IP Enforcement Czar Wants To Hear From You About Government's IP Enforcement Plan

from the speak-up dept

It's that time again. The White House's IP Enforcement Coordinator (IPEC) -- often called the IP Czar -- is asking for public input on the upcoming "Joint Strategic Plan on Intellectual Property Enforcement" that it will be releasing next year. The Joint Strategic Plan comes out every three years and is supposed to guide the federal government in how it handles priorities around intellectual property enforcement. Now, I recognize that the cynical among you will already be insisting that there is no value in responding to this, because the government is going to simply repeat the arguments of the legacy industries and its copyright extremists. However, in the past, these open comment periods have actually helped, and the two previous Joint Strategic Plans have not been as bad as expected. In 2010, we sent in our feedback and was pleasantly surprised that at least some of it was reflected in the plan. It recognized the importance of fair use and encouraging innovation. It also admitted that most studies on the impact of intellectual property on the economy were bogus.

Then, the second report, issued in 2013, was even better and presented a much more balanced understanding of intellectual property law, and how over-enforcement and over-expansion could create real harms as well. It also points out that truly the best way to deal with problems around "piracy" is through greater innovation, rather than relying on enforcement. It doubled down on supporting fair use, and noted that it was working with the Copyright Office to release an "index of major fair use decisions" -- something that finally came out just a few months ago and is actually pretty damn good.

In other words, this report need not just be a playground for Hollywood types looking to ratchet things up.

Still: there are concerns. The first two reports were done by the original IPEC, Victoria Espinel, who left the office a few years ago. This latest report will be overseen by the new IPEC, Danny Marti, who has only been in the job a few months. And, unfortunately, in one of his first speeches, he trotted out pretty much all of the ridiculous and debunked copyright extremist tropes about the need for greater protection, exaggerating the economic impact of intellectual property and demanding more "respect" for intellectual property (rather than earning more respect for it).

It's also somewhat concerning that in his blog post asking for public comments, he cites one of the most debunked statistics around, from the US Chamber of Commerce, concerning the "worldwide market for counterfeit and pirated products," which he argues is $1.8 trillion. Having spent years debunking earlier claims of $200 billion, the idea that it's magically shot up to $1.8 trillion is insane. What's incredible is that the "methodology" for the $1.8 trillion is laughable, and it's a shame that Marti would cite it. The Chamber of Commerce just took the already debunked numbers from 2008 (which, in case you are wondering were actually based on a number someone just made up in the 1980s and which has never been checked) and then "projected" out to 2015. Really. And Marti quotes it as if it has some validity.

And he does this despite the fact that actual credible sources like the Government Accountability Office and the OECD have both insisted that there is no evidence that the issue of counterfeiting is anywhere near as big as the earlier problems stated. Furthermore, multiple studies have further shown that counterfeiting is very rarely a true "economic loss" as it's almost never a substitution good, but rather an aspirational purchase. That is, the person buying the fake Rolex isn't taking any money away from Rolex, because they can't afford to buy a real one. In fact, multiple studies have found that those who buy counterfeit products regularly go on to buy the real product later, when they can afford to. In fact, it appears the purchase of a counterfeit often gives them a closer bond with the brand itself. And, in the end, estimates have suggested that actual counterfeiting is probably somewhere around 2 to 3% of the big numbers thrown around by the Chamber of Commerce.

So, you have to wonder, if Marti is tossing around numbers from one of the world's largest lobbying organizations, the US Chamber of Commerce, rather than from well respected and credible sources like the Government Accountability Office and the OECD, just where he's coming from as he puts together this report.

Hopefully, people can submit thoughtful and well-argued comments based on the details set forth in the Federal Register and help point Marti and the IPEC office in the right direction. Such comments are due by October 16th.

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  • icon
    Violynne (profile), 8 Sep 2015 @ 12:14pm

    By "hear", do you mean actual conversation where two sides actually consider a mutually agreed upon outcome or how it's always been when the public's voice is never heard because the idiots making the "decision" (read: being told how to decide) still have their fingers firmly planted in their ears?

    It's a waste of time.

    Even if we, that is the public, get an "inch", we're so goddamn far back in miles nothing they do makes one damn bit of difference.

    This "throw us a bone" is insulting on every level of "hearing" the public.

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    • icon
      Mike Masnick (profile), 8 Sep 2015 @ 1:46pm

      Re:

      It's a waste of time.


      If you think that then only the other side weighs in and policies get worse and worse and worse. That doesn't help.

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      • identicon
        Anonymous Coward, 8 Sep 2015 @ 2:29pm

        Re: Re:

        I think what he is really trying to say, is that they are lying.

        They really do not want to hear our opinion, they are just ticking off a check box so they can throw it in our faces when we complain to them next time.

        They have no intention of listening, it only becomes a future foil for them, I think we have all seen in here before!

        They now get to say... well... we did ask for the public's opinion! The same rhetoric that both parties like to pull with this very line "I don't see the other guys coming up with anything" despite the fact there is more than enough ideas just most of them either stupid, or ideas that are actually good but one side dismisses because of some party line bullcrap!

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        • icon
          Mike Masnick (profile), 8 Sep 2015 @ 3:28pm

          Re: Re: Re:

          They have no intention of listening, it only becomes a future foil for them, I think we have all seen in here before!


          Except last time, they actually did listen somewhat. So that kind of disproves that claim.

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          • icon
            Violynne (profile), 9 Sep 2015 @ 3:15am

            Re: Re: Re: Re:

            "Except last time, they actually did listen somewhat. So that kind of disproves that claim."

            Do you see what you're doing to yourself? They only listened "somewhat".

            That's the kind of dismal attitude plaguing this fight, which is why I'm slowly taking myself out of it. I can't fight two sides anymore. It's depressing and time consuming.

            The public has no say in these discussions and the entire purpose is merely to "throw us a bone", to which often always placates the masses to pretend they walked away with a "small victory".

