You Can’t Wish Away The 1st Amendment To Mandate Age Verification
from the the-1st-amendment-is-not-that-flexible dept
So, we’ve been talking a lot about age verification of late, as governments around the world have all (with the exception of Australia?!?) seemed to settle on that as a solution to “the problem” of the internet (exactly what that problem is they cannot quite identify, but they’re pretty sure there is one). Of course, as we’ve explained time and time again, age verification creates all sorts of problems, including undermining both privacy and speech rights.
That’s why it was little surprise to us (though we warned the politicians pushing these bills) that a series of age verification bills have recently been found to be easily and clearly unconstitutional under the 1st Amendment. And it seems likely that other such bills will soon meet a similar fate.
David French, who recently became a NY Times columnist and is a long term free speech defender/constitutional litigator, has apparently chosen as his weird hill to die on, that the 1st Amendment should not stop age verification laws. While there are many, many things that I disagree with French on, historically, he’s been pretty good on internet speech issues. So it’s a little weird that he’s so focused on undermining the 1st Amendment over his own views regarding adult content.
Before the recent set of rulings reaffirming that these laws violate the 1st Amendment, French had suggested that age verification laws around adult content should be found to be constitutional. But, now that multiple courts have ruled otherwise, French took to the pages of the NY Times to argue that courts are misreading longstanding 1st Amendment precedents and that we should be able to mandate age verification and legally block kids from seeing adult content online.
So why not bring our offline doctrines to the online world? If we can impose age limits and age verification offline, we can online as well. If we can zone adult establishments away from kids offline, we can online as well. And if we do these things, we can improve the virtual world for our children without violating the fundamental rights of adults.
The underlying argument is that the precedential rulings in Reno v. ACLU and Ashcroft v. ACLU (the cases that killed as unconstitutional two earlier attempts to lock up the internet for kids: the Communications Decency Act and the Child Online Protection Act) were narrower than everyone believes, and were based on the state of technology at the time, rather than where it is today:
Our nation tried this before. In 1996, Congress passed the Communications Decency Act, which — among other things — criminalized the “knowing” transmission of “obscene or indecent” material online to minors. In 1997, however, the Supreme Court struck down the act’s age limits in Reno v. A.C.L.U., relying in part on a lower court finding that there “is no effective way to determine the identity or the age of a user who is accessing material through email, mail exploders, newsgroups or chat rooms.”
The entire opinion is like opening an internet time capsule. The virtual world was so new that the court spent a considerable amount of time explaining what the World Wide Web — when was the last time you heard that phrase? — even was. The internet was so new and the technology so comparatively primitive that the high court, citing a U.S. District Court finding, observed in its opinion that “credit card verification was ‘effectively unavailable to a substantial number of internet content providers.’”
Indeed, critical to the Supreme Court’s opinion was the lower court’s finding “that at the time of trial existing technology did not include any effective method for a sender to prevent minors from obtaining access to its communications on the internet without also denying access to adults.”
In 1998, Congress tried again, passing the Child Online Protection Act, but in 2004 a closely divided Supreme Court blocked enforcement. Its decision was based in part on the naïve belief that blocking and filtering technologies were “less restrictive alternatives” to the law. But time has demonstrated that blocking and filtering aren’t “less restrictive”; they’re wholly inadequate.
As French concludes, with more modern age verification technology, those precedents suggest that if the tech is better, than the concerns in those cases no longer apply, and the laws can be constitutional:
Thus, our nation’s challenge is more technical than constitutional. The best way to understand the court’s old precedents regarding online age verification to get access to pornography is not that it said “no” but rather that it said “not yet.” But now is the time, the need is clear, and the technology is ready. Congress should try once again to clean up the internet the way cities cleaned up their red-light districts. The law must do what it can to restrict access to pornography for children online.
There’s just one of (actually) many problems with this. It’s not true. It’s not true that the earlier precedents were that limited, and it’s not true that today’s “technology is ready.”
Thankfully, 1st Amendment lawyer Ari Cohn has a pretty thorough response to French that is mandatory reading if you found French’s argument compelling.
The 1st Amendment, and the key precedents around it, are not nearly as malleable as French believes, Cohn notes.
French’s thesis can be distilled to two basic arguments: first, there is no constitutional right to “convenient pornography, and second, that established precedent declaring government-mandated age verification unconstitutional is “outdated.” And so, he concludes, the problem is “more technical than constitutional.” But those arguments, and his conclusion, couldn’t be farther from the truth.
