Techdirt's Response To Roca Labs' Demand For A Retraction
from the threats-and-such dept
As you know, we’ve been reporting on a lawsuit involving Roca Labs against Consumer Opinion Corporation, better known as PissedConsumer. We recently received a letter from Roca Labs’ “independent general counsel” Paul Berger, demanding that we retract certain information related to some of those posts. Below you can find that letter as well as our response, helpfully put together by Jamie Williams at EFF.
Filed Under: paul berger
Companies: roca labs


Comments on “Techdirt's Response To Roca Labs' Demand For A Retraction”
I looked,
But I couldn’t find any TechDirt articles published on September 22, 2104.
Re: I looked,
Are you implying that Roca Labs does not have time travel capability?
That’s defamatory libelslander!
Re: Re: I looked,
They obviously hold the patent on flux capacitors.
Re: Re: Re: I looked,
So how should Mike proceed, in order to prevent a universe destroying paradox? Should he schedule an article to be posted posthumously in 90 years? Or is that exactly what they’d like him to do, in order to change the future?
Re: Re: Re:2 I looked,
it’s best just to go along with it lest we create a paradox. nasty business that. doomed timelines are not fun for anybody.
Re: Re: I looked,
That would be prior restraint which would be of questionable legality.
Re: I looked,
Here it is:
https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20140922/13125328599/pissedconsumer-fights-back-against-roca-labs-attempt-to-silence-customer-complaints.shtml
Re: Re: I looked,
Obviously that can’t be the article. The fourth paragraph of the demand letter clearly begins:
In your September 22, 2104 article
… and Techdirt would not have filed that in a link to https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20140922/etc.
Give Mike a little credit for indexing the articles correctly.
The most remarkable thing here is that the EFF’s counsel resisted the urge to file the response I would have sent:
“Dear Mr. Berger and Roca Labs, Inc.:
lol.
love,eff and techdirt and mike”
In crayon, naturally.
Re: Re:
It’s not like being legally right matters anymore. Look how badly the constitution has been eroded. Infinite copy protection lengths due to retroactive extensions, unwarranted seizures,etc… The law no longer matters.
Re: Re:
STHAAAAP STEALING MY CRAYONS!
Arkell v. Pressdram
This would have been better…
See: http://www.lettersofnote.com/2013/08/arkell-v-pressdram.html
—
Dear Sirs,
We acknowledge your letter of 29th April referring to Mr. J. Arkell. [Roca Labs]
We note that Mr Arkell’s [Roca Labs’] attitude to damages will be governed by the nature of our reply and would therefore be grateful if you would inform us what his attitude to damages would be, were he [Roca Labs] to learn that the nature of our reply is as follows: fuck off.
Re: Arkell v. Pressdram
“Please refer to the response given in Arkell vs Pressdram.” is how Private Eye and others used it.
Re: Arkell v. Pressdram
Pressdram’s response is always appropriate to these thuggery letters
So too is Ken White’s famous (or is that infamous) response of “snort my taint”. 😉
‘Please retract the following article in full‘
Yeah, they weren’t demanding a retraction, it looks like they were demanding the removal of the first four articles covering the fiasco in their entirety.
Of interest, and reminding me of the Ken/Popehat phrase ‘Vague threats are a mark of legal thuggery’, while they mentioned that the articles and what’s listed in them are ‘defamatory’, they don’t actually point to any specific examples of such, just giving a vague ‘This article and its contents are defamatory’. Given truth is a defense against defamation, it’s not hard to imagine why they’d avoid going into details.
Oh and talk about a blast from the past, they end the letter with ‘Please govern yourself accordingly’, talk about deja vu…
Re: Re:
Legal Thuggery… What a nice turn of phrase to accurately describe this …err… I hesitate to call it a legal business and it’s actions.
Re: Re:
Bingo. “Vagueness in legal threats is the hallmark of meritless thuggery”. The failure to identify so much as a single statement that is allegedly defamatory means that this appears to be nothing but an attempt at intimidating TD into silence.
Re: Re: Re:
Oh if that was it, they clearly did not do their research before unleashing the lawyers…
Re: Re:
Indeed…this is also used transliterated in French Canada (Quebec), last time I saw this was on a letter from my ex ISP who wasn’t able to find new address in their system, to send me a final bill. Since they wouldn’t send proof (very long story)that I owed them 76 dollars, things escalated to a letter from a collection agency ending with these wonderful words “Veuillez vous gouverner en conséquence”. It sounds ominous even to people who does not get what it means lol.
Then I just sent them my rented cable modem when I was with them and never heard from collection agencies again.
“It appears that these statements were made for no other purpose than to harass and defame Roca Labs.”
Hmm. Lawyer for litigious company can’t see negative comments about said company as having any other purpose but to give them an opportunity to pursue billable hours and possibly monetary settlements/judgments. I am Jack’s legal filing of a motion to be sarcastically surprised.
How about this...
“I give you the finger… and you fuck off already.”
Seriously – did they expect this to work and not increase their douchebaggery points?
