How To Misrepresent A Supreme Court Hearing: National Review Edition

from the apparently-the-NRO-will-let-you-make-shit-up dept

I wrote a long post on Monday about the oral arguments in the Murthy v. Missouri case. I highlighted how skeptical most of the Justices seemed regarding the arguments from the states, especially given the extensive problems in the record, which multiple Justices picked up on. Most other legal expert commentators came to a similar conclusion, that the Supreme Court seemed skeptical of the argument from the states.

So I was kind of surprised to see Brent Skorup from the Cato Institute writing a piece for the National Review that suggested the Supreme Court was poised to dismantle the “censorship-industrial complex” and claimed that the Justice Department defended said “censorship” in the oral arguments.

Because none of that actually happened.

I had certainly been curious to see how those who had been triumphantly trumpeting this case as proof of a grand “censorship industrial complex” would respond to how the hearing went. Most seem to be in varying states of denial. Many seem angry, insisting that the Justices just didn’t understand or didn’t look at the details (when the reality appears to be the opposite).

Some, instead, focused on the very problematic comments from Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson that seemed to suggest she was leaning way too far in the other direction. These comments suggested that maybe the government should have more leeway in pressuring private companies to take down speech. As we called out in our original writeup, this line of questioning did seem extremely problematic. However, there is a more generous interpretation: that she was noting that the determining factor is if it can pass strict scrutiny or not, and the argument from the states didn’t even leave room for that possibility. That is, it wasn’t necessarily support for coercive behavior, but rather pointing out that there could, in theory, be cases where coercive power is allowed if it passes strict scrutiny (I have problems with that theory, but if she’s just pointing out that Missouri’s test doesn’t leave that open, it’s a fair point).

But Skorup’s NRO piece is just bizarrely disconnected from reality. It comes across as what one would write if you had not actually read any of the briefings in the case, nor listened to the oral arguments, but rather simply imagined what might have happened based on a very distorted, and not very factual, understanding of the case.

First of all, the framing is simply incorrect. It starts out like this:

In oral arguments on Monday, the U.S. Department of Justice urged the Supreme Court to let government officials, including federal law-enforcement agencies, tell social-media company officials, in secret, what content to delete.

Except… that’s not even close to true. The DOJ’s position was actually that they had not told social media companies what to delete. They expressly admitted that if they had done that, it would be a First Amendment violation. Like, literally, here is what the Principal Deputy Solicitor General said in the oral arguments:

…we don’t say that the government can coerce private speakers. That is prohibited by the First Amendment.

The DOJ explicitly admitted that if it was trying to coerce private speakers, that would violate the First Amendment. They repeatedly pointed out that there was no actual evidence presented in the case that it had coerced anyone. So it’s both bizarre, and wrong, to claim that the DOJ “urged the Supreme Court to let government officials… tell social-media company officials, in secret, what content to delete.”

No one made that argument at all. Skorup and the National Review are lying to their readers.

And it gets worse.

The plaintiffs presented damning evidence, including internal government emails and testimony from government officials. They documented federal officials’ immense pressure on social-media companies, including profane emails and vague threats from White House officials to Facebook officials to remove vaccine “disinformation,” as well as messages from the FBI to several social-media companies with spreadsheets of accounts and content that the agency wanted removed. The FBI followed up on its requests at quarterly meetings with companies, keeping internal notes of which companies were complying with FBI demands. Perhaps the messages were innocent — we may never know because the FBI used encrypted communications and has not revealed their contents.

This is not what happened at all. Again, we’ve gone through pages and pages of evidence presented in this case and, as we’ve highlighted over and over again, there was no “damning evidence”. There were situations where the plaintiffs in the case took things out of context, or completely misrepresented the context.

The whole thing about the FBI sending “spreadsheets of accounts and content that the agency wanted removed,” is something that did not happen in the way presented. That would be clear if one had looked at the actual evidence or actually listened to the oral arguments. Fletcher explained the spreadsheet situation during the arguments:

… for example, when the FBI would send communications to the platforms saying, for your information, it has come to our attention that the following URLs or email addresses or other selectors are being used by maligned foreign actors like Russian intelligence operatives to spread disinformation on your platforms, do with it what you will.

