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(Mis)Uses of Technology

by Mike Masnick

Fri, Sep 14th 2007 7:56pm


Filed Under:
big brother, cars, driving, gps, tax, tracking



Company Betting On GPS-Based Driving Tax

from the we-know-where-you've-been-driving dept

Back in 2003, the state of Oregon considered a driving tax, which would involve putting GPS devices on cars so the government could see how far you drove, and then tax you for it. The idea being that those who drive more should pay a larger portion of taxes to support the roads they drive on. Of course, for many, many people, the idea of the government keeping tabs on where you drive and how far you go seems rather Big Brotherish -- and those people note that you can accomplish pretty much the same thing (making heavy drivers pay more taxes) simply by taxing gasoline. Soon afterwards, the head of California's DMV suggested that a similar taxing and tracking plan made sense. Over in the UK, they've looked at similar proposals as well. It certainly seems a bit early to bet on such a concept as the next big thing, but that apparently hasn't stopped one company from building a device for exactly this purpose and showing it off at a recent conference. The company is smart in positioning it less as a device for tracking drivers and more as a way of "creating toll roads out of every road." The News.com article then goes on to rail against the very idea of toll roads -- but perhaps that's because they're quite rare here in northern California. In other parts of the country, they're a lot more common. Rather than worrying about the toll road aspect, it seems like the idea of government agencies having immediate access to information about where you drove at what time is a lot more troublesome.
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  • identicon
    Lee, 14 Sep 2007 @ 8:12pm

    Tracking the wrong people

    I would feel better with tracking devices attached to every politician.

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  • identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 14 Sep 2007 @ 8:28pm

    Don't they essentially do this with gas tax?

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    • identicon
      Anonymous Coward, 14 Sep 2007 @ 8:47pm

      Re:

      Yes, but this would be a great way to punish those pesky hybrid drivers as well. They'd essentially have the same road fees as a Hummer H1 weighing 6 times as much and putting much more stress on the roads.

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      • identicon
        GoblinJuice, 14 Sep 2007 @ 8:52pm

        Re: Re:

        Yeah, see, that's the problem.

        Don't understand? Lemme 'splain: hybrid whores and plugin punks don't use as much - or, in the case of plugins, any - gas at all. Which means the guv'ment isn't getting the taxes from the gas.

        Which is bad.

        Understand, now? =)

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      • identicon
        Anonymous Coward, 14 Sep 2007 @ 9:22pm

        Re: Re:

        Yeah, if you're driving a car with good gas milage, it's like stealing from the government. And by government I mean the oil companies. Because they're the ones who really need the money.

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  • identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 14 Sep 2007 @ 10:14pm

    Anyone heard of Ez-Pass?

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  • identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 14 Sep 2007 @ 10:15pm

    Anyone heard of Ez-Pass?

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  • identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 14 Sep 2007 @ 10:16pm

    You can quite easily set a GPS device to only save the distance information and not any positional information. It would just be a GPS based odometer.

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    • identicon
      Oliver Wendell Jones, 14 Sep 2007 @ 10:41pm

      Re:

      It would just be a GPS based odometer.

      Then why not just use an odometer? If mileage is all the government really wants to track, why not just develop an 'unhackable' (or extremely difficult to hack) odometer that can be easily added to a car - why does it have to be a location based tracker *and* an odometer?

      The other big issue is that such a device would only allow the government to collect road-use taxes on state residents - people that come to visit, or 18-wheelers that don't do a lot of business in Oregon won't have to pay road-use as their vehicles won't be equipped with the necessary tracking equipment - if the tax was collected at the gas pump (as previously suggested) or via toll booths, then the government can collect a "fair" amount from everyone.

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    • identicon
      Anonymous Coward, 15 Sep 2007 @ 12:32am

      Re:

      You can quite easily set a GPS device to only save the distance information and not any positional information. It would just be a GPS based odometer.
      Unfortunately, that's not what they want to do.

