RIAA Wastes Little Time Trying To Extend Interpretation Of Usenet.com Victory

from the oh-really-now? dept

Last week we wrote about the RIAA's victory against Usenet.com, noting that it really wasn't that big a deal precedent-wise, given the rather specific circumstances involved in the case. Specifically, the company Usenet.com clearly destroyed evidence, which pretty much doomed the case, and on top of that engaged in activity that was egregious in terms of making it quite clear that it encouraged illegal activity through the use of its service. But, of course, the RIAA and its friends (as per usual) are having a field day claiming this is a big deal.

The RIAA, for example, put out a blog post calling it a significant victory, ignoring just how specific the case was, and stating misleadingly:
The decision reinforces two basic points: If you mindfully operate an illegal service without compensating the artists and creators whose content you advertise, the law is not on your side. Further, given the abundance of reasonably-priced legal download services, why go to an illegal one?
Not quite on either count. What it actually notes is that if you destroy evidence, you're almost certainly going to lose, and if you choose to outright flaunt the law and encourage people to use your site for illegal purposes, you're probably going to be in trouble too. However, note the neat little lie that the RIAA uses in its words here, calling Usenet.com "an illegal service." That's not accurate at all. Various usenet services have been offered for many, many years and are not illegal. The problem here was that the operators encouraged people to download infringing content. The service itself was not illegal.

Meanwhile Billboard for some reason asked an entertainment industry lawyer with a long history of involvement on the entertainment industry's side on these cases to write up a report about this decision, and it's no surprise that -- while positioned as a news article, rather than an opinion piece -- this same misleading explanation comes through -- again, calling it a "significant win."

Still, there is one part of the ruling (which both articles above cite) that does seem like a major departure from previous case law, which is why I'd be surprised if it's allowed to stand. That's the fact that the judge ruled that Usenet.com wasn't just guilty of contributory infringement, but direct infringement because it maintains an "ongoing relationship" with users. It's hard to see how such a ruling lives on through an appeal. It seems that the judge was heavily influenced by the other two issues -- the destruction of evidence and the egregious encouragement of infringement -- and thus stretched the definition of direct infringement here as well. But if such a ruling is allowed to stand, it basically wipes out the Betamax "substantial non-infringing uses" ruling for any kind of online service, and also seems to go against a number of other recent rulings. That would be a plainly ridiculous interpretation of what the court said in the Betamax ruling, and if the entertainment industry really wants to hang their hat on that, they really ought to look back at the history of what happened to their industry post-Betamax. That's because the technology they fought so hard to kill helped prolong the life of the industry. The same would be true of more efficient means of internet distribution, though they refuse to consider that as a possibility.


Reader Comments (rss)

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  1.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Jul 6th, 2009 @ 9:41am

    FUCK YOU RIAA, GO AWAY!

     

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  2.  
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    Alex (profile), Jul 6th, 2009 @ 9:50am

    It's "flout" not "flaunt"

    It's "flout the law" not "flaunt the law".

     

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  3.  
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    Michael L. Slonecker, Jul 6th, 2009 @ 10:23am

    Both the press release and the Billboard article are essentially accurate in describing the case and the judgment rendered. Why you seem to feel otherwise is not clear.

     

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  4.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Jul 6th, 2009 @ 10:26am

    Can the RIAA please point us to those "reasonable-priced legal download services"? If selling a CD in mp3 form (with DRM, generally) at the price of a CD is called "reasonable-priced" now, then we have a problem. Or perhaps they can't, because linking to content may be seen as copyright infringement.

     

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  5.  
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    Azuravian, Jul 6th, 2009 @ 10:31am

    Re: It's "flout" not "flaunt"

    Although "flout the law" is the original phrase that does not preclude "flaunt the law" from being a valid way to make the same statement.

     

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  6.  
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    ChurchHatesTucker (profile), Jul 6th, 2009 @ 10:33am

    Re:

    "Both the press release and the Billboard article are essentially accurate in describing the case and the judgment rendered. Why you seem to feel otherwise is not clear."

    In the RIAA release, at least, the order of importance is flipped. The "Destroying Evidence" part is added almost as an afterthought.

