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Sued Over Twitter Message? Can You Defame Someone In 140 Characters Or Less?
from the sue-first,-ask-questions-later dept
Tom writes in to alert us that a woman in Chicago has been sued for defamation by the company that manages her apartment over a Twitter message. The message she put on Twitter read:
"Who said sleeping in a moldy apartment was bad for you? Horizon realty thinks it's okay."And, rather than address a concern of one of their residents, the company brought out the lawyers, and sued for over $50,000. A little investigation reveals that the woman had all of 20 followers, which makes you question just how much actual damage was done by this message.
Still, for my money, the best single paragraph/statement about Horizon Group Management has to be the following one, in the Chicago Sun-Times, quoting Jeffrey Michael, speaking for Horizon Group (and a member of the family that runs it):
"We're a sue first, ask questions later kind of an organization," he said, noting that the company manages 1,500 apartments in Chicago and has a good reputation it wants to preserve.I'm curious as to how being a "sue first, ask questions later kind of organization" meshes with having "a good reputation it wants to preserve." I'd argue that (1) suing a tenant of a meaningless tweet (and drawing much more attention to the complaint) and (2) claiming that you're a "sue first, ask questions later kind of organization" in the national media are going to do a hell of a lot more damage to any "good reputation" (if it existed in the first place) than some random woman with 20 followers bitching about mold in her apartment.
Reader Comments
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Im wondering what kind of good name they really have anyway, considering I have had friends that have lived in some of their apartments and only had problems...
Oh well, battering yourself into a hole isnt so bad as long as she can get something out of it..
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That pretty much sums it up...
Do we start spelling it Whorizon Group instead? Why on earth would ANY self-respecting company, no matter how sleazy or scummy they were, admit openly that they are a "sue first, ask questions later" kind of company? Speaks volumes for their integrity, doesn't it? Preerving a good reputation? If they had one before, they sure don't anymore!
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Re: That pretty much sums it up...
Welcome to the Chicago apartment business...
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Having just read the Chicago Sun Times article...
I have to say the company is doing more damage to itself (regarding the sue comment) than this girl ever could.
Maybe the folks at Horizon breathed in too much of their own alleged mold, because nothing else explains their stupidity.
Oh, and what's "marinating" on the Crystal Ball? I thought this word was applicable to meat only.
:|
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Mmhmm...
"And, rather than address a concern of one of their residents, the company brought out the lawyers, and sued for over $50,000."
FORMER resident, actually, but that isn't really the point. The way the Chicago area justice system handles real estate law is an absolute joke. They are so pro-owner as to make renter's rights laughable. In fact, in several instances that I'm personally aware of, judges have sided with landlords and property groups OVER clear Illinois law (most commonly with regard to interest payments on security deposits).
"A little investigation reveals that the woman had all of 20 followers"
HAD being the key word. I can assure you she has more now. I could have sworn there was some kind of effect named after this type of thing....
""We're a sue first, ask questions later kind of an organization," he said, noting that the company manages 1,500 apartments in Chicago and has a good reputation it wants to preserve."
Proof that just because you can speak doesn't mean you can be a spokesman. I have read this quote aloud to several co-workers and none of them have believed it's an actual quote. "Who would actually SAY that?" they ask.
More to the point, Horizon Group isn't a BBB accredited business according to the BBB website, although they don't have all that terrible a rating (B-). Interestingly, they also operate Elmhurst Terrace Apts., which are right down the street from a suburb I lived in for a while, and those buildings were THE place to go if you needed drugs.
Who said high school kids getting drugs from residents of your slum apartments is a bad thing? {Too fearful of a lack of understanding of the privacy policy on TD to post the rest of my joke, so just think it and laugh to yourself)
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Re: Mmhmm...
Unless you are a real estate attorney or work in real estate.
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Re: Mmhmm...
"HAD being the key word. I can assure you she has more now. I could have sworn there was some kind of effect named after this type of thing...."
