Techdirt's Response To Roca Labs' Demand For A Retraction

from the threats-and-such dept

As you know, we’ve been reporting on a lawsuit involving Roca Labs against Consumer Opinion Corporation, better known as PissedConsumer. We recently received a letter from Roca Labs’ “independent general counsel” Paul Berger, demanding that we retract certain information related to some of those posts. Below you can find that letter as well as our response, helpfully put together by Jamie Williams at EFF.

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Companies: roca labs

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Comments on “Techdirt's Response To Roca Labs' Demand For A Retraction”

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64 Comments
SmozeFroze (profile) says:

Arkell v. Pressdram

This would have been better…

See: http://www.lettersofnote.com/2013/08/arkell-v-pressdram.html

Dear Sirs,

We acknowledge your letter of 29th April referring to Mr. J. Arkell. [Roca Labs]

We note that Mr Arkell’s [Roca Labs’] attitude to damages will be governed by the nature of our reply and would therefore be grateful if you would inform us what his attitude to damages would be, were he [Roca Labs] to learn that the nature of our reply is as follows: fuck off.

That One Guy (profile) says:

‘Please retract the following article in full

Yeah, they weren’t demanding a retraction, it looks like they were demanding the removal of the first four articles covering the fiasco in their entirety.

Of interest, and reminding me of the Ken/Popehat phrase ‘Vague threats are a mark of legal thuggery’, while they mentioned that the articles and what’s listed in them are ‘defamatory’, they don’t actually point to any specific examples of such, just giving a vague ‘This article and its contents are defamatory’. Given truth is a defense against defamation, it’s not hard to imagine why they’d avoid going into details.

Oh and talk about a blast from the past, they end the letter with ‘Please govern yourself accordingly’, talk about deja vu…

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re:

Indeed…this is also used transliterated in French Canada (Quebec), last time I saw this was on a letter from my ex ISP who wasn’t able to find new address in their system, to send me a final bill. Since they wouldn’t send proof (very long story)that I owed them 76 dollars, things escalated to a letter from a collection agency ending with these wonderful words “Veuillez vous gouverner en conséquence”. It sounds ominous even to people who does not get what it means lol.

Then I just sent them my rented cable modem when I was with them and never heard from collection agencies again.

Anonymous Coward says:

“It appears that these statements were made for no other purpose than to harass and defame Roca Labs.”

Hmm. Lawyer for litigious company can’t see negative comments about said company as having any other purpose but to give them an opportunity to pursue billable hours and possibly monetary settlements/judgments. I am Jack’s legal filing of a motion to be sarcastically surprised.

Ehud Gavron (profile) says:

Dear Mike Masnick and Techdirt staffers

My job has its interesting parts. One of the requirements is that I stay current on lots of entirely uninteresting things.

THANK YOU for giving me three or four breaks a day when I can enjoy your writing and seriously relax.

This series of articles (as well as the Scorpion writeups) have given me nothing but joy. If it weren’t for you guys, and Ken White, and Marc Randazza… what a joyless world it would be.

I wish you a wonderful weekend.

Regards,

Ehud Gavron
Tucson AZ

Anonymous Coward says:

Roca Labs is desperately trying to force a cone of silence over each and every customer that discovers that Roca Labs’ product is not only a specious remedy for their weight issues, but a potential cause of additional health problems. Plaintiff, desperate to sell as many of its tubs of goo to the public as it can before regulatory agencies come knocking does its best to bully its former customers into silence. “

Please provide us with an independent verification of this factual statement or retract the statement.

OK.

The article said that the filing said this. The filing did say this. The article was therefore accurate. Independent verification can be obtained by the copy you already have of the filings. If you want a retraction of what’s in the filings, perhaps you should do what you’ve already apparently done and ask opposing counsel to retract it, even though that’s still kind of ridiculous.

Oh, you wanted verification of the underlying claims? For that, you can refer to your OWN filings, where you admit that you do not allow your consumers to publish anything negative about you or your products in any forum. Sounds like a “cone of silence” to me. As far as the “bully its former customers into silence” claim goes, we have Roca Labs vs Alice King, where you sue a former customer for her negative comments. I don’t think you dispute the general idea that you want to “to sell as many of [your] tubs of goo to the public as [you] can”, although you might not like your products being called “tubs of goo”. As far as the “regulatory agencies” go, certainly you have your factories inspected every once in a while, so they do occasionally “come knocking”, right?