     

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  7.  
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    rjk (profile), Jul 6th, 2009 @ 10:58am

    "reasonably-priced legal download services"

    Hmmm, maybe I haven't looked hard enough, but I can't seem to find any services selling the content I want in a lossless format for $0.25/song or $2.50/album.

    What they call reasonable, I call theft
    What they call the record industry, I call organized crime

     

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  8.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Jul 6th, 2009 @ 10:59am

    Threats

    The entertainment industry trolls have also started cruising the forums of other usenet providers, twisting this case and throwing threats around.

     

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  9.  
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    RD, Jul 6th, 2009 @ 11:08am

    Provide what people WANT

    "Hmmm, maybe I haven't looked hard enough, but I can't seem to find any services selling the content I want in a lossless format for $0.25/song or $2.50/album."

    Forget the format, how about AT ALL. There are many many songs I have been searching for for YEARS and can only get them on out of print CD's, if they can be found at all. These arent just obscure, art-house songs, but top 40 or 100 hits including:

    Naughty Naughty by John Parr
    Take it Easy by Andy Taylor
    Stay the Night by Benjamin Orr
    Lyin to Myself by David Cassidy
    Don't It Make You Feel by the Headpins
    Kiss You When It's Dangerous (cant recall who)
    Alibis by Sergio Mendes
    Girls With Guns by Tommy Shaw
    Baby Love by Regina

    Now, no flames on music choice, as everyone has their own tastes, and the point here is this stuff CANT BE BOUGHT from the RIAA/Industry. It's either OOP CD (if you can find one) or file sharing. When the RIAA is providing EVERY SONG that was ever published, THEN they will have cause to bitch about sharing.

     

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  10.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Jul 6th, 2009 @ 11:10am

    Re:

    Both the press release and the Billboard article are essentially accurate in describing the case and the judgment rendered. Why you seem to feel otherwise is not clear.

    The press release barely mentions the most significant point in passing near the end of the article. But still, Mike didn't claim they didn't mention it at all, so why you seem to feel otherwise is not clear.

     

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  11.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Jul 6th, 2009 @ 11:28am

    Is it me or for the past few weeks we have had people here agreeing with articles with which Mike disagrees, with no basis whatsoever (and blank statements like "Both the press release and the Billboard article are essentially accurate...". Can that be part of the new RIAA education campaign?

     

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  12.  
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    Eponymous Coward, AKA Doug (profile), Jul 6th, 2009 @ 11:33am

    Re: Re: It's "flout" not "flaunt"

    Although the above argument sounds reasonable, it neglects to take into account that to flaunt is to show off while to flout is to scorn or show contempt for. This would, in fact, preclude "flaunt the law" from making the same statement as "flout the law". The RIAA could, however, flaunt their contempt for the law, which would be nearly the same as flouting, but a bit more ostentatious.

    So long, Fare well, Auf Wiedershein, Good Bye, I Flit, I Float, I Flutter and I Fly. (Sorry, too much flout/flaunt talk makes me want to sing.)

     

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  13.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Jul 6th, 2009 @ 11:47am

    Re: Re: Re: It's "flout" not "flaunt"

    since we're getting all ridiculous here:

    I flout the law, and the law won....

     

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  14.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Jul 6th, 2009 @ 11:57am

    In Corporate America, the law flouts you.

     

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  15.  
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    Rob Levine, Jul 6th, 2009 @ 12:11pm

    >>>Meanwhile Billboard for some reason asked an entertainment industry lawyer with a long history of involvement on the entertainment industry's side on these cases to write up a report about this decision

    The reason Billboard asked the lawyer in question to write is that he knows a lot about the subject. Although Ben certainly has a point of view - as, I might add, you do - he did not represent anyone in this case. If you think he made a factual error, you're more than welcome to write a letter to the editor.

    Rob Levine
    Executive Editor
    Billboard

     

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  16.  
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    anon, Jul 6th, 2009 @ 12:17pm

    Re:

    it probably is.

     

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  17.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Jul 6th, 2009 @ 12:20pm

    Re:

    I read it as the lawyer being biased and applying biased opinions such as "significant win" which isn't a factual error since it's not a fact at all... but an opinion since it'll be impossible to determine it being a fact until this case is challenged and survives the test of time.

    At least that is how I read it. Where do you see Mike calling the lawyer in question as making factual errors? All I saw was a strong bias... Mike is providing a strong bias in the opposite direction... What's the issue?

