" (which we all know has limits on it already, such as 'fire in theater' or promoting violence"
What, this again?
'Promoting violence'?
"the constitutional guarantees of free speech and free press do not permit a State to forbid or proscribe advocacy of the use of force or of law violation except where such advocacy is directed to inciting or producing imminent lawless action and is likely to incite or produce such action." Brandenburg v. Ohio.
Not quite. In Texas a pedestrian does not have to identify themselves if detained by the Police.
Texas Penal Code § 38.02. Failure to Identify
(a) A person commits an offense if he intentionally refuses to give his name, residence address, or date of birth to a peace officer who has lawfully arrested the person and requested the information.
(b) A person commits an offense if he intentionally gives a false or fictitious name, residence address, or date of birth to a peace officer who has: (1) lawfully arrested the person; (2) lawfully detained the person; or (3) requested the information from a person that the peace officer has good cause to believe is a witness to a criminal offense.
That hasn't stopped some idiot Texas officers from arresting people for 'refusal to identify' when they're just detained. That, generally, hasn't gone well for them.
Being UK based, I would think that no further action should be necessary beyond dropping Web Sheriff a quick e-mail referring them to the notable case of Arkell v. Pressdram.
Most legal teams in the UK are likely to be very, very, aware of it.
"Apple may think the founders would have been appalled, but honestly, they would have been appalled at the largest companies in the country working hard to protect criminals and terrorists who are bent on harming America, Americans, and the like."
Who is doing that? It can't be Apple, or they wouldn't have already provided the FBI and police a ton of assistance.
"Next, contrary to Apple’s stated fears, there is no reason to think that the code Apple writes in compliance with the Order will ever leave Apple’s possession. Nothing in the Order requires Apple to provide that code to the government or to explain to the government how it works. "
Outright LIE. The only way they could guarantee that the techniques and code involved in this exploit would not get out would be to never, ever, use any of the evidence obtained from the phone (if there's any even there to begin with, and there almost certainly isn't) in court.
Otherwise, any defence lawyer is fully entitled to quiz Apple thoroughly on how the evidence was extracted, to insist his own forensics experts review how it was done, and so on.
There's no way an Apple expert witness (and you guarantee one will be summoned) can go on the witness stand and say 'Sorry, how we did it is a secret. But trust us, it's all OK.'
Let's see that work in a court of law for 'ordinary' criminals. Maybe something like burglary ...
Lawyer : This is an outrageous abuse of civil rights, your Honor. My client is accused of breaking into the home of a local millionaire, but the only so-called 'evidence' the Police Department has is a video recording, from inside the property, of my client. That is tainted evidence, and must be excluded. My client was in a private property, and clearly had an expectation of privacy.
Judge : Not his own private property, however?
Lawyer : Doesn't matter, your Honor. Still not in public, so he clearly had an expectation of privacy!
Judge : How so? There were clear signs at each entrance to the property warning that, for security purposes, there were CCTV cameras recording.
Lawyer : Well, yes, granted - but earlier during the day, my client's accomplice had snuck in under the pretext of being an air-conditioning maintenance man, and had disabled all the cameras he could see. Therefore, my client CLEARLY in his own mind had an expectation of privacy as he was not expecting to be recorded.
Judge : But it would seem a hidden camera was missed?
Lawyer : Exactly, your Honor! A SPY camera SPYING on my client, who very clearly in his own mind had an expectation of privacy when he took his mask off. Ergo, being on private property and with his reasonable expectation of privacy fully intact, this evidence must obviously be suppressed.
Judge : Wow. Just ... wow. That's certainly a very novel argument.
"Um... well... I don't know the answer to that, George. Um.... All we know is that... um... this is effectively the official position of the British government"
Oh, really? It's the official position of the British government? You'd think that, if it were the official position, you'd be able to rely on named sources, and not ones who are only willing to provide anything if their anonymity is protected.
This is incredibly shoddy journalism, and any self-respecting journalist should be hanging their head in shame and promising they'll try to do better next time, not going on international TV and trying to defend the indefensible.
I can't help feeling that if there were any evidence to show that he had done this - or even could do this - in real life, he'd already have been deposited in a nice secure cell while some prosecutor somewhere spent a few months pouring through his or her law books trying to sum up every single thing he could possibly be charged with and seeing if they could get the maximum possible sentence to get into triple figures ...
