This Is Really, Really Dumb: Ohio Court Says Google May Be A Common Carrier

from the it's-not,-stop-it dept

We’ve gone into detail as to why it makes no sense at all, legally or conceptually, to call a website a common carrier. We’ve also explained how conservatives — bizarrely the ones pushing for this, despite decades of claiming that common carrier designations were an affront to all that is good and holy — aren’t going to like it if websites are declared common carriers. And, we just had this fantastic ruling in the 11th Circuit explaining, in clear and direct terms, why websites are not common carriers.

And, yet, now a state court in Ohio has said that Google may just be a common carrier. There’s a lot going on here, but it’s a really dumb ruling by a very confused judge. This is the case that we wrote about a year ago, in which Ohio filed a weird lawsuit that reads like it wants to be an antitrust lawsuit against Google, but focuses on declaring the company to be a “common carrier.” As we noted when that lawsuit came out, most of it was completely nonsensical. Even if Ohio got what it wanted, it still wasn’t clear what it would mean for Google to “not discriminate” against websites, because the entire point of a search engine is to discriminate. It ranks its results and those rankings are a form of discrimination: discriminating against less relevant and useful results in favor of more relevant and useful results.

So, it seemed fairly obvious that this was a garbage lawsuit filed for garbage reasons. And, yet, Judge James Schuck has now allowed it to go forward rather than dismissing it. There’s a lot of nonsense in the ruling, but lets start with what a common carrier means under Ohio law:

Under Ohio law, a common carrier is defined as one who undertakes for hire to transport persons or property, and holds itself out to the public as ready and willing to serve the public indifferently and impartially to the limits of its capacity.

So, um, Google search meets literally none of those conditions. It is transporting neither persons nor property. It does not serve the public indifferently and impartially, because you go to Google in the first place to get Google’s recommendations on how to answer your query. There is no such thing as an impartial search result. That’s not a thing.

But, apparently, the judge here has a different view of the world.

Thus, there must be a “public profession or holding out to serve the public.” … In that regard, the State has alleged that Google’s stated mission is to “organize the world’s information and make it universally accessible and usable.” … A reasonable factfinder could conclude this unsolicited admission by Google, if true, satisfies such a standard. Google’s response–its citation to “Our Approach to Search” from its “How Search Works” webpage–goes beyond the four corners of the State’s Complaint and cannot be considered at this stage of the proceeding.

So, already, this is… bizarre. Saying that you want to organize the world’s information and make it universally available is about for users of the search engine, not for the websites it links to (though, even that shouldn’t much matter), and the state’s complaint is not that Google is blocking users from doing searches… just in how it organizes results.

So, already, the judge is confusing two different parties here. Also, a marketing message about organizing the world’s information is, in no way, a legal admission that it will include ALL information.

It gets worse. Google points out that it’s not a common carrier because it doesn’t carry anything, as I’ve pointed out. The judge shrugs that off:

Herein lies the difficulty in applying 18th century common law to 21st century technology and commerce. In the internet age, information is often as valuable as goods. From telegraph, land-line telephones, cable television, and cellular telephones, the law of what is transported and how it is transported has developed over time. The State has alleged that Google carries information. For purposes of the present posture, the State’s allegations are sufficient.

I mean, what? While it’s true that technology has changed, we also have many, many, many decades of law regarding common carriers for communications. And Google search does not “carry” information under any of those. To simply say that alleging otherwise is enough is ridiculous. And it opens up the ability for the state to effectively harass almost any business by claiming it’s a common carrier.

Then there’s the issue of a common carrier service requiring payment. As Google rightly notes, you don’t pay to use Google search. The state argued this doesn’t matter because you “pay” with “data.” Of course, if that’s accurate, then, you can argue ANYTHING is a pay service, so long as there’s some sort of benefit out of it. That’s nonsense. But, the judge buys it, claiming “an inference may fairly be drawn” that by using Google’s search and providing the company data, you are paying for it.

The judge also notes that direct fees are not necessary for common carriage, pointing to elevators.

To this extent, it appears more recent law has shifted from requiring a direct fee paid to the carrier. A mall does not charge a fee to members of the public who use its escalators. An office complex does not charge a fee to members of the public who use its elevators. An airport does not charge a fee to members of the public who use its terminals. Nonetheless, the availability of these conduits to the general public provides an important ancillary benefit to the owners of the mall, office building, and airport. In return for providing this important service, tenants rent space and perhaps pay more for that space because the landlord is able to provide the tenants’ customers with better and quicker access to the tenants’ spaces. No direct fee is paid to the landlord by the customers, but cases suggest the landlord is still functioning as a common carrier in those situations.

The judge then creates two hypotheticals, one about a version of Uber that does not exist, that was entirely advertising supported, and one about a subway system that is entirely taxpayer supported, noting there would be no direct fee for either, but both could be deemed common carriers. The Uber example seems particularly sketchy, since Uber certainly reserves the right to reject passengers, so I don’t see how the argument applies there. And as for a government provided service, well, that’s an entirely different category of service, so again… not applicable.

But, the judge deems the common carrier argument can move forward. It’s not final, this is just at the motion to dismiss stage where the judge is supposed to take everything the plaintiff pleads as true. So, it could turn around later. But, as a start, this seems ridiculous. This way, the government can basically allege almost any business is a common carrier, and force it to do all sorts of things.

From there, the case shifts to the question of, even if the company is a common carrier, is it a “public utility.” Here, the court rightly concludes that even if it’s a common carrier, Google is clearly not a public utility. It goes through a bunch of reasons why, some of which I think are a bit sketchy, but the main summary:

While it is no doubt a popular service, the public has no legal right to demand a device to search the internet. The lack of regulation means that Google is free to stop providing its search platform whenever it chooses. It could choose to focus on other parts of its company, or–as unlikely as it may seem–go out of business entirely. Google needn’t give notice or reason before doing so….

The public has a legal right to demand or receive electric, gas, water, and solid waste removal…. If the provider of these services were to cease operating, the public would be severely harmed by not having these essential public services. The public would rightly ask what the government would do to fill that void. This is the definition of an essential public service….

While Google Search is inarguably convenient and often used, it does not provide a fundamental life-essential service that the public has a right to demand and receive. Google Search barely existed two decades ago.

And even though Google Search has a 90 percent market share according to the State’s Complaint, were Google Search to cease operating, Google’s competitors, like Bing, Ask, and Duck Go, would undoubtedly fill the void left by Google’s departure. The minimal inconvenience of leaving users to type the web address of a different search engine into their search bars is not equivalent to the significant harm faced by the public if the local water company shuts down its pipes or the local electric company powers down the grid.

So, that’s all correct. But, weighing it against the common carrier analysis is unfortunate. Because it feels like the judge is trying to have it both ways here.

Then the court responds to Google’s (correct!) claim that declaring it a common carrier infringes on its 1st Amendment rights, and again, the 11th Circuit’s recent ruling makes it clear why it does. Unfortunately, Ohio is not in the 11th.

Instead, the court says that simply declaring Google a common carrier does not infringe on the 1st Amendment, as the real issue is what rules the state then requires the common carrier to follow. The court argues those could violate the 1st Amendment… but also, might not. I believe the judge then misstates several key rulings, including the same ones the 11th Circuit just used to invalidate much of Florida’s law, but again, Ohio ain’t in the 11th.

Basically, the court here says that the cases around compelled speech focused on situations where “the host’s message was impacted by the speech it was forced to accommodate,” but argues that isn’t the case with Google search.

There is minimal concern that Google Search’s users will believe that Google Search’s results constitute Google’s own speech. When a user search a speech by former President Donald Trump on Google Search and that speech is retrieved by Google with a link to the speech on YouTube, no rational person would conclude that Google is associating with President Trump or endorsing what is seen in the video.

What a weird hypothetical. And wrong. The issue is not the underlying content. The part is Google’s expression is the search ranking. And people do associate that with Google. If Google thinks this particular search result belongs at the top of a search results page, that’s Google’s expression. The underlying content is something different altogether.

And, um, why are we even using an example of Trump. No one is arguing that Google isn’t linking people to Trump speeches if they search for Trump speeches.

If the State obtains the relief it seeks in this case–an order that Google not self-preference–then any such concern of forced association would be all the more attentuated because the public would know that Google was being forced to host that video.

Huh? This is the most tautological bullshit I’ve seen in a while. It’s okay to compel speech, because once we compel speech people will know it’s compelled speech, and therefore, they’ll know that the host didn’t want that speech? How does that make any sense at all? Under that standard, the government can always compel speech.

And why does the court assume that the entirety of the public will know about this new regulation declaring the company a common carrier? What a weird bit of reasoning.

Either way, the case is not yet over, but it’s a very confused ruling. I don’t know enough about civil procedure rules in Ohio to know if Google can immediately appeal this ridiculousness, or if they have to move forward to discovery and summary judgment, but what a mess.

The standards here are nonsense, and basically open up any business to being declared a common carrier, based on the whims (or more likely, the political grandstanding nonsense) of any government official who wants to create a culture war by blaming a company.

Ohio: do better.

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Comments on “This Is Really, Really Dumb: Ohio Court Says Google May Be A Common Carrier”

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Anonymous Coward says:

While it is no doubt a popular service, the public has no legal right to demand a device to search the internet. The lack of regulation means that Google is free to stop providing its search platform whenever it chooses. It could choose to focus on other parts of its company, or–as unlikely as it may seem–go out of business entirely. Google needn’t give notice or reason before doing so….

The public has a legal right to demand or receive electric, gas, water, and solid waste removal…. If the provider of these services were to cease operating, the public would be severely harmed by not having these essential public services. The public would rightly ask what the government would do to fill that void. This is the definition of an essential public service….

And how many times have I used this same argument here on Techdirt…

Well, nobody will know as I am an AC, but I am the one that constant uses a similar comparison in order to bury any arguments that social media should be a public utility.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re:

I’ve asked a similar question to people who imply Twitter is (or should be treated as) a public utility: If Twitter were to shut down tomorrow, what the hell could the government do to prevent that shutdown?

Not one of the people who think Twitter is (or should be) a public utility ever seem able to answer that one question in a way that backs up their original stance.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re:

telephones

are essential… otherwise, why do our tax dollars pay to provide telephone service to lower income citizens, as well as pay for a call center for emergency services?

Social media is nothing like a phone service, freight trains nor freight delivery.

