Incredible: Google Execs Found Guilty Because Of YouTube Video; Given Six Month Suspended Sentences

from the legal-world-gone-mad dept

This is just downright ridiculous. We see all sorts of jaw-dropping legal rulings around here, but I still can't fathom how Italian law allowed the following case to be decided in this manner. As you may recall, a couple years ago, Italian prosecutors filed criminal charges against four Google execs. What was the crime? Apparently, some kids had taunted another boy with Down's Syndrome, and filmed the whole episode. In the video, the kids apparently threw a tissue box at the boy. They then uploaded the video to YouTube, along with the countless other videos uploaded to the site. Nearly a year ago, YouTube noted that 20 hours of video are uploaded to the site every minute. To think that Google should automatically have knowledge of what's included in every video uploaded to YouTube is ludicrous.

But it's even more ridiculous when you realize the full story. Within hours of Google being alerted to the problems with the video, the video came down. In other words, the company acted promptly when questions about the video were raised. But, even more importantly, the video itself was used as evidence to punish the taunting teens. Now imagine if they hadn't been able to upload the video. Then the kids likely would have gotten away with the taunting, without anyone knowing about it. Why would you ever want to blame Google for providing a tool that allows stupid people to give proof of their own illegal activities? And even then, rather than filing a suit against Google the company, Italian prosecutors chose to file the lawsuit against four execs at the company, most of whom had nothing to do with the company's Italian operations.

You might think that a judge would toss this sort of lawsuit out really quickly, but that didn't happen, and now, amazingly, the court has found three of the four execs to be guilty and given them six month suspended jail sentences. I vaguely remember reading that "first time offenders" given prison sentences in Italy of three years or less get suspended sentences, so the suspended sentence part isn't surprising. But, of course, given how many videos are uploaded, it seems likely that there will be second, third and further offenses of this nature as well. It seems like Italy has just suggested Google block all access to YouTube, while also increasing the liability for pretty much any other company to operate there or have any foreign execs visit the country.

Honestly, I can't see how anyone would make a ruling in this manner and think that it makes sense. As I said when the case first came up, you would think that suing the execs of the company that made the tissue box would make more sense than suing Google's execs. Why not charge the execs of the company that made the camera that was used to film the incident? It's hard to hear about this ruling and not consider the Italian legal system to be a joke.


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  1.  
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    IronMask (profile), Feb 24th, 2010 @ 3:02am

    Wow. Simply wow. I guess it would make just as much sense to Google (Youtube) to simply back out of Italy just as they're considering doing with China (for other reasons obviously).

    They certainly can't be expected to process every video manually and still maintain a profit and if a countrys legal system can be either that stupid, biased or corrupt to make a ruling such as this, then it would probably cost them more money to continue to operate there.

    I wonder how the citizens of Italy would feel with no access to YouTube at all?

     

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    Richard (profile), Feb 24th, 2010 @ 3:05am

    Italian Courts

    do this type of stuff all the time.

    For some years the bosses of the Williams F1 team couldn't go to Italy because the courts decided that they were somehow personally responsible for the death of Ayton Senna.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Feb 24th, 2010 @ 3:13am

    Technological advancement in the vast rubberstamp market

    The Italians have a saying, Masnick. Keep your friends close and your enemies closer. And although they've never won a war or mass-produced a decent car, in this area they are correct.

    Perhaps the Italians are, in a round about way, just letting us know that in five years, their very own technological advances will leapfrog Google's. Google will be required to watch and approve every video manually or else Italy would desire being disconnected from the whole of Google. After all, the rubberstamp market affects nearly 83% of Italian households, and is very far reaching effects.

     

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    Gonun, Feb 24th, 2010 @ 3:15am

    Idiots of all sizes

    I really don't understand how people that are smart(?) enough to study law for so many years, are so dumb that they lack any hint of common sense.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Feb 24th, 2010 @ 3:32am

    europe really has gone down hill, for the continent that spawned so much enlighten thinking, its just plain said to see italy follow it's facist roots again....

     

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    fred, Feb 24th, 2010 @ 3:35am

    It wasn't a YouTube video, it as on Google Video, prior to the YouTube acquisition.

     

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    Judge Dredd, Feb 24th, 2010 @ 3:35am

    Ongoing cultural influence of Italians

    It's comforting to know that the mafia is doing well quite in Italy.

     

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  8.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Feb 24th, 2010 @ 3:54am

    See it for what it is...

    It's just another ambulance-chasing lawsuit aimed at making a quick buck.

    But what should you expect when the US graduates 10 lawyers for every engineer. Italians should be glad the engineers at Google are making the internet useful.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Feb 24th, 2010 @ 3:59am

    Re: Technological advancement in the vast rubberstamp market

    gee, the above is inaccurate on every account, except on the spirit: italian stupidity truly deserves to be slapped around... once more :-/

     

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    Anonymous Italian Coward, Feb 24th, 2010 @ 4:08am

    Not quite surprising

    I'm not quite surprised as you are, I being italian myself. Our law is so draconian, and our law representatives so backward, that I'm actually more surprised about how little time it took them to get to this sentence than about the sentence itself.

    Btw, there was *NO* sign of this case or ruling whatsoever in the media, just as a simple indication of the state of things around here.

    I hate this f***ed up country. There seems to be very little revolutionary signs, but while they get things rolling, we're going to swallow a lot more of this crap.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Feb 24th, 2010 @ 4:16am

    Re: See it for what it is...

    It's not really quick since italian justice is so very slow, and it's not even a buck, since the parents pressed charges for the "general principle" and not for punitive damages to be cashed in.

    On another astonishing note, the family of the kid even dropped their requests during the trial but still prosecutors went on and got the court to emit a conviction verdict.

     

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    John Doe, Feb 24th, 2010 @ 4:19am

    Were the google execs at their trial?

    Did the Google execs show up for the trial? Do they live in Italy or are they American citizens? If it was me, I would give them the figurative finger.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Feb 24th, 2010 @ 4:26am

    Re: Not quite surprising

    As a fellow italian I'd like to point out that while I agree on almost all your points, your depiction of the media coverage is far from being correct: all major online italian media outlets, both ICT related and mainstream, reported and commented on the conviction.

    ( http://www.pcworld.it/notizia/119853/2010-02-24/Google-condannata-per-il-video-con-pestaggio-di-raga zzo-down.html just to mention one of the many I've read this morning)

    The freaky part of that is the general consensus of the Internet-illiterate audience over the supposed Google wrongdoings.

     

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    Alberto, Feb 24th, 2010 @ 4:33am

    Found guilty of violation of privacy

    The Google execs have been found guilty of violation of privacy, not defamation (they have been absolved for that). In other terms, they should have asked a written consent to the boy involved (or rather his parents) before publishing the video. This make the whole thing even more ridiculous. In a while (an "italian" while, a few months), the written sentence shall be available so it will possible to fathom the deep stupidity of the whole story.

     

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    don't care, Feb 24th, 2010 @ 4:52am

    pffft

    youtube is the web equivalent of those painful reality shows we see on tv. i have looked at the site and cringed at the content much the same way dancing with the minor celebs makes me cringe, chocolate rain? yecch. why is it that accountability should not be forced on the execs? don't post it immediately, wait till it is viewed, if that makes the site fail, so what? watching children beat on each other is not what it is for, yet that is what it is becoming. you want to see idiots hurt themselves in the groin watch those funniest home video shows, you want to see bad singers with the occasional good one in for luck, watch any idol show, dancers?..... you get the point. just because it has an illusion of freedom to it does not mean crap. it is not anything more than revenue raising. let them use some of that revenue to make themselves and it more accountable and responsible.

     

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    eclecticdave (profile), Feb 24th, 2010 @ 4:57am

    Google's response

    Google's response here ... they say they plan to appeal.

    http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2010/02/serious-threat-to-web-in-italy.html

     

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    Chronno S. Trigger (profile), Feb 24th, 2010 @ 5:31am

    Re: pffft

    You do realize just how insanely and absolutely stupid that comment was right?

    If Google is forced to review every single video uploaded then every single website that has any user generated content must do the same. Now, assuming that this wouldn't become corrupted like everything else, the crap would still be there. The guy getting hit in the nuts by a football, the bad dancing, the crappy singing, they would all still be there. The good stuff would be kicked out for being to violent, vulgar, or copyright infringing. All (seen heard or written) online content would turn into some dumbed down version of TV (and that's saying something).

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Feb 24th, 2010 @ 5:41am

    I just realized something, many of the forums and wiki's I do some admin work for have blocked the entire ip range of Italy. Maybe this is why...

     

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    known coward, Feb 24th, 2010 @ 5:48am

    Once again, Americans know best

    Apparently googles business model for YouTube violates Italian law. So we immediately jump on the Italian’s. Nothing like an Ugly American in the morning.

    I do not know if Italian law contains safe harbor provisions. I will leave that to the Italian legal system. But if there is no safe harbor concept, Google could very well be guilty. If there is a privacy requirement, that Google does not follow by definition of how they do business, that is too bad for Google. They can either change their policy, pull out of the country or accept the penalties for breaking Italian law.

     

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    Wolfy (profile), Feb 24th, 2010 @ 5:53am

    This sets precedent

    I think the real aim here is to strengthen the pro copyright stance. The execs here have been found guilty of basically a third party using their tools in a negative way. This sets a precedent in Italian law. Soon, Italian lawyers will be able to take the owners of torrent websites to court directly. After all, it doesn't matter that Youtube can't review every one of its videos, so therefore the likes of Piratebay will have no defense.

     

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  21.  
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    Giorgio Malagutti, Feb 24th, 2010 @ 5:55am

    Re: Idiots of all sizes

    The video is about a small kid with Down syndrome being beaten for fun.
    The video remained online for 2 months ignoring the complaints of decent people.
    Asking that such videos are removed immediately makes Italians fascists?
    What Italians (most of them) think is that it is mandatory that you provide a real identity when you upload a video.
    So you are not tempted to upload videos that offend human dignity.

     

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    Giorgio Malagutti, Feb 24th, 2010 @ 6:01am

    Re:

    People complained about the video and they ignored the complaints so the video remained online for 2 months.
    What if the video contained, say, the slaughter of an American hostage?