Indeed, as Yoel Roth later described in writing about this, this kind of information sharing was simply as presented: “we’ve found these things, do what you want with it if you find it useful.” It was not seen as even remotely coercive nor a list of “what accounts to remove.” Efforts at dealing with large-scale foreign intelligence operatives frequently meant tracking the content to identify the source of a foreign influence campaign, not just taking content down upon receipt.

In several others, the FBI passes lists of accounts that they “believe are violating your terms of service” or “may be subject any actions [sic] deemed appropriate by Twitter.” The FBI fastidiously—and I would argue conspicuously, in the evidence presented—avoids both assertions that they’ve found platform policy violations, and requests that Twitter do anything other than assess the reported content under the platform’s applicable policies.

Receiving and acting on external reports is a core function of platform content moderation teams, and the essential nature of this work is an independent evaluation of reported content under the platform’s own policies. The fact, cited in Missouri v. Biden, that platforms only acted on approximately half of reports from the FBI shows clearly that the standards platforms applied were not wholly, or even mostly, the government’s.

Finally, it does not withstand factual scrutiny that platforms were so petrified of adverse consequences from the FBI that they uncritically accepted and acted on information sent to them by the government. The Twitter Files themselves document clearly at least two instances in which, presented with low-quality information or questionable demands, Twitter pushed back on the FBI’s requests. In one case, the FBI passes on a request—seemingly from the NSA—that Twitter “revis[e] its terms of service” to allow an open-source intelligence vendor to collect data from the Twitter APIs to inform the NSA’s activities. This request is arguably as close to jawboning as any interaction between Twitter and the FBI gets; yet, in response, I summarily dismissed not only the request for a meeting to discuss the topic, but the entire premise of the request, writing, “The best path for NSA, or any part of government, to request information about Twitter users or their content is in accordance with valid legal process.” The question was not raised again.

If you look at the actual emails from the FBI (which have been released), you see that Roth is exactly correct. They are clear that this is just information sharing, and they all involve accounts that were claimed to be part of a Russian disinformation campaign. The FBI is explicit: “For your review and action as deemed appropriate.” Not “take it down.” Just “here’s what we found, do what you want with it.”

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And the report in which those emails are released, from Jim Jordan’s committee in the House, admits that “Meta did not immediately take noticeable action against these accounts.” This again highlights that nothing in these communications were deemed by either side as demands for removals.

Other emails from the FBI, including ones to Twitter, also follow this pattern. In one highlighted exchange in the report, the FBI emailed Roth a list of potential Russian disinformation spreaders, and Roth called out that some appeared to not be Russian at all, but rather American and Canadian. This is not what you’d expect him to do if he was being told to just pull those down and feared retaliation if he pushed back. Roth asked for more context, and the FBI responded that it didn’t have anything else to provide and noted, again, that it was totally up to Twitter how to handle the information:

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During the oral arguments, the Justices seemed reasonably confused as to how this bit of information sharing was problematic. Justice Barrett seemed surprised when asking Louisiana’s Solicitor General why the FBI shouldn’t be able to share such information. This led him to admit that yes, he thinks in retrospect that the FBI “absolutely can identify certain troubling situations like that for the platforms and let the platforms take action.”

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You would think that an article talking about the oral arguments would… maybe point that out? Instead, it insists that the FBI’s actions must have been censorial, when even the states admitted to the Justices that maybe it wasn’t that bad.

Another example of a misrepresentation of the record, that we highlighted, was where the plaintiffs took an email from Francis Collins to Anthony Fauci, in which Collins suggested that they needed to address some misleading information about COVID by responding to it. Collins said “there needs to be a quick and devastating published take down of its premises.”

The word “published” was removed in the hands of the states and the district court. It was said that Collins demanded “there needs to be a… take down of its premises,” which the court said was proof that Collins demanded the information be taken down. That was false.

Skorup and the National Review engage in similarly misleading selective quoting.

