Bleeding Edge

by Joseph Weisenthal

Excuse Me, Do You Take Project Entropia Dollars?

from the charge-it-to-the-game dept

If you just had a long day of work inside a MMORPG, now there's a debit card for you. The creators of Project Entropia are now offering a card that can be used at any ATM to instantly convert the game's currency into actual cash. In the past, if a user wanted to convert in-game assets into cash they needed to sell their wares or gold pieces online (eBay typically). The tighter integration between the real-world financial system and that of virtual worlds expands their potential role as economic laboratories. For example, in this scheme Project Entropia converts PEDs (Project Entropia Dollars) to US dollars at a rate of ten to one. But in the real world, fixed exchange rates are hard to sustain (ask China about that). It'll be interesting to see if they ever need to move to a floating exchange rate, which naturally occurs in other games when transactions occur over third party channels. The games could also help us study free banking, a system whereby banks print up their own currency in the absence of a centralized issuing authority. Banks (and in this case the various virtual worlds) have a strong incentive to maintain the strength of their currency by not printing too much of it. Already some companies like to recruit game players, how long will it be before Wall St. starts looking to gamers to find currency specialists.

Reader Comments (rss)

(Flattened / Threaded)

  1. identicon
    TriZz, May 2nd, 2006 @ 9:57am

    I QUIT!!

    ...I'm quitting my job, tomorrow.

    I hope this game doesn't suck.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  2. identicon
    garfalk, May 2nd, 2006 @ 10:17am

    Re: I QUIT!!

    i agree. a dime for every PED. wow. thats easy is it to make money....

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  3. identicon
    DreadedOne509, May 2nd, 2006 @ 10:32am


    It will only be a matter of time before some script kiddy with even more free time on his or her hands hacks the game code and tries to cash in on 10,000,000,000 PED's (or more) and this house of cards will come crashing down.

    Add to the above scenario the bank fees for the ATM...

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  4. identicon
    CU_rob, May 2nd, 2006 @ 11:35am

    how long until the IRS trys to tax this .... hmmm.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  5. identicon
    Josh, May 2nd, 2006 @ 11:45am

    The only problem is in order to start actually MAKING money from this game... you have to invest money into it first. Its not like you can go into the game, and start making money with the snap of your fingers. Besides the people of this game really suck and getting started on your own with no money to begin with is impossible unless you have LOADS of free-time. Good luck though!

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  6. identicon
    David T, May 2nd, 2006 @ 11:59am

    Not sure this really studies free banking

    I'm not convinced that this studies free banking -- the only way that consumers get to use their PEDs is to convert them to USD at a fixed rate. It's no different than casino chips -- you convert in and out of casino chips at a fixed rate (eg, $100 for black chips, etc) becasue the casino chips have no real-world value.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  7. identicon
    Patrick Mullen, May 2nd, 2006 @ 12:07pm

    Re: Not sure this really studies free banking

    Except the fact that $100 for black chips actually equal $100. They have all kinds of colors. The value of the chip is tied to the value of the dollar.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  8. identicon
    Hairball, May 2nd, 2006 @ 12:23pm

    Explain something to me

    While i read the article, I was a bit confused on how the game makers (the people that distribute money through ATMs) actually get this money to distribute. Do you have to pay real life cash to repair your weapons and whatnot? is that what i read? If that's the case, I'd rather ebay my level 60s on WoW and sell my gold :-/

    At least that way, there's no need for capital.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  9. identicon
    Darren H, May 2nd, 2006 @ 12:29pm

    Josh is right

    Project Entropia is intentionally set up to be a cash sink. In order to make money in the game, you have to invest heavily to get to a level that you can make any money back from the game. I'd say, counting time invested in building a character to acceptable levels, you would be lucky to break even in the long run.