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    • identicon
      S.E.B., 15 Sep 2007 @ 2:22pm

      Re:

      You really think it would just be a "GPS based odometer"?? Do you also believe the victims of this mandatory device would have control of it? If this passes, the device will be embedded somewhere unreachable within the car, it will not, by any means, have a control panel of any sort, and it definitely will not be tied in to the car's original GPS system or screen.
      Therefore, whether or not the government admits to it, they will be tracking everyone's every move; logging it in some database to call upon for any circumstance they deem necessary.
      This happens, they'll know every move you make, no matter what they say theyre using the data for.

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  • identicon
    CharlieHorse, 14 Sep 2007 @ 10:52pm

    sure ...

    "...it would just be a GPS based odometer."

    RIIIIIIGGGGGGGHHHHTTT!

    I can already hear some pol repeating exactly that line ... "no, really, it's JUST a GPS odometer ... TRUST ME ! "

    GoblinJuice nailed it, by the way ... 'nuff said.

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    • identicon
      John Duncan Yoyo, 15 Sep 2007 @ 6:28am

      Re: sure ...

      It is camel nose into the tent. The camel being lawyers who have already figured out that they can use Easy Pass to track their adversaries clients when they bring law suits.

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  • identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 15 Sep 2007 @ 12:32am

    Maybe they could tie it in with the GPS tracking in cell phones. That way, citizens can save on a dicounted "we know where you are/travel tax" deal.

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  • identicon
    Haywood, 15 Sep 2007 @ 5:30am

    So, how long before Ebayers offer workarounds

    A little GPS shaped tinfoil hat perhaps.

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  • identicon
    shmengie, 15 Sep 2007 @ 7:12am

    can't say for sure which, but i know that some states base your yearly registration fees on the weight of your vehicle. the rationale being that the heavier your car, the more wear and tear you put on the road. i've always liked that idea.

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    • identicon
      Anonymous Coward, 15 Sep 2007 @ 8:22am

      Re:

      can't say for sure which, but i know that some states base your yearly registration fees on the weight of your vehicle. the rationale being that the heavier your car, the more wear and tear you put on the road. i've always liked that idea.

      My state does that, but it's not apportioned fairly. A bit of interesting information I came across in my engineering classes was that typically a fully loaded 18 wheeler does the same amount of damage to the roadway as about 4000 automobiles. I saw a sticker on one of those trucks the other day announcing that it paid about $4000/year in road use taxes. Based on that then, my fair share of taxes for my car should only be about $1/year. Instead, I'm charged about 100 times that amount.

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  • identicon
    Barrenwaste, 15 Sep 2007 @ 7:35am

    Another tax on roads? Yup, I can see how that's needed, since they make such efficient use of the money generated in the name of our roads already. A couple of weeks ago I drove from Michigan to Florida....at times it took me four hours to go four miles. Construction sites were everywhere, and to make matters so much better, though more than half the roads were tore up, only about a quarter of the construction sites had any activity when I blew by at such amazing speeds. On a bright sunny weekday about one out of four sites were being worked on. Hell, I have to go through a construction site on my way to work everyday, a site that is rarely actually being worked on, yet has been botteling traffic since just after the snow melted.....now that's efficient! Personally, I think that they are leaving it unfinished and unworked on purpose. That way they can generate even more revenue by setting cops behind a nearby embankment to catch the frustrated motorists in the act of speeding through empty construction sites. They had three pulled over the other day when I came to work, all within about half a mile of the site......

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    • identicon
      Anonymous Coward, 15 Sep 2007 @ 8:30am

      Re:

      I think that they are leaving it unfinished and unworked on purpose. That way they can generate even more revenue by setting cops behind a nearby embankment to catch the frustrated motorists in the act of speeding through empty construction sites.
      I think sometimes the contractors use roadway construction/repair contracts as filler. They only send the crews and equipment out to actually work on them when they don't have anything better paying to do at that moment. Sort of a "spare time" kind of thing.

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  • identicon
    Party Time, 15 Sep 2007 @ 7:48am

    taxes

    They tax the gasoline and diesel fuel. They tax the electricity. They tax the tires. They tax the food. They tax the house. They tax just about everything. Remember - the government has NO money of its own. They have OUR money that they have collected as taxes and the money they print (which makes our money worth less - a hidden tax). Do you want more for your tax dollars? Throw a party! They did it in Boston a couple hundred years ago and it helped, for a while. Throw another one and stop some of the government arrogance, at least for a while, again. Remind the bums who REALLY owns the money.