Take this paragraph:

However, there are clear signs many U.S. government officials want to censor topics far beyond just vaccines, and that they view American minds as a theater over which their legal authority extends. For instance, the director of a federal cybersecurity and infrastructure agency noted at a 2021 event that the agency was expanding beyond protecting dams and electric substations from internet hackers to exerting “rumor control” during elections, saying, “We are in the business of critical infrastructure. . . . And the most critical infrastructure is our cognitive infrastructure.” A White House national climate adviser stated at an Axios event: “We need the tech companies to really jump in” and remove green energy “disinformation.”

Notice how carefully the quote marks are used here to imply that government officials were pushing for websites to “remove” content, but that’s not actually stated in any of the actual quotes. If you look at the actual event, the “national climate advisor” (who has no authority to regulate or punish companies in the first place) was saying that disinformation about climate change is a real threat to the planet, and that she’s hoping that tech companies don’t let it spread as far. She wasn’t talking to the companies. She wasn’t threatening the companies. This is classic bully pulpit kind of talk that is allowed on the “persuasion” side of the line.

As for the quote above it, again, when put back into context, it shows the exact opposite of what Skorup falsely implies. It’s CISA director Jen Easterly who did talk about “cognitive infrastructure,” but in context, she talks about “resiliency” to disinformation, including making sure people have more access to accurate info. Literally nothing in the discussion suggests content should be removed:

“One could argue we’re in the business of critical infrastructure, and the most critical infrastructure is our cognitive infrastructure, so building that resilience to misinformation and disinformation, I think, is incredibly important,” Easterly said. 

“We are going to work with our partners in the private sector and throughout the rest of the government and at the department to continue to ensure that the American people have the facts that they need to help protect our critical infrastructure,” she added. 

As for the whole “rumor control” effort by CISA, Skorup doesn’t seem to realize that it was set up in 2020 by the Trump administration. It was about providing more info (more speech) not removing speech. Everything about what is presented in the article is inherently misleading.

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Each time Skorup presents some of the evidence, he uses selective quotation to hide what was actually being talked about:

Department of Homeland Security documents obtained and released by U.S. Senator Chuck Grassley show a 2022 plan to “operationaliz[e] public-private partnerships between DHS and Twitter” regarding content takedowns. Further, red flags are present at the social-media companies: Many hire former federal officials to their “trust and safety” teams, and others have created online portals to fast-track government agencies’ content-takedown requests.

Again, it helps to look at the source documents here to understand what’s actually being discussed. The out of context line about “operationalizing public private partnerships” was entirely about the (yes, stupidly named and poorly explained) Disinformation Governance Board, which never actually did anything before being disbanded. And from the notes, the “operationalize” bit is clearly about figuring out what information (again, more speech!) Twitter would find useful in dealing with mis- and disinformation, not “what content should be taken down.” Furthermore, these were prep notes for a meeting a DHS official was having with Twitter, with no evidence that Twitter ever seriously considered working with DHS in this manner.

Facts matter. Skorup is misrepresenting them almost whole cloth.

But, what’s really perplexing is that Skorup’s version of what happened at the Supreme Court does not come even remotely close to what actually happened at the Supreme Court. Justices from Amy Coney Barrett to Sonia Sotomayor to Brett Kavanaugh to Elena Kagan all called out these kinds of errors in the states’ arguments.

Skorup mentions none of that.

Instead, he falsely claims that the DOJ “urged the Supreme Court to let government officials, including federal law-enforcement agencies, tell social-media company officials, in secret, what content to delete.” That simply did not happen. They repeatedly agreed that if that had happened it would be a problem, but focused much of the discussion on how that had not actually happened.

Honestly, reading Skorup’s piece, it felt as if it had been written prior to the oral arguments and without reading any of the relevant briefs in the case. And, maybe that’s because it had been. In researching this piece, I came across a surprisingly similar piece also written by Skorup that made many of the same claims… over a year ago. Before the case had been even decided by the district or appeals courts. Before the problems with all the evidence were widely documented. It’s almost as if he took that piece and rewrote it for the National Review, without bothering to check on anything.

This seems like a form of journalistic malpractice that you’d think the National Review would not support. But, alas, these days the National Review apparently doesn’t much care about facts or accuracy so long as a piece agrees with the narrative it wishes to push.

