Game Publishers: If Your DRM, Anti-Cheat Software Does Creepy Installs, Warn Your Customers First

from the creepware dept

Any cursory review of our stories involving DRM will leave a sane reader with only one impression: the spectrum of customer viewpoints on video game DRM ranges from total and complete disgust and hatred to tolerance of DRM as an annoyance. In other words, there is no positive side of this spectrum. There are no gamers that are pro-DRM, only those that put up with it. On the flip side, there are many folks who not only hate DRM in video games, but also many who are quite wary of what that DRM is and is doing on or to their machines. There are historical reasons for this, from DRM support falling off and bricking previously bought games to DRM practices that appear to install shady shit on gamers’ PCs.

In these modern times, it would be absurd to suggest that the general public has mostly graduated to a new level of technical proficiency… but I think we can also say that the average gamer is probably more aware of how these games operate and install on their machines than they have been in the past. Which is probably why, in 2021, it was a really bad idea for one game publisher to use anti-piracy measures that install what sure looks like unknown, shady software on customer machines.

Fans of the RPG Another Eden—out this month on PC—this week discovered that, alongside installing the game itself, copies of the game obtained on Steam were also installing something called ‘wfsdrv’ which seemingly had nothing to do with the game.

Initially believed to be some kind of driver, then suggested as something more sinister, fans scrambled to try to discover just what was nestling itself into their system32 folders, and could have been…literally anything.

Finding a game randomly installing something unexpected obviously throws up all kinds of red flags. Then, when you go looking for any information on this mysterious software and come up with nothing, it’s likely to send your concern into overdrive. People on Steam and social media went nuts trying to figure out what this software is and why it was being installed on their machines.

As you’ve probably already guessed, it turns out it’s a DRM/anti-cheat software. Another Eden developers eventually jumped into the Steam forums to try to calm everyone down.

We have been recently made aware about concerns users are having with the “wfsdrv” program that is installed along with the Steam version of Another Eden.

We take information privacy seriously at WFS and would like to alleviate any fears our users might have about the security of the recently released Steam version of Another Eden. The program in wfsdrv is an anti-cheat kernel driver, and is installed to protect the integrity of the Another Eden experience so that all players are able to operate in a fair play-environment.

This just isn’t good enough. We’ll leave aside for a moment that DRM and anti-cheat software is largely trash. Instead, it seems like a decent proposition that in 2021 you should give your customers a heads-up if you’re going to be installing stuff on their machines that doesn’t appear to be part of the game they bought. Something on the Steam page, or in the release notes. Maybe an FAQ that names the software by name so that anyone searching for information on it can see it.

Anything other than simply dropping it onto customer PCs without telling anyone and then trying to manage the fallout afterwards. Or, hey, maybe don’t use this software that probably doesn’t work anyway.

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Comments on “Game Publishers: If Your DRM, Anti-Cheat Software Does Creepy Installs, Warn Your Customers First”

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Puttin' on the Bitz says:

So, okay if hidden in main program?

Skip that it’s DRM. Techdirt hates all DRM, so that’s irrelevant for this piece.

Skip that it’s in System32. Purple herring. I’m pretty sure that directory is not necessary for the function or for it to be init’d at startup, that’s just where nearly everyone OPENLY puts low-level SYSTEM stuff, ’cause it’s the convention to put low-level SYSTEM stuff there.

Note directory name. Not chosen at random, but indicative of the kind of functions files there likely to have.

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Puttin' on the Bitz says:

Re: So, okay if hidden in main program?

If the same function were in main program and you hadn’t somehow discovered the program doing whatever this driver does, you wouldn’t worry!

You don’t worry at all about the GIGABYTES of potential spyware and backdoors that Microsoft provides! Nor about using pirated software with god knows what keyloggers and such in it! Nor about the spyware / adware in nearly all "free" programs now, especially GOOGLE’S!

BUT because a game company put this visible and separate in System32, gamers go berserk!

And then YOU write it up, oblivious to how silly this makes gamers look! Sheesh!

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re:

Have you ever heard of “compromise”? Plenty of Windows users put up with the privacy-intruding functions of Windows (if they don’t disable them ASAP) because using Windows is easier than installing, tweaking, and learning a whole new operating system. Pirates put up with the potential for a Trojan horse inside the software they pirate because installing potential malware is, to the pirates, worth that risk if they can at least use the pirated software without DRM. And people put up with ads in applications (on- or offline), streaming services, television, etc. because…well, we always have.

As far as the whole “gamers went crazy because it was visible”: That wasn’t the point at all, but of course you’d fuck up the interpretation. Gamers got angry not because the DRM was there, but because the DRM wasn’t labelled as DRM and the publisher didn’t inform customers that the DRM program was DRM. I mean, people took possible malware seriously, and you’re angry that they did the thing you say they don’t do. What the actual fuck.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re: Re:

Have you ever heard of “compromise”?

Have you ever heard of "excuse"?

Options exist. No, they don’t "Just Work" (TM). Don’t like it? Sucks to be you.

Maybe you should try to get off of your ass and work for change for once in your life. Rather than bitch about the imperfections that you expect everyone else to fix for you.

And people put up with ads in applications (on- or offline), streaming services, television, etc. because…well, we always have.

Nope. Wrong again. The ads came after broadcast TV. Supposedly to justify the operating costs. Back then cable even advertised itself as a way to avoid TV advertising by pay for the operating costs directly. We all know that promise wasn’t kept. The same promise was made for Satellite and even some streaming services. Guess what? Yep, broken promises again. People don’t put up with TV advertising, they have no choice in the matter at all.

Gamers got angry not because the DRM was there, but because the DRM wasn’t labelled as DRM and the publisher didn’t inform customers that the DRM program was DRM.

It looks, smells and quacks like a duck, but you still need a zoologist to tell you it’s a duck? Sounds like more BS to me. Gamers got mad because it has DRM. Because it’s malware on their devices. Being told it’s malware isn’t going to somehow justify a ransomware infection. Only Bullshitter like you would think that because they were told, the company should be free and clear of consequences. "It’s just good business" isn’t an excuse. It’s malware, and it shouldn’t be required to play a fucking game.

Sidepoint: The DRM is even worse than the TV advertising bit. Gamers have no choice at all. If a rightsholder wants to only release a DRM’d version of the game, the only other option is the illegal one because there are no other people who can legally make copies of the game without DRM. That’s true of all media not just videogames. Which means any and all claims of "acceptance" of DRM by the public is just bullshit. The public has no legal alternative and never gets the chance to "vote with their wallet."

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2

Have you ever heard of "excuse"?

I have. So what?

Everyone makes compromises in their daily lives. For a lot of people, one such compromise is using software/interactive web services that are riddled with advertising because they consider that software/service more useable and useful than other alternatives — even with the ads intact. As it regards DRM, some people see that as a “necessary evil” vis-á-vis legally buying (and enjoying) PC games.

People don’t put up with TV advertising, they have no choice in the matter at all.

Given the options in streaming today, they actually do have a choice.

Only [a b]ullshitter like you would think that because they were told, the company should be free and clear of consequences.

No, I don’t. I believe DRM is malware of a kind — because DRM is closed-source black box code that acts as the digital equivalent of an ankle bracelet tracking device for paying customers but does nothing to prevent copyright infringement carried out by non-paying customers. It serves no real purpose other than to assuage paranoia. We’d all be better off without the existence of DRM.

But a publisher informing people that a given game will have DRM attached to it at least offers people the opportunity to decide whether the addition of DRM is a dealbreaker. The game in question in the article above didn’t even do that — and that’s the big reason people are mad. Some people can put up with DRM (God bless ’em), but not being told “we included DRM with your game” is bullshit no matter how you feel about the subject.

And regardless of whether a company is honest or dishonest about the inclusion of DRM, that company deserves to have its ass handed back to itself for using DRM in the first place. Any dishonesty about using DRM only makes them look worse.

You got anything else, sunshine?

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Puttin' on the Bitz says:

"cursory" means skimming, and yeah, your views always HATE DRM.

Any cursory review of our stories involving DRM will leave a sane reader with only one impression: the spectrum of customer viewpoints on video game DRM ranges from total and complete disgust and hatred to tolerance of DRM as an annoyance.

What exactly do you think skimming Techdirt’s one-sided view proves? You clowns can’t even admit that there IS any other view of DRM!

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: "cursory" means skimming, and yeah, your views always HATE D

People who use pirated software don’t have to worry about DRM, because it’s been cracked.

Even the best DRM doesn’t effectively stop pirating, because it’s cracked within days (sometimes hours) of release.

Therefore, the only people who would be concerned with DRM are legitimate users.

Even the best DRM doesn’t add to a legitimate user’s experience, because ideally it would be transparent; ensuring the game copy is legal without adversely impacting system performance. However, in most cases, the DRM isn’t that good, and impacts performance negatively in some way. This results in a paying customer having a worse experience with the game than a pirate.

So, I ask you: From a legitimate, paying customer point of view, what is the positive view on DRM?

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David says:

Re: Re: "cursory" means skimming, and yeah, your views always HA

So, I ask you: From a legitimate, paying customer point of view, what is the positive view on DRM?

Own the freeloaders. I mean, "own the libs" is a major vote driver in the U.S. while actual politicians standing for liberal positions are an endangered species.

The freeloaders are not pained as much as the customers? Why, the answer is more DRM.

Just like the answer to mass shooting incidents is that we just need more guns in our schools.

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Scary Devil Monastery (profile) says:

Re: "cursory" means skimming, and yeah, your views always HATE D

"You clowns can’t even admit that there IS any other view of DRM!"

Because much as with plague and famine, there is none.

When the thing you defend so avidly is a net negative for everyone involved and to boot renders the product it’s infected with worse than the cracked variant then what you have is nothing but yet another heavy incentive not to use the legal product.

Us wanting nothing to do with DRM doesn’t render us clowns. It reveals you as insane for assuming anyone would actually want it.

Scary Devil Monastery (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2 [feeding trolls]

"Maybe it would be better to give them a beatdown by flagging (so the messages are quickly hidden) and then ignoring."

We could do that, sure. But after ten years or more of that particular troll; out_of_the_blue, a.k.a. Jhon smith, brainy smurf, bobmail…or as I personally refer to him, Baghdad Bob – we know he isn’t just a sad hopeless loser trolling for amusement. Going on forums and spouting pseudo-random bullshit seems to be all he’s got in life.

Techdirt, being one of the few forums left which doesn’t require some form of account login and still has a group of sane commenters, seems to be one of the last refugees left where poor old Baghdad Bob can still vent his confused wrath over liberals, black people, lawbreakers and pirates.

We generally don’t feel it too onerous to satisfy his deep-seated masochistic urges with a quick hammer blow to his latest attempt at pretzel logic built out of la-la land assumption.

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tp (profile) says:

Browser-based games are solving the issue

Just use browser based games:
1) it doesnt need to be installed when it runs on browser sandbox,
just pointing your browser to valid url is enough
2) It cannot install anything to your valuable computer, given that
browser’s security measures are preventing file system access
3) you can easily get rid of it, once you get bored, since BACK key
has been correctly implemented
4) it cannot slurp more than 2GB of memory from your computer, so
it allows running other programs at the same time
5) The DRM is built-in to your browser, and copying the game to your friend is impossible. Instead you can just pass along URL to the game to your friend

But there’s some downsides:
1) browser is slower than native
2) memory limitations means that the game size is smaller
3) browser-based game development is more burdensome from the developer standpoint when suitable sdk’s are not existing
4) many engines like unreal are dropping html5 support because they cannot stand the browser’s sandbox limitations

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Scary Devil Monastery (profile) says:

Re: Browser-based games are solving the issue

"Just use browser based games…"

And you claim…to actually be a programmer? Wow.

