Windows 8's Arbitrary App Certification Rules Could Block Skyrim And Other Huge Games
from the arbitrary-guidelines-are-the-best dept
We have already mentioned that some game developers were having a hard time accepting Windows 8 as a viable gaming platform. The primary concern is with Microsoft’s insistence on walling off its Metro UI and accompanying Windows Store. When a distribution system is walled off, new restrictions come along that limit the type of content that can be made available. As application and game developers learn more about the restrictions Microsoft plans to implement, their concern is growing.
Take for instance the recent discovery that Microsoft plans to limit the games made available through its Windows Store and Metro UI. In a broader piece on what a closed Windows 8 platform means for developers, Casey Muratori highlights one of the strict and ultimately contradictory restrictions on game content. Using the 2011 Game of the Year, Skyrim, as a hypothetical Windows 8 candidate, Casey asks the question, would it be allowed on the Windows store and Metro UI.
Because no software can ship on this future platform without it going through the Windows Store, the team that built Skyrim would have to send it to Microsoft for certification. Then Microsoft would tell them if they could ship it.
Do you know what Microsoft’s answer would be?
I do. It would be “no”.
This is not speculative; it is certain. Skyrim is a game for adults. It has a PEGI rating of 18. If you read the Windows 8 app certification requirements you will find, in section 5.1:
“Your app must not contain adult content, and metadata must be appropriate for everyone. Apps with a rating over PEGI 16, ESRB MATURE, or that contain content that would warrant such a rating, are not allowed.”
And that's the end of it. No Skyrim for the Windows Store, unless of course the developers go back and remove all the PEGI 18-rated content.
Unfortunately, Casey does not highlight the contradictory nature of this arbitrary rule — what if a game has both an M rating by the ESRB and an 18 rating by PEGI, as Skyrim does. What will Microsoft do? Will it block the game entirely, region-restrict it to only ESRB regions or make an exception to its own rule and allow it for all the world? These are the kinds of questions that frustrate developers. Apple has had its fair share of arbitrary enforcement of content restrictions and you would think that Microsoft would at least attempt to learn from that example.
To further highlight the problem with this restriction, Casey lists four games that are in competition to be 2012's Game of the Year. Of those four games, none would be allowed on Windows 8 for the same reason, they got an ESRB M rating and a PEGI 18 rating. Microsoft has set itself up to exclude some of the best selling games of the future. Hardly a way to attract the support of developers.
Filed Under: certification, closed platforms, games, restrictions, windows
Companies: microsoft
Comments on “Windows 8's Arbitrary App Certification Rules Could Block Skyrim And Other Huge Games”
I hope Microsoft keeps pushing for its walled garden. Because it’ll be a shoot in the foot as developers will start looking at Linux or focus more on mobile open platforms such as Android.
The only reason I still use Microsoft Windows is because the games I play are not made for Linux and honestly, as developed as it has become, emulation generally still sucks.
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I still use Windows solely because of games. Nothing else keeps me tied to Microsoft products.
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Well, looks like that won’t be a problem much longer.
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The only problem with that statement is that developers will never develop a mobile game that looks and feels as good as a game built for the PC or a console. No one is going to eat up a couple of gigs of their phone’s storage for a single game. There’s a tool for every job and a phone is not a high-end gaming machine.
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That’s not true. Going forward, phones are going to improve. That’s like saying “no one would ever install a 30 gigabyte game on a PC” a few years ago.
Android doesn’t only have to run on phones either. There is someone building a ‘console’ with android.
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Last I heard was Ouya.
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Ever played Mass Effect for mobile? (I admit I’m not sure what was the name) I decided not to buy any other portable console (such as DS/PSP) after playing that on a Galaxy S3. Also, my tablet alone has 64GB (32 internal and 32 microsd).
I think Microsoft is doing it wrong.
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Disagree. At least for my own part I have no reservation installing and playing 2GB games on my 8GB mobile. If you use Google Play, Amazon or stand on line for apps, neither should you. Cloud is near ubiquitous.
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I’ve got 32 gigs on my phone, and a couple of really huge (2+ gig) games. No problem here.
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Hmm, I have “Super Monkey Ball” on my phone…and yes, its eating up a couple gigs. Your statement is flawed, sir!
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With people becoming used to different interfaces and user experiences and windows essentially copying off of others (metro looks an awful lot like a dozen other Android UIs and Ubuntu’s Unity UI) and the fact that more and more everyday stuff can be done through a web browser, developers may start looking at linux with more interest. Windows PC’s aren’t going to be “high end gaming machines” any more either with those idiots controlling what type of games can be on them. The PC gaming enterprise has succeeded in spite of Microsoft, not because of them, and they probably don’t care since they’d rather you bought an X-Box anyway.
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I only use Windows for one game (Football Manager) and Netflix. I use Linux for everything else.
Re: Response to: Ninja on Oct 19th, 2012 @ 11:11am
Yeah, that’ll happen becase everyone knows how easy Linux is to get going right out the box. And installing additional software and drivers is such a breeze.
Re: Re: Response to: Ninja on Oct 19th, 2012 @ 11:11am
cant tell if sarcastic or has actaully used linux in he past 2 years
Re: Re: Re: Response to: Ninja on Oct 19th, 2012 @ 11:11am
I think he is serious… because he thinks linux comes in a box…
Re: Re: Re:2 Response to: Ninja on Oct 19th, 2012 @ 11:11am
when really..it comes outside the box.
