queer lives. You are an anti-inellectual and functionally a conservative.

This is exactly the same tolerance we give to other religious views

And yet, you’re the one who keeps whining about how an unscientific and overtly religious practice that tortures queer people⁠—sometimes against their will!⁠—to make them “not queer” (or dead by their own hand) is somehow worth respecting or tolerating. You are an anti-inellectual and functionally a conservative.

It’s funny that you wrongly claim that I want to force private speech platforms into hosting certain viewpoints against their will, while you actively support forcing single-sex spaces to admit people whose bodies disqualify them.

You’re wrong on two fronts here.

  1. I’m not wrong. You’ve said before that any interactive web service that doesn’t obligate itself to host all legally protected speech should be convinced to do so. You’ve never once ruled out the use of the law (or extrajudicial violence) to do so. You’ve never said that those platforms should have an absolute and unchallengable legal, moral, and ethical right to decide not to host, say, Klan propaganda. Everything you keep saying about what “large generic speech platforms” “should” do implies that they’re obligated to host all speech and some kind of force⁠—regardless of its legality⁠—must enforce that obligation if they refuse to carry it out.
  2. I’ve never advocated for this thing you’re saying. You can’t offer any direct quote that says otherwise.

You are an anti-inellectual and functionally a conservative.

Transmen are women, and should not be allowed to force themselves into male-designated spaces.

And yet, if they were to enter female-designated spaces, the chances of them facing some sort of violent retribution (including being beaten to death) goes way the fuck up. You’re oh-so-concerned about cis women being raped by men in dresses, but you don’t seem to care someone who is biologically a woman but looks like a man gets killed for using the “correct” public restroom. You are an anti-inellectual and functionally a conservative.

Caviling about complexity is the Courtier’s Reply.

No, it isn’t. It’s me telling you that the world isn’t as simple as “X is X and Y is Y” for every subject where you want that to be true. Take the “trans men in women’s bathroom” bit: You’re all about forcing trans men to use women’s bathrooms because trans men are biologically female, but you don’t care about whether that opens trans men up to violent retribution from cis people because you’re too busy trying to enforce “X is X and Y is Y” (i.e., “men are men and women are women”) thinking. You’re effectively trying to change the world to fit into your views rather than changing your views to fit into the world.

If you saw someone who looked like a man walk into a women’s restroom in a Walmart, from everything you’ve ever said, I can guess that you’d report that person to the cops⁠—or even wait outside the restroom to commit violence on them. (And that’s assuming they don’t get beaten before they get out of the restroom.) But how could you possibly know⁠—with the absolute and unyielding certainty of God⁠—whether than man is transgender only by looking at them if your first instinct is to think “they’re obviously a man”?

That is my whole point here, Hyman: You don’t think about issues any deeper than the surface. You accept what your right-wing news and opinion sources feed you, then regurgitate that into a dozen lines designed to be thought-terminating clichés and act like “YOU have been CRUSHED by my SUPERIOR LOGIC” debate-killers. You’ve let other hatemongers cuck your mindset so much that you can’t see past your own hatred to consider the suffering your ideology would⁠—and already is!⁠—inflicting upon others. And you certainly don’t seem to give a good god’s damn about who will be targeted next by the people who share your ideology.

In short: You are an anti-inellectual and functionally a conservative. Saying that in a much longer way is not a Courtier’s Reply. If you have a problem with that, door’s to your left, you harassment-happy anti-queer troll. Feel free to leave, because I’m sure you have better things to do with your time⁠—but I can do this all day.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:7

  • but I know that it is one of the only two that exist*

Well there is an error as well. There are various conditions of people born and developing not at all in line with “the two sexes”.

This doesn’t necessarily have anything to do with gender, which is entirely a social construct.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:8

Men are the ones with organs that can produce sperm cells when they work correctly. Women are the ones with organs that can produce egg cells when they work correctly. True hermaphroditism, where one person has tissue of both sorts of gonads, is vanishingly rare – Wikipedia says that about 500 cases have been documented, and even then, this is not a different sex, just a genetic or developmental disorder.