    It used to be fairly easy to get started with little to no cash being invested, but they changed several things that pretty much ensured you had to invest your cash first. In short, they showed their greedy side, and it was ugly. This was what really turned me off to the game, and I haven't played it since.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  10. identicon
    Chris, May 2nd, 2006 @ 12:36pm

    worth mentioning

    Another game thats been converting virtual money for US currency is Linden Lab's Second Life. There have been interviews and articles of people making more money from this game than from their previous jobs. Have also been told that there was a group (either a college or private investment firm, can't remember) who got a grant to reserach a potential currency market. They would "bank" your online currecny, cash it into real US$, then invest it. Any gains or losses were equaly shared with all investors. The potential and interest are there, so it should be interesting to see what may evolve.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  11. identicon
    Chris, May 2nd, 2006 @ 12:37pm

    working url

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  12. identicon
    Ronald M., May 2nd, 2006 @ 12:39pm

    Second Life

    The game by Linden Labs, "Second Life" also has a currency called "Lindens". This currency can be traded on the Lindex exchange for real dollars for about 300L to $1. In this world, users will design items or services and then trade the LDOLLARS for Real World dollars. There are several designers that are making big money at it. Also you can buy and sell virtual land to make a profit. This game isn't easy to make money in, you usually have to be very creative and provide something that isn't supplied elsewhere in the game. If you can script, you own the writes to the script an is able to sell the scripted items to make money. The scripting language is built into the game and can be easily learn by novice people, which makes it difficult to make something that others haven't already thought of. You can often find me in the game under the name "Viper Ritter", see you there.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  13. identicon
    |333173|3|_||3, May 2nd, 2006 @ 7:56pm

    Private banks printing own currency

    during the early 19th century it was common practice for banks to print thier own notes, with a value of a cetain amount. These note were not legal tender, but were instead basically a cheque made out to cash, which could be fixed to gold/silver/etc (hence the fact that Sterling notes carry the message "I promise to pay the bearer, on demand, the sum of ___ pounds", signed by the Governor of the Bank of England.) the idea of organisation creatring thier own currency seems to be a revival of this idea.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  14. identicon
    Shifty, May 14th, 2006 @ 12:01pm

    Explanations for All

    Alright, upon stumbling across this thread, and as a EU player, I thought I would clarify a few things here...

    1) You can make money in the game without investing. There are several jobs that the average n00b can do to earn PED. I forsee serious disaster, as outlined below.

    2) Many people do invest, which keeps the company running. Just like the SIMs, you want more options, you pay more money. In this game, however, you can use this money to make more, and transfer it back to yourself as profit.

    3) The disaster is that many people are becoming irate over MindArk's apparent lack of concern for game glitches and variable settings. If too many people pull PEDs and run at one time, MindArk will be filing for bankruptcy.

    4) My plan is to play for a year or so, acquiring skills in all forms of work, then invest. You might ask why, and here's your answer: MindArk makes most of its money from n00bs who waste their investment on repairs, and waste PEDs on paying too much for items on the street and in auctions. Therefor, my thought on the game is that your best idea is to make it on your own for a year or so, then invest when you know what you're doing.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  15. identicon
    The Big P, Jun 14th, 2006 @ 5:42pm

    Im a EU Noob

    I just started playing EU, about a week ago, Its a fun game. Rather complicated, but the aspect of maken money on it is appealing. Ive been on it a week invest 60+ hours, and i am just now getting enough skills that i dont die, i actually get a bit of pay off for my efforts. haven made dime one off it but i have paid dime one into it either

    So basicly, if you have loads and loads of time, and dont mind doing the exact same thing over and over and oevr again this game is so for you :P

    2 things that bug me the most:

    you cant rotate left and right, you use the mouse to run and turn and asdw to move in directions, GIMME a ROT to right and Rot to left geeez


    You can attack or do anything at the beginning except sweat mosnters, so basicly your a baby with a cup around these beasts.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  16. identicon
    Nob, Oct 8th, 2006 @ 1:32pm

    Re: Im a EU Noob

    Dude learn how to fucking type, if u cant then dont post comments.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  17. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Oct 18th, 2006 @ 7:57pm

    Re: Explanations for All

    I was wondering if anyone who has played entropia, if they could help me along a bit by telling me where to find
    the six jobs thatyou're talking about?