Actually, I read, I believe on CNET, that her Twitter account is now disabled. No word on whether she did it or was pressured into it.
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The critical question...
Was there actually mold? IANAL, but it seems that if there was, and they refused to act, then all she did was state the truth.
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Re: The critical question...
The question isn't really important at all.
Even if she was flat-out lying, suing her is probably the worst thing you could possibly do.
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Re: The critical question...
And how much is it going to cost her to be "right"? How much does it cost a lawyer to state the obvious to a judge? $200, 300, 800/hour?
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Re: Re: The critical question...
I'd think there'd be enough liberal minded lawyers willing to take her on at very discounted rates if her complaint is accurate.
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Re: Re: Re: The critical question...
That's a whole lotta hope. Hope doesn't pay for jack shit.
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"Can You Defame Someone In 140 Characters Or Less?"
Easily!! Most defamations are 4 letters, just string a few together.
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This is a clear indication that all defamation law is out of control and needs to be overhauled. Since we cannot deterministically determine whether this is defamation without involving a court, the law is useless and irrevocably broken. Also, as a big supporter of the First Amendment, this sort of law that prohibits free expression like this concerns me greatly.
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Re:
This is a clear indication that all law is out of control and needs to be overhauled.
There, fixed that for ya
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Re:
"deterministically determine"
Is that like being repetetively redundant?
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Re: Re:
More like redundantly redundant.
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Re: deterministically
Sarah Palin? Is that you?
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It's not like their rents are cheap either!
If you look at their site, http://www.horizonrealtygroup.com, you'll see that they're not renting out cheap flats either! $750/month for a studio apartment isn't peanuts... a 2 BR in the same building goes for an astounding $1,525/month. If I paid that kind of price and saw one little spot of mold, I'd be POd too!
I also have to wonder... just how did this company find the woman's Tweet? Do they scour the social networking sites to see if anyone complains? If so, sounds like a guilty conscience on Horizon's part.
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Welcome to America Mike!
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Re:
Do you feel welcomed, Mike? DO YOU????
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The bigger causes of "defamation" were clearly the lawsuit and the subsequent statement made by the spokesperson. The limited original audience of the "tweet" implies that the initial complaint would have had about the same amount impact as mentioning a problem landlord at a dinner party.
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Retweeted
And I'm far from the first to do so.
Way to take care of the problem, Horizon. Good work.
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Important quote from the story:
"Because Bonnen's Twitter account is set to "public," everyone following on Twitter can view the defamatory statement, the suit said."
While only 20 people followed her, there is no limit to the number of people who may have seen it.
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Re:
The tweet said:
"Who said sleeping in a moldy apartment was bad for you? Horizon realty thinks it's okay."
Do you know how much time it would take me to hunt down this tweet in twitter search with out knowing the person or knowing what Horizon was?
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Re:
"While only 20 people followed her, there is no limit to the number of people who may have seen it."
So like saying it at a dinner party in a resturaunt? Where any number of people could hear it?
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Re:
Doesn't matter what size the audience...she had a right to say it, write it, shout it...if it was accurate. If a business treats you badly you have a right, and in my view an obligation to your community to point it out in exacting detail.
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Re: Re:
You are absolutely correct, Raven. This woman has a right to tell others how poorly the condition is. Question to all: If this were a defamatory remark, what could the motive possibly be? I think instead, "Horizon" is attempting their best at bullying this woman into submission. NO WAY! I am tired of business owners thinking they "own" us as consumers. If I were an attorney, I would take this case pro-bono-publico, go to the apartment and check to see if it has been "overhauled" recently to try to hide the evidence. More reason to believe the woman. Score:Woman 1, "Horizon" 0!!!
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Re:
And the #1 Horizon Realty website result in Google is a DIFFERENT Horizon Realty company in Florida. The SECOND Google result is the Chicago-based Horizon Realty.