There are only two sexes. Gender is the same as sex. Gender roles are the social constructs. Woke gender ideologues like to say that gender is a social construct because we use the words “male” and “female” for gender, and they want to claim that men can be female and women can be male, or similar jumbles of terms. But people are only ever the sex of their bodies.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:7 That flushing sound you just heard was the last of your argument

“Taylor is a liar, we could ask for a physical and genetic examination if we needed to know for sure.”

And thats how we found that Taylor has Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome. They have XY chromosome but are to a physical examination, female.

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bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7

[…] but I know that it is one of the only two that exist.

Only if you ignore intersex people. Sex is actually bimodal, not binary.

We can ask Taylor what their sex is, […]

And why should Taylor have to answer at all?

[…] or if we believe that Taylor is a liar, […]

And on what basis would you be able to determine that without discriminating against even cisgender people who don’t conform to typical gender roles and/or visually present as the gender corresponding to their sex? And without harassing the transgender people who try to enter the spaces corresponding to their sex rather than their gender identity but who pass as the gender corresponding to their gender identity?

[…] we could ask for a physical and genetic examination […]

Why should they agree to such a thing? And if they don’t but you insist anyways, on what basis can you justify invading their privacy without their consent?

[…] if we needed to know for sure.

Outside of medical care or (possibly) prisons or sports, why would you ever need to know for sure? Why is this any of your business? Because you have taboos? So what? If you have taboos against being in the vicinity of anyone with dyed hair in these same locations, does that give you the right to demand people give proof that their hair is natural?

For the purposes of this discussion, please keep prisons and sports out of your answers to these questions and stick to restrooms and locker rooms, or similar situations.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:9

We need to know because people have social, cultural, and religious taboos against mixing sexes in certain contexts.

Some people have those same taboos against mixing races in certain contexts. What makes their taboos evil and unenforceable but makes the taboos of transphobes worth enforcing with state-sponsored violence?

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:10

Some people have those same taboos against mixing races in certain contexts. What makes their taboos evil and unenforceable but makes the taboos of transphobes worth enforcing with state-sponsored violence?

I mean, he will probably have a different answer, but the real answer is, because they aren’t his taboos. His taboos, however, are righteous and true, according to him.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:10

We reached a general and nearly universal consensus that legal segregation of races is morally wrong, and so did away with it.

The woke enablers of people with the trans delusion aren’t seeking to end segregation by sex. They are attempting to claim that some men are women, and therefore may enter the single-sex spaces reserved to women. They are welcome to try to convince people of this, but until they do, many places will use the power of law to prevent people from forcing their way into single-sex spaces for which their bodies disqualify them, or to teach the trans delusion as true in public schools.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:11

We reached a general and nearly universal consensus that legal segregation of races is morally wrong

Some people still think segregation is morally righteous. For what reason should their taboos on integration/miscegenation be ignored but other people’s taboos on trans people be sanctioned by law (with state-sponsored violence acting as an enforcement mechanism of those laws) when the existence of a single trans person poses about as much of a threat to society as the existence of a single mixed race couple?

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:12

Because in our society, we have reached a nearly universal consensus about racial segregation, but not about the trans delusion, which, if it exists as a consensus at all, is against the point of view that men should be allowed into women’s single-sex spaces.

I could argue that taboos against mixing sexes in certain contexts are widespread across the world and throughout history, but basically, it’s arbitrary. We have a consensus for one and not the other, you are welcome to try to convert people to your point of view, and until you succeed, people with the trans delusion are going to be kept out of single-sex spaces for which their bodies disqualify them when woke ideologues have not colonized the local government.

Note that even if we do reach a consensus on stripping away the rights of women in favor of men with the trans delusion, those delusional people will remain men, because not even broad consensus can change reality.

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bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5

Sex and gender are the same thing.

Under your definitions, yes. Under modern scientific definitions and the definitions used by the transgender community, no, they aren’t.

Again, no one will say that anyone’s sex is anything other than what their body is. If you have a problem with them saying that their gender is anything other than what their body is, say that, because otherwise, you’re attacking a position no one actually holds. That you do not distinguish between the two terms is irrelevant as we aren’t talking about your position but that of the transgender community and its allies.

People will care about Taylor’s sex because people have social, cultural, and religious taboos against mixing sexes in certain contexts, such as bathrooms, locker rooms, sports, and prisons.