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  18. identicon
    Isaac V., Jan 8th, 2007 @ 8:45am

    Re: Josh is right

    Isn't everything a cash sink these days? It would be different if Entropia was some sort of a charity, however, they're a business. Any business is out to make money. Entropia happens to make most of its money off people who put in ten bucks or so, realize they aren't going to become millionaires the first day, and then quit out of frustration. I've been playing Entropia for a while now, and I'm still not raking in the dough. Sometimes you just have to enjoy a game for what the game is. Besides, if you put in 15 dollars every month (just take your WoW subscription money) and put that into Entropia, you'd probably never need to worry about running out of money. Anyone who drops 15 dollars a month into WoW shouldn't have a problem with not making money in Entropia.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  19. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Jan 9th, 2007 @ 7:11am


    sir you are an idiot, I've palyed for about a week and made a little cash, it does take some work but it's not too hard, no initial investment required, just play it as a game, that's all. take the money out when you get bored..

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  20. identicon
    XXXX, Jan 27th, 2007 @ 4:31am

    This game, you can make money, its a casino, u make money outa luck, but the game developers always have the upper hand, but with the casino theres always alittle bit of skill, like in black jack choosing 2 go on ect....

    Let me tell you, its made for you to lose, but have a good time.. ull lose in the long run no doubt, they wont give you free money + pay for there servers and developers....

    Games are made to be fun, and thats what you do, i know it anit fun losing money...

    oh heres a tip, if u want to play, this isnt a game u sit for 10 hours , ull waste alot of money doing that....

    u have a better chance if u do 1 hour to 2 hours a day, and if ur making money...

    1. ur lucky

    2. ur doing the right thing

    3. both 1 and 2....

    if ur making money in the long run, keep doing the same thing, its because ur playing the game right, but everytime u gain a dollar, many people are losing dollars ... plus ur paying for the developers/servers..

    sorry for repeating my self but, to make money on this game its worst then the casino :S, they suck more money outa you...

    Play for Fun, not to make money...

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  21. identicon
    XXXX, Jan 27th, 2007 @ 4:42am

    i cant help talking about it but...

    They Obviously have a system, where they ENSURE they do NOT lose money, they give the money others lost to you and keep a certain % of all money..

    EG of a system

    everytime u shoot, u waste X cents, and u repair ur stuff for Ycents

    20% of the X cents, goes into there pocket

    80% of the X cents goes into a Pool, where they will distribute the money by a game of chance. and they keep ur Ycents....

    EG of skill in the game is

    Hunting = Accuracy, Maybe the type of monster u hunt, if the system pool is only for that monster, say a noob being hunting all day and got nothing, the item pool for that monster might be high and u go and rake in the goodies, if it works like that...

    if its like a Slot machine, then only skill is accuracy...

    Mining, in the game there are mining region, when people mine then they dispear and maybe have a respawn time, where it respawns within a region, maybe not a timer but a system where X dollars are lost in the region it will create a Node..

    its all systems.. to ensure they are not also gambling there money :) because im pretty sure at start they did not have the money 2 gamble away.. maybe they do now.. btw systems might change every patch.. slighly or maybe not

    remmber with Probablity the more u flip the coin, closer it will get to being Even ammounts of heads, and tails.... .. Good luck for those who wanta make money !! ull NEED IT

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  22. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, May 17th, 2007 @ 9:05am


    "remmber with Probability ..." (etc) - WRONG - probability says that no matter how many times you flip, you always have an equal chance of heads or tails - it will NEVER get closer to being even. That kind of ignorance is what the game designers are counting on.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  23. identicon
    Rawr, May 21st, 2007 @ 9:41pm


    Actually, "Anonymous Coward", if you studied statistics at all you would know that with more trials the coin toss approaches 50/50. Please don't bash people on subjects you don't understand

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  24. identicon
    swes, Jun 18th, 2007 @ 4:12am