Re: Re: Re:3 Response to: Ninja on Oct 19th, 2012 @ 11:11am
heh! You said “box”!
Re: Re: Re: Response to: Ninja on Oct 19th, 2012 @ 11:11am
The ‘tone’ of his post sound sarcastic. Running from that assumption, I’ll counter by saying, as someone who recently switched to dual booting Windows/Linux a few months ago, Linux (or at least Ubuntu; fans of other distros should feel free to hate on me as you will) is extremely easy to install, most hardware is supported, the only exception being some wireless cards. And more and more software is being distributed in an easy to install format.
Heck, you can do a “WUBI” install of Ubuntu or one of its variants to try it out. No messing with file systems or partitions or anything like that; it installs and uninstalls like a Windows program. Just restart and pick Ubuntu from the list of installed OSes.
Re: Re: Re:2 Response to: Ninja on Oct 19th, 2012 @ 11:11am
Microsoft is working to make that harder with the UEFI Secure Boot requirements on Windows 8-certified hardware.
Re: Re: Re:3 Response to: Ninja on Oct 19th, 2012 @ 11:11am
That’s a concern, yes, but it seems the various Linux developers are coming up with solutions. And hopefully getting non-Windows 8 certified hardware will remain a viable option. Hel, if Win8 does bad enough, not offering a non-certified, non-Secure Boot option might be a dangerous move for harware manufacturers.
Re: Re: Re:2 Response to: Ninja on Oct 19th, 2012 @ 11:11am
Ubuntu WUBI runs like a dog (on my slightly old laptop) because it sits on top of Windows. Better to stick with dual boot if you still need Windows.
Re: Re: Re:3 Response to: Ninja on Oct 19th, 2012 @ 11:11am
Oh, don’t I know it. I didn’t mean to say you could use it -instead- of dual booting. Just pointing out how easy it is to try it out without making any major commitments or fiddling with partition management software that an average user might be inexperienced with.
Re: Re: Re:4 Response to: Ninja on Oct 19th, 2012 @ 11:11am
Wait what? WUBI doesn’t sit on top of Windows. It sits on a Windows Partition, and only as a hard disk image. Even if there’s a performance hit, it’s not the same thing at all. You actually have to reboot to run WUBI.
It does use dual booting regardless!
Re: Re: Response to: Ninja on Oct 19th, 2012 @ 11:11am
Actually, it is extremely easy to install additional software. Synaptics package manager (for ubuntu based distros), and APT in general (Debian based distros) are easier than hunting down the program I want from a non centralized database.
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I think MS is forgetting a lot of computer history with this decision.
The PC became ubiquitous as a platform precisely because it was open. Anyone could build on it or build parts for it, unlike the Macintosh and some other early systems. Even MS was a beneficiary of this.
Walling it off is a big mistake long term. Games drive a huge portion of modern desktop sales to consumers and they’d be severely limiting their future. The walled off approach works pretty well for consoles b/c there are no viable alternatives but with a PC you can run about any OS of your choosing. Especially with linux support on Steam, you already have some movement towards other operating systems.
And look at the massive success that Games for Windows is…(I hope the sarcasm came through in that statement)
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I think MS is forgetting a lot of computer history with this decision.
I think MS is looking at the iPhone/iPad and thinking “We should do that!”
The walled off approach works pretty well for consoles b/c there are no viable alternatives but with a PC you can run about any OS of your choosing.
Yes, MS is working hard to close that loophole via their new secure boot technology.
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Yes, lock ’em in then make ’em pay!
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Except that Crapple products are targeted at people who like to press shiny buttons and play “angry birds” and are often surprised to find out their ipad has one of “those computer thingys” in it to make it go, while PC’s are purchased mainly by people who either take them apart and rework them for gaming or actually use them for productive work. The markets are vastly different despite some overlap and the PC’s core market won’t respond well to this. As to Microsofts “secure boot” crap? The available systems so far can have that option disabled in the BIOS and I can still buy state of the art brand new motherboards with PS/2 and serial ports on them, because there’s a market for them. The same will occur with processors and non secure boot mother boards too. look at the tiny inexpensive PC’s coming out now that can connect directly to an HDTV and don’t have any Intel parts in them. Wherever there’s a market and money to be made, someone will fill it.
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The only reason I still use Microsoft Windows is because the games I play are not made for Linux and honestly, as developed as it has become, emulation generally still sucks.
It’s funny that you say that because every time I bring up the issue of games and Linux, I’m told that absolutely everything runs perfectly under WINE.
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“It’s funny that you say that because every time I bring up the issue of games and Linux, I’m told that absolutely everything runs perfectly under WINE.”
Erm, whoever tells you that is lying. There’s a huge number of games that run perfectly well under WINE (as well as thousands that run under the likes of DOSBox and ScummVM), but only a fool would say “everything”.
Having said that, it’s improving every day, and there’s a lot of utilities that make it easier to run than ever before…
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Add to that Valve is releasing steam for Linux very soon….
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The misinformation and FUD around the Windows store is amazing. It’s like it’s cool to hate Microsoft so lets beat them up over something that is already on andriod phones, apple devices and likely eventually available on the OSX desktop as well.
First it is important to note that there are two versions of Windows 8. Windows RT is meant for ARM processors and will only feature the Windows app store. This is mainly due to the fact that legacy applications cannot be built to run on ARM processors. My understanding is like most mobile operating systems side-line installs without the app store will still be possible.