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  • identicon
    Disgusted, 15 Sep 2007 @ 9:39am

    Lets see, if you took the oil company lobby influence, and the insurance company/IP lawyers out of the US government what would remain?

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  • identicon
    nomo, 15 Sep 2007 @ 11:48am

    Some thoughts

    Tax is over 51 cents a gallon in California. Lincoln collected taxes from the working folks to pay for the civil war. The excuse was to pay for roads and transportation. Now we are taxed for everything. I think if a bunch of people try and find a way to track us, its a violation of our rights. How far will the American public be pushed to they decide its war?

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  • identicon
    Joel Coehoorn, 15 Sep 2007 @ 1:52pm

    So out-of-state drivers get free passes?

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  • identicon
    garry king, 15 Sep 2007 @ 3:25pm

    They are already taxing the amount of driving you

    Like every other state in the union, they have a gas tax, and there is a federal gas tax as well. The last time I checked, no no where near the total tax collected was spent on roads in any of the 50 states.

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  • identicon
    Chad H, 15 Sep 2007 @ 4:32pm

    Just jam the signal...

    With a little time and skills, you could build this gps jammer and they couldn't track crap. If they ask why your car hasn't moved, just tell them you ride your bike like a good little eco warrior. :)

    GPS Jammer instructions:
    http://www.teamdroid.com/archives/2007/09/07/diy-gps-jammer/

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  • identicon
    RandomThoughts, 15 Sep 2007 @ 4:39pm

    One application that it could be used for is congestion payments. Bloomberg in NYC wants to charge cars more for driving in certain areas of NYC during rush hour. I could understand that attempt, but I don't see GPS data to the government any time soon. If the government or anyone else collects that data, it can be introduced in a court of law.

    A guy in Jersey was going through a divorce and his soon to be ex-wife used EZPass records to prove he was having an affair.

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  • identicon
    bradley stewart, 15 Sep 2007 @ 7:06pm

    I THINK I WILL BUY

    AN ABRAMS TANK. NOT ONLY BECAUSE I WANT TO BE THE FIRST ON MY BLOCK TO BE THE LAST ON MY BLOCK, BUT WE HAVE ENTIRELY TOO MUCH GASOLINE IN THE WORLD. I THINK THE CAFEE STANDARD SHOULD BE EIGHT GALLONS TO THE MILE. I JUST WANT TO DO MY PART TO HELP.

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  • identicon
    DRM Suxx, 15 Sep 2007 @ 8:05pm

    Unfairly taxes drivers only..

    This GPS tax is not equitable. The GOVT should put GPS tracker chips in our skulls and that way those of us who walk or ride bikes can pay our fair share of the tax to maintain roads and sidewalks. It's really the only fair way to do it. I am sure that we can trust them to not misuse the data about where we go and who we meet with. They are our government after all and they have our best interests at heart.

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  • identicon
    Barrenwaste, 15 Sep 2007 @ 10:11pm

    You guys are to late for the big brother aspect.

    Um....you guys are a bit late on the draw for the privacy issue. Vehicles that have GPS in them are already trackable by the Gov. Not only that, but they don't need GPS to follow you on the highways. Haven't for years. Satellites, creditcards, roadside cameras, highway patrols, and air patrols. If they want to find you, they will. Go online and you can find airial photos showing your house with such resolution that they can tell if you've been mowing your lawn lately. They can also tell how much use any given road is given by tracking fuel sales, roadside assistance, and by using electronic eyes to count vehicles and log type. This GPS really won't change anything in that regard.

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  • identicon
    Boris Jacobsen, 16 Sep 2007 @ 12:38am

    Re: damage to roads

    I seem to recall the damage to roads is proportional to the fourth power of the weight of the vehicle. So a truck doing 4000 times the damage of a car sounds about right if the truck is about 8 times the weight of the car (8 ^ 4 = 4096)

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  • identicon
    Bob, 16 Sep 2007 @ 4:24am

    I gotta call BS

    This cant have anything to do with them wanting to tax a person for the distance they drove. If they wanted to simply do that, they would make everyone turn in their odometer reading when they register or re-register their cars every year. This has everything to do with Big Brother watching where you go.