     

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    Wolfy (profile), Feb 24th, 2010 @ 6:07am

    Re: Re: Idiots of all sizes

    Did you not read the article?
    Okay the video was up for two months (you say, I honestly don't know how long) but remember, for every minute that passes in our world, 20 HOURS OF VIDEO ARE UPLOADED. And that was last year's reporting. There are millions upon millions of videos that people have flagged as abusive etc. All right, in an ideal world, two months is two months too long, but this isn't an ideal world. This is a company with finite resources, and it does take time to go through the "This video is abusive" reports.
    Plus, its the four execs who were given (albeit suspended) jail time! They had NOTHING to do with the video. Once they became aware of the problem, they took it down. And yet, for doing the right thing, they're found guilty of "invasion of privacy".

     

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    ....Really, Feb 24th, 2010 @ 6:11am

    Re: Re: Idiots of all sizes

    Most Italians? Talk for yourself. Or are you part of the "popoletto?" Then... no need to argue. Lost cause.

     

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    Rikuo (profile), Feb 24th, 2010 @ 6:13am

    Re: Re:

    It doesn't matter what the content was. The problem here is that they DID TAKE DOWN THE VIDEO. Okay, two months is bad, but it eventually got taken down. And the execs who did TAKE DOWN THE VIDEO, get jail time?
    You're going on about "They complained" and "2 months". Remember a complaint/accusation is not enough. Google have to investigate. They have millions upon millions of videos that have complaints. Of course it took a while.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Feb 24th, 2010 @ 6:18am

    Re: Re: Idiots of all sizes

    Just a question, but if the kid being tormented didn't have Downs syndrome, would we have had such an out cry?

    I think not.

    What the kids did was wrong, yes. They were also punished for their crimes using the very video the uploaded.

    Now, just for argument's sake...let's say they had converted part of it to an animated gif and posted it on their MySpace page. Would that make the owners of MySpace responsible? What if they had of converted it to a flash video and embedded it on their home page? Would that have made the company who hosted the website responsible?

    Logically speaking, the answer would be no. But with this ruling, it very well might.

     

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    mdmadph (profile), Feb 24th, 2010 @ 6:21am

    This has nothing to do with Rights, and everything to do with Berlusconi not wanting more vidoes of him being hit in the face with minatures uploaded to Youtube.

    If they can make it difficult enough for Youtube, they'll either pull out, or give the Italian PM the control he wants.

     

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  28.  
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    Marcus Carab (profile), Feb 24th, 2010 @ 6:22am

    Re: Re:

    Um, I am pretty sure the video was taken down within a few hours of them being notified. At least that's what this post and everything else says.

     

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  29.  
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    se-po, Feb 24th, 2010 @ 6:23am

    Back to middle-age

    Italy is at the stone-age from a technological point of view.
    Silvio Berlusconi, our Prime Minister, has the property of 3 TV channels out of 8, while direct controls 6 (the parliament has the control of the 3 state channels).
    Internet (and YouTube as is mainstream representation) can be a new medium, quite free from the control of the restricted italian lobby.
    Well, with these sentence I'm feeling we are going towards a Chinese model :-(

     

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  30.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Feb 24th, 2010 @ 6:23am

    Re: Re: Re:

    So you really think that if I uploaded the video of an american hostage being torn to pieces by terrorists it would take them 2 months to take it down?

     

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    Marcus Carab (profile), Feb 24th, 2010 @ 6:23am

    Re: Technological advancement in the vast rubberstamp market

    +1 for the Jack Donagy quote.

     

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  32.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Feb 24th, 2010 @ 6:35am

    Re: Once again, Americans know best

    If it makes you feel any better, not every on this site is American, and yet still fell that this ruling is wrong.

    Last I checked, Italy was a member of the EU. Also, last I checked the EU has safe habour laws.

     

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  33.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Feb 24th, 2010 @ 6:36am

    Re: Re:

    before you make things up perhaps you should quote the article that states that proper notification was delivered to google then google sat on it for 2 months. If by complaints you mean people going on the comments section and whining about the video then you are a little thick in the head.

     

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    btr1701 (profile), Feb 24th, 2010 @ 6:39am

    Re: Re: Speech

    > What if the video contained, say, the slaughter
    > of an American hostage?

    In America, we have this thing called the 1st Amendment which would prohibit the government from banning such a video, even if it contained the depiction of an American hostage being killed.

    The government certainly couldn't criminally charge executives of the hosting company, put them on trial and convict them, for what is protected speech in the USA.

    We thankfully haven't reached the point (as Europe has) where merely hurting someone's feelings or offending them can get you thrown in prison.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Feb 24th, 2010 @ 6:39am

    Re: Re: Idiots of all sizes

    before you make things up perhaps you should quote the article that states that proper notification was delivered to google then google sat on it for 2 months. If by complaints you mean people going on the comments section and whining about the video then you are a little thick in the head.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Feb 24th, 2010 @ 6:40am

    Re: Re: Re: Idiots of all sizes

    But if what you stated was true, YouTube would be full of sex and/or worse. And it is not, is it?
    So the filters exist and they somehow work efficiently.
    Therefore I must conclude that the sites are protected from some 'wrong things' but not from others.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Feb 24th, 2010 @ 6:42am

    Re:

    In my opinion Berlusconi has nothing to do with the Google Video incident, as a matter of fact in Italy the judicial system is separated from the executive branch.

    While I'm not trying to defend the guy at all, it must be noted that the vast circulation of the videos depicting the aggression he suffered gained him quite a lot of public attention and consensus between italians, as he was seen as the innocent victim of the lunacy of his political and social foes. His public figure immediately revamped on national polls.

     

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  38.  
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    btr1701 (profile), Feb 24th, 2010 @ 6:42am

    Re: Re: Idiots of all sizes

    > Asking that such videos are removed immediately
    > makes Italians fascists?

    No, putting people on trial and convicting them in criminal court for hurting someone's feelings (by proxy, no less) makes them fascists.

     

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    don't care, Feb 24th, 2010 @ 6:42am

    Re: Re: pffft

    it is a dumbed down version of tv. without the regulations to protect those that can not protect themselves. being a parent of 2 boys and a hands on mental health worker, if i was to find out that someone had posted the torture,(mild or otherwise),of my son on that site. no. there has to be someone to regulate it. you can not tell me that more than a few of the kids that do beat on each other don't do so, or at least continue, because they are encouraged to do so by the thrill of being posted on youtube. as someone that works in mental health i know as fact, that the stigma can stay for life or in the most extreme cases cause someone to end their life. i know that youtube can be(rarely) enjoyable, but with cyber bullying rising at such an exponential rate, and children killing themselves over that, then something has to be done. now as to the poor downs syndrome child that was hurt, the fool that wrote the story above doesn't consider the fact that it may have happened because of the opportunity these kids had to have there 15 seconds of fame. i think that when you post it must be traceable in the least or otherwise regulated as is tv so that those that need it can be protected.

     

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  40.  
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    btr1701 (profile), Feb 24th, 2010 @ 6:46am

    Re: See it for what it is...

    > It's just another ambulance-chasing lawsuit
    > aimed at making a quick buck.

    It was a criminal trial, not a civil lawsuit, genius. The defendants were found guilty and given suspended prison sentences. There were no "bucks" involved, quick or otherwise.

     

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    Rikuo (profile), Feb 24th, 2010 @ 6:53am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Idiots of all sizes

    Um, all I have to do is search "Lesbian orgy" and I get a ton of porn on the 'tube.

     

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  42.  
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    btr1701 (profile), Feb 24th, 2010 @ 6:55am

    Re: Re: Re: pffft

    > without the regulations to protect those that
    > can not protect themselves.

    Why is it that people like you always have a knee-jerk reaction to demand regulation for everything you don't like? The government is not the end-all, be-all solution to all of life's problems. Nut up and deal with it yourself instead of running to Big Nanny Government every time someone hurts your feelings.

    Regulating YouTube won't stop kids from picking on each other. Kids have been doing that since long before there was an internet and they'll keep on doing it no matter what regulations are passed. As long as kids are going to pick on each other, I think it's a good thing that they're stupid enough to videotape the evidence and post it online where the authorities have easy access to it without needing a warrant or anything else. This actually *helps* catch the culprits and punish them accordingly. Why it is that you politically-correct do-gooders don't get that is beyond me.

     

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    Free Capitalist (profile), Feb 24th, 2010 @ 6:55am

    Re: Re: Idiots of all sizes

    So you are not tempted to upload videos that offend human dignity.


    ... or provide a free video hosting service,
    or be an executive of a company that does anything with content,
    or create content not pre-approved by Vatican dogmatists
    or speak your mind
    or have any hope of escaping tyranny in the 3rd millenium

     

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  44.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Feb 24th, 2010 @ 6:59am

    Re: Re: Re: Re:

    Because a kid being bullied is the same as terrorists killing people.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Feb 24th, 2010 @ 7:06am

    Re: Re: See it for what it is...

    Well, the lawyers sure made some "bucks". Or is that "euros"?

     

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    Chronno S. Trigger (profile), Feb 24th, 2010 @ 7:11am

    Re: Re: Re: pffft

    Well then, make sure to blame yourself and throw yourself to the proverbial dogs. You are responsible for those kids so that makes you way more responsible for others actions then the owners of Google.

    If I ever saw a video on Youtube about my cousin (who is retarded) being picked on, I wouldn't go after Youtube, I'd go after the people who did it (with a vengeance). Blaming Youtube and insisting that the Internet be moderated is just sweeping the problem under a rug. This kind of mindset is a major problem today, it allows the problem to fester (it's why bullying is so bad today) while making everything look all pretty. This form of denial makes you just as much of a peace of filth as the kids doing this.

     

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    Chronno S. Trigger (profile), Feb 24th, 2010 @ 7:14am

    Re: Re: Re: Re:

    In that case the US government would step in and have it taken down quickly. Hay, just like what happened when the Italian police stepped in.

     

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    btr1701 (profile), Feb 24th, 2010 @ 7:23am

    Re: Re: Re: See it for what it is...