Then there is the full blown version of Windows 8 meant for the x86 processors. In this case the Windows store is a feature of the OS but is by no means the only way to get an application for the operating system. Traditional installs, steam, orgin etc are all still valid and can be used. This is no different than my cell phone where I might have a provider specific store with a limited catalog and then also have amazon app store and the web to get software.
You don’t have to use the app store for Windows 8, just like you don’t have to use the app store for apple or andriod systems, it’s just the built in default store. Why is this OK for everyone except Microsoft?
It seems to me the complaints are similar to the empty complaints during the days of having IE by default. Granted there were some technical issues that Microsoft was required to comply with but the core argument of many was that users won’t install alternate browsers so MS should not be allowed to include one. On the other end of that war now I would say that argument is hallow. So what else is there? What is the real problem here if the app store is optional and all other installation methods for software are still supported?
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Well, it’s different because we’re the PC gaming community, and for years Microsoft Windows has been a reliable (reliably mediocre, for sure, but reliable) supplier of the infrastructure needed for the kinds of games that the PC gaming community likes. When iOS and Android didn’t supply that, we didn’t much care for the same reasons we didn’t care a lot about the Xbox or PS3 or Wii walled gardens: they weren’t for us, so we mostly kept doing our own thing. But now our wheelhouse is under threat.
Vista doesnt look so bad now huh? LOL.
I think this is why Apple didn’t push for 100% on the mac app store. It realized that on an open production machine you can’t make that leap. It only works for the iphone and ipad because they started off as a walled garden.
Yay more tings to jailbreak!
I think its a terrible idea that Microsoft made their OS for smartphones basically its a terrible idea. Make a smartphone OS for smartphones and the regular OS for PC’s.
I feel like we are watching Windows committing slow motion suicide.
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As long as Outlook/Exchange is there Windows will never die, at least not for businesses.
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Outlook is terrible and lives only because of familiarity.
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I agree but businesses don’t like the unfamiliar and Outlook is so easy for end users. For that reason it is, unfortunately, going nowhere.
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Lotus notes is not even an option IMHO. I have to work with it now and its so horrid!
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Lotus notes is not even an option IMHO. I have to work with it now and its so horrid!
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That’s funny. I am forced to use Outlook every day and I have a lot of ways to describe it — but “easy for end users” is not even close to being one of them.
The closest I get to that is “pain in the ass”.
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I agree wholeheartedly.
I can’t count the number of times I have sworn at outlook due to its crappy design.
Its even worse as a sys admin for exchange as well which is another crapheap of software.
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No outlook is terrible, and lives on because the other enterprise e-mail/calendering/scheduling software is even worse. As it is I would still rather run outlook than stick my hand in a meat grinder, but I don’t run it on my own machines.
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I would opt for the meat grinder, and that is for both outlook and windows 8
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We are looking at jumping to google apps for our email as well as other services.
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Exactly right I totally agree after I’m finished reading here I do research for a Linux distro and bye bye Windows!
So glad I’ve begun to migrate my digital life to linux. Gabe was right. Win8 is a nightmare for anyone who wants to operate outside of this shitty app store.
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agreed, still a bit annoyed that unity 4 and steam for linux didnt go fully open beta yet
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Here’s what I don’t understand:
1. Steam works perfectly fine on Windows 8 RTM.
2. I highly doubt that the Microsoft store will even come close to competing with services like Steam, GoG, etc.
Personally, I prefer Windows 7, but I’m using a Mac Pro hooked up to my 55″ TV so it’s not exactly a touch screen. On something like the HP Envy x2, I might be swayed.
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This.
Now as for this “article” it feels a lot like something fox news would be spewing…
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What are you talking about? Gabe comes off as a moron because unless you’re writing “Metro” style apps that are going to be sold via the Microsoft Store then it’s business as usual. Steam won’t be effected in any way – it’s just FUD.
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Until windows 9 comes out and makes the desktop even more irrelevant, then Windows 10 hits and does away with the desktop completely leaving Steam out in the cold.
He’s not looking at where the puck is now, he’s looking at where the puck is going to be.
Even if the desktop doesn’t go away completely, its still better to prepare for the possibility rather than trust a single thing Microsoft says.
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And robotic spiders could be just jacking me into the Matrix in 10 years. Your point being?
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Guess what, microsoft does not care about locking down your petty end user experience. They build for business, any move that blocks out their biggest customers (corporate users) will not happen.
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read the whole article that this one references, THEN tell me it’s FUD! This is the first step…Microsoft is ALREADY referring to standard win32 code as “legacy”!
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Apple did the same with Carbon and Universal Applications. The last update even kills JavaScript on Safari. I’m not trying to be a jerk, but most developers should be working on 64bit applications now, unless you are doing specialized work that the hardware can’t use it. IE I’m sure there are people that still program in 16bit or 8bit for vending machines, automation, etc…
WoW64 is a stop gap measure that is going to eventually left to community support in order to implement. Nothing new there.
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I still develop 8-bit micros for all sorts of things.
32-bit ARM chips as well as 64-bit intel CPUs.
Horses for courses bud!
