Sometimes Protecting Free Speech Means Protecting Speech You Don't Like

from the even-repugnant-speech dept

I’m a big fan of Vivek Wadhwa, who I think has done some excellent research showing the importance of skilled immigration and how it helps the US economy and helps expand jobs, rather than take them away. I’ve also been an outspoken supporter of encouraging greater skilled worker immigration into the US, as I believe it’s much better to have those individuals working in the US, for US companies, rather than working at home against US companies. I’ve been regularly yelled at and attacked for these views, often by a group of folks who all are on a particular mailing list of anti-immigration supporters that often runs into extremely racist territory. The people on that list seem to be under the belief that the world owes them high paying jobs, and they do not need to keep up on new technologies nor compete in the global marketplace. Some of those folks have set up a series of rather horrific websites that are blatantly racist, economically illiterate and at times disturbing, in their attacks on skilled immigration, specifically from India.

However, last month, when some of those sites were taken down by a court order, we were among the first to suggest this was a major overstep by the court. The lawsuit was about these sites posting a work agreement from a company that employs many H-1B visa recipients, suggesting that the company abuses the visa system. I’m all for exposing abuses of the system, because I believe that a skilled immigration program works better without such abuses. Oddly, the company, Apex, accused the sites of both libel and copyright infringement over the posting of the documents. If it were libel, it would mean the postings were not accurate. If it were copyright infringement, then that means Apex is admitting the contents were covered by copyright (meaning, they were accurate).

But rather than just demand the takedown of the specific content in question, the judge ordered the sites taken down completely, and even a Facebook group closed. That’s way over the line and goes well beyond what the lawsuit was about. It was great to see the EFF take up the case, but it’s a shame to see others miss the bigger picture.Esahc writes in to point out that Vivek Wadhwa has penned a column for TechCrunch blasting the EFF for defending these sites. I can understand why Wadhwa is upset about the sites. The sites are undoubtedly racist and despicable. They are also ignorant and economically illiterate. Some of the posts are, clearly, hate speech, and inciting violence against certain individuals.

If the lawsuit filed by Apex was about that, then he might have a point. But it was not. The lawsuit targeted a specific piece of information on three sites, and because of that, the court shut down all three sites, and related Facebook pages. It’s an overreach. Yes, the sites are dreadful, but the EFF is absolutely right to try to prevent such a judicial overreach. One of the reasons so many immigrants want to come to the US and want to work here is because of our respect for free speech principles and not condoning overly broad censorship, even of speech that we find repugnant. In the past, I’ve stepped forward and supported the free speech rights of even those who have attacked me the most on certain topics, when they were also attacked. I think that Wadhwa is going too far in attacking the EFF in this case. I certainly don’t agree with the EFF on everything it does — but in this case, it has made the right decision. The anti-immigration websites are disgusting, vile, racist and ridiculous — but that doesn’t mean we should allow a court to shut them down completely over a single complaint over some specific information.

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Companies: apex

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Comments on “Sometimes Protecting Free Speech Means Protecting Speech You Don't Like”

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Jake (user link) says:

I suppose one can use copyrighted material to commit libel if it’s taken out of context; would that be covered by fair use, I wonder?
I also wouldn’t be surprised if there turned out to be more to this than just the Apex document; I wouldn’t be hugely surprised to learn that evidence of other offences came out in court, possibly including criminal ones.

Surtr (profile) says:

Re: This goes hand in hand with cloud privacy rights...

Just a technical correction on the comment “. . .the rights granted by the constitution.” The US constitution does not “grant” rights to people, it limits the power of government. The tenth amendment was put in to make that fact very explicit because it is an extremely important one and is often forgotten.

From memory because i think this window might crash if i look it up and I’m lazy – “The powers not delegated to the united states by the constitution, nor prohibited to the states thereby, are reserved to the states respectively or to the people.”

scottbp (profile) says:

doing the right thing is sometimes unsavoury

So, I was going to comment on the techcrunch story but it was filled with commenters leaping to demand the EFF only support popular free speech.

That is the point really, popular speech doesn’t need protecting, it is the unpopular which we need to protect. Especially because you never know when your words might become unpopluar.

aguywhoneedstenbucks (profile) says:

Re: doing the right thing is sometimes unsavoury

First they came for the racists and I did not speak out—because I was not a racist
Then they came for the people who talk about their bowel movements and I did not speak out—because I was not a bowel movement speaker
Then they came for the shoe fetishists and I did not speak out—because I was not a shoe fetishist
Then they came for me—and the EFF had been disbanded for trying to help the racists.

The EFF has it right here. If I recall the post you’re talking about on TechCrunch, the writer said that the EFF had degenerated into an organization that supported copyright infringers and raporists or something to that effect. I haven’t liked them since Robin decided he wants Twitter to censor everything he doesn’t agree with so I can’t say that particular article surprised me. The whole staff over there has slowly turned into a bunch of douchebags who can’t see further than their own little bubble.

Jake (user link) says:

Re: doing the right thing is sometimes unsavoury

I haven’t visited any of the sites in question, but if it turns out that they’ve been taken down because their contributors were up to something worse than libel and/or copyright infringement -making death-threats, for example- then the EFF are going to look a wee bit silly.

nasch (profile) says:

Re: Re: doing the right thing is sometimes unsavoury

If Mike’s summary is accurate (I haven’t read any court papers), they were taken down for libel and/or copyright infringement, I’m not sure which. But apparently it had nothing to do with any hate speech that also happened to be on those sites. So no, the EFF is not going to look silly unless the facts presented here are materially false.

btr1701 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re: doing the right thing is sometimes unsavoury

> But apparently it had nothing to do with any hate speech that
> also happened to be on those sites.

Even if it did have something to do with the hate speech, that would still be a 1st Amendment violation. Hate speech is protected speech in America, per the Supreme Court (American Nazi Party vs. City of Skokie, Illinois). I know that various European countries have made it a crime to offend someone, but thank god we still have some freedom left here in the USA.

Mike is right, the sites in question may be hateful, but it’s a clear violation of the 1st Amendment for this judge to have censored them completely and I expect he’ll be vigorously overturned by the appellate court.

Jake (user link) says:

Re: Re: Re:2 doing the right thing is sometimes unsavoury

Define ‘hate speech’; I’d be astonished if making threats to kill (something that can put you in jail here in Britain) was covered by the 1st Amendment. And I haven’t seen any court papers either, so for all I know the sites have been ordered to turn their hardware over to the FBI whilst they or some of their users are investigated for conspiracy to commit murder.

btr1701 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3 doing the right thing is sometimes unsavoury

> Define ‘hate speech’; I’d be astonished if making
> threats to kill (something that can put you in
> jail here in Britain) was covered by the 1st
> Amendment.

Terroristic threats are not hate speech under American law. Hate speech is all the stuff that “offends” people. Threats are a different category altogether, however even our threat statutes require much more from the government in terms of elements and proof than in a typical European jurisdiction.

> And I haven’t seen any court papers either, so
> for all I know the sites have been ordered to
> turn their hardware over to the FBI whilst they
> or some of their users are investigated for
> conspiracy to commit murder.

This is a copyright/libel proceeding. A *civil* case. Criminal offenses like conspiracy or terroristic threats aren’t even within the jurisdiction of a judge presiding over a copyright case. If the government wants to seize the servers and take down the web sites because of suspected criminal violations, then the U.S. Attorney would have to bring a SEPARATE criminal case against the site operators, then obtain an indictment and a subsequent order of seizure. A judge can’t (on his own volition) all of a sudden start bootstrapping criminal sanctions into a civil suit brought by a corporate plaintiff.

One doesn’t need to see “court papers” to know that.

Derek Kerton (profile) says:

Re: Re:

If we exhibit the productivity of 3rd worlders, then a similar wage is what we deserve.

But if that’s the best you can do in America, then you must be quite weak.

Instead, if you/we can somehow muster the productive power of a better education, better access to capital, better infrastructure, and better rule of law to generate more output per capita…well, then we might end up better off than a 3rd world nation.

We start the “race” with a significant head start. If you still can’t win the race, that’s on you.

One EARNS more by producing more. Let the 3rd worlders sell us their goods and climb up into the modern world, while we try to be productive ourselves, instead of whining about the loss of an easy ride.

Mike says:

Re: Re: Re:

I hardly think you can call creating the IT industry “3rd world productivity”. According to a 2007 UN/ILO report, India’s workers are ranked 54th in world productivity. America’s workers are ranked #1. Not quite the same as Indians, wouldn’t you say?

Name the new industry that India has created and given to American workers on a silver platter for free without Americans having to lift a finger to enjoy it.

Libs like you will bend and twist any argument to fit your pro-open borders globalization agenda even when all evidence indicates that you are wrong. What matters most to libs is not the truth, not facts, but being right.

Face it, your multicultural globalization experiment is an EPIC FAIL and you can’t hide it any longer.

10 years ago, with mostly American workers the U.S. economy was booming. What happened to all those productive American workers? Were they all 55 years old at that time and have now retired? Did they all get collective amnesia and forget how to do their jobs? No, they are being kept out of the workforce by the very foregin labor we are bringing in. 3rd world labor has been a a total disaster for America. It’s time to deport them all now as agree in 1998 when they began coming in.

Bill Gates and Steve Jobs were both college dropouts. No fancy education there but lots of creativity and passion for products – two things both India and China lack.

The education argument is a canard used by the left to make up an excuse as to why Americans are not good enough for America’s jobs. America’s workers are the best in the world as we proved in the 90s. You’re just angry that your personal ideology of communism failed as we are now seeing on the world economic stage called globalization.

America has the highest per capita GDP of any country in the world except Luxembourg. We don’t need more productivity – we need Americans hold the jobs which they aren’t right now. The replacement of millions of Americans in jobs with 3rd world labor is the cause of the economic collapse. Replace workers ranked #1 in produvtivity with those ranked 54th and you’re likely to see an economic decline. If America has a productivity problem, it’s due to 3rd world workers working in America and not being as productive as Americans are.

:) says:

Re: Re: Re: Re:

10 years ago america was in decline and it has been on that path for nearly 30 years now since the raise of Asia.

The only thing that got the U.S. the sense of growth was internal expending and not really creation of wealth.

– Agriculture in U.S. soil would be impossible without subsidies as south american, african and asian countries would decimete then on prices if it was open. But food nobody wants to be dependent on others do they now? Even if america have the best technology it couldn’t beat people in the pre historic age of technological evolution.

– In electronics america was beaten by Asia a long time ago there is no TV sets made on the U.S. by an american company.

– Health care is seeing something equal as thousands of people discovered Health Turism on which they go to south american, asian, central american and asian countries to be treated by a fraction of the cost with top notch facilities with translators and other perks. Again money is going no where into the U.S. economy here this is truly lost revenue.

– Manufacturing jobs have gone elsewhere.

– Financial trust have been compromised.

– America is no longer the center of innovation Europe and Asia are slowly occupying that spot go to CES.

If americans are the best why are they not excelling in all those fields?

Why others can do the same job, for less? and even better?

Wakjob says:

Re: Re: Re:2 Re:

In the late 1990s and early 2000s the US was booming, not in decline. It wasnt due to spending, it was due to an explosion of innovation in IT – at a time when IT was 98% white American males. The decline began when the flood of 3rd world labor started arriving. It’s been downhill ever since.

TVs were invented in America long before Japan ever made them. 25 years ago all PCs were made in the USA. You can claim asia is beating US but how? By stealing aamerican industries? I can claim to be a winner too if I rob a bank and then say I am “successful”. Can you name one new invention or thing that originated in Asia at CES – no, you can’t they are all copies of things first invented and produced by Americans.