Reducing the controversy to one about “convenient pornography” grossly minimizes the First Amendment issues at stake. Like it or not, pornography—and adults’ ability to access it—is constitutionally protected. So despite this attempt to otherize it, what we are talking about is speech. And speech does not become any less speech merely because some people find it “icky” or morally questionable.
The key bit, and perhaps the most important part, is that French’s claim of moving “offline doctrines” into the “online world,” seems to involve him misunderstanding “offline doctrines.”
French points to “ID requirements for strip clubs and other adult establishments,” arguing that we already require some loss of anonymity to access adult materials offline. Maybe so. But first, few if any laws explicitly require checking IDs—establishments do so voluntarily to avoid potential liability from providing entrance or materials to minors.
More importantly, there is a world of difference between a quick glance at an ID to check date of birth, and uploading identity documents to the internet that create a record of a user’s access.
Online data about us is collected, stored, shared, sold, and used at a galactic level. If anything, the chilling effect of age verification is significantly worse than it was 20 years ago. The effect of creating that kind of digital trail is several orders of magnitude greater than handing over an ID to a bouncer or store clerk—who likely could not remember your name seconds after handing it back.
Comparison of those two drastically different scenarios is reminiscent of the government’s argument in the door-to-door canvassing case: that canvassers necessarily reveal part of their identity by simply showing up at someone’s doorstep, perhaps someone who already knows them. The Supreme Court forcefully rejected that argument, finding that it did not mitigate the constitutional concerns.
Furthermore, in the few cases French can point to where “offline doctrine” has limited children’s access to adult content, as Cohn notes, those laws don’t chill 1st Amendment rights:
… having to travel a little farther to reach a business does not chill a patron’s First Amendment rights; compelling adults to sacrifice their anonymity before accessing disfavored content plainly does.
As for the ruling in Reno that French suggests is obsolete? Cohn points out that French is really annoyed about the facts, not the legal standards:
The principles laid out in Reno remain sound: the First Amendment protects online speech the same as offline speech, and any content-based restrictions must satisfy strict scrutiny—that is, the law must be narrowly tailored to serve a compelling government interest, and must be the least restrictive means of accomplishing the government’s goal. Far from being outdated, this remains the analytical approach the court uses to assess any content-based speech regulation.
French’s real issue is with the facts and evidence presented in Reno. But Reno has never precluded arguing that new facts and circumstances militate a different outcome; it simply held that on the record before the court, the law was unconstitutional. The question is not whether Reno should be revisited, but rather whether these new laws, under new facts, can satisfy the relatively routine constitutional analysis that the Reno court applied.
As for the idea that modern credit card technology changes the ballgame by making age verification effective, Cohn breaks that down as well:
French argues that because “secure credit card use and age verification are practically ubiquitous,” we have evolved past Reno’s assessment that credit card verification is “effectively unavailable.” In doing so, he misses the true meaning of “effectively unavailable.” Reno, and thecases that followed, found that credit card age verification failed to render the law “narrowly tailored” because it doesn’t actually verify age.
And nothing has changed in that respect. Neither entering a credit card nor uploading a picture of an ID actually verifies that it is that person who has provided the identity information. It’s just as easy to borrow an older sibling’s ID as it is to borrow a parent’s credit card. And while there are new forms of age verification that utilize selfies or video, a quick Google search turns up countless pages on fooling such systems using free, easy-to-use software. Whatever the advances in technology since 2008, they have not yet solved this fatal problem.
Reno and its progeny also held that parental controls and content filtering were less restrictive alternatives than age verification. French argues that we have now learned they are “wholly inadequate.”
But is that so? French doesn’t provide a basis for this claim.
And, in fact, Judge Ezra noted that Texas’ own studies tended to show that content filtering and parental controls would be more effective, and better tailored, than age verification.
Perhaps French believes such measures are inadequate because parents lack the knowledge and ability to implement them. But that does not allow the government to sidestep them as a less restrictive means: “A court should not assume a plausible, less restrictive alternative would be ineffective; and a court should not presume parents, given full information, will fail to act.”
There’s a lot more in Cohn’s analysis, but it saves me from having to do a similar breakdown myself.
The 1st Amendment still applies, and as courts in Texas and Arkansas (and hopefully soon in California) have rightly found, these laws do not get anywhere close to passing the standards required to get around the 1st Amendment.