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  • identicon
    Ed C., 16 Sep 2007 @ 5:17am

    A GPS odometer? Ya right. We really do live in an idiocracy! I'm sure we all wish that technophobes politicians would "get with it", but if this is the stuff we are going to get when they do, it would be best if they clawed back under their rock.

    And how about those that do a lot of driving out of state? You'd be paying your state to drive on some other state's roads! Face it, the government keeps trying to create new taxes to cover up the fact that their inefficient spending has already used up their money for the next 2-3 years and they're broke already. Besides, taxes to the government is like a junkie looking for a new fix. The old doesn't get it anymore, so they're alway on the look out for something new!

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  • identicon
    Forexmillionaire.com, 16 Sep 2007 @ 5:26am

    Company Betting On GPS-Based Driving Tax

    I am planning to create my own country and when it is firmly established, I am going to tax my citizens on everything including the Oxygen they breathe. I believe that is really where the real gold mine is!

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  • identicon
    driveguy, 16 Sep 2007 @ 5:27am

    txtag tolls

    In the state of Tx, construction sites are only worked till they cause slowdowns and congestion. The workers are then pulled away to work on toll roads which are being jammed up and down all of our orifices because Rick Perry and all his buds feel the need to tax us a second time for roads we have already paid for, or don't need. When the toll stuff is finished, workers are allowed to partially finish what was started and not finished. BTW, in order for the toll roads to be used when finished, the existing roadways must be made more inconvenient to use than before.(traffic lights,etc.)

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  • identicon
    ImagineCasting.net, 16 Sep 2007 @ 8:23am

    This idea doesn't just suck, it swallows.

    If they sincerely wanted to justify such a tax, they don't need GPS to tell how far you've driven. All they need to do is check the odometer reading when you are forced to re-register the vehicle each year. Now that that hole is punched into their argument, it really is just big brother wanting to know your every move.

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  • identicon
    me, 16 Sep 2007 @ 11:06am

    Like Barrenwaste said, if the government wants to watch you they will. The real reason nobody wants GPS tracking is because then you couldn't speed. And a radar detector wouldn't help a bit.

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  • identicon
    jb, 16 Sep 2007 @ 12:53pm

    Like they can really enforce this...

    Along with the rest of the stupid laws they cannot enforce. They can't even stop the illegal immigrants crossing the border, I'm sure we'll all run out and get one soon as the law is passed.

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  • identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 16 Sep 2007 @ 1:28pm

    re: Me

    And if you speed, you might hit the children. We got to protect our children!

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  • identicon
    Dean, 16 Sep 2007 @ 1:30pm

    The other method

    I think the government instead of trying to figure out how much we drive and tear up the roads, should put all there little scientists to work on floating car or something like that so we don't even have to touch the darn road! :)

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    • identicon
      Anonymous Coward, 16 Sep 2007 @ 2:13pm

      Re: The other method

      The government will still come up with some way to tax the pathways our flying cars will follow.

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  • identicon
    Angery Citizen, 16 Sep 2007 @ 1:47pm

    So let me get this straight. Not only will I have to pay for the outrageous prices on gas as it is and with them climbing even higher shelling out more money(part of which is tax money) AND having to pay the money for maintaining my vehicle and keeping it running but I would have to pay just because I DRIVE somewhere?!?!?! Anything like that comes along and I say to hell with driving. The government pulls enough crap as it is with all these bull**** taxes they already have out so lets give them more money? Ummm how about no! IF they are going to do this they should only put it on the Hummers and SUVs because they wear out the road AND pump pollution into the air. The Hybrids should not be taxed period because they don't damage the road or the environment(compared to the SUV/Hummer anyways)

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    • identicon
      Pi, 21 Sep 2007 @ 4:08pm

      Re:

      "Not only will I have to pay for the outrageous prices on gas as it is..."

      Hahahahahahahahahahaha, I'm assuming you've never been to Europe.