There’s so much to unpack here, but let’s begin with the part where if that was even an option then browser-based games would have cornered the market. They haven’t, because sandboxing is, almost by definition, a very hefty drag on performance.

Secondly, running a game on the browser means you pipe all graphic files through your internet connection rather than from your millions-of-times faster SSD.

You are basically discussing the "thin client" mode of remote gaming which never did catch on with the maintream because – surprise, surprise – it doesn’t really work in todays online infrastructure.

This alone – "it cannot slurp more than 2GB of memory from your computer, so it allows running other programs at the same time"

Most games today demand whatever your PC has. No game title in recent years will even operate with less than 4 GB – and more likely todays demand is 8GB and pushing it.

So your suggestions that we should use the browser to play all the games from ten or twenty years ago might be intriguing if it weren’t for the fact that much like your vaunted meshpage it’s something that no one wants.

Scary Devil Monastery (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re: Browser-based games are solving the issue

"and here I was thinking the OP was satire."

I wish. no, "tp" has been demonstrating his stunning capacity for posting – in all seriousness – manifest impossibility and wishful thinking for years. All the while claiming actual expertise in the topic he just proved knowledge befitting that of a concussed lemming.

The jury is still out whether he does this sheerly for the trolling – since he usually keeps it up until the thread iterations have been reduced to such a narrow width that answers and rebuttals become unreadable vertical single lines – or whether he actually believes ANY of the garbage he keeps peddling.

Unfortunately there’s really no way to tell. No matter how infantile his suggestions it usually fits with something copyright maximalists have stated in full earnest at one point or other.

PaulT (profile) says:

Re: Re: Browser-based games are solving the issue

"And you claim…to actually be a programmer? Wow."

I don’t doubt that he’s a programmer and I actually believe his claims to have have had career success with embedded telecoms systems.

The problem he has is that outside of that field he’s utterly clueless about how things actually work.

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Scary Devil Monastery (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re: Browser-based games are solving the issue

"I don’t doubt that he’s a programmer and I actually believe his claims to have have had career success with embedded telecoms systems."

His entire statement regarding browser-based games prove the contrary. 2GB isn’t a valid memory footprint for just about any application, and hasn’t been for about ten years. The switch from x32 to x64 saw to that.

ryuugami says:

Re: Re: Re:3 Browser-based games are solving the issue

Again, I believe his claims about working with embedded systems but he’s clueless about everything else.

A short browse of The Daily WTF will show that "being a programmer", even a professional one, is not particularly correlated to having any computer-related skill whatsoever — programming itself very much included.

It’s primarily a consequence of the lack of regulation and/or certification in the field. Unlike, say, a lawyer or a plumber, you don’t need an exam nor a license to call yourself a programmer.

(With the managerial layer in most companies being clueless about software development, if you’re a good enough bullshitter you can usually cover any lack of actual programming skill and work as a "programmer" even if you’re barely able to write a Hello World. See, for example, TDWTF’s classic article "The Brillant Paula Bean".)

PaulT (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4 Browser-based games are solving the issu

The major issue with "programmer" is that it’s like saying "scientist". Just because you’re good in one field, that doesn’t mean you’re good in another. An astrophysicist isn’t necessarily going to be good with the finer points of molecular biology. A low level embedded coder won’t necessarily have the first clue about proper web development.

Add Dunning-Kruger in there to ensure that the person never understands how bad they are in the other field, and this is what we get.

Annonymouse says:

Re: Re: Re:5 Browser-based games are solving the

^^^^^This.

An acquaintance of mine ran a small, and now much larger, insurance consultantancy and IT support company.

At the time they needed competent bench techs and simultaneously the larger bay street corps were starting to outsource, so there was a glut of network managers looking for employment. Not one could pass the basic bench test and a few couldn’t even turn on the computer.

They ended up hiring a couple of college students part time who knew the basics and were willing to learn, even if their major wasn’t involved with IT.

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tp (profile) says:

Re: Re: Browser-based games are solving the issue

it’s something that no one wants.

One of the most popular games on the planet is the dummy card games that ship with windows. That doesn’t require top-end computer hardware and has no performance problems whatsoever. Only thing it needs for its popularity is that it is shipped alongside with MS windows.

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PaulT (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re: Browser-based games are solving the issue

"One of the most popular games on the planet is the dummy card games that ship with windows"

Yes, and there’s thousands of online versions of those games available already. We’re not talking about those games.

What’s your solution to the games that we are talking about?

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:3 Re:

that’s under nda, so I can’t talk about it.

That presumes anyone wants your solution, Tero, and considering that you’re still here whining about how nobody wants to use your software, I’m calling your bluff on that alleged "industry NDA".

If you’d actually got to work producing anything stronger than 2001-era Runescape graphics, you wouldn’t be here whining and bitching that Oracle lost their case against Google.

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tp (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4 Re:

I’m calling your bluff on that alleged "industry NDA".

Well, one of the games publishers want everyone to sign nda’s before they are willing to talk to you or publish anything…

I made some (poor) games which need a publisher… Sadly that publisher didn’t get the games since their terms and conditions were too much bullshit.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5

I made some (poor) games which need a publisher

Toby Fox self-published Undertale. Derek Yu self-published Spelunky. Scott Cawthon self-published Five Nights at Freddy’s. Daisuke “Pixel” Amaya self-published Cave Story.

You don’t need a publisher. You need some fucking balls.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:5 Re:

People in the industry wanting NDAs on everything is not the issue I have here – it’s more of the fact that this "publisher" has never existed in the five years you’ve been here singing the praises of Prenda Law and punishing people for drawing subway maps.

Why would you even need a publisher, anyway? Isn’t your technology capable of "teleporting animations" to the Internet on its own? And why would you even need to work with a publisher given your distaste when it comes to working with people or collaboration?

That’s why nobody believes your publisher exists, and the NDA sounds suspiciously like a convenient excuse to justify the non-existent value of your Unreal Engine knock-off.

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tp (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:6 Re:

Why would you even need a publisher, anyway?

I only managed to implement animation teleportation after meeting these folks.

Isn’t your technology capable of "teleporting animations" to the Internet on its own?

You somehow fail to see the long development process… Did you think teleportation was implemented in 2 minutes after reading some dummies books?

Basically my first game using this technology was good enough shape that it needed a publisher that would deal with beginners. That was like 7 years ago etc.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7

I only managed to implement animation teleportation after meeting these folks.

So what? Also quit calling it “teleportation”, you dipshit. It’s “uploading”.

Basically my first game using this technology was good enough shape that it needed a publisher that would deal with beginners.

And despite the multitude of people who’ve self-published games — some of which have gone on to become major success stories — you didn’t think to do that yourself? Jesus, no wonder you’re such a failure.

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tp (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:8 Re:

So what? Also quit calling it “teleportation”, you dipshit. It’s “uploading”.

Nope, I don’t even support uploading.

multitude of people who’ve self-published games

This must be biggest understatement of the day. Multitude is clearly wrong word to describe the horror. Ludumdare has like 6500 games created every year, all of them screaming to get a publisher to look at their 3 day game development output. At least 6000 of them are complete failures in the marketplace.

Basically it’s just fun to create those games, but noone is really interested in the output after the game is ready.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:9 Re:

Ah, the usual Tero-style apples and chainsaws comparison. "Game jam" products are barely Newgrounds-level stuff. And even then, the fact that many people chosoe not to self-publish, or the fact that people self-publish and don’t reach blockbuster levels of fame with their product, doesn’t suddenly make the self-publishing scene disappear.

And here’s the funny thing about those "6000 failures" – none of them come to tech discussion sites to whine and moan about why their countries’ governments don’t fund their private Minecraft mansion.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:9

it’s just fun to create those games, but noone is really interested in the output after the game is ready

So what?

Publish your games yourself and let them sink or swim. Lots of people do it every day. itch.io is full of self-published software — not just games — and some of them are rather well-known. The hit murder mystery game Among Us, the crazy-hard platformer game Celeste, the nightmare platformer that is I Wanna Be The Guy, the…unusual visual novel game Doki Doki Literature Club!, the perspective-bending platformer Fez, and well-regarded tools such as Aseprite, Asset Forge, GB Studio, and the development software for the Pico-8 fantasy console are on itch.io right now.

Yes, Sturgeon’s Law dictates that most of what is on itch.io is complete crap (or close enough to it). But that’s the same on any other digital storefront that isn’t heavily curated. If you use that as an excuse to not even try self-publishing — “I’ll get drowned out by all the crap!” — no publisher worth a good god’s damn would ever take a chance on you. So nut up or shut up.

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PaulT (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:9 Re:

"Nope, I don’t even support uploading."

You did it to publish your site…

But again, thanks for confirming your many failures again. You can’t even support half of the basic function of file transfers yet you think you have world beating software? please…

"noone is really interested in the output after the game is ready"

Yes, nobody is in the market for terrible games or terrible 3D design projects.

Did you ever consider making /good* products?

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:10 Re:

Did you ever consider making /good* products?

Telling someone "did you ever consider making good products" is like someone telling you "did you ever consider making useful comments?"

This isn’t the place for a software product review, and your comment wouldn’t had done anything to help him make a better product anyway.

Maybe you don’t entertain fools gladly, but neither your comment nor his really bear on the topic of the blog post.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:11 Re:

And you know what else is annoying? Clicking your tongue and waggling your finger at people responding to obnoxious trolls with a "you’re just as bad as they are" trope argument. It’s just as unconstructive and thrills the trolls because they think you’re on their side while acting like a moralist dick to everyone else.

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PaulT (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:11 Re:

You might not realise this, but tp has been spouting his rambling nonsense for years, and his reaction to constructive criticism is to attack end users and pretend that his software is superior to all his competitors despite all the evidence to the contrary. There’s no point trying any more, so mockery it is.

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tp (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:10 Re:

> "Nope, I don’t even support uploading."
You did it to publish your site…

you again miss the actual history of the project. I mean, I implemented uploading several years ago, and had nice user interface that worked exactly like youtube’s upload feature. Sadly users think that youtube’s system is already outdated, and thus they’re not going to start using a web site that provides that system, so I need to move to something else. Also legal eagles have found the youtube’s system and are now creating laws that prevent the upload feature. Things like "copyright filters" or "rejecting copyright infringing works" are now necessary if you provide upload feature.

Thus I didn’t stay with the upload feature, but it needs to be something slightly different. The environment where the new tech is being developed is already very different from the world where youtube was created, so the same tech solution is not working.

And "uploads" have bad reputation in copyright circles, given that megaupload kinda ruined it with their pirate site. Obviously my features need to fullfill requirements coming from different directions, including RIAA/MPAA style requirements…

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PaulT (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:11 Re:

"you again miss the actual history of the project"

I know what words mean in the real world. But, congrats on convincing yourself that you can operate a website without uploading something, and that your zero users are demanding something different to reality.

"And "uploads" have bad reputation in copyright circles"

So do downloads. And streaming. And everything else you can possibly do with a website.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:11 Re:

Things like "copyright filters" or "rejecting copyright infringing works" are now necessary if you provide upload feature.

Yeah, those exact same features which you keep praising as being totally feasible, completely immune to false positives and not a bitch to implement. Turns out it really put a huge obstacle for your software, didn’t it? I don’t think I’ve seen a bigger example of "shooting yourself in the foot".

And "uploads" have bad reputation in copyright circles, given that megaupload kinda ruined it with their pirate site.

