Social Media Isn’t A Shopping Mall

from the and-law-professors-should-understand-that dept

Something strange is happening in the legal academy, and we’re worried about it. On January 23, 2024, the progressive policy organization American Economic Liberties Project filed an amicus brief in the Supreme Court case NetChoice v. Paxton, in support of a Texas law prohibiting social media companies from moderating – “censoring” in the words of the law – the speech of their users, especially conservatives. The brief was joined by several prominent progressive law professors from Harvard (Larry Lessig), Columbia (Tim Wu and Richard John), Fordham (Zephyr Teachout), and Emory (Matthew Lawrence).

Now, there’s nothing improper or even unusual about law professors writing or joining amicus briefs. One of us is a law professor who has written and joined several himself (and the other has worked with lawyers on and joined many amicus briefs as well). And there’s nothing wrong with progressives supporting conservative positions (or vice versa). The law can make for curious bedfellows. Here, both conservatives and progressives want the government to regulate social media companies more aggressively, albeit for different reasons and in different ways.

But there are some serious problems with the AELP brief: It objectively misrepresents the law it purports to describe. AELP claims that the First Amendment allows the government to prohibit social media companies from discriminating against speech they disapprove, because their websites are “digital commercial ‘properties’ made open by their owners for public use.” It relies on the Supreme Court’s 1980 PruneYard opinion, which held that the First Amendment allowed California to require a private shopping center that was open to the public to allow its patrons to exercise a reasonable right to free speech. AELP argues that social media websites are analogous to shopping centers, so the First Amendment allows Texas to regulate them in the same way, by requiring them to permit speech they disapprove.

While many lawyers and legal scholars think PruneYard is no longer good law (following later rulings that pared it back), it was never explicitly overruled, so AELP can still rely on it. But AELP should not misrepresent what PruneYard actually said.

As AELP admits, the Supreme Court’s 1974 Miami Herald opinion held that the First Amendment prohibited Florida from requiring a newspaper to print a political candidate’s reply to a critical article. According to AELP, PruneYard distinguished Miami Herald by holding that “open-access laws do not present the same First Amendment concerns as right-to-reply laws.” That is false. The Supreme Court didn’t say anything about open-access laws. It said that Miami Herald “rests on the principle that the State cannot tell a newspaper what it might print.”

AELP tries to salvage its imaginary distinction between open-access and right-to-reply laws by insisting that “the Miami Herald newspaper did not hold its pages open to all members of the public.” That is also false. Yes, newspapers exercise “editorial discretion” over which articles they print. But newspapers don’t just publish articles, they also publish ads. And they’re generally happy to publish advertisements by anyone willing to pay. AELP insists that “Newspapers are exclusive publications; the public cannot, at any moment, publish their views in the New York Times.” Yes, they can. All they have to do is buy an ad. So, newspapers are, in fact, “open to all members of the public” willing to pay for the privilege. In AELP’s terms, newspapers are and always have been “open-access.”

That’s fatal to AELP’s argument. According to AELP, the First Amendment allows states to prohibit social media companies from censoring users, because social media websites are “open-access.” But newspapers are also “open-access,” because anyone can buy an advertisement. So, AELP’s argument necessarily implies that the First Amendment also allows states to prohibit newspapers from censoring advertisers.

Wrong. The Supreme Court explicitly said the opposite in PruneYard itself. And if the First Amendment means anything, it means that the government can’t tell newspapers what to print.

What’s the real difference between Miami Herald and PruneYard? It’s simple. Newspapers are in the speech business and shopping malls aren’t. The First Amendment says the government can’t force you to share someone else’s speech, but sometimes it can require you to tolerate speech you dislike. And which is social media more like? The business that is in the speech business, or a shopping mall where speech has nothing to do with its business?

It gets worse.

The brief repeatedly tries to couch these laws in terms pretending that these are anti-discrimination laws.

Amici file this brief to encourage the Court to preserve a traditional state power—barring unreasonable discrimination by private industry in the exercise of its business operations.

But that’s also wrong. These are not anti-discrimination laws. And as another law professor, Daphne Keller, has pointed out, those defending the laws in Florida and Texas have only recently pivoted to pretend they’re anti-discrimination laws by grasping at straws for a reason why these laws could be constitutional:

Discriminating against someone based on her race and discriminating against her based on her tweets are not the same thing. The Texas and Florida briefs blur the distinction between the two by conflating different meanings of the word “discrimination.” The states’ laws were enacted to stop platforms from restricting speech based on the message it conveys. Doing that is  “discrimination” in the most basic and literal sense: The platforms are making choices between different things, under rules that treat users differently based on what they say—much as the hosts of a lecture series might exclude speakers or audience members for disruptive or racist remarks. The states’ arguments equate this with the important and distinct issues addressed by civil rights laws. Those laws broadly prohibit discriminating against people based on who they are, like hotels or restaurants refusing to serve Black customers. 

The brief, weakly, tries to address this distinction, by claiming that there are cases that support bans on viewpoint discrimination. Except, they get it backwards. The bans on viewpoint discrimination are against the government engaging in viewpoint discrimination, not in forcing private platforms to host all speech.

The brief attempts to tap dance around these different meanings of both “discrimination” and “viewpoint discrimination” by pointing to three things: (1) SEC restrictions on refusing to print shareholder proposals in proxies, (2) the Packers and Stockyard Act’s anti-discrimination clauses, and (3) a short list of PruneYard-like cases all revolving around shopping malls.

However, none of these make any sense here. The shopping mall cases we’ve already explained above. They are different, and even if you accept the brief’s description of “open to all,” we’ve already shown how Miami Herald says the results are different for organizations in the speech business.

As for the Packers and Stockyard Act, that too, has nothing to do with speech. Indeed, the law professors appear to be misrepresenting the law entirely. The prohibitions on discrimination in the law have nothing to do with viewpoint discrimination and the intentions of the law are about preventing monopolies and unfair competition through things like favoring some individuals for who they are, not what they say.

Finally, the SEC’s restrictions are the only ones that are actually speech related, but are very narrowly tailored to a very specific scenario in a highly regulated industry, where a proxy statement may be the only way to get across shareholder proposals to a specific audience: other shareholders who will need to make decisions based on those proposals.

So, these are not the same thing. They misrepresent the law. They misrepresent what was said in these historical cases. They misrepresent discrimination law and what “viewpoint discrimination” means.

We’re disappointed by this brief, because law professors should know better. It’s one thing for crackpots like former professor John Eastman to make legal arguments grounded only in wishes and rainbows. It’s another thing entirely coming from respected legal scholars. We know they want the government to be able to regulate social media companies more aggressively. Maybe a superficially clever argument clouded their better judgment.

But law professors have a professional obligation to describe the law as it is, not as we want it to be. It’s fine to argue that the Supreme Court should reinterpret the First Amendment to allow more speech regulation. It’s not fine to pretend that’s already the law.