It must be pretty hard to sleep at night if you’re asian and know you’re “winnning” only by robbing ither countries. Do you think that makes the world respect you? You are a laughingstock bscause the only way you can be successful is to be a parasite on someone else.

US is still the world’s largest manufacturer, despite what you have heard about china. Google it. Asians are all fraud, thieves, and hypers. Nothing the world enjoys was inventrd by asians.

Derek Kerton (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re: Re:

“I hardly think you can call creating the IT industry “3rd world productivity”

Good, because that’s not what I said at all, but you just didn’t understand. I said that US workers ARE far more productive, because we can muster “the productive power of a better education, better access to capital, better infrastructure, and better rule of law to generate more output per capita”. It’s English, use it.

“Libs like you”

Whoa, there!! I’m a lib because I believe in a free market, unencumbered by a meddling government? Or is it because I believe in fierce competition, and that the most productive should earn accordingly? Help me out and tell me how that’s liberal. Dude, how can you say what’s right or wrong…you can’t even tell a right wing position from a left winger.

“Replace workers ranked #1 in productivity with those ranked 54th”
Productivity means a certain amount of output for a certain amount of input (pay). No company would ever choose to replace top productive staff with anything less. In cases where US workers are the most productive, they keep their jobs. The challenge for Americans is not to bitch to your government to protect you, it’s to out-compete the foreign workers.

Let me shift the perspectives so correct some of your comprehension gaffes about who is the commie: Communists like YOU want the government to protect citizens with regulations and market control. You want DC to interfere with the free market on citizen’s behalf, and assure comrades an income, whether they work harder than others or not. Capitalists like me think that those who are most productive, and compete successfully should be the biggest winners, wherever they are.

Wkajob says:

Re: Re: Re:2 Re:

“Communists like YOU want the government to protect citizens with regulations and market control. You want DC to interfere with the free market on citizen’s behalf, and assure comrades an income, whether they work harder than others or not. Capitalists like me think that those who are most productive, and compete successfully should be the biggest winners, wherever they are.”

Got news for you bud – there are already laws on the books protecting American workers. Have been for decades – Title 8, Section 1182 – Inadmissible aliens. Every ither country has laws to protect its workers – oh wait, those countries are booming. Free trwde has long been a communist goal. Free trade as in redistributing the wealth of productive countries to the unproductive ones. From each according to his abilities to each according to his need. Can you name for us the specific guest worker programs that allow a million US citizens to take jobs every single year in India or China?

Americans are not being allowed to compete – we’re being kept out of the workforce by angry, jealous asians who can’t possibly beat us if we are working alongside them. Their only hope of competing with us? Keep us out of the competition!

Wakjob says:

Re: Re: Re:

We DID produce more. In fact, we produced every major industry the rest of the world now enjoys, including IT, yet the rest of the world enjoys the high paying jobs while Americans get zip. That’s industrial theft, not “productivity”.

Those who are super brillaint and super product deserve super rewards, not unemployment. This is communism we are witnesssing.

sceptic (profile) says:

Re: Re:

I hate to feed the trolls but…

“If you’re an American and a big fan of the H-1B visa, either you are hopelessly ignorant or on the payroll of the cheap labor lobby.”

Several of my coworkers are working here legally with an h-1B, yet are paid as much or more than I. What exactly am I ignorant of? They have families in the U.S., spend their money on American products, and are happy to be employed and hoping to stay.

I do not fear my coworker, employee or employer – no matter their nationality, race, or heritage. The biggest impediment to my success is the limit of my own ability. This is the way I want it to stay and without truly free speech -popular, unpopular, right, wrong, insulting, or praising – I don’t think my life can continue along that path.

Dolores says:

Re: Re: Re:

Nobody said that all H-1Bs are underpaid. A few are paid well, mostly those who were recruited and hired directly by companies for a specific need. But a good many are brought in by the contingent labor business – bodyshop – and then shopped out to customers by vendors. That is what needs to end. We also need to make sure that Americans have a chance at all jobs in America – no more failure to prominently post these positions where we can see them in time to apply. That’s only fair.

Dan says:

Re: Re:

I agree. I get Mike’s point that “they can work for us or against us”. What I have more of a problem with is Mike’s assertion that it grows jobs. For that to happen, the immigrants would be starting companies of their own. I’m sure some do, but I don’t think it happens in the numbers Mike is suggesting.

But in all fairness to Mike, I also think that there is a major disconnect between the skills companies want and what our colleges teach, hence some need for the H-1B. Take a look at a typical technical 4 year curriculum and a job posting on a job board. It’s a total disconnect. The colleges are making us pay for way too much bullsh*t companies don’t need.

Trails (user link) says:

Re: Re: Re:

“What I have more of a problem with is Mike’s assertion that it grows jobs. For that to happen, the immigrants would be starting companies of their own.”

No. Job growth can also be a result of a company’s success.

The fundamental failure to your logic is that you imply that, short of new businesses, the job market is a zero sum game. It’s not.

If a company does well, it’s more likely to hire people, purchase services and goods, in turn causing those goods and services providers to require more employees.

A rising tide floats all boats.

Dan says:

Re: Re: Re: Re:

“Job growth can also be a result of a company’s success.”

True, but that is by no means an indication that those displaced by the H1-B program are part of that growth.

Most likely, the displaced workers will be rehired somewhere else, most likely with a reduction in pay starting at a new company. For the worker, that’s not growth. That’s the disconnect between Mike and those who disagree.

Mike’s argument seems to be if it’s good for business growth, and betterment of the situation for individuals will follow. Corporate America has been using that argument in government lobbying for years. Reagan called it “the trickle down theory”. IMHO, it doesn’t work well. Corporate rewards aren’t put into hiring of staff as a priority, generally speaking. We’re certainly not seeing any growth of that kind right now.

That’s why I think Mike’s argument hits a snag. It doesn’t factor in corporate greed. Mike has already shown corporate greed to be one of the most hindering forces in the economic system {entertainment industry, copyrights, patients, banking….}. Yet for this one issue, I can’t see where he factors that in at all. I really hate to say this, but he seems to be ignoring it as a factor in order to prove a point. (I love what you write Mike, I’m assuming I just missed something you said somewhere.)

Or perhaps Americans as a whole have been WAY over paid for the last 20 plus years, and this is a natural adjustment. I could buy that.

Matt (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2 Re:

Well… yeah, we have. But that isn’t the issue. The issue is that we lack expertise.

The H-1B lets in immigrants with skills that are demonstrably lacking in the US. The effect is to depress wages for that one job category, which leads to reduced investment in that area – ie, H-1B visas perpetuate H-1B visas. But that is only bad if you don’t like interesting people from other cultures increasing US diversity.

As to whether it actually displaces US workers… not much, if at all. Outsourcing is much more likely to do that. Again, the reason is because the H-1B exists to decrease labor monopolies in key job descriptions. But You can outsource anything, whether or not there is a strong labor market in that job class in the US. Put differently, the point of H-1B is that every US citizen that can do the job and wants to will be employed first, and only then will we invite outsiders. Contrast that with non-immigrant work placement, where the job leaves the country regardless of whether there is a citizen who can and would like to do it.

Of course, one could do worse than to eliminate minimum wage, if one’s primary interest were in encouraging employment.

Mike says:

Re: Re: Re:3 Re:

If Americans lack the skills then how did Americans create the IT industry long before foreign workers began arriving in large numbers.

Apple CLOSED its R&D center in India in 2006 and hires mostly American developers. 100% of Apple software is made in U.S. using 90% American labor. Did I mention Apple is booming?

Why did GM which was booming in 2006 go bankrupt a mere 3 years after outsourcing to Wipro.

Why did Lehman go under a year after buying Wipro’s flawed Spectramind software.

Why did Dell, Delta, and United all bring their call centers back to the U.S. last year. Apparently Indians can’t even answer phones, let alone write code.

Why did AIG go under after outsourcing to Accenture and Wipro?

Why did Quark almost go out of business after making an Indian conman (Alukah Kamar) CEO?

Why did Bell Labs, birthplace of the transistor, UNIX, and C close its doors 3 years after an Indian national named Arun Netravalli gut the U.S. workforce there and replace them with 100% Indians.

Why did ComAir’s 100% Indian IT department cause the 12/25/05 nationwide airport shutdown in America because they used a short int for a count when they should have used a long int?

Why did HCL have to rewrite the ILS and collision detection software for Boeing’s 787 THREE TIMES before it worked, causing delays and penalties for Boeing?

Why can’t India produce its own operating system?

Why is there no Adobe or Microsoft of India.

Name one Indian software product that anyone uses (that works).

America doesn’t have the expertise? No one believes that tired old argument anymore. Rather it is the Induvasion for the past decade that has kept skilled Americans out of the U.S. workforce – which is exactly why the U.S. economy is failing. These people are not perorming as promised. Time to deport them all.

Mike says:

Re: Re: Re:3 Re:

Indian managers are in the U.S. deliberately keeping and throwing skilled Americans out of work. Nice theory about H-1B only kicks in after all Americans have full employment or every skilled American who can do a job is employed, but in reality, H-1B has become a conduit for foreign nations to keep Americans out of the workforce. And now the economy is proving disastrous as a result.

1998 == American workers and booming econ
2008 == A decade of millions of foreign workers and a failed economy

Duh. Connect the dots.

compgeek (profile) says:

this is a situation where you are damned if you do and damned if you dont. personally i agree mike. free speech is free speech is free speech. even though in this case its… wrong on way too many levels it is still free speech. although people tend to defend free speech only when it suits them then decry it when it doesnt. for example: i once saw an article on yahoo about a state (i think it was either arkansas or oklahoma, cant remember though) in which a guy was posting anti-muslim propaganda fliers at businesses and areas ran/owned/inhabited my those who were of the islamic religion, the people complained and the courts threw out the complaints on 1st amendment grounds. i personally disagree with the message on the fliers, but the man had the right to post them. muslims are not very well liked right now in many areas due to certain events that took place 8 years 3 months and 8 days ago (9/11) so the guy was immediately allowed to post them again if i remember correctly, correct me if im wrong. now here we have the (gasp!) immigration topic. some see it as unamerican. personally i dont think its all that bad of an idea, but because it doesnt suit some peoples opinion of how things should be, the unpopular speech is being stifled.

in closing: people are splitting hairs. they cant have it both ways, so people as a whole need to decide if they want free speech or censored speech. i personally go for free no matter the consequences

American President says:

Quote from the Movie American President...

“You want free speech? Let’s see you acknowledge a man whose words make your blood boil, who’s standing center stage and advocating at the top of his lungs that which you would spend a lifetime opposing at the top of yours. “

Free speech isn’t just for you, it’s for everyone… otherwise, it’s not free.

Allen (profile) says:

Censorship does not help to address ignorance

By the time I got around to reading the Techcrunch post it was too late to join in any meaningful discussion. It had degenerated into a cesspool of accusation and counter accusation. Like scottbp I declined to comment.

It is dumbfounding that people who hold themselves to be intelligent can take a few cases where some company has abused the system and lay the blame on the exploited immigrants rather than those that exploit them. Lowering the debate to racial vilification is deplorable.

But, much as I deplore the hateful views Vivek opposes, much as I oppose those views he wants to suppress, you cannot address ignorance with censorship.

The US owes its prosperity to migrants. Migrants built the nation, migration provided the stimulus that fueled its growth throughout the 20th century and migration will ensure its future. No nation that has closed its borders has prospered.