Filed Under: 1st amendment, adult content, age verification, ari cohn, david french, free speech, pornography, protect the children


Comments on “You Can’t Wish Away The 1st Amendment To Mandate Age Verification”
This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it.
Come on now
“Oh it’s hard” is not an excuse to completely ignore the need for age verification on the internet. The answer is to pass well written laws, not “no verification because 1st amendment”.
Re:
“Well-written laws” do not stop people from lying about their age on the internet.
Re:
“the need for age verification on the internet.”
Please elucidate.
The entire Internet? Why?
I assume your comment is addressing only adult portions of “The Internet” and age verification is to ensure minors are not getting access.
What happened to parents monitoring the activities of their children?
Are you asking for a Nanny State to take care of your offspring? Cause many tax payers might object to that, right?
There is no need for age verification on the internet.
Re:
Your completely ignoring the points that:
Age verification simply doesn’t work, no matter how you spin it:
Do I have to go on? There is of course device-level verification, as Mindgeek and such want, but I honestly don’t know how that would work (would you just set a flag when the person becomes an adult, asking them when they’re setting up the device? Would you store the date of birth or date of adulthood or both? What happens if it isn’t the minor who’s setting up the device but someone else — do you then require that person to also have the minor’s date of birth? How do you prevent someone from giving a fake date of birth/date of adulthood?) A digital ID system (might) solve a lot of these issues, but considering how badly most governments are at implementing a correct digital ID system (just look at Australia and how horrifically bad they fucked up their digital driver’s license) I wouldn’t rely too heavily on that working out all that well.
Re:
The porn “industry”, again, would like to remind you that it’s already tried age verification in the 90s.
No, it didn’t work.
Re:
Please precisely define “well-written law” as it applies to this situation. I’d really like an example that shows that it’s possible. It’s easy to write “well-written law;” it’s damn difficult to actually write one, and there are very few, if any, on the books. Our courts spend an egregious amount of time trying to figure out what many of our laws mean.
Re:
Alright, you go to the drawing board. Think up an idea that checks all these boxes:
Come back when you’ve thought of a solution. I think you’ll find your ‘nerd harder’ line of thought much less feasible.
Re: Re:
Shouldn’t we also require that a law does something that’s remotely worth doing? The idea that kids can be harmed by seeing or reading something (which poses no trouble to adults) is dubious at best. It’s something that’s long been refuted by librarians, who generally do not restrict what children can view or check out. Sure, there were excited whispers for a week or two when we found out my high-school library stocked Playboy, and then we went back to not really caring.
There’s always talk about potential harms. Well, kids have had access to this stuff since the 1970s or earlier, so by now we should know, right? Who, specifically, has been harmed, and would’ve been “protected” by such a law?
Re: Re:
I’ll add two more boxes:
7) Can not be weaponized to stifle speech based on the speaker’s political persuasion. (That, too, is a potential risk, and ties in with #1 and #4.)
8) Does not risk creating a chilling effect on speech, as Internet users may perceive that the law could allow the government to know what websites they access through the identification document or that their information may be vulnerable to theft in a cyberattack.
Re: Re:
Re: Re:
Add in, does not make following a link a pain by requiring frequent age validation without requiring the use of a universal cookie which enables accurate tracking of all Internet use. Note the existence of such a cookie means it is available to all web sites, and not just those that need to carry out age verification.
Re:
The only meme you need to remember:
On The Internet, No One Knows You Are A Minor
I double-dog dare you to find a valid error in that meme. Not an emotional one, but a factual one. We’re all waiting…..
Re: Every bloody time I swear
… said the person posting anonymously.
Re:
“The answer is to pass well written laws”
OK, define the law you are thinking of here. Difficulty, you have to address the real-world problems that stop it from realistically happening at the moment. At the bare minimum, you have to:
There’s way more issues to think of, but if you can come up with a suggestion that at least deals with the above then maybe there’s a conversation.
Re:
“Oh it’s hard” is not an excuse to completely ignore the need for age verification on the internet.
Well if complexity isn’t an excuse, why not have the parents who provide the Internet to their children do it?
I’m not interested in co-parenting someone else’s bastards because the parents are unable or unwilling to do it. They made the kids, let them monitor their activities, like parents would be expected to do.