     

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  18.  
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    pirate pete, Jul 6th, 2009 @ 12:20pm

    Re: Provide what people WANT

    I agree wholeheartedly, after all this is the 21st century. Every book, song, or movie ever made should be instantly available at nominal or no cost. Besides, the songs you listed should rightfully be in the public domain by now anyway.

    Big Media: The Robber Barons of our time.

     

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  19.  
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    Bob Bunderfeld (profile), Jul 6th, 2009 @ 12:27pm

    Re:

    I think what Mike is saying is you, the Executive Editor, chose someone who has ties to the RIAA to write an article that should be non-biased.

    There are plenty of beat writers out there that could have done a piece like this, giving BOTH sides of the coin good press, instead though, Billboard shows that it's merely a mouthpiece of the RIAA when it asks RIAA Friends to write articles and call them nothing but FACT.

    Why not just drink the kool-aid?

     

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  20.  
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    Mike Masnick (profile), Jul 6th, 2009 @ 12:35pm

    Re:

    The reason Billboard asked the lawyer in question to write is that he knows a lot about the subject. Although Ben certainly has a point of view - as, I might add, you do - he did not represent anyone in this case. If you think he made a factual error, you're more than welcome to write a letter to the editor.

    Indeed. I have a point of view, which is quite clear and that's why everything on this site is clearly opinion, not reporting. If you put his commentary as opinion, then I have no problem with it. But having him cover it as a reporter is quite different. A reader would then assume that he does not feel strongly towards one side. But he does. You wouldn't have me "report" on the case either, right? You might have me express my opinion on it. So why let Ben report on it when he clearly chose words that expressed his opinion in what was supposedly an objective report.

    I didn't say he made any factual errors, but his coverage does lead to bias, such as calling it a "significant win" which puts more weight on it than the case deserves. Ben also downplayed the rather unique circumstances around the case.

    I have no problem with him expressing his opinion on the importance of the case in an opinion piece. But as straight reporting, it seems his bias should preclude him from being presented as an objective observer, as you have done.

     

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  21.  
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    sceptic, Jul 6th, 2009 @ 12:41pm

    "But, of course, the RIAA and its friends (as per usual) are having a field day claiming this is a big deal"

    Honestly it is a big deal for the RIAA. How many cases have they won of this type? While I try to stay impartial and I am certainly not on side of a failing cartel, a posting of this type lacks any value as it is repeatedly calls the publications by the RIAA misleading without supporting the position. While Mike does state his position again,

    "What it actually notes is that if you destroy evidence, you're almost certainly going to lose, and if you choose to outright flaunt the law and encourage people to use your site for illegal purposes, you're probably going to be in trouble too"

    He does nothing to dispute the "significance" of the case regarding the position of the RIAA. he states himself

    " ..there is one part of the ruling [..] that does seem like a major departure from previous case law [..] That's the fact that the judge ruled that Usenet.com wasn't just guilty of contributory infringement, but direct infringement because it maintains an "ongoing relationship" with users."

    This case is in fact very significant and should be a roll call to anyone who cares about preserving file sharing sites that and the freedom that we enjoy on the internet everyday. When a judge makes these types of decisions based on essentially non-contributory evidence destruction, we should all be worried.

    Mike, you have done exactly what you accuse the RIAA of, written an opinion piece and presented it as fact. This will not help you to support your position. In addition by downplaying the significance of the case instead of addressing it directly, to me, is the absolute wrong tact and presents your position as cowardly.

     

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  22.  
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    sceptic, Jul 6th, 2009 @ 12:41pm

    "But, of course, the RIAA and its friends (as per usual) are having a field day claiming this is a big deal"

    Honestly it is a big deal for the RIAA. How many cases have they won of this type? While I try to stay impartial and I am certainly not on side of a failing cartel, a posting of this type lacks any value as it is repeatedly calls the publications by the RIAA misleading without supporting the position. While Mike does state his position again,

    "What it actually notes is that if you destroy evidence, you're almost certainly going to lose, and if you choose to outright flaunt the law and encourage people to use your site for illegal purposes, you're probably going to be in trouble too"

    He does nothing to dispute the "significance" of the case regarding the position of the RIAA. he states himself

    " ..there is one part of the ruling [..] that does seem like a major departure from previous case law [..] That's the fact that the judge ruled that Usenet.com wasn't just guilty of contributory infringement, but direct infringement because it maintains an "ongoing relationship" with users."