            Take a look at the history and you'll see the true issue. A "victory" tossed to us really did absolutely nothing to change a thing. And I must re-iterated, these changes are temporary and can be removed at any time.

            That's "somewhat" for you, defined and to the point.

            Why do you suppose you keep using the term "copyright czar"? It's no different than real czars, who throw the public a bone while still remain in complete and useless control.

            This office serves no purpose but to be the bone thrower. It has no intention of fighting for the public's rights for copyright and it will never, ever change.

            You can pretend all you want that "somewhat" is good enough, but it's not, and never will be.

            This office can change, but it's not going to do so with the current staff.

            So enjoy your "somewhat". Me, I'd rather win the war, not the battle whose outcome can be negated in 3 years.

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            • identicon
              Anonymous Coward, 9 Sep 2015 @ 7:27am

              Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

              Exactly, these guys are completely used to the ask for a million when all you really wanted was 500k so the person that talked the price down thinks they had a victory!

              They know it, we know it, but the game keeps rolling.

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            • identicon
              Anonymous Coward, 9 Sep 2015 @ 8:00am

              Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

              That's the kind of dismal attitude plaguing this fight, which is why I'm slowly taking myself out of it. I can't fight two sides anymore. It's depressing and time consuming.
              Ummm.... I know you meant what you meaned to say here.... but... ummm... this is actually seems to be a rather incoherent thought you've written. NOT that there's anything wrong with incoherently advancing a genuinely deeply screwed-up thought...

              Why are are you fighting “two sides” again? First, though, who are the “two sides” you're fighting?
              • Side 1 is: _______________
              • Side 2 is: _______________
              Fill in the blanks.

               

               
              (Personally, I'm fighting all the cheerful, hard-working people who have any optimism. I hate those fuckers.)

              reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

              • icon
                Ninja (profile), 9 Sep 2015 @ 8:33am

                Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

                There are no sides. There is a middle ground that will never please all sides (do we really think there are only two interests involved in this?) but will be enough for everybody to settle on that solution.

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            • icon
              Ninja (profile), 9 Sep 2015 @ 8:30am

              Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

              Big changes, dictatorships don't happen overnight. It's a series of events, some smaller, some bigger that together form the proper environment for them to actually happen. The same is true for good things too. Racial segregation took several small victories and heavy activism to reach what we see today.

              It's attitudes like yours that allow things to get worse without resistance.

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              • icon
                CK20XX (profile), 9 Sep 2015 @ 9:48pm

                Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

                This. Exactly this.

                I understand the frustration involved in this war, how it feels like slamming your head against a brick wall over and over. But the alternative is to just let the other side walk all over us, which isn't a realistic option at all. To bring about change, you must fight on every front that presents even an odium of opportunity.

                Steel your resolve as Winston Churchill did when he famously said, "We shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender."

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                • identicon
                  Anonymous Coward, 11 Sep 2015 @ 9:29am

                  Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

                  I feel like the best thing to do, perhaps, is just print out a bunch of sheets explaining the issue as best as possible. It doesn't have to go into a lot of detail on the sheet but it can have a link. Thousands and thousands, tens of thousands, should be printed. Perhaps on a printing press. It can be black and white. The main thing is exposure. People are very superficial, just look at presidential elections, and exposure is what really really gets votes and public opinion. Those willing to go into more details can visit a URL on the sheet which can link to more resources and pages to discuss the matter (such as some Techdirt articles and Techdirt in general). Exposure is very important. Most people are completely unaware of these issues or they don't take them that seriously because the broken mainstream media, which is part of the problem, is biased in terms of what they report and how they report it. With a printing press you can get a lot of very very cheap exposure if these flyers are very widely passed out. Exposure costs money. Like I said, just look at presidential elections. But you shouldn't necessarily rely on the mainstream media to get exposure and to get to the people that you can't easily reach through the Internet. You can pass out flyers.

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                  • identicon
                    Anonymous Coward, 11 Sep 2015 @ 9:32am

                    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

                    and I think that's what this debate really lacks. Good old fashion footwork to get exposure. That's the traditional way of getting something out without having to go through the mainstream media.

                    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

                  • identicon
                    Anonymous Coward, 11 Sep 2015 @ 9:46am

                    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

                    and another thing, if you noticed, is that if you look at election adds that are passed out (not just presidential but even local election adds, depending on where you live) you will often see them in English and Spanish. Really, depending on where you live, the language used can also be important. Perhaps certain key Techdirt pages (of course not everything) explaining the situation could be translated just to give people of other languages an overview of the debate. Or perhaps not an existing page but some page can be written with a general overview of the issue and translated. The Spanish community does have voting power in the U.S. and many of them struggle with English and the more exposure we can get to them the better.

                    Additionally if entire sheets of paper are too expensive half sheets can be used and cut. Or even little slips with a website and a few words telling the reader what the website is.

                    A good thing to do is to see how presidential and other candidates (including local candidates, not just Congressional) get their messages out. How do they get exposure, what is it they do? It's not all through the mainstream media, now a days there are candidates that have been elected through Facebook. But often times there is more, they do rallies, pass out fliers, have local conventions, tour including local tours, etc... If more can be done to get more local communities involved in these issues to get more and more exposure this can go someplace. It's a lot of hard legwork though but really that's what's needed and lacking in this debate on the side of those that want to fix IP laws.

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      • icon
        Retsibsi (profile), 8 Sep 2015 @ 2:47pm

        Re: Re: It's a waste of time

        Basic rules of life.
        If you go into something trying to win then you might just win. And if you do it hard enough then your opponent might well think again about trying something else later.
        If you go into something but don't even try to win then you've already lost.
        You do nothing, you lose.

        Which do you think is the best option?

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    • identicon
      andy, 9 Sep 2015 @ 3:05am

      Re:

      Although many people seem to think this is a waste of time it is something that can and has changed a persons perspective just look at how the fcc has changed after a mass outpouring of support for change.

      If everyone who came to this website just put a simple comment on why they supported fair use and why they supported less criminalisation of piracy they would be flooded with reasons to do what we want and not what the big copyright supporters want.