Social media is nothing more than a distraction in life, it is not needed for anything.

Social media does not instantly connect you to emergency services such as the fire department when your house is on fire.

Social media will never deliver life saving medications like a fright company (UPS).

Social media will never deliver essential goods like a freight train does.

Social media could disappear tomorrow and life will continue.

That you consider social media to be an important part of your life is a YOU problem. Next time don’t be an asshole and Twitter won’t give your ass the boot. Or just join one of the other social media services that openly welcome the assholes like you!

BTW, are you ever going to enumerate the conservative opinions that are being censored on social media? Lower taxes? Small government? Trickle down economics? What are these conservative opinions?

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Upstream (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2

Amusement park rides like a roller coaster ride have consistently been held to represent common carriage.

Sure, and damn near everything can be regulated by Congress because Interstate Commerce! /s

Just because some people have gotten away with gross misapplications of laws or stretching definitions way past their breaking point does not mean it is right or should be done in other situations.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5 You don't know what brings a case under federal jurisdiction, do you?

It’s hard to imagine how a case which pertained to an amusement park ride, an escalator, or an elevator
1. could be a matter of interstate commerce or
2. could require diversity jurisdiction.
I suppose supplemental jurisdiction might be a possibility, but it would be a complicated scenario.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7 Is it too complex to understand that multiple areas of US law are at play in this legal controversy?

  1. Common carriage law,
  2. Public accommodation law,
  3. Civil rights law,
  4. Communications Decency Act,
  5. Constitution Article I, Section I,
  6. Constitution Article VI, Clause 2,
  7. Constitution First Amendment,
  8. Constitution Fifth Amendment, and
  9. Constitution Tenth Amendment.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7 Sorry -- I was replying to a different comment

One should realize how fascinating the controversy over social medium platforms is from the standpoints of:
1. common law,
2. state law,
3. federal statutory law,
4. federal constitutional law,
5. rules of state and federal civil procedure, and
6. rules of state and federal appellate procedure.

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bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:8

I’m trying to understand how amusement park rides, escalators, or elevators constitute common carriage. Most amusement park rides wouldn’t even constitute carriage since they usually start and end at the same point. Escalators and elevators don’t typically have terms of use—standard or otherwise—and generally don’t require any kind of fee to be paid by the people who use them, so even by your three-prong test, they wouldn’t be common carriage.

I’m also still confused about what federal jurisdiction has to do with it.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7 The statutory definition of federal telecommunications common carriage does not exhaust the definition of common carriage

Federal agencies regulate interstate&international trucking common carriage, interstate&international rail common carriage, interstate&international river common carriage, interstate&international sea common carriage, etc.

States deal with many more common carriage types, which are defined by common law.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5 The ignorance could fill the Rose Bowl

From Let Talk About Elevators – That‘s Right, Elevators.

Generally, the law recognizes elevator operators or owners to be common carriers. Courts in many states have held that owners or operators of elevators are considered common carriers and thus are held to a heightened duty of care; those states include California, Maryland, Washington, Alabama, Ohio, Illinois, Pennsylvania, Nevada, Wisconsin, Nebraska, Indiana, Utah, and Virginia.

Toom1275 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7

Even in the case of a politician holding a town nall meeting in a Hotel’s convention hall – that the meeting has become a limited-purpose public forum does not mean hecklers can’t be ejected and does not mean the hotel cannot ban people even if it means they can’t participate.

There’s no rational or legal basis for demanding this be any different “because internet.”

Naughty Autie says:

Re: Re: Re:2

Oh, yeah. You’re right. Get in the carriage at Point A, go along the tracks, get out at Point B which is just across the tracks from Point B, and there’s no stopping anywhere else along the ride to get off and do some shopping or whatever. Wait, I’m confused. In what way exactly does that represent an actual fucking journey? Enquiring minds would like to know.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3 Nothing in Common Carriage Law Says that Starting Point and End Point Must Be Different

Why don’t you study common carriage law?

It’s often important for rides, elevators, and escalators to be common carriers.

Common carriers owe passengers a heightened degree of care to keep passengers and others safe.

Common carriers of merchandise and other property are in a similar albeit sometimes more complex situation.

It’s important that common carriage law be respected.

Naughty Autie says:

Re: Re: Re:4

To add to what I just said:

If I swear down the phone at someone, the phone company can’t cut off service to stop me swearing down the phone at someone else. If I swear at a bus driver, the bus company can’t deny me boarding on buses with other drivers. If I swear at a ride operator, on the other hand, I can be banned from the entire fucking theme park. What about those differences is too difficult for you to grasp?

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5 That's The Idea -- If Twitter is a Common Carrier, it can't evaluate user literary property except in a limited way

Section 230 tells us that requesting common carriage of obscene literary property is probably analogous to requesting common carriage of hazardous material.

A message common carrier has some discretion but not with respect to common carriage of literary property, which is not analogous to hazardous material.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7 Only SCOTUS Decides

Justice Thomas tells the world where he stands.

At least three conservative Justices seem to support him.

And the three liberal Justices can probably be persuaded that a social medium is a quasi-common carrier that provides a common carriage service and a non-common carriage service.

The one liberal Justice I know personally from before becoming a Justice doesn’t believe that Section 230 has the original intent of vitiating all federal anti-discrimination law — duh.

The sum is already 5, but I would prefer at least a 7-2 majority to shut up the anti-common carriage fanatics.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:8

anti-common carriage fanatics.

Dude, have you looked into a mirror?

I personally think you have some mental deterioration by the way are a fanatic about redefining universally understood concepts in order to twist them into your desired outcome.

I have destroyed every argument you make trying to re-define what it means to be a common carrier for the sole purpose of trying to get your account back on Twitter.

Just think of how much good you could be doing with all your time, money and effort.

BTW, how do you expect to overcome Twitter’s 1st amendment right of association?

If Twitter doesn’t want to associate with assholes like yourself, the 1A prevents the gov’t from forcing them to associate with assholes like you.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:9 I am not redefining anything

You are in massive denial of the law and know next to nothing about about computer science.

A user account is analogous to an admission ticket to a movie theater or to a baseball stadium.

An (arguably functionally defined) place of public accommodation has no right to exclude anyone but for disruptive behavior.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:10

An (arguably functionally defined) place of public accommodation has no right to exclude anyone but for disruptive behavior.

So you’re admitting that you shouldn’t be on social media since you were banned by social media platforms for disruptive behavior. Glad you agree with the courts that threw out your bullshit lawsuit.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:11 I am a counter puncher

I responded to racist anti-Palestinian Zionist trolls, who were acting far worse toward Olivia and me
1. because we are a couple,
2. because Olivia is a non-white Palestinian Arab Muslim, and
3. because I am Jewish.

A racial supremacist Zionist goes ballistic at the thought of Jewish-Palestinian miscegenation.

Only we were banned. Such discrimination is
1. unlawful for a common carrier and also
2. unlawful under 42 U.S. Code § 1981 – Equal rights under the law.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:11 If a theater throws out someone for no reason, it probably violates 42 U.S. Code § 1981 - Equal rights under the law

(a) Statement of equal rights

All persons within the jurisdiction of the United States shall have the same right in every State and Territory to make and enforce contracts, to sue, be parties, give evidence, and to the full and equal benefit of all laws and proceedings for the security of persons and property as is enjoyed by white citizens, and shall be subject to like punishment, pains, penalties, taxes, licenses, and exactions of every kind, and to no other.

(b) “Make and enforce contracts” defined

For purposes of this section, the term “make and enforce contracts” includes the making, performance, modification, and termination of contracts, and the enjoyment of all benefits, privileges, terms, and conditions of the contractual relationship.

(c) Protection against impairment

The rights protected by this section are protected against impairment by nongovernmental discrimination and impairment under color of State law.

I can think of another reason to file an almost certainly winnable lawsuit.

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:12

That exception to the 1A pertains only to protected classes, which are limited solely to religion and immutable characteristics (race, ethnicity, skin color, sex, gender, sexual orientation, physical disabilities, mental disabilities, age, etc.), at least with regards to nongovernmental agencies not acting under color of law. (Also, some restrictions on discrimination based on protected class are still prohibited if accommodating the class (basically just disabilities, age, and religion) would not be reasonable.) Anything beyond that only pertains to discrimination by governments or their agents.

Seriously, it’s pretty clear that this specific law is about the government trying to or people using the government to try to discriminate. To “make and enforce contracts”, “to sue”, to “be parties” to a lawsuit or criminal case, “to the full and equal benefit of all laws and proceedings”, and to “be subject to like punishment, pains, penalties, taxes, licenses, and exactions of every kind, and to no other,” are all about how the government itself acting and people acting on behalf of or with enforcement by the government. It also explicitly states that the reference is regarding white citizens, so only race is involved in this specific statute, and since race is a protected class as defined above, it fits well within the bounds of the exception I articulated above.

And none of this entails that discrimination by private entities on the basis of one’s lawful speech, past conduct, political leaning, political affiliation(s), financial background, occupation, or ideology (separate from religion or simply being nonreligious at least) is prohibited by the government under that specific statute or can be prohibited by the government under that particular exception to the 1A and private property rights. None of these are or can be protected classes, so discrimination by private entities based on any of these things cannot be prohibited based on the statute or the exception. Public utilities and many common carriers are subject to a different and unrelated exception to the 1A and private property rights.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:13 If an entity makes the same contract with a plurality of people and treats one person differently from another under the same contract, it is in probable violation of 42 U.S. Code § 1981 - Equal rights under the law.

It’s been a long time since cases under § 1981 have specifically worried about only whites and non-whites.

Often a § 1981 case involves the Covenant of Good Faith and Fair Dealing.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3 Continue to Show No Understand of Law

Words count.

Here is a statement about a statute.

See Richards v United States, 369 US 1, 9 (1962), quoted in Welsh, 993 F2d at 1269 (“[W]e must always be cognizant of the fact that ‘the legislative purpose is expressed by the ordinary meaning of the words used.'”).

The some rule applies to common carrier doctrine, which is common law judicial doctrine.

Nowhere does common carrier doctrine refer to a journey. Common carrier doctrine pertains to carrying something.

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Rocky says:

Re: Re: Re:4

Nowhere does common carrier doctrine refer to a journey. Common carrier doctrine pertains to carrying something.