    This case is in fact very significant and should be a roll call to anyone who cares about preserving file sharing sites that and the freedom that we enjoy on the internet everyday. When a judge makes these types of decisions based on essentially non-contributory evidence destruction, we should all be worried.

    Mike, you have done exactly what you accuse the RIAA of, written an opinion piece and presented it as fact. This will not help you to support your position. In addition by downplaying the significance of the case instead of addressing it directly, to me, is the absolute wrong tact and presents your position as cowardly.

     

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  23.  
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    sceptic, Jul 6th, 2009 @ 12:43pm

    sorry for the double post

     

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  24.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Jul 6th, 2009 @ 12:43pm

    "Letter to the editor" makes me feel old, just by knowing what that is. In the real media, the new media, we have comments. Not audited letters no one knows about that editors are supposed to supervise.

     

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  25.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Jul 6th, 2009 @ 12:51pm

    *If you mindfully operate an illegal service without compensating the artists and creators whose content you advertise, the law is not on your side.*

    And if you operate a "legal" service without properly compensating the artists and creators (like many of the RIAA's own subsidiaries don't) whose content you advertise, you may be able to bribe congress to pass bogus laws (using part of aforementioned artists and creators money) to make your actions "legit", the law may be on your side but the consumers you rely on for your money aren't.

    I read a fair amount of history and watching organizations like the RIAA is like watching a repeat of politics in the 1750s and 1760s. If it were a movie it would be like a bad remake. Some of the details have been changed, but the same basic plot and timeline.

    Seriously, I think the RIAA should read two books. First is Bill Gates: The Road Ahead where he discusses the idea of threshold - the premise where a technology or idea struggles for acceptance until it reaches a certain threshold point, at which point it becomes pretty much the de facto idea or technology. The second is a history book. Specifically the section entitled Boston Tea Party. because you can pass all the "law" you want to, but when enough people have had enough of someone's draconian tactics, and that threshold point is reached, you're efforts are doomed.

     

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  26.  
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    sceptic, Jul 6th, 2009 @ 12:55pm

    In anticipated response to this being a site based purely on opinion, I understand that, Mike, you are in fact writing opinion pieces, but too often I think you present it factually. This is my opinion. Still, my main argument that this is a significant case and downplaying this fact is cowardly stands.

     

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  27.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Jul 6th, 2009 @ 2:53pm

    Boycott the RIAA! Listen to http://www.scrubradio.com

    Let musicians know that if they sign under the RIAA they are instantly boycotted.

    DEATH TO THE RIAA AND ALL THAT SUPPORT IT!

     

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  28.  
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    Azuravian, Jul 6th, 2009 @ 3:36pm

    Re: Re: Re: It's "flout" not "flaunt"

    From Merriam Webster:

    Flaunt
    transitive verb
    1 : to display ostentatiously or impudently : parade
    2 : to treat contemptuously

    So, according to Webster's, flaunt also means to treat with contempt.

    Just sayin'. ;)

     

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  29.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Jul 6th, 2009 @ 3:40pm

    Re: Re:

    >>>Indeed. I have a point of view, which is quite clear and that's why everything on this site is clearly opinion

    I have not seen it labeled as such, although I admit I'm an infrequent reader . . .

    Billboard is operating in a media environment where news is rapidly becoming a commodity, and we believe we have to offer readers more value for their money (many subscribe) than a simple recitation of events. So we try to employ writers who provide perspective and expertise. This isn't about opinion - it's about analysis. Given how fast news now moves online, I think that's the value we provide as a weekly publication.

    You may believe that our analysis is wrong, which is fair enough. But I wouldn't call the article in question opinionated - just analytical.

    Rob Levine
    Executive Editor
    Billboard

     

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  30.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Jul 6th, 2009 @ 4:03pm

    Re: Re: Re:

    From the top of the front page: techdirt.com:

    The Techdirt group blog uses a proven economic framework to analyze and offer insight into news stories about changes in government policy, technology and legal issues that affect companies’ ability to innovate and grow.