What copyright circles believe are, frankly, total trash. Copyright circles believe that VPNs are bad. Copyright circles believe that CCleaner (or similar deletion software) is bad. Both technologies are used by legitimate users and organizations worldwide to the point where working with the limitations that copyright enforcement ideally wants is a fool’s errand.

Hell, working from home I end up having to upload plenty of documents for my colleagues and superiors to review. The company uses a corporate VPN to guarantee only authorized users can access sensitive files. Copyright enforcement has no business outlawing those technologies and demanding money from where I work.

Obviously my features need to fullfill requirements coming from different directions, including RIAA/MPAA style requirements…

And calling your method "teleporting animations" won’t fulfill those requirements. Based on what the RIAA/MPAA believe, your system has to prevent copyright infringement the moment something is transmitted from a user to someone else’s screen or device. If your tech doesn’t include filters to prevent someone from making a Mickey Mouse lookalike in meshpage so someone else can see it, your tech is illegal by RIAA/MPAA definition. Although goodness knows the amount of hardware/browser code that sort of filter will require, so good luck making it streamlined, reliable and fast, too.

Then again you’re the kind of person who would kiss the RIAA’s feet if they devoured a baby in front of your eyes…

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tp (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:12 Re:

If your tech doesn’t include filters to prevent someone from making a Mickey Mouse lookalike in meshpage so someone else can see it

creating mickey mouse lookalike animation is one of the primary purposes of the meshpage -site. How else are you going to pay back all the fun you had with mickey mouse animations when you were 4 years old. Obviously need to be able to create that good animation system with slightly more modern technology..

When they in disney headquarters managed to distribute their animations all over the world, including finland, as early as 1980s, we obviously need to do something similar when our tech solutions allow it… Otherwise today’s children get their fun from the internet… and that’s not going to end well…

PaulT (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:13 Re:

"creating mickey mouse lookalike animation is one of the primary purposes of the meshpage -site"

I love your brand of insanity since it doesn’t even make logical sense.

So… you’re saying that you will bend over backwards to prevent people reusing copyrighted media, but also that the purpose of your software is to recreate copyrighted media?

How you think that’s even possible, even if it weren’t so easy to replicate the Mickey logo with three circles, is baffling.

"Otherwise today’s children get their fun from the internet… and that’s not going to end well…"

So, your solution to children getting bad influences from the internet is to get them to use… your product that only exists on the internet?

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:14 Re:

I swear it’s something in the water in Finland, because I don’t see the language barrier being that much of a detriment to whatever the hell he’s trying to communicate. Either that or he’s a member of the Church of Malibu Media, which he’d already admitted to…

PaulT (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:15 Re:

The more I think about it, the more my Neil Breen analogy seems to fit.

For those unaware, Breen is a Las Vegas architect who has decided to use some of his income to produce a series of films with himself doing virtually everything that doesn’t require an actual collaborator (such as having more than one "actor" on screen). They’re laughably incompetent by almost any measure, but act as ego trips for him to spout ridiculous conspiracy theories and usually star himself as the saviour of humanity. He gets very offended when people point out the flaws in his movies and seems very upset that they have an audience due to how bad they are rather than any quality he believes they have. To the point where he refuses to offer them for sale from anywhere except for a self-created DVD at overinflated prices and often lashes out at people who spend the time to create YouTube videos detailing their many flaws.

I think tp might be the Finnish counterpart to Breen, apart from the fact that it’s nowhere near as entertaining for most people to break down bad software as it is to break down bad movies. Hence, a much lower audience.

Scary Devil Monastery (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:15 Re:

"I swear it’s something in the water in Finland, because I don’t see the language barrier being that much of a detriment to whatever the hell he’s trying to communicate."

Probably not the water, at least. Linus Torvald’s a finn – more properly a finlandian swede – and finland’s not known for being a nation of morons.

I do suspect that at some point Finland experimented with some liberal experimental psychiatry treatment allowing malicious and unpleasant sociopaths deemed not an acute hazard to society to work on "constructive" projects – the result of which became the finnish version of the copyright cult which contains some of the more venomous and toxic proponents of copyright maximalism this side of GEMA.

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tp (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:14 Re:

you will bend over backwards to prevent people reusing copyrighted media, but also that the purpose of your software is to recreate copyrighted media?

No, the purpose isn’t cloning someone elses work.

We just need some alternative to it, since the original mickey mouse animations have significant technical problems, i.e, their 1970s tech couldn’t do frame rates implemented correctly and children watching those animations will lose their track of time when a ball falls to the ground alot slower in animated cartoons than it does in real world. This is what we need to fix. Opengl and computer tech has similar problems with matrix style bullet time, i.e. time is not flowing correctly in the computer games and it is causing significant problems in the real world.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:15 Re:

Opengl and computer tech has similar problems with matrix style bullet time, i.e. time is not flowing correctly in the computer games and it is causing significant problems in the real world.

You are confusing artistic intent with real world modelling. Also, what problems are you talking about, as most people are capable of distinguishing fiction and reality.

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TFG says:

Re: Re: Re:15 Re:

children watching those animations will lose their track of time when a ball falls to the ground alot slower in animated cartoons than it does in real world.

Which is exactly why, in the wake of the release of the Wile E. Coyote show, you had a rash of children leaping off of tall buildings and canyons believing that so long as they didn’t look down, they wouldn’t fall.

Not to mention all the kids who sawed off branches expecting the tree to fall instead of the branch after seeing that occur with Bugs Bunny and Elmer Fudd. Truly, wacky cartoon hijinks were responsible for a rash of children’s deaths, which is exactly why Looney Tunes never entered the cultural lexicon in a huge fashion and all children’s programming is required to be exceedingly faithful to real world physics.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:15 Re:

You really don’t seem to understand the purpose of animation, games and other media. The entire point is to build on, exaggerate, and juxtapose against how real world physics work. This "fix" you’re claiming is for something that doesn’t exist. You’re trying to make something entertaining, not make a real-world simulator. Even real-world simulators like Second Life have to have some features that go beyond just replicating actual life.

On the other hand, if this is your definition of a game I think we can all safely say that your supposed "publisher" doesn’t exist beyond the confines of your limited imagination.

PaulT (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:15 Re:

"No, the purpose isn’t cloning someone elses work."

That strange, because someone using your login said "creating mickey mouse lookalike animation is one of the primary purposes of the meshpage -site"

You might want to change your password, since someone seems to be spouting nonsense that even you don’t agree with.

"the original mickey mouse animations have significant technical problems, i.e, their 1970s tech couldn’t do frame rates implemented correctly"

I’m not sure what’s funnier – the fact that you think Mickey Mouse if from the 70s, or the idea that nobody except you has tried to fix the "problems" you perceive to be there, when there’s an entire industry who’s done it.

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tp (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:16 Re:

or the idea that nobody except you has tried to fix the "problems" you perceive to be there, when there’s an entire industry who’s done it.

There is big issue if someone else (or some unknown industry) does it, i.e. basically if they manage to do it, I’m not owning the copyright of those works. To get this problem solved, I just create the material myself, instead of letting someone else to do all the fun activities.

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tp (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:18 Re:

How does your software prevent that kind of copyright infringement again?

1) I don’t use existing standard file formats => users will need to create the material from scratch instead => this prevents copyright infringements very efficiently
2) there will be manual checks, if the material looks too much like some existing works, licenses will be checked
3) there’s no video file support => i.e. avoid known piracy material locations in the world => basically video files are too burdensome to create yourself, so users have no other alternative than pirate them => thus their support in the software must be removed completely
4) keep it walled garden, i.e. control the inputs and outputs of the software
5) control file format conversions
6) domain restrictions

tons of different ways how you can improve the software’s copyright status.

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tp (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:20 Re:

I predict that you software will not be used because it is crippled, and its output isolated to its own island.

output of my software will be directly visible to end users via web pages. It has no other output. it generates standard web pages usable in any web browser.

the crippled part.. you need to think it differently… its not crippled, but instead its safe to use by end users because they don’t constantly need to be afraid that the software publishes the material behind user’s back.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:21

It has no other output.

Which is why your program is irrelevant. Nobody wants to use a 3D graphics program that won’t actually let them save output to any file format — still-image, video, or shareable modelling data.

But of course, you don’t want people to share. You think sharing is dumb and stupid and for babies. You think coöperation and the public domain and everything else that facilitates greater creativity in a society is bullshit and should be axed immediately for the greater good of copyright-owning corporations such as Disney that would sooner kill you and step over your corpse than thank you for your bootlicking, ass-kissing, financially worthless “service” to them.

And that’s what makes you fucking insane.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:21 Re:

It has no other output. it generates standard web pages usable in any web browser.

Have you never heard of co-operation, that’s when people work together a common goal? They need to be able to share files in a format that non-linear editors use. Using such tool is not beyond the ability of pre-teens.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:19

I don’t use existing standard file formats

Which means your program is inherently busted from the get-go, since it apparently can’t even output into widely used file formats that someone might use to, say, attach an example of their work to an email or upload the output file to a file storage service. Whatever you think of “1970s tech” like still images and video files, they’re still the go-to for sharing works.

users will need to create the material from scratch instead => this prevents copyright infringements very efficiently

So what?

there will be manual checks, if the material looks too much like some existing works, licenses will be checked

And how do you plan to build a database of the entirety of all copyrighted works in existence right now that you can both afford to own/operate and run with the efficiency necessary to double-check a user’s work against all those other works in mere seconds?

there’s no video file support => i.e. avoid known piracy material locations in the world

You seem to think that the existence of file formats is somehow an act of copyright infringement. Holy fuck, are you insane.

video files are too burdensome to create yourself, so users have no other alternative than pirate them

Just because you can’t use Handbrake doesn’t mean other people can’t. You are not the rest of the world.

their support in the software must be removed completely

Again, this kills your software. Who in their right goddamned mind would use it if they couldn’t export the output to a file format that everyone else uses, still-image or video?

keep it walled garden, i.e. control the inputs and outputs of the software

Yeah, because when people use programs like Blender, what they really fucking want is for the Blender devs to tell them what the fuck they can and can’t do with the program~.

control file format conversions

I thought you said your program “teleported” output directly to web pages. Why would you need to worry about file format conversions if your program doesn’t even use file formats for export purposes?

domain restrictions

“I don’t like that you used .co instead of .com so I’m disabling your shit.”

Holy shit, you’re too far gone for Jesus to save you. I’m 99% certain only Black Jesus could help you stop being insane.

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tp (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:20 Re:

> control file format conversions

Why would you need to worry about file format conversions if your program doesn’t even use file formats for export purposes?

well, the internal structure of the code is using functional programming. If you remember anything from programming 101 classes, functional programming means that the software is divided to functions which each does certain kind of data structure conversion process. Thus file formats can be converted to another format with my program, when everything looks like a conversion module.

For example a function f: A->B converts from format A to format B.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:21

file formats can be converted to another format with my program

But wouldn’t that run the risk of people importing or converting [gasp] copyrighted materials using your program? And here I thought you were dedicated to annihilating any possible route of copyright infringement ever in the name of making a better society. How could you overlook something that simple in your mad quest to eradicate both the public domain and the ability to easily share works with others?

Mickey Mouse is very disappointed in you, tp. You’ll be hearing from his lawyers soon, I’m sure.

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tp (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:22 Re:

But wouldn’t that run the risk of people importing or converting [gasp] copyrighted materials using your program?

Only if I allow importing copyrighted works to the program.