  1. You have not demonstrated that a significantly large portion of the population cares with the possible exceptions of sports and/or prisons.
  2. Other people have social, cultural, and religious taboos against mixing gender identities in those same contexts. Why should the side you support win out over the other?
  3. How is that any better than the social, cultural, and religious taboos people used to have over mixing races in many of those contexts, namely restrooms and sports such that we should continue to respect them?
  4. How would one enforce this without preventing cisgender people who don’t carry IDs to use the restroom or locker room conforming to their sex even though their appearance may not match what one would expect of their gender and while also respecting the social, cultural, and religious taboos many people have over other people touching or looking at their genitals?

Basically, why should some people’s nosiness and/or paranoia dictate what other people do in their vicinity?

That One Guy (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:6

How is that any better than the social, cultural, and religious taboos people used to have over mixing races in many of those contexts, namely restrooms and sports such that we should continue to respect them?

Or the taboos against same-sex marriage, the taboos regarding women being treated as equal under the law and having the right to vote… funny how many social movements towards equality would have been torpedoed if ‘It violates my taboos so you can’t do it’ were the rule.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:6

People who wanted to end racial segregation did not campaign for ongoing separate Black and white facilities, with only Black people who identified as white being allowed to use the white facilities. If you want to argue that single-sex facilities should be banned, go ahead and do that (and good luck). You are arguing, however, that only the subset of men who delusionally think they’re women should be allowed in women’s single-sex spaces, not all men.

“How would one prevent this” is the same way we prevent turnstile jumping or tax evasion or drunk driving. We rely on most people to be honest and law-abiding, and use randomized enforcement to catch occasional offenders and make people cautious about risky behavior.

But OK, let’s assume, arguendo, that you are right about gender and sex being different things. The problem is that we don’t have separate words for categorizing divisions in both, so let’s do what woke ideologues love doing, and create new words. Thus:

Sex – People with male bodies are men (sing. man, he/him).
Sex – People with female bodies are women (sing. woman, she/her).
Gender – People who adopt stereotypically masculine appearance and behavior are zale zen (sing. zan, ze/zim).
Gender – People who adopt stereotypically feminine appearance and behavior are fezale wozen (sing. wozan, zhe/zer).

Both men and women can be either zen or wozen as they self-identify, no inspections required. People who prefer to identify as gender non-binary can simply refer to themselves as male or female according to their bodies and be neither zale nor fezale. Lesbians are all women only, but can be zen or wozen, and may even have romantic preferences for one or the other (cognate with what we now call butch or femme). Single-sex spaces labeled for men or women continue to admit only people who are male or female. Facilities labeled for zen and wozen can be established, and then people will be admitted by their self-identified gender rather than their sex.

Sound good? Have we solved this troubling social problem once and for all?

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:8

The reason you think so is because woke gender ideologues want to do away with the idea that physical sex is real, immutable, and it’s the thing that matters to normal people. People with the trans delusion aren’t going to be happy being characterized by their sex even when they have a separate outlet to be distinguished by gender (role). They desperately want to be the sex they are not, and demand that everyone affirm that they are, even though they can never be.

The whole “of course we’re not talking about sex” schtick that bhull242 and you and others try to pull is the motte and bailey, trotted out when convenient but never really believed. It’s only about sex.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:10

If they are not the same, then there should be no problem keeping people out of single-sex spaces for which their bodies disqualify them, right? Unless, of course, woke gender ideologues are trying to steal the words “man” and “woman”, which refer to sex, so that they can force their way into such spaces.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:15

If you were to ask a decent number of people who’ve played SimCity whether it’s a game, I could damn near guarantee that almost all of them (if not all of them) would say it’s a game. (Myself included. BTW: SimCity 2000 is still the best game in the franchise.) Even Wikipedia defines SimCity as “a city-building simulation video game”. What makes that guy’s opinion any more legally, morally, and ethically binding than that of Wikipedia and/or the people who’ve played SimCity and would absolutely call it a game?

And yes, I’m arguing with you on this point to show you the utter futility of trying to provide a snappy one-sentence answer to the question when so many different games exist that have nothing in common but could all be considered games⁠—and when so many thing exist that arguably aren’t games but share some attributes with games. (To wit: If one of the reasons we play games is to experience a form of pleasure, would a basic act of sexual intercourse qualify as a game?)