    This game sucks

    the entropia universe really sucks and only play if you have lots of spare time or $$$.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  25. identicon
    Dani California, Jun 28th, 2007 @ 9:05pm

    If you are willing to violate game etiquite, it is quite easy to make PED. BEcause of mindarks champaigns, people who trade are highly looked down appon in this game. anyone who can make money in RS or WOW by merchanting, can make ped in this game, however, if you are a trader, you will have a bad rep, and ppl won't give you cheap prices. the solution is to use 2 avatars(a direct and serios violation of EULA, the games rules and regulations), one of the avatars buys, and one sells. other that being like NeverDie, the richest player in the game, who makes money by buying amssive tracts of Virtual real estate(which he can charge taxes on) for hundreds of thousands of USD, this is bascicly the only way to make money (srry for spelling errors, im dyslexic)

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  26. identicon
    EntropiaSaver, Aug 3rd, 2007 @ 2:42am

    there is no such thing as "luck" in entropia, There is no "Luck" factor. MindArk have confirmed this.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  27. identicon
    EntropiaSaver, Aug 3rd, 2007 @ 2:43am

    Re: This game sucks

    And your authority for that statement is?

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  28. identicon
    Birlz, Oct 8th, 2007 @ 4:23am


    Well I belive that someone from PE staff has said "There is no "Luck" factor" but I play this game since 6 years ago and I can ensure you that lucky factor exists ... there's a thing called HoF ( Hall fo Fame ) that is like a jackpot.
    I had a "jackpot" few minutes after logged in for the first time ... was nor a huge amount but it was something like 60 USD.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  29. identicon
    Birlz, Oct 8th, 2007 @ 4:25am

    I forgot to say that some "jackpots" are really huge amounts of money ...

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  30. identicon
    um, Mar 4th, 2008 @ 3:00pm


    um can some one tell me pleas in english do u have to spend any real chash to play this game or no

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  31. identicon
    drich, May 20th, 2008 @ 3:45pm

    Re: Re:sir you are also an idiot

    just in case you havn't noticed...there is no taking money out of least not at any normal level. Even if you made thirty bucks in the game in a year - which is unlikely - it is not possible to make withdraws until you have mega-bucks in the game.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  32. identicon
    Renegade, May 31st, 2008 @ 2:29pm

    Project Entropew

    This "game" is the worst thing I have ever played in my life. It shouldn't exist, those who made it should be executed in the most brutal way possible and every player should be hung by their balls on top of the Empire State Building while getting shot at by angry lumberjacks. Let me explain you why.

    Even if you insert 10 bucks (100 PED), grind some loot and manage to make like 20 PED (The retarded name of the in-game dollar) you need at least 100$ (1000 PED) on your character if you wanna withdraw. You can already forget about your 100$ since you need to buy your first armor and lazer gun which cost about 20$, PLUS YOUR FUCKING AMMO that runs out faster than fat United-Statians running out of McDonald's.

    Oh yeah, the loot you'll gather after using all of your ammo (Which should take about half an hour) is worth approximatively 3$ (Same as the most basic ammo). If you're not discouraged of playing by now, you really should reconsider your entire life.

    So if you put in only 10$ and wish to make profit, you have to play for AT LEAST 6 months. Doing extremely boring stuff like gathering sweat (WTF?) from monsters.

    It wouldn't be so bad if you could just say: "You know what? Fuck this "game". It's boring, inane, pointless, time and life consuming." and then withdraw all of the money, or what's left of it, but no. You need to have at least 100$ on your character in order to withdraw.

    And don't give me that NeverDie idiot bullshit, that guy took out a loan of 100 000$ US while mortgaging his house, car and everything he owned to have his own space station and he's just lucky that his plans worked out and became a millionaire. He's the single father of 2 young kids and he gambled their life and security by doing that. His wife fucking died and the bastard just wanted his non-existant space station.