    > Well, the lawyers sure made some "bucks".
    > Or is that "euros"?

    Only the lawyers defending the Google execs. The prosecutors are government workers on salary. Not exactly billing thousands an hour.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Feb 24th, 2010 @ 7:26am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: pffft

    That is the point, is it not? If they did not have the video, they would have nothing to prosecute the kids with. If they did not prosecute the kids, they could have written it off as kids lying. Further, without the conviction the video brought about, we could say that the children in Italy are so cultured they do not pick upon each other.

    If not for the video, those kids would not have been called out, and they would not have been punished, and Italy would not have had to admit it has bullying. If you can sweep it under the rug, you can keep your outward appearance of purity.

    Damn you Google! How dare you make governments realize children can be mean!

     

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    Michial Thompson, Feb 24th, 2010 @ 7:37am

    What part are we not hearing????

    Little mikee m, what are you not telling us, did the execs try refusing to give the video to the police after it was taken down? Did they try to do something else that would wrap them up as accomplices after the fact?

    Little mikee m is notorious for telling us only the part of the story that furthers his agenda and nothing else, and even trying to deny that there is even more to the story than just his little agenda furthering piece.

     

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    Chronno S. Trigger (profile), Feb 24th, 2010 @ 7:47am

    Re: What part are we not hearing????

    That's the great thing about anonymous user commenting. If something is wrong it usually gets posted. And with over 650K readers (just RSS), that's a lot of eyes. Now, the only corrections or additions that anyone posted were the one about it being Google Video and not Youtube and the video was up for two months before the Italian police got involved.

    If you can provide evidence that the Google execs tried to hinder the police investigation, then post it. I'm open minded enough that it would probably change my entire opinion about this article. But remember, they didn't get convicted of hindering a police investigation, the got convicted of violating privacy laws.

     

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    Tailsnake, Feb 24th, 2010 @ 7:51am

    Re: What part are we not hearing????

    You can try to argue that about Techdirt, but this isn't a small opinion piece, it's big news. Would BBC have the same vested interests as Mike?

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/8533695.stm

     

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  53.  
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    Alex Bowles (profile), Feb 24th, 2010 @ 7:52am

    Re: Re: pffft

    Exactly. And with YouTube effectively blocked, how do people get video? That's right, through television. And who made his billions in television? That's right, the galacticly corrupt Prime Minister, Silvio Berlusconi. Not coincidentally, Berlusconi has peen pushing for a law that requires state permission for every upload to YouTube. The rational is that YouTube is a broadcast medium, that broadcasting requires licensing, that individuals posting videos online are - strictly speaking - broadcasters, and that they must follow the law designed to govern broadcasters. He, of course, is Italy's biggest broadcaster. Also, the guy in charge of broadcast law enforcement. Oh, and famously hostile to competitors. Thanks to Google and YouTube, 'competitors' now means 'every Italian online'. Now do you see how this works?

     

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  54.  
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    Michial Thompson, Feb 24th, 2010 @ 7:56am

    Re: Re: What part are we not hearing????

    First of I do not hide behind Anonymous postings, and second I am ASKING, not stating...

    Little mikee m is notorious about not posting the entire story, and only posting the parts that further his agenda, so everything he writes I question what more exists.

    In this case I'm willing to bet there is more to the story that is being opening reported. And I doubt that it is political in nature too.

     

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  55.  
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    don't care, Feb 24th, 2010 @ 8:10am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: pffft

    oh my aren't you just the knee jerk don't read everything before i decide what to say fool. cyber-bullying is not about gaining evidence for conviction, it is a phenomenon that is hard for the victims to forget, because it is seen world wide. now find some empathy and think as to what it would be like to have the world see you humiliated. when it is hard enough to deal with in the schoolyard, the effects are long lasting because it is so far reaching. i am not being politically correct, i am a person that works in the field of mental health dealing with adolescents and seeing first hand the effects of ptsd that bullying does create. a one off incident we have all been involved with and generally we all survive unscathed. but if the world sees it, then it is no longer one off. it is there every time we imagine it being clicked on and viewed, or if those that can muster the courage and view it themselves, they know exactly how many people have seen it. your ignorance is sparkling in it's humor, to say that it aint so bad that your pain can be seen by billions cause we caught them."you know that stick that broke your arm, i snaped it. is you arm healed now?" say as much as you want, but as you throw out all your opinions based on belief, i will use facts learnt through knowledge. the last time i was accused of being politically correct was when a father did not get the almost daily beatings he was giving his boy was why the,(funny and intelligent),kid was failing his classes. it tends to be the response of those that think that wrong is ok and political correctness is infringing on a freedom, i hate political correctness. it doesn't tell me how to treat others. respect does. i find that those that think political correctness is a real not created concept lack respect for others and need to use it instead.
    the fact that i find youtube on the whole, very banal and vapid, does not diminish the point. these kids that are the victims of bullying(and assault as that is what bullying is legally) need protection before it happens. and as adults with any kind of empathy or heart, if it's happened to you then you gotta know what i mean,we have to stop it. as i said in my second post cyber bullying is happening at an exponential rate. just check on line

     

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  56.  
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    WammerJammer (profile), Feb 24th, 2010 @ 8:14am

    Incredible:

    With the Draconian copyright laws being passed in Europe and Australia it has become time for the rest of the world to stop doing business with them. I refuse to let my company do business with any country or Union that is so shortsighted that it puts corporations before their people.
    Who needs them anyway? Europe contributes nothing to the well being of the world. They can't even man and fund NATO properly. They are just a cop out and let other countries carry the load. They can be cut off. I can think of no products that I need from Europe. It really seems that the MPAA and the RIAA are working overtime bribing European officials. Man they must be getting rich!

     

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    wallow-T, Feb 24th, 2010 @ 8:15am

    Combine this with Germany's ruling in the Rapidshare textbook case, announced today, and one draws a picture that European governments intend to shut down operations which allow user-uploaded content. Period.

    The copyright industries are smiling today. For them, the Internet has always been acceptable collateral damage.

     

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  58.  
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    Chronno S. Trigger (profile), Feb 24th, 2010 @ 8:16am

    Re: Re: Re: What part are we not hearing????

    I did not accuse you of hiding behind anonymity (that would be hypocritical since I don't use my real name), I said that it's a good thing that we have anonymous posting. This helps people say their piece without fear. This helps people to add corrections and additions.

    Mike is known for not adding some information but I have found that it's mostly inconsequential things that other people make sound like they're important. For example, the video was posted for two months before it was taken down. This isn't important due to Google getting thousands of flags daily (maybe hourly). The important part, that was included, was that the video was taken down right after the Italian police contacted Google and Google helped the police find the people who posted it.

    You wrote your post as an accusation. You made it sound like Mike knew something that he wasn't saying. From the sounds of this post I'm replying to, I'm right and it was an accusation. If you posted it as saying you think there may be more to it, then I wouldn't have said anything.

     

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  59.  
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    Mark Peskin (profile), Feb 24th, 2010 @ 8:16am

    Politics...

    Not to question the independence of the Italian judicial system, but this decision has Berlusconi written all over it. He and his backers clearly feel threatened by any mass media that they don't own or control, and seem willing to use almost any means to discredit or clamp down on independent media...

     

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  60.  
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    techturf (profile), Feb 24th, 2010 @ 8:19am

    Re: Re: Idiots of all sizes

    I don't get this. All the reports I have seen said they took down the video "within hours" of being notified. You keep saying it took two months. Which is correct?

     

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  61.  
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    Pieter, Feb 24th, 2010 @ 8:31am

    Re: Technological advancement in the vast rubberstamp market

    The saying is in fact Chinese and is attributed to Sun Tzu (http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Friends)

     

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  62.  
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    don't care, Feb 24th, 2010 @ 8:32am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: pffft

    wha..? of course i would go after those that hurt my kids. most things do not have to be said to be self evident. wow. i am not sweeping anything under any carpets. CYBER BULLYING. i mean my lord do you guys even read the stuff you comment on. of course you blame the cyber part of cyber bullying. ergo the name. and that first paragraph of yours chronno, if the context is that if my boys did something as abhorrent as to harm your cousin. the shame i would feel of my sons could not be placed in words. yes i am more responsible for my sons actions than any website could ever be, does not diminish it's part. international forums(ironically the last was online)on bullying specifically talk about the increase in bullying as a direct result of the internet. the evidence is to much to ignore. calling it a conspiracy theory (fox mulder hide the aliens) so that the italian president can gain more $$$ in his account. woooo

     

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  63.  
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    don't care, Feb 24th, 2010 @ 8:37am

    Re: Re: Re: Speech

    it is a revenue raising media outlet online. any tv station would not show it for fear of censorship laws. they do exist.

     

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  64.  
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    btr1701 (profile), Feb 24th, 2010 @ 8:43am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: pffft

    > now find some empathy and think as to what it
    > would be like to have the world see you humiliated

    I'm sure it wouldn't be pleasant. However, my response would not be to try and impose government restrictions on the entire world just because my feelings got hurt.

    > your ignorance is sparkling in it's humor, to say
    > that it aint so bad that your pain can be seen by
    > billions cause we caught them

    Considering the fact that I didn't actually say that, you're really in no position to criticize others for ignorance.

    > i will use facts learnt through knowledge

    Wow. Just wow. All I can say is behold the irony.

    > a father did not get the almost daily beatings
    > he was giving his boy was why the,(funny and
    > intelligent),kid was failing his classes.

    That's just flat out incoherent and makes no linguistic sense. Is this another one of those facts you "learnt" through knowledge?

    > the fact that i find youtube on the whole, very
    > banal and vapid, does not diminish the point

    Nor is your personal opinion of YouTube even remotely relevant to this issue. It doesn't suddenly become okay to regulate a perfectly legal business out of existence merely because you personally don't much care for its product.

    > (and assault as that is what bullying is legally)

    You need to re-famialiarize yourself with the law. Some instances of bullying are assaults, but not all. Not even most. And that cyber-bullying you've gone about? Not an assault at all.

    > if it's happened to you

    It did happen to me when I was a kid. I had my older brother teach me how to fight and I stood up for myself. That put an end to the bullying real quick.