Refusing to engage and correct bad ideas is no way to address them

Dolores says:

Re: Censorship does not help to address ignorance

But it’s ok to villify me? I don’t see where anybody is deriding guestworkers on racial grounds. We can rightfully criticise bringing in a worker if they turn out to be less qualified, or are being used to replace a qualified local worker (which the H-1B was NOT supposed to do). Nor are the workers (they cannot be called immigrants, as the H-1B is not an immigration visa, no matter how much they might wish otherwise) totally innocent. If you hang around sites geared to their support, especially Immigration Voice, you will see instructions for evading regulations and even sometimes lawbreaking. Are you out of status? Here illegally? Got a positive TB test? They’ll have all sorts of suggestions and in only two cases of my watching them for years now have I seen their suggestions be, “you have to go back home.” Now there’s an alarming site, and I don’t see anybody shutting IV down.

Matt (profile) says:

Re: Re: Censorship does not help to address ignorance

Right. I think that’s Allen’s point – your site, and IV, should both be allowed to spew nonsense, even if it is unmoored from fact or principles. Allen should be allowed to say that the real victims here are people who are intentionally breaking the law, and you should be allowed to say that the real victims here are people who feel as if the government has breached its employment guarantee.

But there is no need to villify someone on the basis of race, rather than conduct or whatever socially-acceptable metric is being used at the moment. Or do you disagree?

Dolores says:

Re: Re: Re: Censorship does not help to address ignorance

I don’t have any site, and I don’t see why H-1Bs (whether individually or in the aggregate) should be protected from criticism. If it is ok to call a white guy or guys incompetent, uneducated, lawbreakers, or whatever because either they are or you believe they are (which the H-1Bs and their defenders have been doing for a decade now), then it is ok to criticise the guestworkers if you believe they are here wrongfully. I have seen accusations of inflated resumes and skill sets claimed falsely, as well as visa overstays. I don’t see anybody criticizing them because of their race. Nobody cares what color they are. Lots of Americans born here aren’t white, either. Many of them are looking for work right now. In fact, the presence of American minorities in the tech fields has dropped drastically upon the influx of H-1Bs.

Mike says:

Re: Re: Re:2 Censorship does not help to address ignorance

H-1B is illegal because the U.S. Constitution forbids the creation of “protected classes” in the U.S. Since India is a violent caste system, whe Indians come to the U. they bring that same caste attitude and arrogance with them. If they were actually productive and creating a booming economy they could be justified in their arrogance. But when they turn once-booming Silicon Valley into a wasteland of FOR LEASE signs and the CA gov’t into a bankrupted failed state, and when they come here only for the purpose of strip-minning the U.S. economy and taking over jobs created by successful Americans, and on top of all that deliberately keeping Americans out of their own job market, well then it’s time to say enough is enough and start deportation immediately.

Welcome to the US social services system. Deal wi says:

Re: Re: Censorship does not help to address ignorance

Welcome to the club. Like laid off Americans replaced by H-1B and experiencing unemployment for the first time in their careers – you are experiencing the reality of the US Social Services System. Your treatment NOTHING to do with your H-1B or ABC, or XYZ. No one cares that I have a Masters Degree and 15+ years high tech experience – I am unemployed and treated with shocking disrespect.

No one cares if you are from a higher socioeconomic group in your country – you are a temporary guest worker. Expect the same.

Your frustration and disrespect and real and understandable.

As an unemployed and educated American tech worker, I have to deal with it every day, I get the honor of being disrespected by unemployment, government agencies, banks. Why, because I’m unemployed and replaced by guest workers.

Despite a tireless job search without response, I also have the pleasure of dealing with disrespectful workers at the bank who insult me and refuse to explore a mortgage refinance for the home that I could comfortably afford for a decade. Why, I’m unemployed, ineligible for Making Home Affordable because I’m unemployed, and treated like pond scum – why because I was laid off and replaced by temporary visa workers from other countries.

And, I am luckier than most of the laid off Americans replaced by guest workers I know. I count my blessings that I am not yet homeless and have not yet had to deal with food stamps.

Fact, American workers replaced by guest workers have lost their jobs, homes, life savings, life insurance, and sadly, many have lost their lives.

Welcome to the club. Deal with it.

:) says:

Re: Re: Censorship does not help to address ignorance

No you are arguing against competition right.

So why is that you don’t look at the causes of problem?
Why is that is more attractive to hire illegals? or bring in other workers from other places?

Correct those and things will stabilize don’t and no matter what laws are passed those jobs will be gone.

Is not the workers is the business environment which is now global and not only “domestic” if you fail to see the global situation then you will fail to see a solution that works.

Dolores says:

A lot of assumptions here

Who said no foreigners? Nobody, not even Tunnel Rat. Just don’t bring in scads of foreigners for jobs Americans can easily do when so many Americans are out of work. That’s not racism, that’s common sense. Who said the world owes them a high paying job? Nobody, not even Tunnel Rat. Who said they refused to update their skills? Nobody. Who says there’s a mailing list of “anti-immigrants” – maybe there is, maybe there isn’t – so what?

Dolores says:

Re: Re: A lot of assumptions here

Many, if not most, of the Americans devasted by this last year’s hacksaw layoffs ARE skilled workers, and could easily either step into the jobs taken by guestworkers, or could easily be trained to do so. Just look at an LCA database and see the jobs that H-1B importers file for, and tell me you don’t know Americans within those specialties who are looking for work right now.

:) says:

Re: Re: Re: A lot of assumptions here

I doubt Americans would step in for low pay jobs that require breaking back labor.

For one employers don’t hire them because they complain to much, ask for higher salaries and will abandon the job after weeks in a higher rate then those other(immigrants) workers that is why there is a market for them. Is competition really.

For the skilled workers well those can and do create a lot of jobs, one of the Google founders is not an American is it? One of NASA’s contractors is an ex-astronaut(non american) that build a firm to develop a new propulsion system and is locate outside the U.S. but employs Americans.

With the economy on the toilet one could argue that now is the time to treat others well because it will be the parameter used to treat Americans on those countries. accountants, international lawyers, architects, engineers will all find jobs in Asia and other places.

Doubt here look at it.

One note how is that immigrants buy houses with what they make and Americans can’t buy those without higher salaries?

Americans apparently no longer have the will to endure the sacrifices needed to compete and be the best they can.

Dolores says:

Re: Re: Re:2 A lot of assumptions here

The “immigrants” (not if they are H-1Bs) are probably buying homes that Americans lost when they lost their jobs – homes that were either foreclosed or short-saled and are now being dumped on the market by the banks for whatever they get. Bet the “immigrant” got much better terms and a lower price than the previous owner.

Wakjob says:

Re: Re: Re:2 A lot of assumptions here

Sergei Brin moved to USA when he was 6, grew up here and was raised here. He’s more American than immigrant. The other Google founder is American BTW.

Can you tell us when that new NASA propulsion system created by a foreigner will be put into production, or is it just another pipe dream with American $ being thrown down some rathole so its foreign workers can get paychecks and send all the $ home to their families as fast as they can?

Come on stop the grandiose lies. These people come here, get funded by us and send the $ home as fast as they can whist producing very little.

Dolores is a racist says:

Re: A lot of assumptions here

NOBODY ever said the world owes ANYBODY a high paying job. You seem to be so enamored with Tunnel Rat and his racist views. You have no business telling a company how to run its business. Whether it wants to hire a foreigner or a local is entirely up to them. If you don’t like it and want to hire ONLY American-born, who you seem to think are genetically superior to the rest of the world for some reason, you are free to start your own company and do so. But, who the hell are you to tell companies who they should and shouldn’t be hiring? Quit whining, you loser.

Dolores says:

Re: Re: A lot of assumptions here

Um, no, every other nation in the world has regulations about who can come in and work from other countries, and they are almost always far, far stricter than ours. India had just such a ruckus recently concerning Chinese workers. America, like the other countries, is a sovereign nation and has the responsibility (as well as the right) to regulate access to its land and other resources, and a duty to keep the well being of its existing citizens uppermost in mind when deciding whether to open or close avenues of entrance. Nothing unusual here, every nation does it.

Matt (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re: A lot of assumptions here

The question is not what India does. To put it mildly, India has vastly different needs than the United States. It is not even what the EU does. Critically, the question is not even what is best for some subset of American workers. The question is what is best for the country. I think what other commentators are saying is that the country is better off with a steady stream of skilled workers from outside the US.

But this is trolling. Whether the hate-mongers were right or not is not the point. The only question is whether a Court was right (both morally and legally) in enjoining speech unrelated to the only issue before it (libelous or infringing speech). The answer to _that_ one is clear, assuming Mike has correctly represented facts and holding.

Mike says:

Re: Re: Re:2 A lot of assumptions here

What is best for the country is protectionsim.

25 years of Reagan’s protectionism created the booms in the 80s and 90s.

What do we have today?

A decade of free trade and globalization and the economy is a disatser.

Protectionsim is best for America. We don’t need the world. They need us.

Mike says:

Re: Re: Re:2 A lot of assumptions here

If the country is better off with a steady stream of (allegedlly) skilled workers from outside the U.S. then why has a decade of that policy produced the biggest economic disaster in 70 years? Common sense says stop doing what isn’t working.

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing and expecting different results. A steady stream of faking unskilled workers masquerading as skilled workers who come to America for free Amercian training and free jobs created by others can only harm America even more.

Dolores is a racist says:

Re: Re: Re: A lot of assumptions here

WRONG! The difference between America and the other countries you talk about, is that America was built by immigrants. Except for the Native Americans, every American is a descendant of immigrants. The quote, “Give me your poor, your tired, your hungry and your downtrodden” is at very heart of America’s founding. Saying “Immigrants are not welcome here” is very un-American. If this country had not let in any immigrants, even YOU wouldn’t be here, whining and ranting about “fourners” taking your job. You would probably be stuck in some cesspool somewhere else in the world (wherever your ancestors came from). Get real! Your ancestors (and mine) came to this country in search of a better life, so aren’t you grateful that America let them in? But, now, you don’t want America to extend the same privilege that it did to your ancestors? Wow, that speaks volumes about your prejudiced mind!

Dolores says:

Re: Re: Re:2 A lot of assumptions here

The fact that our ancestors may have been immigrants does not make us immigrants. Around 80% or more Americans were born here, and have no homeland to return to if America doesn’t work out for them. Yes, America let our ancestors in, but that was then, this is now. Back then, we didn’t have a population of over 300 million people. Now we do, and conditions are different. We need to be able to adjust to current conditions and not live in some storybook past. Our current conditions include an official unemployment rate of 10% and a true unemployment rate far above that. Many of them have the very same skills listed in the LCAs calling for H-1Bs. What’s wrong with encouraging the rehiring of our own people? Nothing.

Mike says:

Re: Re: Re:2 A lot of assumptions here

America was not built by immigrants. From 1990 to late 1998 immigrants were a mere 10% of the U.S population. Since 1998 that figure has risen to 16%. That means for the entire 20th century U.S. was 84%-90% native born Americans. Do you really expect us to believe that America was built by 10% of the population while the other 90% sat around doing nothing? America was *** built by Americans descended from European immigrants ***. Asians didn’t begin arriving *** in large numbers *** before 1998. Don’t say the Chinese and the railroads because they were at most 5000 Chinese. Not the 5 million we have from India alone today. America is a European-descended nation. Civilized countries. Not from barbaric countries such as India where human sacrifice is still practiced or from China where aborted babies are served in soups in restaurants. Don’t try to compare today’s leeches with yesteryears’ immigrants. Yesteryear’s immigrants wanted to be American and stay here. Indians (who comprise 71% of all H-1Bs) merely come here to strip-mine the U.S. economy and send their paychecks home where the exchange rate makes them into millionaires when they go home 6 years later.