Re: Response to: Anonymous Coward on Oct 19th, 2012 @ 11:53am
Thanks for the advice!! that’s just what I wanted to know how shitty the windows 8 was… and how did it compare to the Android or Linux market?? so lyrics is the next best thing to Android?? because I am about to upgrade to a touch screen computer.. and I definitely want to stay close to the Android like market
In Microsoft’s effort to jump on the Mobile bandwagon, they seem to have fallen off the PC one and goten run over by Google and Apple
with a bit of luck, companies that have or are getting the attitude that everyone has to have their stuff, but can only use it how they are told will be falling by the wayside. no one should be in the position of having bought something not then be able to do whatever they like with it, even if that means selling it on. it happens with everything else including the most expensive items on the planet. why should it be different for little plastic disks with information on?
How about we just decide that not everything is for children?
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But, but, but… Wont someone think of me?
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Oh for the most part I think the children are fine about a lot of the stuff we make a big deal over…. however, clearly, not everything is for parents.
"Contradiction" ?
“Your app must not contain adult content, and metadata must be appropriate for everyone. Apps with a rating over PEGI 16, ESRB MATURE, or that contain content that would warrant such a rating, are not allowed.”
“Casey does not highlight the contradictory nature of this arbitrary rule — what if a game has both an M rating by the ESRB and an 18 rating by PEGI […] ?”
There’s no contradiction there, because it doesn’t say anything about apps without those ratings. Does the app have a rating over PEGI 16 ? Then it’s banned. Does it have a rating over ESRB MATURE ? Banned. Does it have a rating of exactly ESRB MATURE ? Then it gets a pass there, so let’s look at the other factors to see whether it gets banned on any of those…
If I have a bridge and say “no Fords or SUVs may cross my bridge”, there’s no contradiction just because you have a Ford that isn’t an SUV…
Re: "Contradiction" ?
I agree. Lists like the rating list default to “inclusive or”.
Major FUD alert
Windows 8 RT = tablet
Windows 8/Windows 8 Pro = desktop & laptop
These rules only apply to apps that are released through the app store, which are those that run on the tablets (Windows 8 RT) and the “metro” side of Windows 8 (Windows 8 and Windows 8 Pro).
However, Windows 8 (non-tablet) devices are not restricted to applications from the app store. You can buy, download, and install anything that you can on Windows 7 through all the same, traditional retail channels, and it runs exactly the same (in my completely non-scientific experience, even a little better). I even have Steam installed on my laptop running Windows 8.
Microsoft is not (yet) getting rid of the desktop and the freedom to install on it what you please.
Re: Major FUD alert
If that’s true it’s still an issue, they could have a huge compatibility heads up all over their platforms….
Re: Re: Major FUD alert
It is true, and, as you say, doesn’t really make the decision much better.
Re: Major FUD alert
Windows 8 is also a tablet OS. Of the x86 variety, and they’re not restricted to “metro” apps either.
I haven’t heard MS refer to it as windows 8 RT. Just Windows RT.
Re: Major FUD alert
Agree with you there but the monkey dancer in charge probably start monking around if it gets any traction.
Re: Major FUD alert
Your post is not full of histrionic hand waving and high-pitched frightened squealing, so probably not appropriate for this site.
You also have to declare if your software uses encryption and if it does you have to register your software with the US Government even if you want to exclude the US market. And i am pretty sure they will ask you to implement back doors. Of course there are exceptions if your apps only use encryption for stuff like DRM or authentication.
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I hadn’t heard about this. Is this a US law special for Win 8? There’s normally no such governmental registration requirement.
Until you can run (custom) business applications on a tablet, it will remain just a toy. I had to wait 10 years before laptops could run SQL Server – it will be a while before tablets are actually useful to anyone other than executives and gamers.
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The Motion Computing M1200 was way ahead of its time and only lacked a touchscreen to become mainstream. No special anything, just a slate style tablet running WindowsXP. Everything worked as a PC should.
http://pencomputing.com/frames/tpc_motion1200.html
Some things were too ahead of their time.
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Windows 8 on x86 tablets will run every application available to windows 8 on a comparably specced laptop.
Its the same OS.
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Tow problems with tablets for serious use:
1)Keyboard
2)Screen size
It’s time for game developers to move on to Linux. Ditch MS and their idiotic lock in.
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Game developers who don’t want to make money should do this.
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Not necessarily. This could be done pretty easily without requiring the user to install a different OS.
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Did you forget that Android is Linux?
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Yeah the Humble Bundle certainly shows that Linux users don’t want to pay for things…
Wait, no, it consistently shows them paying more on average than Windows or Mac users. What was your point?
I think saying that it ‘blocks’ skyrim is a tad bit misleading in the title. It only blocks it from the Windows store, not from being installed.
I understand this is a very picky semantic argument to make, but it’s an important one to keep in mind as devices become more and more walled-in and the possibility of actually having a situation where unauthorized software is in no way able to be ran on a target platform is on the horizon for many consumers.
Any gamer in his right mind will not get Windows 8. PC gamers will soon need to leave Windows and we will need some sort of gaming oriented Linux build, maybe one made by Valve…
This is a case of walled garden envy
Apparently MS doesn’t understand why it has been so successful and why Apple has been successful. It is abandoning its openness for the walled garden like Apple. While it has worke d for Apple so far, I don’t believe it will work much longer. It will not work for MS. If they close it off, I will definitely seek alternatives such as Android. I already have an Android tablet and phone, but was hoping my laptop and my tablet could be replaced with a Surface tablet. Maybe even get a Win 8 phone. If they lock it down, they can forget me as a customer.
