Meta Moves To More Directly Connect To ActivityPub, But Is It Really Open?

from the how-open-is-open dept

Meta is actually making moves to live up to its promise to integrate Threads into the open ActivityPub standard used by a variety of “fediverse” platforms such as Mastodon and Pixelfed. It’s a fundamental boost to the concept of protocols over platforms, but it’s still not entirely clear how “open” Meta is really going to be with Threads.

In the last few months, I’ve been to a few different gatherings that were heavily populated by Meta folks working on Threads where they’ve made it quite clear that they are earnest about embracing the ActivityPub standard, which we noted was an incredibly important step for Meta.

Every Meta product to date has been a closed, proprietary silo. Once you check in, your only way to check out is to leave the platform entirely, meaning you can no longer easily see posts from others on the platform or communicate with them as easily either. Embracing ActivityPub, a standardized decentralized protocol that allows for a more “federated” experience, was a big step towards a more protocolized world.

It was something Meta didn’t have to do, but it’s a move that could impact the wider thinking about how social media platforms operate and who actually controls the data.

Now, some users who rely on ActivityPub (mostly on Mastodon, but many other services as well) have been quite nervous about Meta’s embrace of ActivityPub, as there’s a legitimate fear of it overwhelming the system or causing problems. Or, if Meta wanted to be nefarious, the infamous Microsoft-endorsed strategy of embrace, extend, extinguish, was always lurking.

And while that’s always possible, there are a few reasons to be moderately optimistic. One reason is just that the folks at Meta working on this seem quite aware of that fear and are doing everything they can to minimize the risks and to be good neighbors in the wider fediverse. And while there is still some fear that maybe they only send out the nice, earnest believers to the meetings, while the real bastards are waiting behind the scenes, even if Meta did try to destroy ActivityPub, the nature of it being an open standard limits how much damage it could really do.

Some instances are already blocking Threads, and if Meta becomes too much of a problem, then others would likely do so as well.

And while some had predicted that Meta would never actually embrace Threads, it keeps turning on more functionality, bit by bit. The latest functionality is that users on Threads can now see likes and replies from the wider Fediverse. Before this, users on ActivityPub-based systems like Mastodon could follow Threads users who opted-in to connect to the Fediverse, but the users on Threads would not see any “likes” or replies. And now that’s changing.

This follows what Meta folks have suggested over the last few months of rolling out ActivityPub integration slowly and carefully, to make sure they really don’t overwhelm or break things.

I think all of this is good so far, and it’s good to see a major platform embracing more decentralized social media. But there are still some concerns.

Just a few weeks ago, in a conversation with some researchers about decentralized social media, I pointed out the one thing I’d really like to see, but hadn’t yet, from the Meta side: third-party clients and additional services built on top of Meta. But, to date, I hadn’t seen any.

And, a few days later, I learned one reason why. Over on Bluesky David Thiel pointed out that, last fall, Meta had big-time lawyers at Perkins Coie send cease and desist letters to developers building a Threads API client that would have enabled more third-party apps and services. And, indeed, you can see that threat letter on the unofficial Threads API Github.

Image

There are a few ways to think about this. First, given how much shit that Meta got into (including massive fines) for the whole Cambridge Analytica mess, you can see why they might want to more tightly control any API access. And sending threat letters to unofficial API tools is one way to do that.

Also, one could argue that thanks to the increasing ActivityPub integration, those who want to build can just build something for ActivityPub and get access to any Threads content from users on Threads who turn on ActivityPub integration. So, arguably, the existing ActivityPub ecosystem can act as a third party to Threads.

But, even as Threads expands its ActivityPub integration, that solution is still quite limited.

So while it’s nice to see Threads really doing more to integrate with ActivityPub, it seems like its lack of true openness still suggests an inherently closed and centralized system, rather than a truly decentralized one.

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Companies: meta, threads

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Comments on “Meta Moves To More Directly Connect To ActivityPub, But Is It Really Open?”

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20 Comments
Anonymous Coward says:

Google has also killed XMPP (a protocol used in a bunch of decentralized chat apps) because they wanted to offer more functionalities that the standard could offer, and faster, so they’ve created they own version of the standard, until regular XMPP couldn’t communicate with Google users.
ActivityPub is not a very… active standard, it’s possible that Thread want more from it, and, naturally faster, until they decide to create their own derived protocol.
ActivityPub has been created with versatility in mind, but it hasn’t been used for apps of the scale of Thread, performance (due to verbosity of the protocol) can also be a good reason to create a custom protocol.
I don’t think there is an evil plot to destroy the Fediverse but just a complete incompatibility of aim.
After all, they destroyed the Metaverse before it existed.

Anonymous Coward says:

even if Meta did try to destroy ActivityPub, the nature of it being an open standard limits how much damage it could really do.