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  • identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 16 Sep 2007 @ 2:21pm

    another global warming tax tactic

    Just another way for the global warming alarmist politician to tax us. Just imagine you get a tax bill monthly for the amount of "carbon" you create.

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  • identicon
    Tim, 16 Sep 2007 @ 2:36pm

    They already do this... every time you fill up your tank with gas.

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  • identicon
    mantle, 16 Sep 2007 @ 2:43pm

    Odometer's wouldn't help. If the purpose is to tax you for driving x miles on the state roads, what happens, if i work in the neighboring state and most of my driving is done out of state? It doesn't seem fair that I'm being taxed for banging some else's asphalt? We (Virginian's) are still trying to figure out the new law which SEVERELY punishes it's citizens, but gives slap on the wrist for similar offenses for drivers outside the state. So, legislators are looking for ways shore up their revenue , along the way they punish the innocent and poor instead of facing the big companies and special interest. The obvious reason for this is because the politicians are counting on the reliable fact that VOTERs don't pay attention to any of this!!

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  • identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 16 Sep 2007 @ 2:53pm

    Wait.....they can't do this. We already pay a yearly tax to the states for road use since having a car is considered a luxury the already put a tax on that so wouldn't this be double taxing which is illegal?

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  • icon
    boomhauer (profile), 16 Sep 2007 @ 3:08pm

    exactly

    yep this cant just be an odometer setup, as i would assume this will charge you like tollroads. and tollroads are at different rates. so it has to be able to determine which road you are on. the varying rates of course are a method to try to de-congest areas- charge more in congested areas to influence drivers to go another cheaper route.

    big money maker + big brother watching your every move. brilliant!

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  • identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 16 Sep 2007 @ 4:17pm

    Pick one side or the other

    Lets argue about the tax, other than the reality, we don't we need to be taxed anymore do we?

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  • identicon
    charlie potatoes, 16 Sep 2007 @ 5:50pm

    the taxman

    If you try to sit I'll tax your seat, try to walk, I'll tax your feet, try to drive, I'll tax the street...Yeah, I'm the Taxman....George Harrison we fought a revolution to prove we could tax ourselves... we have become quite proficient...

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  • identicon
    TD, 16 Sep 2007 @ 9:13pm

    Ha - gas tax was suppose to be for "road repair" as well. Politicians stole that money countless times to pay for other projects. Even when they passed laws to force themselves to use the money for roads, it still didn't happen. Why do they need a new way to tax when they'll just wast that money as well?

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  • identicon
    edward, 16 Sep 2007 @ 9:25pm

    George Soros Versus Warren Buffet

    Both of them are elites of elites in investment sector, yet they are quite different.

    Wealth creation: Warren Buffet by direct long-term investing on other public companies through its holding company named Berkshire Hathaway, which main business lies in insurance; while George Soros by hedge fund management
    Amount of assets: Warren Buffet > George Soros

    Impacts to global economy: George Soros > Warren Buffet, especially during late 1990s’ Asia financial crisis

    Influence to the society: George Soros > Warren Buffet, George Soros is much more philosophical than Warren Buffet, well-known books include The Alchemy of Finance, Soros on Soros: Staying Ahead of the Curve, George Soros on Globalization and The Age of Fallibility: Consequences of the War on Terror (the latest release). George Soros is more open on disclosing how he thinks and acts on investing. Warren Buffet has not published anything so far, except his annual letters to the shareholders of his holding
    company

    Please note Jim Rogers was George Soros’s partner during the early years of Quantum Fund (was originally named Double Eagle Fund, and then renamed Soros Fund), during the interview, published in Soros on Soros, Soros acknowledged on Jim Rogers’ contribution to Quantum Fund in those days such as on identifying the rising potential of defense sector, and he added one remark, all of investment decisions was made by him, while Jim Rogers conducted all of research and analysis. They respected with each other very much. Jim Rogers was much more cynical towards Wall Street mainstream than that of Soros.