    Seems like it's clearly stated to me. "Analyze" and "offer insight" mean that the authors provide their opinions (well-informed or mis-informed, educated or ignorant, etc) about the subject matter.

    And you can probably guess where this is going...you used Ben to provide his opinion of what the case means...in his opinion...you can call it analysis if you want, but he provided his opinion. He may be knowledgeable about the topic, he may be well-educated, he may be very experienced...but he's no reporter.

     

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  31.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Jul 6th, 2009 @ 4:17pm

    Re:

    Is it me or for the past few weeks we have had people here agreeing with articles with which Mike disagrees, with no basis whatsoever

    That's been going on around here for years. The entertainment industry seems to have quite an army of astroturfing shills.

     

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  32.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Jul 6th, 2009 @ 4:25pm

    Re:

    The reason Billboard asked the lawyer in question to write is that he knows a lot about the subject.

    So does the EFF. Did you ask them to write it only to have them refuse? If not, then why not? Afraid they wouldn't put the spin you wanted on it?

     

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  33.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Jul 6th, 2009 @ 5:01pm

    Re: Re:

    If you put his commentary as opinion, then I have no problem with it. But having him cover it as a reporter is quite different.

    Especially considering that Billboard promotes itself as a "news" site.

     

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  34.  
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    Rob Levine, Jul 6th, 2009 @ 5:03pm

    Let me clarify a few things:

    Ben does NOT have a "link" to the RIAA. He has represented film companies on copyright cases. But he has no involvement in this case or with the litigants that would prevent him from writing about it fairly, and I don't see any unfair bias in the story.

    Your main objection to the article seems to be that he calls the case "significant." And yet you yourself say that ". . .there is one part of the ruling (which both articles above cite) that does seem like a major departure from previous case law." I think "a major departure from previous case law" IS "significant." Isn't it? So I'm not sure what you find so disagreeable about his story.

    >>>So does the EFF. Did you ask them to write it only to have them refuse?

    The RIAA did NOT write this story. And, since you asked, the EFF has written op-eds for us, and we use people there as sources. I might add that, although I personally disagree with much of what the EFF stands for, I not run around chanting 'Death to the EFF' the way people here do to the RIAA. Because I'm an adult.

    Rob Levine
    Executive Editor
    Billboard

     

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  35.  
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    Easily Amused, Jul 6th, 2009 @ 6:09pm

    Re:

    With all due respect, the EFF does not lie, cheat, steal, strongarm, coerce, or threaten regular people with life-altering-amount fines. The RIAA and their **AA ilk serve no purpose in the modern world except to glom money off of the artists they claim to support. They know this and are fighting tooth and nail for every single cent they can beg, borrow, or steal until the day the artists finally realize how awful they are for the music business.

    The people who would be infringing anyways don't go around chanting "Death to the RIAA". They couldn't give a shit.
    The people who are angry are the ones who used to pay for their entertainment and have gotten fed up with all the crap.

    NOT ONE CENT.

     

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  36.  
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    Rob Levine, Jul 6th, 2009 @ 6:44pm

    Let me clarify a few things:

    Ben does NOT have a "link" to the RIAA. He has represented film companies on copyright cases. But he has no involvement in this case or with the litigants that would prevent him from writing about it fairly, and I don't see any unfair bias in the story.

    Your main objection to the article seems to be that he calls the case "significant." And yet you yourself say that ". . .there is one part of the ruling (which both articles above cite) that does seem like a major departure from previous case law." I think "a major departure from previous case law" IS "significant." Isn't it? So I'm not sure what you find so disagreeable about his story.

    >>>So does the EFF. Did you ask them to write it only to have them refuse?

    The RIAA did NOT write this story. And, since you asked, the EFF has written op-eds for us, and we use people there as sources. I might add that, although I personally disagree with much of what the EFF stands for, I not run around chanting 'Death to the EFF' the way people here do to the RIAA. Because I'm an adult.

    Rob Levine
    Executive Editor
    Billboard

     

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  37.  
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    Trod, Jul 6th, 2009 @ 6:56pm

    Re: Re: It's "flout" not "flaunt"

    Sorry, all phrases have been created, no new ones allowed.

     

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  38.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Jul 6th, 2009 @ 9:54pm

    Re:

    Ben does NOT have a "link" to the RIAA. He has represented film companies on copyright cases.