Re: This is a case of walled garden envy
Dont. The Surface ARM is costing $500 without the keyboard add-on. I can get a fully functional notebook/netbook for that cost.
MS really aren’t learning the lessons of Apple.
Re: Re: This is a case of walled garden envy
Also it uses secure in the mode that locks out othre operating systems.
Re: This is a case of walled garden envy
I hope you’re right, and the walled garden will soon be passe. My concern is that the app stores are too easy and convenient to not resonate with a lot of people. As long as we can maintain a niche market, and bastion of openness, I’m OK. Analogy warning! I’m fine with the mass market as long as I’m not forced to by a Honda with an automatic transmission myself.
Who cares. It won’t be available on the “Windows Store” or get a metro interface. I can still buy it on steam or in a retail store and install it on Windows.
Let them flail about like idiots and just ignore their stupid store. It’s not like I was looking forward to shopping there or something.
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I am already bypassing the metro interface and uh, I don’t miss it.
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First thing I did too was remove Metro.. for some reasons I don’t like huge Blocky interfaces in fact way back in CGA/EGA days when all we had was ANSI menus they STILL looked better than the dumb boxes that are the Metro (XBOX Live) interface.
Though I know of No-one who is running windows 7 (or XP) in an enterprise situation or even individuals who are running game staztions who will be upgrading to Win 8 now or in the foreseeable future.
In fact a lot of Gaming specific PC manufacturers (AlienWare, Razer, etc) are trying to figure out how to Not supply Windows 8 on their new systems. They are in negotiations to allow Win 7 to be installed instead.
When is someone going to reverse engineer win32 already?! We should already have a Linux distro that can run Skyrim/Crysis/whatever natively.
What, it’d be illegal? Hackers are afraid of breaking the law? You can already download Windows, why not a free, open-source OS that can run Windows programs?
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Do a google search on “WINE”. You might be surprised.
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And remember kids, WINE stands for Wine Is Not an Emulator. =p
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ACTUAL reverse engineering, not the black box/clean room stuff that WINE/ReactOS use. Those are legal, but they don’t do a perfect job. YOU do a google search on “WINE”, you’ll find that not every game works perfectly with it.
Re: Not so easy
For game developers to make games for unix based operating systems it would require hours more of development. Developers can take several years to develop a game for PC, let alone making it work on PC, Xbox, and Play Station.
For there to be a 4th OS and platform that needed games, even 2 PC based platforms, like Windows and unix OS’s it would require entirely different forms of coding and hardware use. Unix as it is does not play nice with a lot of hardware developed for PC use such as GPU’s and Ive heard of some motherboards and RAM having problems as well.
I personally find that Ubuntu wont run for shit on my laptop while Windows (basically any version) runs blazing fast. Unix will never get the attention of game developers except for maybe Valve because they are looking into it. But Valve is only one developer and their games are not as hardcore as others (Monolith, DICE, EA, Bethesda to name a few). Valves games are fun but they are not as popular as many others and they are kind of genre locked in different types of First Person Shooters.
Besides all this OS warfare, Windows will remain the number one OS for enthusiasts and hardcore gamers because the companies that develop the hardware and software we use focus on Windows.
8 does have a terrible GUI choice for desktop and laptop use though. If you dont have a touch screen its awful.
Metro works great on Zune and Windows Phone though.
Who cares about Windows store not carrying games? Games For Windows, Steam, and Origin are there to fill that space and Microsoft knows this.
Re: Re: Not so easy
Paid poster? Weekends off?
I’m pretty disappointed that Techdirt would post such blatant bullshit. There’s not much else to say, this article is complete bullshit.
The Windows Store isn’t required for games to run on Windows 8. Any application can be written for Windows 8 the same way they are for Windows 7. You will still get an icon on your Start Screen for it, and it will launch in Desktop mode.
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I’m similarly confused by the relevance of this article. So you can’t by Skyrim through the app store. Big whoop-dee-doo. Doesn’t mean you can’t get it through Steam and run it on Win 8.
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Read the entire linked article. He’s not saying you can’t run stuff in desktop mode. What he makes a compelling case for is the fact that starting with the release of Windows 8, the desktop is being marginalized, just like DOS was.
Remember how the DOS prompt used to be the primary interface to a PC? And then it was buried 3 levels deep in the Start Menu? And now there isn’t even a Start Menu? Same thing will happen with the desktop. 3 versions from now, there won’t *be* a desktop. Which means by then, no, you *won’t* be able to install anything you want. Only MS-approved software for you.
But if you wait until Windows 10 to complain about it, it will be too late to change their behavior.
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Precisely.
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MS will never be able to do this and hope to survive in the enterprise – which is their bread and butter. Companies need to use customized apps all the time and that is never going to go away. It’s all a lot of panic over nothing.
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Exactly why Microsoft’s plans make no sense.
OUYA console
Just waiting for the OUYA console (it runs Android) to hit the streets. Mine’s on order.
As i understand it this is all OPTIONAL
What I mean is that, while this would be disallowed on Microsoft’s own store, they are not locking down a PC running windows 8. So you should be able to install Steam and get it that way, or install it directly from dvd media right?
I know that they want to lock down the tablet RT platform, but isn’t this a non-issue for the rest of the machines?
Re: As i understand it this is all OPTIONAL
You are correct. 8 pro runs every win7 app or game I’ve come across. Been running the RTM since release and I’ve had zero issues on a Lenovo x201. Even go the fingerprint reader/trackpoint and touchpad all working using win7 drivers.
