phulshoff72 's Techdirt Comments

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• On the post: Supposed 'Free Speech' Warrior Jordan Peterson Sues University Because Silly Professor Said Some Mean Things About Him

  

  phulshoff72 ( profile ), 27 Jun, 2018 @ 01:40pm

  Re: Re: Re: FFS...

  You may be correct here; as said: I'm not a lawyer, and only go by what I've read so far. I just spent half an hour reading the HRA to get a better understanding of what's actually in there, and to match it with what you just told me.
  
  From what I've read before tonight, Canadian legal experts do not entirely agree on this matter. I've read multiple statements from professors of law that say accidental usage of the wrong pronoun can be considered harassment, and multiple that say it cannot. So, as said: you may be correct here, but legal explanations so far conflict. I guess time will tell.

• On the post: Supposed 'Free Speech' Warrior Jordan Peterson Sues University Because Silly Professor Said Some Mean Things About Him

  

  phulshoff72 ( profile ), 27 Jun, 2018 @ 12:52pm

  Re: FFS...

  I take it you're not a lawyer either? I'm somewhat familiar with law due to my involvement in copyright legislation, though I must admit that I'm less familiar with Canadian anti-discrimination law. As such, we turn to Wikipedia...
  
  Bill C16 is an act to amend the Canadian Human Rights Act, which is a federal statute that extends the law to ensure equal opportunity to individuals who may be victims of discriminatory practices based on a set of prohibited grounds such as sex, sexual orientation, race, marital status, gender identity or expression, creed, age, colour, disability, political or religious belief.
  
  As such, the quoted explanation of why intent doesn't matter in these cases is fully applicable. I may not be a lawyer, but I tend to listen to people that are when it comes to these matters, and that's where that quote came from.
  
  As to your question: People argue with me because I do at least a tiny bit of research before I open my mouth. That doesn't mean I'm never wrong, but at least it diminishes the chances a little.

• On the post: Supposed 'Free Speech' Warrior Jordan Peterson Sues University Because Silly Professor Said Some Mean Things About Him

  

  phulshoff72 ( profile ), 27 Jun, 2018 @ 11:26am

  Re: Religious politics in the US

  Interesting view. As said: I'm not that familiar with the American religious situation, so I welcome to get some insights into the matter. I appreciate you taking the time to share yours. As you may know, Trump isn't exactly popular outside of the US right now, and the Netherlands is certainly no exception to that.

• On the post: Supposed 'Free Speech' Warrior Jordan Peterson Sues University Because Silly Professor Said Some Mean Things About Him

  

  phulshoff72 ( profile ), 27 Jun, 2018 @ 11:22am

  Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

  You seem to be somewhat unfamiliar with people who have a moderate view on things. Let me try to explain my positions:
  
  I have not offered any justifications for professor Peterson's lawsuit (though others have). I've explained what I think his reasons are, and why I disagree with those reasons.
  
  I've explained that I think it's a very bad idea for a government to be driven by religion, yet I think it wise for any government to weigh people's basis of value (religious or otherwise) against the enforcement of a policy of which the effective value is at best questionable, and possibly deplorable.
  
  Wendy Cockcroft stated that professor Peterson was a 'misogynous git' for claiming that 'men in stable relationships are less likely to be violent', while that statement is a well known fact in the anthropology sciences. Stating such facts has nothing to do with misogyny. If professor Peterson had claimed, like Wendy did, that that must imply that women have an obligation to provide monogamous relationships to (all?) men to avoid being blamed for the violence against them, I would have called him a misogynist as well, but professor Peterson made no such claim.
  
  In fact, if you actually listen to professor Peterson speak, he's always incredibly careful about what he says in order to be factually correct (or at least not lie). Life isn't black or white; there's a plethora of colors in between, but for some odd reason, to some, holding a moderate view is not allowed anymore these days. One must either be completely on board with the (extreme) left or be labelled a misogynist nazi biggot. I'm sorry, but I don't play those games, and neither does professor Peterson. You may not agree with him; heck, many times I don't agree with him either, but he does wish the best for all individuals.

• On the post: Supposed 'Free Speech' Warrior Jordan Peterson Sues University Because Silly Professor Said Some Mean Things About Him

  

  phulshoff72 ( profile ), 27 Jun, 2018 @ 07:47am

  Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

  Why would that be the implication? Violence depends on a multitude of factors. All these studies show that the concept of normative monogamous relationships is one of them. It makes no claim as to the degree in which it is one of them.
  