Brian L. Frye is the Spears-Gilbert Professor of Law at the University of Kentucky. Mike Masnick runs this site.

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Comments on “Social Media Isn’t A Shopping Mall”

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Anonymous Coward says:

You mean sites like TruthSocial will have to publish my screed? Awesome .. I will continually post the same comment over and over.

Think my user name will be TrumpClownCarBuggyBumpers. How much will I make off the law suit when I sue them for censoring my insane ridiculous bullshit?

I look forward to the end of polite discourse. /s

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re:

You mean sites like TruthSocial will have to publish my screed?

Therein lies the grand irony of bullshit like this: The people trying to change the law so they can force their speech on platforms that don’t welcome it never realize that the law can be used against the platforms that do welcome their speech. After all, to have a law target a “left-wing” platform but leave “right-wing” platforms alone would be a form of legal inequality and we can’t have that now can we. 😁

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

Conservatives are not allergic to people disagreeing with them.

Attempts by conservatives to foist their speech onto social media services what disagree with the idea that they need to host said speech⁠—and to justify the commandeering of property those conservatives don’t own to serve as a personal soapbox⁠—says otherwise.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:

Yes, actually you are.

You write laws to ban ideas other than yours.
You scream and complain if your religious laws also have to respect the religious freedoms of non christians.
The biggest names in right wing politics have all sued others for criticizing them.
You sign laws to hide from the public so they cannot criticize you.
You are trying to pass laws to make suing over speech easier.
Republican senators and presidential candidates literally run away instead of answering difficult questions.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:2

Remember what Toom1275 said above?

and thinking leads to not being republican.

So here’s a guy who admits to being Republican, and perforce admits to not thinking. Ergo, you could’ve stopped at “You cannot possibly think” and put a period right there. And you’d’ve been just as correct as pointing out the gales of laughter that are still ringing through the halls.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:3

So, Matthew, why do you hate the Jews so much you root for the Zionists?

Even the Jews are allowed to live any fucking where they want, why do you want them to go to Israel, where they’re not only not welcome, but also being terrible neighbors?

Why are you weaponizing the Holocaust to defame people who don’t agree with you? Do you really hate humanity that much just because we don’t deepthroat Trump, Putin and Xi?

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:

“Conservatives are not allergic to people disagreeing with them.”

There was no claim of medical issue, allergies can be very debilitating but I was unaware of any that result from disagreement, sounds more like a mental issue.

It is good to know that I will no longer be banned from social sites that tout their freedom of speech simply because I stated a fact or something.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:

What you don’t seem to understand is that we don’t care.

We know, we don’t care either. You’re assholes who lack the self-awareness to realize it. Not caring is irrelevant.

Conservatives are not allergic to people disagreeing with them.

The sooner you realize that you’re assholes, and that being an asshole is the problem, rather than some manufactured persecution complex, the sooner you can stop getting kicked off of social media for being one.

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Benjamin Jay Barber says:

Re: Re: Common Carrier

Google controls:
my passwords
my telephone number
my cellphone service
my email service
my domain names

Is google a “information content provider” or a “common carrier”?

Also google was just found guilty of antitrust, does anti-trust law also include “discrimination” prohibitions?

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Benjamin Jay Barber says:

Re: Re: Re:2

How can the government deem social media such a national security concern, that they have to try to stop tik tok because of Chinese “national security” concerns, and also embed government officials in all of the major tech companies for censorship?

Because they’re common carriers

Google even loans and transmits people’s money, how much more “common carrier” can you get than a literal licensed money transmitter?

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Benjamin Jay Barber says:

Re: Re: Re:2

So on one hand people in the government claim; that social media is so dangerous that we cant allow free enterprise, that misinformation is so important that there need to be federal officers and former federal officers embedded within the social media companies to monitor dangerous posts right? Isn’t that the entire premise of the CISA program itself that “social media” was under the prevue of federal cyber security response.

Yet on the other hand you want to reject the possibility that the same industry of national importance, such as was the case when the railroads were providing the key means of transportation and were also private companies, that those companies are cannot be deemed to be “common carriers” such that they have to serve all customers without distinction?

Google lost a lawsuit alleging that it was engaging in anti-competitive practices, and their first amendment freedom of association and contract was in fact constrained, similarly the legislature of Texas wants to create a common carrier burden on the social media companies that limit their ability of association and contract.

After all Google is literally in the money transmission business, in the public telecom business, advertising business, and so many vertical businesses that this anticompetitive condition was created in the first place.

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Toom1275 (profile) says:

PragerU’s claim that YouTube censored PragerU’s speech faces a formidable threshold hurdle: YouTube is a private entity. The Free Speech Clause of the First Amendment prohibits the government-not a private party-from abridging speech. See Halleck, 139 S.Ct. at 1928 (the Free Speech Clause ‘prohibits only governmental abridgment of speech,’ and ‘does not prohibit private abridgment of speech’); Hudgens v. NLRB, 424 U.S. 507, 513 (1976) (‘the constitutional guarantee of free speech is a guarantee only against abridgment by government, federal or state’). PragerU does not dispute that YouTube is a private entity that operates its platform without any state involvement.

These are not antiquated principles that have lost their vitality in the digital age. In Halleck the Supreme Court considered whether a private entity that operates a public access channel on a cable system is a state actor. 139 S. Ct. at 1926. The plaintiffs tested a theory that resembled PragerU’s approach, claiming that a private entity becomes a state actor through its ‘operation’ of the private property as ‘a public forum for speech.’ Id. at 1930. The Court rejected this argument. Such a rule would eviscerate the state action doctrine’s distinction between government and private entities because ‘all private property owners and private lessees who open their property for speech would be subject to First Amendment constraints.’ Id. at 1930?31. Instead, the Court reaffirmed that ‘merely hosting speech by others is not a traditional, exclusive public function and does not alone transform private entities into state actors subject to First Amendment constraints.’ Id. at 1930.

Importantly, private property does not ‘lose its private character merely because the public is generally invited to use it for designated purposes.’ Lloyd Corp. v. Tanner, 407 U.S. 551, 569 (1972). YouTube may be a paradigmatic public square on the Internet, but it is ‘not transformed’ into a state actor solely by ‘provid[ing] a forum for speech.’ Halleck, 129 S. Ct. at 1930, 1934.

The relevant function performed by YouTube-hosting speech on a private platform-is hardly ‘an activity that only governmental entities have traditionally performed.’ Halleck, 139 S.Ct. at 1930. Private parties like ‘[g]rocery stores’ and ‘[c]omedy clubs’ have ‘open[ed] their property for speech.’ Id. YouTube does not perform a public function by inviting public discourse on its property. ‘The Constitution by no means requires such an attenuated doctrine of dedication of private property to public use.’ Lloyd Corp., 407 U.S. at 569. Otherwise ‘every retail and service establishment in the country’ would be bound by constitutional norms. Cent. Hardware Co. v. NLRB, 407 U.S. 539, 547 (1972) (private parking lots do not become state actors just because they are open to the public).