If you were interested in a retraction based on an actual mistake of fact, you would point out the actual mistake of fact. For example, if you factories were overseas and therefore not subject to any knocking regulatory agencies, you could say so. Or if you had one designated customer who you allowed to make negative comments without repercussions, you could point out that the phrase “each and every” was not quite true. Or perhaps you could point out that no company who actually wanted to stay in business long enough to sell as much of its product as possible would have terms of service like yours. Or perhaps your understanding of the Streisand Effect was such that you did not believe that your actions would actually silence anyone. Who knows? We certainly don’t if you don’t tell us.

Anonymous Coward says:

Sorry - what?!?!

Is he really saying what I think he’s saying here?

“in publishing the articles without attempting to verify the alleged facts in the pleadings…”

I thought that verifying the facts was the job of the court? Is he claiming that Techdirt has the responsibility to decide the outcome of a pending case before a judge has ruled? Or perhaps he’s trying to claim that it’s improper to report on a case that hasn’t been decided yet?

Just what the hell is he trying to claim here?

Carrie says:

I would have written the letter differently.

Dear Roca,

We believe you have failed to take account of two elementary facts. One, it’s almost legally impossible to defame a corporation, because courts assume that part of the privilege of doing business is the burden of being subjected to criticism. Two, America has this thing called a “Constitution” which includes something known as “the First Amendment.”

Free Speakingly Yours,

Techdirt

Nate Cardozo (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3 UPL

It absolutely applies to us.

“(a) two or more lawyers whose activities constitute the practice of law, and who share its profits,expenses, and liabilities;”

Yep. Nonprofit but yep.

“(c) a division, department, office, or group within a business entity, which includes more than one lawyer who performs legal services for the business entity;”

Yep. 501(c)(3)s are business entities.

serge says:

Re: Re: Re:3 UPL

You evidentially haven’t conducted research into the EFF either, it basically saved computer cryptography in the ’90s via a lawsuit and has filed lawsuits in relation to digital rights ever since, amongst other things, do you seriously think it would be able to persist in that if it were not permitted to by law? I don’t mean to sound hostile but I looked up “UPL” and the second result or so (on Duckduckgo, I don’t know about google) brought me to a powerpoint where UPL is defined and it was immediately clear that the EFF is allowed to practice law and should be obvious just by logical deduction.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:3 UPL

I can see how you might make that mistake, in reading the letter. The letter is quite weak and milquetoasty. Lets face it, if the author of the letter was a paid lawyer, he would have at least put some more strength into the letter. The way it looks now is “oh, pweeze don’t sue us, we are just widdwle and afwaid!”

How about telling Burgher that he has no case for all the stupid reasons he has no case. What is the “defamation” here? What is the reason for his letter in the first place? Is he really that stupid?

The demand deserved a Ken White style “snort my taint” letter. Something that showed that TD would fight and fight hard if he did not back off. If I got that reply, it would tell me that TD did not have the money for a real lawyer, so it got some low level do-nada at EFF to write a letter that took 30 seconds. If that letter gets followed up by a lawsuit, TD is going to fold like a cheap suit. It might not, it might fight, but that letter just screams “submissive”.

Peter says:

A note on Mr. Berger's omission and confusing pontification

Mr. Berger’s letter is poorly written because it contains a certain omission and one confusing aspect. A key paragraph:

For example, on September 29, 2014 you published an article Roca Labs Threatens To Sue All Three Former Customers Who Provided Evidence Against Roca in PissedConsumer Case from the the-ultimate-in-sleazy dept. This article contains numerous false, defamatory and malicious statements about Roca Labs. It appears that these statements were made for no other purpose than to harass and defame Roca Labs. Perhaps the true indication of you[] yellow journalism is that you fail to indicate that Mr. Randazza made a similar motion to the Court on September 22, 2104 [sic], which was denied by the Court on September 23, 2014.

The omission bit

If there really were “numerous false, defamatory and malicious statements about Roca Labs” in the cited article, then Mr. Berger should have enumerated these statements and shown how they satisfy the conditions of defamation and malice. It is a glaring omission that no such enumeration or showing has been provided by Mr. Berger.

The confusing bit

With the last sentence of the quote above, Mr. Berger makes a comparative claim that something in TechDirt’s article is supposed to be similar to Mr. Randazza’s motion filed on September 22. But Mr. Berger does not specify what that something in TechDirt’s article is. It is just downright confusing; it is not clear what Mr. Berger is suggesting by referencing that the Court promptly denied Mr. Randazza’s motion.

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