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      • icon
        Violynne (profile), 9 Sep 2015 @ 6:46am

        Re: Re:

        Here's the thing about the FCC: Tom Wheeler himself admitted the rules the FCC governed were problematic for him many years ago.

        It wasn't the public outcry which started changing policy, it was a personal experience, which is often the case many come to "see the light".

        The fact Wheeler did an about-face surprised everyone, especially those here at Techdirt who were concerned another player from "Big Corporation" had the front seat.

        When Wheeler stated his reasons for changing the rules, everyone changed their opinions. The "Big Corporations" when from loving their shill to hating him while the public now loves him.

        It can go down as one of the most unprecedented changes in FCC history, and all because of a personal experience. It's as though he was planning and calculating for many years just to pull this off.

        Unfortunately, and as I've said many times before, the FCC is all bark and no bite. It may have the power to change definitions of our communication systems, but it has absolutely no power to control what happens to them.

        Even if "net neutrality" passes 100% by the FCC, we're still going to see price gouging, caps, throttling, and other nefarious tactics taken because changing broadband into a utility doesn't negate pricing issues.

        The FCC has no control in that arena, which befalls the FTC to investigate and punish as necessary, and we clearly see what a wonderful job they've done over the decades. "Here, AT&T, have a $100 million fine after making billions from your scam."

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        • identicon
          Baron von Robber, 9 Sep 2015 @ 7:05am

          Re: Re: Re:

          I agree with most of the above, but...

          "the FCC is all bark and no bite."

          Didn't the FCC take a 9 digit bite out of a corporation recently for falsely advertising "unlimited" or throttling recently?

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  • identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 8 Sep 2015 @ 2:11pm

    And if the people do weigh in it gets worse anyway. Not much we can do short of putting these people on notice that lies told to advance bad policy will dire have consequences.

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    • identicon
      Anonymous Coward, 8 Sep 2015 @ 2:37pm

      Re:

      so to coin a phrase...

      You and what electorate?

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • icon
      Mike Masnick (profile), 8 Sep 2015 @ 3:27pm

      Re:

      And if the people do weigh in it gets worse anyway.

      Except, last time, it didn't. They actually did improve the policy.

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    • identicon
      Anonymous Coward, 8 Sep 2015 @ 3:50pm

      Re:

      … if the people do weigh in…
      It's awfully easy for people to misunderestimate the weight and inertia of people in a continent-spanning nation of 300 some-odd million. (Especially when a lot of them pig-out on potato chips and cola—but I digress.)

      It takes tremendous effort to get even a small fraction of those people to change their minds about anything. But when they do hold an opinion…

      You know why they had to kill off the vast herds of buffalo on the Great Plains? Ain't a fence never been built 'd stop a buffler when he got his mind set on going somewheres. (These days, we probably do have some-at better fence techology. Electrification, don'cha know.)

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  • identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 8 Sep 2015 @ 2:21pm

    What we really need is more public protection from Big Copyright. Between the toothless false DMCA repercussions, the widespread Youtube ContentID abuse, the ever-shrinking Public Domain, patent trolls and penalty-free censorship, the system is tilted way too far in favor of 'guilty until proven innocent' rules and the public has little recourse against it. It is literally doing the opposite of what copyright was (truly) intended for.

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 8 Sep 2015 @ 2:30pm

    Every study, when Mike likes the conclusion, is "well respected and credible."

    Every study, when Mike doesn't like the conclusion, is "ridiculous and debunked."

    Is everything black-and-white in Mike's World?

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    • identicon
      Anonymous Coward, 8 Sep 2015 @ 2:54pm

      Re:

      The way you imply it - makes it sound like he approves of respected and credible studies, and doesn't approve of ridiculous and debunked studies...

      If you're trying to imply something otherwise, you've failed at providing any sort of evidence.

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

      • This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it
        identicon
        Anonymous Coward, 8 Sep 2015 @ 3:14pm

        Re: Re:

        Evidence?

        http://wondermark.com/1k62/

        But seriously, do you read this site with your critical thought engaged? If you did you wouldn't need proof, it's blindingly obvious in what is written day after day. Take your blinkers off.

        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

        • icon
          tqk (profile), 8 Sep 2015 @ 5:01pm

          Spam.

          Spam.

          reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

        • icon
          Karl (profile), 8 Sep 2015 @ 9:23pm

          Re: Re: Re:

          Comparing Techdirt to the GamerGate assholes, is pretty much guaranteed to signal to everyone else that you are 100% full of shit.

          reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

          • identicon
            Anonymous Coward, 8 Sep 2015 @ 10:39pm

            Re: Re: Re: Re:

            The sealion isn't a gamer gate only thing.It was adopted as one by reddit, but it describes a much wider behaviour. (though a venn diagram of GG vs Techdirt readers would overlap somewhat)

            reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

            • identicon
              Anonymous Coward, 8 Sep 2015 @ 11:41pm

              Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

              If you read most of the commentary you'd realize few, if not none of the readerbase supports GamerGate.

              Then again, based on your posts you seem to be rather obsessively projecting your lack of thinking on everyone else.

              reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

          • identicon
            Anonymous Coward, 9 Sep 2015 @ 7:35am

            Re: Re: Re: Re:

            Wow, fuck you very much. "GamerGate assholes?" Why don't you ask ElderGod on the SRK forums who sent him a death threat to get him to stop participating in talk about GamerGate? Or hell, what about someone who fucking went *homeless* for 4 months because someone socially engineered her private medical info out of her (yes, HER) and then contacted her boss about it later, misrepresenting the severity of her condition. Boss got spooked, stopped assigning her hours, so she had no income to pay her rent with. Lived out of her car for 4 months. All this happening because she was "pro-GamerGate". But hell, it's not like the media would cover that sort of thing when there's a narrative of "evil misogynistic nerds" that needs pushing.

            That's not to say people on the other side of the fence are innocent, but if you think death threats have been one-sided, you are sorely mistaken.