That YouTube is ubiquitous does not alter our public function analysis. PragerU argues that the pervasiveness of YouTube binds it to the First Amendment because Marsh teaches that ‘[t]he more an owner, for his advantage, opens up his property for use by the public in general, the more do his rights become circumscribed by the ‘ constitutional rights of those who use it.’ 326 U.S. at 506. PragerU’s reliance on Marsh is not persuasive. In Marsh, the Court held that a private entity operating a company town is a state actor and must abide by the First Amendment. Id. at 505-08. But in Lloyd Corp. and Hudgens, the Court unequivocally confined Marsh’s holding to the unique and rare context of ‘company town[s]’ and other situations where the private actor ‘perform[s] the full spectrum of municipal powers.’…

YouTube does not fit the bill. Unlike the company town in Marsh, YouTube merely operates a platform for user-generated video content; it does not ‘perform[] all the necessary municipal functions,’ Flagg Bros., 436 U.S. at 159, nor does it operate a digital business district that has ‘all the characteristics of any other American town,’

Shifting gears slightly, PragerU posits that a private entity can be converted into a public forum if its property is opened up for public discourse. This theory finds no support in our precedent. As the Supreme Court has explained, to create a public forum, the government must intentionally open up the property to public discourse…. That YouTube is not owned, leased, or otherwise controlled by the government undermines PragerU’s public forum theory

PragerU’s attempt to foist a ‘public forum’ label on YouTube by claiming that YouTube declared itself a public forum also fails. YouTube’s representation that it is committed to freedom of expression, or a single statement made by its executive before a congressional committee that she considers YouTube to be a ‘neutral public fora,’ cannot somehow convert private property into a public forum. Whether a property is a public forum is not a matter of election by a private entity. We decline to subscribe to PragerU’s novel opt-in theory of the First Amendment.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:6

The ruling says that YouTube is a public square in terms of how people use it, but that does not make it a government entity subject to the 1st Amendment requirement not to abridge the free speech of its users.

Which, duh.

Large private generic speech platforms do not have a legal requirement not to censor, but as public squares in terms of how they’re used, they have a moral obligation to respect the free speech of their users and not censor them even though they’re allowed to.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:8

What does “afraid of consequences” mean? Surely consequences arise from speech being heard, not from speech being silenced?

The reason censors censor is because they’re afraid that if the silenced voices are heard, they will be believed. Those are the consequences that terrify the censors.

Strawb (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:9

You want to be able to say what you want, no matter what it is.

And even if what you want to say isn’t bullying, harassment or misinformation, you’re not the only one who has to fit into these ecosystems.

So believe all you want that the platforms have a moral obligation to stop moderating the speech on their sites. The rest of us will live in the real world where that is a stupid fucking idea because of the despicable people and nutjobs that are out there.

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Strawb (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:11

Censorship is not moderation. Censorship silences based on viewpoint, moderation silences based on form.

Social media moderate based on content, which sometimes includes viewpoints. If you spam “Jews are scum” on a site, that’s a viewpoint that will be moderated very quickly.

Free speech means that you will hear people and ideas that you don’t like.

In public, maybe. On private property, such as a social media site, the owners are free to moderate as they see fit, because that’s their free speech.
The same way restaurants get to decide what can be said(and done) in the confines of their businesses.

The left despises free speech because it exposes their lies.

I guess the left and the right have some common ground, then.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:5

An idiot is someone who takes an incomplete quote out of context thinking it proves something, then proceeds to quote a definition from a dictionary that proves that the first quote is incomplete and taken out of context while thinking it is a win.

It’s kinda fun seeing an idiot like you prove to everyone that you are an idiot.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re:

That ruling actually agrees with the position that YouTube, like other interactive web services, are not public squares in the legal sense and therefore are not legally obligated to carry all legal speech. If you weren’t trying to twist the interpretation of that ruling because it used the phrase “public square”, you would know that. But you were. So you don’t.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:

You really are an idiot. Whenever I say that the platforms are public squares, I mean it in just that way, and have said as much every single time – they are effective public squares, not legal ones, and therefore the platforms have the legal right to censor but the moral obligation not to.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:3

While I believe my opinions are correct (obviously, wise I would not hold them), I have no power to do anything but attempt to persuade. I understand that other people have different opinions and different priorities. That’s why we have culture wars.

Since I believe I am correct, I state my opinions as if they are facts. For example, you are an idiot.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4

I have no power to do anything but attempt to persuade.

Then stating that other people have obligations that they actually don’t because you say they do isn’t a fact⁠—it’s an opinion, and it’s a wrong one at that. You can say I have a moral obligation to live by the teachings of Jesus Christ, but unless you can produce a contract I signed that said I would live up to that obligation, your claim is patently false. We are obliged to live under the law, and when we violate the law, we are punished for our transgressions. You are not the law and you are sure as shit not God, so any “punishment” you want to inflict on anyone who dares to defy your expectations of who they should be and how they should act would most likely be illegal. Moreover, no one else has an obligation to live in a way that makes you happy⁠—which is exactly what you want when you try to foist upon others a “moral obligation” that doesn’t exist. Your morality is not objective, neither are your ideas about how other people should live, and you have no power⁠—especially not the power of God⁠—to make people behave how you demand they should.

I state my opinions as if they are facts.

You can state opinions, but that doesn’t make them facts. You can back up your opinions with facts, but that still doesn’t turn your subjective opinions into objective facts. I can say “the live-action Avatar: The Last Airbender series sucks ass”, but saying that doesn’t make it factually true. Your ideas on content moderation stand in the face of years of legislation and jurisprudence surrounding content moderation on the Internet and a couple centuries’ worth of First Amendment jurisprudcence. If you really think saying that social media services must live up to a moral obligation that you invented out of wholecloth, you’re not stating a fact⁠—you’re sharing a delusion, and I suggest you see a mental health professional before your delusions of grandeur and godhood lead you to hurt someone (including yourself).

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:5

You really are an idiot, aren’t you?

Everyone thinks the rich have a moral obligation to give to charity. Vegans think everyone has a moral obligation not to eat meat. Climate catastrophists think everyone has a moral obligation to stop using fossil fuels. Transists think that women have a moral obligation to let men into their bathrooms. Pro-lifers think that raped pregnant children should bear those babies.

It’s universal that people who have strong feelings about a subject think that everyone should behave in accordance with those feelings.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:6

Simplistic generalizations never tell the whole truth, and if you use generalizations without the caveat that it is generalizations we can be certain that the argument being made is disingenuous, especially in this instance were you are moving the goal-post in an effort to obfuscate the fact that you state your opinions as if they are fact.

So now I’m going to state my opinion about you in the same way you state your opinions: You are one stupid fucker.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:6

It’s universal that people who have strong feelings about a subject think that everyone should behave in accordance with those feelings.