Yes, moving goods and people – moving goods/people usually means taking a journey from point A to point B. It all started with grain elevators and railroads, ie carrying either products or people on infrastructure where there where little to no choice in what service to use because of natural monopoly situations among other things.

Since FCC in it’s infinite political hackiness said in 2017 that common carrier doesn’t extend to telecommunication services anymore you have to be particularly Quixotic to think that it now can be extended to social media somehow.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5 You don't understand federal telecommunications common carrier statutory law

The federal government does not define common carriage by statute.

The FCC has the statutory authority to define a subset of common carriers that it will regulate as federal telecommunications common carriers.

Other common carriers remain common carriers, which are regulated by other federal agencies or by state agencies.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:6

It is not possible to assert catgorically that a social medium platform provides or does not provide common carriage.

Yes, I can assert catgorically[sic] that Twitter does not provide common carriage, because Twitter does not provide carriage of anything. Period. Fact.

Tweets are NOT SENT.
Tweets are NOT DELIVERED.
Tweets do NOT HAVE A DESTINATION.

FACTS, FACTS, FACTS… You just can’t wish them away!

PaulT (profile) says:

Re: Re:

“Privately owned and not-so-essential services such as freight trains, UPS parcel delivery, and telephones have long been considered common carrier”

Yes, and you’ll find no argument from anyone here that services that perform similar functions, such as ISPs, should be common carriers in the same way.

The problem is when you start drooling nonsense about how it’s Google’s search engine that should be considered a common carrier, rather than sticking to sane arguments like Google Fiber being a common carrier along with its competitors.

You’re having an argument about a fruit salad demanding that raw turnips and metal screws be considered ingredients, while using the fact that nobody considers grapes to be controversial as your basis. It’s nonsense.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re: The Judge Has Only Held that Ohio's Complaint is Plausible Enough to Be Tried

And that the Plaintiff has stated a claim on which relief can be granted.

Those are fairly low bars to traverse.

The Judge and a jury will decide whether the Plaintiff proves his case to the appropriate standard.

IANAL — I think the standard is clear and convincing with respect to common carriage. The plaintiff and defendant present matters of fact, and the judge decides the matter of law.

The standard for denial of common carriage is preponderance of the evidence. Denial of common carriage is usually self-evidencing.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: I never argued that social medium is a public utility

Here are the areas of law that one must address to consider whether a social medium platform engages in unlawful actions.
1. Public utility law — doesn’t violate.
2. Public franchise law (natural monopoly law) — doesn’t violate.
3. civil rights law — violates.
4. public accommodation law — violates.
5. common carrier law — violates.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re: I Stated Correctly That Greco-Roman Judeans Never Left Palestine

— and that no modern Jew has Greco-Roman Judean ancestors.

My fiancée stated that she hates Zionism, the Zionist state, and Zionists because in 1948 Zionist rape & murder gangs raped and murdered many of her relatives, drove her family from its homes and property, and stole everything her family owned.

Olivia has good reason for her hatred.

We also told everyone that we were totally in love with one another.

Zionists hate miscegenation. They mass reported us for hate speech, and we were banned from almost every social medium we use.

We stated historical facts not hate speech. To tell the truth, Olivia was too kind. My relatives spent the period from Dec 1946 through Nov 1947 in planning the logistics and the campaign of genococide that Zionists started in Dec 1947 and have never ceased. Several of my relatives led Zionist rape & murder gangs. Zionist purity of arms (טוהר הנשק) has always been a lie. My hyperwealthy Zionist relatives continue to fund genocide in Palestine.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2

Zionists hate miscegenation. They mass reported us for hate speech, and we were banned from almost every social medium we use.

Then bitch about that instead of trying to make Twitter host your speech when you had, still have, and will always have no fucking right to make Twitter host your speech.

Ultimately, your common carrier bullshit is about exactly that: forcing Twitter to host your speech. Doesn’t matter if they don’t want to host it. Doesn’t matter if they don’t want you using the service. Doesn’t even matter that they have a First Amendment right, protected by a fair bit of legal jurisprudence and bolstered by 47 U.S.C. § 230, to make those decisions. You want to force your way onto a platform you were booted from, tell the people running that platform to fuck off, and use their platform as a bullhorn for your speech.

The First Amendment protects your rights to speak freely and associate with whomever you want. It doesn’t give you the right to make others listen. It doesn’t give you the right to make others give you access to an audience. And it doesn’t give you the right to make a personal soapbox out of private property you don’t own. Nobody owes you a platform or an audience at their expense. Even if a service like Twitter opens itself to the public, all those statements remain the same⁠—and those facts don’t give a single fuck about your feelings, your religious beliefs, your political opinions, or however fucking smart you think you are.

You don’t get to make any private entity give you both a bullhorn and people to yell at. Keep repeating all your common carrier opinions as if they’re legal facts, but know that your opinions don’t have the weight of the law or the certitude of facts. The only on-point ruling you can cite that refers to Twitter and its ilk as common carriers is a one-sentence ruling that doesn’t explain how any of the judges involved with that ruling came to their decision⁠—which is about as weak a citation as you can present.

I don’t give a fuck who you are or what you believe. I don’t care if you’re a street sweeper or Elon Musk’s personal footstool. None of that matters here and now. What matters is whether you can cite a single legal case that both agrees with your common carrier claim and has more meat to its bones than one sentence.

Back your shit up or leave, I don’t care which.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re:

You can keep wishing all you want, but I so throughly destroyed every argument you made regarding social media being a common carrier in the last article, you might as well just quit digging.

It does not violate civil rights law any more than a bar tender throwing an asshole drunk out of their bar is violating civil rights laws.

Social media does not provide accommodations, that point is moot.

I have already destroyed every argument you had about social media and common carriers… enough said.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:2

It is necessary to know something about the issues to destroy an argument.

You know the biggest difference in my arguments vs your arguments.

My arguments are deeply rooted in FACT. I have presented multiple FACT based rebuttals to your common carrier nonsense, and none of the FACTS that I presented can be discredited. The are simply just FACTS.

You present wishes. You WISH Twitter was a common carrier. You WISH Twitter operated like telco. You WISH Twitter operated like FedEx. You WISH that Twitter’s service reached beyond their own networks and servers.

Do you see the difference in my FACT based arguments and your WISH based arguments?

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:6

You are too stubborn to acknowledge that a message common carrier of digital personal literary property does not have to be a federal FCC-regulated telecommunications communications common carrier.

And what the fuck does that have to do with all the FACTS that I presented to you????

You can’t dispute the facts!!

But you sure do love to bring out the strawman and argue against that… essentially making shit up.

Again, I am presenting FACTS, you are presenting WISHES.

Twitter DOES NOT PROVIDE COMMON CARRIAGE!

Twitter DOES NOT PROVIDE CARRIAGE. PERIOD!

INDISPUTABLE FACTS!

ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5 Not One of Your Facts Has Any Relevance Whatsoever

You write that an ISP is a true common carrier, and it is true that an ISP provides common carriage of UDP, TCP, RDP, and probably some other packet types.

Note that these messages do not contain a true Internet address. They contain a port number on the destination machine.

Does an ISP control full end-to-end delivery of the above packets? Only if the destination uses the same ISP the source does.

Full control of end-to-end delivery is not required for common carriage.

When a tech geek has no real argument for his false assertion, he uses techno-gobble-dy-gook to baffle the audience with BS.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7 Yet another tech geek that does not common carriage law

The Level IV packets are carried, and the carriage is common carriage.

The Level III packets are not carried because they are modified.

There is no destination address in the Level IV packets.

Please go sit in the corner and face the wall after you put on the dunce cap.

Strawb (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:8

The Level IV packets are carried, and the carriage is common carriage.

“Level IV packets” is not modern network terminology. Either update your vocabulary or stop pretending to know this.

There is no destination address in the Level IV packets.

A regular IPv4 packet has a header that contains a destination address.

Dunce.

ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:9 Someone, who has little or no knowledge, nitpicks terminology

  1. Transport Layer
  2. What is a Transmission Control Protocol TCP/IP Model?

Transport Layer, Level 4, and Layer 4 are all used in current documents. I still have to deal with mixed OSI and IP issues. The common routing devices remain multiprotocol routers and use transport layer, level 4, and layer 4 interchangeably in the documentation.

ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:9 Conundrum Solved

Likewise Twitter has enough info from the follower list or @{name} to alert a destination user. Once the end user downloads Twitter software to his computing device, Twitter is provided with enough information including a destination IP address in order to deliver the tweet to the destination computing machine and complete end-to-end common carriage.

The operation is more complicated than only using an IP-envelope, but the Court does not care.

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4

You still haven’t demonstrated that Twitter is even a carrier to begin with, nor have you cited any case law or statute to support your assertion that monetizing eyes-per-page is charging the user a fee, particularly when giving Twitter those eyes-per-page is not actually required in order to use the service.

ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5 A Tweet Goes from One User to Another User

Something is carrying it.

What do you think is carrying?

Is Twitter a charity? What does it receive for its common carriage?

Twitter tries hard to prevent bots (no eyes on a page) from using the service. Bots waste bandwidth and provide nothing of value to the Twitter.

Note that the user of common carriage need not be the one who pays the fee or provides something of value to the common carrier.

Who pays the common carriage fee in this case?

Treadwell v. Whittier, 80 Cal. 574, 22 P. 266 (Cal. 1889).

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Mike Masnick (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:6

My documents had many authorities — far more than either Twitter or A Medium Corp did. The law is on my side.

And then you lost. The judge threw out your case, remember?

Number of authorities doesn’t mean shit if the authorities don’t say what you think they say. And they don’t.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7 Yet Another non-Lawyer That does not Understand the Language of Courts

Final dismissal without prejudice is not throwing out a case. Throwing out a case is final dismissal with prejudice.

The judge kicked the case up to higher court.

I motioned for reconsideration not because I had a problem with bringing the case before a higher court as I am doing, but because there are some technical issues with the PLRA.

Here is my latest filing in the Court of Appeals for the First Circuit: Notice of Supplemental Authorities.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5 I can supply and have supplied many citations from common carriage cases since the 1850s

The intellectually dishonest supporter of carrier discrimination will screech the cases don’t specifically mention Twitter.

Twitter is a new technology.

We arguing to convince the judges to create new caselaw.