    I would like to point out that the movie industry has itself been involved in legal actions against usenet providers, so that wouldn't exactly make him disinterested. I don't know if he has been directly involved in any of those cases or not.

    The RIAA did NOT write this story.

    I didn't say that they did.

    I not run around chanting 'Death to the EFF' the way people here do to the RIAA.

    That would be "some" people. Let that important little word out, didn't you? And "some" here might indeed chant 'Death to the EFF' (all types seem to show up here from time to time).

    Because I'm an adult.

    Why are you reposting seemingly exact duplicates of your previous posts? That doesn't make your point any better and doesn't seem very "adult".

     

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    rjk (profile), Jul 6th, 2009 @ 11:12pm

    I [do] not run around chanting 'Death to the EFF' the way people here do to the RIAA. Because I'm an adult. As you well know, the RIAA and the companies they represent are liars and cheaters, they ripoff artists and consumers any which way they can. It's hardly surprising that there are people chanting 'Death to the RIAA.' And as an adult, would you say that your work largely exposes or facilitates these liars and cheaters?

     

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  40.  
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    Mike Masnick (profile), Jul 7th, 2009 @ 12:59am

    Re: Re: Re:

    I have not seen it labeled as such, although I admit I'm an infrequent reader . . .

    The entire site is clearly labeled as such, and we most certainly have never made any pretense that we are reporters. Yet you put Ben's piece in a news section, without any indication of his associations, which are strongly to one side on copyright related lawsuits from the entertainment industry.

    That's questionable.

    Billboard is operating in a media environment where news is rapidly becoming a commodity, and we believe we have to offer readers more value for their money (many subscribe) than a simple recitation of events. So we try to employ writers who provide perspective and expertise. This isn't about opinion - it's about analysis. Given how fast news now moves online, I think that's the value we provide as a weekly publication.

    I agree it's valuable, that's why we focus on analysis as well. But we don't label it as impartial news. You did. Again, I'd have no problem if you presented the fact that Ben has strong opinions on the subject that clearly colored the way he covered the story.

    You may believe that our analysis is wrong, which is fair enough. But I wouldn't call the article in question opinionated - just analytical.

    Do you always have people with strong opinions and biases (and regular paychecks from the industry they're covering) put their "analysis" in the news section?

     

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  41.  
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    Mike Masnick (profile), Jul 7th, 2009 @ 1:06am

    Re:

    Ben does NOT have a "link" to the RIAA. He has represented film companies on copyright cases. But he has no involvement in this case or with the litigants that would prevent him from writing about it fairly, and I don't see any unfair bias in the story.

    He has incredibly strong links to the overall entertainment industry -- and you know quite well that the MPAA and the RIAA are nearly 100% aligned on these issues.

    Your main objection to the article seems to be that he calls the case "significant." And yet you yourself say that ". . .there is one part of the ruling (which both articles above cite) that does seem like a major departure from previous case law." I think "a major departure from previous case law" IS "significant." Isn't it? So I'm not sure what you find so disagreeable about his story.

    No, my main objection was that he doesn't even mention the massive extenuating circumstances that led to this decision and why it's quite unique and hardly representative of a typical legal battle over these issues.

    The RIAA did NOT write this story. And, since you asked, the EFF has written op-eds for us, and we use people there as sources.

    Yes, an op-ed. Because it's an opinion. If Ben's piece was an op-ed that would make sense. But since you had him cover this story, and as far as I can tell it's the only piece you have on this ruling, you have done your readers a great disservice. If they are expecting impartial, non-biased analysis from a 3rd party observer, they did not get it. They got an extremely one-sided discussion which was labeled otherwise.

    I might add that, although I personally disagree with much of what the EFF stands for, I not run around chanting 'Death to the EFF' the way people here do to the RIAA. Because I'm an adult.

    An adult does not take a cheap shot like that. An adult does not take one idiot commenter on an open site and use a broad brush to assume that everyone challenging his position agrees with that statement.

    I like Billboard. I link to it frequently, but this whole incident has me questioning if that makes sense in the future. I certainly will make sure I recognize that the authors of the pieces may have strong connections to the industry they're writing about, and thus judge the "news" reporting accordingly.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]


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