So, not knowing who this person is, and what company she's talking about ... doing a blind Google search would actually make the company's competition in another market with a similar name look worse.
So, there's no limit to the number of people who may have mistakenly thought that Horizon Realty in Florida supports mold. And 20 people would have gotten it right.
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Re: Re:
(1) They're probably the same Horizon Realty in different regions, much like, say, Best Western hotels.
(2) Even if they aren't, real estate companies in Florida aren't really competing with those in Chicago.
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Re:
there is no limit to the number of people
I guarantee it can't be much more than 6 billion, as an upper limit.
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Chicago Apts
@mjb5406 - Those prices aren't outlandish for Chicago. Those are pretty close to normal average for the northside.
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Re: Chicago Apts
"normal average"
we're all about being repetetively redundant today, aren't we?
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Re: Chicago Apts
Particularly the closer you get to either Wrigley, one of decent harbors, or both. I was in between Belmont Harbor and Diversey Harbor for a while in a single, and I was paying $1300.
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AWESOME! Dark Helmet lives (or used to live) in Chicago!
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Re:
"AWESOME! Dark Helmet lives (or used to live) in Chicago!"
Born and raised, sir. I'm now just barely still technically in my beloved city. Let me know if you want to see where i'm going my stand up (just kidding).
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Re:
Figure that out all by yourself, did you?
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Re: Re:
Why no love for Dark Helmet, there, DJ?
On the other hand, I DO tend to shout an awful lot about my beloved 2nd City, don't I?
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Re: Re: Re:
My quip was directed @ bubbagump
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I'm not familiar with Twitter but it says she has 15 followers (Searched Abonnen which brought up Amanda Bonnen) however, her account no longer appears to be active.
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Re:
Again, with people focusing on minutia, that play no part whatsoever in the discussion at hand. Way to look ahead Myopia.
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Yet another...
in a long list of examples of why there should be harsher penalties for frivolous lawsuits and why they should be strictly enforced.
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Three steps to fix the problem
1.) Horizon should quietly drop this lawsuit
2.) Fix any problems with the woman's apartment
3.) Fire their spokesmoron
In my opinion, extensive mold in the apartments under their management has caused Horizon executives to suffer from highly impaired mental function.
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How do you defame a COMPANY?
That's why the law is out of control.
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Strip companies of the rights of personhood. They won't be able to do near as much damage without them.
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Sure about that?
Sounds like their "good name" is mostly in their own mind. Allowing mold to grow in a residence is probably litigable.
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wow
They should sue themselves for defamation. We'll see.
Im headed off to sue yellowbook for not making me part of their super businesses or whatever. Id say thats pretty defaming.
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Arrogance and stupidity in one package how convenient for them.
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here's where it gets interesting...
I think there is more at work here than meets the eye. Horizon is litigious... ok... but if their legal team is smart they'll use "Twitter math" on this and win. Here's how in a nutshell:
At the moment, the world values Twitter far beyond it's actual worth. Twitter is so important that “it will change everything" and so profound that nothing can measure it.
Most digital marketers believe Twitter to be tremendously valuable although they cannot tell you, concretely, why. In fact most of the world believes Twitter's value (ie. power) to be INFINITE.
That in mind lawyers can leverage this to win and win big.
Twitter’s value perception is kept high by marketer’s disconnection with (denial of?) the way people actually use it. The true value of Twitter, for most of us willing to play along, is endlessly unknown… and it’s best kept that way so far as we’re concerned because that supports the perception of infinite value.
Example: With every additional person you follow on Twitter the average ‘attention value per followed person’ decreases.
Hence, the number of Twitter followers is not a score — it’s a statistic. It’s like ‘minutes used on your phone plan’ or ‘number of claimed dependents.’ Why would a marketer treat it as a score — a measure of social media success?
Perhaps because doing so is based on a decades-old system of valuing what we think is real… think is actually happening with customers. The world of “brand advertising.”