This statement again[0] misunderstand the fundamental nature of “embrace, extend, extinguish”. It’s a social thing. If everyone becomes dependent on a (future) proprietary extensions to an otherwise open protocol, who ever controls those extensions controls the ecosystem (that IS what “everyone depends on” means).

If you wanted to argue that “embrace, extend, extinguish” was not at all a threat you would have to argue something like “Meta has no credible hope for gaining mindshare”, or “There are too many, entrenched, communities that would flat out reject extensions that were not also fully open”, or maybe something similar (note: I’m not suggesting either of the two examples is true, just that it is a valid argument).

[0] stuff like this has been said in Techdirt articles before.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re:

On a further note: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_extinguish

describes it as “[a] strategy for entering product categories involving widely used open standards, extending those standards with proprietary capabilities, and using the differences to strongly disadvantage its competitors. ”

emphasis mine. Anyhow claiming something’s openness will make it resist a strategy that has been successfully deployed against open ecosystems… is not really a strong argument.

Arianity says:

It was something Meta didn’t have to do,

It didn’t have to yet, but with the way EU regulators have been breathing down their necks with the DMA, they now have a pretty big incentive.

, even if Meta did try to destroy ActivityPub, the nature of it being an open standard limits how much damage it could really do.

So were many of the standards that were targeted by “embrace, extend, extinguish”? I don’t see the distinction you’re making.

pixelpusher220 (profile) says:

Re: They don't control the standard

They can make changes to their implementation, but that’s not the ‘standard’. The ActivityPub protocol is a published W3C standard, it doesn’t just get ‘changed’.

If they make themselves non-interoperable, then the existing community continues on as is. (which is entirely what many on Mastodon at least would prefer anyway)

Arianity says:

Re: Re:

They can make changes to their implementation, but that’s not the ‘standard’. The ActivityPub protocol is a published W3C standard, it doesn’t just get ‘changed’.

EEE doesn’t have to involve changing the underlying standard, although that is something they also did/do. That is the same thing as the extend in EEE. To quote Wikipedia on it:

Extend: Addition of features not supported by the Open Standard, creating interoperability problems.

If they make themselves non-interoperable, then the existing community continues on as is.

That was also true for EEE. The extinguish was

Extinguish: When extensions become a de facto standard because of their dominant market share, they marginalize competitors who are unable to support the new extensions.

The idea of embrace/extend/extinguish wasn’t to change the underlying standard. The idea was comply with the standard to get buy in, add extra unique features, and then ‘extinguish’ by virtue of becoming a market leader. None of those steps require changing the underlying protocol, rather it’s a way to offramp people to a seemingly ‘better’ (in the short term) proprietary system and locking them into that. That effectively ‘kills’ the standard because hardly anyone will use it (relatively), even if it technically still exists in the same form it did before.

Many of the standards they tried to supplant technically still exist, it’s just no meaningful amount of users use them. Mastodon/ActivityPub face the exact same type of threat model.

This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it.

Anonymous Coward says:

It’s a trick – get an axe.

Facebook, like Microsoft is the enemy of security and privacy and will ALWAYS be the enemy. Not just because it’s run by sociopathic thug Mark Zuckerberg, but because its entire corporate philosophy is built on doing whatever it wants without the slightest regard for standards, the Internet, or human society.

Just as Microsoft’s “embrace” of Linux is a con game, Facebook’s “embrace” of ActivityPub is a ruse. The Fediverse would do well to ban Facebook and blacklist its employees from participation — for life.

Anonymous Coward says:

Threads requires an instagram account currently, and I tried to make a separate one just for threads, specifically because my use cases and intersecting people are so different. Meta blocked the second account immediately for whatever reason, claiming it was fraudulent.

I thought that was remarkable and also darkly amusing considering that when my friend’s account was stolen to sell cryptocurrency they refused to do anything for 6 months, simply replying that they found no problem, ie it was completely likely that an internet-famous artist had suddenly started selling cryptocurrency from a new IP address.

Anyway it seems to me that with their zeal to keep Threads tightly integrated to the Instagram userbase, it’s unlikely they’ll accept Mastadon and ActivityPub, regardless of anything they say. Their actions belie it.

Elfin (profile) says:

We don't care ...

Meta has already tried a few things:

  1. Blocking (rather) large instances because they don’t conform to their rules (NAZIS often get a pass, Trans less so). We don’t care.
  2. The Demand we Comply with their Requests that a post get deleted on Fedi. Yeah, no, not your platform, and my instance doesn’t belong to you. And another admin I might listen to and take seriously but meta goes in /dev/null. So, no. My instance, block me from your customer base PLEASE! That’s groovy. We don’t care.
  3. Most of Masto specifically, but Fedi in general, blocked Threads immediately, the reset took one for the team to see how bad it could get, and they blocked Threads as well. We don’t care

This is, in fact, the whole fucking point. Any moderator can do what they want with their instance. Threads weeds Itself out of most feeds. This is a feature, not a bug.

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