They already get tax cuts for having kids – if I have to go through age verification because they’re too lazy to be parents, I would expect to be on the receiving end of that tax cut instead of them.
Re:
There’s always the Al Lowe age-verification test. You know, like in Leisure Suit Larry….
Offline, there’s an adult at the door checking ids. Online, there are the parents treating computers and smartphones like babysitters.
This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it.
Re:
This is true. I’ve been running a scam website that has been stealing credit cards from gullible children for years. Parents must be more involved in what their children are doing so that they don’t fall prey to people like me, who steal their parents’ money.
Re: Re:
hi low life who can’t get a actual job
This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it.
Re: Re: Re:
I do have a job. It’s stealing credit cards.
Re: Re: Re:2
that’s not a real job
Re: Re: Re:2
In all honesty, admitting to actual crines is a new low, even ironically.
Re: Re:
Oh so you work for Roblox,
Re: Re: Re:
I haven’t seen someone get burned this bad since the last time I watched A Nightmare on Elm Street.
This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it.
Re: Re: Re:2
I’m sorry to hear you’ve been unable to sexually satisfy your goat recently, Mr. Stone.
Re: Re: Re:3
If this is what you think of as a burn, you’re better off playing with matches next to a gas pump.
Re:
That sounds less like a tech issue and more like a parenting issue.
Re:
Offline, the bouncer doesn’t hold onto your ID, and in the extremely rare case they do, it’s returned to you at the end of your visit.
Online, though… that metadata is stored SOMEWHERE on their server (or on a cookie on your computer, which is… easily accessible).
Now, do you see the very obvious difference?
Ponts for David French to consider.
First there is the difference between controlling entry to a physical location, and a site logon opening the door.
Secondly, with physical door control, the bouncers only check age if the person seeking entry looks to on the young side.
Thirdly, bouncers do not make or crate records about who entered and who was turned away.
Also, age restrictions are effective where they control entry to a promises, and much less effective where they control sales. Age checks at logon only check the age of the person logging on, and they can let somebody else through the door. Further, unless you become very intrusive, like demanding web cam use for logon, age verification at logon on checks that the credentials match a person that meets the age requirement, and not who is presenting those credentials.
Re:
Why not both? Why not limit online porn access to physical locations with a bouncer?
… what? Why are you looking at me like that?
As a parent, I have an idea: be a parent. First of all, when your child is young, exert control over what your child can access. Don’t give your child unsupervised time online. As your child grows up, he or she will get more sophisticated and start to find things on his or her own. It’s inevitable: children at some point need to learn how to use technology and explore the information space to learn and grow. Give your child as much autonomy as he or she can handle and talk to your child about sex, violence, etc. and explain how the world works. This approach has worked well for me.
What also worked well for me was defeating every single technological restriction imposed on my by parents and school. I honestly learned a lot by breaking these tools and it gave me a healthy disdain for overbearing ninnies like the ones pushing for age verification laws online.
Yeah, about that. How did that work out?
Crappily? Yeah, I thought so. So congress should do a similar slipshod effort? Okay, then.
Re:
(Re-phrased to remove misdirection and misleading bullshit.)
Haven’t they already tried their damnedest to throw the internet under the bus? And they keep trying, every month or two. Along with State governments that also repeatedly demonstrate ample skill in ignoring the First Amendment.
Christ Almighty, French, get your head out of your ass and quit looking through your glass belly-button, it’s distorting your vision something fierce.
This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it.
Very Simple
The problem is that kids are accessing adult content, including obscenity and pornography. Parents do not want their children exposed to this material. Acting like you don’t know what the problem is, is very disingenuous. You verbally trip over the problem layer in the writeup.
Re:
If parents don’t like something, they should parent, as I describe here. I’m sure parents also don’t want their little kids drinking drain cleaner or crossing busy roads by themselves. Should we require drain cleaner and crosswalks to be age-restricted? Or should we expect parents to take appropriate measures to keep their little shits out of trouble and teach them age-appropriately so they can grow up to be responsible and autonomous?
Re:
Design an online age verification system that actually works and which does not totally destroy every ones privacy and anonymity In other words will you identify yourself, and leave a web cam on for every web site you visit. (Note, if the web cam is on, you can be identified).
Re:
As opposed to what, working in a factory with little to no worker protection? Because your side wants to use children as workers.
So parents should parent. Not leave it to either a Democrat or Republican to do it for them.