     

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    don't care about don't care, Feb 24th, 2010 @ 8:48am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: pffft

    Hey don't care,

    Want a knee jerk reaction? Shut the hell up! If I had my way I'd lock asses like you up for the general purpose of perverting freedom!

    Crap has happened to me and friends, and family. You know what SMART people do, they go after the offenders, not the medium used. If there are long lasting effects on the victim, either the victim needs to learn to be thick skinned or be a victim the rest of their lives. The world has NEVER been a fair place, and never will be. There will ALWAYS be bullies, and I personally LIKE the fact that Youtube helps us find the young ones, and gives us the means to help find and teach those bullies that what was done was wrong.

     

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  66.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Feb 24th, 2010 @ 8:49am

    Re: Re: Re: Speech

    So the government did not ban the photos of coffins, right?
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A55816-2003Oct20?language=printer
    Being realistic, what would happen to you if you violated that ban? I am not being sarcastic, just asking.

     

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  67.  
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    Joe, Feb 24th, 2010 @ 8:59am

    Re:

    It seems to me the big question is how long it took Google to take down the video. Mike says a couple of hours in which case I would agree with him that this case is ridiculous. But from the couple of articles I read, the prosecutors are saying it was a much longer period of time.

    In my mind, that response time would be a factor here. if Google was asked repeatedly over weeks or months, before finally dealing with this, then it does seem like that part of immunity should be dealing with issues such as this in a reasonable time frame.

    Up till now, i've seen no clear information on just how long it actually took so I don't want to make a call without knowing more details. Anybody have info on this?

     

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  68.  
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    say what?, Feb 24th, 2010 @ 9:04am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: pffft

    Wow...don't care, for someone who works in 'the field of mental health', you show a REMARKABLE lack of knowledge of spelling, punctuation, sentence structure, or the existence of a thing called a paragraph. If you work with those experiencing mental health issues, how do you help if you cannot communicate effectively?


    As far as this issue goes, if your opinion is that Google is the reason that these children bullied another child, then I wonder what was the cause of the MILLIONS of documented and undocumented cases of bullying over the last hundred years. As a matter of fact, as someone who was bullied as a child, having a way of PROVING the bullying occurred (since the bullies are stupid enough to post the evidence themselves) would have been appreciated greatly, because all going to a parent does is increase the abuse from the bully in the long run.

    So, between those two factors, I fail to see anything in your unintelligible diatribe that would lead me to believe you have any association AT ANY LEVEL with the 'mental health field'.

    Fail

     

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  69.  
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    Chronno S. Trigger (profile), Feb 24th, 2010 @ 9:15am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: pffft

    If a note was written that was hurtful, would you blame the person who passed the note? They have the ability to monitor everything that comes into their possession. Hell, it'd be easier then the insanity you ask of Google.

    Do you blame the Department of Transportation for speeding or car crashes? It's physically possible for them to prevent every single one of those, but it's exactly as unreasonable as what your asking of the entire Internet.

    My point being, cyber bullying is the exact same thing as bullying. You ask why take the cyber out of bullying, I say, why add it in the first place. It's the same thing on a different medium. Pretending it's anything else is still taking the blame off of those truly responsible. It's a step that says to these bullies that it's OK, it's not their fault, they did it because of Youtube. And just because you drew the line at blaming the passer of the note doesn't mean anyone else will.

    Do you ask that Mike censor my comments because I called you wrong? What if someone else found my comments to you offensive?

     

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  70.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Feb 24th, 2010 @ 9:17am

    Re: Re: Re: Idiots of all sizes

    In YouTube you can create a fake account, upload something really bad (think the worst) and get away with it because nobody will ever know who you really are. NO-BO-DY.
    If you are a decent person you do not have a button with 'notify inappropriate content' to make sure that the thing will be removed soon. So it will stay there for months.
    On top of this note that Google makes money out of it.
    I can agree with you that jail is too much, but do you think that this is how it should work? No control whatsoever?

     

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  71.  
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    harbingerofdoom (profile), Feb 24th, 2010 @ 9:21am

    Re: Re: Re: Idiots of all sizes

    I think we need to move away from calling it fascism since its really not fascism.
    Communist governments would have done basically the same exact thing only without the 'tediousness' of a trial.

    its not a human rights issue either... making fun of a kid with a disability is NOT on par with genocide, please stop your idiotic attempts to make it so. all you are doing is watering down the importance of actual human rights issues.

    its kids being kids. the universe does not care about you and the universe does not believe in human rights nor your issues with making the world a nicer place. spank the brats that did it (however you would like to define "spank" in this case) and be done with it.


    but please... quit applying political tags to this and start calling it what it really is...
    -- stupidity on a grand canyon scale

     

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  72.  
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    The Infamous Joe (profile), Feb 24th, 2010 @ 9:23am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: pffft

    Not that I agree with "don't care" in any way, shape, or form, but 'learnt' is an acceptable non-American spelling for 'learned', mostly in England.

    I only know because I was going to correct someone on it and decided to look it up first.

    More info here. :)

     

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  73.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Feb 24th, 2010 @ 9:24am

    Re: Re:

    You are right. In my opinion another key factor is the fact that Google does not provide a simple way to send a warning that the content should be taken down quickly.
    They should not be sent to jail for it, but it's pretty bad that this feature is missing.

     

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  74.  
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    NookSurfer, Feb 24th, 2010 @ 9:29am

    Wow...the sentence they've received is just too extreme for the situation. It would warrant a public announcement/apology of some sort...but jail time?

     

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  75.  
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    Dave, Feb 24th, 2010 @ 9:33am

    just back out of Italy

    Having read a bit about the Italian legal system, this is no suprise at all. It's amazingly ineffective. World-class, even. For a sample, and lots of other interesting info, I recommend the excellent book, The Dark Heart Of Italy.

    And as much as I like Italy, it would be very funny to see the hue and cry there if Google just pulled out.

     

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  76.  
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    The Infamous Joe (profile), Feb 24th, 2010 @ 9:53am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: pffft

    This wasn't a case of cyber bulling, pal. It was done in person-- that's just good ol' fashioned bullying.

     

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  77.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Feb 24th, 2010 @ 9:57am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Idiots of all sizes

    The future will not be kind to the control freaks.

     

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  78.  
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    The Infamous Joe (profile), Feb 24th, 2010 @ 9:57am

    Re:

    Why would it even warrant an apology? I don't understand. Do you expect an apology from the government every time some drunk plows his car into another car? I mean, without roads that would be much more difficult to pull off, right? Or maybe from Ford? No, all fault is placed on the driver, as it *should* be.

    I am not familiar with Italian politics, but this just looks ignorant or shady. (I can't decide which.)

     

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  79.  
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    michial thompsun, Feb 24th, 2010 @ 10:03am

    Re: Re: What part are we not hearing????

    Little BBC, what are you not telling us, did the execs try refusing to give the video to the police after it was taken down? Did they try to do something else that would wrap them up as accomplices after the fact?

    Little BBC is notorious for telling us only the part of the story that furthers the BBC's agenda and nothing else, and even trying to deny that there is even more to the story than just the BBC's little agenda furthering piece.

     

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  80.  
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    Brandon, Feb 24th, 2010 @ 10:06am

    Re: Were the google execs at their trial?

    According to the article I read, which I unfortunately can't find anymore, they weren't at the trial. One is based in California, one in Paris, one in London, and the other is retired and I don't remember if it said where he is from. But none of them were at the trial.

     

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  81.  
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    Jesse, Feb 24th, 2010 @ 10:23am

    In related news, the Iranian administration now looks a whole lot more credible.

     

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  82.  
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    Mike Masnick (profile), Feb 24th, 2010 @ 10:31am

    Re: Re:

    It seems to me the big question is how long it took Google to take down the video. Mike says a couple of hours in which case I would agree with him that this case is ridiculous. But from the couple of articles I read, the prosecutors are saying it was a much longer period of time.


    The video itself was up for two months, but Google was not alerted to the problems in the video until the end of those two months, at which point it took down the video within a matter of hours.

    The prosecutors argue that Google should have known about the content of the video because there were some negative comments on the video -- assuming that Google execs read all of the comments on posted videos.

    But Google was no officially alerted to the problem of the video until the video had been up for two months, and they responded by taking the video down within hours.

     

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  83.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Feb 24th, 2010 @ 10:37am

    Re: Re: Re: What part are we not hearing????

    I remember when trolls used to be intelligent. I miss those days.

     

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  84.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Feb 24th, 2010 @ 10:40am

    Re: What part are we not hearing????

    Little michee t, what are you not telling us, did you murder a group of children? Did you try to cover up your crime after the fact?

    Little michee t is notorious for being stupid, so clearly he needs to prove that he is not a murderer!!!!!

     

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  85.  
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    Free Capitalist (profile), Feb 24th, 2010 @ 10:47am

    Re: Re:

    I've got suspicions that this point has been hashed out many times on TD, but...

    We need an apology from Earth, or God, or whoever is responsible for creating the air that bullies and pervs use to fuel and support their nefarious activities.

     

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  86.  
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    Brendan (profile), Feb 24th, 2010 @ 11:10am

    Re: Re: Idiots of all sizes

    Absurd.

    Comments are not complaints. They are comments, and they mean as close to nothing as words can get.

    Sure, the content may be cruel. But Google didn't participate in the cruel behavior.

    People upload their drinking videos all the time. Should Google execs be charged with public intoxication? The suggestion is equally ridiculous.

    As for "proof of real identity," no thanks. Why?
    1) Anonymity is important for free speech, especially when free speech is not guaranteed for the speaker. (Yes, in this we have decided our rules are better than places that do not offer such freedom.)
    2) Privacy - if I have to "prove" my identity, all of my online activity can be tracked, even without "speaking." No thanks.
    3) It's next to impossible to enforce. There are myriad technical methods to evade or falsify "identifying" information that it would be futile/stupid/unjustified to take action against individuals.

    Take your government-approved communication and shove it.

     

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  87.  
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    hmm, Feb 24th, 2010 @ 11:15am

    it's probably just some wannabe company paying off the courts to cockblock google to try and increase its own market share.............