            Fuck man, if you honestly think the world's so black and white that the media narrative of misogynistic monsters is realistic in the slightest, then I have a bridge in Paris to sell you.

            reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

      • This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it
        identicon
        Anonymous Coward, 8 Sep 2015 @ 4:51pm

        Re: Re:

        The way you imply it - makes it sound like he approves of respected and credible studies, and doesn't approve of ridiculous and debunked studies...

        You've got the order backwards. He starts with the results, and if he likes them, it's a great study done by great people using great methodologies. The reverse is true if he doesn't like the results.

        If you're trying to imply something otherwise, you've failed at providing any sort of evidence.

        Evidence is easy, especially with somebody as intellectually dishonest as Mike.

        Take, for example, the study that concluded that "patent trolls" cost the economy $29 Billion per year.

        Mike loved the results: "James Bessen and Michael Meurer, the pre-eminent researchers looking into the problems of the patent system have come out with a new study showing that, in the US alone, patent trolls had a direct cost for companies of about $29 billion." Source: https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120626/10452719493/29-billion-spent-dealing-with-patent-trolls-u s-alone-last-year.shtml

        Great results implies "pre-eminent researchers," when you're Mike. Did Mike look at where they got their data? Of course not. Great results means no need for skepticism.

        Yet, the flaws in that study have been pointed out to him. For example, here's me from over two years ago: https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20130321/03312722404/tale-two-studies-file-sharing-hurts-sales.sht ml#c617

        I brought it up again this past July: https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20150703/00001531533/venture-capital-trade-association-hires-paten t-troll-lawyers-fights-against-patent-reform-even-as-most-vcs-want-patent-reform.shtml#c191

        If you actually look at the study, it makes clear that it got its data from RPX. RPX sells insurance to companies to protect against "patent trolls." It has a vested interest in the "troll problem" being perceived as large. Worse still, it's based on secret questions asked to some of its secret clients. The methodological mistakes are elementary. For example, one cannot extrapolate broadly when there's such selection bias. Many people have explained in detail what's wrong with the study. Does Mike care? Nope.

        In July, Mike refused to look at where the data came from (RPX), and he instead insisted that the study was sound because the authors are great: "And the research was not by RPX but by James Bessen and Michael Meurer, two of the most respected voices in the space, whose work has been proven accurate time and time again. It is, of course, no surprise that some patent trolls have tried to attack it, but the overall methodology was indeed quite sound in demonstrating the extent of the problem." Source: https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20150703/00001531533/venture-capital-trade-association-hires-paten t-troll-lawyers-fights-against-patent-reform-even-as-most-vcs-want-patent-reform.shtml#c273

        I pointed out that the data was questionable, not the authors of the study who used the data: "Um, the data they based their research on was from RPX. If you were more skeptical, i.e., didn't just jump on it because you liked the way it sounded, you'd know this." Source: https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20150703/00001531533/venture-capital-trade-association-hires-paten t-troll-lawyers-fights-against-patent-reform-even-as-most-vcs-want-patent-reform.shtml#c298

        But Mike couldn't admit that the data was questionable, or even that it came from RPX (despite RPX being mentioned FOUR DOZEN times in the study itself). He instead made an excuse about how he had to run away because it was me making the point (anything but respond to the point directly): https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20150703/00001531533/venture-capital-trade-association-hires-paten t-troll-lawyers-fights-against-patent-reform-even-as-most-vcs-want-patent-reform.shtml#c331

        That's just one study, but I think you get the gist. Mike isn't critical because he doesn't care about the truth.

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        • icon
          ottermaton (profile), 9 Sep 2015 @ 5:03am

          Re: Re: Re:

          FFS. You keep links of discussions from years ago so you can grind your axe a little more?!?!?

          That's really, really sad.

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          • identicon
            Anonymous Coward, 9 Sep 2015 @ 9:26am

            Re: Re: Re: Re:

            FFS. You keep links of discussions from years ago so you can grind your axe a little more?!?!?

            That's really, really sad.


            Just pointing out that Mike blindly accepts that study because he likes the conclusions. There are many methodological problems with that study, but Mike refuses to address any of them. He instead keeps repeating the claim that the study is great. That's directly relevant here where Mike is claiming studies he likes are great and ones he doesn't like are terrible. What's sad is that Mike is so black and white, unable to acknowledge or discuss any problems in the study. If he were intellectually honest, he'd actually dive into the criticisms of that study. But he's not.

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            • identicon
              Anonymous Coward, 9 Sep 2015 @ 9:35am

              Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

              "but Mike refuses to address any of them."

              Like I said, you are a terrible terrible liar. You should stop telling lies.

              reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

              • This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it
                identicon
                Anonymous Coward, 9 Sep 2015 @ 9:42am

                Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

                Like I said, you are a terrible terrible liar. You should stop telling lies.

                Like I said, I will go through each and every claim of yours that I'm a liar. Prove it. I dare you. I welcome the challenge.

                Mike will never address my claims and evidence that he's intellectually dishonest. If he thought he could score a point against me, he'd be here defending himself. He can't so he's not.

                Bawk.

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                • identicon
                  Anonymous Coward, 9 Sep 2015 @ 10:41am

                  Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

                  "If he thought he could score a point against me, he'd be here defending himself. He can't so he's not."

                  That's another lie. Just because people have something else to do and they don't respond to everything you post doesn't mean they would respond if they could. Mike and the universe doesn't revolve around you. People are busy and have other things to do and you, being the self centered conceited person you are, expect that Mike would drop everything else he is doing and respond to your every last post because everything revolves around you. and if Mike doesn't respond to your every last nonsense post then he must be intellectually dishonest. You really need to stop thinking so highly of yourself.

                  Mike has responded to you several times and you ignore his responses. and now you come here and tell more lies that because he's not responding to you he can't. Maybe he can't respond to you because he doesn't have the time not because he doesn't have a reasonable answer.

