The Problem With The Otherwise Very Good And Very Important Eleventh Circuit Decision On The Florida Social Media Law

from the the-hole-in-the-donut dept

There are many good things to say about the Eleventh Circuit’s decision on the Florida SB 7072 social media law, including that it’s a very well-reasoned, coherent, logical, sustainable, precedent-consistent, and precedent-supporting First Amendment analysis explaining why platforms moderating user-generated speech still implicates their own protected rights. And not a moment too soon, while we wait for the Supreme Court to hopefully grant relief from the unconstitutional Texas HB20 social media bill.

But there’s also a significant issue with it, which is that it only found most of the provisions of SB 7072 presumptively unconstitutional, so some of the law’s less-obviously-yet-still pernicious provisions have been allowed to go into effect.

These provisions include the need to disclose moderation standards (§501.2041(2)(a)) (the court only took issue with needing to post an explanation for every moderation decision), disclose when the moderation rules change (501.2041(2)(c)), disclose to users view counts on their posts (§501.2041(2)(e)), disclose that it has given candidates free advertising (§ 106.1072(4)), and give deplatformed users access to their data (§ 510.2041(2)(i)). The analysis gave short-shrift to these provisions that it allowed to go into effect, despite their burdens on the same editorial discretion the court overall recognized was First Amendment-protected, despite the extent that they violate the First Amendment as a form of compelled speech, and despite how they should be pre-empted by Section 230.

Of course, the court did acknowledge that these provisions might yet be shown to violate the First Amendment. For instance, in the context of the data-access provision the court wrote:

It is theoretically possible that this provision could impose such an inordinate burden on the platforms’ First Amendment rights that some scrutiny would apply. But at this stage of the proceedings, the plaintiffs haven’t shown a substantial likelihood of success on the merits of their claim that it implicates the First Amendment. [FN 18]

And it made a somewhat similar acknowledgment for the campaign advertising provision:

While there is some uncertainty in the interest this provision serves and the meaning of “free advertising,” we conclude that at this stage of the proceedings, NetChoice hasn’t shown that it is substantially likely to be unconstitutional. [FN 24]

And for the other disclosure provisions as well:

Of course, NetChoice still might establish during the course of litigation that these provisions are unduly burdensome and therefore unconstitutional. [FN 25]

Yet because the court could not already recognize how these rules chill editorial discretion means that they will now get the chance to. For example, it is unclear how a platform could even comply with them, especially a platform like Techdirt (or Reddit, or Wikimedia), which use community-based moderation, and whose moderating whims are impossible to know, let alone disclose, in advance of implementing. Such a provision would seem to be chilling of editorial discretion by making it impossible to choose such a moderation system, even when doing so aligns with the expressive values of the platform. (True, SB 7072 may not yet reach the aforementioned platforms, but such is little consolation if it means that the platforms it does reach could still be chilled from making of such editorial choices.)

The analysis was also scant with respect to the First Amendment prohibition against compelled speech, which these provisions implicate by forcing platforms to say certain things. Although this prohibition against compelled speech supported the court’s willingness to enjoin the other provisions, its analysis glossed over how this constitutional rule should have applied to these disclosure provisions:

These are content-neutral regulations requiring social-media platforms to disclose “purely factual and uncontroversial information” about their conduct toward their users and the “terms under which [their] services will be available,” which are assessed under the standard announced in Zauderer. 471 U.S. at 651. While “restrictions on non-misleading commercial speech regarding lawful activity must withstand intermediate scrutiny,” when “the challenged provisions impose a disclosure requirement rather than an affirmative limitation on speech . . . the less exacting scrutiny described in Zauderer governs our review.” Milavetz, Gallop & Milavetz, P.A. v. United States, 559 U.S. 229, 249 (2010). Although this standard is typically applied in the context of advertising and to the government’s interest in preventing consumer deception, we think it is broad enough to cover S.B. 7072’s disclosure requirements—which, as the State contends, provide users with helpful information that prevents them from being misled about platforms’ policies. [p. 57-8]

And by not enjoining these provisions it will now compel platforms to publish information it wasn’t already publishing, or even potentially significantly re-engineer their systems (such as to give users view count data).