     

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  88.  
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    anymouse (profile), Feb 24th, 2010 @ 11:34am

    Re: Re: Re: What part are we not hearing????

    Obviously we aren't hearing about the huge conspiracy going on in the Italian government which hinges on using this case to advance big media companies agendas.

    How can I know there is a huge conspiracy going on? The same way you know that there is more to this story and it isn't political..... I just KNOW.... See how well that works? Statistically I have proof, 84.6% of people surveyed think this is the whole story and Italy is full of carp.... Of course 76% of statistics are made up on the spot, so don't believe everything you read.

    This story has gotten enough coverage on other mainstream media outlets that if there was 'more to the story' it would have been reported already (and you could go find it, if you knew how to do a google search).

    Some people can be so obtuse..... It just makes my tinfoil hat steam....

     

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  89.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Feb 24th, 2010 @ 12:16pm

    Re: Re: Technological advancement in the vast rubberstamp market

    Why, thank you. :-P

     

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  90.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Feb 24th, 2010 @ 12:25pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Speech

    Being realistic, what would happen to you if you violated that ban? I am not being sarcastic, just asking.

    Nothing.

    By the way, have you had a tax audit lately?
    Not planning to fly anywhere, are you?

     

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  91.  
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    PeytonFarquhar (profile), Feb 24th, 2010 @ 12:34pm

    LMAO. Google deserves whatever it gets just on principle alone. Crawling into bed with the NSA and pretending a 3 letter agency has more know-how to stop Chinese hackers is a pathetic smokescreen for what the real reason is behind the partnership.

     

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  92.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Feb 24th, 2010 @ 12:42pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: See it for what it is...

    "The prosecutors are government workers on salary. Not exactly billing thousands an hour."

    Not exactly working for free, either.

     

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  93.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Feb 24th, 2010 @ 12:44pm

    Re: Not quite surprising

    I hate this f***ed up country. There seems to be very little revolutionary signs, but while they get things rolling, we're going to swallow a lot more of this crap.

    The days of revolutions seem to be mostly over.

     

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  94.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Feb 24th, 2010 @ 12:59pm

    Re: Re: Re: pffft

    you can not tell me ...blah blah blah...

    I really doubt if anyone can tell you *anything*.

     

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  95.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Feb 24th, 2010 @ 1:10pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: pffft

    This link should help you.
    The shift key on yours seems to be broken.

     

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  96.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Feb 24th, 2010 @ 1:22pm

    Re: Once again, Americans know best

    Nothing like an Ugly American in the morning.

    How dare they criticize me!
    - Il Duce

     

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  97.  
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    Dj, Feb 24th, 2010 @ 1:26pm

    That is unbelivable

    That sort of thing happened in India. when ebay CEO was arrested because a guy was selling porn video on ebay india. Stock Market News and Views, Stock Buying and Investment Tips.

     

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  98.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Feb 24th, 2010 @ 1:28pm

    Re: Re:

    In my opinion Berlusconi has nothing to do with the Google Video incident, as a matter of fact in Italy the judicial system is separated from the executive branch.

    You don't seem to be real familiar with Italian politics.

     

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  99.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Feb 24th, 2010 @ 1:31pm

    Re: Back to middle-age

    Well, with these sentence I'm feeling we are going towards a Chinese model :-(

    Unfortunately, supposedly "free" governments all over the world are looking at what the Chinese are doing with great jealously and trying to figure out how to get away with doing the same things themselves.

     

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  100.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Feb 24th, 2010 @ 1:35pm

    Re: What part are we not hearing????

    Little mikee m, what are you not telling us, did the execs try refusing to give the video to the police after it was taken down? Did they try to do something else that would wrap them up as accomplices after the fact?

    And did those execs then rape and kill that poor kid?
    Little mikee doesn't tell us if they did that or not, does he? Nooo. Little mikee m is notorious for telling us only the part of the story that furthers his agenda and nothing else, and even trying to deny that there is even more to the story than just his little agenda furthering piece.

    /s

     

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  101.  
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    Her Royal Higness, Feb 24th, 2010 @ 1:38pm

    Re: Re: Re: What part are we not hearing????

    First of I do not hide behind Anonymous postings, and second I am ASKING, not stating...

    You look pretty anonymous to me.

     

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  102.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Feb 24th, 2010 @ 1:42pm

    Re: Politics...

    Not to question the independence of the Italian judicial system...

    I think it could use a little more of that.

     

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  103.  
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    Steve, Feb 24th, 2010 @ 1:53pm

    Google Trial

    C'mon it's ITALY. Not like it's a real country with a real judicial system, they are the laughing stock of the world. Remember the Knox trial and the joke of a prosecutor. Let see if they prosecute me for writing this!

     

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  104.  
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    Anonymous, Feb 24th, 2010 @ 1:56pm

    Berlusconi

    How much of this case do you think was influenced by Silvio? He owns television stations, newspapers and magazines. Do you think that his policies and influence are used to protect his business empire? The whole of the internet is competition for his traditional media empire. Without Youtube and site like it, more people will watch his television.

    I think it is time to tech the Italian voter a leason. Google should just block all access to all of it's services from Italy. The Italian voter will see what a barren wasteland the internet is without google's services and change their political views.

     

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  105.  
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    eclecticdave (profile), Feb 24th, 2010 @ 2:03pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Idiots of all sizes

    > If you are a decent person you do not have a button with 'notify inappropriate content' to make sure that the thing will be removed soon. So it will stay there for months.

    You mean like the Flag icon just below every video?

     

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  106.  
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    Joe, Feb 24th, 2010 @ 2:15pm

    Re: Re: Re:

    That does sound about right then. I did once report a video on You Tube as being offensive, in that case it was an anti-African immigration video. They took it down about 2 days after my request. Not lightning fast, but i would think more than adequate.

    Regarding the point by the anonymous poster, fair enough, but I think having a checkbox saying 'this is urgent' would be abused to the point of being useless. Most likely if it is urgent, multiple people would flag it and Google can process these requests on that aggregate number (community standards?) rather than personal opinion.

     

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  107.  
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    btr1701 (profile), Feb 24th, 2010 @ 3:10pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Speech

    > it is a revenue raising media outlet online

    Yes. So? You seem to think the moment you make money, the 1st Amendment suddenly doesn't apply.

    > any tv station would not show it for fear of censorship laws

    Broadcast television stations have indeed shown such things before and no one has gotten in trouble.

    It's true that the Supreme Court gives the FCC the power to regulate "decency" on broadcast television, but that doesn't apply to the internet. The Court has held that the only reason regulation of even broadcast TV is constitutional is because the airwaves are public property. The FCC has no legal authority to regulate the content of any communication medium that doesn't use the public airwaves (cable TV, the internet, telephones, etc.) .

    And even so, the penalties for violating the FCC broadcast TV decency rules is merely a civil administrative fine. The government certainly doesn't have the power to throw people in prison for being indecent on television.

     

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  108.  
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    btr1701 (profile), Feb 24th, 2010 @ 3:15pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Speech

    > So the government did not ban the photos of coffins, right?

    Nope. They refused to let the media in to photograph them, but if someone had managed to sneak a picture anyway and then published it, they couldn't have been arrested or prosecuted for it.

    There's a difference between putting up security that makes it impossible for a reporter to take a picture of something and criminally prosecuting someone for publishing information the government doesn't like.

    See New York Times Co. v. United States, 403 U.S. 713 (1971)

     

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  109.  
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    btr1701 (profile), Feb 24th, 2010 @ 3:17pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Idiots of all sizes

    > the universe does not care about you and the universe does
    > not believe in human rights nor your issues with making the
    > world a nicer place

    You responded to me, but I'm not the person making those arguments. You seem to be confused.

     

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  110.  
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    btr1701 (profile), Feb 24th, 2010 @ 3:20pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: See it for what it is...

    > > The prosecutors are government workers on salary. Not exactly
    > > billing thousands an hour.

    > Not exactly working for free, either.

    As salaried employees they're gonna make their money whether they prosecute Google or not, which negates the original assertion that this is "just another ambulance-chasing lawsuit aimed at making a quick buck".

     

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  111.  
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    btr1701 (profile), Feb 24th, 2010 @ 3:23pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: pffft

    > Not that I agree with "don't care" in any way, shape, or form,
    > but 'learnt' is an acceptable non-American spelling for 'learned',
    > mostly in England.

    I wasn't criticizing the spelling. I was commenting on the silliness of him using "facts learnt through knowledge". That makes no sense. If he has the knowledge already, he doesn't need to learn it.

     

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  112.  
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    Dale, Feb 24th, 2010 @ 3:38pm

    Recall what is often said about lawyers and the law!!

     

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  113.  
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    Marcus Carab (profile), Feb 24th, 2010 @ 4:06pm

    Re: Re: Technological advancement in the vast rubberstamp market

    You conveniently left out the rest of what Wikiquote has to say: "may also be an interpretation of text contained in The Prince"

     

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  114.  
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    David, Feb 24th, 2010 @ 4:22pm

    Sovereignty

    One thing that judges have to consider is what the precedent would be of their rulings. Nobody is considering what the precedent would be had google won. Consider the following scenario:

    I, Mr Sleazebag, realize that Google's winning exempts providers from virtually all complaints provided that they are reasonably responsive, so I register www.hotnudeitaliangirls.com and set up shop. I allow anyone to anonymously upload photos and video of hot nude italian girls (all I require is the user click a box indicating they have the legal right to upload the file). I then charge $20 a month to allow people to view my excellent collection of contributed porn.

    Now Alice broke up with her boyfriend Bob, and Bob uploads those photos to my site. Unless Alice is willing to pay the $20 to check out my site she won't be able to establish that I have her photos, and therefore won't be able to make a well formed request that I remove the files, and I can continue to sell them with virtual impunity.

    Anyone can plainly see a reasonable policy goal in requiring that user-generated content be moderated and that all interested parties grant approval for it to be published. Whether or not it is practical or cost-effective for a country to have such a low is another matter entirely.

    Yes that would make YouTube illegal, and would make Google's behaviour criminal (whether or not the responded in 2 days or 2 months). Its called sovereignty, and its been an established legal principal for centuries.