And it’s universal that those people have no power or authority whatsoever to enforce their feelings and opinions and morality onto others. Besides, morality will always be subjective; if I can’t make people live by the seven fundamental tenets of The Satanic Temple, you can’t make people live by the idea that they should be forced⁠—by law or otherwise⁠—to host speech they don’t want to host.

Your entire schtick is about an attempt to enforce your morality onto others when you have no authority, no power, and no right to do that. You want sites like Twitter to host all legal speech⁠—especially your own⁠—but you don’t want the people who host those sites to be able to practice their own rights of speech and association. That’s why you keep referring to their moderation decisions as “censorship” and Techdirt’s moderation of your comments as “harassment”: Not only are you high on that DARVO shit, you actively want to restrict the rights of others so you can enjoy a mere privilege that you lost the chance to enjoy when you decided to be an asshole.

I keep comparing you to a rapist, and I don’t think you have the self-awareness to figure out why⁠—so I’ll spell it out for you. A rapist believes they’re entitled to something they’re not (someone’s body); you belive you’re entitled to something you’re not (the use of someone else’s property as your soapbox). A rapist views a victim’s body as property they should have the right to use without limit; you view websites you don’t own/operate as property you should have the right to use without limit. A rapist will refuse to take “no” for an answer when they’re denied sex; you refuse to take “no” for an answer when you’re asked to leave this site. At this point, I almost have to believe you’ve raped someone in your lifetime, because the comparison is way too on the nose.

Your morality is wholly subjective, has no bearing on the laws of Nature, and should never have any bearing on the laws of Man. Your personal beliefs do not, cannot, and should not dictate how other people act. Twitter, Techdirt, Facebook, a Mastodon instance, or literally any other website that you don’t own has no obligation⁠—moral, ethical, and especially legal⁠—to carry your speech; your expressed desire to endlessly harass the owners of those websites into compliance with your demands for their behavior makes you no better than a man who keeps harassing a woman who told him “no” until she finally says “yes” (or until he beats her into submission).

You have no authority over other people’s lives. You have no power to strip them of their autonomy and replace it with your requirements for their behavior. You are not God. If you believe otherwise, I suggest you seek professional help, for you will find no sympathy for your issues and no submission to your demands here.

Oh, and one more thing: I may be an idiot (jury’s still out on that one), but at least I’m not a fascist.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:7

Says the person who actively supports laws that force women to allow men into their private spaces and laws that require that schools conceal the mental illness of children from their parents.

You may fantasize about me all you like, but you are the one promoting actual evil, and you are not going to silence the voices telling you that.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:8

Says the person who actively supports laws that force women to allow men into their private spaces

The only person who supports laws about who can use certain public restrooms is you.

[Says the person who actively supports] laws that require that schools conceal the mental illness of children from their parents

A queer child may not feel comfortable coming out as queer to their parents⁠—the particulars of their queerness being largely irrelevant⁠—because the child believes doing so could cause their parents to kick them out of the house, force them into “conversion ‘therapy’ ”, beat them, or possibly even murder them. I support the idea that a queer child should be able to find an adult they can trust (in this context, a teacher), come out to them, talk with that adult about their queerness, and not expect to be ratted out because the law forced that teacher to out that child to their parents against the will of that child. I don’t expect you to understand that not every parent of a queer child actually loves their child after finding out they’re queer⁠—I expect you to show no sympathy for a beaten child and no remorse for contributing to the culture of anti-queer hatred that led to the death of Nex Benedict. (And before you say “the police said it wasn’t the beating that killed them”: (A) Never believe the cops unless they have the evidence to back up their statements, and (B) even if Nex died by suicide, it would’ve been because of the beating and all the bullying that led up to said beating that was inspired by the anti-queer rhetoric of Ryan Walters and Chaya Raichik, and that’s actually worse.)

you are the one promoting actual evil

Every accusation, a confession.

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Matthew M Bennett says:

Re: Re:

Because honestly, it’s not worth the time. I’ve gone through all of this line by line with him. He actually things section 230 protects publishers, despite saying the exact opposite. The coward edits out any replies that include his last name. If he “rebutts” you, any replies will be memory holed for 24 hors at least.

But he’s living in his own legal fantasy land. That is not how basically anyone else sees it.

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Strawb (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

Because honestly, it’s not worth the time.

Yet you keep commenting.

I’ve gone through all of this line by line with him.

And been proven wrong every single time.

He actually things section 230 protects publishers

Section 230 protects any website with user content or speech, and puts the onus of that content or speech on the person who wrote/posted it. There’s no distinction between “publishers” and “platforms” in the law, if that’s what you’re alluding to.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

Irrelevant. You would have the same right to decide not to host speech with which you disagree on your site/service as does the owner of Twitter. The owner of an interactive web service claiming that service is a “public square” wouldn’t make that service a legally recognized public square any more than merely opening such a service to the public would do the same.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re:

You do not get to silence criticism because you have gotten tired of being criticized.

This is where you started and stopped being correct.

As long as you speak in error, you should expect to be corrected, and your calling that being “harassed into submission” doesn’t change a thing.

Sure, Hyman.

When you keep saying the things the site owner has REPEATEDLY told you to stop saying? That’s harassment.

When you abuse anonymous posting after the siteowner has “binned” your comments? That’s harassment.

When you admit to behavior that got you banned from those fine Republican websites? That’s harassment.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:

When the site owner is wrong I tell him that. He does not like that, but he also wants to pretend to believe in free speech, so he does not actually silence me, but instead uses filters, flagging, and excoriation to try to get me to silence myself “voluntarily”.

People who argue against widely believed errors will often get banned by people who don’t want to hear the truth. That’s a misfeature of both left and right. Only a very small fraction of people support free speech.

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Rocky says:

Re: Re: Re:2

So if Mike get so fucking tired of your shit and stops allowing anonymous posting, you have then singlehandedly silenced everyone else who wanted to post anonymously.

The consequence of your behavior is that it limits the speech of others in the end, just like how every moderation rule instituted is the result of assholes like you who lack any kind of social aptitude and reason, ie assholes.

You talk about “moral obligations” while ignoring a very basic moral obligation, respect other people’s wishes when you are on their property. The size of the property doesn’t actually matter because it’s not your property and you are just a guest and yet you persists on taking a metaphorical shit on the floor.

Of course, you will never understand any of this even in the face of the overwhelming evidence that everyone thinks you are a fucking hateful loon. They don’t want you around, they don’t want to associate with you and they certainly don’t want to hear your stupid shit. In short, you have made yourself persona non grata everywhere and are likely responsible for new moderation rules here and there.

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Rocky says:

Re: Re: Re:4

As it was said, you don’t get it and you don’t understand the word no. And it’s people like you that threatens free speech for everyone else since your actions objectively limits free speech in the long run.