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Comments on “How To Misrepresent A Supreme Court Hearing: National Review Edition”

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MrWilson (profile) says:

So I was kind of surprised to see Brent Skorup from the Cato Institute writing a piece for the National Review that suggested the Supreme Court was poised to dismantle the “censorship-industrial complex” and claimed that the Justice Department defended said “censorship” in the oral arguments.

I mean, this is exactly the agenda-serving spin I expect from the Cato Institute.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Conservatism has never been legitimate. It’s always been about maintaining a class of people who can be readily exploited. It was true during the civil war. It was true during Jim crow. It’s true now.

HST was calling out the fascism and propaganda in the Republican party during the Nixon administration. Murdoch spun up Fox News so that the next Nixon could get away with it.

Seriously. If this surprises you from a right-wing think tank, you still aren’t paying attention.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re:

Their version of “small government” is taking a decision away from individuals and giving the decision to the states.

Just like the Puritans’ version of “religious freedom” was oppressing people who weren’t Puritans.

Conservatives and religious nuts have been selling the same vein of lies, hypocrisy, and brutality 1620.

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MrWilson (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2

False. The slaveowners were the conservatives who wanted to preserve their existing wealth and hierarchy. Like modern day right wing libertarians, they were nominally “small government” in the sense that they wanted the government to not prevent them from being modern feudal lords.

They’re also hypocrites because they don’t mind using big government against people they want to exploit, oppress, or disenfranchise. They claim to want less government only when it serves their purposes. The slaveowners were happy with the federal government when they got their way.

Neomarxism isn’t relevant here. There aren’t enough of any form of communist or socialist to change the US government anytime soon. You’re conjuring useless boogeymen and strawman arguments here. Also, opposing conservatives doesn’t make someone a neomarxist. That’s a false dilemma fallacy.

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Benjamin Jay Barber says:

Re: 2020 election facts

I was involved as computer forensics person, providing to lawyers the list of dead people voting in several states, and general election insecurities.

See e.g. PILF v. Boockvar

In my state (oregon) a person could in fact print a ballot at home, provided that they had the full name, date of birth, and drivers license, and send it in the mail. Moreover someone to request a ballot for another person, with this information, to be sent to them. The result would be to cancel the previous ballot, and a new ballot would be printed and sent to the new address.

Obviously this is identity theft and fraud, but there are entire industries built around preventing identity theft, and unlike in the financial fraud scenario where you can check your balance, there is no way to check that your vote was actually counted the way you intended it.

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MrWilson (profile) says:

Re: Re:

In your state, you’re full of shit and repeating a 4chan disinformation campaign. That you purport to trust green text is indicative of either your utter disingenuousness or your ignorance. And either are reasons to completely dismiss your assertions.

https://www.kgw.com/article/news/verify/verify-no-you-cannot-change-someones-vote-online-in-oregon/283-b3d2c150-2258-4ef8-898e-2e0fb0401524

For future reference: screenshots from 4chan are not proof of anything except maybe a claim that there’s a sewage leak on 4chan.

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That One Guy (profile) says:

'Alternative facts' strike again

When the facts support your argument/narrative, report on the facts.

When the law supports your argument/narrative, report on the law.

When neither the facts nor law support your argument/narrative, just make shit up and bank on your readers either not checking to see if you just lied to their faces and/or being so indoctrinated that they’ll immediately dismiss any evidence that you did so as ‘fake news’.

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Concerned reader says:

Kavanaugh's possible ulterior motives

Mike, I’m not a lawyer so forgive me if this doesn’t make sense.

But you probably know Kavanaugh’s views against net neutrality.

https://www.cadc.uscourts.gov/internet/opinions.nsf/06F8BFD079A89E13852581130053C3F8/$file/15-1063-1673357.pdf

Since you tweeted once about how the campaign against 230 has “turned net neutrality on its head”, is it possible that Kavanaugh is planning to write the majority opinion for malicious reasons — that is, in such a way as to cripple efforts at net neutrality?