Also: If the best you can do is borrow an opinion from someone else and act like that opinion is objective fact because you cited it without actually trying to defend your own position on the matter, your best isn’t fucking good enough, dipshit.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:16

His opinion is more valid because he has been the head designer of Magic the Gathering for some 25 years and was just inducted into the hall of fame for tabletop games. He explains clearly why he thinks these four elements are essential. He doesn’t require that anyone else accept his definition, but on the other hand, he’s not going to let other people dissuade him from his view.

You’re just angry because I used a good definition of a game, supported by someone who has helped turn his game designs into a billion-dollar franchise, a game selling better than ever even though it is thirty years old. (I don’t know why you asked me this at all, by the way. I haven’t been talking about games.)

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:17

You’re just angry because I used a good definition of a game

lmao you think I’m angry about this

…but I’m not. What I’m doing is using SimCity to poke a hole in that dude’s definition (and your breathless, thoughtless, “it’s right because he says so” defense of it). You won’t find many people who’ve played SimCity that would agree with “SimCity isn’t a game”. And yet, according to what you cite as the Word of God on the matter, SimCity isn’t a game because it doesn’t have a defined endgame goal.

The world is often far more complex than a single sentence will ever be able to explain. As I pointed out, SimCity being widely considered a game despite its lack of an endgame goal destroys that dude’s one-sentence definition of “game”. To pivot back to why I made that point: Any attempt to define “woman” in a single snappy sentence will never include all cis women and exclude all trans people. But bigots like you will keep trying to find that one “gotcha” sentence because you want to justify bigotry by minimizing the world and the variety of lived experiences of humanity down to simple ideas and sentences where something is right and anything else is wrong. Your ignorance about and disdain for the complexities of life is sad⁠—and wholly indicative of how you managed to let yourself be cucked by the bigotry of others.

And that’s not to say I’m not guilty of this kind of bullshit. God knows I’ve argued about the definition of “censorship” enough to know for a fact that I’m stubborn as fuck about that subject. But the difference between you and I is twofold:

  1. I’m willing to open myself to new ideas and experiences, learn from them, admit any mistakes in my thinking, and recalibrate my thinking to accept new facts.
  2. I know there is no pithy, snappy, “I win” one-liner that actively describes abstract concepts such as “censorship”, “game”, and “woman”.

You, on the other hand…well, your ignorance, stubbornness, refusal to learn, and “polite” racism/anti-queer bigotry put you on the same level as the average Republican lawmaker. How does it feel to be, on a fundamental level, no better than Donald Trump?

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:18

In fact, Rosewater talks about the two modes of Minecraft, survival mode that is a game by his definition, and free building mode which is not. And of course people can set their own goals even when the system doesn’t provide one.

There are exactly two sexes. A man is an adult make, a woman is an adult female. Male and female refer to the potential of the body to produce the two forms of gametes. (Potential because sometimes bodies are broken.) Men cannot be women. Women cannot be men. No playing with language can ever change the physical reality of this situation, No arguing about definitions can ever change the reality of this situation. No amount of your cursing and raging can ever change the reality of this situation. No amount of threats, cancellation, and totalitarianism can ever change the reality of this situation. The universe does not, and never will, respond to your wishful thinking, not even when you torture the non-believers into sitting your lies.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:19

Rosewater talks about the two modes of Minecraft, survival mode that is a game by his definition, and free building mode which is not

So what? By his definition, something that millions of people would call a “game” isn’t one. He might have accolades and knowledge, but that doesn’t make SimCity any less of a game than chess (be it physical or digital). I don’t know why you think this dude’s opinion is Word of God on what is or isn’t a game, but he’s not the objective arbiter of that subject. Neither are you; neither am I. The idea of a “game” is too complex and nuanced for anyone to sum up in a single sentence. Deal with it.

There are exactly two sexes.

See, this is what I was talking about: You think a fifth grade education is all you need to understand the world and know everything there is to know.

Yes, the two most common human sexes are male and female. But other, less common sexes do exist⁠—and they are, genetically speaking, some form of intersexuality. Some people may go through their whole life never knowing they’re genetically intersex even though their bodies may be, in a more general sense, male or female. Humans are sexually dimorphic, but that doesn’t mean the binary is as strict as “only male and female”. That you refuse to accept this nuance and let other bigots cuck your mindset with hate for people who want to piss in a public toilet without being harassed (or worse) is your problem.