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        • identicon
          Anonymous Coward, 9 Sep 2015 @ 7:25am

          Re: Re: Re:

          I clicked on one of those links, being naive enough to think that you may actually have a point this time, and after reading through the comments I realized that you were once again wasting my time. Oops. I would have to be more careful next time.

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          • identicon
            Anonymous Coward, 9 Sep 2015 @ 9:10am

            Re: Re: Re: Re:

            I clicked on one of those links, being naive enough to think that you may actually have a point this time, and after reading through the comments I realized that you were once again wasting my time. Oops. I would have to be more careful next time.

            Can you explain how I don't have a point? Mike is claiming that that study is great, while ignoring any criticisms about its data or methodology. How is it a waste of time to point out that Mike is failing to be skeptical? Can you actually make an argument?

            reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

            • identicon
              Anonymous Coward, 9 Sep 2015 @ 9:21am

              Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

              "Can you explain how I don't have a point? Mike is claiming that that study is great, while ignoring any criticisms about its data or methodology. How is it a waste of time to point out that Mike is failing to be skeptical? Can you actually make an argument?"

              All of your points were already well addressed in the comments. Others can read them for themselves.

              reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

              • identicon
                Anonymous Coward, 9 Sep 2015 @ 9:26am

                Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

                All of your points were already well addressed in the comments. Others can read them for themselves.

                Nice cop out. Sadly, I expect nothing more Mike supporters such as yourself.

                reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

        • identicon
          Anonymous Coward, 9 Sep 2015 @ 9:20am

          Re: Re: Re:

          "You've got the order backwards. He starts with the results, and if he likes them, it's a great study done by great people using great methodologies. The reverse is true if he doesn't like the results."

          No, that's because everything I see from pro-IP extremists are nothing but nonsense. They don't even conduct studies, they pull numbers out of thin air or they somehow conflate completely unrelated numbers.

          "Great results implies "pre-eminent researchers," when you're Mike. Did Mike look at where they got their data? Of course not. Great results means no need for skepticism."

          Yes, here is where they got their data

          http://poseidon01.ssrn.com/delivery.php?ID=18511900507101000410310507211902707401704700604105900 2118104070106085101026027101112025016100118110061032001116011114108080074016080011050064109082028069 080123070000013046008068102112064083094113124065122104005069119084007090029119022105113007022091& ;EXT=pdf

          Read it, it's explained quite well. The methodology looks pretty sound. Sure it's only one study but it is a valid data point. This study uses relevant numbers, the survey is based on direct costs to those on the receiving end of patent problems. Are the results going to be perfect? Of course not. All studies have some shortcomings. but the point is that the data used is relevant and attempts to be as unbiased as the researchers can make them given their limited capabilities. All studies are an imperfect statistic.

          Unlike the nonsense that pro-IP extremists come up with that's based on nothing or that's taking things that have absolutely nothing to do with intellectual property. Like grouping grocery store revenue with intellectual property somehow. See, the difference is that their methodology is not even based on numbers and when it is it's based on completely unrelated numbers. That's why their method is bogus. Unlike this that uses relevant numbers to make estimates.

          and, to be honest, that 29 billion dollars in direct costs seems kinda conservative. I wouldn't be surprised if it's much higher.

          "Evidence is easy, especially with somebody as intellectually dishonest as Mike."

          Wow, you're one to speak. Here is another example of your disthonesty

          https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20130321/03312722404/tale-two-studies-file-sharing-hurt s-sales.shtml#c1506

          Most of your comments here are outright dishonest. But I don't expect much of you. Your dishonesty only makes your position look bad.

          "If you actually look at the study, it makes clear that it got its data from RPX. RPX sells insurance to companies to protect against "patent trolls." It has a vested interest in the "troll problem" being perceived as large."

          It has a vested interest in finding out the truth of the matter to figure out how to make their insurance policies. If the truth of the matter is that patent laws are costly then yes, as an insurance company, they absolutely have a vested interest in presenting that because it's costing them. But if patents weren't a problem then they wouldn't have any vested interest in portraying it as such because now it's not costing them anything. So yes, their vested interest is in the truth, at least when it comes to what patents cost them (and their clients) as an insurance company. and those costs are real.

          It's also in a good position to know the problems. And note, the study was based on surveys of direct costs.

          Furthermore, you (or some other pro-IP extremist) try to criticize the source of the data as having an anti-IP vested interest when, clearly, they are pro-IP. For example

          "Nonsense. If the point was that the NVCA loves patents, then why would Mike say this: "So... it seemed really, really odd earlier this year, when a guy hired by the NVCA to appear at a Congressional hearing on patent reform argued against patent reform and suggested, if anything, that patent protections needed to be ratcheted up.""

          https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20150703/00001531533/venture-capital-trade-association-hires- patent-troll-lawyers-fights-against-patent-reform-even-as-most-vcs-want-patent-reform.shtml#c479

          but you are much much too dishonest to point this out.

          Their website, as quoted by someone (at least at the time) says

          "As the U.S. increasingly becomes a high-tech, knowledge-based economy, the importance of patents grows exponentially as the frequency by which they are sought and enforced grows with each passing year. . . .

          Significant venture capital investment is based on the existence of patents to protect an emerging company’s innovative idea and deter competitors from stealing their idea. If this investment is not protected through a strong patent system that acts as a deterrent on infringement, further investment in patent-reliant technology will decline."

          Yet just because they have some criticisms against patent trolling all of a sudden you conclude they are too bias.

          Sure, some of their members may not like patents but that's perhaps because their members were negatively impacted by them. and the survey and data reflects that. What, is the data not supposed to include those that were negatively impacted by patents? The whole point of the study is to gather information from everyone and include those that were negatively impacted by patents in order to get a broad view of things. and it's no surprise that those that were negatively impacted by patents don't like them. But your idea of a valid study is one that excludes those that were negatively impacted by patents from the study.

          "Worse still, it's based on secret questions"

          You are a terrible liar. If you lie at least try to make your lies somewhat believable. The questions weren't secret. The question being asked to its clients, as stated in that PDF, is what are their direct costs as a result of patent issues. They gathered the data from a wide range of companies and industries to make their estimate. Sounds pretty sound to me.