Since loading 8 pro I rarely boot to Win7 anymore since everything runs in 8 so much better!!!
I have nearly 500Gbs of Steam games running, including 5 Humble Bundles… Again, zero issues.
Take it or leave it, I care less since so many people are tools for the media downplay of 8, I love it!
Re: Re: As i understand it this is all OPTIONAL
You love it, so anyone who doesn’t must be a tool? I’ve been using it for months now, and I don’t love it. Quite the opposite.
Re: Re: Re: As i understand it this is all OPTIONAL
Please explain the differences between Windows 8 and Windows 7 other than some of the user interface changes. What makes it such a terrible experience? The start screen, or the charms menu that take about 30 minutes of use to get used to?
Re: Re: Re:2 As i understand it this is all OPTIONAL
Well.. the file copy dialogs are much better. The multi-screen environment I use is better supported, It seems* to do everything faster, and I get much better management tools.
Ok, this is one time I’m calling FUD on Techdirt. Skyrim may not be sold through the Windows 8 Store, but it will still run on Windows 8 by simply using the non-metro desktop. Where ever non-metro app that currently runs on Windows 7 will run without issue.
I understand the issue about Windows 8 Store and its limitation are a vaild concern, but the whole tone of this article could make one thing that no app would run that wasn’t bought and approved by MS through their store and that’s just not true.
Re: Re:
I think the major iossue is that, because Steam techniucally has 16+ Rated Games (Dishonored, Assassin’s Creed etc.), Steam is also barred from the Windows Store. Which is a huge problem for the ARM version of Win8.
Moreover, whislt the performance enhacements for Win8 are AMAZING, the UI for most desktop users is not.
Re: Re: Re:
Steam not being on Win RT App store is no different than not being on Apples app store. The RT hardware and OS couldn’t run the x86 developed games anyway.
The problem is when/if MS decides to abandon the desktop completely and move to a metro style UI for all versions of Windows, like when they dropped MS DOS.
Re: Re: Re: Re:
Are you beginning to understand planned obsolescence? How about vendor lock-in?
Re: Re: Re:2 Re:
Like I said above, MS can’t expect to survive in the enterprise if they remove the ability to install custom applications. There’s no way they will ever force all apps to go through their certification process.
Do your job, Zachary
I have seen this story be reposted by bloggers looking to score cheap points and links by claiming that Microsoft is locking down the OS. They are not. Please actually do your job and learn a little bit instead of blindly reposting. You’re giving Mike’s site a bad name.
5 minutes. That’s all it would take to realize that 99% of what’s listed in this “interview” isn’t true.
1) Windows is not restricting app installations on computers to only the app store. They are restricting MetroUI apps, which is not where something like Skyrim would run. MetroUI is designed to run across a wide range of devices (XBOX, Phone, Tablet, PC). For your desktop it is explicitly NOT where most of your programs will run.
2) The 3D work done for Skyrim is completely incompatible with the ARM devices, meaning that it would NEVER EVER EVER run on an RT tablet anyhow. They’d have to basically remake the game. It’d be like putting Skyrim onto a Nintendo DS – it’s a completely different architecture. All the libraries used (DirectX, for example) don’t exist in RT.
3) Yes, Microsoft has caused some confusion by calling everything this generation “Windows 8”. That doesn’t mean they’re all the same product.
4) Claiming Windows 8 won’t run anything outside the Windows Store is either intentional misinformation or willful ignorance. Glossing over that Skyrim (and in fact most apps) will never be a part of MetroUI is just negligence. Which is it for you, Zach – malicious, lazy, or ignorant?
5) Skyrim runs in Windows 7. That means it’ll run in Windows 8. End of story.
Re: Do your job, Zachary
You’re right that the article is a bit hyperbolic, but there is a future issue here.
Right now. However, Microsoft is being very, very clear that they are and will do everything they can to get rid of the desktop eventually. They just can’t do it right up front without actually destroying their business.
In the long run, in Microsoft’s plans come to fruition, you will not be able to run non-approved apps on your computer without some kind of jailbreaking.
Re: Re: Do your job, Zachary
Sure, and after Microsoft’s ridiculous rules drive 18-only games away, everyone who cares will switch to Linux (which is not so restricted) and everyone who doesn’t to Apple (which is restricted, but cooler).
Of course, MS stockholders might want to hope someone in charge makes this same prediction before going ahead with that plan.
Re: Re: Do your job, Zachary
Microsoft is being very, very clear that they are and will do everything they can to get rid of the desktop eventually.
As long as there are desktop computers, or should I say computers with keyboards, they will have operating systems. They just might not run Windows. I suspect this fact will sink into Microsoft sometime soon and they’ll reconsider their policy.
Meantime, they can do as they please with their latest unnecessary version of Windows. I won’t be using it until I need a new computer and I can’t get one with anything else.
Re: Re: Re: Do your job, Zachary
I used “get rid of the desktop” as shorthand for “get rid of the desktop version of Windows OS”. In other words, they want a unified OS experience regardless of whether you’re running on a desktop computer, tablet, phone, whatever. And they want that unified experience to be Metro.
Re: Do your job, Zachary
I’ll repost this bit here as well:
With the release of Windows 8, MS is starting on a 7-year plan to marginalize the desktop (where they don’t get a cut of sales).