The phrase "pick your battles" comes to mind.
Throwing down against TechDirt and the EFF over improper speech is just a really, really bad idea.
It does serve to illustrate the mental state of the person making the decisions, however. And that state is not pretty.
Seriously?!
Dear Mike Masnick and Techdirt staffers
My job has its interesting parts. One of the requirements is that I stay current on lots of entirely uninteresting things.
THANK YOU for giving me three or four breaks a day when I can enjoy your writing and seriously relax.
This series of articles (as well as the Scorpion writeups) have given me nothing but joy. If it weren’t for you guys, and Ken White, and Marc Randazza… what a joyless world it would be.
I wish you a wonderful weekend.
Regards,
Ehud Gavron
Tucson AZ
Confused
I thought you had pass an intelligence test of some kind before being admitted law school. How did Roca’s lawyer get away with not passing that test?
Re: Confused
Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Re: Confused
Because you don’t have to be a fool to be a lawyer, just a fool of a client with billable hours.
There’s a whole lot of inferiority complex going on there.
Paul Berger, I have some advice. You should clean the scan window on your fax machine.
What I find interesting about the 2 leatters
is the quality of them.
The second appears to have been written by a professional.
OK.
The article said that the filing said this. The filing did say this. The article was therefore accurate. Independent verification can be obtained by the copy you already have of the filings. If you want a retraction of what’s in the filings, perhaps you should do what you’ve already apparently done and ask opposing counsel to retract it, even though that’s still kind of ridiculous.
Oh, you wanted verification of the underlying claims? For that, you can refer to your OWN filings, where you admit that you do not allow your consumers to publish anything negative about you or your products in any forum. Sounds like a “cone of silence” to me. As far as the “bully its former customers into silence” claim goes, we have Roca Labs vs Alice King, where you sue a former customer for her negative comments. I don’t think you dispute the general idea that you want to “to sell as many of [your] tubs of goo to the public as [you] can”, although you might not like your products being called “tubs of goo”. As far as the “regulatory agencies” go, certainly you have your factories inspected every once in a while, so they do occasionally “come knocking”, right?
If you were interested in a retraction based on an actual mistake of fact, you would point out the actual mistake of fact. For example, if you factories were overseas and therefore not subject to any knocking regulatory agencies, you could say so. Or if you had one designated customer who you allowed to make negative comments without repercussions, you could point out that the phrase “each and every” was not quite true. Or perhaps you could point out that no company who actually wanted to stay in business long enough to sell as much of its product as possible would have terms of service like yours. Or perhaps your understanding of the Streisand Effect was such that you did not believe that your actions would actually silence anyone. Who knows? We certainly don’t if you don’t tell us.
Party pooper
Oh, come on. The high road is so boring.
So how many more stories are out there about rocaslabs , you could run a new one everyday , sooner or later they’ll run out of printer ink.
Why is part of the PDF blacked out?
Were other people at Techdirt named in the letter who wish to remain anonymous?
If this defamation troll makes good on the threat and goes ahead with a lawsuit, let’s hope Techdirt’s legal defense fund accepts Bitcoin.
Re: Re:
Yes, why is there a redaction?
Re: Re: Re:
Just looked- the blacked out part is Mike Masnick’s address.
Re: Re: Re: Re:
The home address of sir Masnick is already public. Why would he censor it? Or did some of the government agencies come in and sponsor the ink?
Re: Re: Re:2 Re:
Google’s ‘transparancy report’ blocks out the address of the accuser.
Techdirt’s ‘transparancy report’ blocks out the address of the accused.
Sorry - what?!?!
Is he really saying what I think he’s saying here?
I thought that verifying the facts was the job of the court? Is he claiming that Techdirt has the responsibility to decide the outcome of a pending case before a judge has ruled? Or perhaps he’s trying to claim that it’s improper to report on a case that hasn’t been decided yet?
Just what the hell is he trying to claim here?
It is truly amazing, how these thugs dig their heels in. What did they think would happen when they sent this threat?
Maybe we’ve been wrong all these years…Maybe goodevil is dumb.
I’ve deleted myself
Make that good will always triumph because evil is dumb.
Re: Re:
Yes, evil is dumb. And killing is badong.
I would have written the letter differently.
Dear Roca,
We believe you have failed to take account of two elementary facts. One, it’s almost legally impossible to defame a corporation, because courts assume that part of the privilege of doing business is the burden of being subjected to criticism. Two, America has this thing called a “Constitution” which includes something known as “the First Amendment.”
Free Speakingly Yours,
Techdirt
Rule of Holes
Looks like this guy’s forgotten the first rule of holes.
TD re Roca
http://yourlisten.com/xmoonbombx/bugs-he-dont-know-me-very-well-do-he
What an (ignorant collection of) ultra-maroon(s their lawyers must be).
Roca Labs’ “attorney” Paul Berger seems a little too close to the pediphile doctor that works for the place. How much do you want to wager that he goes the way of Charles Carreon?
Reading both lawyer’s letters, I don’t think this issue is resolved at all.