          But here is a piece of advice. Since you are a very very bad liar you should just try to opt to be more honest. You don't make for a good liar so why bother even trying. You've been practicing telling lies for how long and you still completely suck at it. Your lies are just as transparent now as ever. Just give up with the lies, face it, you're just not a good liar.

          "asked to some of its secret clients."

          Its clients aren't secret it's just that the clients used were made anonymous. Surveys often include anonymous data points.

          "The methodological mistakes are elementary. For example, one cannot extrapolate broadly when there's such selection bias."

          The selection bias isn't that strong. Many many companies have insurance companies or are associated with insurance companies. This is just a study by one insurance company. Surely other companies have insurance companies that face similar issues. and surely companies without insurance companies face issues as well.

          The study also includes a lot of other data as well. Read the PDF.

          "Many people have explained in detail what's wrong with the study. Does Mike care? Nope."

          No, you asserted there is something wrong with the study. No one actually pointed out anything wrong with it. Is it perfect? No study is. But it is a well conducted study that at least provides some useful analysis. Much better than the nonsense Hollywood puts out.

          reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

          • identicon
            Anonymous Coward, 9 Sep 2015 @ 9:24am

            Re: Re: Re: Re:

            and, if anything, an insurance company that protects against patent trolls has a vested interest in ensuring that patents and patent trolls continue to exist. Because if they went away there would be nothing to insure against and so the company would not be able to make money insuring against patent litigation. But of course you will just ignore that.

            reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

          • identicon
            Anonymous Coward, 9 Sep 2015 @ 9:32am

            Re: Re: Re: Re:

            (or rather, perhaps the study wasn't by the insurance company per se but the clients of the insurance company and associated clients were surveyed).

            But, yes, the study includes those that were negatively impacted by patents. No surprise there. The very fact that an insurance company exists that specializes in patent troll litigation is a cost and shows how bad our system has gotten. How much does that insurance company gross? The direct cost of patents at least equals the amount that these patent insurance companies gross since it's the clients that are paying for these patent insurance companies, that money isn't going towards anything productive (aggregate output or more innovation), and the patent insurance companies couldn't exist had it not been for patents. So yes, this problem is very costly. Probably much more than the 29 billion stated but they were probably being very conservative.

            reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

          • identicon
            Anonymous Coward, 9 Sep 2015 @ 9:40am

            Re: Re: Re: Re:

            So many points, so much of it wrong.

            Let's look at where you attack my credibility and honesty. Unlike Mike, I can stand up for myself. Unlike Mike, I will answer your attacks directly.

            You say:
            Wow, you're one to speak. Here is another example of your disthonesty

            https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20130321/03312722404/tale-two-studies-file-sharing-hurt s-sales.shtml#c1506
            I'm not sure why you say "another," as I don't see the first. If I'm missing one, please let me know.

            Here's what the comment you linked to says:
            He was, and he explained to you exactly why your criticism was wrong and he accepted their results.

            https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20150703/00001531533/venture-capital-trade-association-hir es-patent-troll-lawyers-fights-against-patent-reform-even-as-most-vcs-want-patent-reform.shtml#c273

            T he fact that you're still bringing this up - without event mentioning that Mike replied to it - shows that you are nothing more than a troll and/or a shill.
            So that's Karl claiming that Mike explained "exactly why [my] criticism was wrong."

            Here's what the comment Karl linked to says:
            I'm not skeptical of RPX's *data*. I'm skeptical of RPX *as a business*.

            And the research was not by RPX but by James Bessen and Michael Meurer, two of the most respected voices in the space, whose work has been proven accurate time and time again. It is, of course, no surprise that some patent trolls have tried to attack it, but the overall methodology was indeed quite sound in demonstrating the extent of the problem.

            Significant venture capital investment is based on the existence of patents to protect an emerging company’s innovative idea and deter competitors from stealing their idea. If this investment is not protected through a strong patent system that acts as a deterrent on infringement, further investment in patent-reliant technology will decline.

            That statement is just laughable and wrong, and goes against what top VCs have said for well over a decade, including in the study that NVCA itself participated in.
            Nowhere in that comment does Mike explain why the data from RPX is unquestionable. Mike did not, as Karl had claimed, explain exactly why my criticism (which is reflected in the criticism of many others, as I have linked to elsewhere) is wrong. Mike just says the study is by Bessen and Meurer. No duh. My point is that the DATA is from RPX. Mike doesn't even acknowledge this to be true, much less that the method by which RPX collected that data is questionable (self-selected survey of secret customers using secret data from secret questions).

            Thus Karl is wrong about Mike, and this doesn't show I'm dishonest. How am I wrong? Be specific. Use links. Use quotes. Make your case how I am dishonest, or retract your claim.

            Let's work through this first claim of yours that I am dishonest, and then we can turn to the next one. I can do this all day long. I have nothing to hide. Unlike Mike.

            reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

            • identicon
              Anonymous Coward, 9 Sep 2015 @ 9:51am

              Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

              You haven't raised a valid criticism.

              "My point is that the DATA is from RPX."

              Yeah, so?

              "Nowhere in that comment does Mike explain why the data from RPX is unquestionable."

              No such thing as unquestionable data. This is a dishonest strawman. All studies include uncertainty. All data includes uncertainty.

              "Mike doesn't even acknowledge this to be true, much less that the method by which RPX collected that data is questionable"

              Because it's not all that questionable. Is it perfect? No data is.

              "(self-selected survey"

              The survey question was inquiring into the direct costs of patent litigation. It was asking relevant clients about their costs. Seems pretty well selected as it includes relevant clients.

              "of secret customers"

              Anonymous, not secret, customers. Survey's often include anonymity.

              "using secret data"

              The data points are the direct costs that companies incurred from patent related issues.

              "from secret questions)."