A good lawyer will understand all of this and leverage it. They'll actually convince a judge quite easily -- in this environment -- of defamation that doesn't exist. It's no different than a social media expert/agency convincing a major brand of advertising value that just plain doesn't exist (yet merits continual investment).
Candidly, I find the notion to be sickening but Twittermainia is in full swing.
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Post a negative comment and YOU WILL BE NEXT.
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Update
ArsTechnica has an update. http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2009/07/landlord-sues-tenant-after-tweet-about-moldy-apartme nt.ars
There was a roof leak in her apartment. She moved out and also sued the apartment company (no further info on what she sued for). The company then somehow ran across her tweet when researching the lawsuit.
The roof leak thing makes it highly unlikely in my eyes that this is defamation in any form. I think she should have her lawyer take a look for SLAPP laws that are applicable to her case.
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Brother
My brother was interviewed about this at his old apartment. He was visiting my brother who is living there
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thats how the system is made and its getting stronger every day obviously they have a lot of money and they have high profile lawyers on retainer and they jump on their guns.
money talk bullshit walks as for the women she has to fight back what a shame
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can't defame Sun Healthcare nursing homes
I have records to back up my claim, therefore cannot be sued for liable:
Horizon and MOLD? Sun Healthcare Group Inc used broken equipment in a nursing home which led to the death of my mother and other's I'd witnessed, according to their Medical Director, Dr Scott Stoney, who declared so in 2006. Calif State Attorney General even had an existing injunction against them for killing patients while lacking a HVAC system in their Burlingame, Calif facility, yet when they violated this injunction and we notified the Dept of Justice they turned a blind eye. When it killed my mother, the deputy Attorney General Calude Vanderwold apologized to me. So did the CEO of Sun Healthcare through his regional employee Julie Campbell, who heads up their PAC now and told me she was a former girlfriend of his.
What's worse -mold or death?
This is not rocket science.
Deborah Calvert,
Newport Beach, Calif
former asst to Buzz Aldrin
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Finding tiny morons
I had to take a gigantic dump. It was very difficult to get it out. When It finally came, I took a close look at it. It was the Horizon spokesperson! He was stomping about, all pissed off. He threatened to sue me because I had not kept my inner bowels in a 100% perfectly mold-free condition.
He was the cutest little thing. He had a tiny briefcase full of soiled legal papers and a tiny hat covering his bald head.
It's true what they say about losing things, (like small morons); their always in the last place you look!
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Sued over Twitter message?
Dr Chauncey Hunker, a board member of Sun Healthcare Group Inc out of New Mexico, who operates over 200 nursing homes in the USA, stated in a letter to me that he had no problem with patients living in Sunbridge Newport with a non working HVAC system.
In 2006 their Medical Director, Dr Scott Stoney, declared this was a contributing factor in my mother's death. Dr Hunker wrote this letter while under a Injunction with Calif State Attorney General's Office, having killed patients in Burlingame, Calif in 2000 when their HVAC system broke.
This was willful misconduct by a board member and by the CEO. The CEO even sent an employee, Julie Campbell to apologize for SUN for damaging my mother when their b/p equip broke causing her to stroke.
Yet two yrs later I was cheated by them out of compensation for her death, even thought I had this written evidence of their blatant disregard for human life.
Sun Healthcare knew they owed me for my mother's death and cheated me out of an appropriate compensation. I refused to sign confidentiality agreement and therefore can make these statements.
Beware of their nursing homes, they are slumlords.
Deb Calvert
Newport Beach, Calif
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Mold or Death? What's worse?