Brining 3rd world immigrants from barbaric countries is not the same as brining people from civilized countries. Besides, every immigration wave to the U.S. since 1900 has resulted in recession.

YOU are not the same as US. India did nothing to help America for the 1st 500 years. Now that Americans have built the envy of the world and India is unable to make its own country work, NOW after 500 years all of a sudden they all want in. And if the past decade is any indication, they are a destructive force, not a building force. Common sense says to stop doing what isn’t working and Asian immigration isn’t working for the U.S.

Comparing European countries to India’s cesspool is ridiculous. 600,000,000 people defecate in the open in India every day. 40% of all Indian households don’t even have toilets or running water. Same as Europe? Keep dreaming. We are civilized, you are not. And that is why you don’t deserve America. You have failed to perform as advertised and that means you should be fired (and deported) immediately.

European ancestors came to America and CREATED a better life. Asian immigrants of today come to America LOOKING for a better life. In other words, living off the success and work of Americans as if Asians had created it. Get real! You people destroy every economy you go to. U.S., UK, Australia, even Dubai. All dead, destroyed, debt-ridden economies after 10 years of mass Induvasion.

Jack McCabe says:

Re: Re: Re:3 A lot of assumptions here

Michael Amorose,

“America was *** built by Americans descended from European immigrants ***”

So, if those European immigrants weren’t allowed into America back then, YOU wouldn’t be here, you bigoted jackass! See the irony in your post, you ignorant bigot? What if the Native Americans back then had decided to close their borders? Don’t even TRY telling me European immigrants “civilized” the Native Americans, as I’m sure you are you are about to say, you inbred redneck. NO, the Native Americans DID NOT invite the Europeans to take over their land, and kill millions of their people by passing around blankets laced with the small-pox virus. In fact, they despised them (some still do) for destroying and decimating their ancient cultures and languages by genocide. Unfortunately for you, you were born a few years too late to be having a slave-driver mentality like yours. This is isn’t Nazi Germany, nor is it America in the 1700’s where you could go around owning slaves. This is America of today, and everybody is equal here, regardless of race, ethnicity, color, creed, gender, religion and sexual orientation, which is what makes this country so great. If you don’t like it here, GET THE F*CK OUT OF MY COUNTRY!! You spoil the name of decent Americans like us, and you have NO place in our great country and society.

Mike says:

Re: Re: Re:4 A lot of assumptions here

My great grandfather came here from Italy and was poor most of his life. So was his son. It took my family 3 generations to becapome established in the US. Both he and my grandfather understood that they had to start at the bottom and work very hard and work their way up. He didn’t step off the boat with a viscious gleam in his eye and step into a $150K a year job he couldn’t do and didn’t deserve. That’s the difference bwteen my ancstors and today’s so-called immigrants. And he came from a European background. For example in Asian cultures, stealing and corruotion are a way of life. Those are not values that built America. If you think The US can retain her greatness based on worshipping bloodthirsty Kali from India or be committed to cutting heads off, then you are delusuonal. You had better start valuing what we have here.

My great grandfather didn’t come here with the view to work here for 6 years, suck $100K out of the country, send it all home where it is worth much more due to the exchange rate, and strip-mine the US economy. No, he came here with the view to work hard, become American, and stay here. Today’s immigrants from the 3rd world are nothing like immigrants of the past.

Native Americans didn’t spdeserve America because they were bloodthirsty savages sitting around inmmud huts smoking dope and slaugtering eqch other in tribal wars. You can hardly compare that with European civilizaition. They go conquered because they were savages.

Cow-worshippers and piss-drinkers do not deserve America either.

We close our borders to barbarians and conmen, all others are welcome. Civilization is worth preserving and importing barbarians is not the way to do it, regardless of how they dress and how many fake degrees they claim.

I don’t think I could have worked at Apple Sony and have written 20 successful commercial software products if I was an “inbred redneck”. How many software products have you written? Are you even American?

Title 8, Section 1182 – INADMISSIBLE ALIENS says all jobs must go to US citizens first. Now go home TEMPORARY GUEST WORKER – you’ve been here a decade longer than you promised originally and you are an inadmissible alien.

Wakjob says:

Re: Re: Re:2 A lot of assumptions here

If America was built by immigrants then it was European immigrants. America’s success rides on Judeo-Christian civilization. Not Hinduism and communism. asians didn’t start arriving in hordes until 1998. You can hardly claim they built America. Where were asians for the 500 years before that when mostly white european immigrants were building America? They didnt do jack to help build America. In fact, it’s been nothing but decline since they got here. Besides, immigrants of the past loved America and wnatrd to become Americans. They started at the bottom and worked their way up. Today’s immigrants have never seen a lightswitch, come from asia with fake degrees bought in Punjab, then step off the plane and right into a 150K/year job. All the while spitting on America and hating Americans due to oerceived historial grievances. So don’t claim immigrants of today are the same as those of yesteryear.

Besides, 84% of the current US population was born here. Do you expect us to believe the 16% immigrants are keeping the place going while the other 84% sits around doing nothing? LOL. CA is going broke because of all the lazy 3rd world wealth-siphoners in that state. 13 of mass immigration has helped te US economy… It’s a disaster now.

Derek Kerton (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re: A lot of assumptions here

“Um, no, every other nation in the world has regulations about who can come in and work from other countries”

…since around the first world war. Before that, labor was completely mobile, unencumbered by meddling governments. Human mobility was never so regulated as it is today.

Prior to the world wars, people crossed borders with no papers, passports didn’t yet exist, and the world prospered and our economy grew. We told Europeans to check-in on Ellis Island…and that’s about it.

Do you support the free market? Most right-wingers and anti H1-B people SAY they do (when it suits them). But work visas, by their very existence, are anti-free market. And restricting work visas is even more anti-free market. Restrictions prevent labor from moving to places with relatively more work. So, if you’re anti migrant worker, you MUST also admit to being anti-free market.

Mike says:

Re: Re: Re:2 A lot of assumptions here

Free trade causes WW2. In fact, we passe a law called the Trading With Enemies Act to prevent it from happening again. That law is now being ignored. China & India are the new Germany and Japan. Both China & Indian harbor deep historical resentments against the west as did Germany and Japan before WW2. We’re talking 100 years of pent up anger mainly due to Britain’s colonization 100-200 years ago.

Japan does today have very very strict laws on foreign workers. In fact, they are deporting all foreign workers as we speak. Google “Born in Japan, Ordered Out” and “Japan deports foreign workers”.

Stop your propaganda. UK and Europe also have native-first laws. Under the EU charter it is illegal to bring in foreign workers unless you’ve first conducted a search for a qualified workers in every one of the member EU countries and certify you can’t find one.

So, your propaganda doesn’t quite hold water. Even UK is now deporting foreign workers and denying permanent residency to guest workers (search TOI for articles).

Unfortunatley the world and Americans always have to learn the hard way. We will have to have another world war before people like you wake up to the reality that free trade causes war.

Derek Kerton (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3 A lot of assumptions here

Mike, you fail at basic language and reading comprehension.

Note that above I argued not that the EU doesn’t place restrictions on foreign workers, but that this has only developed since the first world war. For most of history, human mobility hadn’t been encumbered by government bureaucracy. Labor moved to where it could be more productive.

You accuse my comment of propaganda twice. I’m not sure WTF you’re talking about. My three paragraphs are historically factual statements, and an economic statement in the third. Which of them is propaganda? Do you know what the word means?

Lastly, the Treaty of Versailles is largely understood to have set the environment that allowed for the rise of the Nazis. It was this punitive Treaty set by the WWI allies, that allowed so much anger in Germany. Unfair treatment of other countries IS a potential cause of war. Free trade usually has the opposite effect.

You seem to think Appeasement a la Neville Chamberlain was the cause of the war. That’s dumb. By the time of Chamberlain’s Appeasement, the stage for WWII was already set. His reaction was lame, but it didn’t cause the war, it just delayed it.

Wakjob says:

Re: Re: Re:2 A lot of assumptions here

Free trade is a communist ploy to get our tech and industry so they can attack us. Google “communist goals 1963”.

If you think it’s a good idea to have another world war just so we can say we are playing nice and arent racist, you are delusional. We closed up after WW2 precisely because trading with enemies caused it. If you the unimagineable horror of WW3 is worth playing these games, then you neither love your country, nor other people. You are sick. This is worldwide war and destruction we are playing around with here. I hope you’re the first to get drafted.

Mike says:

Re: Re: Re: A lot of assumptions here

TOKYO — Fida Khan, a gangly 14-year-old, told the court that immigration authorities should not deport him and his family merely because his foreign-born parents lacked proper visas when they came to Japan more than 20 years ago.

Aggressive enforcement of Japanese immigration laws has increased in recent years as the country’s economy has floundered and the need for cheap foreign labor has fallen.

Nationality in Japan is based on blood and parentage, not place of birth. This island nation was closed to the outside world until the 1850s, when U.S. warships forced it to open up to trade. Wariness of foreigners remains a potent political force, one that politicians dare not ignore, especially when the economy is weak.

As a result, the number of illegal immigrants has been slashed, often by deportation, from 300,000 in 1995 to just 130,000, a minuscule number in comparison to other rich countries. The United States, whose population is 2 1/2 times that of Japan’s, has about 90 times as many illegal immigrants (11.6 million)

Among highly developed countries, Japan also ranks near the bottom in the percentage of legal foreign residents. Just 1.7 percent are foreign or foreign-born, compared with about 12 percent in the United States.

harbingerofdoom (profile) says:

Re: Re: A lot of assumptions here

you are using hyperbole to argue your point which if you cant do, means you really have no point to make.

no one that is not on the board of directors or a major stock holder has the right to tell any business how to manage its work force. except of course when doing so is illegal such as in the case of hiring illegal immigrants or in cases where the hiring of such a workforce presents a destabilizing force on our economy such as the case for importing ‘skilled workers’ and outsourcing a large percentage of a corporations jobs to overseas markets.

i could not care less where someone was born or what their genetic makeup is when it comes to getting a job… all i care about is that you are able to get the job done and thats it. its not just about genetics and racism as you would like to say it is. these policies of shipping off jobs to foreign countries in combination with importing workers that are not citizens creates a destabilizing force on the economy to begin with and combining it with huge unemployment numbers only serves to compound the problem.

the issue here is not race at all.
its economic survival of our sovereign nation and its being put at very real risk here. we are headed towards being a nation of nothing but inherited money controlled by complete idiots who have never had to work a day in their life at one end and construction workers burger flippers and other such menial jobs that simply can not be outsourced overseas at the other.

i dont know about you, but living in a country where the only true domestic skilled labor is working for the government at various city county state and federal levels because there simply are no longer any such jobs in the private sector scares the holy hell out of me…

Mike says:

Re: Re: Re: A lot of assumptions here

For Indians, racism is ok as long as it is coming from Indians slandering other races (like Fraudwha does in his articles or numerous Indian CEOs do in the news).

But if any American tries to point out the massive fraud and corruption Indians in the U.S. are commiting, well then it’s racism.

They have to do this because they know they are beaten on facts and can’t refute them. It’s their only defense.

I’ve got news for India, Inc. and Fraudwha: no one in America cares if you call them a racist. Your con is exposed. The game is up.

Wakjob says:

Re: Re: A lot of assumptions here

That is not what the law says. Title 8, section 1182 – INADMISSIBLE ALIENS says ALL foreign workers are inadmissible if American workers are unemployed. Don’t make stuff up without finding what the actual law is. The law says ALL these foreign workers are to be deported now that Americans are out of work.