    PS. It is remarkable to me the degree to which American society has accepted things like YouTube. This opinion piece is consistent with the vast majority of other articles out there. No wonder many older individuals find Facebook/YouTube strange.

     

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  115.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Feb 24th, 2010 @ 4:33pm

    Nice way to spam your way in...and make it appear legit.

     

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  116.  
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    Spanky, Feb 24th, 2010 @ 5:13pm

    re

    individuals may be this stupid about how technology and the internet works, but by the time things like this get to the courts, i don't believe its stupidity anymore.

    There are so many times when decisions like this just don't make any logical sense, until you look at them from the POV of corruption and vested interest. Then they make perfect sense.

    And in this sense, the US makes Italy look like an amateur.

     

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  117.  
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    Mike Masnick (profile), Feb 24th, 2010 @ 7:14pm

    Re: Sovereignty

    It is remarkable to me the degree to which American society has accepted things like YouTube. This opinion piece is consistent with the vast majority of other articles out there. No wonder many older individuals find Facebook/YouTube strange.

    I'm confused. You cite no sources and no evidence that people "find Facebook/YouTube strange." You just state it as fact.

    I'm sure some people do find it strange. But history is replete with people finding new things strange. We recently wrote about people who complained about the waltz when it first became popular.

    Just because you don't understand something, it doesn't mean you legislate it away.

     

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  118.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Feb 24th, 2010 @ 7:38pm

    Re: Re: Re:

    The lawyers of the world have got you covered!

    Lawsuits Against God

     

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  119.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Feb 24th, 2010 @ 7:38pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: See it for what it is...

    As salaried employees they're gonna make their money whether they prosecute Google or not, which negates the original assertion that this is "just another ambulance-chasing lawsuit aimed at making a quick buck".

    As a salaried employee myself, let me assure you that salaries are often tied to performance. In fact, employment itself can even be terminated for lack of such performance. I've never had the pleasure of working for an employer where my performance didn't matter, but then again, I've never worked for the government either.

     

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  120.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Feb 24th, 2010 @ 7:44pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: pffft

    i will use facts learnt through knowledge

    Uh, "knowledge" *is* "facts learnt", isn't it?
    Well, maybe not in your case.

     

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  121.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Feb 24th, 2010 @ 8:14pm

    Re: re

    "There are so many times when decisions like this just don't make any logical sense, until you look at them from the POV of corruption and vested interest. Then they make perfect sense."

    What he said.

     

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  122.  
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    Auto Shipping, Feb 24th, 2010 @ 8:14pm

    .

    I have lived in Italy and it is a beautiful country, and has very sweet people, but like anything in the world nothing is perfect. Clearly it seems like a very unfair thing to have the execs punished because punishment should be held for when people fail to do something or do something wrong. In the auto shipping industry we have things come up and we do our best to resolve them and move on. This is not unfortunate that this happened for the execs, but if Google really wants to take the fight to them they can, unfortunately probably best to say it is what it is and walk away.

     

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  123.  
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    btr1701 (profile), Feb 24th, 2010 @ 8:15pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: See it for what it is...

    > As a salaried employee myself, let me assure you that salaries
    > are often tied to performance.

    Not in a government prosecutor's office. That would be serious breach of legal ethics.

    > I've never had the pleasure of working for an employer where
    > my performance didn't matter

    No one's saying performance doesn't matter. The point is, that as a government prosecutor, they're drawing the same salary no matter which case they're working. Prosecuting Google doesn't make them any more money than prosecuting a local pickpocket or murderer.

     

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  124.  
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    Cameron Boykin, Feb 24th, 2010 @ 9:19pm

    Re: Sovereignty

    Let me first say that I appreciate the your comment, since it one of the most well written dissenting comments of this thread.

    However, I don't think your example actually demonstrates a need for pre-screening content. You are right that Alice would need to pay the $20 to prove the website had photos of her, but how would pre-screening content help? On what criteria do you a suggest a website filter images? As far as I can tell, two things would need to happen during the screening process: check the image for appropriate content, and gain permission of "all interested parties", to borrow your phrasing.

    Checking the image for illegal or inappropriate content would less important on a porn site, but the important questions of "illegal according to whom?" and "what should we regard as offensive?" still remain. Should a website administrator be required to respect all laws of all nations? In this case, porn could probably not legally exist, but even for more conservative sites, the burden of keeping up with the laws of their home country is more than enough to keep them busy. It's simply not practical, and would effectively force all websites to either prohibit user-generated content, or be at a very high risk of being sued. Not to mention that any content screening would have be done by actual people who would then have the final say on whether or not you are allowed your free speech (these people would surely be required to air on the side of caution and reject anything even remotely questionable).

    "Anyone can plainly see a reasonable policy goal in requiring that user-generated content be moderated and that all interested parties grant approval for it to be published."

    While reasonable in theory, how do you implement this online? In this case, assuming we define "all interested parties" as being who ever the "hot nude Italian girl" is in the photo being submitted, how can you reliably confirm the identity of the party granting approval? Any sort of electronic signature or ID can be forged or copied easily since it would be digital, and Bob in your example could easily have had access to Alice's physical identification (state ID, credit cards. etc) to make faxes or copies. As the site administrator, you really have no way of knowing for sure whether you've just received legitimate proof of identity, or the forgeries of a scorned boyfriend.

    As a side-note, if you consider the rising trend of identity theft in the physical world, despite the best efforts of banks, police, and government to prevent it, it's hard to see how you could expect to prevent identity theft online.

    I simply don't see how you can implement a content screening system that actually prevents dishonest and unscrupulous people from doing dishonest and unscrupulous things and with the intent of posting it online. The only reasonable method would be simply to have no one post anything online. It may be a country's sovereign right to enact a law that attempts to do this, but that doesn't make it make practical or effective.

    P.S. I wonder why you are surprised that the "American society has accepted things like YouTube". I'm interested to know what the "things like YouTube" are that you refer to. Personally, I've found YouTube is an excellent source of instructional videos (with topics from cooking to racquetball to learning guitar), music videos, and original content (I've seen many independent animations and a few documentaries on the site). It's a way to experience and share video content that would have otherwise never been seen ( see: Randy Pausch's incredibly moving final lecture http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ji5_MqicxSo ).I'd hate to see such a magnificent resource be denied to Italians because of some insensitive teenage bullies.

     

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  125.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Feb 24th, 2010 @ 9:31pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: See it for what it is...

    Not in a government prosecutor's office.

    Um, OK...

    No one's saying performance doesn't matter.

    Wait. Isn't that what you just got through saying?

     

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  126.  
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    Amrinder Arora, Feb 24th, 2010 @ 9:41pm

    There is a different perspective to it

    Google execs' defense was simply that they were not involved in any way with the production of the video or uploading it onto the viewing platform. This is a bit like saying: "We didn't do any beating, we only provided the batons and a nice comfy place to carry out the beating, and umm, yes, we did make it profitable for the people to carry out the beating."

    I have written about earlier how this problem is coming, though I obviously underestimated the problem myself.

     

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  127.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Feb 24th, 2010 @ 9:45pm

    Re: Sovereignty

    How about this version:

    Now Alice broke up with her boyfriend Bob, and Bob shares those photos with some of his buddies. Unless Alice is granted the right to search people's houses at will, she won't be able to establish that they have nude photos of her, and therefore won't be able to make a well formed request that they hand them over and they can continue to view them with virtual impunity.

    Anyone can plainly see a reasonable policy goal in permitting Alice to search people's houses for such content at any time so that all interested parties can grant approval for it to be viewed.

    Sound about right?

    PS. It is remarkable to me the degree to which American society has accepted things like YouTube.

    PS. It is remarkable to me the degree to which Italian society accepted things like fascism.

     

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  128.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Feb 24th, 2010 @ 9:46pm

    Re: Re: Re: Idiots of all sizes

    Oh my God! You have a plate on your car. Your Gov't knows where you go and what you do. You live in a tyranny!
    Go remove the plate from your car now.

    Cars can hurt, videos can hurt.
    The gov't made rules to avoid that you drive drunk, hit and run away. Is that so unacceptable?

     

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  129.  
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    khin, Feb 24th, 2010 @ 9:53pm

    unfair decision

    In my point of view, the decision made by Italian authority is unfair decision. Everybody can upload and download in you tube. According to the You Tube, there are 65,000 news videos uploaded daily. I don’t think the Google employees be able to check all the videos every minutes and seconds. They can miss some or many videos. It’s not big issue.
    In this incident, the Google already removed the video from you tube and they provided the information of the up loader to the authorities. Actually, the Italian authorities should thank to them instead of suing them.
    I found the one thing that wrongly done by Google. They took nearly two months to remove the video. We do not know why they took so long to remove the video. Only Google will know the answer. Even they delay to remove; these 3 employees should not receive that kind of jail term.

     

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  130.  
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    Tsu Do Nym, Feb 24th, 2010 @ 10:01pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Idiots of all sizes

    Oh my God! You have a plate on your car. Your Gov't knows where you go and what you do. You live in a tyranny!
    Go remove the plate from your car now.


    Don't be ridiculous, nobody cares if they're tracked and surveilled!

    By the way, what's your name, address and plate number?

     

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  131.  
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    Amrinder Arora (profile), Feb 24th, 2010 @ 10:02pm

    Re: Re: Sovereignty

    Cameron - just a quick note on your "counterexample".

    There is a world of difference between a scorned boyfriend, and a scorned boyfriend who is committing perjury by forging documents and IDs. Force a person to even check a check box "I agree under the penalty of perjury that I did not lie on this form", and see the form responses drop by 99%, even if you were asking about blue and yellow M&Ms.

    Secondly, about your link to instructional videos on YouTube - yes, it is great. And if I make one on Costa Rica rain forests, I won't mind paying 5$ or 10$ entry fee to make it public to the world (which Google could perhaps use to check that it contains no X rated content). It isn't a question of conforming to all laws of all nations - simply a question of conforming to a 17 point inspection that is published, and is the reason for the entry fee.