Every accusation a confession. I suppose it takes one to know one, and Tim Cushing isn’t as disingenious as you.
This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it.
Re: Re:
Is Tim ghostwriting for MM now? Or are you saying that Tim is disingenuous, but I’ve outdone him?
Re: Re: Re:
I’m saying that you, Koby, are the disingenious Nazi here.
Re: Not simple at all
I bet some of that adult content includes content about divorce, domestic abuse, transgender issues, birth control, body image health issues, and so on. It’s not all “obscenity” that people want to legislate out of the world.
Reasonable people disagree about the realms of information that should be restricted, and the maturity and age where access should be allowed. The parents (when available and relevant) are the ones best qualified to make these decisions. Inflexible laws are the least qualified to make these decisions.
This is not a simple problem. I will remind you once again of the H. L. Mencken quote on complex problems.
Re: Re:
As proven by numerous stories over the years, filters that mean to block out porn sites can also ding sites with educational content that happen to contain filter-tripping keywords. (You can’t very well learn about human anatomy without learning about breasts, after all.) No filter is foolproof and no filter can deterimine what content is “good” or “bad” without direct human input.
Re: Re: Re:
Plus of there is the problem of the tits I watch outside my window most days, blue tits, great tits and coal tits.
Re: Re: Re:2
And don’t forget about all the wonderful melons in the world.
Re: Re: Re:3
And coconuts!
Re: Re: Re:4
And the Grand Tetons!
Re: Re: Re:3
I try to search for titmouse, booby and titpecker, and the safety filter blocks the Audubon Society.
Re: Re: Re:
Plus, the tendency for people to bypass filters with euphemisms. Are grocery stores and site about gardening going to be blocked because the eggplant emoji gained a different colloquial meaning in recent years?
Re:
And your issue is that the article is about the problems in trying to solve the problem you’re talking about in a “magic bullet” way, which does not and will never exist. But please, feel free to offer one that you think will actually work as intended with no side effects such as “trampling on free speech”.
This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it.
Re: Re:
I think all pornography should be outlawed, even for adults.
Besides how it harms children, porn encourages non-procreative sex, abortion, human-trafficking, the objectification and exploitation of women (who should instead be honoured and treasured as mothers and homemakers), and it can be connected to the rise of sexually transmitted diseases.
Re: Re: Re:
And as soon as you have the political clout to do that without being dragged into the middle of a city and strung up by your feet while people throw sharp objects at you until you die, you go right ahead and live your dream.
Re: Re: Re:
I’m gonna need citations for that, chief, and I know porn doesn’t actually harm minors outside of desensitization, which might actually be a good thing.
So we know your stance on prostitution then, good.
[citation needed], since it’s known that education and women knowing they have RIGHTS is leading the drive for abortion, and that’s a GOOD THING.
[citation needed], and btw, porn unions exist. At least in the USA.
And no, you are not allowed to bring in other countries.
[citation needed again], and I am at least acquainted with taht claim and its evidence…
I bet you fucking love the overtunring of Roe vs Wade, huh.
[citation very fucking needed]
Re: Re: Re:
ok right wing loser
Re: Re: Re:
“I think all pornography should be outlawed, even for adults.”
I’ve good news for you then .. they do this in Iran, you should move there I’m sure you would love it. Send postcards 🙂
Re: Re: Re:
Complains about exploitation of women, goes on to extol the exploitation of women.
Re: Re: Re: Re:
Dude, you know you need to wash the sock every once in a while right? That’s not an STD, it’s probably a UTI. Go talk to your doc and get some antibiotics, you’ll be alright.
Re: Re: Re:
Here, ladies and gentlemen, is somebody harmed by the existence of porn and the thought that other people may enjoy sex. That harm id often brought on by religious teachers who think that anybody enjoying life must be doing sinful things.
Re: Re: Re:
Why do you hate the First Amendment?
Re: Re: Re:
90%+ of adults use porn. Porn has existed for thousands of years. Nothing is going to change the human nature of horniness. You’re welcome to pretend you’re above it all, but forcing others to follow your deranged, humanity denying path is absurd.
Re: Re: Re:2
What I really wanna see is him denying two bears sex.
During bear mating season.
Re: Re: Re:
So your response to we can’t simply wish away the first amendment is….”But I really want to simply wish away the first amendment”?