You have stated your dissent, everyone here have seen it repeatedly and told you to take a hike because no one here is going to change their mind seeing your drivel. You have long passed the point of being someone who voices his dissent, now you are just a harasser too stupid to understand you have outstayed your welcome while possibly scaring away new users.

And what is the solution to deal with harassers? You limit what people can do and say in an effort to get rid of the harassers – ie people like you, which ultimately affects everyone else in a negative way, like less opportunities for speech.

What kind of morals do you have when you abuse a system meant to let people post anonymously? Your weak excuse of “the owner lets me post anonymously” flies in the face of him asking you to leave.

Tell us, whose fault would it be if Mike stopped allowing anonymous postings here on TD because you didn’t understand something as simple as “you aren’t welcome here”?

Assholes always make the world worse for everyone else.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:5

Or you could just simply ignore my comments here. The reason these threads go on for so long is that you (collectively) continue to be wrong and insist on responding to me with errors over and over again.

If the site owner does not like seeing comments that contradict his beliefs, he can have them removed. It’s his choice to pretend to believe in freedom of speech and allow these comments to remain. It’s your choice to keep responding to them. You think I’m wrong and insist on telling me that. I think you’re wrong and insist on telling you that. That’s how free speech works. Free speech isn’t just for things you like to hear, and it doesn’t stop for things you are tired of hearing.

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Koby (profile) says:

AELP Understands Publishers vs Platforms

What’s the real difference between Miami Herald and PruneYard? It’s simple. Newspapers are in the speech business and shopping malls aren’t.

The Miami Herald, outside of its advertisement section, is a publisher. Whereas the Pruneyard established a platform.

Now, the pro-censorship advocates are attempting to label news outlets as a hybrid publisher/platform combination, in an attempt to transfer publisher rights over to a platform. We’re not fooled. We can distinguish between the content and advertising sections of a newspaper. And social media companies are all platform.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re:

Pruneyard established that very specific parts of a mall are what we can colloquially call “free speech zones”. It doesn’t establish that actual stores within the mall are such zones. The problem with trying to cite Pruneyard in re: social media services and other platforms for speech is that in any metaphorical comparison, social media services would be the actual stores and one’s Internet connection would be the “free speech zone”. Citing Pruneyard is more in line with upholding the principles of network neutrality than with trying to force speech onto social media services.

Speaking of which…

Yes or no, Koby: Do you believe the government should have the right to compel any interactive web service into hosting any third-party speech that it would otherwise refuse to host?

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Rocky says:

Re: Re:

Pruneyard established that very specific parts of a mall are what we can colloquially call “free speech zones”.

I believe it’s even narrower than that, because it doesn’t allow you to stand there with a megaphone saying whatever you want to passerby’s since you aren’t allowed to interfere/disturb other visitors to the mall or its businesses. I’m not even sure you are allowed to approach passerby’s considering how much they have narrowed Pruneyard down.

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That One Guy (profile) says:

Re: Re:

Citing Pruneyard is more in line with upholding the principles of network neutrality than with trying to force speech onto social media services.

Strange then how the very people that are so against the ability of social media to moderate the content on their private property are simultaneously so often vehemently against the idea of network neutrality, oft-times framing is as ‘government tyranny’ or similar.

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Koby (profile) says:

Re: Re:

The government already performs part of that, particularly that women and minorities cannot be discriminated against, and cannot be excluded from facilities, even if privately owned. I think nearly everyone is in favor of this, and that there is no 1st Amendment exception to the Civil Rights Act. The government can forbid exclusion. As far as the part where government controlling the “is allowed” portion, you have likely been an advocate for that portion for many years.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

The government already performs part of that

It doesn’t actually let people force their speech onto private property they don’t own, though. Like, even if a Walmart can’t kick out a Black man for being Black or a man, it can still kick him out for being a disruptive presence if he yells at customers/employees regardless of what he’s yelling.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:

particularly that women and minorities cannot be discriminated against, and cannot be excluded from facilities

See, the part you keep conveniently leaving out, is that they can be discriminated against – just not for being women or minorities. If a person takes a shit on the carpet, they are getting kicked out of the store regardless of what color skin they have (barring corruption). Your problem is that you’re the one who took the shit on the carpet and you’re pissed that the store doesn’t want you back. Suck it up.

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Koby (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2

See, the part you keep conveniently leaving out, is that they can be discriminated against – just not for being women or minorities.

That’s the Civil Rights Act as written currently; there is no constitutional amendment which would prevent additional exclusion from occurring. States are free to prevent exclusion today, the same as they were free to prevent exclusion 50+ years ago.

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Anonymous Coward says:

It is not “censoring”, it is censoring. The fact that the platforms have a constitutional right to censor doesn’t make that action be not censorship.

You claim that the attempt to stop censorship is an attempt to stop moderation because you know that moderation is palatable to most people, who think of it as stopping spam, off-topic conversation, or infecorous ranting and cursing and porn. But the last came about because people were angry that viewpoints were being censored.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: An unconstitutional rose by any other name

You claim that the attempt to stop censorship

Misleading premise. It is an attempt to stop removal of posts and users from social media sites by the respective social media sites’ own discretion (a constitutional right). That’s an attempt to stop moderation AKA compelled speech. At best, it is an attempt to outlaw voluntary censorship of users by social media sites i.e. stop social media sites from exercising a First Amendment right.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:

“The act of the censor is censorship, where they silence opinions on platforms they control based on viewpoint. The ability to speak elsewhere doesn’t matter, because it’s the act of silencing that’s the censorship.”

I am beginning to view such endless posting of the same trope as though it were graffiti. There are similarities between the brick and mortar problems with graffiti and websites that offer a comment section.

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Arianity says:

But newspapers don’t just publish articles, they also publish ads. And they’re generally happy to publish advertisements by anyone willing to pay. AELP insists that “Newspapers are exclusive publications; the public cannot, at any moment, publish their views in the New York Times.” Yes, they can. All they have to do is buy an ad.

That doesn’t seem true, at all? The NYT is probably not going to publish a Stormfront screed just because it’s submitted as an ad. While the standard is definitely lower, newspapers also vet and hold editorial discretion over what ads they’re willing to run. Indeed, the NYT has/had a “Standards of Advertising Acceptability” guideline for a long time. https://nytco-assets.nytimes.com/m/Advertising-Acceptability-Standards.pdf (That is an older version, but largely the same thing is still hosted on : https://advertising.nytimes.com/resources/ ). To quote: We are open to all points of view, but we are not an open platform… It also means setting a standard for ourselves: to not present our readers, viewers or listeners with ads that undermine our mission to seek the truth and help people understand the world.. There’s a bunch more limitations under “Our principles”.

You can plausibly argue that it fits the ‘open access’ definition given, but it is definitely not true to say the public can publish their views at any moment in the NYT.