Re: Re:
No, it does not look resolved. EFF is going down hill.
Surprised to read the letter on EFF letterhead saying that it is representing this site. I had expected to read a letter where the individual associated with the EFF identified herself a representing the site as the former approach raises UPL Iissues that can divert attention away from the issue at hand.
Re: UPL
I’m not sure what you are trying to say, I assume the acronym stands for Unauthroized practice of law however I don’t understand why that has anything to do with this.
Re: Re: UPL
The EFF is not a law firm, and it is not at all clear from the letter if the writer is representing the EFF or the site.
Re: Re: Re: UPL
What makes you say EFF isn’t a law firm? We (I’m an EFF lawyer) certainly are. We’re not your average firm to be sure, and we’re not ONLY a law firm, but from a legal ethics perspective we’re a nonprofit law firm and represent clients as such.
Re: Re: Re:2 UPL
I tend to associate law firms with the definition set forth in Rule 1-100, which does not seem to apply to the EFF. Importantly, I have not conducted any research of state bar opinions to explore the definition in depth.
Re: Re: Re:3 UPL
It absolutely applies to us.
“(a) two or more lawyers whose activities constitute the practice of law, and who share its profits,expenses, and liabilities;”
Yep. Nonprofit but yep.
“(c) a division, department, office, or group within a business entity, which includes more than one lawyer who performs legal services for the business entity;”
Yep. 501(c)(3)s are business entities.
Re: Re: Re:3 UPL
You evidentially haven’t conducted research into the EFF either, it basically saved computer cryptography in the ’90s via a lawsuit and has filed lawsuits in relation to digital rights ever since, amongst other things, do you seriously think it would be able to persist in that if it were not permitted to by law? I don’t mean to sound hostile but I looked up “UPL” and the second result or so (on Duckduckgo, I don’t know about google) brought me to a powerpoint where UPL is defined and it was immediately clear that the EFF is allowed to practice law and should be obvious just by logical deduction.
Re: Re: Re:3 UPL
I can see how you might make that mistake, in reading the letter. The letter is quite weak and milquetoasty. Lets face it, if the author of the letter was a paid lawyer, he would have at least put some more strength into the letter. The way it looks now is “oh, pweeze don’t sue us, we are just widdwle and afwaid!”
How about telling Burgher that he has no case for all the stupid reasons he has no case. What is the “defamation” here? What is the reason for his letter in the first place? Is he really that stupid?
The demand deserved a Ken White style “snort my taint” letter. Something that showed that TD would fight and fight hard if he did not back off. If I got that reply, it would tell me that TD did not have the money for a real lawyer, so it got some low level do-nada at EFF to write a letter that took 30 seconds. If that letter gets followed up by a lawsuit, TD is going to fold like a cheap suit. It might not, it might fight, but that letter just screams “submissive”.
Re: Re: Re:4 UPL
“TD is going to fold like a cheap suit.”
Unlikely. Techdirt has been around since the last century, and still going strong.
Re: Re: Re:4 UPL
To me the letter sounded more like “your threats are so pathetic that you are not even worth the time it takes to school you properly, so I’ll just point out that you obviously don’t know the law and leave it at that”.
Basically the worst insult a Klingon lawyer could give someone. 😉
Re: Re: Re:4 UPL
There are times that opponents are worthy of a world-class beatdown using all of the snark and sarcasm available.
This is not one of those times. This is not one of those opponents. Paul Berger is an inferior little man, and is unworthy of anything other than contemptuous dismissal.
A note on Mr. Berger's omission and confusing pontification
Mr. Berger’s letter is poorly written because it contains a certain omission and one confusing aspect. A key paragraph:
The omission bit
If there really were “numerous false, defamatory and malicious statements about Roca Labs” in the cited article, then Mr. Berger should have enumerated these statements and shown how they satisfy the conditions of defamation and malice. It is a glaring omission that no such enumeration or showing has been provided by Mr. Berger.
The confusing bit
With the last sentence of the quote above, Mr. Berger makes a comparative claim that something in TechDirt’s article is supposed to be similar to Mr. Randazza’s motion filed on September 22. But Mr. Berger does not specify what that something in TechDirt’s article is. It is just downright confusing; it is not clear what Mr. Berger is suggesting by referencing that the Court promptly denied Mr. Randazza’s motion.
Re: A note on Mr. Berger's omission and confusing pontification
Glad you said this. Thought it was just me…
something something of holes, STOP DIGGING.
It is sad they couldn’t be bothered to Google Mike and come across this little thing called the ‘Streisand Effect’.
Here lemme help your ignorance be enlightened…
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisand_effect
Queuing up the legal defense fund beg-a-thon in 4…3…2…1…
Go EFF
Thank you EFF for being awesome. It’s a very small list of people who actually give a shit about the Internet, and the EFF, PopeHat and Techdirt are at the top of that list. Being the good guys must be a mostly thankless task, so thank you!
Private Eye had the right answer to this sort of thing
“We refer you to the reply given in the case of Arkell v. Pressdram”