Maybe by labelling an ISP as an “interactive computer service” as mentioned in 230 or something?

I know that lots of different groups are in on the anti-230 campaign but this strikes me as the ideal misleading framing desired by ISPs: “you can’t have it both ways, both Google and Comcast need to be treated the same way, you can’t have net neutrality without search/app/software/moderation/whatever neutrality as well”.

I am not trying to be negative but I am suspicious that this is exactly what the ISPs+Kavanaugh had planned all along.

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andrea iravani says:

The governments statement that “we are protecting critical infrastructure and our congitive infrastructure is our most important infrastructure” is just creepy Orwellian MKULTRA, BRAIN Iniative, Generative AI illegal enslavement, stealing other peoples’ intellectual property and trying to pass it off as their own. That is not their cognitive processes that are being helped either. There is no legitimate scuentific or medical benefit to implanting computer chips in people for any reason at all. It is extremely harmful. This is very elementary biology. 98% of paralyzed people recover from paralysis. It is extremely rare that people do not recover from paralysis. ALS is an instance where they do not recover, and ALS is extremely rare. I have known people that have recovered from paralysis from strokes, brain surgery injuries, motor cycle accidents, and Polio. Some people fully recover and some people recover with symptoms like tiring eadier, limping, or not being as steady as they were prior to the paralysis. Time heals many paralisis victims with cellular regeneration. It is just an excuse for Silicon Valley Tech companies and charaltan quacks to extort money from the federal government that will empower and enrich themselves, to the detriment of their victims, and to all of America because it is an evil, predatory, corrupt, psychopathic, medically and scientifically fraudulent thing to do to anyone. If someone is developing things by using Generative AI chatbots, they are not thinking at all. They are just commanding an AI chatbot to do something. So if they truly are worried about protecting cognition, then they should totally end the BRAIN Initative, and totally destroy all Generative AI chatbots. Since people have started using calculators and spell check, their math and spelling skills declined, not increased. Generative AI will prevent people from developing their own musical, artistic, creative, scientific, reasoning capabilities. It will not enhance those abilities. It will in fact degrade them.

The DOJ does in fact suppirt censorship, which they have proven by refusing to allow GITMO Detainiees from testafying, and through FISA Courts, censoring to the public in a secret illegal court to violate peoples’ constitutional rights, which is illegal and inexcuseable, and with the prosecution of Julian Assange. There is ample evidence that the courts favor censoring selectively when it benefits them to do it.

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andrea iravani says:

Re:

If people want to increase their cogiitive abilities, they should disvonnect their tvs. It is the worst think that anyone can do to their brain to just sit their passively for hours each day watching tv. You may as well just hook up to life suuport and call yourself brain dead. You will probably be much healthier, mentally, physically, emptionally, and spiritually too, because you will be doing other things, unless you are a psychopath that enjoys committing crime against people, if you are, then you are definitely better off keeping the tv on all the time.

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andrea iravani says:

Re: Re:

Of course every Dr. Frankenstein monster that is doing BRAIN Initiative experiments fully understands that tv is extremely harmful to both cognative development and in preventing premature memory loss, but they wont be raking in the dough by telling people to stop watching tv, and of course they all know how damaging running electricity through peopkes’ brains is and electroconvulsive therapy and stun gun deaths, electric chair deaths, lightning strike deaths, electrical workers being exposed to hogh levels of EMFs having higher rates of brain cancer than the rest of the population are just a few examples of this extremely elementary principle. They are charalatans that commit medical fraud as a survival tactic because they have the extremely severe neurological disease of psychopathy that has severely impaired their judgement. I am hinestly beginning to wonder if psychopaths are not human beings, because human beings are psychopaths enemies. Just as Japanese Beetles look like Lady Bugs, but behave completely different. You can tell that they are two different species by their behavior. Psychopaths do things that any non psychopath would never consider doing. They are incapable of resisting their monstrous impulses to the point that Ted Bundy escaped prison multiple times, and committed the same crime each time that he escaped. Just unstopable. That is the nature of psychopathy. They are not able to stop being sadistic evil predatory monsters. They literally could not do it if their life depended on it. Ted Bundy and Jeffey Dahmer are just a couple examples. everyone is ignoring the psychopaths in government, military, healthcare, mental healthcare, and the surveillance state that are internally driven to be sadistic evil monsters.