     

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  132.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Feb 24th, 2010 @ 10:04pm

    Re: unfair decision

    They took nearly two months to remove the video. We do not know why they took so long to remove the video. Only Google will know the answer.

    Yes, we do. It was because they weren't notified for "nearly two months". After they were notified it was down in a matter of hours.

     

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  133.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Feb 24th, 2010 @ 10:24pm

    Re: There is a different perspective to it

    "We didn't do any beating, we only provided the batons and a nice comfy place to carry out the beating"

    Let me get this straight: You think that if someone assaults someone with some object, then whoever made that object as well as the owner of the property of wherever that crime took place should be criminally responsible for it.

    Wow. Just wow. And you even put that on your blog.

     

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  134.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Feb 25th, 2010 @ 12:14am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Speech

    Photographer Tami Silicio, working for an airline contractor in Kuwait, lost her job for giving a photo of caskets containing the remains of U.S. soldiers killed in Iraq
    She was not jailed or prosecuted, but this is not what I would define 'nothing'.

     

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  135.  
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    Daniel, Napoli (Italy), Feb 25th, 2010 @ 12:18am

    dignity

    the dignity of a person is more important.
    The same dignity that you seem deny when you do not like medical facilities for all persons.
    Freedom not stands for to make every thing.

     

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  136.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Feb 25th, 2010 @ 12:32am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Speech

    Photographer Tami Silicio, working for an airline contractor in Kuwait, lost her job for giving a photo of caskets containing the remains of U.S. soldiers killed in Iraq

    Coincidence.
    I'm sure the US gov't had nothing to do with that in any way, shape or form. Nope. Couldn't happen.

     

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  137.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Feb 25th, 2010 @ 12:52am

    It's amazing how big corporations can do something they know is dangerous just to cut costs, their actions can cost lives, and no one would face personal liability (ie: take the ford pinto among many many other examples).

    Yet Google does nothing wrong and they face jail time for no good reason. The whole corporate veil is a scam, only designed to protect evil corporations that intentionally conduct atrocities. But corporations that do nothing wrong are not protected.

     

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  138.  
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    Justin, Feb 25th, 2010 @ 3:11am

    Pull out

    Google should just immediately pull out of Italy. Apparently, nothing has changed much since Mussolini. Leave the little fascist hellhole to stew in its tyranny. Once the people have had enough, then maybe something will change.

     

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  139.  
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    A sad Italian, Feb 25th, 2010 @ 3:22am

    I'm italian and i feel so ashamed of mediocrity of some italians... :-(((

     

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  140.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Feb 25th, 2010 @ 3:45am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Idiots of all sizes

    I don't mind to be called dumb.
    That is not clear enough. I am sure that if that had been clearer the video would not have remained there for 2 months. And nobody would have called the Police. And we wouldn't be discussing this.

     

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  141.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Feb 25th, 2010 @ 4:15am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Speech

    Not clear to me if your answer was sarcastic. Anyway:

    http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/02/11/a-glimpse-of-the-iraq-war-that-cost-a-militar y-contractor-her-job/

    Her employer, Maytag Aircraft, fired her and her husband, David Landry, from their jobs in Kuwait, explaining that the U.S. military had expressed “very specific concerns’ about the incident. (the incident being the picture)

     

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  142.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Feb 25th, 2010 @ 7:22am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Speech

    Published the picture, lost the job.

    From NYT:
    Her employer, Maytag Aircraft, fired her and her husband, David Landry, from their jobs in Kuwait, explaining that the U.S. military had expressed “very specific concerns’ about the incident. (the incident being the picture)

    I really appreciate how you defend your principles and yes, nobody was prosecuted. Maybe she would have liked to be prosecuted and given a chance to defend herself instead of losing her job on the spot.

     

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  143.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Feb 25th, 2010 @ 10:18am

    Google should just pull out of Italy and not deal with their hair-brain legal antics.

     

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  144.  
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    Good Citizen, Feb 25th, 2010 @ 12:25pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Speech

    Her employer, Maytag Aircraft, fired her and her husband, David Landry, from their jobs in Kuwait, explaining that the U.S. military had expressed “very specific concerns’ about the incident. (the incident being the picture)

    Well, that's obviously just a lie because the US Constitution doesn't allow that kind of behavior. So it never happened. Period. And don't try to tell me otherwise because I'm a good citizen.

     

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  145.  
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    btr1701 (profile), Feb 25th, 2010 @ 1:15pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Speech

    > Published the picture, lost the job.

    This was the action of a private employer, not the government. Any private employer can fire you for any reason they like, so long as it's not based on membership in a protected class (race, religion, gender, etc.)

    No one ever said there are not consequences to doing something people don't like. Too many people these days seem to think "free speech" means "I can say whatever I want and suffer no negative consequences whatsoever". That's certainly not the case. If you work for a military contractor, it's not exactly wise to do something that's going to piss off the military if you want to keep your job.

    However, that's not censorship. Only the government can legally censor in this country, and as you noted, the government never came after her at all. Why? Because they couldn't. Not without running afoul of the 1st Amendment.

     

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  146.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Feb 25th, 2010 @ 1:59pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Speech

    This was the action of a private employer, not the government. Any private employer can fire you for any reason they like, so long as it's not based on membership in a protected class (race, religion, gender, etc.)

    The action of a government contractor acting on behalf of the government. That makes the government involved in my book.

     

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  147.  
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    Amrinder Arora (profile), Feb 25th, 2010 @ 2:01pm

    Re: Re: There is a different perspective to it

    Sorry, you missed the analogy. Let me provide an example.

    If I make a video of you (that I consider funny, but you consider offensive) against your wishes, and I post it. Then, the video does two things: (i) makes money for me (I know, its not a lot), and (ii) embarrasses/irks you.

    Then, you have to the right to sue (i) me - for making the video, if you can reach me, (ii) Google - for providing the platform for dissemination of the video and not listening to your complaints, if you can show that you made an attempt, or there is reasonable cause they should have acted on their own.

    If one misses the analogy, a natural question would be why not sue the camera maker (Sony) as well. But, that misses the point that for Sony, there was no mechanism to stop the usage of the camera once it was SOLD with the limited warranty to the user. The computer maker and the video editing software owner have similar "lack of power" defenses - the active video sharing service does not.

    Now, the situation isn't that different from a murder, in which case the gun makers are rarely sued for MAKING the gun, but the stores are sometimes for selling to a person who should not have been able to buy the gun. A simple Google search for "gun seller sued" shows up interesting cases.

    In short, (i) a continuing involvement in the process, (ii) a power to have been able to STOP the problem are the most distinguishing characteristics of who can be found culpable. Monetary exchange (however little) further reinforces the accomplice liability.

     

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  148.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Feb 25th, 2010 @ 2:11pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Speech

    Right. Like if the government hired an assassin to kill her that would be constitutional too because the government wouldn't be doing the actual killing directly. Yeah, I see how that works.

     

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  149.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Feb 25th, 2010 @ 2:24pm

    Re: Re: Re: There is a different perspective to it

    Sorry, you missed the analogy.

    No, I think I got it pretty spot on.

    Let me provide an example.

    You already did. Have you forgotten already (or maybe you're just trying to)? I think we got your point from the first one.

    providing the platform for dissemination of the video and not listening to your complaints

    So you're claiming that Google ignored complaints about this video? Wow (again). I guess that if you can't make your case legitimately then it's time to just start lying, huh? If you're going to do that then talking or listening to you is a waste of time.

     

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  150.  
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    Amrinder Arora (profile), Feb 25th, 2010 @ 5:12pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: There is a different perspective to it

    One thing is straightforward - I post under a real name, and you choose to remain anonymous. For that reason, all you do is say "wow!", while I actually try to articulate something.

    Either way, you didn't address any of the points I make. (Remember, just saying "wow" isn't really an argument).

     

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  151.  
    identicon
    The Queen of England, Feb 25th, 2010 @ 5:21pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: There is a different perspective to it

    "One thing is straightforward - I post under a real name"

    Ohh, so do I!
    Here's my website

     

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  152.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Feb 25th, 2010 @ 5:24pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: There is a different perspective to it

    Either way, you didn't address any of the points I make.

    Actually, I think pointing out that you're lying is a pretty good point to address. Of course, I can see how you would like to believe otherwise.

     

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  153.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Feb 25th, 2010 @ 7:12pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Speech

    The content of the article is explicit: somebody from the military establishment called the private company and told them to fire the person, which was done immediately.
    And for good measure they fired the husband too(?!)
    The government never came after her at all because a phone call is way simpler and faster.
    When you have high principles and you don't want to respect them usually you don't violate them openly, you find ways around them.
    But even if the phone call cannot be proven, the message is loud and clear for everybody to understand: when it comes to anything related to military operations the 1st Amendment simply does not apply. And this clearly not because of protecting the forces on the ground, which could find me sympathetic.
    And if the message had not been clear enough, the prohibition to bring cell phones with cameras in military prisons (Abu Grahib, anybody?) enforced by Rumsfeld made it even clearer.
    Nobody is perfect.

     

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  154.  
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    Mike Masnick (profile), Feb 25th, 2010 @ 7:13pm

    Re: Re: Re: There is a different perspective to it

    If I make a video of you (that I consider funny, but you consider offensive) against your wishes, and I post it. Then, the video does two things: (i) makes money for me (I know, its not a lot), and (ii) embarrasses/irks you.

    So?

    Then, you have to the right to sue (i) me - for making the video, if you can reach me, (ii) Google - for providing the platform for dissemination of the video and not listening to your complaints, if you can show that you made an attempt, or there is reasonable cause they should have acted on their own.

    Neither of those things are true. "Irking" someone is not illegal. Providing the platform for irking others is not illegal.

    Why do you think it should be?

    In short, (i) a continuing involvement in the process, (ii) a power to have been able to STOP the problem are the most distinguishing characteristics of who can be found culpable. Monetary exchange (however little) further reinforces the accomplice liability.

    As our safe harbor laws have made clear, this is not the case, nor should it be, in most situations. Why do you argue otherwise?

     

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  155.  
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    btr1701 (profile), Feb 25th, 2010 @ 7:33pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Speech

    > The action of a government contractor acting on behalf of the
    > government. That makes the government involved in my book.