The process works like this:
1) user publishes the material in a web page, obtaining URL to it
2) now that copyright check have been done, the url can be copy-pasted
to my program
3) My program can rely that the user has rights to publish the material
4) and I just need to check that I don’t download the assets from anywhere else than user’s own hosting space.
5) and the domain check is designed to do exactly that.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:23

Again: How do you plan to afford, in both financial and chronological terms, checking anything anyone inputs into your program against the entirety of copyrighted cultural works in the whole world?

I mean, even assuming you only ever had to go by one set of copyright rules (you won’t), you’d still have to check one single collection of data, no matter how small, against millions — possibly even billions — of paintings, illustrations, video frame captures, and other such works from around the entire world. Can you promise that you, and you alone, can afford to put together a system that can both store the data required for such checks and sift through it in a significantly small amount of time? Can you promise that your system will be foolproof and perfect, such that no copyrighted work — in part or in whole — can be imported into your program? Can you possibly promise that your system will never produce a single false positive?

If your answer to all those questions is “no”, you’ve failed at your quest before it even begins.

Oh, and one more thing: The MPAA, the RIAA, and their international equivalents have never been able to stop copyright infringement in any way, so what makes you think you can do — absolutely and without fail — what multi-billion-dollar multinational media conglomerates can’t?

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tp (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:24 Re:

checking anything anyone inputs into your program against the entirety of copyrighted cultural works in the whole world?

I don’t need to do anything like that.

It’s enough that I don’t allow blatant copyright infringement. This means for example that my program asks for user homepage address. The user has legal requirement to give his correct homepage address to my program. Then I just assume that his hosting space is somewhere near that homepage address. i.e. only allow downloading from the same domain. User types both of these URLS himself, but there’s additional legal requirement that when I ask for homepage address, that they actually give their real homepage to my program.

Then the check just rejects URLS that point to piratebay or newyorktimes.com and only allow the domain where user has indicated that his homepage is at.

Of course we’ll get jokers that keep changing their homepage address to something bad, but they we can just assume that his homepage is at dropbox or piratebay…. The legal requirement to give correct homepage still exists.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:25

Most of your comment is a bunch of blabbering bullshit that makes no sense whatsoever. But there is one point I can address.

I don’t allow blatant copyright infringement

How can you know, with the absolute unyielding certainty of God Herself, whether a given work infringes upon an existing copyrighted work if you don’t have a way to check whether that’s true? How can you possibly know for sure whether a given image, video, or text block infringes upon a copyrighted work from anywhere in the world only and specifically by looking at the imported work and nothing else?

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tp (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:26 Re:

How can you possibly know for sure whether a given image, video, or text block infringes upon a copyrighted work from anywhere in the world only and specifically by looking at the imported work and nothing else?

Well, copyright applies to all works on the planet. So initial thing is to reject all works on the planet. The domain check rejecting the whole world is doing this.

Then next step is to allow those works where you can be pretty sure that they do not contain copyrighted material. This operation shouldn’t allow the whole world, but to keep it as minimal as possible while still keeping your original program working as expected. My domain check allowing user’s hosting space is doing this part.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:27 Re:

So your genius plan to prevent copyright infringement is to prevent works from being created in the first place. Well, friendo, I’m starting to see why nobody is using your bloatware to do anything. I’ll also note that at no point have you actually explained how your copyright filters work to ensure nobody does something as simple as put three circles together to form the Mickey Mouse logo.

Although if at the end of the day your core business strategy is to ban people from producing videos, why are you so angry that Pixar can create their own animation tools and outputs, if you’re not even going to compete in the same industry?

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tp (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:28 Re:

I’ll also note that at no point have you actually explained how your copyright filters work to ensure nobody does something as simple as put three circles together to form the Mickey Mouse logo.

given that I still have 0 users for my software, I never encoutered this failure in the real world, so my copyright filters are not handling this case. But copyright checking is always on-going process, if the allowed features are misused, the services will be removed from use. So if someone uses circles to create copyright infringement, maybe I need to remove circles until I figure out how to make the copyright filters work properly in that case. But it’s a whack-a-mole kind of situation, when users misuse the features, the features will just disappear to the void. Given that i still have no users, it hasnt been a big issue.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:29 Re:

if the allowed features are misused, the services will be removed from use

In which case I can confidently tell you that your ability to create cubes with fuzzy textures already infringes on the copyright someone else had when they did the same thing in Maya or 3dsmax.

By virtue of your own tutorial videos, you’ve admitted to copyright infringement. And by your own rules, you have to kill off the Meshpage project.

I mean, thanks for constantly doing my job for me and shooting your own arguments until they’re six feet under. But once again, with feeling: this is not giving the government any reason to reward you for the work you’ve done. Nothing you’ve done for Meshpage even remotely requires anyone, never mind the government, to give you the time of day or monetary compensation. All because you think adhering to the mystical requires of the RIAA means you have to be funded under some bizarre interpretation of copyright law.

tp (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:30 Re:

But once again, with feeling: this is not giving the government any reason to reward you for the work you’ve done.

Good for you, but I already got my reward. Mansion is on the pipeline. My demands were/are being met. So guess the govt and management thinks that my work has some value after all, even if internet trolls are not seeing it.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:27

initial thing is to reject all works on the planet

Then your quest fails. Why? Because your program will reject even creating a copyrighted work by default, since — as you yourself said — “copyright applies to all works on the planet”. How can your program create a work that will be copyrighted if, by default, it won’t even allow a work to be made because it rejects any copyrighted work?

allow those works where you can be pretty sure that they do not contain copyrighted material

You can’t be “pretty sure” or else you’ll open yourself up to infringement liability. You have to know, with absolute certainty, whether a given work created in your program infringes or else you’re fucked if one such work did infringe and you were “pretty sure” it didn’t. After all, you seem to be putting your neck out pretty fucking far by all but saying you can guarantee that your program can’t be used to infringe copyright. Without the use of comparative databases, can you be as certain in your knowledge as an omniscient all-knowing supernatural deity that a given work created in your program doesn’t violate any copyrights anywhere in the world?

This operation shouldn’t allow the whole world

It has to. If you want to avoid infringing upon any copyright, you have to check against all copyrights everywhere.

My domain check allowing user’s hosting space is doing this part.

Nobody is going to use a program that requires them to jump through the hoops of buying both web hosting and a custom domain name for the sake of displaying the output — not when they can use a program that outputs to JPEG or MP4 and share the resulting file on Imgur or YouTube without needing to worry over whether the program devs have a gigantic grudge against both the public domain and the rest of humanity as a species.

tp (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:28 Re:

it won’t even allow a work to be made because it rejects any copyrighted work?

you can always create it from scratch. There is no copyright applying to alphabet or letters, so those are free to use for creating copyrighted works without need to use someone elses copyrighted work as a base. So creating it from scratch solves the whole problem.

If you are tight on time, then part of your non-important parts can be created by other people. For example I’m using opensource code for audio, since I have no audio experience whatsoever and I’m not going to learn how to play piano just to create some 3d work. So licensing someone elses work will work in this situation. But it’s generally worse solution than creating the product from scratch, and you might not be able to claim money rewards for such usage, since the money needs to be passed to the original authors.

Those are the only alternatives for how to create copyrighted works. No other alternatives exist. Everything else is illegal by the copyright laws.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:29

creating it from scratch solves the whole problem

Except it doesn’t. Someone working from scratch could still be able to create a work that infringes upon the work of another artist. Your program can’t know, prior to the creation of any work within it and without comparative databases, whether a work created within said program infringes upon a copyright anywhere in the world. The only surefire, guaranteed, 100% foolproof way to prevent your program from being used for infringement, even accidentally, is to prevent your program from accepting any input whatsoever.

Those are the only alternatives for how to create copyrighted works. No other alternatives exist. Everything else is illegal by the copyright laws.

…fucking what

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tp (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:30 Re:

Someone working from scratch could still be able to create a work that infringes upon the work of another artist.

You just need to trust your users to do the right thing. People who spend a lot of time doing it, will not let his work ruined by copyright claims. Pirates are usually people who don’t even have intention to create anything of their own, so all normal users of my tool can be trusted. We can still build our tool to help in the task of copyright checking, since the tool is meant to be used by young people who might not have developed their own copyright practices. So any rules that can verify copyright ownership is always helping.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:31

You just need to trust your users to do the right thing.

You can trust everyone not to use your program to infringe upon copyrights on purpose and they can still use it to infringe by sheer accident. There’s an old joke about monkeys, typewriters, and Shakespeare that explains this concept. Look into that.

The only viable, certifiable, 100% incontrovertible way you can prevent someone from using your program to infringe copyrights — on purpose or by accident — is to prevent your program from accepting any and all input whatsoever. You cannot stop all infringement if you allow even one person to accidentally infringe upon one copyright. And unless you’re motherfucking God, you have no way of guaranteeing you can stop all infringement.

Given your failures, I can assure you of this: You’re not God.

tp (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:32 Re:

There’s an old joke about monkeys, typewriters, and Shakespeare that explains this concept.

There needs to be infinite amount of these available for the theorem to hold. My web site supposedly doesn’t even have users, so the theorem does not apply. One of the fundamental requirements are missing and thus you are not able to get proof through the theorem prover.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:33

I don’t need to prove the “theorem” to know it’s true. On a long enough timeline, two things will happen:

  1. Everyone will die.
  2. Everyone will infringe upon at least one copyright somewhere in the world, even by accident.

You can’t guarantee — with the absolute unyielding certainty of a omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent supernatural deity — that, on a long enough timeline, nobody will infringe upon any given copyright anywhere in the world via the use of your program. You can’t even guarantee that you will never infringe upon a copyright.

The only way you can guarantee that your program won’t infringe any copyright anywhere is to prevent it from accepting user input. How do you square that factual fucking reality with your grandiose sexual fantasy of taking over the 3D graphics world and abolishing the public domain forever?

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:29 Re:

For example I’m using opensource code for audio

Didn’t you say you absolutely hated collaboration or relying on someone else’s code? What’s this then? You’re using someone else’s code which, by your posts in Oracle vs. Google, shouldn’t be allowed? Nice job committing copyright infringement, genius.

tp (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:28 Re:

Nobody is going to use a program that requires them to jump through the hoops of buying both web hosting and a custom domain name for the sake of displaying the output

well, all web developers are expected to have this available. Also php will be needed.

This does unfortunately filter out people who has isp that doesnt allow running php scripts in their web server, but thats how the current system works and there’s nothing I can do to fix that situation.

Scary Devil Monastery (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:18 Re:

Stephen?

New Rule; When tp has been running his troll schtick down so many iterations in the thread where a normal browser will just be showing a single vertical row of words, you are not allowed to reply any more. Just flag his crap and move on. ????

And that goes for everyone else as well. tp is using this tactic deliberately. His aim is not and never has been to persuade people about the supremacy of his vintage 80’s flash animator. His aim is to break the comment field to the point where no one bothers to read or comment.

He’s even admitted as much.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:9 Re:

The development of skill in writing, animation, video making, game building requires practice and feedback. Self publishing is a good way of getting that feedback, and some peoples who first efforts are crap will go on to create works that attract a real audience.

You however have demonstrated that you are reluctant to accept feedback, so self publishing id probably not the route for you, especially as on this forum you have shown an ability to alienate potential users.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:7 Re:

I only managed to implement animation teleportation after meeting these folks.

So until you met these folks, you had nothing. Despite telling everyone here that your technology was mind-blowingly ahead of its time, and so incredibly simple enough for kids that adults are too dumb to use it, and it’s responsible for the graphics tech in mobile phones used worldwide… the teleportation was only possible after meeting this publisher after you skulked these discussion threads for five years? What the hell were you even doing before that meeting, then, if the teleportation didn’t work?