The universe does not, and never will, respond to your wishful thinking, not even when you torture the non-believers into sitting your lies.

Bitch, the only person in this argument who has ever advocated in favor of any kind of torture is you.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:20

You asked for the definition of a game, I gave you one. You don’t like it, I don’t care.

That “fifth grade” definition of man and woman is the point. Woke gender ideology is The Emperor’s New Clothes redux. Even a little child knows the difference. It takes the pseudo-sophistication of idiotic woke ideology to claim that the obviously true is false. You’re giving the [Courtier’s Reply](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Courtier%27s_reply}.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:21

You asked for the definition of a game, I gave you one.

And you still treat that definition as the literal Word of God on the matter even after I pointed out that, under this definition that you seem to believe is objective fact, a game that millions of people consider a “game” wouldn’t qualify. That definition seems pretty fucking bad if it excludes a game, a franchise, and even an entire genre of video games all at once based on the fact that they’re more open-ended games with no game-imposed endgame goal.

If your definition of game doesn’t cover SimCity, your definition is shit. And if you really think any sort of complex idea like “game” (or “woman”) can be summed up in a single pithy “DESTROYED by FACTS and LOGIC” sentence, you’re full of shit.

That “fifth grade” definition of man and woman is the point.

And it’s also my point: Your incuriosity about the world and its complexities is no better than that of an evangelical Christian preacher who claims he is a voice of God that knows the true black-and-white morality of this world. You want things to be as simple as “X is X and Y is Y” because you don’t want to worry about nuances in subjects, fields, and concepts like gender identity. Hell, for all your whining about how you want to protect cis women from trans women in bathrooms and sports, your bullshit would target more cis women for regular and repeated public humiliation than it would ever catch trans women. You’re literally holding up patriachal evangelist values by implying that any cis woman who doesn’t fit a specific stereotype or doesn’t fall into traditional Western standards of beauty must be trans and therefore must, either by law or by extrajudicial violence, face a harsh punishment for trying to “invade” spaces set aside for women. For all your claims about how much you hate the religious and Republicans, you’re literally on their side.

You’re giving the Courtier’s Reply

You keep harkening back to that one definition of “game” and treating it as the Word of God; I’m pointing out that under that definition, SimCity wouldn’t be considered a game despite millions of people around the world having considered it a game for decades. You keep talking as if it’s easy to define “woman” in one snappy sentence; I’ve pointed out that even if you try, you’ll never find a sentence that excludes all trans women and includes all cis women. What I’m doing isn’t the Courtier’s Reply⁠—it’s challenging your bullshit on the basis that you not only let someone else speak for you by borrowing their opinions and rhetoric, but that you’re so incurious about the world that you’d rather support the sexual assault of cis women at the hands of police and “transvestigators” than just let trans people piss in a public toilet in peace.

Also, you’re a daft cunt.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:22

I like Rosewater’s definition of a game because it makes sense. One of the things that most people would say about games in the abstract is that they can be won or lost.

The reason that people call open-ended simulations “games” is because they come packaged in the same way other video games do, and there’s no practical reason for most people to care about technical definitions. If you explain Rosewater’s definition to people playing simulations, many would likely agree with the toy vs. game distinction.

And as I said, the fact that the designers have not given you goals does not mean that you cannot provide goals for yourself. Build a large city with only trains in SImCity. Visit an airport in every state in Flight Simulator. And so on.

When someone is a game designer, though, technical definitions matter because knowing what you’re making is part of the job.

In any case, you asked for a definition, I gave you one. You don’t like the definition I gave you, I don’t care. You don’t find it useful to have different words to describe things with goals and things without, I don’t care.

A woman is a human female. She’s got ovaries. No matter how you twist and spin and torture language and reality, a man will never be a woman.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:23

I like Rosewater’s definition of a game because it makes sense. One of the things that most people would say about games in the abstract is that they can be won or lost.

SimCity can’t be “won” or “lost” in the sense that SimCity has a built-in endgame factor. For what reason should one opinion alone disqualify SimCity and games of its ilk from being considered games⁠—and, in the process, functionally override the opinion of literally millions of people that believe SimCity is a game?