    He put his fucking space station before the well-being of his kids. What a fucking son of a bitch. People playing Project Entropia are worse than emos, black ghetto people and rap put together.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  33. identicon
    kim, Jul 10th, 2008 @ 10:21am


    I have played for for a few weeks. I have invested about $30 usd and have 1 HOF for 1000 ped, 1 global for 154 pes, 2 robot space ships which were worth 231 peds each [462 peds] and a tradeskilling global of 60 ped, not to mention several 40 ped hunting loots off a single monster. I had enough to cash out in the first few weeks, i did not cash out because i like to play the game and i now have good armor and good weapons and good mining equipment so i can now make even more money that I did with my noob gear. I will buy a store front soon so i can sell some of my loot.
    There is an element to the game beyond luck and i have no problem finding peds when i need them.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  34. identicon
    Joe, Aug 5th, 2008 @ 5:14am

    Re: Pe

    I believe it is possible tomake money from EU,Kim if you dont mind would you be my mentor.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  35. identicon
    sourabh, Sep 8th, 2008 @ 4:20am

    Worst game ever

    This is the worst & most expensive game I have ever played.u don't enjoy this game bcz u see hundred of dollars disappearing in just a matter of few hours.Its just a online casino.And u will make more money working in MCdonalds in 1 day than u make in 2 weeks in this game.And they refused to sent me any money to my account when made a widthrawal request.Damm the makers of a sucking game.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  36. identicon
    justin, Oct 9th, 2008 @ 7:42am

    this site gives you free peds for surveys, pop bottle codes, and playing games.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  37. identicon
    mmhpez, Oct 12th, 2008 @ 12:29pm

    Free pez?

    Where free pez? Oh, peds. I'd rather scalp some newbs for their sweat.

    Haha, a game model built with swords more expensive than guns in the immediacy, waste all your ammo sense and also making you "sweat" as if sitting at range with a gun not "sweat farming" up close and near mobs within a set range to build peds is good. Most people I saw on today in many areas were either grouping for fun or trying to farm sweat and hawk it to people "Vibrant Sweat", damn, it's a vibrant thing. Where's Q-tip when you need him, he'd probably throw some money at a sword and laugh at the sweat farming peeps wasting shots on ammo, I fully understand why someone was making fun of a player today farming sweat for ammo. ^_^

    Personally, I'd buy a really shiny sword for a few bucks, vendor it and then get the card so in the future if I want to buy a shiny sword to use I could always vendor it and get half my money back unlike ige and other RMT markets. ^_^

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  38. identicon
    Some Guy., Oct 13th, 2008 @ 2:10pm

    Its actually cheaper to use a gun and buy ammo than it is to buy the sword.
    Melee weapons tend to decay very quickly.. whereas your gun will last you quite a while.

    I've been studying the way things work a little.

    Its not the same as a casino in that chances are 50/50. MindArk has put it somewhere closer to 40/60, so that they always come out on top in the long run.

    You CAN make $ in Entropia, but Not from the company. Not likely to do so through hunting or mining. Only through trading or providing a service to other players, can you get those $ from the other players.

    MindArk does make $, every time you fire off a round. Every time you auction something, every time you repair. All that is $ in their pocket. Some of it is given back in 'random' loot.. which probably ain't so much random as it is based on a business model as suggested above..

    Ped spent on repair, terminal purchases, and auction levy gets pooled.. MindArk takes a cut.. say 20%.. and the rest is 'randomly' redistributed in materials on mobs or in mining.

    And then there's the crafting business.. but I dunno about that yet ^^

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  39. identicon
    Casual Explorer, Oct 15th, 2008 @ 6:07am

    Dont believe the hype

    The truth about entropia is that you will spend more time and money than you will ever make unless you used to work for mind ark.

    It takes YEARS to build up EXTREMELY tedious skill points to make the game even the least bit profitable. Especially if you are putting US dollars in the game.

    It is set up in the beginning to be mind numbingly fustrating because you have absolutely nothing but a deteriorated jail sweatsuit which you cant even put back on if you take it off. If you take off any clothing they deteriorate which costs you money to repair so its not like you can run around wearing damaged useless armor, you cant even equip it if it gets too low.