In addition, the decision then gave short shrift to how Section 230 pre-empted such requirements. To an extent, this oversight may in part be due to how the court found it was not necessary to reach Section 230 in finding that most of the law’s provisions should be enjoined (“Because we conclude that the Act’s content-moderation restrictions are substantially likely to violate the First Amendment, and because that conclusion fully disposes of the appeal, we needn’t reach the merits of the plaintiffs’ preemption challenge.” [p.18]).

But for the provisions where it couldn’t find the First Amendment to be enough of a reason to enjoin it, the court ideally should have moved onto this alternative basis before allowing the provisions to go into effect. Unfortunately, it’s also possible that the court really didn’t recognize how Section 230 was a bar to them:

Nor are these provisions substantially likely to be preempted by 47 U.S.C. § 230. Neither NetChoice nor the district court asserted that § 230 would preempt the disclosure, candidate-advertising, or user-data-access provisions. It is not substantially likely that any of these provisions treat social-media platforms “as the publisher or speaker of any information provided by” their users, 47 U.S.C. § 230(c)(1), or hold platforms “liable on account of” an “action voluntarily taken in good faith to restrict access to or availability of material that the provider considers to be obscene, lewd, lascivious, filthy, excessively violent, harassing, or otherwise objectionable,” id. § 230(c)(2)(A). [FN 26]

Fortunately, however, there will likely be future opportunities to brief that issue more clearly in the future, as the case has now been remanded back to the district court for further proceedings – this appeal was only in reference to whether the law was likely to be so legally dubious to warrant being enjoined while it was challenged, but the challenge itself can continue. And it will happen in the shadow of this otherwise full-throated defense of the First Amendment in the context of platform content moderation.

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Comments on “The Problem With The Otherwise Very Good And Very Important Eleventh Circuit Decision On The Florida Social Media Law”

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re:

But that allows “I’m not touching you”–type rules-lawyering assholes to look for loopholes in the system and exploit them. That creates an infinite feedback loop where the mods try to fix the loopholes, only to open more loopholes, which the assholes will exploit, and repeat until the rules are so microdetailed that people can barely post anything without breaking the rules.

The whole point of having some vagueness behind moderation decisions is to allow for on-the-fly adaptation to situations admins didn’t expect when they wrote the rules. Take away that vagueness and you get the feedback loop of “rules lawyering ➡ fix the rules ➡ exploit the rules ➡ rules lawyering…”, which does nobody any good.

Christenson says:

Re: Re: Rules Lawyering

I think Techdirt’s moderation is pretty simple, and would be very tough to rules lawyer out of with a fairly general description.

Ultimately, Mike Masnick is the final arbiter, but techdirt’s comment section is generally run as a contest — ill-formed posts –> /dev/nul, maybe spam too, and don’t get voted as inappropriate by the community. Try to get upvoted for funny or insightful.

Tanner Andrews (profile) says:

Re: Re: vagueness is occasionally beneficial

look for loopholes in the system and exploit them

They taught us in school that sometimes you want to leave things vague, either to handle the likely case that issues do not arise, or to allow for as-needed interpretation. Moderation standards might provide an example.

Moderation standards could be described as “flexible, in that a certain number or fraction of users may cause a post to be hidden”, or “flexible, in that it will be whatever offends a moderator in a bad mood at the time of consideration”. Hey, that is our standard, since it is our computer we get to choose the standard.

Can the state set a standard for standards, requiring that moderation standards be measurable and objective? Maybe it could, but it does not at present.

If it did, that would certainly rule out editorial discretion. The editor of the NY Times may simply not feel like running your GOP endorsement letter because his coffee was lousy and some guy with a bad spray-tan had stunk up his subway car that morning. The NY Post might not run it because you were not Trump-y enough and the editor had already had enough of you damn liberals that day.

What remedy is there against him? Little, maybe, but more likely none. Certainly the law can provide no remedy consistent with the First Amendment or A1S4, Florida Constitution.

So, if the published standard is “whether Mr. Andrews likes it”, that would qualify as a clear published standard. Likewise, then, “whether Mr. Andrews’ fellow readers like it in such numbers” should work. Even “whether Mikey likes it soaked in milk” could do.