If you explain Rosewater’s definition to people playing simulations, many would likely agree with the toy vs. game distinction.

By his definition, “tag” isn’t a game unless it’s played under supercompetitive rules like one would play baseball or chess. Do you think kindergarten teachers are gonna say that little kids playing “tag” are playing with a “toy” instead of playing a “game”?

Therein lies my whole argument, Hyman: By trying to boil down a question like “what is a game” (or “what is a woman”) to a single pithy sentence, you’ll always leave out something that many other people would consider as a valid answer to the question. When confronted with this notion, you refuse to accept that there is more nuance in the world than a single person’s definition of “game” (or your fifth-grade understanding of gender and biology).

the fact that the designers have not given you goals does not mean that you cannot provide goals for yourself

Irrelevant to the argument. According to the definition of “game” that you’re treating as the Word of God on the matter, the game must have a built-in endgame factor of some kind or else it’s not a game. By that logic, SimCity isn’t a game.

When someone is a game designer, though, technical definitions matter because knowing what you’re making is part of the job.

You say that like there is a one-size-fits-all “technical definition” for “game”. By the logic of the definition you keep treating as the absolute truth, the creators of SimCity were toymakers instead of game designers (which I’m sure would come as a shock to them).

I don’t care.

You care a great deal, or else you wouldn’t be coming back to argue with a pissant like me. Do you really have nothing better to do with your time than get into Internet slapfights with someone who actually doesn’t have anything better to do with his time?

A woman is a human female. She’s got ovaries.

By that simplistic-ass definition, any biological woman who has had a hysterectomy that removed her ovaries is a man even if she identifies as a woman. Do you see how your “X is X and Y is Y and that’s all there is to that” thinking is going to get you in trouble here, or are you really that fucking stupid?

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:9

The reason you think so is because

…you’re a fucking bigoted moron.

woke gender ideologues want to do away with the idea that physical sex is real, immutable, and it’s the thing that matters to normal people

The funny thing is, your radical gender ideology is the only one that actually gives a shit about that idea. You haven’t provided a shred of proof that “woke gender ideologues” (whatever the fuck that actually means) believe this thing you accuse them of believing. But you’ve offered plenty of proof that you believe in Schrödinger’s Gender Roles, in which gender is an immutable fact of nature that can’t be changed but also needs constant reinforcement via laws and violence to ensure that the natural gender binary is upheld in society.

The whole “of course we’re not talking about sex” schtick that bhull242 and you and others try to pull is the motte and bailey, trotted out when convenient but never really believed.

Again: You haven’t provided a shred of proof that says otherwise, but you’ve provided a lot of proof that you’d be happy with legal enforcement of the gender binary you’re so desperate to make us believe is an immutable and unchangeable law of nature.

It’s only about sex.

Yes, yes, you want to fuck trans women without guilt, we get it.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:10

The main thing that needs to be enforced is preventing people from forcing their way into single-sex spaces for which their bodies disqualify them.

Secondarily, because woke gender ideology is false, it should not be taught as true in public schools.

Thirdly, people who understand that woke gender ideology is false should not be coerced into subtly affirming it, such as answering questionnaires that ask for “assigned” gender.

Because you want to force people into affirming your false and malignant ideology, you choose not to notice that all three of these things are not about controlling the behavior of people with the trans delusion, but about preventing people with the trans delusion and their woke enablers from coercing and brainwashing non-believers.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:11

The main thing that needs to be enforced is preventing people from forcing their way into single-sex spaces for which their bodies disqualify them.

And in trying to enforce this bullshit, you and your TERF allies will end up targeting and hurting more cisgender women than trans women. Small price to pay for fucking up trans lives for no reason other than mindless bigotry, though, huh?

woke gender ideology is false, it should not be taught as true in public schools

Yes, yes, you think nobody in a public school⁠—including students⁠—should ever be allowed to say “gay”, “trans”, or any other word that acknowledges the existence of queer people of any kind.

people who understand that woke gender ideology is false should not be coerced into subtly affirming it

“…but people who believe in woke gender ideology should be subjected to torturous physical and pyschological abuse that I like to call ‘therapy’ because they need to affirm my worldview and my radical, violent, hateful gender ideology at any and all costs. To them.” That’s you.