On the other hand, as he's saying he was taken 'out of context', I wouldn't be at all surprised if he'd had a nice rambling conversation with some FBI agents during those interviews, mentioned what he thought the dangers might be, how interference could be technically possible, remarked how he might have had some initial successes in simulation etc ...
And then the FBI drew up an affadavit using the scariest-sounding bits they could find - with 'in simulation' omitted - to get a worried judge to sign off on things.
Mr CEO : Why, Mr. NSA. It's really nice to meet you too. This guy to my right? Oh, you haven't met. Now, I'm not saying he's with Chinese Intelligence and I'm not saying he's not. But he's awfully knowledgeable about your children, practically a trivia buff on the subject.
Why would Lenovo, a company that people have been screaming about as they're a Chinese company and thus could be 'spying for China', collaborate with the NSA?
"Have you got any organic matter in this bag, sir?" "Probably. I'm no scientist, so I can't say for certain. I think the bag's actually got a leather lining, so I think I might. Does leather count?"
"Have you got any organic matter in this bag, sir?" "Sure have! I accidentally sneezed in it twenty minutes ago!"
"Have you got any organic matter in this bag, sir?" "At the very least, the last time I put my hand in there it would have transferred some skin cells so I'm going to have to go with yes."
"Trying to be funny, sir?" "Hey, if there's some standard definition of 'organic matter' you go with, maybe you ought to explain it before asking people."
"Information relating to this specific incident has been permanently and securely disposed of."
Oh, really? How? The moment it went onto a database, it was virtually guaranteed to be permanently and securely retained. Pressing "Delete" won't cut it, PC Plod.
Re: Re: Re:
" (which we all know has limits on it already, such as 'fire in theater' or promoting violence" What, this again? 'Promoting violence'? "the constitutional guarantees of free speech and free press do not permit a State to forbid or proscribe advocacy of the use of force or of law violation except where such advocacy is directed to inciting or producing imminent lawless action and is likely to incite or produce such action." Brandenburg v. Ohio.
Re: "The whole thing is worth watching (of course)"
Nuts. One 'made' too many. Oh well. You know what I mean.
"The whole thing is worth watching (of course)"
Love to. Unfortunately 'The uploader has not made made this video available in your country.'
Cheers for that, Last Week Tonight.
Re: Re: ID is now required?
Not quite. In Texas a pedestrian does not have to identify themselves if detained by the Police.
Texas Penal Code § 38.02. Failure to Identify
(a) A person commits an offense if he intentionally refuses to give his name, residence address, or date of birth to a peace officer who has lawfully arrested the person and requested the information.
(b) A person commits an offense if he intentionally gives a false or fictitious name, residence address, or date of birth to a peace officer who has:
(1) lawfully arrested the person;
(2) lawfully detained the person; or
(3) requested the information from a person that the peace officer has good cause to believe is a witness to a criminal offense.
That hasn't stopped some idiot Texas officers from arresting people for 'refusal to identify' when they're just detained. That, generally, hasn't gone well for them.
Simple solution
Being UK based, I would think that no further action should be necessary beyond dropping Web Sheriff a quick e-mail referring them to the notable case of Arkell v. Pressdram.
Most legal teams in the UK are likely to be very, very, aware of it.
Re: Re:
Police officers certainly do not have 'sovereign immunity'. Are you thinking of qualified immunity?
Re:
"Apple may think the founders would have been appalled, but honestly, they would have been appalled at the largest companies in the country working hard to protect criminals and terrorists who are bent on harming America, Americans, and the like."
Who is doing that? It can't be Apple, or they wouldn't have already provided the FBI and police a ton of assistance.
Re: Re:
Facts?
"Next, contrary to Apple’s stated fears, there is no reason to think that the code Apple writes in compliance with the Order will ever leave Apple’s possession. Nothing in the Order requires Apple to provide that code to the government or to explain to the government how it works. "
Outright LIE. The only way they could guarantee that the techniques and code involved in this exploit would not get out would be to never, ever, use any of the evidence obtained from the phone (if there's any even there to begin with, and there almost certainly isn't) in court.
Otherwise, any defence lawyer is fully entitled to quiz Apple thoroughly on how the evidence was extracted, to insist his own forensics experts review how it was done, and so on.
There's no way an Apple expert witness (and you guarantee one will be summoned) can go on the witness stand and say 'Sorry, how we did it is a secret. But trust us, it's all OK.'
Let's see that work in a court of law for 'ordinary' criminals. Maybe something like burglary ...