              Again, the question was asking about the direct costs of patents to these companies.

              reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

              • identicon
                Anonymous Coward, 9 Sep 2015 @ 9:59am

                Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

                and if you look at pages 46 and other pages, where it says tables and figures, data is provided. The data is not 'secret'. It's there. A lot of very specific (though aggregated) data is provided.

                I really don't see what the issue is. That the individual companies and their peronal financial statements aren't included? You're just being ridiculous. Data is provided, read the PDF file.

                reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

              • identicon
                Anonymous Coward, 9 Sep 2015 @ 10:03am

                Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

                I see you're not familiar with the criticisms of this study. Neither is Mike. You should read up. The mistakes are elementary. Since they won't release the survey or its data, it is not verifiable. The data set is small and based on self-selection, so that means it can't be extrapolated accurately. The list goes on.

                If you're actually interested in what's wrong with the study, do some research. People smarter than me have written about it. For example, See Schwartz & Kesan: http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2117421 Or see Wild: http://www.iam-media.com/blog/Detail.aspx?g=454c1adc-52c3-4c2d-8981-e4716361f219 They are representative of the criticisms of the study.

                reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

                • identicon
                  Anonymous Coward, 9 Sep 2015 @ 10:26am

                  Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

                  "Since they won't release the survey or its data, it is not verifiable."

                  Are you suggesting fraud? Do you have something to back it up? The study was done by an independent researcher and the data was collected by an insurance company that, if anything, has an interest in ensuring the continuation of patent trolls. There doesn't seem to be a strong conflict of interest here. An insurance company is a convenient place to get this sort of data and so a researcher that was genuinely interested in the matter found a source that they can find relevant data. The company was nice enough to hand it over. To suggest that the data was doctored before being handed over is a tall claim and you better have some strong evidence. So far you have absolutely nothing.

                  "The mistakes are elementary."

                  You keep saying that but you haven't really pointed out any.

                  "The data set is small"

                  All data sets are relatively small compared to the entire picture but the data also includes more than just surveys. of the surveys it includes

                  "Between February and April 2012, RPX invited about 250 companies to participate in a survey of their NPE-related costs. The pool of invitees included RPX clients and non-client companies with whom RPX has relationships.

                  Most invitees were technology companies, but certain non-technology companies with NPE exposure were
                  also invited (for example retailers with e-commerce exposure). Participants provided information to the extent that doing so was consistent with their obligations to third parties. The information was aggregated and anonymized such that individual data was not disclosed."

                  I could quote it but it's pretty detailed in what it's included. The entire thing is about 54 pages of relevant information.

                  More data

                  "In addition to the survey, we also used a comprehensive database of NPE litigation developed by RPX. These NPE litigation statistics are based on cases coded Although RPX provided data for this study, RPX did not exercise control over the substance of our text. “830 Patent” in the PACER database which is maintained by the Administrative Office of the U.S. Courts.29 In case counts, RPX excludes misfiles, non-patent, false marking and other non-core patent infringement cases. When a case is transferred, RPX counts it as one case and allocates it to the venue to which it was transferred. When several cases are consolidated into one, RPX counts it as one case but with multiple defendants. When a case is severed RPX counts it as separate cases. In defendant counts, RPX rolls up operating company subsidiaries into a parent entity (Samsung Group and Samsung Electronics count as one defendant)."

                  So, like I said, a lot of relevant comprehensive data (not just the data from the surveys) were used to make, what really looks like, a very conservative estimate.

                  "self-selection"

                  I'm not sure what you mean by self selection. The data was selected to include those that were harmed by patent trolls which makes sense if the question is what harm do patent trolls cause on the economy.

                  "so that means it can't be extrapolated accurately."

                  It's an estimate. Sure no estimate is perfect but it looks like a rather conservative estimate. The methodology seems rather sound and includes a wide array of data (not just the surveys) and leans towards the conservative side (as you can clearly see by reading through it).

                  "If you're actually interested in what's wrong with the study, do some research."

                  You don't seem to know what's wrong with it (because there isn't much wrong with it). Is it perfect? No study is. But it looks like an honest attempt to come up with a conservative estimate of patent troll damage. Not perfect, sure, but no study is perfect.

                  "People smarter than me have written about it."

                  Not saying much.

                  "For example, See Schwartz & Kesan: http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2117421 Or see Wild: http://www.iam-media.com/blog/Detail.aspx?g=454c1adc-52c3-4c2d-8981-e4716361f219 They are representative of the criticisms of the study."

                  I'm waiting for you to say something substantial. You still haven't. Instead you point to other people who have also said nothing substantial.

                  reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

                  • identicon
                    Anonymous Coward, 9 Sep 2015 @ 10:36am

                    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

                    "The entire thing is about 54 pages of relevant information."

                    IOW, someone (the researcher) went through a lot of trouble to analyze and compile this very comprehensive study. Someone that doesn't seem to have anything to gain personally. A reasonable explanation for this is that the researcher is genuinely interested in investigating the matter and delivering the truth. So if you are suggesting fraud of some sort you had better have some very strong evidence.

                    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

                    • identicon
                      Anonymous Coward, 9 Sep 2015 @ 10:58am

                      Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

                      That's adorable. Shills can't seem to speak like a normal human being. Still too used to trying to tell people what to think.

                      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

            • identicon
              Anonymous Coward, 9 Sep 2015 @ 5:38pm

              Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

              No one is going to believe someone who claims to pay for a user account, spends it attacking an insulting anyone who doesn't agree with him, promises to leave the site until the year's end before logging out and spamming insults anonymously.

              You lost your benefit of the doubt and any suggestion of your "honesty" and "credibility" years ago. Get over yourself.

              reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it
      identicon
      Anonymous Coward, 8 Sep 2015 @ 5:01pm

      Response to: Anonymous Coward on Sep 8th, 2015 @ 2:30pm

      Bawk!

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

      • This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it
        identicon
        Anonymous Coward, 8 Sep 2015 @ 5:17pm

        Re: Response to: Anonymous Coward on Sep 8th, 2015 @ 2:30pm

        Bawk!