Dark Helmet (profile) says:

Re: Re:

“I can’t agree with you on this one, Mike. You can copyright anything. It doesn’t have to be accurate, just created. Fiction writers do it every day.”

Uh….WHAT??!! You’re suggesting that Apex created a FICTIONAL work agreement? A fictional internal company document? Why in the sweet hell would they do THAT?

jake_leone says:

99% had nothing to do with APEX, 1% that did wasn't racist

It is important to point out that 99% had nothing to do with APEX, 1% that did wasn’t racist and was posted by person from India.

And 3-sites were ordered shutdown. Only one of which uses racially derogatory phrases.

The notion that there is some group that posts or meets online, in secret, is pure fantasy. I am not affiliated with any such group, yet have been accused of being a guildy-thug.

The slippery slope is that this Libel, this slander, perpetrated by someone (?or group? 😉 ) against me, should then allow me to out the anonymous poster and then close-down his/her website (and a couple of other I don’t happen to like). Well that is exactly what happened in this case, can (all you pro-slavery people) see just how wrong it was to close down 3 whole websites?

So people in this debate should delude themselves into thinking that there is some small group you can shut-down, and then you never have think before you post again. And you actually have to construct (because the facts compiled speak plainly about h-1b) some reason why Indentured Servitude is okay and good for the United States.

Dolores says:

A question

Here’s a question nobody has ever answered, so far as I can tell. India’s population outnumbers ours by about 3 or 4 to one. And then there’s China. Phillipines, South America, all sorts of other places too. So, if we just fling open our job market, how many jobs is it going to take before these folks are satisfied? Because, they certain aren’t opening their doors wide to us. No siree, they have all sorts of protective barriers in place against that, and that isn’t going to change, WTO notwithstanding. So, at what point after we get done singing Kumbaya do Americans get hired? Yeah, I know, practically everybody wants to live here, it seems. Well, so do we.

SomeGuy (profile) says:

Re: A question

H1-Bs are for skilled workers. Not everyone in India or China can be qualified as “skilled.” Even if they all manage to get bachelor degrees, you would expect that their degrees are no great deal better than American degrees. In every case I’ve heard of, H-1B employees are paid the same as “domestic” employees. So they’re being paid the same for the same work. It seems to me that domestic workers, if they qualify for the job, are a better choice because the employer doesn’t have to go through the visa application process.

So the answer to “when do Americans get hired” is “when they qualify for the skilled jobs in question.”

Dolores says:

Re: Re: A question

That can’t be correct. Wasn’t it Azim Premji (Wipro) who called the H-1B visa the ‘outsourcing’ visa, and claimed to attain competitive business advantage by paying their folks around 25% less? And they can’t possibly be more qualified, just look at all the horror stories of ‘experts’ reading 101-level manuals and asking basic questions, and all the documented cases where the American workers were forced to train their replacements. If you’re a lousy worker, they show you the door, they don’t make you train the guy who follows you.

Mike says:

Re: Re: Re:2 Double Standards

“America does not have the talent”
— Azim Premji 2008

“India’s engineers are better than the best American engineers”
— Karin Karnik, NASSCOM 2003

“American grads are unemployable”
— Vineet Nayar, HCL India CEO 2009

No racism going on there, right? What goes around comes around India.

Wakjob says:

Re: Re: Re:2 Double Standards

If Indians are so brilliant then why has 13 years of importing millions of them brought the US economy to its knees? US economy was BOOMING when Americans were running it.

As for Vivek, he’s just being paid by NASSCOM to hype India so they can dump more of their desperate unemployed on our shores becuse they see $ here and they want to grab it.

Meanwhile, Bell Labs where C and UNIX were invented are now being turned into a shopping mall under Indian national Arun Netravalli’s brilliant guidance. While these armies of faking charlatans from India clean out our economy, they are destroying every tech institution we have.

STFU Dolores says:

Re: A question


You just don’t get it do you, you ignorant c*nt. No one here cares about your supremacist rants, you bit*h. If you choose to side with racists like the bloggers in question, you are free to do so obviously, under the First Amendment. But that doesn’t excuse the fact that the death threats Tunnel Rat constantly posted, violated the law. In case you didn’t know, posting death threats is a federal crime. So, STFU you ignorant imbeclie tw*t. You may now go f*ck yourself you racist c*nt.

Matt (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re: A question

No, that’s just the point. Mike is saying that the Court’s shutting down of the websites that posted the employment contract is a bad thing. Not okay. The bad kind of censorship. Like deleting this hateful, ugly, stupid, childish, and disgusting post would be.

Incidentally, in my view it is totally appropriate to confine the speech in different fora to language and topics that are appropriate to those fora. In this forum, the topic is whether the Court’s overreaching censorship was appropriate (not immigration,) and the language is supposed to be circumscribed by the terms of use.

STFU Dolores says:

Re: Re: Re: A question

It IS against the law to post death threats and incite violence against others (which Tunnel Rat routinely did on his blog) – it is a FEDERAL CRIME, in case you didn’t know that. But, it is NOT against the law to use profanity. So, THAT is why those blogs get taken down and my post doesn’t. So, it wasn’t just the employment contract that the blog contained, but more importantly, the blog contained DEATH THREATS, which you very conveniently choose to ignore and even condone. What part of that do you not get?? Talk about intellect and character, huh? I wonder what your take is on Tunnel Rat’s constant use of profanity in every single blog post, like “curry-scented slumdogs”, or “maderchod”, or “dothead”, or “Hindu-Nazi”?? Oh, I get it – you SUPPORT his racist agenda, and hence you condone and encourage it. Thank you for showing your true colors you bigoted c*nt. Ooohhh!!…..that’s right, I used the C-word again.

Dolores says:

Re: Re: Re:2 A question

All the issues you raise: alleged death threats, incitement of violence, profanity, ethnic slurs, etc., had NOTHING to do with the legal action that shut down Tunnel Rat’s web site. He was not shut down for any of those reasons. And, to call something a death threat, it has to be specific, not just implied or hinted at. ITGrunt was shut down for completely different reasons that should send a chill through any blogger who allows people to post. Stormfront and many worse websites remain up and running, btw. So, it’s not whether we find their speech odious or not. That’s irrelevant to whether or not they should be shut down. BTW many forums and blogs will censor personal attacks and profanity, if the person in charge decides to. Who is in charge here? Anyone?

Mike says:

Re: Re: A question

Supremicist rants? Hitler’s Mein Kampf is now the #1 best selling business book in Mumbai.

Where are the mass guest worker visa programs for 5 million Americans to go work in India? They don’t exist. Racists? That would be India, not America. If America were racist would we have let you in to begin with.

Why doesn’t Japan open its borders to foreign workers en masse the way America has? In fact, Japan is in the process of deporting foreign workers right now. The whole world is racist, get over it.

Derek Kerton (profile) says:

Re: A question

Have you been to India? China?

“they certain aren’t opening their doors wide to us”

Please visit a foreign country and let me know if you see any signs of American businesses being active there. You know: are they watching any Hollywood movies? Are they drinking any Coke? Do they drive any GM or Ford cars? Wear any Levi Jeans? Do they use Google for search? That kind of thing.

Then tell me when the last time you had a ride in a Mahindra car here in the US. Or the last time you used Baidu for a search. Or the last time you subscribed to Prime as your cellular phone company.

The reality is, those companies have been a target market for Western businesses for centuries, just as we’ve bought some of their commodities and used their labor. That’s called “trade” and economists look at it as a good thing, which brings UP both sides.

Instead of looking at a country with a large population as a big threat, why don’t you look at it like Coke looks at it: like a big opportunity, and a big market. It works both ways.

Similarly, California is a massive state with over 30 million people. We outnumber states like Rhode Island by factors much higher than 4 to one. Yet, somehow, Rhode Island manages to trade with us, operate in the same market, and survive. You are afraid of large populations, and your fear affects your judgement.

Dolores says:

Re: Re: A question

The difference is that California and Rhode Island are part of the same country, sharing a common language, similar culture, and similar legal system. The difficulty of pursuing legal redress across state lines is nothing compared to the difficulty of pursuing legal redress across national borders. Large populations are not a good thing in and of themselves: they breed hypercompetitiveness that can and does lead to corruption and other bad things. Even the WTO recognizes dumping as a bad thing, and labor dumping is no better than merchandise dumping. Too much can damage the economic ecosystem of a nation. California is crowded with high crime in many areas. Lower density areas tend to be much safer, cleaner, and nicer to live in. Western companies who dump America for the much vaunted Asian markets will find it difficult to maintain first world profit margins from customers with third world salaries.

Wakjob says:

Re: Re: A question

Trading with enemies causes world war. Greedy US businessmen in the 1930s thought they could safely sell scrap steel to Japan. England’s Rolls Royce sold aircraft engines to Hitler in the 1930s. We all know how that turned out. Where do you think the luftewaffe got the planes and engines to firebomb London?

In the process of trying to sell to our enemies, and in trying to provide them with jobs so they can buy our products, you are funding America’s destruction. You will be the first whinning and wondering how it happened when it comes.

WammerJammer (profile) says:

Free Speech

The sad thing about immigration is that unless you have lot’s of money and can go through the hoops here in the United States with an attorney and a support system here you will have a lot of problems.
Case in point: I called my local house cleaning service and got 2 wonderful people who spoke broken English, but well enough to understand. The couple was around 45 or so and had ran away from a dictatorship in their South American country.
The man was a Medical Doctor in his country with a thriving practice. He told me the story of making the mistake of agreeing with one of his patients that the current government was corrupt. The next thing he knows is he is running for his life.
What’s the point? You ask. I thought it was really sad that a trained Medical Doctor was cleaning my house. Only because the immigration dept. and the AMA decided that the colleges he went to were not certified by them so his Degree didn’t count. Wha????
He was good enough to practice medicine in his country but not good enough to practice here? He could not even test his skill and prove that he was a trained physician in the land of the free.

BdgBill (profile) says:

Re: Free Speech

You will forgive me if I would rather not be operated on by a doctor that earned his degree in a country where grades and degrees can be purchased if you know the right people. Where medical students did not have access to the latest technologies and techniques. Developing countries have hugely different standards than we do for many things including education.

Matt (profile) says:

Re: Free Speech

I can’t argue too strenuously, because the AMA’s monopoly on medschool certifications is silly and inefficient (and partly responsible for the high cost of US medical care,) but it is worth noting that the standards in most countries for medical education are _much_ lower than those in the US. Americans can easily spend 12 years in post-secondary education and OJT before they are permitted to practice with a Board certification in a specialty. In the EU, it can be done in substantially less, sometimes as few as 5 years. The same is true in other areas – UK solicitors can join the ranks after 4 years of post-secondary education, US lawyers require at least 7, etc. etc. etc.

One could argue that the extra training years do not actually improve the quality of the practitioner, but the standards are clearly different.

Mike says:

Re: Re: Free Speech

But it’s ok for doctors, lawyers, politicians and others to have labor monopolies on their industries, right? It’s just that we can’t allow American programmers to have that because they were getting more prestige than the doctors, lawyers, politicians and other entrenched elites, and the elites didn’t like that. Hence the need to flood the IT labor market with the worst workers in the world from one of the pooest, most incapable countries on earth – hence converting IT workers’ prestige into a joke by slapping the India, Inc. label on it. if the world laughs at India, how much better for the elites if all IT is connected with the Indian label.

That’s the real reason for all of this.

Mike says:

Re: Re: Free Speech

Why are doctors still making $400/hr? Why are lawyers making $300K a year? Why do congresspeople make $200K a year? They are all overpaid! But we’re not saying that and brining in millions of workers in those professions to replace them because they are ‘cheaper’, are we? Why not? If it works for IT it will work for every other sector too.