Lawyer : This is an outrageous abuse of civil rights, your Honor. My client is accused of breaking into the home of a local millionaire, but the only so-called 'evidence' the Police Department has is a video recording, from inside the property, of my client. That is tainted evidence, and must be excluded. My client was in a private property, and clearly had an expectation of privacy.
Judge : Not his own private property, however?
Lawyer : Doesn't matter, your Honor. Still not in public, so he clearly had an expectation of privacy!
Judge : How so? There were clear signs at each entrance to the property warning that, for security purposes, there were CCTV cameras recording.
Lawyer : Well, yes, granted - but earlier during the day, my client's accomplice had snuck in under the pretext of being an air-conditioning maintenance man, and had disabled all the cameras he could see. Therefore, my client CLEARLY in his own mind had an expectation of privacy as he was not expecting to be recorded.
Judge : But it would seem a hidden camera was missed?
Lawyer : Exactly, your Honor! A SPY camera SPYING on my client, who very clearly in his own mind had an expectation of privacy when he took his mask off. Ergo, being on private property and with his reasonable expectation of privacy fully intact, this evidence must obviously be suppressed.
Judge : Wow. Just ... wow. That's certainly a very novel argument.
Lawyer : Thank you, your Honor.
Judge : Not novel in a good way, counsellor.
appeal : [DO NOT PUBLISH]
That turned out really well :)
I wonder why the court didn't want that appeal published? Is that a regular thing for the court of appeal eleventh circuit?
"The uploader has not made this video available in your country"
I hate when that happens.
"Um... well... I don't know the answer to that, George. Um.... All we know is that... um... this is effectively the official position of the British government"
Oh, really? It's the official position of the British government? You'd think that, if it were the official position, you'd be able to rely on named sources, and not ones who are only willing to provide anything if their anonymity is protected.
This is incredibly shoddy journalism, and any self-respecting journalist should be hanging their head in shame and promising they'll try to do better next time, not going on international TV and trying to defend the indefensible.
Re:
Why? My guess would be rampant stupidity.
I can't help feeling that if there were any evidence to show that he had done this - or even could do this - in real life, he'd already have been deposited in a nice secure cell while some prosecutor somewhere spent a few months pouring through his or her law books trying to sum up every single thing he could possibly be charged with and seeing if they could get the maximum possible sentence to get into triple figures ...
On the other hand, as he's saying he was taken 'out of context', I wouldn't be at all surprised if he'd had a nice rambling conversation with some FBI agents during those interviews, mentioned what he thought the dangers might be, how interference could be technically possible, remarked how he might have had some initial successes in simulation etc ...
And then the FBI drew up an affadavit using the scariest-sounding bits they could find - with 'in simulation' omitted - to get a worried judge to sign off on things.
Re:
If they have any sense there will be no response, and they'll just quietly go about their business.
If they try to double-down ... whoo boy, that's going to be fun watching Boise excoriated.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Everybody screws up sometimes
Mr CEO : Why, Mr. NSA. It's really nice to meet you too. This guy to my right? Oh, you haven't met. Now, I'm not saying he's with Chinese Intelligence and I'm not saying he's not. But he's awfully knowledgeable about your children, practically a trivia buff on the subject.
Hey, it's just as plausible :)
Re: Re: Re: Re: Everybody screws up sometimes
Why would Lenovo, a company that people have been screaming about as they're a Chinese company and thus could be 'spying for China', collaborate with the NSA?
Re: A Missing Point
'Hey, honey, could you update my facebook page to say I was really sorry to hear Great Aunt Emma had died?'
'FELONY! Extra time for you!'
How is that NOT a first amendment issue?
Re: Re:
"Have you got any organic matter in this bag, sir?"
"Probably. I'm no scientist, so I can't say for certain. I think the bag's actually got a leather lining, so I think I might. Does leather count?"
"Have you got any organic matter in this bag, sir?"
"Sure have! I accidentally sneezed in it twenty minutes ago!"
"Have you got any organic matter in this bag, sir?"
"At the very least, the last time I put my hand in there it would have transferred some skin cells so I'm going to have to go with yes."
"Trying to be funny, sir?"
"Hey, if there's some standard definition of 'organic matter' you go with, maybe you ought to explain it before asking people."
"Information relating to this specific incident has been permanently and securely disposed of."
Oh, really? How? The moment it went onto a database, it was virtually guaranteed to be permanently and securely retained. Pressing "Delete" won't cut it, PC Plod.