As for the Packers and Stockyard Act, that too, has nothing to do with speech. Indeed, the law professors appear to be misrepresenting the law entirely. The prohibitions on discrimination in the law have nothing to do with viewpoint discrimination and the intentions of the law are about preventing monopolies and unfair competition through things like favoring some individuals for who they are, not what they say.

I mean, it has provisions related to deceptive practices/fraud (mainly 202(a): (a)Engage in or use any unfair, unjustly discriminatory, or deceptive practice or device;). That’s partially speech. Although stuff like fraud doesn’t enjoy full 1st amendment protections because of it’s proscribable content. But it seems closer to the SEC example.

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Strawb (profile) says:

Re:

You can plausibly argue that it fits the ‘open access’ definition given, but it is definitely not true to say the public can publish their views at any moment in the NYT.

An ad expresses a view on something, albeit usually implicitly. So it’s absolutely true that the public can publish their views at any moment in a newspaper.

Just because the newspaper won’t carry neo-nazi ads doesn’t make it less true.

Arianity says:

Re: Re:

An ad expresses a view on something, albeit usually implicitly. So it’s absolutely true that the public can publish their views at any moment in a newspaper.

I’m not saying the ad doesn’t express a view, but rather that the newspaper has editorial control over what views it’ll allow, even in ads. Whether you can get published at any moment in a newspaper depends if the newspaper wants to allow it. If they’re ok with it, you can get published at any moment. Hence my Stormfront example- their neo-Nazi views are not going to get published in the NYT, even in an ad.

They have looser standards than what they use for editorial content, sure, but there is still some level of editorial control going on there.

JSpitzen (profile) says:

Possible Fix?

I agree, 100%, with the authors and the consensus of those commenting that a website is not a shopping mall and that the moderation choices of the website owner are entitled to 1st Amendment protection. I’d like to speculate about ways to mitigate the harm if SCOTUS makes a contrary decision.

Surely a website could attach a comment to the objectionable post (objectionable in the view of the website moderation rules) saying “We would not have allowed this post but for the recent horrid SCOTUS decision.” Perhaps they could go further and partially hide the objectionable post in the same way that Techdirt hides comments “flagged by the community” behind a clickable caption. I would appreciate hearing the views of the Techdirt community as to whether, and how much, this type of approach would help.

That One Guy (profile) says:

Re:

I would appreciate hearing the views of the Techdirt community as to whether, and how much, this type of approach would help.

The first problem that comes to mind is that both of your suggestions depend on the kind of people that have their content flagged and/or removed to be operating in good faith, and that’s just not the case.

Any such commentary by the site would be decried as ‘censorship'(no I’m not kidding), and likewise any attempt to impose even the most slight obstacle to their ability to say anything they want without consequence would also be slammed as ‘censorship’, since to that lot ‘free speech’ is shorthand for consequence-free speech, but only for them and theirs.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re:

The obvious way to deal with this is the way Bluesky does it – you allow everyone to maintain their own individual blocklists and filters, and provide support for people to subscribe to each other’s blocks. Then it’s not the site censoring, just individuals deciding for themselves what to read.

But as usual, this is unsatisfying to the would-be censors, because they don’t want people choosing for themselves what to read. They want control, because they know that there are many people who will agree with the speech they want silenced.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

From what I understand, people like the way Bluesky handles blocks and client-side moderation. People can choose what content they want to see, and if a user blocks an asshole, the asshole’s replies to posts from that user also disappear from view⁠—which is pretty much what everyone wanted from Twitter’s blocking feature. A similar principle underlies the defederation functionality in Mastodon: The assholes retain their right to post whatever they want on their own instance, but they don’t get the right to force their speech onto instances that don’t want to see it.

I imagine that most people on Bluesky would prefer that Bluesky avoid becoming a Nazi bar. But if Bluesky wants to avoid a heavy-handed approach to top-down moderation, the moderation tools Bluesky gives to its users is the next best thing, because those tools can keep assholes out of the replies of a user who doesn’t want to inadvertently promote bullshit by having it in their replies. And blocking does nothing to actually stop the asshole from spewing their bullshit on Bluesky⁠—it only stops them from forcing their bullshit onto people who don’t want any part of it. And that means I can safely assume you’re going to come out against Bluesky’s moderation tools as “censorship” because it’s the “act of a censor” to not listen to someone else’s bullshit and block them from seeing/replying to your posts even if that blocking doesn’t prevent them from using Bluesky as a whole.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:2

It is censorship of a very weak kind to prevent other people from seeing what you say. If the hidden speech is off any importance, someone who can see it will report in it anyway, so it hardly matters.

Choosing what you can see and choosing not to see the writing of people you dislike or don’t respect is not censorship at all. Censorship is silencing others, not cutting your own reading list.

As far as I can see, Bluesky is doing it right. The main problem with block lists is that someone may say something you don’t like on one subject but may have you things to say on another, and blocking just shuts then out completely. But that balance is up to each user to decide, so that’s fine.

The past day or so, the discussion around the Lorenz / Raichik interview was useful in giving me a whole bunch of people to block all at once. People on Bluesky seem to be taking a “block, don’t argue” approach, so I’m following suit. Just imagine a camera pulling back and back, showing a million tiny echo chambers all talking past each other.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:4

As usual, you’re an idiot. When Florida acts to prevent students from reading Gender Queer by removing it from public school libraries, you consider that to be censorship. Preventing someone from reading a work is censorship, and that is true even when the work you’re censoring is your own.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5

As usual, you’re an idiot.

Every accusation, a confession.

But sure, I’ll play your game one more time. And based on the track record of whose comments get hidden vs. whose comments get Insightful badges, I’m pretty sure I’ll “win”. First, we have to go back⁠—to your previous reply, that is.

It is censorship of a very weak kind to prevent other people from seeing what you say.

It really isn’t, though. Much like being able to use social media in the first place, being able to see what someone else says on social media is a privilege. It isn’t “censorship” if someone, say, locks their account to prevent people who aren’t following them from seeing their posts⁠—unless you actually believe someone exercising their right to privacy is “censorship” (which I’m 99% sure that you do).

If the hidden speech is off any importance, someone who can see it will report in it anyway, so it hardly matters.

…which is why blocking isn’t censorship and to say otherwise is to display such profound stupidity that you’d be giving Chaya Raichik a run for her money in that department.

Choosing what you can see and choosing not to see the writing of people you dislike or don’t respect is not censorship at all.

And yet, when someone does that by blocking an asshole on social media, you call it “censorship”. I mean, you literally did that two sentences earlier.

The main problem with block lists is that someone may say something you don’t like on one subject but may have you things to say on another, and blocking just shuts then out completely.

Again: You called that censorship.

Just imagine a camera pulling back and back, showing a million tiny echo chambers all talking past each other.