Oh, wait, what was I thinking – those are elites who have lobbies like AMA and ABA protecting their jobs so they don’t have to worry about being replaced by cheaper labor.

And last time I checked I didn’t see any politicians making $200K a year creating any new $1.4 trillion industries for America.

A good stock broker who brings in $3 million a year for his or her firm gets paid $1 million a year in commissions. Why shouldn’t an ace programmer who brings in $20 million in form of a software product make $200K. Can’t have any of that. Have to make sure they only make $40K if they can find a job at all – can’t be rewarding really productive Americans too much, you know.

BdgBill (profile) says:


It is possible to be anti-immigration without being racist. You do not have to be a racist to see that the current system of simply allowing people to walk across our borders and setup housekeeping is seriously screwed up.

I would be all for the H-1B’s if illegal immigration was completely shut down.

These anti-immigration sites and blogs only hurt their own cause by using racial slurs. Most people simply label them as racists ad move on. Shutting them down gives them far more symapthy and attention then they ever got while operating.

To get back on topic…Free Speech is Free Speech. You can’t pick and choose. Protecting someone elses right to use racial slurs also protects your right to criticize the president. The Civil Liberties Union has often found itself in the position of defending racists, satanists, convicts and all manner of human scum in an effort to protect laws that give us all rights and freedoms.

If you need any proof of this just look at the patriot act that was supposed to be all about protecting us against terrorism but is used primarily against Americans in cases that have nothing to do with terrorism.

Friend of Tunnel Rat says:

What Vivek Wadhwa and Apex Technology Group, Inc. are saying is this:

“Challenge us and we will hunt you down and silence you. You have no right to oppose our outsourcing and offshoring agenda. If you do, we will call you a racist and xenophobe, and have you blacklisted so that you can never work again. We call the shots now. This is how things are done where we come from.”

That should bother every American.

PayAttention says:

For Vivek this is personal, so he can't see the forest through the trees

While I don’t support importing guest workers in any capacity during a time very high unemployment in high tech, I do agree with this author’s reverence for free speech. Please keep in mind that the Apex lawsuit wasn’t about hate speech, but rather about a labor agreement which was posted on a website. Apex alleges that their copyright was infringed, and at the same time alleges libel. I don’t know about you, but this inconsistency bugs the heck out of me. The main point is that the precedence points to the material being ordered removed until the lawsuit could be settled. Shutting down the websites first was wrong.

If you don’t agree with me, maybe after someone decides to SLAPP your website, you will.

Mike says:

Owed a living

America is supposed to be a place where those who work the hardest and produce the most get rewarded and those who don’t don’t get rewarded.

What is America today?

Up until late 1998 when the visa caps were raised, Silicon Valley was 98% white American males. It’s that demographic who created the IT industry long before the rest of the world wanted in. So what did we do? We took those jobs away from the Americans who worked very very hard to create them, and gave them all away to millions of people from a 3rd world country who didn’t have to lift a finger to create them. The world doesn’t owe everyone a job, but America does owe those who create the next big booming industry jobs.

Why is it always Americans who have to bear the brunt of doing all the hard work to create every new industry but it is always other nations who reap the rewards? In 1998 American IT workers were promised that these millions of foreign workers would only be here TEMPORARILY and would GO HOME after the boom. They are not only still here, but now they have TAKEN OVER. The media (such as this website) conveniently changed the story to “global competition” once the workers were here. China and India (and Japan) are the most protectionist countries in the world and they are booming. America used to be protectionist and used to be booming.

Not any more.

Globalization is a subtle new form of communsim – giving good jobs to countries that did not have to work to create them. India does not deserve America’s jobs because India is an unproductive nation.

When Americans were running Silicon Valley in 1998 the U.S. economy was booming. Now that Indians have taken over Silicon Valley and won’t hire Americans, the U.S. economy isn’t doing so well, is it?

Import 3rd world labor, you get a 3rd world economy. Time for full deportation now and give the jobs back to those who worked so hard to create them originally – Americans.

The world doesn’t owe India a living. Let them go home and compete from their own soil like all the other countries do instead of occupying America with a discriminatory invasion force of over 4 million workers.

Derek Kerton (profile) says:

Re: Owed a living

Wow. You are wrong on so many levels, its tiring to contemplate.

Um…were you in Silicon Valley in 1998? Because I was. And it was NOT 98% white Americans. Do you have a source for that claim?

“Globalization is a subtle new form of communism”
Communism is a system of government control/ownership of the means of production. Globalization is system where corporations can access a free global market for goods and labor.

“The media (such as this website) conveniently changed the story to “global competition”
Not Mike. Not me. My Econ degree in 1987-91 taught me that I would have to succeed in a globally competitive world. That has been my understanding for my entire adult life: compete in a global market and succeed. To deny the existence of life outside our borders seems xenophobic.

“America used to be protectionist”
You probably aren’t aware that the League of Nations developed the modern concept of passports during the 1920s.

Are you familiar with “Ellis Island”? They asked immigrants 29 questions, and then they were basically American. They did turn back the sick and insane.

Do you know what is inscribed on the Statue of Liberty?
“From her beacon-hand Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command…Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

Is this “used to be protectionist” America that you wish to revive?

“When Americans were running Silicon Valley in 1998 the U.S. economy was booming. Now that Indians have taken over Silicon Valley and won’t hire Americans, the U.S. economy isn’t doing so well, is it?”
– stupid non-sequitur. Not even remotely causal.

“Import 3rd world labor, you get a 3rd world economy”
No, you get cheaper products. You also will need to be more productive than them if you wish to earn more. Tough. Work hard, compete, be productive, succeed, America. Fair for them, fair for me.

“[jobs for] those who worked so hard to create them originally – Americans.”
What did I do to create my first job that an Indian kid didn’t do? I have all kinds of advantages over an Indian. Why do I need unfair advantages, too? I would only need that if I were too lazy to hustle or to incompetent to be productive.

“The world doesn’t owe India a living.”
…but you think it owes Americans a living? The world owes NO ONE a living.

Wow. And you vote? Damn.

Dolores says:

Re: Re: Owed a living

No American is demanding a job or a living. What we want is the right to compete for skilled jobs in our own country. In the vast majority of cases, once a business decides to file for an H-1B, there is NO requirement to post the job where an American can see it and apply. If an American finds out about the job and applies, there is no legal requirement to look at the American’s application. Not only that, if there is an American currently doing the job, it is legal to displace him. People think that companies are bound by law to look for Americans first before deciding that they need to look outside the country, but that’s just not true.

Dolores says:

Re: Re: Owed a living

And do you understand that the poem on the statue of Liberty is just that – a poem. It’s not any sort of law. In a modern nation, immigration laws are framed with the well being of the citizens in mind. And, they turned back people on Ellis Island for MANY reasons, including violation of the labor laws in effect then.

Wakjob says:

Re: Re: Owed a living

Yes, i was in silicon valley in 1998. In fact I lived and worked there for 16 years (including at apple and on playstaion at Sony. You didn’t).

The mass invasion of foreiners in silicon valley happened in early 1999 and 2001 as a result of the massive guest worker increases in oct. 1998 and april 2000, respectively. I am a software engineer of 20 years and I can assure you, before that it was 98% white american males. How long have you lived in the valley and do you even work in software?

Communism is a system of “from each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs – as in taking IT jobs from Americans who created them and giving them to lazy 3rd world countries which didn’t – such as India and China. Gorbachev laid out his plan for globalization in his 1989 book “Perestroika – new thinking for our country and the world”. I suggest you read it becsuse you are being deceived. Don’t make the mistake of thinking communism is only governmental. Globalization was all planned by the soviets. Also google “communist goals 1963” and see how oneof their major goals since the 60s was free trade and movement of people – so they could coke here and get OUR tech which they need in order to build their military industry so they can attack us. You are sorely mistaken.

For 50 years our foefathers who had to experience the result of free trade (WW2) would not allow trade with certain other countries becuase they knew from experience it would cause world war. But you have forgotten that lesson. There was a reason we didnt trade with India or china or Russia in any large manner before 1998 – because it is dangerous to do so. But you, like most aamericans think everyone is our friend now.

And of course they taught you globalization in college – the professors were all communist and wanted you to think it was ok to trade with enemies. Even Gorbachev was a professor of business at Northwestern U after the fall of the soviet union. What do you suppose he taught in his ‘business’ classes – globalization of course. And you being naive bought it hook, line, and sinker. You’ve been brainwashed by enemies of America and you dont even know it.

Some inscription on the statue of liberty is not the same as govt policy. It was a gift from France for crying out loud. Most of America’s policies were closed for most of the 20th century – the few times were werent has been disastrous 1906-1920 caused the great depression and world war 2, ted kennedy’s 1965 titdalwave caused the economic mess of the 70s, and the flood which began in 1998 caused the mess we are in now. WW3 is likely to follow. Let’s see how much you like foreign nations when they come and blast your country to smithereens.

Americs is already more productive than than the 3rd world. US GDP is seven times that of India despite India having four times as much labor. indian workers are ranked 54th in a UN/ILO report in 2008. That’s why American workers should be paid more – they are massively more productive. And it’s kind of hard to compete when you are being kept out of the job market by some angry aindian who resents white people becsue of some 200-year old hangup they have about the British. Learn some history. Americans are being kept out of the job market by foreigners – deliberately.

Is the US better off now with cheaper products, or back when products were expensive but everyone could afford to buy them. Bottom-feeding is no way to run an economy.

Americans created IT. India never even saw a keyboard until 1989. From 1978-1998 thrre were very very few foreingers in IT in America. All those jobs and companies were created by Americans. indians did nothing to build those companoes. Yet in 1998 those jobs started going to walk-in Indians by the millions. You have advantages because your forefathers worked hard to build America and give you those advanatages, not becsuse of some accident.

Why should Walk-in Indian workers be given the fruits of 500 years of civilization built by Europeans when Indians didn’t contribute anything to it over those 500 years?

You are a communist – you think everyone should have equal everything regardless of who worked and who didn’t.

How is working hard 16 hours a day for 15 years an “unfair advantage”. Someone works hard and produces, they have EARNED the right to keep their position – not have some newcomer right off the plane who has never worked a day in their life step into their job and take over.

Employ Americans says:

Wadhwa hypocrite - Censors appropriate comments

Wadhwa – Censors appropriate feedback that does not fan his racist claims.

Wadhwa’s hypocritical journalism selectively censors appropriate feedback on Tech Crunch and Business Week that does not fan the flames of his racist agenda.

The censored feedback below illustrates this author’s point that Wadhwa avoids and/or twists facts to advance his destructive agenda. His divisive opinions are and impede free speech . His questionable studies are factually inaccurate, and likely funded by biased parties.

The web of corruption includes

– Greedy corporations and other financial beneficiaries of H1b legislation

– Biased media coverage studies in media reliant on corporate ad $

– Corrupt politicians who pass special purpose legislation that only benefit corporate greed in exchange for campaign contributions and media coverage.

This deadly corruption cocktail reinforces egregious US guest worker laws that deprive Americans the ability to compete for jobs in the USA .

I disagree with the author’s opinion of American job entitlement and applaud the author’s good fortune to be employed in today’s economy.

Sadly, my experience is different. I was laid off from my high tech job and replaced by multiple foreign visa workers. A top performer with the world’s largest high tech firms for over 15 years, makes no difference that I have a solid job history, advanced tech degree (from top school) earned at night while working full time. State of the art skills with Dean’s list honors. Despite a tireless job search, doing everything possible, every day – hundreds of applications, networking, etc, etc. I am shocked and very sad to mark the one-year anniversary of my unemployment.