    But it's not your book that counts. 1st Amendment law is defined by the Supreme Court's book.

     

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  156.  
    icon
    btr1701 (profile), Feb 25th, 2010 @ 7:36pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Speech

    > Like if the government hired an assassin to kill her that would
    > be constitutional too because the government wouldn't be doing
    > the actual killing directly. Yeah, I see how that works.

    WTF? I have no idea what the hell you're talking about. Murder is illegal no matter who does it. Murder certainly does not become constitutional because it's done by proxy.

    Analogies are apparently not your strong point.

     

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  157.  
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    btr1701 (profile), Feb 25th, 2010 @ 7:42pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Speech

    First you claim it's incontrovertible that the military demanded the firings, then you say "even if the phone call cannot be proven", which indicates that this entire sequence of events is nothing but speculation.

    > the message is loud and clear for everybody to understand: when
    > it comes to anything related to military operations the 1st Amendment
    > simply does not apply

    Well, the Supreme Court says otherwise [New York Times Co. v. United States, 403 U.S. 713 (1971)] and personally I think their message is louder and clearer. If that picture had been taken by someone who didn't work for an employer that wanted to suck up to the Pentagon (which is most of America), nothing would have happened to them. If the photographer had been some college kid who managed to get a good vantage point with a telephoto lens, the Pentagon couldn't have done jack to him for taking and/or publishing the photo.

     

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  158.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Feb 25th, 2010 @ 10:35pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Speech

    The source is NYT reporting a statement of the person who actually fired the lady and her husband.
    I leave it to you if the source is reliable or not.
    As for the Supreme Court, words (also written by the Supreme Court) are less effective than facts when it comes to sending messages.
    If your colleague is fired after shooting a photo maybe you would go to your principle and mention the jurisdiction, most people probably would prefer to keep their job.
    I state so because actually that is what happened in reality.
    BTW you would know your principle's answer: I didn't want to, I had to.
    Kids are (luckily) not offered jobs where really bad things happen so your case is really hypothetic.
    In real life, sources of information have been prohibited from reporting what really happens. Which does not come unexpected, does it?

     

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  159.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Feb 25th, 2010 @ 11:07pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Speech

    Murder certainly does not become constitutional because it's done by proxy.

    Correct. And that applies to other acts that would otherwise be unconstitutional as well (despite your apparent belief to the contrary). Imposing those acts by proxy (extraordinary rendition, contractors, etc.) does not make them constitutional.

    Analogies are apparently not your strong point.

    Recognizing the difference between an analogy and an example is apparently not yours.

     

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  160.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Feb 25th, 2010 @ 11:09pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Speech

    But it's not your book that counts.

    Nor yours.

    1st Amendment law is defined by the Supreme Court's book.

    I'd go even further and say that applies to all constitutional law, not just the 1st Amendment.

     

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  161.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Feb 25th, 2010 @ 11:44pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Speech

    Well, the Supreme Court says otherwise [New York Times Co. v. United States, 403 U.S. 713 (1971)]

    Yes, the "Pentagon Papers" case, as it is commonly known. And while I would say that it was a good ruling, it dealt with direct government actions. What we're dealing with here are actions by proxy.

    If that picture had been taken by someone who didn't work for an employer that wanted to suck up to the Pentagon (which is most of America), nothing would have happened to them.

    I know of very few employers who could not be paid to terminate an employee for the right price. Certainly a form of punishment by proxy. And in this case for exercising free speech and without trial.

     

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  162.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Feb 25th, 2010 @ 11:50pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Speech

    Only the government can legally censor in this country, and as you noted, the government never came after her at all. Why? Because they couldn't. Not without running afoul of the 1st Amendment.

    To the contrary, they did, by proxy.

     

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  163.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Feb 25th, 2010 @ 11:52pm

    Re: Re: Re: Idiots of all sizes

    When you register a domain you have to provide a real identity. Does that imply that the WWW is not a free place?
    Are you suggesting that if you register a domain you lose your civil rights? That after registering a domain all your online activity can be tracked down?
    If you buy something using a credit card you have to prove your identity to the online shop. Did that kill e-commerce or made you feel like you are not able to choose the goods or brand you like?
    Are you stating that if you buy a book at Amazon all your online activity can be tracked down? So Amazon is an open violation of the Constitution? VISA must be too, I guess.
    So take your government-approved e-commerce and shove it.

     

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  164.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Feb 26th, 2010 @ 12:01am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Speech

    First you claim it's incontrovertible that the military demanded the firings, then you say "even if the phone call cannot be proven", which indicates that this entire sequence of events is nothing but speculation.

    The New York Times reported that the employer explained that it was because the U.S. military had expressed "very specific concerns" about the incident. Perhaps the NYT is lying? Talk about speculation.

     

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  165.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Feb 26th, 2010 @ 4:04am

    A few words about the privacy law for which Google exec were condemned.
    In Italy you cannot publish a video or a picture of a kid without the parents' consent.
    This law adds bureaucracy that is probably unbearable to an american, but it also protects the children and children in Italy are sacred (and often spoiled).
    Google created an ecosystem where you can violate this law without being liable.
    To an american Italian laws could sound like a terrible limitation of free expression, but the law really was meant to protect the citizens. Another interesting aspect of this law is that you cannot keep a database of other people's data without their consent, so a positive aspect of this law is that Italians receive very seldom phone calls with commercial offers because you can oblige a company to remove your name and data from their database within 30 days, including your phone number.
    A few more bits of information to understand the italian culture:
    In the US freedom is more than a value, I would dare to say it is a religion while in Italy human dignity is considered a value more important than freedom. As every generalization, this statement cannot be precise, but if you know a bit both countries the cultural difference on this point is IMHO evident.
    More than 80% of Italians honestly trust the police (Carabinieri), so most italians don't see the Police as people helping the Gov't to control the citizens, but rather as people doing a difficult job and protecting the people.
    I don't know anybody, also far left, stating that in Italy you cannot freely and publicly express your dissent.
    Actually dissenting with the Gov't in some places is as common as talking about the weather (this was equally true of the previous Gov't when Berlusconi was not in charge).
    Media are an issue, especially most TV channels being too close to the Gov't in every sense, but that is, IMHO a different story.

     

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  166.  
    icon
    Mike Masnick (profile), Feb 26th, 2010 @ 4:11am

    Re:

    A few words about the privacy law for which Google exec were condemned.
    In Italy you cannot publish a video or a picture of a kid without the parents' consent.
    This law adds bureaucracy that is probably unbearable to an american, but it also protects the children and children in Italy are sacred (and often spoiled).


    Sure, but then place the liability on THOSE WHO UPLOADED THE VIDEO. Not the tool used.

    Google created an ecosystem where you can violate this law without being liable.

    No, the user should still be liable. Not Google.

    To an american Italian laws could sound like a terrible limitation of free expression, but the law really was meant to protect the citizens.

    Again, that's got nothing to do with it. The problem is that you blamed the wrong party.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  167.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Feb 26th, 2010 @ 4:47am

    Re: Re:

    All your comments are correct.
    The logical conclusion would be that in Italy Google should accept to oblige users to provide their identity before they can upload videos.
    Until then Google is indeed not breaking the law directly, but offering an ecosystem where respecting the law is not mandatory.
    It's as if in your town you had a special place, managed by foreigners, where educated adults could teach 15 years old boys the difference between Beaujolais and Bordeaux.
    Wine can be culture, and a place like that in Europe would be allowed and maybe recommended. Probably parents would take once in a while their kids there, obviously not exaggerating. I would.
    In the US the place would be shut down within days and if you could prove that the owner knew what was going on in there he would probably go to jail.

     

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  168.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Feb 26th, 2010 @ 5:43am

    Re: Re:

    I checked.
    The owner of the place would go to jail, also if he personally never served directly the wine.
    He would be HELD RESPONSIBLE because it's HIS PLACE and if in your place the laws are broken you go to jail.
    Actually the parents would go to jail if ever they let their kids age 15 even taste a little bit of wine at home during a dinner. Actually the parents would be sentenced exactly 6 months, just like Google's executives. Funny coincidence.

     

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  169.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Feb 26th, 2010 @ 5:59am

    Re: Re:

    A father shares with his son aged 20 a glass of Chianti during a pleasant dinner at home and he gets sentenced to 6 months of jail.
    Now that's Fascism ;-)

     

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  170.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Feb 26th, 2010 @ 9:49am

    Re: Re: Re:

    He would be HELD RESPONSIBLE because it's HIS PLACE and if in your place the laws are broken you go to jail.

    Even if you have no knowledge of it, huh?
    Wow. I bet there are a lot of people rotting in Italian prisons who did nothing wrong beyond owning property then too, huh?

    Somehow, I think you're full of it.

    Actually the parents would be sentenced exactly 6 months, just like Google's executives.

    No, not just like Google. The parents in your example were aware of the action and gave their permission. Google did neither and to claim they did is being untruthful or, as I said, full of it.

     

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  171.  
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    btr1701 (profile), Mar 1st, 2010 @ 8:21am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Speech

    > Correct. And that applies to other acts that
    > would otherwise be unconstitutional as well
    > despite your apparent belief to the contrary).

    You're comparing two completely different things: one is an illegal criminal act no matter who does it, the other act is a non-criminal question of constitutional law, which is either legal or illegal depending on the person or entity who performs it.

    Get back to me when you get that all sorted out and can hold an intelligent discussion on the topic.

     

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  172.  
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    sprearson81 (profile), Jun 8th, 2012 @ 7:09pm

    Astounding, truly mindboggling.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  173.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Dec 13th, 2012 @ 8:42am

    Re: dignity

    Dignity is not more important. You're an uneducated idiot.
    See how that works? You don't know me, I don't know you and yet, I just attempted to insult you. However, if you choose to ignore me and the insult, no harm done.

    Tell you what. Let sure the makers of the roads for allowing your corrupt government officials to go to the office and ruin your economy. Makes about as much sense as finding Google guilty.

    Seriously, grow up. Hold those accountable that did the action. Flailing about and looking for more to blame is childish.

    You want Italy to be part of the world? Then insist your government act like it.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]


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