Do you even know what an echo chamber is? Take the phrase literally and it means “a chamber in which the only speech heard is your own”, because your speech would echo off the walls. When I look at the social media of left-wingers, I see all kinds of disagreements and discussions about all sorts of issues with other leftists; there is no monolithic opinion beyond “we should improve society somewhat”, and even ostensible leftists can disagree on everything from the Israel/Palestine war to the limits of abortion laws. When I look at the social media of right-wingers, I see all kinds of disagreements and arguments about all sorts of issues with leftists⁠—but I don’t see that happening with other right-wingers. If any group of people have “echo chambers” (i.e., social media ecosystems where lockstep opinions are repeated ad nauseam and disagreement with orthodoxy is damn near forbidden), it is more likely to be conservatives/right-wingers.

When Florida acts to prevent students from reading Gender Queer by removing it from public school libraries, you consider that to be censorship.

Yes, I do. Gender Queer isn’t pornography, even if it does contain sexual content. If a student is mature enough to understand the content of the book and the context in which it’s presented, I see no reason to prevent that student from reading that book. While I won’t say this is a 1:1 comparison (because I’d be stupid in doing so), banning Gender Queer is little different than banning an age-appropriate book on sexual education because that book has sexual content: The clear intent of both books is not to merely titillate, but to expand both knowledge and perspective. But to conservatives (especially religious conservatives), knowledge is dangerous because it makes children more likely to “dishonor” their parents by, say, refusing to engage with the same hate that their parents grew up learning and spent their lives spreading. It’s part of the reason conservatives have spent so long trying to tear down not just higher education, but public education as a whole: They view children learning anything beyond religious orthodoxy as “dangerous”. That’s how they square away indoctrinating kids into conservative religious beliefs as “raising our children” and kids learning about stuff religion can’t/won’t teach them as “indoctrination”.

Preventing someone from reading a work is censorship

And yet, you’ve aligned yourself morally and philosophically with the kind of people who think banning books (but especially books that have queer people in them) is a good thing. You can decry those bans now that you’ve been called out on that, but you’ll still be on their side until you start decrying the ideology that leads them to believe those bans are a good thing⁠—and you’ll never do that because shitting all over that ideology means shitting all over your own anti-trans beliefs, and you’ll never be able to convince yourself that your hatred of trans people is wrong.

Hate is easy. Hate is simple. Hate is the coward’s way out of society. And I get it: Tolerating, accepting, and even loving other people is hard. But love is so much more rewarding than hate: In treating other people as people instead of subhuman filth, you open yourself up to new experiences and knowledge⁠—to life itself, really⁠—in a way that hate cannot and will never give you. When you seek out hate, you will fall into further hate, and you will eventually fall into an echo chamber where all you will ever have is hate⁠—not just for your chosen Repugnant Cultural Others, but eventually for all people…including yourself.

I can’t unlearn your hate for you. Only you can do that. I hope you might one day try, but I expect that you will stay in your anti-trans echo chamber⁠—which will only ever end with that hatred growing into anti-queerness in general. And you will eventually oppose my whole-ass queer-ass existence with the same kind of language (and actions) that led to the death of Nex Benedict.

Would you celebrate my death if I were killed for being queer? Because everything you’ve said up until now tells me that you would. You have never shown an ounce of empathy for the victims of anti-queer violence and an inkling of self-awareness about your own anti-queer rhetoric. You’re no better than a religious fundamentalist who calls for the state to execute queer people. And you’ll eventually repeat their rhetoric out loud after it echoes in your ears while you’re in your chamber. Pressure and time, Hyman Rosen⁠—that’s all it takes to turn a person into a beast, and in becoming a beast, you free yourself from the pain of having to be human…and the pain of caring about other people. The girls who beat Nex Benedict freed themselves from that particular pain; on a long enough timeline, you will join them.

Tick. Tock. Motherfucker.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:6

You really are an idiot, now an idiot at length.

As always, I don’t “align” myself with anyone. My opinions are my own. Some people may share some of those opinions, and hold others with which I disagree. None of that is my problem. If you don’t like what they say, I suggest you argue with them. If you want to criticize me for what they say, that won’t surprise me – you are wrong in every possible way, so why should this way be excluded?

It’s hilarious that you think I’ve changed what I say because you think you have “called” me on something. My opinions have stayed pretty much the same ever since I’ve started posting here. Just because you hallucinate imaginary versions of me who say whatever you want them to say, it doesn’t change what I actually say.

Blocking someone so that you cannot see what they say is not censorship. Blocking someone so that they cannot see what you say is censorship, but a mild form of it. Preventing someone from responding to you is censorship of a more significant sort. The ability to quote-respond provided by X and Bluesky is a good middle ground – you may keep someone you dislike off your own conversational thread, but they can pen a response available for others to read separately.

Censorship is what a censor does. Someone who tries to prevent others from reading or writing something on a platform they control is a censor, regardless of what the censored are able to do elsewhere. No amount of your insisting otherwise is going to change that.
https://firstamendment.mtsu.edu/article/censorship/

My views on censorship are neutral as regards left or right. The desire to silence opposition is, alas, universal. Free speech has very few friends.

I don’t know why you’re trying to convince me that removing Gender Queer from libraries is censorship. Of course it’s censorship. I would tell you again that it is also censorship for Amazon to refuse to sell When Harry Became Sally, but you’re too dimwitted to understand that the same principle is involved. You don’t care about censorship, you just don’t want your ideas to be silenced and you want to silence ideas you hate.

And speaking of hate, the reason you want to construe my beliefs as hate is because then you don’t have to confront the notion that you believe in lies. Copernicus wasn’t expressing hatred when he said the Earth revolved around the Sun, just truth. Sex is immutable and defined by the body. Crime statistics are what they are. Test statistics are what they are. But you cannot bear the truth. Too bad.

The one place where I do have true, abiding hate is for the Palestinians who chose to commit a massacre in Israel and for the filth who cheer for the murder, rape, and kidnapping of Jews. No matter how many Palestinians are killed in the Israeli response, including civilians, including children, I do not have an ounce of sympathy or remorse. They have the choice at every moment to unconditionally surrender, return the hostages, and let Israel destroy the infrastructure they have built (using aid money) to attack Israel, and the Israeli attacks on Gaza would stop immediately. If they choose to continue fighting, they must believe that they will gain more from that than from surrender, and if so, let them die by the thousands.

I would not be happy to see you killed for being gay, but I would chortle if I read about your death in the Darwin Awards, which, given your idiocy, is much more likely. As for Nex Benedict, bullying has been an unfortunate fact of life for lots of people. Jewish kids growing up in Brooklyn had the similar experience of occasionally getting beaten up by gangs of Christians. What happened to Nex is tragic and the people who did it should be severely punished, even executed. But an important thing to remember is that just because someone is beaten for their beliefs, it doesn’t make their beliefs true. Nex Benedict was a girl. There is no such thing as being non-binary.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:6

I don’t align myself with anyone. My opinions are my own. Some people may share some of those opinions, and hold others with which I disagree. None of that is my problem. If you don’t like what they say, I suggest you argue with them. If you want to criticize me for what they say, that won’t surprise me – you are wrong in every possible way, so why should this way be excluded?