Oh, you want a detailed standard? We can do that. “Mr. Andrews is more prone to like it after you have gotten him a health beverage”, or “Mikey wants the milk to be at least 4%”.

The whole law reminds us that Tallahassee is actually not all that far from Chattahoochee.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Not a First Amendment Right

Please read Justice Harlan’s dissent in Plessy v. Ferguson, 163 U.S. 537, 16 S. Ct. 1138 (1896). A later SCOTUS came to agree with Harlan and overruled Plessy.

Like railroads of the 19th century, every social medium platform is state-supported. In the 19th century, it was wrong for a state-supported enterprise to discriminate against taxpayers that paid taxes that went to support the enterprise. In the 20th century, it is still wrong for a state-supported enterprise to discriminate against taxpayers that pay taxes that go to support the enterprise.

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Naughty Autie says:

Re: Re: Re:

Like railroads of the 19th century, every social medium platform is state-supported.

ORLY? Because I’ve never heard about Twitter et al. being in receipt of government-funded subsidies. Why don’t you leave this debate until you can find actual examples of companies *cough*AT&T*cough* that are?

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2 Please Leave the Debate Until You Leave the Twilight Zone for the Real World

Twitter is within the Internet/WWW. The Internet is a state-supported facility and establishment which provides (at least functionally) a place of public accommodation for resource sharing. Twitter service makes use of Internet apparatus and purtenances.

It was not hard to find webpages that describe federal support for the Internet.

Emergency Broadband Benefit

The rural broadband divide: An urgent national problem that we can solve

Broadband Implementation for California

Biden’s New Plan To Expand Broadband Access

National Telecommunications and Information Administration

Social medium platforms make a tremendous amount of profit thanks to mass federal government support, which comes from taxes on the US public. The social medium platforms must stop discriminating against any subpopulation of the US public.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:7

The local phone company controls nothing after the call leaves the local phone network. Yet, the local phone company provides his customer with common carriage in the case of a long distance phone call and bills end-to-end.

And the local company contracts and pays for 3rd party carriage.

Twitter DOES NOT!!

Twitter DOES NOT PAY for 3rd party transit.

Twitter DOES NOT PAY for 3rd party delivery.

Twitter is not an end-to-end common carrier because it only controls the source end!

I already thoroughly destroyed this argument.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:8 Once Again Irrelevancies are Screeched

Please learn some facts about the law and the service which an ISP provides to its customers and third parties.

An ISP has implicit contract in fact with all of its customers.

This contract obligates the ISP properly to implement and to perform Internet packet carriage and routing.

The Twitter common carriage service reasonably assumes that Internet actors obey the covenant of good faith and fair dealing.

Thus Twitter even more than the local telephone company controls end-to-end delivery because Twitter uses TCP VCs set up by its customers.

This reliance is more than enough to give Twitter end-to-end control of delivery of digital personal literary property from one user to another.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:9

Now you are just reaching. I mean you are seriously just pulling shit out of your ass at this point.

An ISP has implicit contract in fact with all of its customers.

So we agree, an ISP is a common carrier, like the telco, which guarantees that it will transfer packets from my local network, through their network, before routing the packets to a 3rd party network (unless the traffic is destened for a location directly within my ISP’s network)

This contract obligates the ISP properly to implement and to perform Internet packet carriage and routing.

The the extent that they have control over their network. Comcast cannot provide packet carriage and routing past their own network, ie, if Netflix’s network is “down”, there is not a single fucking thing Comcast can do about it.

The Twitter common carriage service reasonably assumes that Internet actors obey the covenant of good faith and fair dealing.

BUT Twitter is not paying nor making contracts for packet exchange for transit and deliver of tweets. My ISP specifically has contracts for packet exchange.

Twitter does not pay nor contract 3rd parties for transit.

Twitter does not pay nor contract 3rd parties for delivery.

Twitter is not an end-to-end common carrier as they only control the source end.

This reliance is more than enough to give Twitter end-to-end control of delivery of digital personal literary property from one user to another.

How does Twitter have end-to-end control of Comcast’s network? AT&T’s network? Verizon’s network?

My ISP has no contracts with Twitter for Tweet deliver. Period. Hell, they could block Twitter from their networks and there isn’t a thing that can be done about it… see Russia for an example.