The intellectually dishonest supporter of carrier discrimination wants to prevent common carriage law from applying to new Internet technologies.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7 A Racist Loves Discrimination

No one needs a bigoted social network to impose its own standards. Everyone can identify the noise that he does not want to read and apply his own filters.

Unless a social medium platform is obligated to obey

  1. common carriage law,
  2. civil rights law, and
  3. public accommodation law,

all federal anti-discrimination law is gutted as the racists who screech that a social medium platform is not a common carrier are aware.

Common carrier law is the original anti-discrimination law.

I pointed out the following in my petition for writ of certiorari before judgment.

Current § 230 Caselaw Effectively Vitiates All Anti-Discrimination Law

A business currently subject to anti-discrimination law can escape anti-discrimination law by requiring a customer to use a discriminatory social medium platform to obtain a product or service from the business. Current § 230 caselaw gives an unfettered editorial discretion to the social medium platform to discriminate and to remove or to exclude a user. There is no evidence that Congress had an original intent of vitiating all civil rights and common carriage anti-discrimination law.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:6

intellectually dishonest

Umm… that is you dude.

I have destroyed every argument you have put forth that Twitter is a common carrier.

That you are twisting everything you wish Twitter to be in order to be a common carrier is you being intellectually dishonest.

YOU EVEN ADMITTED TO ME AS MUCH!!!!

You stated that a @{user name} looks enough like an address to a judge

Essentially admitting that Tweets do not have carriage nor deliver because they do not have destination address.

That you think you can fool a judge with your lies is a textbook case of somebody being intellectually dishonest.

You are a talking definition of intellectual dishonesty because nothing you say is grounded in FACTS. Only WISHES.

I have destroyed every single WISH of yours with indisputable facts that prove Twitter is not a common carrier because TWITTER DOES NOT PROVIDE CARRIAGE!! PERIOD FULL STOP. You can’t argue against that FACT, because it is a FACT, INDISPUTABLE!

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:6

We [are] arguing to convince the judges to create new caselaw.

Wait a minute. Doesn’t saying that mean that you lack an actual on-point citation for all your bullshit⁠—that the law and the courts don’t actually support you like you keep claiming they do?

You can argue your shit until you’re blue in the face, but until your arguments are turned into binding law or legal precedent, your arguments don’t mean shit to any of us. Around here, you’re another shitty troll who wants to act like his opinion is fact. Fuck off already.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: What About the Public Support That Google/Alphabet Receives?

The Internet is a vast state-supported establishment, structure, or facility.

Google uses appurtenances, premises, communications, and devices, for which the public pays in order to make a lot of money.

In return, the public has every right to demand conduct that the public approves.

It’s a principle that goes back to American colonial law.

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Anonymous Coward says:

holds itself out to the public as ready and willing to serve the public indifferently and impartially to the limits of its capacity.

It is strange, that whenever I search for “wombats in the news” I keep getting results about wombats being in the news, instead of DeSantis Diatribes, Trump Tribulations, and articles about the dangers of polysaccarides to washing machines.

Maybe Google isn’t entirely indifferent in its search results?

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: The Florida Court of Appeals is much more confused than Judge Schuck

Did you read this passage (p.43) from the Florida statute?

Finally, Congress has distinguished internet companies from common carriers. The Telecommunications Act of 1996 explicitly differentiates “interactive computer services”—like social-media platforms—from “common carriers or telecommunications services.” See, e.g., 47 U.S.C. § 223(e)(6) (“Nothing in this section shall be construed to treat interactive computer services as common carriers or telecommunications carriers.”). And the Act goes on to provide protections for internet companies that are inconsistent with the traditional common-carrier obligation of indiscriminate service. In particular, it explicitly protects internet companies’ ability to restrict access to a plethora of material that they might consider “objectionable.” Id. § 230(c)(2)(A). Federal law’s recognition and protection of social-media platforms’ ability to discriminate among messages—disseminating some but not others—is strong evidence that they are not common carriers with diminished First Amendment rights.

The Court of Appeals for the 11th Circuit misinterpreted 47 U.S.C. § 223(e)(6).

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re: What Was an Interactive Computer Service in 1996?

The phrase Interactive Computer Service (ICS) of 47 U.S. Code § 230 refers to a technology that is obsolete and is no longer used. Back in the middle 90s, we also called an ICS an “Internet On-Ramp” or an “Internet Portal”. An ICS is a system that exists at the edge of the Internet/WWW and is mostly outside the Internet/WWW.

Common Carrier Holding of the Opinion of the Court of Appeals of the Eleventh Circuit in Netchoice v. Florida

The holding is highly qualified.

Quite the contrary, if social-media platforms currently possess the First Amendment right to exercise editorial judgment, as we hold it is substantially likely they do, then any law infringing that right—even one bearing the terminology of “common carri[age]”—should be assessed under the same standards that apply to other laws burdening First-Amendment-protected activity.

Please read the highlighted part of the 11th Circuit Netchoice Opinion. You might want to go read Stratton Oakmont, Inc. v. Prodigy Servs., undefined (N.Y. Sup. Ct. May. 24, 1995). It mentions the Web but not the Internet because in 1996 the vast majority of people did not have a local home network and a DSL/FIBER/Cable modem router to connect to the Internet. An Internet On-Ramp in 1996 would provide access to Internet website but was limited in the other Internet access that was provided. In 1991 a case like Cubby, Inc. v. Compuserve Inc., 776 F. Supp. 135 (S.D.N.Y. 1991) mentions neither the Internet nor the Web.

A home user did not access the Internet directly. People accessed the Internet through an Interactive Computer Service like AOL, Prodigy, or CompuServe. These Interactive Computer Services were constructed outside the Internet and predate the World Wide Web. They were electronic black boards on steroids and offered online or distributed gaming. Around 1995 these Interactive Computer Services turned into portals to Internet. They began to be called Internet On-Ramps. Later they were all completely integrated into the Internet, and ICSs/Internet On-Ramps ceased to exist, but in 1996, not one was comparable to an Internet social medium platform like Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, Quora, etc. Internet On-Ramps were specifically exempted from federal telecommunications common carrier law because the FCC really does not know how to regulate the “local loop” so to speak.

One should be able to argue strongly that a social medium platform of 2021-2 is not an ICS of 1996 and that § 230 does not apply to a social medium platform. (Or so I believe. IANAL.)

[In my filings I used the phrase social medium ICS to distinguish a modern social medium platform from an ICS of 1996. I prefer the phrase social medium platform and will adopt it if the Court of Appeals for the First Circuit revives my case and if I can file an amended complaint. I have already begun to receive unsolicited crowdfunding. Every social medium platform has a multitude that is tremendously annoyed at it. I am completely apolitical except for Palestine. My fiancée Olivia is Palestinian. She tells me I am Palestinian by نكاح. The IDF is just as likely to murder me as it is to murder Olivia when we visit her family in a refugee camp in the OT. The IDF may be more likely to murder me because I am Jewish and because the IDF considers me to be a traitor.]

In my litigation I talk a little bit about the network world of 1996. My litigation differs from that of Florida because the Court sits in diversity jurisdiction and is adjudicating Massachusetts common carrier law. I explicitly pointed out that Massachusetts common carrier law has always coexisted with federal telecommunications law.

Because Internet On-Ramps/Interactive Computer Services don’t really exist any more, these clauses of the relevant statutes are somewhat opaque and probably obsolete.

[Note that an ICS provides access to the Internet — something that a 2022 social medium platform does not do.]

47 U.S.C. § 223(e)(6)

The Commission may describe measures which are reasonable, effective, and appropriate to restrict access to prohibited communications under subsection (d). Nothing in this section authorizes the Commission to enforce, or is intended to provide the Commission with the authority to approve, sanction, or permit, the use of such measures. The Commission shall have no enforcement authority over the failure to utilize such measures. The Commission shall not endorse specific products relating to such measures. The use of such measures shall be admitted as evidence of good faith efforts for purposes of paragraph (5) in any action arising under subsection (d). Nothing in this section shall be construed to treat interactive computer services as common carriers or telecommunications carriers.

47 U.S. Code § 230 (f)(2)

Interactive computer service
The term “interactive computer service” means any information service, system, or access software provider that provides or enables computer access by multiple users to a computer server, including specifically a service or system that provides access to the Internet and such systems operated or services offered by libraries or educational institutions.

[You might find it worthwhile to read the AOL Wikipage.]

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2

The phrase Interactive Computer Service (ICS) of 47 U.S. Code § 230 refers to a technology that is obsolete and is no longer used.

As it is explicitly defined by the law and as the authors of that law intended it to mean, it encompasses a lot more than the specific technology you refer to. That ICS in other contexts refer to that specific technology and that that technology is obsolete and no longer used doesn’t change what the law actually says or what it was intended to say, neither of which are limited in that way.

As it is defined in the law and was intended to include, even using your own citation, providing internet service was never a necessary condition to be an ICS. It does explicitly state that ISPs (which are defined in a way that most certainly is not specific to the internet-on-rails technology you reference at all) in particular are included, but that was part of a nonexhaustive list of examples of things that fit the previously stated criteria, which includes providing or enabling access to a computer server by multiple users. Twitter does provide/enable access to a computer server(s) by multiple users: its own.

In fact, it never says the internet at all except to note that services that provide access to the internet are explicitly included, nor does it ever describe the means by which such access is to be provided to fall under the this definition. It also noted an example of intranet service (specifically in educational institutions), and it never says that provision of access to the internet at all is a necessary condition for being an ICS; only that that is a sufficient condition (and, again, the specific technology used to provide that access is never specified, something that was very much intentional). That bit about specifically including those services is to ensure that there is no ambiguity that those are included in the definition and was never meant to exclude anything that doesn’t get specifically mentioned like that.

Worth noting is that the cases that motivated the writing of §230 involved defendants that fit neither of the two cases specifically listed. It doesn’t make any sense to write a law meant to overturn those rulings but exclude such cases from being involved. And since the internet is only specifically mentioned in one of the two specifically mentioned cases and not in the definition, there is no reason to assume that that was what they intended.

It should also be noted that §230(c) protects both ICSs and users, and unless you want to argue that Twitter does not use an ISP, it would clearly be protected under that even if it wasn’t an ICS under §230(f)(2) (which it absolutely is).

All of this is completely ignoring the abundance of precedent in the case law in every federal judicial circuit that has explicitly held that Twitter and other similar services absolutely are ICSs.