Remember how the DOS prompt used to be the primary interface to a PC? And then it was buried 3 levels deep in the Start Menu? And now there isn’t even a Start Menu? Same thing will happen with the desktop. 3 versions from now, there won’t *be* a desktop. Which means by then, no, you *won’t* be able to install anything you want. Only MS-approved software for you.
But if you wait until Windows 10 to complain about it, it will be too late to change their behavior.
Re: Do your job, Zachary
An number of people have brought up your concerns, so I will address them here, since you seem to have a pretty good listing of problems with my story.
5 minutes. That’s all it would take to realize that 99% of what’s listed in this “interview” isn’t true.
I read the entire linked source article and the Windows Store app guidelines. I would have thought that would be sufficient research. Guess I was wrong. Should have asked my critics too.
1) Windows is not restricting app installations on computers to only the app store.
True, but the Metro UI is the default upon logging in and what the majority of casual users will spend the majority of their time.
They are restricting MetroUI apps, which is not where something like Skyrim would run.
It is not where today’s Skyrim will run, but what about tomorrow’s Skyrim that wants to be sold in the Windows Store and run in the Metro UI?
2) The 3D work done for Skyrim is completely incompatible with the ARM devices, meaning that it would NEVER EVER EVER run on an RT tablet anyhow.
Who is talking about RT devices? This article refers to desktops and laptops. On top of that, what is to say that an RT game developer would not seek out an ESRB or PEGI rating?
3) Yes, Microsoft has caused some confusion by calling everything this generation “Windows 8”. That doesn’t mean they’re all the same product.
I made no indication that the confusion was over what is or is not Windows 8. I pointed out the confusion of having a store with conflicting rules for inclusion. It just so happened that the examples were for a desktop computer.
4) Claiming Windows 8 won’t run anything outside the Windows Store is either intentional misinformation or willful ignorance.
Did I make that claim? I don’t think so.
Glossing over that Skyrim (and in fact most apps) will never be a part of MetroUI is just negligence.
Never is a strong word.
5) Skyrim runs in Windows 7. That means it’ll run in Windows 8. End of story.
This isn’t about Skyrim. This isn’t about any one particular game. This is about arbitrary rule and restrictions that conflict with each other. The games were simply an example to show how arbitrary and contradictory the rules are. Sorry you missed that point.
Re: Re: Do your job, Zachary
Sounds to me if Bethesda or any other publisher really wants to get into the game, they should invest in an alternative market. Like Cyndia, I’m sure they could easily jailbreak a Windows tablet without repercussions. Microsoft might play hardball, but I’m hoping the justice system would see the legitimacy of any complaints made by MS like they did in the Apple dispute.
Re: Re: Do your job, Zachary
I’m sorry but anyone who has spent any kind of time using Windows 8 knows that Metro is not where desktop users will spend time. Its an OS for multiple interfaces. If you have a touchscreen you will spend a lot of time in Metro. If you have a Desktop you will spend almost all your time in desktop except for launching apps, and maybe running a metro app on the side(like music or twitter or something like that) while in the desktop.
No one whose primary input is going to be keyboard mouse(Most PC games) is going to spend much time in metro.
Re: Re: Do your job, Zachary
We are trotting out this tired argument again? This was the EXCAT same argument used when microsoft started bundling IE with the operating system. Many people wanted the IE browser to be disallowed by default completely using the same flawed logic that users won’t use any other browsers because it was default.
Then the DOJ came along and among many of the orders handed to MS was that the IE browser needs to be optional and a less integral part of the OS. Microsoft complied making it easier for any browser to be run. IE is still the default on nearly all OEM windows systems and retail windows installs yet a vast majority of the internet uses alternates.
You argument is as hallow now as it was when they tried to use it at the height of the MS case.
Re: Re: Do your job, Zachary
4) Claiming Windows 8 won’t run anything outside the Windows Store…… Did I make that claim? I don’t think so.
The first line of the story you quoted did. “Because no software can ship on this future platform without it going through the Windows Store” So you put that claim front and centre.
Who is talking about RT devices?
Those of use who are technically literate assumed you were talking about RT devices because of the quote above stating that the only way to get software onto the platform was via the store. This is only (mostly) true for WinRT.
Why does one use Windows at all
1. Windows is something you use because it came with the computer when you bought it and you didn’t have a good reason to replace it. Come on Microsoft, give us a good reason.
2. Seriously, games are about the only reason you might actually prefer Windows when given a choice. PC games are released Windows-only because developers recognize point #1 above and don’t see a good reason to invest in Linux support. Come on Microsoft, give them a good reason.
When Microsoft gives you a good reason, forget Windows. In the mean time, don’t get all stressed out, it’s bad for your health.
Go Microsoft Go!
Nobody pushes users toward alternative operating systems like Linux as well as Microsoft does.
They pushed me to Linux and I can’t thank them enough. I was very comfortable with Windows and needed to be given a reason. Similar to this story Microsoft gave me reason. Now that I learned Linux I am forever free!
Re: Go Microsoft Go!
Funny, because Windows was what pushed me to Linux as well, and I’ve been nothing but happy with the switch.
In my case, it was when Windows scrambled the hard drive I keep my music collection on and I was looking at re-ripping everything. I decided I needed an OS that was more reliable, and never went back to Windows (except at work, where I have to use it as I develop Windows software).