  Even aside from this, it's clear that any kind of obligation towards normative monogamous relationships would not have a positive effect at all, since it carries a plethora of others consequences that would be very bad for society. Studies have also shown that biologically humans tend to lean towards polygamy (like most species). It's a near miracle that Western society leans towards monogamy (though I think religion may have played a role in it).
  
  So no, the results of these anthropological studies in no way put an obligation on anyone. It's merely a scientific cross-culture observation. As far as I know, most Western countries already have a normative monogamous culture, and clearly it's not a silver bullet to violence.

• On the post: Supposed 'Free Speech' Warrior Jordan Peterson Sues University Because Silly Professor Said Some Mean Things About Him

  

  phulshoff72 ( profile ), 27 Jun, 2018 @ 06:06am

  Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

  Repeating the same thing over and over again doesn't make it true. True, but the results of anthropological studies have shown that it is. In "the puzzle of monogamous marriage" for instance, Joseph Henrich, Robert Boyd,and Peter J. Richerson state: "In suppressing intrasexual competition and reducing the size of the pool of unmarried men, normative monogamy reduces crime rates, including rape, murder, assault, robbery and fraud, as well as decreasing personal abuses." Once again though: this research supported conclusion places absolutely no obligation in any form on women (or men for that matter). It's merely a scientific observation that, cross culture, normative monogamy reduces violence.

• On the post: Supposed 'Free Speech' Warrior Jordan Peterson Sues University Because Silly Professor Said Some Mean Things About Him

  

  phulshoff72 ( profile ), 27 Jun, 2018 @ 05:49am

  Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

  I think I'd like to catch that one on camera; I'll skip on the rock for now if you don't mind. :)

• On the post: Supposed 'Free Speech' Warrior Jordan Peterson Sues University Because Silly Professor Said Some Mean Things About Him

  

  phulshoff72 ( profile ), 27 Jun, 2018 @ 03:08am

  Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

  Actually, I'm near a zoo, so maybe that's not the best example...

• On the post: Supposed 'Free Speech' Warrior Jordan Peterson Sues University Because Silly Professor Said Some Mean Things About Him

  

  phulshoff72 ( profile ), 27 Jun, 2018 @ 03:07am

  Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

  The statistical fact that men in a stable relationship are less violent does in no way implicate that women have any obligation to make men less violent in any way.
  
  Professor Peterson merely pointed out that IF the goal is to reduce violence from men that promoting polygamy and/or adultery are probably not very good ways to achieve that, as is very well known among anthropological studies. Nothing more.

• On the post: Supposed 'Free Speech' Warrior Jordan Peterson Sues University Because Silly Professor Said Some Mean Things About Him

  

  phulshoff72 ( profile ), 26 Jun, 2018 @ 11:48pm

  Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

  Generally religious beliefs are not limited to a singular individual, but no: I'm not advocating for special rights. I think that in general, one should really look at the value of a policy before forcing it against other people's will. With gay marriage, it's incredibly clear that this is a positive outcome for those who wish to marry a partner of the same sex, while the negative outcome on others is practically non-existent (aside perhaps from forcing people to perform the marriage ceremony against their will). With gender pronouns, things are a lot less clear. The scientific data so far doesn't even support the theory that it's positive for transgenders, and it's clearly interfering with other people's values or beliefs. As such, one should think very carefully before making policy that forces people to go against their basic values, and forces them to adapt or lose a job they may have held for decades.

• On the post: Supposed 'Free Speech' Warrior Jordan Peterson Sues University Because Silly Professor Said Some Mean Things About Him

  

  phulshoff72 ( profile ), 26 Jun, 2018 @ 11:34pm

  Re: Re: tl;dr

  I'll take your word for it; I'm not familiar enough with American religion to know these details. :)

• On the post: Supposed 'Free Speech' Warrior Jordan Peterson Sues University Because Silly Professor Said Some Mean Things About Him

  

  phulshoff72 ( profile ), 26 Jun, 2018 @ 02:35pm

  Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Wilfrid Laurier

  Shortly after this incident, Wilfrid Laurier University apologized, and gave every indication that they would resolve this issue. Under those circumstances, professor Peterson decided not to press charges. Now that it's clear that Wilfrid Laurier University has no intention of changing their policies, he's decided to press charges after all.
  
  I still think it's a foolish lawsuit, but that at least is what I think professor Peterson's reasoning has been for filing suit now.