The idea that social media services are not ICSs under §230 (or under §223(e)(6) for that matter) is completely frivolous. That there was once a technology at the time called an “Interactive Computer Service” when §230 was written which is no longer used is irrelevant given the fact that an explicit definition is given in the statute that makes it clear that it’s a lot broader than that.

ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4 There is no federal common law (except in certain rare situations).

Here is the federal statute.

47 U.S. Code § 230 (f)(2)

Interactive computer service

The term “interactive computer service” means any information service, system, or access software provider that provides or enables computer access by multiple users to a computer server, including specifically a service or system that provides access to the Internet and such systems operated or services offered by libraries or educational institutions.

How does the above definition apply of a 2022 social medium platform?

I know how the definition applies to AOL, Compuserve, and Prodigy in 1996.

Such an Internet On-Ramp does not exist in 2022.

A federal court has no authority to rewrite or to create federal law.

If a lower federal court violates Constitution Article I Section I, SCOTUS must slap that Court down hard and explain the actual law. SCOTUS has done so in the past and seems poised to do so again in several areas.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:6 When I link to Twitter, I access the Twitter cloud service

47 U.S. Code § 230 (f)(2) describes a 2-stage process at the edge of the Internet.

The first step is access the ICS.

The second step is access the Internet.

The Twitter service does not act in this way.

Twitter is not an access service to other services. Twitter is the service the user wishes to access.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:8 Nice Try But It's Now How a Law is Construed!

…information service, system, or access software provider that provides or enables computer access by multiple users to a computer server, including specifically a service or system that provides access to the Internet and such systems operated or services offered by libraries or educational institutions.

You want to restrict the relative clause “that provides…” to the last noun, but system is too generic and must be qualified. The relative clause restricts information service as much as it restricts system and access software provider.

An ICS is a specific sort of Information Service. A 2022 social medium platform does not conform to the definition.

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:9

What? No! Look, the verbs “provides” and “enables” reference what is being done by the “information service”, the “system”, or the “access software provider”, “access by multiple users to a server” refers to what is being “provide[d] or enable[d]” such, and the relative clause “including specifically” is a non-exhaustive list of specific examples of ICSs as defined.

And yes, a 2022 social media platform absolutely qualifies.

Again, I seriously question your reading comprehension.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:8 Information Service Has Specific Statutory Meaning

See 47 USC § 153(24).

information service

The term “information service” means the offering of a capability for generating, acquiring, storing, transforming, processing, retrieving, utilizing, or making available information via telecommunications, and includes electronic publishing, but does not include any use of any such capability for the management, control, or operation of a telecommunications system or the management of a telecommunications service.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:9

Why are you so desperate to get back on Twitter to attack your enemies that you will redefine the meaning of definitions to make Twitter what it isn’t, and that is a telecommunications service, where it is plainly a multi user data storage and manipulation system connected to a telecommunications system. Are you that driven by hated that you would burn the world down to get at those you have designated as enemies?

ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:10 Section 230 Made 1996 AOL, Compuserve, and Prodigy Network Equivalents of the Corner Newstand or a Bookstore

Neither the corner newstand nor a bookstore has unfettered editorial discretion.

Section 230 says nothing about 2021-2022 Social Medium Platforms and has become obsolete.

I go through the argument in the Memorandum in Support of Motion for Reconsideration in Martillo v. Twitter. Here are the Exhibits.

Communications Decency Act of 1996

-37. The Internet/WWW of the middle 1990s differed greatly from the Internet/WWW of today. Some of the caselaw of the CDA is reasonable (e.g., that in Jane Doe even though it refers to the Zeran logical leap). Other caselaw like that in Noah makes no sense whatsoever. Such caselaw can perhaps be understood to result from a lack of understanding of modern science and engineering. A party, who should present his case competently and knowledgeably to a Court, bears more of blame for the insanity than a judge, who has the nearly impossible role of balancing fidelity to judicial role, statutory meaning, and statutory text in face of inability of the parties to present the facts comprehensible.

-38. In 1996 Internet Service Providers were putting mostly corporate users online and were only beginning to experiment with providing a retail service to individuals; Compuserve, Prodigy, and AOL only provided limited mostly dialup services; a few companies – including the startup Hotmail – began to offer free, use-anywhere, Internet email by means of an email-service-provider-specific WWW browser interface; and a few companies like Geocities and Tibus were beginning to provide webhosting services that would allow paper journals to migrate online.

-39. The prologue – especially clause 47 U.S. Code § 230 (b) – precisely declares intent of this statute. There was neither intent nor text in the statute (a) to create a private entity that has tremendous power over public political discussion or (b) to immunize the private entity against liability for the damage that it does to the political system. Congress did not intend to create an vastly powerful but often unscrupulous, venal, and opportunistic controller of public discourse or to give this controller the liability-free ability to harm the political, social, cultural, and judicial system of the USA. In 47 U.S. Code § 230 (a)(2) and (b)(3), Congress emphasizes the importance of user control. In clause (a)(3), Congress emphasizes the value of diversity, cultural development, and intellectual activities.

-40. Congress intended to create an Internet/WWW version (a) of a newspaper shop like Nini’s Corner formerly in Harvard Square, (b) of a public utility that provides the stand with service, or (c) of a shipper that provides the newspaper shop with merchandise.

-41. Each of the three entities has neither liability nor legal exposure qua either publisher or speaker of content, which appears in journals stocked by Nini’s corner, if the entity is not a creator of the content.

-42. Likewise under the CDA, the Internet/WWW counterparts of these three entities were to bear neither liability nor legal exposure for content these counterparts did not create.

-43. Arguendo, if it is posited that the newspaper shop does not vend food, for the moment it is not necessary to address the Title II CRA aspects of this model.
44. Arguendo, if it is posited that the newspaper shop is located among many law firms that need courier service, which the shop offers, the owner may make the following choices (a-b) and is under the following legal restriction (c).
a. The owner does not stock Hustler and more obscene magazines. He restricts availability.
b. The owner stocks Playboy because he considers it to be less obscene and to have articles of merit, but he keeps it out of sight and only sells it to someone over 21. He restricts access.
c. If a customer wants to hire the common carriage the shop holds out, the owner cannot deny the carriage to the customer (except for a well-defined reason) and in Massachusetts incurs a fine of $50 to $500 per denial of common carriage.3

-45. Each Defendant offers services besides common carriage, but the services are intertwined. If a common carrier ICS wants the limited immunity of the CDA, it can disentangle the services.

-46. Defendants Stanford Daily and Harvard Crimson may seem like pure electronic publishers but have chosen to mix distribution services with common carriage. The editorial discretion of a publisher means choosing which letters or comments sent to the editor will be published. The editor of a newspaper selects each letter that is published in the traditional paper newspaper. The Interactive Computer Service and Website named Mondoweiss follows this model exactly. With respect to distributed content, Mondoweiss is shielded against a defamation complaint by the CDA. Each Defendant permits a user to send a text directly to the author of a text and to exchange text messages with other users that wish to comment on the text. Each Defendant has chosen to intertwine CDA-shielded distribution service with common carriage service, about which the CDA is completely silent. By common carriage law each Defendant is precluded from removing a user or his content.

-47. Nini’s Corner sold food. Yet, it really was not set up for patrons to eat on the premises. It can be assumed arguendo that Nini’s Corner expanded its services to include on-premises food consumption and thus would qualify to be a public accommodation under 42 U.S. Code § 2000a (b)(2) & (c).

47 U.S. Code § 230 (c)(1) Treatment of publisher or speaker

-48. Clause (c)(1) shields an Internet/WWW ICS in the role of Nini’s Corner or its suppliers from liability for the content hosted just as Nini’s Corner and its suppliers bear no liability for the content of the journals Nini’s corner sells. The clause simply states the ICS is not like a publisher with respect to a defamation or similar claim. It is an unjustifiable logical leap (inverse error) to believe the clause renders the ICS otherwise like a publisher. When a Court (a) gives an ICS unfettered editorial discretion in part on the basis of this clause and (b) potentially negatives Title II of the CRA for an immense class of public accommodations (see section Summary: Undoing the 1964 CRA, p. 10.), the Court legislates and is unfaithful to its role in the American system. The CDA gives an ICS no more immunity to civil liabilities than Nini’s Corner, its utility, and its shipper have.

47 U.S. Code § 230 (c)(2) Civil liability (A)

-49. Clause (c)(2)(A) merely states that the ICS not holding out common carriage may remove a user or content if either is objectionable in some way. The clause also states that ICS must act voluntarily and in good faith. An ICS does not have unfettered editorial discretion to remove either a user or content.

-50. The qualifying adverb “voluntarily” is important in the case of unlawful discrimination under civil rights law because occasionally a public accommodation has perpetrated unlawful discrimination because of racist pressure just as Zionist movement organizes and mobilizes to pressure an ICS to discriminate against a Palestinian, an Arab, a Muslim, and a Diaspora Jew that like the Plaintiff rejects the bigoted, racist, and antisemitic Zionist ideology that claims the Jewish Diaspora is a waste and that a Diaspora Jew like the Plaintiff is defective.

-51. The prepositional phrase “in good faith” is important because it indicates that an ICS is bound by the Covenant of Good Faith and and Fair Dealing when it makes such a removal. Because each Defendant engages in unlawful civil rights discrimination against the Plaintiff, each ICS acts unfairly and not in good faith in its treatment of him.

-52. Each Defendant may be violating the requirement of good faith in another way. European Zionist invaders founded the Zionist state by acts of genocide after the start of the international anti-genocide legal regime in the caselaw of the 1946 Nuremberg Tribunal. The Alien Tort Statute and possibly the Foreign Sovereign Immunities Act enable international anti-genocide law and the international law of expropriation in the US federal civil code. Ongoing genocide of Palestinians has never stopped. An act of genocide became criminal in the US criminal code in 1987 when the USA enabled the international anti-genocide convention in the US federal criminal code. (See Footnote 21.) Determination of involvement in genocide is a legal not a political question according to Al-Tamimi v. Adelson, No. 17-5207 (D.C. Cir. 2019).The US federal criminal code defines genocide to be a form of terrorism in 18 U.S. Code § 2339A – Providing material support to terrorists. Because the Zionist movement tries to guarantee that US genocide and material support law is never enforced against a US Zionist, an app like Act.Il directs a member of the Zionist movement to pressure an ICS. An ICS under such pressure may aid genocide and give material support to terrorism. At present the DOJ seems to confer a “pass” on the Zionist movement to commit with impunity federal crimes of genocide or of material support to terrorists. If so, the US government may selectively prosecute an alleged perpetrator of a federal terrorism crime. Such selective prosecution ruins US legal system. The situation should be discussed openly. Yet, every Defendant participates in suppressing discussion. Involvement of a Defendant in this ongoing suppression is evidence of bad faith linked to unlawful maybe criminal activity.

ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:12 Such Obvious Misdirection

Section 230 was written in 1996. The technology to which the statute was directed was obsolete and vanished by 2000. Twitter’s original service was not even an Internet service. It was an SMS service. A common carriage service, which used a common carriage service — a situation, which the 1869 Massachusetts common carriage statutes encompass.

Toom1275 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:12

Several commenters, including AT&T, assert that Section 230 was conceived as a way to protect an infant industry, and that it was written with the antiquated internet of the 1990s in mind – not the robust, ubiquitous internet we know today. As authors of the statute, we particularly wish to put this urban legend to rest.

Section 230, originally named the Internet Freedom and Family Empowerment Act, H.R. 1978, was designed to address the obviously growing problem of individual web portals being overwhelmed with user-created content. This is not a problem the internet will ever grow out of; as internet usage and content creation continue to grow, the problem grows ever bigger. Far from wishing to offer protection to an infant industry, our legislative aim was to recognize the sheer implausibility of requiring each website to monitor all of the user-created content that crossed its portal each day.

Critics of Section 230 point out the significant differences between the internet of 1996 and today. Those differences, however, are not unanticipated. When we wrote the law, we believed the internet of the future was going to be a very vibrant and extraordinary opportunity for people to become educated about innumerable subjects, from health care to technological innovation to their own fields of employment. So we began with these two propositions: let’s make sure that every internet user has the opportunity to exercise their First Amendment rights; and let’s deal with the slime and horrible material* on the internet by giving both websites and their users the tools and the legal protection necessary to take it down.

The march of technology and the profusion of e-commerce business models over the last two decades represent precisely the kind of progress that Congress in 1996 hoped would follow from Section 230’s protections for speech on the internet and for the websites that host it. The increase in user-created content in the years since then is both a desired result of the certainty the law provides, and further reason that the law is needed more than ever in today’s environment.

\* aka Thors’s terroristic derangement

ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:13 Whose First Amendment Rights?

Critics of Section 230 point out the significant differences between the internet of 1996 and today. Those differences, however, are not unanticipated. When we wrote the law, we believed the internet of the future was going to be a very vibrant and extraordinary opportunity for people to become educated about innumerable subjects, from health care to technological innovation to their own fields of employment. So we began with these two propositions: let’s make sure that every internet user has the opportunity to exercise their First Amendment rights; and let’s deal with the slime and horrible material* on the internet by giving both websites and their users the tools and the legal protection necessary to take it down.

The statute is so specific that it does not apply 2022 social medium platforms.

The Courts, which misapply obsolete Section 230, worry about the First Amendment rights of social medium platforms that only exist because of public support and batten off the US federal government largesse.

The following two cases say it all.

  1. Pruneyard Shopping Center v. Robins, 447 U.S. 74, 100 S. Ct. 2035 (1980).
  2. Turner Broadcasting System, Inc. v. Federal Communications Commission, 512 U.S. 622, 114 S. Ct. 2445 (1994).

If one believes that these two cases are specific to shopping centers and malls or to specific “must carry” provisions of federal law, one does not how to interpret caselaw. The core issue is the balancing of First Amendment rights.

Pruneyard and Turner were not state-supported but modern social medium platforms are. When public support of state supported social medium platforms is factored into equation, the First Amendment rights of the public must win out.

Olivia and I are only terrorists because we love each other. Such Arab-Jewish miscegenation drives depraved white racial supremacist Zionist anti-Jews ballistic just as black-white romance drives white racists ballistics.

Supporters of social medium censorship are contemptible pro-discrimination pro-racism pro-genocide bigots. It’s hard to be more vile and disgusting.

Toom1275 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:14

The following two cases say it all.

Yes, they say unequicovably that you either understand absolutely nothing about their caselaw and their applicability to modern online platforms, or you are knowingly and deliberately lying. you’ve had this explained to you already but you instead choose to maintain your fraudulent claims.

Supporters of social medium censorship are contemptible pro-discrimination pro-racism pro-genocide bigots. It’s hard to be more vile and disgusting.

… projects the only one here demanding censorship to support their pro-genocide bigotry.

ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:15 Only Racial Supremacist Zionist Colonial Setter Anti-Jews and Their Supporters Claim Palestinians are pro-Genocide

Palestinians want their homes, property, and country back, which vicious bloodthirsty white racial supremacist Zionist colonial settlers stole in an atrocious genocide that started in Dec 1947 and that has never ended.

Anti-genocide became jus cogens in Dec 1946.

Yet, this assertion did not get Olivia and me banned.

Olivia tweeted that I was Palestinian by f*ck.

I tweeted she was sweet because she overlooked my family’s role in planning and perpetrating the Nakba.

I tweeted that I loved her with my all my heart, and Zionists went wild in mob reporting us because Zionists are like Jim Crow white racists, who lynched a Black, who dated a white.

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7

Nowhere in §230(f)(2) does it state—implicitly or explicitly—that the servers to be accessed cannot be the ICS’s. You’re reading something into the statute that simply isn’t there.

Twitter provides access to its servers to multiple simultaneous computers controlled by users. That it owns the servers is irrelevant. This is very obviously well within the statutes definition of an ICS.

It also does not—as you assert—describe a two-stage process. Nor does it say anything about access to the internet except as one of two specifically mentioned examples of an ICS under the definition. The definition itself says nothing about access to the internet at all. It is sufficient to allow or enable access to the internet, but that is not a requirement. And nothing in the statute treats “access to the internet” as distinct from “access to the ICS”.

The statute states that any service (or whatever) that provides or enables multi-user access to at least one server is an ICS, and that services that provide access to the internet and similar services used by educational institutions are to be explicitly included. Nothing about whose server it is, nothing about two steps (one to the ICS, one to the internet), and the only mention of the internet at all is that any service that provides access to the internet is specifically included. I have no idea where you got your idea about ICSs from, but it sure doesn’t come from any remotely sensible reading of this statute.

Frankly, I’m beginning to question whether or not you even understand how words work. You quoted the statute verbatim, and the quote appears to be completely accurate, but then you say things about it that clearly aren’t true. Having a technical background only makes it even more clear that you’re wrong, but the plain language alone simply doesn’t support what you say at all.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:8 Twitter Service Does Not Rethread -- It Can't

The first Twitter Server you reach is the one used for the session. §230(f)(2) specifies that the User starts at the ICS and goes to “a computer server, including specifically a service or system that provides access to the Internet and such systems operated or services offered by libraries or educational institutions”. Twitter does not qualify to be an ICS under the definition of §230(f)(2).

PTAB Tribunals and Article III courts always accept my claim construction. I studied with the top linguistics scholars and thoroughly know syntax and semantics.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:9

Twitter does not qualify to be an ICS under the definition of §230(f)(2).

And if you could cite the law, statute, or court ruling that directly and explicitly agrees with your assertion such that said assertion is binding law, you can settle this argument right now.

No opinions about rulings that disagree with your bullshit. None of your copypastas or inane ramblings. None of your trying to engender sympathy by whining about reportbombings or bringing up your ethnicity/religion/political beliefs. I want a direct, on-point citation of law with the exact language⁠—all of it⁠—that says your assertions about Twiiter⁠—and explicitly about Twitter alone⁠—are binding legal precedent. Back your shit up or leave; I don’t care which.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:10 I have cited the statutes

The specific meaning of 47 U.S. Code § 230 is at issue now in the Supreme Court, three federal courts, and one state court. There is a tidal wave about to wash out the current bad caselaw. The judges are about to decide the correct meaning of § 230. So don’t pretend there is settled law. There is a lot of tremendously bad law, which is associated with § 230.

Roe v. Wade was decided on January 22, 1973 almost 50 years ago. It was a crappy decision. It is about to be overturned. Good riddance. I hope that by this time next year I can write the same about § 230 caselaw.

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bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:13

I don’t believe you can hold your breath for days, which is absolutely the minimum it would take for even one case to go through that explicitly supports your claims simply on a logistical basis, and you certainly won’t be able to do so for years. This “tidal wave” isn’t going to happen any time soon.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:12 I have no position on abortion

If I were a woman, I would not abort a fetus, but I am not a woman. My opinion does not count.

I want to make kids with Olivia, but it’s Olivia’s decision to open up her baby factory for business.

I dislike a questionable legal decision like NetChoice v. Florida, No. 21-12355 (11th Cir.), Opinion, May 23, 2022.

I loathe a crappy legal decision like Roe v. Wade, 410 U.S. 113, 93 S. Ct. 705 (1973).

I would have argued a federal right to abortion by means of the 13th Amendment.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:13

I dislike a questionable legal decision like NetChoice v. Florida, No. 21-12355 (11th Cir.), Opinion, May 23, 2022.

That sucks for you. Until a higher court rules otherwise, that ruling is legal precedent within the Eleventh Circuit. Your opinion of the ruling won’t change that fact even if you wish really really hard.

ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:16 The Entire Decision

The majority did not write an opinion, but I suspect the grant of vacatur was a matter of equitable discretion. 5-4 grant is not so impressive.

The presence of Kagan among the dissenters suggests my arguments may be getting traction with SCOTUS. It’s impressive. On a matter of equitable discretion I would probably have voted for vacator if I had been on SCOTUS. I am acquainted with Kagan from Harvard. She is usually even more sympathetic to an argument of equitable discretion than I am.

The application (21A720) to vacate stay presented to Justice Alito and by him referred to the Court is granted. The May 11, 2022 order of the United States Court of Appeals for the Fifth Circuit staying the district court’s preliminary injunction is vacated. Justice Kagan would deny the application to vacate stay. Justice Alito, with whom Justice Thomas and Justice Gorsuch join, dissenting from grant of application to vacate stay. (Detached Opinion)

ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:18 Are you saying that if the majority had voted against vacatur, Kagan would have voted for vacatur?

I doubt the protest vote hypothesis. Kagan is more direct in her shadow-docket grievance, and no justice would decide a case on anything but law or equity.