    Of course, Jim still is, as an vivid proof, you may check his 2 rounds interviews with our Frontier Visionary Interview at http://www.hwswworld.com/interview.php, they are al great minds, all very philosophical, ascending from technological and scientifical


    Frontier Blog - search but not REsearch
    http://www.hwswworld.com/wp

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  • identicon
    EH, 17 Sep 2007 @ 4:06am

    Toll roads

    "...but perhaps that's because they're quite rare here in northern California. In other parts of the country, they're a lot more common."

    Doesn't mean we like them any more than anyone else does. Normal toll roads are horrible traffic-inducing polluting nightmares. I have a hard time thinking of a less efficient way of collecting revenue than a toll road.

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  • identicon
    Overcast, 17 Sep 2007 @ 6:22am

    With ideas like this - http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/07252/815920-85.stm

    They are getting preemptive, I guess.

    I think they have plenty enough tax money coming in now. The problem isn't the availability of incoming money, it's how it's spent once it's in the hands of incompetent politicians.

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  • identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 17 Sep 2007 @ 6:46am

    If you really wanna make a flat tax to pay for roads and whatnot, why not just tax you based on how many vehicles you own? Every vehicle you own is registered with the government in some fashion. How about just requiring an annual or bi-annual tax based on the number of vehicles registered in your name at the time? Then it won't matter how much you're using or not using the roads or what type of fuel you're using. Everybody pays the same. Sure, some will see that as unfair, but you can find something "unfair" with any solution. I hate to say this, but I am actually in support of an additional gas tax right now, if it means better roads. I am sick and tired of having nothing but crappy roads to drive on that are being held together with nothing but duct tape and chewing gum.

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  • identicon
    Lewis Salem, 17 Sep 2007 @ 6:48am

    Good luck guys!

    Yet another regressive tax on the middle class. Not even going into the privacy concerns, this hurts people who can't afford to live close to their work and have to drive in as there is no public transportation available.

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  • identicon
    Gene, 17 Sep 2007 @ 6:59am

    this tax isn't about money

    As many have already pointed out, the government has WAY more money than brains.

    This tax as with most of the others, is just another experiment to tax "bad behavior" in an attempting to curtail or/and control it.

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  • identicon
    SkippyTMut, 17 Sep 2007 @ 7:06am

    Leave Me The F*^k Alone!

    With all of the problems in the world right now why is the government still so hell bent on tracking the middle class around anyway? Here's a better suggestion. Put a GPS tracker on cars owned and operated by government officials. Then make all the data public so we can start keeping an eye on those that we've elected to represent us! Maybe then we won't have to find out a month later that a senator was trying to get head in the bathroom of an airport...We would have already seen him go to gay bath house the week before!

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  • identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 17 Sep 2007 @ 8:53am

    You all have it wrong

    No, no ,no ,no, NO! The GPS devices are for tracking terrorists! Don't any of you see that? The government is asking for these devices for the security of our nation, our children, our children's children. Do you want to see your children dies at the hands of terrorists? *sheesh*

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  • identicon
    James, 31 Jul 2008 @ 10:58am

    More Big Brother and the answer to it!!!!!

    This is nothing more hten tracking people. There are easier and cheaper ways of doing this as already stated by many others. What we need to do now is attack back!!! When stuff like this comes out email them and tell everyone else you know and cares .02 to email and make tons of noise. Tell them how you feel and that your not useing there service etc. If you get enough people and or organizations fighting this they wont follow threw. It works for PETA. Use there tactics of bugging the corp. Remember the Revolution that fought for this once great country was won by 5-10%. You dont need a majority to win anything. There is going to be a new revolution soon im sure.

    [ reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • identicon
    James, 31 Jul 2008 @ 10:58am

    More Big Brother and the answer to it!!!!!

    This is nothing more hten tracking people. There are easier and cheaper ways of doing this as already stated by many others. What we need to do now is attack back!!! When stuff like this comes out email them and tell everyone else you know and cares .02 to email and make tons of noise. Tell them how you feel and that your not useing there service etc. If you get enough people and or organizations fighting this they wont follow threw. It works for PETA. Use there tactics of bugging the corp. Remember the Revolution that fought for this once great country was won by 5-10%. You dont need a majority to win anything. There is going to be a new revolution soon im sure.

    [ reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]


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