The egregious laws governing H-1B and L-1 visas deprive Americans the right to COMPETE for jobs in the USA. Not the right to jobs .

Don’t believe me, check for hundreds of H-1B job alerts for US jobs only advertised in India .

Since these jobs are exclusively earmarked for offshore workers, US workers cannot compete for these jobs.


Wadhwa censored the following Techcrunch comment. Why?


Wadhwa’s focus on TR’s comments has NOTHING to do with the court ruling to shockingly shut down 3 websites. Why? Because a website linked to a former Apex employee’s unfavorable post about the company and posted an employment contract on an outside site. TR blog posts had nothing to do with the lawsuit.

Wadhwa’s negligent article tries to incite anger among readers and uses the lawsuit as an excuse to express HIS racist opinions.

Like cancer, the H-1B fraud and abuse has gone undetected for a long-time. Then, the economy tanked. Unemployment is over 10% – yet foreign workers continue to flood the job market and deprive Americans the right to compete for jobs in our own country?

Self-appointed best and brightest, talent knows no borders and Americans are far smarter, technical and state of the art than your egos lead you to believe.

I don’t care if the foreign worker who replaced me was black or black, from Mumbai or Mars. corporate greed, and political corruption were the reasons I was laid off, NOT RACE .

Wadhwa, stop playing the race card because you feel you’re backed into a corner. The facts do not back up your opinion, your racist statements are dangerous. Your deliberate censorship of contrary opinions restricts free speech. You do a disservice to your profession, country, and betray H-1b workers.

Mike says:


Every immigrationw wave to the U.S. since 1900 has led to recession or depression. The late 1998-2000 wave was the biggest in U.S. history – bigger than the one from 1906-1920. Historical facts do not lie. Here is the history of immigration and recession to America since 1900:

1906-1920 – Huge wave from Europe – Great Depression in 1929.

1965 – Ted Kennedy’s Immigration Reform Act – Big recession 1973-1981

1990 – H-1B started – recession 1991-1993

Oct. 1998 – H-1B caps raised form 65,000 to 115,000 per year – collapse in 2001.

Apri 2000 – H-1B caps raised from 115,000 per year to 195,000 per year – collapse in 2008.

The fake “recovery” in the mid 2000’s was no recovery – just cheap Fed credit making up for Americans losing their jobs.

America was built by Americans. Every buildup leads to immigrant takers who come in when times are good, strip the economy, then leave when times are bad – as they are now.

84% of the current U.S. population was born here. Do you seriously expect us to believe that 84% of the natives live off the work of the other 16% immigrants? Come on, stop being either a liar or delusional. Immigration is a disaster for America.

China and India don’t have open borders. Did I mention they are booming.

Free Trade caused WW2 – America in the 1920s sold its scrap steel to Japan and England’s Rolls Royce sold aircraft engines and factories to Hitler. We all know how that turned out.

Mike Masnick (profile) says:

Re: Migrants

Every immigrationw wave to the U.S. since 1900 has led to recession or depression.

Um. Correlation. Causation. Look up the difference.

And even your “facts” are questionable. Believing that a very small number of H-1Bs resulted in recession? Wow.

America was built by Americans.

Nearly all of whom immigrated here.

Every buildup leads to immigrant takers who come in when times are good, strip the economy, then leave when times are bad – as they are now.

This is the most ridiculous statement I have seen. Where did your ancestors come from? Where did the ancestors of every top employer in the US come from? Your ignorance is astounding.

Immigration is a disaster for America.

Then why do you not go back to where you came from?

Free Trade caused WW2 – America in the 1920s sold its scrap steel to Japan and England’s Rolls Royce sold aircraft engines and factories to Hitler. We all know how that turned out.

Your economic and historical ignorance is astounding. Please. Learn something.

Dark Helmet (profile) says:

Re: Re: Migrants

“Free Trade caused WW2 – America in the 1920s sold its scrap steel to Japan and England’s Rolls Royce sold aircraft engines and factories to Hitler. We all know how that turned out.

Your economic and historical ignorance is astounding. Please. Learn something.”

Now hold on. That guy is an economic moron, but both of the claims he stated about how American/British companies traded with the Axis powers are absolutely true. And they’re not even the big deal instances, like with Ford, IBM, and everyone trading with IG Farben and their american subsidiaries.

So, historically, what’s the issue?

Wakjob says:

Re: Re: Re: Migrants

Historically the issue is free trade with enemies causes war. iBM worked for the Nazis. So did Ford. Union Bank funded them. We sold steel to Japan. rolls Royce sold aircraft engines to Hitler.

Today we sell oir mfg. Tech to China. And our advanced weapons to India – deluding ourselves that they are our allies. Both countries harbor centuries-old grievances against the west, much as Hitler’s Germany harbored deep resentments against the Treaty of Versaille.

The old historical resentments from China/India and most of the rest of the world are about to come back and haunt us. What’s worse we are funding it by trading with them.

Those who do not learn from history…..

Derek Kerton (profile) says:

Re: Migrants

Dude, that is inane.

That’s correlation, not causation…you know what, screw that, it’s not even correlation!

Look at your immigration dates, say 1906-1920, then a depression in 1929. According to you, one followed the 23 years.

Then you have your claimed immigration wave in 1990, followed by recession in 1991, a year after.

WTF? It takes 23 years in one case, and 1 year in the other. Could it just be that both are cyclical or may even be random? And that you just point to a wave of immigration, await the next recession, and incorrectly see causation? Well, at least that fits an anti-immigration agenda…so long as you’re willing to forgo the use of reason.

And for your 1973 recession and 1981, too. You blame two recessions on one wave of immigration. Have you ever heard of OPEC? Those recessions aren’t exactly mysteries.

Wakjob says:

Re: Re: Migrants

It is definitely not random – 1929-1920 == 9 years, not 26. Recessions can follow immigration waves by 1-10 years depending in the size and other factors. Yet the data is there – every immigration wave to the US has been followed by recession. Except for the ’91-93 recession and the VERY brief one in 1987 due to the market crash, the US experienced booms from 1983-2001 – all as a result of Reagan’s PROTECTIONIST policies. When Japan wanted to sell cars here, areagan told them they would have to build them here AND use American workers to do so. How many Indian bodyshops today are we telling have to employ Americans? NONE!

James says:


Want to see some real racism? Check out this racist Indian site:

“Indianness”? What if an American put up a site saying “Whiteness”? What would happen.

Why does the media get so bent out of shape about Americans who try to expose the rampant ethnic cleansing India, Inc. is doing in American IT but it doesn’t care one whit about all the Hitler-like racism that Indians conduct on American citizens every day?

Unless of course NASSCOM or Wipro is paying sites like techdirt to print such article calling any American who wants U.S. immigration laws enforced “racist”.

James says:


And speaking of racist laws, I’ve got news for TechDirt and for the rest of the world: America’s laws ARE racist and DO favor Americans first. EVERY single foreign worker in America in times of recession is an INADMISSIBLE ALIEN under the law. IT’S THE LAW AND ALL FOREIGN GUEST WORKERS SHOULD BE DEPORTED UNTIL U.S. CITIZENS HAVE FULL EMPLOYMENT:

> Part II > § 1182
§ 1182. Inadmissible aliens

(5) Labor certification and qualifications for certain immigrants
(A) Labor certification

(i) In general, any alien who seeks to enter the United States for the purpose of performing skilled or unskilled labor is inadmissible, unless the Secretary of Labor has determined and certified to the Secretary of State and the Attorney General that—

(I) there are not sufficient workers who are able, willing, qualified
(or equally qualified in the case of an alien described in clause (ii)) and available at the time of application for a visa and admission to the United States and at the place where the alien is to perform such skilled or unskilled labor, and

(II) the employment of such alien *** will not adversely affect the wages and working conditions of workers in the United States *** similarly employed. (ii) Certain aliens subject to special rule For purposes of clause (i)

(I), an alien described in this clause is an alien who—
(I) is a member of the teaching profession, or
(II) has exceptional ability in the sciences or the arts.

Proud American says:

Re: Who to Contact to Enforce Inadmissible Aliens Law

You point makes 100% sense. Who enforces this law? Which organization is responsible for enforcing this law and how can we report inadmissible aliens? Any class action suits, pending litigation?

Anyone aware of how to report inadmissible aliens and to whom? Any precedent case

jgo (user link) says:

Apex can't have it both ways

Either what was posted was their contract or it was not. If it was their contract, they should stand by it, admit it. If it wasn’t their contract, then they have a case for defamation.

I don’t like the terms “STFU Dolores” mentions. OTOH, it is true that a large proportion of H-1B and L-1 grantees are from India, and that the proportion of illegal aliens from India in the USA is up as a result, and some managers and guest-workers and ministers and ambassadors appear to be irrationally biased against native US citizens.

Filling out “Mike’s” time-line:

1965: Hart-Celler-Kennedy Immigration “Reform” Act (went into effect 1968-07-01)

1973-1981: big recession; stagflation; price controls; fuel lines

1980: Lester Thurow reported “a depression from 1929 to 1940, a war from 1941 to 1945, a recession in 1949, a war from 1950 to 1953, recessions in 1954, 1957-1958, and 1960-1961, a war from 1965 to 1973, a recession in 1969-1970, a severe recession in 1974-1975, and another recession probable in 1980… we need to face the fact that our economy and our institutions will not provide jobs for everyone who wants to work.”

1982 January: body shopping begins explosive growth due to changes in tax laws; at first it’s out-sourcing/contracting within the USA

1980s: Timbuk3 released “The Future’s So Bright I’ve Got to Wear Shades”; popular “success” movies included “Working Girl” and “The Secret of My Success” (the last a bit of a riff on the 1950s flick “How to Succeed in Business without Really Trying”)

1986: NSF says they want cheaper PhDs and proposes more student visas and creation of an additional visa program as a means; and projects a short-fall of 675K STEM workers without any evidence; tax rule 1706 encourages body shopping

1986-11-06: Simpson-Mazzoli Immigration Reform & Control Act grants massive amnesty, creates visa waiver program, drastically alters visa priority scheme, reduces privacy of US citizens, encourages the “anchor baby” gambit

1987: stock market crash; “As late as 1987, 60K graduates were competing for about 25K open positions, according to Janet Ruhl, author of _The Programmers Survival Guide_” — Margie Wylie _CNET_ “The skills shortage that isn’t: When the rising tide floats employees’ boats, employers proclaim disaster”

1989: Berlin wall comes down; federal government dumps thousands of scientists and engineers onto the job markets, many of them remain unemployed until at least 1998

1990: H-1B hatched (effective 1991-10-01); body shopping crosses borders; recession 1991-1993 followed by “jobless recovery”; many baby boomers reaching what usually are prime earning years when earnings are used to educate and otherwise aid maturing children, and save and invest for retirement

1998: IT lay-off announcements spike, dot-com shake-out begins

1998 October: H-1B caps temporarily raised form 65,000 to 115,000 per year

2000 January 01: Y2K bust, dot-com shake-out peaks

2000 March 10: stock market crash

2000 April: lobbyist Joel Stewart declared “even in a depressed economy, employers who favor aliens have an arsenal of legal means to reject all U.S. workers who apply.”