Ugh... Linux isn't THAT great
I’ve tried to abandon Windows and jump to Linux. Until ALL my games work on Linux however, I simply can’t do that. I don’t want to spend 2 hours per game just getting the damn thing running on it. So until then, I guess I’m stuck with Windows 7. Which is fine with me.
good thing I’m not planning to upgrade my OS from Windows 7.
If windows 8 does that to other games.
Is that mean that Microsoft will only allow kiddie games into Windows 8? *vomits*
I think most of us will die from too much sweetness of THOSE games…
Business drives Windows, followed by games; neither are favourably positioned in the Metro UI.
Does MS really understand the enormous liability hole they’re opening up in terms of potential competition?
WING8T(S)
Seems like everyone thinks that upgrading to Win8 is mandatory.
Why upgrade at all. Win7 works well and will be around for a long time.
In the meantime y’all can work it out amongst yourselves.
In a couple of years when all the dust has settled and the bugs have been discovered and fixed, I may install win8.
By then things will be very different and the PC will live on.
But for now my XP, Vista and 7 machines all perform very well.
Viva la PC
Again the marketplace is not the end-all be-all for Windows 8!
Go blather on about Apple actually locking out non-app-store sources in OSX, or even the mess that is trying to distribute closed-sourced software for Linux. Oh wait, Linux is beloved because it’s open source and Apple is beloved because it’s Apple.
I heard sometime back that someone has already come out with a hack that a user can run to disable this “app certtification” and allow the user to run any program on Windows 8 they wish.
All the big players in entertainment are under a lot of pressure to do this sort of thing
As computing becomes ever more mainstream and is used by an ever larger crowd on a huge variety of devices – phones, tablets, laptops, desktop computers, your car’s dashboard, the screen in the plane seat, the wall-mounted screen at the daycare center – the same rules – written and unwritten – that already regulate other mainstream entertainment will take hold for computer entertainment.
This battle cannot be fought with the companies that currently have the largest market shares. It is purely political. The various rating boards and systems exist because of political pressure and are explicitly designed to brand certain content and enable its marginalization through (non-)distribution.
Apple, Microsoft, Nintendo or whathaveyou are not in the business of whitewashing culture, even though they are engineering the systems and writing the code. They are under political pressure to do so. Even if the presently leading executives of such a company happen to believe this is the right thing to do, these executives change. Constantly. Work to take the political pressure to implement these access barriers off them, and they will disappear.
Yeah it blocks it going on access to the windows store (Assuming Microsoft doesn’t change the rules on release, which I think is likely) but thats not that big a deal really
You can still run steam and all the other game services that work with previous windows versions so you can still run every game you can right now on Windows 8
I doubt microsoft would see much benefit selling big games like Skyrim in the microsoft store anyway. They would need to create a better service than steam with sales to match, and we all know how microsoft hates putting things on sale
Microsoft shoots off another toe...
Yet another reason to stick with Win7… Or migrate to Linux…
VirtualBox anyone?
I see mentions of WINE, which doesn’t work with everything but no mention of VirtualBox, which does.
I use Ubuntu for everything except one or two apps and for those, I have Windows XP set up as virtual machine. No problems whatsoever.
This article is wrong,.
I hope you guys realize that windows 8 is just as open as windows 7 and that game games from 7 and before work on windows 8 with or without certification….. Te App Store is for tablets mainly, desktops and laptops will still mainly get software the way they always have, through Internet download or a disk.
Re: This article is wrong,.
Metro is the default, which means everything else will eventually be depreciated. That means companies will need to get started on alternatives now, before it is too late.
Though, if we’re following the odd/even windows version cycle, we need to wait for windows 9 to know what crazy stuff Microsoft is going to roll back, and what they will keep.
I’m confused here… how exactly does this affect PC gaming? Besides metro focused apps? I mean, I fairly certain that Steam isn’t magically going to be replaced by Windows App store, and all the apps you get from the app store are going to be tablet/phone focused.
Step one to setting up windows 8, disable metro.
Article is Malarky
Being so late to the part, this probably won’t get read. Real shame because the article is BS, and no I’m not a Microsoft shill.
Windows 8 does not require things to be sold through the Windows Store unless they are simple Tile (Metro) applications.
A major video game like Skyrim will NEVER be a a Metro app. A game like Skyrim will install like it always has, and that method works just fine on Windows 8.
Now, there are some versions of Windows 8, such as Windows 8 RT, that would not be able to have a game installed like this. But most versions of Windows 8 do allow you to install things however you want.
There are very real problems with Windows 8 and the Windows Store that are against everything Microsoft has done in the past and are incredibly anti-business (as in 3rd party developers and even for Enterprise internal deployments).
But this article? Hogwash.
I was going to state the same thing as the Anonymous Coward above me but they beat me to the punch! I see these sort of unfounded complaints (of course some are definitely legit) about Windows 8 all over the internet, even now that people should know better!
I for one Love Windows 8, as well as my entire family, and we are all on Desktops. Nearly all of the games we had on windows 7 still work perfectly after the update, some slightly better and some a little worse, but the fact remains that Windows 8 does not lock developers out from anything other than the Windows store. Developing for the Windows store is certainly not mandatory. No offence but this article just isn’t true…
Steam
why not use steam do you think that games are goin to low priced on app store use your brain people
The tin foil hat must come off.
It simply won’t be an APP. No OS can control what you run on it. If you can’t buy it online, simply use of the many other tools at your disposal such as your friendly neighborhood gaming store, or any one of the digital services.