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:6

It’s hilarious that you think I’ve changed what I say because you think you have “called” me on something. My opinions have stayed pretty much the same ever since I’ve started posting here. Just because you hallucinate imaginary versions of me who say whatever you want them to say, it doesn’t change what I actually say.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:6

Blocking someone so that you cannot see what they say is not censorship. Blocking someone so that they cannot see what you say is censorship, but a mild form of it. Preventing someone from responding to you is censorship of a more significant sort. The ability to quote-respond provided by X and Bluesky is a good middle ground – you may keep someone you dislike off your own conversational thread, but they can pen a response available for others to read separately.

Censorship is what a censor does. Someone who tries to prevent others from reading or writing something on a platform they control is a censor, regardless of what the censored are able to do elsewhere. No amount of your insisting otherwise is going to change that.
https://firstamendment.mtsu.edu/article/censorship/

My views on censorship are neutral as regards left or right. The desire to silence opposition is, alas, universal. Free speech has very few friends.

I don’t know why you’re trying to convince me that removing Gender Queer from libraries is censorship. Of course it’s censorship. I would tell you again that it is also censorship for Amazon to refuse to sell When Harry Became Sally, but you’re too dimwitted to understand that the same principle is involved. You don’t care about censorship, you just don’t want your ideas to be silenced and you want to silence ideas you hate.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:6

And speaking of hate, the reason you want to construe my beliefs as hate is because then you don’t have to confront the notion that you believe in lies. Copernicus wasn’t expressing hatred when he said the Earth revolved around the Sun, just truth. Sex is immutable and defined by the body. Crime statistics are what they are. Test statistics are what they are. But you cannot bear the truth. Too bad.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:6

The one place where I do have true, abiding hate is for those who chose to commit a massacre and for those who celebrate them. No matter how many are killed in the response, including civilians and children, I do not have an ounce of sympathy or remorse. They have the choice at every moment to stop fighting without condition, return those they have taken, and let their aid-built war infrastructure be destroyed. Then the attacks on them would stop immediately. If they choose to continue fighting, they must believe that they will gain more from that than from stopping, and if so, let them die by the thousands.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:6

Bullying has been an unfortunate fact of life for lots of people, including my co-religionists growing up in Brooklyn. What happened is tragic and the people who did it should be severely punished, even executed if the crime warrants. But an important thing to remember is that just because someone is beaten for their beliefs, it doesn’t make their beliefs true. She was only ever a girl.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:6

Well, that was a pain, but nevertheless, I persisted. I tried responding in one long message but something seemed to be tickling the filters, so I broke it up and I tried to avoid some words and I eventually got all the pieces through.

Looks like the site owner’s pretense of being committed to free speech is wearing thinner and thinner.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7

Awww, is the poor widdle baby upset that both he and his speech isn’t welcome somewhere that he can’t control? Does the baby need his diaper changed?

Fuck off, Hyman. You’re morally and philosophically aligned with violent anti-queer fascists who want to ban books (if not burn them), ban queer people from public existence (at a bare minimum), and squash any possibility of dissent by using the law to force their speech onto platforms that already told them to fuck off. You can deny direct connections all you want, but that is irrelevant⁠—you espouse their rhetoric, which is enough to connect you with their ideology. And on a long enough timeline, you will in fact join them in their open and expressed desire to commit the same kind of violence against queer people that was committed against (and led to the death of) Nex Benedict. You cannot escape your fate⁠—and your fate is to become another Chaya Raichik or Ryan Walters: always willing to espouse anti-queer rhetoric and willing to point out targets, but similarly unwilling to accept the consequences of that rhetoric when anti-queer violence inevitably happens.

You are a stochastic terrorist, a fascist, and an enemy of all queer people. You are, effectively, a Republican⁠—and you made yourself that way. But I don’t expect you to give up your hatred of trans people. I actually expect you to cheer for their eradication (even if only in private) in the same way the people with whom you share an ideology of hate and violence will openly celebrate the deaths of trans people regardless of how they die. Your misery and hate will consume your heart and soul; you will die thinking you could’ve done more to spread that misery and hate even further.

Do you have the guts to actually ask yourself why you buy so easily into hatred, why you allow yourself to be led around on a leash by conservatives, and why you never stop to consider the humanity of anyone who conservatives demand you treat as a Repugnant Cultural Other? Or will you walk nothing but the easy path and spread nothing but misery and hate, even as that hate rots away at your soul and makes you an inherently worse person? The choice is yours, Hyman:

Change your heart or die.

This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:8

Ooh, that sounds like a death threat! Which is not surprising, of course. It’s obvious that you are the one who would commit murder if you thought you could get away with it, and eventually you won’t even care about that, and we’ll see reports of you being shot down like a dog in the street by police responding to your attempt to kill the people who refuse to countenance your lies, whom you hate so much.

Gay people are fine. (Go see Drive-Away Dolls if you haven’t yet – gloriously fun movie.) Other “queer” people believe incorrect things about themselves, but are also fine as long as they don’t impose on people and spaces where they don’t belong.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:9

The omly excuse you haven’t been so vile on homosexuals is because the courts forced you to do so, Hyman.

Your comment history before you abused anonymous posting shows you as much.

And in any case, assuming you’re Jewish (which I don’t, you’ve lied enough times to disconvince me), why are you weaponizing the Holocaust to be racist towards Arabs and other minorities?

After all, you appear to be the sort of person who isn’t welcome anywhere, Republican or otherwise. After all, by your own admission, you were banned from those Republican websites, presumably for the same ban-dodging harassment you probobly exhibited on those sites.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

It’s not exactly a treat for me to have to solve a burr puzzle trying to figure out what it is your filters want to eliminate.

It’s not meant to be. It’s a message: “You’re not welcome here, so leave.”

I expect that if letting end-users guide moderation actually succeeds, you will come to hate it precisely because people like me won’t be silenced everywhere.

Sure, you won’t be silenced⁠—but you won’t be interacting with too many people because they’ll be blocking you after you harass them, dehumanize queer people, and generally do everything it is that got you kicked off so many other social media services. All you’ll have is an empty little echo chamber where the only voice you hear is your own, and you’ll have no one to blame for that but yourself.

Also: People blocking you isn’t censorship, you’re still an anti-queer asshole despite any denials otherwise, and you still have the entitlement of a serial rapist. Please fuck off, then fuck off some more, and when you get done fucking off all the way, fuck off even further than that.

Anonymous Coward says:

“Censorship is the act of silencing.”

Ok, fine. You get to write and use your own dictionary. Not sure how this will benefit you or others due to the obvious confusion over wtf you are talking about. It changes nothing however. Dog whistle slang language is sure sign to others about who you are and probably should avoid.

I would say “Enjoy your peace and quiet.” but that is not what you are interested in doing. Chaos is the order of biz with the Greedy Old Putin party.

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