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Matthew M Bennett says:

You actual FFFing idiot

I was busy yesterday so I’m sad I didn’t catch this right away.

Everything that has ever appeared on National Review is better than any drivel you have ever posted.

Brent Skorup is a lawyer and you are not

He knows what he is talking about, and you do not.

And you wrote an article just walking into the buzzsaw. FFFing hilarious, you absolute idiot.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re:

Being a lawyer is no guarantee that someone else doesn’t know more about specific laws than you do. Brent Skorup may be a lawyer, but I’m willing to bet I know a whole lot more than he does about UK copyright law, since I’ve studied it and he hasn’t. However, I’m not at all surprised you’d come out in such strong support of a member of the Federalist Society.

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Matthew M Bennett says:

Re: Re:

However, I’m not at all surprised you’d come out in such strong support of a member of the Federalist Society.

….I’m flabbergasted. Shocked.

You think membership in the Federalist Society is a bad thing?!? Half my friends are members. Were I a lawyer I would absolutely be a member.

But it’s HILARIOUS you think that’s a slur of some kind. Next you’ll tell me he believes in limited government! My heart!

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:

Actually, I’ll tell you what’s hilarious. That you obviously believe that being a lawyer of any kind is a prerequisite to membership in FedSoc. It’s not, as it says itself. But you carry on boasting that you know more than anyone else here before proving that you actually know nothing at all and have absolutely no way of substantiating any of your claims. It’s funny.

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Matthew M Bennett says:

Re: Re: Re:2

I’m not sure you understand what the Federalist Society IS, considering you tried to use it as a slur. But every member I have ever known or have heard of is a lawyer. People generally join during law school, so I guess not technically a lawyer, yet.

What you linking to is essentially a donations page. I’m sure they’re happy to take anyone’s money, but it is definitely an org for lawyers.

you actually know nothing at all and have absolutely no way of substantiating any of your claims. It’s funny.

You’re a little out of your depth, I think.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:3

I’m not sure you understand what the Federalist Society IS, considering you tried to use it as a slur.

So, linking an individual to a group based on similarity of behavior is a slur now? I’m not sure you know what a slur is, and you’ve also demonstrated a complete lack of the ability to follow a link, given your unfair accusation against AC.

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MrWilson (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4

The supposed originalists don’t even know what they terms they use for themselves mean. Scalia claimed to be an originalist and then overturned hundreds of years of precedent and legal understanding because he liked guns.

You keep using these appeals to authority as if simply spending time on a subject matter makes someone immune from being wrong or being biased or intentionally spewing disinformation. Your naiveté is almost as alarming as how confidently you are incorrect.

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MrWilson (profile) says:

Re:

I was busy yesterday so I’m sad I didn’t catch this right away.

Wait, you do know that you’re not required to embarrass yourself in the comments, right? Did some vengeful sorcerer curse you to have to look like a rabid fool online or something?

Everything that has ever appeared on National Review is better than any drivel you have ever posted.

You can go read the National Review if you want. You’re just insulting yourself here.

Brent Skorup is a lawyer and you are not

Going to law school and passing the bar doesn’t make you smarter or even more informed than other people. It especially doesn’t prevent you from intentionally spewing agenda-serving disinformation. That you automatically attribute expertise to demonstrable bias is just more admission that you love to be told what you want to hear. You have no unique thought of your own. You’re a repeater station for manufactured bullshit.

And you wrote an article just walking into the buzzsaw.

He provided citations. Where are yours? Oh right, you think your “trust me, bro” appeal to authority fallacy is legitimate.

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Matthew M Bennett says:

Re: Re:

you actually know nothing at all and have absolutely no way of substantiating any of your claims. It’s funny.

I’m not sure what you think happened here.

Going to law school and passing the bar doesn’t make you smarter or even more informed than other people.

It does, actually. Legally even, it entitles you to give legal advice, which MM cannot.