    You have to chase around and suck the sweat off of hostile animals for .5-.6 cents a bottle which you cant just turn in someplace, you have to stand someplace and try to find a buyer so you can get enough money to buy a cheap gun which will need ammo which you will not be able to afford without more sweating.

    There are "societies" that you can join of other players who can help answer your questions, the only high mark for the game is the people, most of them are very cordial.

    The look of the game is nice, the music is ok, and for the most part if you like to explore, its not bad for a free to download game.

    Just dont kid yourself, if you want to make money in it, apply for a job with mind ark.

    If not, be prepared to deposit $100.00 US per month for at least a year or put in a few thousand to get a store in a mall where you can sell your stuff.

    this advice goes for second life too, which i also explore- if a game is free to download, and it allows you to put money in, consider the fee at least 2K plus 1year of looking around.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  40. identicon
    Deathbringer Imahara, Dec 6th, 2008 @ 7:05pm

    Re: Re: I QUIT!!

    It's harder then you think, especially if you don't deposit money into the game

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  41. identicon
    Wolf, Apr 18th, 2009 @ 8:36pm

    I like the game = )

    I've only started this character a few weeks ago, and put in 60 dollars, and I've been making quite a bit of money. I've been watching this game since 2001, when I first played it. I stopped playing it for so long they deleted my old character. I have to say, this game rocks. Yes, alot of money is wasted with noobs putting tons of money in, and going around randomly burning it without really being thoughtful about what they are putting their money in. If you do it right though, you can break even or make more money than you put in. Mainly? This game is fun, it's a blast actually. Even if you don't make money, there are alot of things you put your time into in life that doesn't make money. You do it for entertainment.

    At least with this game, you do it for entertainment, and a chance to invest in skills which may make you money some day if you do it right.

    Yes, I think the odds are towards PE = ) However that does not mean if you're smart you can't also take a cut. You don't have to scam other players either, to make money.

    Project entropia is a great game. I just wish they would get rid of those slutty outfits they have for the characters.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  42. identicon
    Patrick, Apr 30th, 2009 @ 12:36am

    Read above post first then read this ;)

    For the money pincher it is smart to be thoughtful where the money goes. When you put money into the game there is an amount taken off as a tax, remember that.

    Second, when you sweat it takes forever but remember that if you sweat an animal and then kill it you will have possibly already paid, via sweat, for the ammo spent killing that animal.

    Third, you don't want to get into this game just to make cash- typically doing that for anything but a real job just doesn't work.

    Fourth, get a mentor and be smart about who you choose as they could screw you over just to get a gift later.

    Fifth, don't waste ammo and make sure to read up on items before you buy them as some things are better to put off buying.

    Last, there is a market in the game and prices go up and fall so you want to be timely about buying things.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  43. identicon
    charlie, Apr 1st, 2010 @ 12:23pm

    making money without investing

    i havnt downloaded the game yet but download is ongoing

    just need to know if selling sweat is the only way to make money without time wasteing

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  44. identicon
    Tracy, May 12th, 2011 @ 1:26am


    Free to download, free to play, most items have some sort of monetary value and are difficult to obtain without depositing, but not altogether impossible. Id suggest for a reasonably serious gamer what you want to do is maybe deposit say 20 bucks a week or so for a year or two. Take baby baby steps the entire way. Dont use big guns or big armor until you have the skills to back them up. Stick to small game in which you can turn a profit using very efficient equipment. Always sell items in bulk and attempt to avoid using auction house whenever possible to avoid the AH fees altogether. Pay close attention to trends and items pricing. Become your OWN market maker. I.E. Buy every single one of a certain item that is somewhat rare and useful. Once the items are all in your inventory jack the prices up considerably and sell em 1 at a time. GG

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  45. identicon
    Ceasser, Feb 14th, 2014 @ 11:56am

    Free PEDs

    If tired of sweating you can also make money doing easy tasks that are paid out in PED!

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  46. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Jan 27th, 2015 @ 10:02am


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