Do we start calling Whorizon realty?
and
Sunk Healthcare?
ha ha
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Sun Healthcare Nursing Homes
Sun Healthcare Group practices elder abuse and manslaughter for profit, I will testify because they were responsible for my mother's death and four others in 2003. The state condemned their HVAC (like living in a 3rd world country here). They had broken suction equip. that caused another patient in his 50's to die from aspiration pneumonia. Broken thermometers missed my mother's fevers after having recurring urinary tract infections for ten months because they didn't staff according to law so there weren't enough help to change diapers. That mis-use of antibiotics made her more vulnerable to the MRSA she caught from the facility. With their lack of ventilation led her on a downward spiral unable to swallow for the final nine months of her life, repiratory problems, renal failures, lack of nutrition, that was a horror to watch. The CEO of SUN sent his employee Julie Campbell to apologize for him. 2 yrs later I sued Sun, knowing their willful misconduct made me eligible for treble damages. But the powers that be prevented that triple compensation. After major surgery at UCLA to remove a pancreatic tumor that was a miracle I survived, my attorney, apparently working for SUN, Daniel Leipold, rushed me into mediation while still recovering, lied to me about the law, coerced, intimidated and threatened me into signing an agreement for damages based solely on SUN’s fraud. He dropped damages for wrongful death, elder abuse, pain & suffering while I was distracted and ill. Months later when I regained my strength, I sued him for malpractice, he died 2 weeks later. I won that case in 2008.
SUN can’t bar me for telling my story because I refused to sign a confidentialty agreement after mediaiton -after being told by my attorney that SUN’s CEO was on the phone from his Irvine office with attorneys in the other room and that he would cause me bodily harm and ruin my reputation if I forced this case to trial.
SUN cheated the taxpayers of the State of Calif out of millions of dollars in fines the State would have fined for my mother’s death and the four other deaths SUN was responsible for that I witnessed during my limited time there. And according to Claude Vanderwold deputy attrny generall this facility was NOT considered in the fine of $2.5 Million in Sept 2005 against Sun for violating the injunction to date. Amazing.
The Dept of Justice turned a blind eye. The Dept of Health didn’t fine the usual $100,000 for her or any other's death.
Yet SUN’s own medical director, Dr L Scott Stoney, wrote an opinion SUN responsible for her death and he quit due to SUN’s lack of response.
Yes, I can testify SUN Healthcare Group Inc, of New Mexico, produces profits at the cost of elder abuse and manslaughter.
Does this sound like political corruption? Corporate corruption?
This is not rocket science, Buzz would say.
Deborah Calvert daughter of the late Evelyn Calvert, Newport Beach, California and former assistant to Buzz Aldrin
debdeb2080@hotmail.com
230 Lille Lane #211
Newport Beach, CA 92663
949 548-2080
see Orange County Calif Superior Court Evelyn Calvert v Sun Healthcare Group Inc et al; Richard Matros v Deborah Calvert; and Calvert vs Daniel Leipold
(CEO requested a restraining order against me for writting SUN (and he as manager) was a slumlord, but Judge Gregory W Jones said NO, she's not dangerous to him or anyone, he's the dangerous one, he killed her mother. She did a whole lot less than I would have done, at least she didn't state that. They are slumlords and she has proven it, certainly she can state it. Freedom of speech, peaceful protest and protected speech. She should file a slapp back lawsuit for his malicious prosecution. And, you just introduced an email she states she doesn't even know what he looks like, how can I ask her to avoid someone she doesn't even know? My attorney said they certainly couldn't expect me to carry around a family pix of the CEO -the man who killed your mother, so you could avoid him!
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Attorney Lisa Cross of Fonda & Fraser LLP in Anaheim, California has the evidence that two board members of Sun Healthcare knowingly violated their state injunction with broken equipment and understaffing at Sunbridge Newport in Newport Beach, Calif. making them eligible for termination by the board of directors for five deaths I directly know of. Including my mother, Evelyn Calvert. Then the CEO cheated me for wrongful death when he gave threatening messages in mediation thru my late attorney Daniel Leipold, who died 2 wks after learning I'd retained Andres & Andres to sue for malpractice.
Shake up amongst the board of Sun Healtchare is imminent.
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