2000 October: H-1B caps temporarily raised from 115,000 per year to 195,000 per year

2001 April: general US job market crash

2001 November: jobless recovery begins

2003: United States-Chile Free Trade Agreement and US-Singapore FTA set aside 1,400 H-1B1 visas for nationals of Chile and 5,400 for nationals of Singapore

2004: H-1B cap drops back to 65K (58,200+1400 Chile+5400 Singapore), but H-1B Visa Reform Act of 2004/Consolidated Appropriations Act of 2005, added 20K exemptions for those with master’s and doctor’s degrees from US colleges and universities, signed into law on 2004 December 8, while retaining open ended exemptions for an unlimited number of employees of federal, state, and local government, US colleges and universities, and non-profit research centers. (Most of the Chile and Singapore set-asides go unused and are added to the next year’s 58,200 general allotment.)

2005 May: US-Australia FTA created E-3 visa with limit of 10,500 per year

2006: Sona Shah demonstrated to congressional committee that recruiters are eager to place/hire bright candidate right up to the time they learn the candidate is a US citizen

2007 May: prominent immigration law firm teaches that the goal is to avoid advertising jobs where many able and willing US citizens will become aware of them, and that a gauntlet of filters and pretexts should be created to declare all US applicants either “unqualified” or unwilling to work (at well below local market compensation); immigration lawyer association supports them, declaring resentment that they should even have to go through this “charade” rather than simply hiring the cheaper, more pliant foreign workers with more flexible professional ethics straight-away

2008 April 09: DHS extended Optional Practical Training (OPT) from 12 months to 29 months, to give foreign students plenty of time to set up a pretext for additional time in the USA on a student visa or multiple cycles to get an H-1B visa, while displacing thousands of bright, knowledgeable, industrious, creative US students from these internship and employment opportunities

TaxiDriver (profile) says:

Re: Apex can't have it both ways

Great Post! You left out a couple of things:

1992-1994: The term “downsizing” was coined. IBM lays off 128,000 workers. Massive unemployment in the tech sector. George H. Bush loses incumbency due to economy, saying “I personally don’t think the economy is all that bad.”

1995: Rapid growth of Internet creates new surging demand – tech employees get their jobs back. Dotcom boom begins.

jake_leone says:

The falacy that because are ancenstors are immigrants, we are all immigrants

If this is taken to its logical conclusion, then even Native Americans are immigrants, since they came here 10,000 years and displaced sasquatch and wooly mammoth.

Further it is unconstitutional to pass the transgressions of our ancenstors onto the current generation. This is an old-world concept.

But I do support helping Native Americans, they are desparately poor in some places, and they do need our help. We cannot turn our back on our fellow citizens.

We should not use a saying as an excuse to act like lemmings and jump off the cliff, in regards to immigration issues.

We need an immigration policy and enforcement in the United States, there is simply too much at stake for our progeny.

Sharon Bell says:

Can't believe these people have made their way here

I can’t believe the ignorance and stupidity of the people posting here. Did they declare a public holiday in the deep south and tell these people to come here?

They even got Matoloff — a university professor to post garbage on TechDirt! He should take his followers back to his bunker.

Dolores says:

Re: Can't believe these people have made their way here

Why the dig at the deep south? Why is it ok to talk that way about Americans, but anyone questioning the wisdom of bringing in tens of thousands of superfluous foreign guestworkers during a time of 10%+ unemployment rate gets shouted down as a racist?

Scott Davis says:

Re: Re: Re: Can't believe these people have made their way here


I wouldn’t bother to even try reasoning with scum like these. Like you rightly said, they are probably trailer-trash, typing away their ignorant bigoted rants. Just ignore them. Don’t waste your keystrokes – they are simply not worth it. They sure remind me of that South Park episode (“Dey Tuk Err Jaabs”):

Dolores says:

Re: Re: Re:2 Can't believe these people have made their way here

You two don’t even read what you’re writing if you are calling us names like this. This is the ugliest form of stereotypical, bigotted thinking there is, and it’s coming from you. Just spouting unthinking, outdated labels because somebody dared to challenge an assertion made by your side. Ugly, ugly, ugly. Do you really think that American labor rights activists will get scared and back down because you fling insults at us? No, it just tells us that the wrong people are on the stage, and our turn has come. America’s well being depends on having the courage to fight the corporate fat cat agenda of mercenary labor arbitrage, and that would not be in your skill set. You’d have to learn basic math first.

Mike says:

Re: Re: Re: Can't believe these people have made their way here

I love the way the libs and open border crowds as well as the immigrants themselves try to portray any American who opposes immigration as some “inbred redneck from the south”. 78% of Americans wants less immigration. And the historical data since 1900 proves immigration causes economic decline. Rednecks don’t look at historical data. Ratuonal, educated people do.

The facts and disastrous economy prove that logical, reasoning people would be against more immigration. No one be,ieves your false characterizations anymore.

And if hurtling insults at someone is the best argument for immigration that you can come up with, you’ve already lost the argument.

jake_leone says:

More falacy, I am not from the south

Moreover, I am passionate about this issue because I am against human trafficking.

You (I mean your arguments) really don’t hold water.

Because bigotry is not an argument.

If you can stick to creating a logical argument, instead of engaging in proto-bigotry (bigotry with little cultural maturity), I think you could be more persuasive.

equal opportunity says:

Some great studies on H1b

From the Obama administration:
The U.S. government estimates that 21% of H-1B visa petitions are in violation of H-1B program rules — ranging from technical violations to fraud — based on the investigation of a representative sample.
A newly available report on the study, drafted by the Office of Fraud Detection and National Security, cites one of the most common violations as businesses that did not pay a “prevailing wage” to the H-1B beneficiary, meaning the going salary rate for a job in a specific market.

From New York University – Stern School of Business:
Globalization is wonderful, and does no harm anywhere, that’s the line we’ve been fed. But a new study, titled “H-1B Visas, Offshoring, and the Wages of US Information Technology Workers” by Prasanna B. Tambe of New York University – Stern School of Business and Lorin M. Hitt of University of Pennsylvania – The Wharton School aims to dispel “the myth that globalization generates no losers,” the authors state. *

Our estimates indicate that H-1B admissions at the current levels are associated with a 5-6% drop in wages for computer programmers and systems analysts. Offshoring appears to lower the wages of a slightly broader class of IT workers, including IT managers, by about 3%.

From the AFL-CIO:
“Employers often set lower salaries by: selecting a survey source with the lowest salaries, misclassifying experienced employees as entry-level, giving an H-1B visa holder a lower job title than [his or her] work requires, or citing wages for a low-cost area of the country while the H-1B holder is unlawfully transferred to a higher-cost area.”

Even Vivek Wadhwa:
“This whole concept of shortages is bogus; it shows a lack of understanding of the labor pool in the USA,” Videk Wadhwa, a professor at Duke University’s Master of Engineering Management Program, said to Baseline Magazine in 2008. Wadhwa also rejected the shortage notion based on wages.

“It doesn’t add up. We live in a free economy,” Wadhwa told Baseline. “If we were sitting in a government-controlled economy it would be one thing, but in a free economy what happens … when shortages begin to develop is that prices rise and the money compensates for the shortage.”

From a Rochester University Study:
There is no shortage of STEM graduates, but a shortage of jobs.

Derek Kerton (profile) says:

Re: Some great studies on H1b

Your second paragraph cites the Wharton School as dispelling “the myth that globalization generates no losers,”

Which competent person claimed that there are no losers? Anyone who suggests that globalization ONLY has benefits is just as ridiculous as those that claim it ONLY has costs.

Policy debates and choices usually have some amount of benefits and some amount of costs, and the two must be considered to try to arrive at some maximization of net social benefit, or some other policy goals.

So, of course, globalization has losers. The most obvious ones would be people who sit on their behinds and don’t work as hard as the foreigners with whom we now must compete. Or those that, despite the great education opportunities in this country, haven’t raised their skills above those of the average Indonesian. Of course, there are losers.

Don’t misinterpret me to be saying everyone hurt by globalization is lazy, either. That’s not what I said. Many good workers will also be hurt by the additional competition. But for those of us who actually believe in competition, the lower prices for goods and services and more competitive human resources lead to net social outcomes that are better than closing our borders. So while a good US laborer might earn less income, she would STILL be able to buy more goods and services because prices are lower.

So it sounds like the studies you quote have debunked a myth that no one claimed to be true. Good job taking down the strawman.

equal opportunity says:

Re: Re: Some great studies on H1b

Derek, the H1b program was created and is designed to fill a void in which there are no US workers available. It is not designed to create competition in the US for jobs. If competition is the real reason, why not have an unlimited number of visas for all occupations? We should have an open competition for every job in the US if that is the case. There is no strawman here being discredited; the entire reason for the H1b visa (desperate shortage of workers) is being shot down. The myth is that H1bs fill jobs that are specialized and impossible to fill with local labor; the truth is H1bs are used to lower wages.

Wakjob says:

Re: Re: Some great studies on H1b

I don’t think you can call someone like me who worked 16 hours a day and wrote 20 successful commercial software products a “loser”. I’ve been writing code since I was 15. If all those immigrants are so hard working then why isn’t the US economy booming the way it was when we were running it? Obviously they aren’t working very hard. I’ve worked in a lot of software companies with lots of immigrants and I have never seen one of them stay past 6 or work late. This myth that immigrants are hard working is a fraud. Most of them just want to show up 9-5, live off American VC $ until the company collapses, and then go home. The same decade they have been here is the same decade innovation has stopped dead. Not exactly what you would call hard-working. These people are charlatan parasites here to drain us and that is exactly what they doing.

Raji says:

A racist is a racist! And that is what Tunnel Rat was. Apex may have filed a case for a particualr violation, but when Tr came under the DoJ radar they clearly realised there was more to it than the Apex case. The fact is that there is a thin line b/w freedom of speech and vitriolic hate that TR spewed. And in the balance what TR was doing spreading hatred and fuelling violence by showing one particular community in a crude racist light and using that to justify his apparent cause – that of fighting for the rights of American workers. Sorry – no can do – you can;t have it both ways. You want to fight for rights – you do it the right way – not by inciting violence, celebrating killing, and targeting with hate one particular community!!

Wkajob says:

Re: Re:

In India you have to be an Indian citizen to work there with very few exceptions. Google “IBM India”, hit Images, and see how many white American IT workers you see working there. none! Not a single one! Then go to YT and search on “An unhappy new yorker in India” – watch as the Indian worker at the ticket window slams the window just as the black American steps up. Or as a manager at Cisco put it when an American worker there inquired why only Indians were being hired, “Look around and match the color scheme!”

Americans are the least racist people on earth.

jake_leone says:

D.O.J. had nothing to do with shutting down TR's site

The United States Department of Justice did not shutdown Tunnel Rat’s site. What occured was a an order, given by a judge, in response to a private-law firms request, to shutdown 3 web-sites.

The reason given was that they had links to a posting by an Indian Citizen, detailing the abusive contract by the private company APEX.

If D.O.J. had tried something like this, the ACLU would have been all over this case, and D.O.J. would have lost.

Freedom of Speech, in the United States, protects all speech, including speech which we disagree with. This prevents a tyranny of the majority, trampling the rights of the minority.

Remember, part of what made 18th century slavery possible was that slaves were not given the ability to read, write, and speak publicly.

U.S. citizens know, whether we are on the freeway, in a public place, that violence in response to the political demonstration, is the crime. Violence is the crime, not the speech, in the United States.

george mccall says:

Website Shutdown

With all due respect, your defense defies the most common logic and common sense. In your own words:

“The sites are undoubtedly racist and despicable. Some of the posts are, clearly, hate speech, and inciting violence against certain individuals.”

I believe most rational, intelligent people would agree
that if its against the law in the physical world, then it
should also be against the law in cyberspace. Websites that
promote hate-speech, race-based violence, and straight racism have no place in public discourse and should be removed.

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