        Careful! If Mike decides to start censoring his critics again, he might do what he did before when he had all comments with that word run through the spam filter so he could approve them first. Free speech! I don't know if he's still doing it, but he had it set just a few weeks ago so that you couldn't use his last name without his prior approval. Permission culture!

        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

        • identicon
          Anonymous Coward, 8 Sep 2015 @ 5:43pm

          Re: Re:

          You think spamming insults counts as intelligent discourse?

          Small wonder few people respect copyright. Although by "respect", you really mean blind, irrational fanaticism.

          reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

        • icon
          techflaws (profile), 8 Sep 2015 @ 10:03pm

          Re: Re: Response to: Anonymous Coward on Sep 8th, 2015 @ 2:30pm

          Clicked report for your lying about being censored again. You're welcome.

          reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • identicon
    Guardian, 8 Sep 2015 @ 4:20pm

    simple

    go f yourself

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 8 Sep 2015 @ 4:36pm

    Want to save your children's lives, don't get them a cell phone. Want to keep them and yourself out of debt and out of jail, don't have a home internet connection. Of, by, and for the people, my ass. Of, by, and for the consumer, in the name of corporate and government interests. The other cord gets cut for the new year. Have a nice day...

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 8 Sep 2015 @ 4:52pm

    Shorten copyright monopoly.

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 8 Sep 2015 @ 5:23pm

    Interesting. I'm thinking of commenting, but I am not a lawyer. I do not have the full legal + cultural + technological background. I largely have a tech background with a small bit of historical and legal knowledge mixed in. Would my feedback even be meaningful given that I do not have a background that is fully informed in all aspects of all stakeholders involved?

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • identicon
      Anonymous Coward, 8 Sep 2015 @ 5:53pm

      Re:

      Would my feedback even be meaningful …?
      Are you asking whether the government really considers comments from genuine, honest-to-god, individual citizens? That is, if you're going to take the time to write a thoughtful comment, does some bureaucrat just throw it in a trash bin because you're not a corporate lobbyist from a faction with revolving-door jobs to hand out?

      Not to go all recursively meta on you, but wtf does “meaningful” mean?

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

      • identicon
        Anonymous Coward, 8 Sep 2015 @ 6:21pm

        Re: Re:

        Meaningful as in would partially-informed feedback stand a chance of being considered by the bureaucrats that are creating this IP Enforcement Plan?

        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

        • identicon
          Anonymous Coward, 8 Sep 2015 @ 6:38pm

          Re: Re: Re:

          … stand a chance of being considered by the bureaucrats …?
          Yes. If we qualify “chance” and “considered”.

          I have every reason to expect that the government will have people actually reading every single one of the comments that are received. Further, it is even likely that public comments which bring up substantive points will indeed be filtered up to higher levels, and that those points will actually be formally addressed in formation of the plan.

          The government uses notice-and-comment systems all over the place. And yeah—public comments do indeed have some visible effect.

          But… I've grown less idealistic about our government, and much more cynical as I've gotten older. I don't want to mislead you into thinking that public comments have more of an effect than they actually do. Sometimes, even though you provide comment to the government, and the government responds to your comment, well… Maybe more than just sometimes, often…

          To really have an impact, at the very least, you need a fair number of people who agree with you. Even then… well…

          reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • icon
    That One Guy (profile), 8 Sep 2015 @ 5:28pm

    Evidence, not emotion

    Here's a crazy idea: How about we make laws in general, and copyright laws specifically, based around evidence, rather than emotion.

    The maximalists always go with the emotional plea('Won't you think of the starving artists?'), when what I want to see used for law making are numbers, put together by multiple, independent groups, studying both past results from the law, and making evidence based predictions on future effects of proposed laws.

    If they want to change the law, or just the 'guidelines', I want it based upon evidence, not blatantly bogus emotional pleas.

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • identicon
      Anonymous Coward, 8 Sep 2015 @ 5:55pm

      Re: Evidence, not emotion

      I suggest you watch, if you haven't already, episode 1 of Adam Curtis' documentary series "The Trap".

      https://vimeo.com/91091359

      It outlines very clearly the inherent perils of a numbers based system, with a real example in the British National Health System. (via John Nash, Game Theory and the cold war).

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

      • identicon
        Anonymous Coward, 8 Sep 2015 @ 11:45pm

        Re: Re: Evidence, not emotion

        Doesn't Hollywood try to use numbers, such as Hollywood accounting, to justify their argument. Sure their numbers are completely bogus but if all numbers are bogus why is Hollywood at least trying to give the impression that numbers back up their position.

        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • identicon
      Anonymous Coward, 8 Sep 2015 @ 11:44pm

      Re: Evidence, not emotion

      Numbers ... well, what about all the grocery stores that were put into the equation to come up with those numbers. See, anyone can make numbers up and Hollywood is very very good at it.

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

      • icon
        That One Guy (profile), 9 Sep 2015 @ 4:17am

        Re: Re: Evidence, not emotion

        Hence the 'multiple, independent groups' bit. With just one group doing the research, there would always be claims of bias. However, if the research was completely open, and conducted by multiple groups as unbiased as possible, then if the numbers matched it would be a good indicator that they were legitimate.

        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 8 Sep 2015 @ 5:48pm

    Mike should just paste or link every single thread on copyright discussions from Techdirt to the Public input box good and the same for every other site .. he wants public input then give it to him... all of it.

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 8 Sep 2015 @ 6:46pm

    A suggestion

    If your calendar is filled only with lobbyists, you're doing it all wrong.

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • identicon
    TestPilotDummy, 9 Sep 2015 @ 10:33am

    A dummy's take

    In the lights of this current treason.
    de-activate MANY government agencies.

    go through these oath breakers and * CZAR's phone records instead

    Go through treasury and fed and bankster phone records instead.

    It ain't the people out here committing this TREASON, MURDER, HEALTH DISASTER AND THEFT!

    It's the OFFICIALS!

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]


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