It’s almost like you’re trying to lie so hard the story can’t even keep up with itself.

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tp (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:8 Re:

What the hell were you even doing before that meeting, then, if the teleportation didn’t work?

teleportation was implemented like 7 years after that meeting. You’re assuming some bullshit that don’t hold water.

basically the teleportation feature is significantly more complicated than you think. Instead of allowing users to "upload" content to my web server, teleportation allows users to publish material in their own web server. I.e. my web server is completely taken out of the equation, and they don’t need to "upload" material to any unknown entity… If they have php and can publish normal html pages, then the 3d engine downloaded from my web page can be used to teleport animations from the builder tool to the user’s own web server. I.e. no uploading.

But this also means the user is responsible for any content published through his own web server, and my server don’t need to take responsibility for someone else’s published material. That’s the key feature in teleportation. It just magically moves bits all over the world, in similar manner of how teleportation works in star trek.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:9

teleportation allows users to publish material in their own web server

If they have php and can publish normal html pages, then the 3d engine downloaded from my web page can be used to teleport animations from the builder tool to the user’s own web server

How is that not the same thing as uploading files, again?

You can put lipstick on a pig and call it the Homecoming Queen, but it’s still a pig.

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tp (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:10 Re:

How is that not the same thing as uploading files, again?

I don’t need to do the dangerous steps myself, instead end users can do it themselves. Basically users passwords to their hosting servers dont need to be stored in my web storage at all. I don’t even consider storing users passwords for gdpr reasons in my servers where hackers can slurp them and cause 2 million bucks fines for web developers. This awesome feature that saves millions in govt fines need a diffferent name compared to its expensive counterpart "uploading".

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:13

There’s basically two ways to do uploads

You forgot the third option: Let people download files so they can then upload them to their own servers without ever having to deal with assholes like you.

Or the fourth option: Let people directly copy files from your server to theirs without you needing to access their server on your side.

Neither of those are “teleportation”, and they’re both common ways to upload files to a given server. You seem to seriously and sincerely believe you’re solving problems that haven’t been problems for anyone with a bare minimum of experience in dealing with servers/data transfer. How far behind the times are you, tp? Are you living in a WandaVision-esque 1970s Hex or some shit?

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tp (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:19 Re:

It might be true that your site’s scope doesn’t need this feature, but then why do your keep bringing it up if that’s true?

There’s features that are missing because of gdpr:
1) login system / storing user’s passwords
2) uploading / letting users post their own animations to meshpage
3) cookie support, i.e. keeping people logged in
4) asset caching / storing meshes in local storage for speedier load times for 2nd time
5) autosave feature for web version of builder

I.e. the legal framework that we have available is killing some useful features that would otherwise be possible to implement.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:20 Re:

None of the "problems" you claim to have is stopping Unity or Blender.

Once again, with feeling: your blind allegiance to the RIAA isn’t helpful or constructive in the slightest.

On one hand this sort of mental damage you seem to be displaying would likely qualify for some kind of Scandinavian welfare, but on the other hand I’d genuinely like to see copyright be responsible for someone’s demise.

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PaulT (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:22 Re:

First, name which GDRP requirements apply to those applications that’s not already in place. Because, you seem to be hallucinating some feature that doesn’t exist.

Then, explain why you keep referring to a law that’s been in force for nearly 3 years as if it’s some kind of requirement for the future.

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tp (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:23 Re:

name which GDRP requirements apply to those applications that’s not already in place.

1) user passwords/street addresses/names/phone numbers/email addresses shouldn’t leak to the internet
=> 3 million fine if your site gets hacked and you fail to follow this rule
2) when site is hacked, you need to inform press/gdpr govt contact person within 2 days
=> they will increase your 3 million fine if you fail to follow the time limit
=> fine amount is dependent on how govt found about your leak, if they find out it in dark web criminal sales places instead of coming from yourself, the fine gets increased by 3 times
3) if your site uses cookies, it need to obtain consent with popups from the end user before storing anything to user’s computer => again big fines if fail to follow this
4) same for local storage or any other way to slurp valuable bits from user’s computer

a law that’s been in force for nearly 3 years as if it’s some kind of requirement for the future.

Its the anonymous coward that said that blender&unity don’t have problems with implementing these features.. This means they are not yet following gdpr rules, and once they do it they need to remove the features.

Basically, these limitations make maintaining user’s passwords/user ids or any other personal information like street addresses etc very difficult on the cloud, since the user database need to be constantly guarded against hackers. This requirement in the law prevents sloppy web devs from leaking customer databsses and passwords to the criminals or selling them to highest bidders behind end users back.

Then the cookie popups are needed if you want to use any hard disk space from the end users. This means all the web sites on the planet (also usa ones) need to add cookie acceptance popup if any person in the EU might lose their valuable hard disk space because your web site needs to store data in user’s computers.

Its up to the individual web devs to decide themselves how to implement the rules, but some of the failures has millions in fines coming from the government.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:24 Re:

And…? What features do Blender and Unity have when it comes to 3D modeling and animating that require a username and password? If I create a model in Blender or Unity, what part of my user information does Blender or Unity even get?

And even if creating 3D shapes is somehow tied to sensitive user information… so what? The fact that corporate websites need to be protected against hacking is not a damning point. Pfizer got hacked for their vaccine information, that doesn’t suddenly mean they’re not allowed to produce vaccines anymore.

Besides, if your point is to be GDPR, RIAA-compliant by not storing any logs, that’s something the RIAA is very annoyed about. They’re not happy about ISPs and VPNs in Sweden not storing logs because they claim it makes their jobs harder. As someone who claims to follow what the RIAA wants, that’s not exactly a glowing review from you.

PaulT (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:24 Re:

"1) user passwords/street addresses/names/phone numbers/email addresses shouldn’t leak to the internet"

OK. What does that have to do with Blender or Unity, which do not have those details (except if you have a Unity Pro account? What evidence do you have that they do not already comply where needed?

"2) when site is hacked, you need to inform press/gdpr govt contact person within 2 days"

Do you have evidence that they have been hacked and failed to comply, or that they will be unable to do so if that happens in the future? Also, a hack doesn’t matter if all you’ve ever used Blender for is the open source download, because they don’t have the relevant data anyway.

I won’t bother detailing all your other failures, clearly you’re basing things on fantasies again rather than any actual information.

tp (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:25 Re:

What does that have to do with Blender or Unity,

Do you really think that I would follow the activities of blender and unity enough to know how they implemented their gdpr requirements? All I can say what is required by the law, and it’s up to those entities to ensure that their work is following the law.

If you want to find out, you can of course go find out about that information yourself.

or that they will be unable to do so if that happens in the future?

Well, anyone who stores passwords or user information is suspicious recarding gdpr. This is why companies like facebook and twitter are in the press all the time for their gdpr failures and how criminals got access to their user databases.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:26

Do you really think that I would follow the activities of blender and unity enough to know how they implemented their gdpr requirements?

you can of course go find out about that information yourself

You made the claims; you bear the burden of proving them. No one else is responsible for that but you.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:26 Re:

We get it: aside from acknowledging that your competitors exist and you hate them, you don’t actually know anything about their compliance beyond a dim hope that they might do something that gets them arrested and lets your software take the spotlight.

On top of making you look like an even bigger dick, it’s… honestly not a great business strategy.

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tp (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:27 Re:

aside from acknowledging that your competitors exist and you hate them

Yes, I knew already in 2013 when the project was started, that there will be some competitors that have been playing the game longer than I have. There are only small number of those competitors available, but those few that are doing it longer than I did, will become significant problems for new entrants. There is barriers for entry for each market, and the level of competition is only determined by how many of those are still playing the game.

Basically you can only list 3 of them, like blender and unity/unreal, but you fail to see that there is more pressing competitors available like sketchfab and google poly. But once you’re done listing these, and you realize that this is very small number of vendors if these need to fullfil the 3d needs of the whole world. The world is a big place, and there is room for large number of 3d vendors, and we still don’t have enough programmers, graphics designers and managers to meet the demand for 3d objects. Once you realise that this small group of people need to supply 3d models to the whole world, the team size is showing its limits.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:28 Re:

And if software worked in the same way as, say, food supplies did – you might have had a point. Unfortunately for you, people can continue using Blender’s software without bothering with yours, because Blender will simply not run out. Same goes for anyone else with an actually functioning software, not some bloat-filled malware "browser-based" program that even its creator admits has no users, and will remove features like basic modeling just to be RIAA-compliant.

tp (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:29 Re:

Blender will simply not run out.

This is not true. They get more beginner users and those people will start asking for advice and hints how to get 3d models done. Soon all the resources from blender organisation is spent for answering user questions. They have tried to avoid this fate already by creating youtube videos of various topics, but the beginners are not finding that information from the flood of all youtube videos, and the blender organisations resources are spent. I.e. it’ll eventually run out. The more you use it, the faster it goes.

PaulT (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:30 Re:

"They get more beginner users and those people will start asking for advice and hints how to get 3d models done. Soon all the resources from blender organisation is spent for answering user questions"

Wow, you really are clueless, aren’t you?

There is this concept known as a community. People within a community will help each other out. Many thousands of people have had these questions asked and answered by the community without a single person working for Blender getting involved.

An active community will never "run out" of resources, because as it it grows, so do the available resources. That’s why Blender, a project that existed for many years before your site, is so much more successful.

tp (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:31 Re:

People within a community will help each other out.

That was working in 1992 but it does not work any longer. Basically GPL and LGPL was designed in the world where this community helps other people actually was working. Small hint: it doesn’t work any longer. The community members are just trolling, bashing other people’s work, and announcing their decisions to leave the projects, even Stallman gets bashed for his views on woman’s rights, and noone likes his singing even though he wanted to publish the horror.

Basically this free software ideals that existed in 1992 are no longer around.

PaulT (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:34 Re:

"their irc channel on freenode was more like idling and not a robust user community"

This might shock you, but IRC not the main go-to method for communication in 2021, especially when you’re talking about end users and not seasoned developers. People today are more likely to use social media, Discord, or various other methods – especially for something like Blender (why would people asking for help with 3D graphics go to a largely text-only communications medium?)

"Maybe you have some different info on where that robust user community exists?"

https://www.blender.org/community/
https://www.blender.org/support/
https://blender.community/c/
https://blenderartists.org
https://www.meetup.com/topics/blender-3d/
https://discord.gg/blender

Just a quick few off the top of my head, but the beauty of a wide community is that they might help you wherever you are rather than demand you come to a pre-determined place. Ask a question in any relevant subreddit or on Twitter, etc., and there might be someone will to help without you having to go searching.

Whereas… hmmm… searches Reddit for meshpage – 0 results (not just no subreddits, nobody’s even mentioning it. Searches Twitter for meshpage – I see a lot of tweets from 2013 in Arabic? Weird..

tp (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:35 Re:

searches Reddit for meshpage – 0 results

Your search skills need some upgrade… There’s at least one reddit post mentioning it, since I have posted it myself.

Dunno much about how reddit searches are working, but given that you can’t find the post where I announced it, you might as well improve your searching skills.

PaulT (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:36 Re:

Ha ha never mind I found it by searching via Google.

https://www.reddit.com/r/gamedev/comments/6yps7a/heres_another_way_to_write_games_without_any/

So, yeah… a post containing no body, just a spammy link to your own site. Which appears to be the only post you’ve ever made with that account on Reddit, without the slightest attempt to communicate with the community you’re trying to sell to before or after the spam post. No wonder you get ignored.