The litigation is nowhere near ready for petition for writ of certiorari.

If SCOTUS might overturn caselaw, it will grant certiorari.

In this case, constitutionality and not merits constitutes the issue. There is a tendency to defer to a state except in a clear case of an unconstitutional state law.

The social medium platforms argue that reporting is costly and constitutes serious possibly even irreparable harm.

If and only if Kagan believes the law to be constitutional and § 230 is no obstacle, would she vote to allow enforcement.

Below are the 4 reasons to stay enforcement of a state law — in this litigation stay of enforcement of a state law is vacatur.

In brief, 4 justices believe that the Texas law to be constitutional and that § 230 presents no obstacle. (In such a situation, cost of reporting is of no consequence and does not constitute harm.)

One justice needs to be persuaded that the state law is Constitutional and that § 230 is no obstacle.

  1. There is a “reasonable probability” that four Justices will grant certiorari and rule on constitutionality of the state law as well as possibly on the relevance of § 230.
  2. There is a “fair prospect” that a majority of the Court will conclude upon review that the state law is unconstitutional and make no ruling on § 230.
  3. Irreparable harm will result from failing to stay law enforcement. (The state law is constitutional, but a federal law prevents harmful enforcement.)
  4. Finally, in a close case of constitutionality, a justice may find it appropriate to balance the equities, by exploring the relative harms to the applicant and respondent, as well as the interests of the public at large.
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bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:9

The first Twitter Server you reach is the one used for the session. §230(f)(2) specifies that the User starts at the ICS and goes to “a computer server, including specifically a service or system that provides access to the Internet and such systems operated or services offered by libraries or educational institutions”.

That’s not what it says. This part…

including specifically a service or system that provides access to the Internet and such systems operated or services offered by libraries or educational institutions

…is 1) not exhaustive and 2) meant as a list of examples of ICSs, not servers. Also, nowhere does it ever mention the involvement of two distinct servers. The term “server” only appears once, and it is clearly singular. It doesn’t specify that the user starts at the ICS’s server, either.

An ICS is literally any service or system that provides access to a server to multiple computer devices. Again, that’s clearly what it says.

You seriously have to stretch the meaning of the term to reach your interpretation, and doing so would not be the most parsimonious or logical interpretation given the legislative history, the stated intent of the authors, and subsequent court rulings.

As for your claim construction, setting aside that that’s an incredibly low bar (and that I have no evidence of this), your writing ability is not what I’m questioning; it’s your reading comprehension. These are two completely different skills. I know some amazing writers who fail miserably at basic reading comprehension.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:10 You guys nitpick the meaning of common carrier

With much more logic I do it with the meaning of ICS.

For it to mean what you guys want it to mean §230(f)(2) would have to say something like the following.

The term “interactive computer service” means

(A) any information service, system, or access software provider that provides or enables computer access by multiple users to a computer server, including specifically a service or system that provides access to the Internet and such systems operated or services offered by libraries or educational institutions or

(B) a computer server that is in the Internet.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:11

You guys nitpick the meaning of common carrier

So do the courts. Or do you think they’re going to roll over for you because you think you’re smarter than everyone else?

For it to mean what you guys want it to mean §230(f)(2) would have to say something like the following.

That particular part of Section 230 means what we say it means because the authors of the damn thing and various judicial rulings over the years have said that part of Section 230 means what we say it means. You can’t cite a single ruling that says otherwise and you fucking know it.

We nitpick because you keep saying dumb bullshit that isn’t in the law or judicial precedent. If you think your bullshit is going to make anyone here change their mind on the matter, you’ve deluded yourself to the point where you’re coming off as someone who could have their picture put on the Wikipedia page for the Dunning-Kruger effect. Cite actual, on-point, it-says-what-you-claim-it-says case law or leave.

ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:12 Study the Caselaw!

It’s fairly easy to identify exactly when CDA caselaw went off into the Twilight Zone — something that SCOTUS should correct because the Court of Appeals for the Fourth Circuit was legislating and not adjudicating.

-54. [Zeran] The poison starts in Zeran v. America Online, Inc., 129 F.3d 327, 330 (4th Cir. 1997). The Appellate Court upholds the District Court in Zeran v. America Online, Inc., 958 F. Supp. 1124 (E.D. Va. 1997) The former decision materially differs from latter (allowed) but butchers the statute’s logic (inverse error – not allowed). …

Zeran District Court

-55. The Zeran District Court deletes the critical adverb “voluntarily” from § 230 (c)(2)(A).

[22] Section 230(c) creates two distinct forms of immunity. Subsection (c) (1), discussed above, immunizes interactive computer service providers and users from defamation liability premised on theories similar to that proposed in Stratton Oakmont and, indeed, in this case. See supra Part III-B-2. On the other hand, subsection (c) (2) precludes holding an interactive computer service provider or user liable on account of (i) actions taken in good faith to restrict access to material that the provider or user deems objectionable, and (ii) actions taken to provide others with the technical means to restrict access to objectionable material. Thus, § 230(c) (2) appears to immunize such providers and users from causes of action brought by persons whose material is screened or blocked from the Internet. In sum, § 230 provides immunity for Internet providers against causes of action brought by persons alleging harm, such as defamation injury, resulting from the dissemination of material, § 230(c) (1), and causes of action brought by persons alleging harm resulting from the deletion or restriction, of their material. § 230(c) (2). Section 230 was expressly not intended to provide immunity for a cause of action for “cancelblotting”, wherein recipients of a message respond to the message by deleting the message from the computer systems of others without having the right to do so. See H.R. Rep. 104-458, at 194.)

Zeran Appellate Court

-56. The Appellate Court does not even mention § 230 (c)(2)(A) but seems to rewrite § 230 (c)(1) and § 230 (c)(2)(A) into one clause even though the latter clause contains no mention of a publisher.

The relevant portion of § 230 states: “No provider or user of an interactive computer service shall be treated as the publisher or speaker of any information provided by another information content provider.” 47 U.S.C. § 230(c)(1).[2] By its plain language, § 230 creates a federal immunity to any cause of action that would make service providers liable for information originating with a third-party user of the service.

Specifically, § 230 precludes courts from entertaining claims that would place a computer service provider in a publisher’s role. Thus, lawsuits seeking to hold a service provider liable for its exercise of a publisher’s traditional editorial functions – such as deciding whether to publish, withdraw, postpone or alter content – are barred.

-57. The District Court made no reference to anything like “publisher’s traditional editorial functions.”

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:11

No, because how we define it is explicitly the former as Twitter fits perfectly within it. You just don’t understand that. Twitter’s servers are not in the internet; they are accessible through the internet. For it to be in the internet would mean that it is part of the infrastructure of the internet itself (stuff like what the ISP’s servers might do).

Twitter offers an “information service […] that provides or enables computer access by multiple users to a computer server“, specifically its own. That makes it an ICS. This interpretation is supported by the legislative history, testimony by the authors of the statute, and numerous judicial rulings about it, not to mention a plain reading of the statute and basic logical reasoning.. Your interpretation is supported only by your very tortured reading that makes no sense whatsoever, if that (since, again, nothing in the statute, even with your construction, ever mentions a second server is involved at all even by implication).

And yes, we nitpick the definition of “common carrier” because that’s exactly what courts do!

ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:12 Re:10 Can You Tell Me What This Patent Is Claiming?

It’s simple and only requires elementary graph theory to understand: Transparent load sharing for parallel networks. A patent to an invention, which involves deep science can be much more difficult to understand. I can represent an inventor in the prosecution of any patent application. I can also represent a patentee in an Inter Partes Review or an Ex Parte Review.

While any inventor can attempt to prosecute his own application, I can represent an inventor at the USPTO. Most attorneys cannot pass the USPTO patent bar exam.

In District Court claim construction is subject to a special hearing, which is called the Markman hearing, which is adversarial. The presiding magistrate must be persuaded of the contruction by technical, linguistic, semantic, and syntactic arguments. While anyone could pretend to be an expert, the presiding judge will judge credentials, any expert report, and the final R&R. He has the ultimate decision whether to accept the claim construction.

Claim construction is not for the feint-hearted.

ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:12 A Private Cloud Is Within the Internet by Address Translation and Reverse Proxy

When I use Twitter, it is not an Interactive Computer Service that provides access to a server (identified distinctly from the Interactive Computer Service itself) or to the Internet. The Twitter service to which I connect is the server. In Section 230 two distinct words are used: Interactive Computer Service and Server. They must be distinct unless explicitly specified possibly to be the same device. In addition, Twitter is not providing access to the Internet. Twitter is in the Internet — a completely different topology and technology.

ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:10 Can You Tell Me What This Patent Is Claiming?

It’s simple and only requires elementary graph theory to understand: (Transparent load sharing for parallel networks)[https://patents.google.com/patent/US5018137A/en?q=load+sharing+bridge&inventor=backes&oq=backes+load+sharing+bridge]. A patent to an invention, which involves deep science can be much more difficult to understand. I can represent an inventor in the prosecution of any patent application. I can also represent a patentee in an Inter Partes Review or an Ex Parte Review.

While any inventor can attempt to prosecute his own application, I can represent an inventor at the USPTO. Most attorneys cannot pass the USPTO patent bar exam.

In District Court claim construction is subject to a special hearing, which is called the Markman hearing, which is adversarial. The presiding magistrate must be persuaded of the contruction by technical, linguistic, semantic, and syntactic arguments. While anyone could pretend to be an expert, the presiding judge will judge credentials, any expert report, and the final R&R. He has the ultimate decision whether to accept the claim construction.

Claim construction is not for the feint-hearted.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3 Which Cases?

Prodigy, AOL, and Compuserve were all Internet On-Ramps in 1996. §230 is crafted to them. §223 refers to dial-up Internet On-Ramps. It forbids use of the common carriage defense in the case of an obscene or harassing interstate or international phone call. The statute says nothing about an intrastate obscene or harassing phone call.

The Netchoice opinion of the Court of Appeals for the 11th Circuit is confused and off-point.

Pruneyard and Turner tell us that a private actor’s 1A rights are not infringed in certain circumstances. 2022 social medium platforms have even less of a claim of 1A infringement because these social medium platforms are so heavily funded.

Anonymous Coward says:

Call the bluffs

With Florida, Texas, and now Ohio competing with each other for the the title of ‘most ass backwards place to do business in,’ at what point will their targets call the bluff, and restrict service to users in those states, rather than address this bullshit?