He provided citations

Yes, MM OFTEN provides citations! Usually, he cites himself where he started lying about a thing, but sometimes he cites an actual document, and then just tells you that document says other than what is clearly written on the page, like he did with the Amazon shadowban case and Buzzfeed. Sometimes he just links randomly to things that aren’t terribly related to the subject. He likes to switch it up

Not sure what that has to do with anything tho.

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Strawb (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

Going to law school and passing the bar doesn’t make you smarter or even more informed than other people.

It does, actually. Legally even, it entitles you to give legal advice, which MM cannot.

Please cite the law that says a non-lawyer cannot give any kind of legal advice.

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Matthew M Bennett says:

Re: Re: Re:4

Giving legal advice and practicing law without a license are two different things, Matty.

They actually are not…

Your illiteracy has caught up with you once again.

…says the guy who very obviously did not read the article linked, at his request. Fuuuuuuuuck you’re dumb.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:3

From the link you provided:

Only attorneys can give others legal advice about what their legal rights are, what they need to do to protect those rights, or provide other forms of legal advice. **However, that doesn’t mean it’s illegal to speak to people about the law or to provide information to others or advice about what you think they should do.*

If Stawb is an idiot, what the hell does that make you?

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MrWilson (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

you actually know nothing at all and have absolutely no way of substantiating any of your claims. It’s funny.

I’m not sure what you think happened here.

I think you quoted someone else from a different comment here because you’re so desperate to tell everyone else they’re wrong that you’re mixing up the comments.

It does, actually.

Apparently you haven’t met very many lawyers. Being a lawyer literally just means you went to law school and passed the bar. It doesn’t speak to your knowledge on a particular topic and it doesn’t automatically designate you as smarter (the bar doesn’t test for intelligence) and it doesn’t even make you more of an expert on law. There are experienced paralegals who will know more about certain aspects of the law than a recently minted lawyer who just passed the bar but hasn’t practiced. Your eager willingness to assert expertise and ignore obvious bias simply because it mirrors your own bias is both ignorant and sycophantic.

Would you suddenly change your mind on the topic if a different lawyer said Skorup was full of shit? I’m guessing not, because you want to believe Skorup is right. But you can find lawyers who disagree with Skorup’s take, so by your weak “lawyers are experts and therefore right” logic, you’d have to accept contradictory positions. It’s like you never took a logic course in school.

Legally even, it entitles you to give legal advice, which MM cannot.

You don’t appear to know what legal advice is. You are confusing it with legal information. Non-lawyers are able to study the law, advise politicians on the law, lobby for changes to the law, point out the flaws in the law, and write articles about laws that attract rabid, ignorant trolls like you. Legal advice is given in the context of a client-attorney relationship, so your assertion that Mike isn’t qualified to provide it is irrelevant to the context of writing an article about legal issues. He’s not purporting to provide legal advice and he doesn’t need to have knowledge on the subject matter.

You seem to think legal advice is a magical spell rather than just a specific type of speech that carries with it responsibilities and liabilities for people in a particular profession.

If I tell you that popsicle sticks aren’t a good construction material for your bridge, you’d be an idiot to respond: “That’s not true because you’re not an engineer!”

Lawyers can also be biased and pursuing an agenda, which makes their questionable statements highly suspect, as is the case of Skorup here. That you think lawyers are magically immune from bias and intentional disinformation is oddly very ignorant and sycophantic at the same time.

Yes, MM OFTEN provides citations! Usually, he cites himself where he started lying about a thing, but sometimes he cites an actual document, and then just tells you that document says other than what is clearly written on the page, like he did with the Amazon shadowban case and Buzzfeed.

Not sure what that has to do with anything tho.

Mike provided citations that prove Skorup’s take is incorrect. Which is what we’re discussing. But you keep bringing up a beef about Amazon and your ignorance of the difference between “do not promote” and “shadowban,” which isn’t even a term applied to book sales.

Sometimes he just links randomly to things that aren’t terribly related to the subject. He likes to switch it up

You literally just referenced a random topic that isn’t at all related to the subject. If you had any credibility, you’d be losing it over your blatant hypocrisy.

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