Oh, and for reference – the post is archived, which is presumably why it doesn’t come up on the Reddit search. Also – really? You go to a subreddit targeted at game developers and you write a contextless post offering the ability to create "simple demos" without programming? You really need someone to explain human behaviour to you before you try marketing again.

PaulT (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:38 Re:

Then stop being a dickhead and link to the post you’re thinking of, because the link i provided is a spam link with no body, connected to a throwaway account you used for a single piece of spam.

…and I’m looking specifically for references to your shitshow of a site, imagine how little your posts are seen by people who don’t know you exist…

tp (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:39 Re:

Then stop being a dickhead

I never promised my technology can create a dickhead. It only creates assholes.

The history of this feature was that it created robots that were supposed to fail their are-you-a-robot -test used in many internet services. Basically nazis during world war 2 managed to invent techniques that allows converting humans to robots. Obviously my tech knows the history, but I slightly failed in the implementation and it turns out the output is just assholes.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:40 Re:

I never promised my technology can create a dickhead. It only creates assholes.

Consider yourself to be a miracle-worker, then, because you spent years on this failed animation teleportation tech and all you got was Tero Pulkinnen, the dickhead asshole who has to beg the government for mansion welfare.

tp (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:41 Re:

you spent years on this failed animation teleportation tech and all you got

I also got
1) a builder tool, suitable for web developers
2) a 3d engine that can render 3d on a web page
3) a content distribution system that can publish 3d models
4) 600 plugin modules ready for use
5) 100 computer games
6) 70 demos and animations
7) teleportation system
8) 350 downloads from itch.io
9) 1950 views in itch.io
10) no real users
11) a negative review from teenagers who watched a bus ad
12) bug reports from irc
13) tons of new features in every release
14) a youtube video displaying the feature set

If that’s not enough for one person, then I don’t know what is.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:45 Re:

Why would I want to do that when you have no issues with listing "no real users" as an advantage for your malware?

You’re far more entertaining when you play the part of the failed troll, sucking up to arrested and imprisoned lawyers for your mansion fund. Your program being trash is not my problem to "fix". It’s your problem for trying to market something that makes game design college engines in C++ look like Unreal Engine 4 by comparison.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:47 Re:

And yet, if people buy steak instead of vegetables, it’s not the responsibility of the store to force people to purchase unwanted vegetables. Nor is it the government’s job to fine people for not buying vegetables.

Your argument for the free market becomes very suspect when you keep openly voicing your desires for the government to make all your competition illegal.

PaulT (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:47 Re:

"And yet, if people buy steak instead of vegetables, it’s not the responsibility of the store to force people to purchase unwanted vegetables."

Also, if you are in a vegan community, it’s your own fault if your steak only place goes under when you refuse to sell anything else. Not to mention that tp’s binary thinking misses out on the fact that most people buy both and will prioritise what meets their needs every day. Even a butcher’s shop will offer other things.

PaulT (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:26 Re:

"Do you really think that I would follow the activities of blender and unity enough to know how they implemented their gdpr requirements? "

Since you’re making the claim that they are breaking the law, yes I would hope you have something to back that claim up.

"Well, anyone who stores passwords or user information is suspicious recarding gdpr"

Can you go to bleander.org and show me where they require passwords?

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PaulT (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:28 Re:

"I made no such claims"

You know that we can both read and understand the thread, even if you seem to have problems understanding your own words.

AC brought up Blender and Unity first, that is true, but only in context of naming them as your competitors (a fact that is well known and discussed in other threads), and that they don’t appear to have the problems you claim are difficult for you to overcome.

However, you immediately responded with the reepartedclaim that these projects do not comply with the requirements of the GDPR, a claim that is yours and yours alone, and which you have repeated numerous times without evidence.

Since you are making the claim, in order for it to not be simple defamation coming from a bitter loser in the market, it should be backed with a) evidence that these companies are required to obey certain parts of the GDRP (which they may not be – for example a site that does not store passwords is not bound by those sections), and most importantly b) – evidence that they are failing to comply. Since your entire argument is based on the idea that they are operating illegally, I would like to see your proof of this

Do you have proof, or is your rambling nonsense now getting into direct defamation and libel that could be actionable by your competitors in a court of law?

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tp (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:29 Re:

you immediately responded with the reepartedclaim that these projects do not comply with the requirements of the GDPR

I said no such thing. My statement is "listing the requirements set by the law that every project need to implement, not just blender/unity"… And I made no claim that any specific project do not follow these requirements. The only claim is that the law requires the projects to implement them. As I said earlier, I have no status information about any particular projects (other than mine).

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tp (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:30 Re:

I have no status information about any particular projects (other than mine).

Further, I think it is illegal to ask status information about a particular project from anyone other than the person responsible for that project. So if you want blender’s or unity’s status information, then you need to go find their responsible person. Why would you ask random people on techdirt about such information, when you know very well that real status information is only available from the persons who develop those technologies.

PaulT (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:31 Re:

"Further, I think it is illegal to ask status information about a particular project from anyone other than the person responsible for that project"

You think it’s illegal to look at blender’s public repos?

"Why would you ask random people on techdirt about such information"

Because the only person claiming that these projects are not GDPR compliant is you, and I was hoping you’d have some proof of your own claims.

tp (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:32 Re:

You think it’s illegal to look at blender’s public repos?

You can’t get their status from the repo. They could have some crazy requirements coming or half the world shouted that their tech is awesome and all their time goes to responding user requests. Or something other than you simply cannot figure out on your own. Asking random people on techdirt about such information is not very good thing to do, and you just get invalid information to your system.

I know that popular projects are in focus and everyone wants to know how those projects are dealing with important issues, but you simply cannot get the right information without consulting the people responsible for those technologies.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:33 Re:

You’ve been making all these claims, saying that features have to be removed if they’re not compliant – and yet when confronted with the fact that the features in Blender haven’t been removed, you still won’t admit they are, in fact, compliant?

The truth is nobody needs to ask anyone in Blender if their shit is compliant. If it isn’t, by all means go and haul them to court if you think it’ll help you. If you want to claim compliance as the advantage your software has over others, it’s your job to prove that everyone else is ignoring compliance. Not ours.

tp (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:34 Re:

If you want to claim compliance as the advantage your software has over others

I don’t think anyone who deals with gdpr is going to claim that compliance for gdpr is an advantage. They all just want to avoid the 3 million dollar fine. There’s nothing else to it, following the rules gives no advantage in the eyes of the customers.

tp (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:36 Re:

you claim that there’s no advantage in being compliant?

The advantage that the law dictates does not go to the people who pay the bills and develop technologies. It’s end users who are there
to benefit from the law. Basically the moneymen has decided that they don’t want to develop services that benefit users, since that does not pay the bills. Thus govt need to force some changes by changing the law and requiring everyone to implement the stuff that noone wants to implement. Basically the market decided to go with different technologies, and now with gdpr they need to backtrack to more legal position after govt threatens developers with millions of fines.

customers != users.

PaulT (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:33 Re:

"They could have some crazy requirements coming"

Which would not fall under the GDPR since they don’t exist yet. As for the rest of this paragraph, you still don’t seem to understand the basic of what open source software is, let alone how it works.

"Asking random people on techdirt about such information"

I’m asking the one person making a claim to support his own claim. Who else do you suggest I ask about your statements?

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:35 Re:

There’s no need to twist. Anyone can look at your troll messages for the last five years and look up your opinions on the public domain and fair use. On the other hand every time you post it’s like trying to watch amoeba attempting verbal communication for the first time.

tp (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:36 Re:

On the other hand every time you post it’s like trying to watch amoeba attempting verbal communication for the first time.

Yeah, that’s why I built a proper communication system for myself. My meshpage.org web site is providing more powerful messages than what this lowly text-based communication can provide. For example, amoeba should look like this: https://meshpage.org/36 and you’ll see why this is more powerful way to communicate than what your existing system provides.

tp (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:32 Re:

Its the anonymous coward that said

Yes, I’m relying on information I received from AC, and there’s a tidbit like this:
"anyone who tries to follow gdpr rules have problems with the requirement that there is 3 million bucks fines for certain failures".

If you combine that piece to whatever the AC said, you get exactly the statement. And it means nothing like what you think it means.
in particular, it doesnt need to state anything about any specific project like unity or blender.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:9 Re:

teleportation was implemented like 7 years after that meeting

Ah, so now we have a timeframe of what happened. You’re saying that the meeting happened in the past, as late as 2014 going by the dates you’re putting up. So why would you be here in 2015, complaining about why copyright enforcement penalties aren’t harsh enough, and demanding that everyone fund your Minecraft mansion? Why piss and moan here, when your technology wasn’t even implemented at that point?

The above still assumes that your technology actually exists and works, mind you. You got strung around for seven years under an NDA, all without a game to show for it? I know that game development cycles can be harsh, but this theoretical publisher is wasting time and money if they’re actually trying to fund the total nothing you’ve been producing.

from my web page can be used to teleport animations from the builder tool to the user’s own web server. I.e. no uploading

"So by my own definition this doesn’t violate RIAA fantasy law". I think Techdirt regulars will recognize the kind of logic move you’re trying to pull here – Aereo attempted it. It didn’t work out well for them. Realistically all you’re saying here is "I’m not liable for what my users do", but that rarely mattes to the RIAA. Hell, the RIAA isn’t even good to third party hosts who actually implement anti-piracy filtering technology. If the RIAA can’t get their pound of flesh from random users over the Internet they have no problem going after tech vendors like you.

my server don’t need to take responsibility for someone else’s published material

Again, your plan is not the foolproof gambit you think it is. The RIAA assumes that any attempt to not take responsibility is an attempt to make copyright infringement easier. The amount of deferment you continue to give them whenever these issues get brought up will not earn you their favor like you so desperately believe.

Scary Devil Monastery (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7 Re:

"Did you think teleportation was implemented in 2 minutes after reading some dummies books?"

<looks at MS Teams, Skype, Telegram, bittorrent, a thousand-and-one sync solutions…>; "Yes"

Most of the tech you describe turns out to have been old hat twenty years ago. Today what little of it is still in use is all fully integrated in point-and-click solutions or under the hood of the basic OS.

If we were living in the Star Trek universe you’d be the concussed ferengi trying to sell black powder rockets as replacement for inertialess drives.

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tp (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:8 Re:

Most of the tech you describe turns out to have been old hat twenty years ago.

20 years ago this tech had no chance in the marketplace. gdpr forces fresh look into these technologies, given that everyone who does the 2010s system will be ratted to government investigators for gdpr violations and on the hook for 2 million in gdpr related fines.

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tp (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:16 Re:

the Finnish government give you a free mansion for a software project that has no users.

Well, I needed to give you a chance to work like a community and become a user of my technology, i.e. help projects build mansion plans. But you refused. Now you’re back here complaining that the project has no users. Your refusal is causing the problem.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:19 Re:

3) technology at meshpage will finish your transformation to become an asshole

Well, that would explain you. Work with meshpage, turn into an asshole. On top of all the features you have to remove to become RIAA/GDPR compliant, as well as your boast of "I have no users, therefore I can’t be held responsible".

Mate, you have the worst fucking sales pitch ever. You waltzed onto this website in 2015 demanding that other software be destroyed to open up the market for your software you go out of your way to make sure nobody uses, then decide that holding everyone to the weakest possible ransom is the best possible business strategy. Your solution, like your sad excuse for a Maya/3dsmax forgery, is so dismally pathetic it makes garbage feel embarrassed.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:21 Re:

Basically they need all the help they can get.