They do NOT HAVE CONTROL OF ANYTHING PAST THEIR SERVERS AND NETWORKS. No matter how much you wish this to be true, it isn’t. And every argument you make is just as easy to destroy as the next.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:10 Nothing Pointed Out Has Relevance to the Three Prong Test of Common Carriage

So we agree, an ISP is a common carrier, like the telco, which guarantees that it will transfer packets from my local network, through their network, before routing the packets to a 3rd party network (unless the traffic is destened for a location directly within my ISP’s network)

An ISP provides common carriage of packetized data that is carried in an IP Packet.

BUT Twitter is not paying nor making contracts for packet exchange for transit and deliver of tweets. My ISP specifically has contracts for packet exchange.

Not relevant to determining whether Twitter performs common carriage.

Twitter does not pay nor contract 3rd parties for transit.

Not relevant to determining whether Twitter performs common carriage.

Twitter is not an end-to-end common carrier as they only control the source end.

Twitter software downloaded to the recipient computing device in an HTTP RESPONSE extracts the Tweet from the body of an HTTP RESPONSE that was transferred to the recipient computing device in a TCP VC just as Twitter software downloaded to the originating computer’s browser in an HTTP RESPONSE takes the tweet from originating computer’s memory and PUTs or POSTs the tweet to the Twitter server in an HTTP REQUEST.

Without the Twitter software transferred to the recipient computing device, no tweet would be extracted to the memory of the recipient computing device. With this extraction no tweet would be delivered to the screen of the recipient computing device.

How does Twitter have end-to-end control of Comcast’s network? AT&T’s network? Verizon’s network?

Irrelevant because such control is not necessary to match a prong of the common carriage test.

My ISP has no contracts with Twitter for Tweet deliver. Period. Hell, they could block Twitter from their networks and there isn’t a thing that can be done about it… see Russia for an example.

A contract is not necessary. Twitter can rely on the service of the ISP just as it relies on the browser of the originating and recipient computers.

They do NOT HAVE CONTROL OF ANYTHING PAST THEIR SERVERS AND NETWORKS. No matter how much you wish this to be true, it isn’t. And every argument you make is just as easy to destroy as the next.

Without the Twitter software that runs in the browser of the destinian computer, no tweet appears on the destination computer screen.

Twitter has much more control over delivery at the destination computing device than an originating local telephone company has over long distance call completion and long distance voice call establishment to a destination customer premises equipment.

Blocking Twitter tweet delivery would probably constitute unlawful restraint of trade and unlawful service denial. Both Twitter and also the end user could each file a complaint with the FTC.

Twitter can rely on lawful behavior of an ISP.

They do NOT HAVE CONTROL OF ANYTHING PAST THEIR SERVERS AND NETWORKS. No matter how much you wish this to be true, it isn’t. And every argument you make is just as easy to destroy as the next.

Until you start to argue the three prongs that define common carriage, your input to the conversation is noise and not informations.

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:11

Until you start to argue the three prongs that define common carriage, […]

Four prongs. You forgot “carriage”. The argument being made here is that what Twitter does isn’t carriage, so it can’t be a common carrier. Lots of things we all agree are not common carriers offer a good or service to the public under uniform terms for a fee, so you cannot leave out that prong. The nature of the service must be that of carriage for it to qualify as common carriage.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:3

Twitter is within the Internet/WWW.

First of all, the internet is different than the WWW, so grouping them just makes it seem like you don’t know which protocols are actually involved in the services you’re referencing.

The Internet is a state-supported facility and establishment which provides (at least functionally) a place of public accommodation for resource sharing.

Twitter (and any other social media company) isn’t the internet. The internet also isn’t solely an American government project anymore. It’s a network of networks that include foreign-owned networks.

Twitter service makes use of Internet apparatus and purtenances.

Taxis, Uber, Lyft, and shipping companies make use of public roads, but they retain the ability to decide what cargo to carry and what passengers to carry and what advertising and speech to put on their vehicles. Uber can bar you from using their services if you violate their terms of use.

It was not hard to find webpages that describe federal support for the Internet.