• On the post: Supposed 'Free Speech' Warrior Jordan Peterson Sues University Because Silly Professor Said Some Mean Things About Him

  

  phulshoff72 ( profile ), 26 Jun, 2018 @ 02:31pm

  Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

  Offense is irrelevant; see Steve Hughes on that. :)
  
  What I'm arguing is when a new policy is introduced, the value of that policy should be carefully weighed against the value of the effected people's personal values. If it's clear that a policy is overwhelmingly positive, then the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few (or the one). In some cases however, the value of a policy is still very much undecided or determine to be quite low, and in those cases I think one should be very careful about forcing said policy over the objection of other people's basic values, whether those are religious or otherwise determined.

• On the post: Supposed 'Free Speech' Warrior Jordan Peterson Sues University Because Silly Professor Said Some Mean Things About Him

  

  phulshoff72 ( profile ), 26 Jun, 2018 @ 01:12pm

  Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

  Hell no! I'm a left-wing voter in a country where even right wing political parties are in favor of abortion and gay marriage (just a few religious parties are opposed). As far as I know we were (one of) the first countries to legalize these matters.

• On the post: Supposed 'Free Speech' Warrior Jordan Peterson Sues University Because Silly Professor Said Some Mean Things About Him

  

  phulshoff72 ( profile ), 26 Jun, 2018 @ 01:09pm

  Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

  I'm not a lawyer, and not too well versed in Canadian law (which is quite different from USA and Dutch law), so I had to look this one up: Discrimination law is based on a reconciliatory rationale, not on a punitive rationale, and for that reason, among others, it is established based on the effects (i.e., harm caused by discrimination) regardless of intent or motive or lack thereof by the accused.

• On the post: Supposed 'Free Speech' Warrior Jordan Peterson Sues University Because Silly Professor Said Some Mean Things About Him

  

  phulshoff72 ( profile ), 26 Jun, 2018 @ 12:57pm

  Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

  Not that, but in many countries such beliefs are shared by other religious people, and as such they would not allow policies to override their religious preferences. In the USA for instance, the Christian church, though a minority of the population, has enormous political power. IMHO, that's one of the main reasons why issues like abortion and gay marriage are so slow in becoming/remaining legal. In many other countries, where either Catholic or Muslim religions are even more important to people, the separation between church and state is highly theoretical.

• On the post: Supposed 'Free Speech' Warrior Jordan Peterson Sues University Because Silly Professor Said Some Mean Things About Him

  

  phulshoff72 ( profile ), 26 Jun, 2018 @ 12:32pm

  Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

  That's your opinion. I know of many countries where the majority of the population would disagree with you on this point. The Netherlands, where I live, is probably not one of these countries, though on the other hand people here also are not too fond of political correctness. "Act normal, and you'll be crazy enough." is the mantra here.

• On the post: Supposed 'Free Speech' Warrior Jordan Peterson Sues University Because Silly Professor Said Some Mean Things About Him

  

  phulshoff72 ( profile ), 26 Jun, 2018 @ 12:27pm

  Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

  You have a point, but in the end it does mean that you either force yourself to be extremely careful never to use the wrong pronoun or you may get fined, and your employer along with you (which gives them great incentive to police your words). Granted, Canadian legal experts are still not in agreement on where the boundaries of the bill exactly are, but that uncertainty only works towards greater censorship. All in all it's hardly a good example of what a bill should be.

• On the post: Supposed 'Free Speech' Warrior Jordan Peterson Sues University Because Silly Professor Said Some Mean Things About Him

  

  phulshoff72 ( profile ), 26 Jun, 2018 @ 12:22pm

  Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

  I'm not so sure I would agree with you here. I think it would matter to me whether the policies were in place before or after the teacher joined that school. If the teacher knew before he joined, then it's a matter of choice. If the policy change came after, I think religious (or any other) values (for that matter) should be weighed carefully against the value of a new policy.
  
  In this case I think it would also matter to me if the words were newly made up or not. I find myself to be a lot more understanding towards people who transition from one gender to the other (like several of my friends have) than towards people who get stuck in the middle or even place themselves completely outside the male/female spectrum. There are currently over 100 different genders, and the first transracials and transspecies have also started to ask for personal attention. Maybe it's my age, but my mind just doesn't move that fast anymore.

• On the post: Supposed 'Free Speech' Warrior Jordan Peterson Sues University Because Silly Professor Said Some Mean Things About Him

  

  phulshoff72 ( profile ), 26 Jun, 2018 @ 10:50am

  Re: Radical left wing ideas

  Interesting; most of those ideas are even carried by right-wing parties here in the Netherlands. I wouldn't consider those radical left wing at all. You say "anti-left propaganda" though; what would you call examples of unacceptable left wing ideas?

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