you want to force people into affirming your false and malignant ideology

Dude, I don’t give a fuck if you “affirm” the existence of trans people. Hate them all you want, for all I give a fuck. What I want is for you to stop shitting up this site with your hatred and your weird-ass obsession with the genitals of women and children⁠—and to stop advocating for/conding unwarranted and unnecessary physical and psychological violence against queer people. You wanna believe “conversion ‘therapy’ ” actually works and isn’t torture, or that all trans people should be forced by law to undergo that shit so you and your anti-trans allies won’t have to worry(/fantasize) about whether that woman sitting next to you on the bus has a dick? Believe it! Believe it all the live-long day! But do it somewhere else, you fascist pervert.

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

Whenever I post that I do not believe that it is a problem to be tracked online, or have cell phone location data recorded, or have street cameras recording views, someone inevitably asks me to post my social security number and other personal information.

That’s not about the 1A or free speech; that’s about privacy. That’s a completely unrelated criticism of an entirely separate position you hold. As such, this doesn’t support your claim about what people here believe about free speech.

This comment has been deemed insightful by the community.
Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re:

Always wondered Why so FEW can Piss off so many.

Conservatives, fascists, and the political right-wing in general hate exuberance and joy. Moreover, they hate anyone who can show the world that a different way of life outside of a narrowly prescribed vision (e.g., the patriarchal “nuclear family”, conservative Christianity) is both possible and fulfilling. Beyond that, the hate for queer people is much simpler: Conservatives want to use them as a wedge for splitting apart marginalized groups, all with the intent of attacking them separately once they’ve been split off. Transphobia is, almost word for word, recycled homophobia⁠—since conservatives know they can’t get away with hating on gay people in general any more without being mocked all the live-long day, they’ve moved on to attacking trans people, who are a much smaller and much more vulnerable segment of the population.

This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:

This is why we must call all straight people queer and closeted molesters. The ones who are good and honest will pick up a pride flag and stand with us. The ones who aren’t, we destroy until they comply.

Stephen is a good example of this. He’ll never skip an opportunity to give Hywoman Rosen a drag queen name or call a Catholic priest a closet gay.

This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:2

https://reason.com/volokh/2023/06/18/man-sentenced-to-15-months-in-prison-for-threatening-congresswoman/

You should exercise caution in making the sort of statements you do. It’s possible that they might rise to the legal standard level of “true threats” and send you off to jail.

It’s also interesting that you use “Hywoman” as an insult; it’s emblematic of the misogyny and desire to replace women so often being expressed now by men who are gay or trans. How unshocking for men to find yet another way to hate women, including men under the trans delusion who claim to be lesbian and resent real women for wanting nothing to do with them.

This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it.

This comment has been deemed insightful by the community.
TFG says:

Re: Re: Re:3

Unrelated to anything the Rosen is saying, the “Nuclear Family” as the main family unit is actually a fairly recent invention.

What I will call the Clan has a much longer and venerable history – to whit, not just the Nuclear Family, but the extended family as well. Grandparents, uncles, aunts, cousins, etc. living in community.

Draw whatever conclusions one might like – it’s just simple fact that the Clan has been, historically, much more of a thing across multiple cultures than the Nuclear family has.

ECA (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re: STStone

But they Cant be that Gullible. Not after all these years of Cow towing to Church and corps. Even the old time singers tell the stories of the coal mines and the Money earned never gets out of the area.
That even watching the kings and Queens, you got to see all the Inbred’s, and what happens to them.
I love trying to get the Wannabe religious to Know their own past histories. That the bible they read is from the Jewish religion, and even They acknowledge they Believed in More then 1 god, before the bible, and all those Bible stories that come from the Jewish faith(Arnt Christian) Happened Before the creation of the Jewish bible. Then 1500 years of the old testament after revisions, Then the new testament comes around. There has been more killing of Christians By Other Christians, then Any other group killing them. and hte Stories of the Popes is so much fun.
Can we get them to create a NEw version, among the 40+ already here?

This comment has been deemed insightful by the community.
Anonymous Coward says:

Re:

I don’t get how your localized slap fight about two different music genres is relevant to moderation issues and enshittification.

Because while I do know that people argue over the stupidest of things, that is less comparable to a Wall Street CEO wanting to destroy Reddit for personal short-term profit.

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