Re: Re: Re:
porn encourages non-procreative sex
Oh noes! Not one of you fucking nuts.
Next you’ll tell me some asshole of a god never intended for something that feels good to be used for a non-utilitarian purpose.
and it can be connected to the rise of sexually transmitted diseases
Yeah, I never knew you could contract an STD through a computer screen.
Take that puritan horseshit and go fuck yourself with it. Who knows, you might enjoy it.
Re: Re: Re: As expected
Aaaaaand there’s the blatant misogyny. You only care about women if they’re obedient little housewives baking bread and popping out children.
Re:
First:
Which is why parents need to talk to their kids about things like this.
Then:
Which is why parents need to talk to their kids about things like this.
And then:
So what is the problem, oh great oracle of knowledge? Can you verbalize it in a concise matter that isn’t pure bullshit?
Re:
Ok groomer
Re:
Parents do not want their children exposed to this material.
Then they can watch their own fucking kids, otherwise they’re just shitty parents expecting everyone else to watch their bastards.
If I’m going to be inconvenienced everywhere because of some lazy parent, then I want a piece of the tax cut they get for making the kid that we all now have to parent.
The problem is lazy fucking parents. Unless the kids are paying for the means to access the Internet on their own.
Acting like you don’t know what the problem is, is very disingenuous.
We all know what the problem is – lazy parents. It would seem that you’re a bit unclear as to whose responsibility for parenting is.
This is the second David French to disappoint me with legal analysis that is marred by their own skewed morality.
Re:
Why should I as an adult be forced to prove my age because parents don’t want to accept responsibility for their spawn?
Re:
Did you comment here without showing an ID since the site often feature adult topics?
That’s not allowed.
One of my kids just introduced me to a site that generates valid credit card numbers, although they have a very limited lifespan. I have no idea if they would work for age verification. I know they won’t work for actual purchases.
This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it.
Another day, another instance of MM arguing in the pages of TD that we just have to accept that children will have access to porn online. Utterly degenerate.
Re:
Nobody wants children to access porn online. But nobody can come up with a “one size fits all” solution to stopping kids from accessing porn that doesn’t also come with massive issues of its own—to which this article is attesting. Besides, nothing beats good old-fashioned parenting, which is something I thought right-wing dipshits like you would support.
Re: Re:
That depends what you mean by “children”. Adolescents definitely want adolescents to access porn online. Younger children, by contrast, don’t “get it” anyway.
So, “protecting” very young children from pornography makes about as much sense as protecting them from political news or advanced scientific theories that might go over their heads. They’ll close the tab and move on. And, given that adolescents can legally fuck each other, what’s the logic behind making sure they can’t see pictures of such things?
People always show up in these threads to say that parents “should parent”. How about we recognize that, sometimes, there’s little for the parents to do. Let the kids grow up without trying to micro-manage everything, without turning the house into a panopticon.
I’ve never heard of anyone being harmed by naughty pictures, beyond maybe a fleeting feeling of disgust at a “shock image”. The people running universities, though, have long been raising alarms about “helicopter parenting” causing students to have little maturity or independence. Some supervisors have even reported phone calls and visits from the parents of university graduates—to set up job interviews, negotiate pay, and complain when things don’t go as they’d like.
Re: Re: Re:
When that line of argument comes up, it’s usually assumed taht we know that it’s the parents’ job to explain the stuff the kid brings to them, or at worst, spend time together discovering what the actual fuck they are looking at and setting rules and guidelines about what they saw.
Not handing the job over to governments, teachers and CPS. Or doing the kids’ jobs.
Because that’s not parenting, but controlling.
Re: Re: Re:2
Ain’t it funny how conservatives keep whining about a “nanny state” government, then try to leverage the power of government as a means of nannying everyone else’s children?
Re: Re: Re:3
If you’re not being grossly hypocritical are you even a real conservative?
Re: Re: Re:3
Nearly. They complain about it, then demand that everyone is nannied because there might be a few children out there left uncontrolled.
They’d still have a bad argument, but if their desire to have someone else raise their children didn’t affect the huge number of people who don’t have children, there could at least be a discussion. No, my right to watch something you don’t like isn’t nullified because you’re scared of parenting.
Re: Re: Re:2
I’d hope so, but I really don’t think there’s agreement on that. In this very comment section, someone already asked “What happened to parents monitoring the activities of their children?”