At some point, their costs for the litigation will become significant, and it could feasibly lead to my consideration.

It’s technically possible, and certainly a viable response. Let folks see how happy they are when they try to find pictures of their grandkids on Parler or Gab.

Just another short-sighted experiment, by people who have no idea what they’re in for.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re:

Social media companies take “kickbacks” to keep “conservative” speech on those places.

And might I remind you that Google still wanted a piece of the China pie until the Senate fucking grilled them as to why they wanted to sell a censorship-friendly version of Google to China.

John85851 (profile) says:

Re:

I agree that Google should call their bluff.
When people in Ohio do a search, Google should show a message saying that, according to their elected politicians, Google isn’t allowed to “discriminate” so the results will have nothing to do with their search terms. Maybe you’ll get a good result, maybe you’ll get junk, or maybe you’ll get a virus site- who knows!

Don’t like this? Then use Duck Duck Go, Yahoo or Bing, which politicians never go after.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2 A Social Medium Platform is within the Internet

The Internet is state-supported.

The Internet is a vast federally supported facility or establishment which provides a place of public accommodation for resource sharing.

A social medium platform meets the requirements for Title II of the CRA of 1964 to kick in.

Please see 42 U.S. Code § 2000a – Prohibition against discrimination or segregation in places of public accommodation.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:3

The Internet is a vast federally supported facility or establishment

Detail the support you are claiming, as while the Telcos feed from the federal trough, the services like Google and Twitter pay an for and maintain their own infrastructure, up to and including trans ocean fiber.

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Rocky says:

Re: Re: Re:5

You do have a penchant for absurd logic without actually realizing that if it is taken to its conclusion encompasses every company in the US, and that means that every company in the US that transport something are common carriers using your “definition” since they benefit from federally funded infrastructure.

You are a crackpot.

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5

You could replace “Google and Twitter” with literally any business that inherently depends on interstate or international commerce and the statement would be just as accurate:

“The grocery store and that McDonalds just off the interstate highway make intrinsic use of US federal government facilities, apparatus, appurtences, premises, etc.

“Without tons of federal funding, that grocery store and I’m by McDonald’s could not exist or be profitable.”

So what? That means literally nothing. Google and Twitter are not run or owned by the US government, they do not act as federal agents, etc. Literally everyone in the country that isn’t holed up at home, growing their own food, having no phone or internet, generating its own electricity (if they use electricity at all), getting its water from a privately owned well or something, etc. depends heavily on government support to some extent or another. That doesn’t prove that Twitter or Google owe anything to the public beyond what they already do.

ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:6 The grocery or fast food business stops at the door of the grocery or the restaurant

Twitter’s message delivery service goes right to the end user’s computing device.

Twitter’s message delivery business does not exist without lines, switches, apparatus
1. for which the government pays,
2. which the government puts in place, and
3. which the government allows Twitter’s message delivery service to use for free.

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3

Roads are also state-supported. That doesn’t mean every service that uses roads is state-supported. If a pizzeria offers delivery, the fact that they use public roads to deliver the pizza doesn’t make the service state-supported. Also, the US doesn’t own or run the internet.

As for Title II, even assuming (without conceding) that a website is covered by that title, it only concerns discrimination solely or primarily on the basis of membership (or lack thereof) to one or more groups within a protected class, and protected classes are limited to religious beliefs/affiliation and to immutable characteristics (race, ethnicity, skin color, sex, gender identity, sexual orientation, age, or disabilities). The protected classes protected by Title II are also explicitly enumerated, and the list is intended to be exhaustive as far as that specific title is concerned. Political ideology, political affiliation, non-religious beliefs (aside from simply not being part of a religion or mere disbelief in one or more religious beliefs held by others), the content of one’s speech (even if that speech is lawful), and behavior (including expressive behavior) are not protected classes, either under Title II specifically or under any definition of a protected class that would survive 1A scrutiny.

As such, Title II would not support your objections to Twitter or other social media platforms.

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That One Guy (profile) says:

Even judges have that theme song, weird...

… Huh, I didn’t realize that the local news stand was a common carrier. They collect a bunch of magazines and papers, are available for the public to come to them and at no point deliver something beyond their reach, yet apparently they’re a common carrier nonetheless.

I wonder if they know that yet, or how long it will take before every crank and organization starts demanding that they carry anything someone presents to them since they no longer have any choice?

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re: It depends on the governing contracts!

I use a bicycle courier to deliver documents from Staples to the Boston Federal Court. This bicycle courier provides common carriage service to me.

In DC I use a carriage service that Staples arranges, but my agreement with Staples explicitly states that the carriage service works for me and not for Staples.

Amazon provides its own common carriage services for the delivery of goods. Amazon has complete common carrier liability and is always quick to replace a lost shipment.

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Koby (profile) says:

Misdirection

it still wasn’t clear what it would mean for Google to “not discriminate” against websites, because the entire point of a search engine is to discriminate. It ranks its results and those rankings are a form of discrimination: discriminating against less relevant and useful results in favor of more relevant and useful results.

A search engine is automated, and doesn’t take Google’s preferences into account. The goal of a search engine is to rank the relevance of websites according to the users’ preferences. If Google is manually overriding its algorithm, that’s where the discrimination occurs. It deliberately substitutes user preference for its owner’s political preference.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re:

The goal of a search engine is to rank the relevance of websites according to the users’ preferences.

The goal of a search engine is to provide relevant search results to all users. If a majority of users believe one site is more relevant to a given search than other sites, of course that site should rank higher⁠—even on your search results and even if you disagree with that relevancy.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re:

It deliberately substitutes user preference for its owner’s political preference.

And just how is the algorithm meant to find out what your preferences are. Google returns the most popular results as determined by users clicking on results. If the majority of users make a different choice as to what you would, the results will look like they are biased against you, from your viewpoint, but that is the bias of the majority of Google users showing.

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Mike Masnick (profile) says:

Re:

The goal of a search engine is to rank the relevance of websites according to the users’ preferences. If Google is manually overriding its algorithm, that’s where the discrimination occurs. It deliberately substitutes user preference for its owner’s political preference.

What kind of nonsense is this? You use Google because you like Google’s preferences. Google writes the algorithm. Every algorithmic choice is Google expressing its belief of what you will find most relevant. That’s it. The idea that Google could “override” the algorithm makes no sense. Google creates and tweaks the algorithm. It is the algorithm.

PaulT (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

They all have their uses, but I find that DDG and Bing are somewhere between annoying and useless with some basic search needs compared to Google. Each has their own flaws and benefits.

I’d also question why you’d be linking to a page of search results – are the people you’re sending to not capable of doing a search on their own? Can you not decide which result to use? Are you aware that people opening such a link will often get different search results to what you get depending on location, search history and when they open the link?

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Koby (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

What kind of nonsense is this? You use Google because you like Google’s preferences.

The ultimate test for a search engine would be if a user could be aware of all websites, and then the search algorithm would rank the relevancy the same as the user. Obviously this is impractical, but it goes to show how the “preference” is based on the ignorance of better results. So aside from the fact that I haven’t used google search in years, no, users do not necessarily prefer searches containing results with a manual override versus the organic algorithm results. It’s similar to cases of discrimination against minorities in finance; only afterward do they realize that they were denied financing wrongly, and that they should have received a different outcome. It’s excellent reason for oversight of a common carrier.

Mike Masnick (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

So aside from the fact that I haven’t used google search in years, no, users do not necessarily prefer searches containing results with a manual override versus the organic algorithm results.

Koby, the algorithm is made by Google. Any “override” is part of the algorithm.

You are acting like (1) there’s some “natural” algorithm baseline and (2) that some tweaks to the algo are bad and some are good.

That is nonsense. It’s all the same thing. A tweak to the algo is a tweak to the algo. There is no distinction there beyond whether you like the tweak or not. And if you don’t, you can use another search engine, as you note you already do.

So why should Ohio be able to force Google to tweak the algorithm in one direction. And if that is allowed, what’s to stop California from doing the same in the other direction?

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2 Google Benefits from Federal State Support of the Internet

Google benefits from money paid from the people of Ohio.

The people of Ohio through their representative can certainly ask for something in return.

Automobile emissions standards vary from state to state. It’s a lot harder for auto manufactures to deal with such variation than it is for Google to provide some state-specific tweaks.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: A Telecommunications Common Carrier is Hardly the Only True Common Carrier

An information service common carrier remains a common carrier even if it is not a telecommunications common carrier.

The FCC is an administrative agency, which has legislated authority to determine which common carriers it wishes to regulate. The FCC calls a common carrier it regulates an interstate telecommunications common carrier. A common carrier does not cease to be a common carrier because the FCC makes an administration decision not to regulate a common carrier.

Only a state court or Article III court can rule as a matter of law that an entity is not a common carrier.

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Anonymous Coward says:

You can't fix stupid

Judges are elected in Ohio, so there’s no effective screening. Consequently, any dunce can become a judge (dudge? junce?). Voters consistently demonstrate that they have no idea who they are voting for, or why, but this jackass is dangerous and will cost Ohio a bundle of money.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re:

Voters do know what they are voting for… for well over 90% of the voting population it just has to do with whether there is a R or a D next to the name. No further thought is given. Long gone are the days you could make an informed decision on the candidate’s platform…now it is either hard left or hard right… there is no middle.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re:

now it is either hard left or hard right… there is no middle.

If it’s so hard left, why isn’t Bernie president?

That would have been the closest thing to hard-left vs hard-right in Trump.

And on a side note, why is Medicare for All such a “hard-left” policy?

I mean if people really like to believe they are pro-life, then why not support universal healthcare? That’s one of most “pro-life” policies I can imagine.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:3

Quit making generalizations unless you want them to be made against you. Assuming everyone of a particular position is wrong and invites the same invites the same to be done to you. Qualify your statements or issue a complete retraction.
Any attempt to argue or deflect will simply prove my point (as they are avoidance tactics designed to let the speaker keep from admitting what he or she knows is true).

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:4

Any attempt to argue or deflect will simply prove my point

I look forward to the circus that ensues once you pro-life people have to pay for these unwanted children post-birth. Because for all the focus on the abortion itself, I haven’t see an iota of detail as to what happens next.

I can’t wait to see you figure that out on the fly. See how well prayer works when an infant needs something to eat.