Pixar created their own software instead of Meshpage and its creator who is angry that people have been eating eggs and bacon for breakfast over 2000 years, and thinks that it’s some damning point against humanity.

Whatever help you think the 3D modelers and animators of the world need, they sure as hell are not getting it from you.

tp (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:22 Re:

they sure as hell are not getting it from you.

Well, your solution to the problem isn’t too great either.

We haven’t even seen your website, I suspect such thing doesn’t even exist.

There’s like 10 years lead time before you can get a web site up and running, which would have any chance of helping those 3d modellers.

tp (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:24 Re:

it’s just that you have to wait a decade before the site’s ready?

Yes, I’m only at year 8 mark, so I expect the users will flood the site once I have 10 years development behind me.

But the bigger question is: what exactly you’re doing to help those poor 3d modellers? They need to supply enough models to fill the whole world with 3d stuff, and the activity is not meeting its determined deadlines. Soon that area is going to be huge bottleneck and we’re all worse off if the problem cannot be solved before shit hits the fan.

PaulT (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:25 Re:

"Yes, I’m only at year 8 mark, so I expect the users will flood the site once I have 10 years development behind me."

Yeah, good luck with that, but I believe you’ll be disappointed. Do you honestly believe that 10 years is typical for a startup, or did you just misread something referring to 10 man years and you thought that meant 10 calendar years?

"But the bigger question is: what exactly you’re doing to help those poor 3d modellers?"

I don’t have to do anything, their needs are already met, and you haven’t convinced anyone that your software will do something they actually want. I’d suggest investing in some kind of competent marketing staff in the next 2 years, though – you’ve completely failed to explain what needs your software fills to a forum of tech-minded people who patiently put up with your rambling nonsense. I somehow doubt that you’ll get that message across to existing Blender users, especially if you spend your time whining that they’re incompetent for not finding your page before, as you have done here.

tp (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:26 Re:

their needs are already met

This isn’t true. We need the whole world to be filled with 3d models, and with the current pace, we’re never going to reach the target. There’s strict deadlines coming from how quickly the computer hardware is being replaced, and 3d model support has been developed from 1980s forward, and it is not meeting its promises. GPU vendors are spending huge amount of money to develop hardware for the whole world, but the useful applications utilizing 3d technology are not appearing despite huge promises.

Their best apps are stuff like 3d scanning apps and standardized 3d model display app. But they haven’t been able to go next level from that. The hardware side is ready, but noone has bothered to develop useful stuff utilizing these technologies.

1990s was the best decade recarding 3d technology, there was architects and engineers using opengl for designing how to build real world buildings using the software, and there was software calculating stresses to keep buildings from crashing to the ground.

But after that, it’s all been just gaming and gaming and gaming. Nothing useful has come from the technology, it’s just entertainment. Basically the engineers and architects have been dropping the tech for its failed promises and focus has been in keeping children occupied and away from the spraypainting the walls.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:27 Re:

We need the whole world to be filled with 3d models

And who decides this? You? Who the fuck died and made you self-proclaimed 3D king of the world?

3d model support has been developed from 1980s forward, and it is not meeting its promises.

I’ve got friends in engineering using AutoCAD, digital twins, virtual simulations and other existing 3D mechanisms to do their work. Your claim that any work involving 3D has ground to a halt just doesn’t hold water.

but noone has bothered to develop useful stuff utilizing these technologies

And? That’s a human resources issue. Software doesn’t mean jack if there’s nobody using it. You need users using the software to make 3D models – oh, but wait, you don’t actually want users, do you?

1990s was the best decade recarding 3d technology, there was architects and engineers using opengl for designing how to build real world buildings using the software, and there was software calculating stresses to keep buildings from crashing to the ground.

Engineers still do this. People still construct buildings using tech that’s more advanced that what came out of the 1990s. You want everyone to go back to 1990s tech?

it’s all been just gaming and gaming and gaming. Nothing useful has come from the technology

Oh, so it’s the game development industry’s fault, then. This excuse would hold a lot more water if you didn’t literally claim in the same thread to have signed an NDA with a game publisher, but thanks for admitting once again that nothing useful will come out from your technology.

tp (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:28 Re:

thanks for admitting once again that nothing useful will come out from your technology.

Well, my tech is flexible enough to meet many different industries. Basically the solution is to build a lego box, i.e. large collection of lego blocks which you can combine to get large number of different kinds of behaviours out of simple building blocks. I have over 600 of these blocks available, and it contains many important pieces which are completely forgotten when 3d tech has been deprecated or displaced with gaming technologies.

Basically the next chapter for 3d tech has arrived.

PaulT (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:29 Re:

"Basically the solution is to build a lego box… I have over 600 of these blocks available"

Good for you. Do you know how many other models are out there, in professional everyday use? A lot more than that.

"Basically the next chapter for 3d tech has arrived."

Yet, you’re still incapable of explaining what that is, why it’s so revolutionary and how it’s different from what’s already here. You make a lot of noise, but you rarely say anything about your software.

PaulT (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:27 Re:

"We need the whole world to be filled with 3d models, and with the current pace, we’re never going to reach the target."

Whose target? Does anyone outside of your deranged head call for such things?

"GPU vendors are spending huge amount of money to develop hardware for the whole world"

This is a problem because…? I mean, apart from the fact that the GPUs are being hoovered up by crypto miners instead of being used for their original intended purpose.

"the useful applications utilizing 3d technology are not appearing"

What specific type of application are you calling for that doesn’t yet exist?

"But after that, it’s all been just gaming and gaming and gaming"

Oh, so you are just whining that a certain section of the market gets all the attention, while conveniently ignoring the existence of other tech. I’m sorry that you’ve now resorted to pretending other applications don’t exist to make a point. Is that because when you get to more specialised software like architectural rendering, your list of competitors grows exponentially larger?

tp (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:30 Re:

Meanwhile your program is missing useful output for any 3d modelling program, and that is stl/obj/3mf files so that models can be 3d printed.

Nope, there’s ability to save .obj files.

Binary format saving is also supported, in case you want faster load times. The ascii files might be slightly slower to parse than properly designed binary file.

tp (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:32 Re:

if you let people save output to a file format that can be shared with others

well, the .obj files has significant limitations like not being able to store materials or shaders. So if you design the model with builder, then save the model, the output on other apps will look nothing like the original. Basically I just let them create nice looking screenshots and when they export the model to other programs, it’ll look like 3 year old kid made the model without any textures or lights or shading. Many of the program’s features simply disappear if you try that.

tp (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:34 Re:

then you’re fucked because you let your program be used to infringe copyright

I think you’ve somehow misunderstood how copyright works. Basically you’re allowed to copy your own work as widely as you can, assuming that you actually created it yourself instead of copy-pasted the material from someone else. Thus the "output" of the tool has no whatsoever problems with copyrighted material. Any processing will transform your models to different form and you get to derived work area instead of plain-old copy which pirates are dealing with.

It’s the input that you need to be careful with, not the output.

tp (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:36 Re:

if it can still accept any kind of input

I don’t allow any kind of input. The inputs are carefully designed to only feed on file formats that are not known to be in significant piracy problems. Basically if we only allow easy-to-create material, it has less copyright risks than if you allow blueprints to send humans to moon. This easy-to-create means easy-to-create-from-scratch, not easy-after-relying-on-someone-elses-work. Single jpg file has less copyright issues than .mp4 file containing a whole movie that took 100 million dollars to create. Thus filtering out expensive material can be done from file format basis, i.e. mp4 files can be filtered out, and jpg files allowed. Basically jpg files are only possibile because there exist camera hardware where creating a jpg file takes 2 second press on Record button. While copyright applies to these works too, the ease of creation allows using jpg files without significant copyright problems.

Thus all inputs are not allowed, only the cheap and easy to create material is allowed. You’re not going to be able to take a hollywood movie and use my tools to edit them for piracy distribution. That simply isn’t possible.

There are some dangerous areas also in my tools. For example, creating demos/animations have a known piracy problem where people in 1980s used to "attach" those demos to pirated material before distributing the material. This kind of attach problems are difficult to control and dangerous for anyone who creates democoding tools. We have several dropped features because of this problem, for example text drawing has been implemented in slow and cumbersome way to avoid people using the tools to subtitle pirated movie files. Making the feature difficult to use is the chosen alternative in these cases.

PaulT (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:37 Re:

"I don’t allow any kind of input".

Then why would anyone even consider using your site? I mean, seriously, everything you talk about here on the rare occasions where you get into specifics seems to be that you’re creating a tool that removes all creative control from the artist using it. Why the hell would someone even consider using that?

"The inputs are carefully designed to only feed on file formats that are not known to be in significant piracy problems"

Such a thing does not exist, especially within the parameters you choose to talk about. If a file exists, it can be modified. No exceptions – whether it’s DRM infected, binary-only, anything – if it can be read it can be modified. If it can be modified outside of your application, you have no control over every copy of that file and it can be used for infringing purposes.

"Single jpg file has less copyright issues than .mp4 file"

I’m sure that professional photographers and logo designers are going to be happy to know that you think their work requires less protection than someone’s home movie.

"For example, creating demos/animations have a known piracy problem where people in 1980s used to "attach" those demos to pirated material before distributing the material"

By… storing them on the same disc. What stunning tech that must have been, people loading a program on a disc then allowing you to open other files. Are you actually fighting against the very basics of technology with your "design" now?

"Making the feature difficult to use is the chosen alternative in these cases."

No, the chosen alternative is to avoid your software like the plague and use something allows you to create with it.

tp (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:38 Re:

No, the chosen alternative is to avoid your software like the plague and use something allows you to create with it.

well those tools will be sued and will disappear from the market when the first pirate group decides to use it for making pirated movies more fun to watch. Once MPAA finds out that the piracy groups use the tool, the author will be sued for facilitating copyright infringement and then he has no other choice than stop distributing the tool. This can happen to large tools like blender too, if they don’t consider the consiquences of their features far enough to prevent the misuses.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:39 Re:

well those tools will be sued and will disappear from the market when the first pirate group decides to use it for making pirated movies more fun to watch

Hoping that your competition loses to you by praying that they get arrested for breaking laws that exist only in your head is, once again, a terrible business strategy.

Once MPAA finds out that the piracy groups use the tool, the author will be sued for facilitating copyright infringement and then he has no other choice than stop distributing the tool

The MPAA’s definition of "piracy" can be performed by any user with access to Windows Movie Maker, or any video editing software that’s retail or freely distributed. None of those tools has been shut down by law enforcement, so Blender’s odds are pretty good. Never mind that no pirate has used 3D modeling software to pirate movies.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:41 Re:

Ignoring how you’ve, once again, chosen to ignore the fact that movie pirates don’t require 3D modeling software… Microsoft is in its own antipiracy gig. The Business Software Alliance. They don’t need a contract with the MPAA to do anything. Then again, considering you think that the MPAA has promised everyone time travel technology it’s evident that, once again, you have no idea how any of this works.

PaulT (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:42 Re:

"Microsoft is in its own antipiracy gig. The Business Software Alliance. They don’t need a contract with the MPAA to do anything."

Which, by itself, makes any assertion that Movie Maker is infringing even more ridiculous. Why would an anti-piracy outfit create and distribute piracy software with every copy of the operating system it’s trying to protect from piracy?

This is one of the reasons I like engaging with this guy. His fantasies don’t even make internal logical sense, let alone in the real world, so it’s fun to try and dissect what reality he’s living in.