Okay, maybe by “children” they’re talking about, like, 5-year-olds, or maybe they mean “monitoring” in some sense that’s not completely Orwellian. At least one poster explicitly suggested giving kids whatever autonomy they can handle, as they get older. But there also exist parents who want to see everything their 16-year-old is doing online and/or to install software to prevent them from doing certain things.
Re: Re: Re:
“sometimes, there’s little for the parents to do”
I am not an expert on the subject, but I thought that modern day cell phones and user accounts made management of adolescent cell phone usage a real thing, like a parent could include/exclude various options/functions, block websites and limit apps .. etc – no?
Re: Re: Re:2
But, but, but, asking parents learn how to use such tools stops them from using think of the children to restrict what adults can do.
Re: Re: Re:2
Those functions exist. Using them on an adolescent seems like a surefire way to make them hate you. If your offspring are old enough to want porn, it’s time to stop spying on and controlling them.
Even for younger children, I think it’d generally be inappropriate. Just a way for a parent to feel like they’re “doing something”, without actually putting any effort in.
Re: Re: Re:3
Helicopter parenting or no parenting is a false dichotomy.
Certainly you can see some grey area between them – right?
Re: Re: Re:4
Sure. But spying on everything a kid does online looks a lot like helicopter parenting, well outside that gray area. Site-blocking is outside it in the other direction: just rely on some barely-known third party to decide what a kid can see (and if a parent’s gonna rely on technology in that way, it seems only fair for the kid to use technology to get their way).
That is, of course, why another poster suggested giving kids the autonomy that they can handle. That requires parents to evaluate what the kids can handle, and to help them along until the parents have basically made their job obsolete. By adolescence, a person should be able to get around the internet or the city with only sporadic oversight; guidance rather than control, excepting the occasional punishment.
Re: Re: Re:3 Teens
They’re teens. Every parenting decision makes them hate you, that’s what being a teenager is about: rebellion against authority. That’s not an excuse to throw up your hands and say you’ll stop parenting.
Re: Re: Re:
How about we recognize that, sometimes, there’s little for the parents to do.
I find it troubling that people responsible for the welfare of children are unaware that an Internet service they’re likely paying for can’t be controlled by them.
Maybe recognizing that some ‘parents’ are too godddamn stupid to be left to care for children is a better approach? Let the state take them to ensure that an impotent parent doesn’t expose their spawn to offensive material due to their inability to accept the responsibility of caring for their child.
Re: Re: Re:2
Better yet, have the State require a license to be a parent in the first place, complete with testing. Somewhere between the DWO simplicity of a driver’s license and the complexity of a bar exam.
Aw, who am I kidding. Red states would just hand out licenses to people who can walk in the door, without hitting said door. That’d end the usefulness of the program right there.
Re:
Children can gain access to porn in the real world, and do so when it becomes something of interest to them. Porn magazines and video tapes made their way into the hands of interested children long before the Internet was born.
Re:
Another day, another instance of Jhon Smith deepthroating the boot.
Re:
…hallucinated nobody mentally competent, ever.
Re:
Another day, another post demanding that the taxpayer funded nanny state take care of their offspring.
Get off yer ass, put down the crack pipe and be a patent for once. You are a parent, right?
Re:
that we just have to accept that children will have access to porn online
Well, you can always volunteer to co-parent with the lazy assholes who don’t want to watch their own bastard kids.
Dave is just mad that parents don’t parent the way he wants.
Of course, some parents literally do not have the time tocheck up on their kids enough. But that is a problem with the economy and culture we’ve created and had imposed upon us.
Re:
And it’s going to be even more imposing with an increase of unwanted children that’s going to grow up with absent parents due to the overturning of Roe vs Wade and the totalitarian nutjobs passing laws criminalizing abortions.
Imagine that generation of unwanted kids growing up and how their dysfunctional upbringing will affect society. It’s gonna cost society, a lot.
Re: Re:
Assuming they haven’t died in the various factories, or, God forbid, as child soldiers…
We need meaningful privacy legislation
While I don’t think it is a slam dunk, I would feel much better about providing my ID online if we had meaningful privacy legislation. Companies do not store the CVV code on a credit card because they know they’ll get in financial trouble if they do. If there were meaningful privacy legislation that meant storing any idea information beyond what was absolutely necessary, so providing an ID with akin to a bouncer, taking a look at the ID, I’d feel a lot better about these kinds of laws.