PaulT (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:40 Re:

"Hoping that your competition loses to you by praying that they get arrested for breaking laws that exist only in your head is, once again, a terrible business strategy."

Yet, strangely, actually more effective than his current marketing strategy.

"Never mind that no pirate has used 3D modeling software to pirate movies."

I’d actually argue that if they did, the amount of work and transformative nature of the end product could almost be classed as a new artwork.

Why tp thinks that anyone would bother to do this instead of just copying a video file is left to his deranged imagination.

PaulT (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:39 Re:

"well those tools will be sued and will disappear from the market when the first pirate group decides to use it for making pirated movies more fun to watch"

First, despite the wet dreams of you and the totalitarian regimes you support, tool makers generally can’t be sued for user activity they had no part in, and this has been decided since at least the Betamax decision.

Secondly, it’s very strange how you keep predicting imminent problems for tools that are older than your shitshow. I could almost understand your disconnect from reality if we were talking about newcomers who stole your thunder after your incompetence led you to take too long to create your product, and they beat you to market. But, the people you’re whining about were well-established with thousands or millions of users before you wrote your first line of code.

tp (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:40 Re:

tool makers generally can’t be sued for user activity they had no part in,

This isn’t true. Basically the pattern how this spans out is that the tool maker is part of the piracy ecosystem’s important developers. I.e. pirate team leader sends bug report to tool maker that this (piracy) feature is needed, without mentioning that they plan to use it for their illegal operation. If tool developer implements the feature, he suddenly becomes part of the pirate group’s team. And everyone inside that team can be sued when they help the copyright infringement goal, including your tool developer. The team can be other side of the globe only communication being some internet link… It’s like being in a car that was used for getaway vehicle in a robbery. Everyone from that car can be sued.

PaulT (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:41 Re:

"This isn’t true"

I breathlessly await your citations.

"pirate team leader sends bug report to tool maker that this (piracy) feature is needed, without mentioning that they plan to use it for their illegal operation. If tool developer implements the feature, he suddenly becomes part of the pirate group’s team"

Your fantasies get ever more bizarre, and I’m always glad that the real world doesn’t work like the dystopian nightmare you invented.

tp (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:42 Re:

the dystopian nightmare you invented.

My predictions of the future are actually working very nicely:
1) my bee game prediction took 2 weeks to span out http://tpgames.org/index.html
2) my shuttle game prediction took a little longer, since elon musk is slow in their rocket implementation https://meshpage.org/237

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:41 Re:

Trying to fit everything into how the MPAA thinks copyright law should work is going to be the end of you. Which is why Prenda Law and Malibu Media got their copyright enforcement regimes shut down by judges – because their interpretation of the law, like yours, is flat out ridiculous.

By your own laws, you’d sue someone living in a house that a getaway car passed by.

tp (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:42 Re:

you’d sue someone living in a house that a getaway car passed by.

That is possible interpretation of the law too, given that if the car stops there for getting more fuel or food without going to the public places where police might see them, it’s clearly owners of the house in big trouble. It’s always dangerous when criminals are nearby.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:17 Re:

I needed to give you a chance to work like a community

lmao, what community? The 2015 build of your website looked so barebones it made Geocities templates look like Web 2.0 web design. You’ve spent so long on this site, so much effort ranting and raving about how other humans are scum compared to you, which is why you took this project solo. You’ve made it clear since Day 1, you don’t believe in communities. Communities tell you how unfriendly, unwieldy, and unsupported your work is, so you go out of your way to boast how not having users works to your advantage.

I’ll give you credit for actually getting your head out of your own ass for once and making your website not look like a complete train wreck, but that’s like thanking an arsonist for not setting your entire house on fire.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:19 Re:

so making web sites somehow causes 300k damages?

Your claim, not mine.

I thought the finished web sites just disappears to the flood of 5 billion web sites on the planet?

That’s not something I take issue with. You’re the one here, angry that you have to compete with 5 billion other websites that compete with Meshpage.

PaulT (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:21 Re:

What’s funny is that your own claim makes your failure worse. It’s one thing to fail to compete in a flooded marketplace with too many competitors to count. It’s quite another to set up as an alternative to a handful of competitors, and years later still have no users whose needs are met by that niche product.

In fact, it’s funny to look at how things have grown during your period of failure. Blender has grown massively in the time your site has been available – https://www.blender.org/press/blender-by-the-numbers-2019 (slightly out of date but I guarantee they haven’t suddenly lost all their users in the time since).

I wonder – how is this possible, since you claim all those new users must drown the site in support requests and that they have no community?

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:21 Re:

I only need to compete against those websites which you can list when asked.

And how would you know this? When you were asked whether you know if Blender and Unity are GDPR-compliant, you went off on a whole tangent about how nobody outside of those companies and development teams have access to that information, therefore you can’t be expected to provide the proof for your claim.

You don’t run those other sites, or have access to evidence or stats on how other non-Meshpage websites are doing. How do you know you only have 15 competitors? How did you even come up with that number, aside from hauling it out of your ass? And if only 15 of those websites matter, why bring up the 5 billion websites to start with if they’re mostly irrelevant?

tp (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:22 Re:

How do you know you only have 15 competitors?

It’s easy. I just ask you to list all the websites that you can remember. That is a short list. It’s something like facebook, twitter, youtube, google search, instagram… i.e. the stuff that is being repeatedly announced in the press. Very short list. Nowhere near 2 billion sites.

Just need to get meshpage to the short list.

PaulT (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:23 Re:

"It’s easy. I just ask you to list all the websites that you can remember."

We could be here all day, and believe me I visit a lot of site you don’t know about but even if I managed to only mention a few hundred off the top of my head, what does that prove? The fact that i don’t think of a site doesn’t mean that it doesn’t have more users than your site or doesn’t compete with you.

"Just need to get meshpage to the short list."

Good luck. Might I suggest something other than buses next time you want to market your site?

tp (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:24 Re:

Might I suggest something other than buses next time you want to market your site?

Too bad the busses are the only thing available which is cheap enough for our budget. Television ads are too expensive, and radio cannot display the nice 3d graphics, and billboards and adverticement screen in a market are not readily available. So busses are the only alternative. Busses have another advantage, its easy to get your ad to the bus screens, since the bus company offices are in the center of the city, so supplying them with a suitable 15 second video clip was the only difficult part.

PaulT (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:25 Re:

"Too bad the busses are the only thing available which is cheap enough for our budget"

Have you heard of this thing called "the Internet" which allows you to advertise for exactly $0? You can get better results if you pay, but effective marketing at no cost is quite easy if you know what you’re doing.

I’d suggest looking into it at some point since you’re trying to market a fucking website with no offline presence!!!

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:25 Re:

Yeah, and how did that work out again? You got maybe one review of your website, and a negative one at that. Which you post on your own website like it’s a 5-star appraisal. Like, at that point you don’t even need me to shoot you in the foot. You’re literally killing your own project.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:27

as an author of a website, you can’t expect positive review after developing a web site for 3 years

yes you can

if you make something people will want to use/read/etc., people will say good things about your site within even days if it’s good enough

developing a quality website doesn’t take years; i could knock out a barebones blog design in a day, with or without the latest cutting-edge CSS

the content is what matters and you’ve proven that you can’t make good content, toilet paper man

tp (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:28 Re:

i could knock out a barebones blog design in a day

This is exactly what pirates would say. They can bring a barebones movie list up to a web page, and even put urls to the pirated .mp4 files in a day and according to torrentfreak article, that kind of movie list is getting 1/2 billion views. Ordinary sites that took 3 years to develop will have significant problems competing against expensive movies from famous directors. There’s only one problem: they didn’t create it themselves, but instead the popularity is riding on someone else’s work.

This concept where you "attach" your work to some existing popular works is the basis for damage awards in many existing laws, including patent law, copyright law, trademark law. This happens when movie fans are making batman figurines and are selling them like hot cakes in local market. Or if your cdr cloning shop is selling pirated cds with the original author’s trademarked marketing material. Or if your patented ideas are re-implemented to clone the existing products. All of them are examples of "attach to someone else’s popularity".

Basically the "someone else’s" is dangerous word in copyright laws.
This someone else’s is always to do with "we can do (some difficult task) in a day". You basically activated some very dangerous stuff with this message. I hope you handle licensing with care.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:29

This is exactly what pirates would say.

It’s also what sufficiently skilled web designers say. You think it takes them three years to design a good-looking blog, for themselves or for someone else? It doesn’t, toilet paper man. And like I said: I could knock out a barebones minimalist design in less than a day — hell, probably half a day, if I put my mind to it.

You could have the best looking website in the world and nobody would care if the content within sucks. So why do you think anyone would care about your site, Geocities-ass design or otherwise, if the content sucks and the person behind it would wipe out humanity with a snap of his fingers if he could?

PaulT (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:29 Re:

"This is exactly what pirates would say"

Pirates would say… that they’d spend a day creating original work? Either you’re not thinking this through or you think that web design is an inferior field to your own. Although judging by your site, I don’t think you’ve ever spoken to an actual web design professional, or if you did it was when Netscape was popular.

"Ordinary sites that took 3 years to develop will have significant problems competing"

Mainly because the staggering level of incompetence needed for it to take that long means that the end result probably isn’t going to be worth much.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:29 Re:

This happens when movie fans are making batman figurines and are selling them like hot cakes in local market

Plenty of fans make their own original material and share it. Some fans even get to do it while being paid.

I’m sorry you’re angry about being cucked by fans but begging the government for a mansion is not going to make you feel better, mostly because the government is not going to accede to your request.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:31 Re:

You’ve never actually made such a statement – but if such a statement were true, you certainly wouldn’t be here complaining about your lack of users helping out to build your mansion.

I’m going to go out on a limb and propose that this "government promise" to make your mansion is about as real as that "game developer in love with NDAs" claim you have: thoroughly fictional.

PaulT (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:27 Re:

"Sure, as an author of a website, you can’t expect positive review after developing a web site for 3 years."

I had a horror movie blog for some time (no longer active, as I do my tracking and reviewing on Letterboxd now). But in some time during the few years it was active, people had added it as a reference in both IMDB and Wikipedia, as well as the website of the director of one of the movies I reviewed, and I was contacted several times for promoting Dead Rising 2 and a couple of other horror-related titles.

It’s strange that all this happened for a site I was passively maintaining mainly for my own personal amusement, yet you’ve been actively working on a website that’s so potentially revolutionary without any attention.

"That would be unfair to the commercial websites that have millions of users who keep improving the site 24/7"

In the same way that my local tapas bar getting a good review is unfair to the Burger King round the corner, sure.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:27 Re:

That would be unfair to the commercial websites that have millions of users who keep improving the site 24/7.

No, that would be a semblance of an attempt to get Meshpage into the short list.

I have never seen someone want something so badly he’ll do everything he can to prevent himself from getting it.

tp (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:24 Re:

you have a better chance of dying and being resurrected in medieval times as a busty adventuress with a quirky wizard sidekick

Well, this might be doable, given that MPAA promised to implement this feature in their latest feature films. You know, all movies are actually predictions of the future, that if their process gets finetuned to its conclusion, that what features will be available. And when their films promise to send us back in time to medieval times, why wouldn’t you believe their promises. Powerful entity like MPAA might even be able to pull it off.

tp (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:26 Re:

You’re taking promises from the MPAA?

Yes, usually when those promises are fullfilled, there’s some catch in their implementation which makes their promises much less useful than what the original promise made it look like.

the MPAA promised to wipe out piracy. Multiple times

Yes, and when pirates start to use streaming services, the catch seems to be that content authors are still not being compensated.