You breathe air regulated by the EPA. Does that mean you lose your 1st Amendment rights because you benefit from publicly funded services?

Social medium platforms make a tremendous amount of profit thanks to mass federal government support, which comes from taxes on the US public.

Every business that operates in the US benefits from public funding because that’s how society functions. You’d have to be arguing that no individual can discriminate against anyone else if benefiting from publicly funded services makes such discrimination illegal.

The social medium platforms must stop discriminating against any subpopulation of the US public.

The social media platforms retain the right to refuse service to anyone they don’t want to do business with unless relating to a protected class status protected by law, the same as you have the right to create a website and block my IP address from accessing it or shutting down my login account on your website’s comment section.

If clients are paying you for this hodgepodge of bullshit reasoning, you’re ripping them off.

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Tanner Andrews (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3

Twitter is within the Internet/

OK, I think this is the heart of your analytical problem.

Twitter is a destination: the internet delivers packets to and from their servers. The internet may have some resemblence to classical common carriers.

However, Twitter is not within that model.

Reverting to the classic common carrier model, the railroad brings boxcars full of materials to my siding. It is up to me to decide what to do with the arriving content of those boxcars. The internet brings packets to Twitter, which decides what to do with them.

The railroad picks up the boxcars which I fill with goods, and carries those boxcars to my customers. The content of those cars is between me and my customers. Which train carries the cars is up to the railroad, but the railroad has little to do with their content. I decide on what I will send, subject to my customers actually wanting my product.

My factory is not the railroad. Neither is my customer’s warehouse the railroad. The railroad conveys boxcar-loads of my goods to the warehouse. Likewise, the internet conveys packet-loads of data from Twitter to the devices of its users. Twitter is not the internet, any more than my factory is the railroad.

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Christenson says:

Re: Re: Lies, Damned Lies, and Audience Metrics

Kobe:
There’s enough malware in the world (and I access Techdirt through 3 distinct computers and 2 or 3 browsers) that one person, me, looking at something might get counted 5 times, and I haven’t even bothered to use incognito browsing features. Further, there’s lots of bots in the world scanning things, and they might or might not be nice about it and retain their fingerprints between scanning the site for content.

And we haven’t gotten to whether I actually looked at what you said, instead of just noticing “Oh, it’s YOU again” and ignoring you as I scroll past.

So that counter is only a very rough measurement.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re: Social Medium Common Carriage, Civil Rights, and Public Accommodation Discrimination Cuts Across Political Boundaries

I’m apolitical. I only care about undoing the harm that my family did in planning, leading, and perpetrating the genocide that white racial supremacist European Zionist colonial settler anti-Jews started in Dec 1947 after anti-genocide became jus cogens in Dec 1946. This genocide has never ceased.

My fiancée Olivia is non-white Palestinian Arab Muslim. She is leftist-progress. I have collected many accounts of social medium common carriage, civil rights, and public accommodation discrimination.

This discrimination is unlawful and is not an element of First Amendment Rights of a social medium ICS.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:2

This discrimination is unlawful and is not an element of First Amendment Rights

Which right grants you access to private property after you have been told you are no longer welcome on that private property?

You do realize that the 1st amendment grants the right of association.

If Twitter doesn’t want to associate with you, then it is well within their rights to kick you off of their private property.

If you don’t like it, then just go fuck off to somewhere that wants you.

Simple as that.

Darkness Of Course (profile) says:

Viewer counts, fun with code

First, define view. And Viewer for that matter. Next, consider how different platforms provide access to the posts.

Some, provide as depicted by the court, but a good number do not. Twitter for example likes to deal out posts so you always have a list of tweets to consider.

Now, start at Home. Scroll down three pages. You couldn’t read any of those posts. They’re gone. So, how ya gonna code that Bubba? You aren’t.

Idiots, and idiots in robes, do not comprehend what it takes to implement their inane decisions. They do not understand SW, much less the many layered boundaries of various functionality that provides the service to the user.

Viewer count = rand( Seed );
Seed = rand(); // who cares if this works, nobody.

Solved.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: 1st Amendment is narrow in defining unconstitutional

The First Amendment only provides a limited restriction on the power of Congress to enact a law.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

For example, the Civil Rights Act of 1964 limits the ability of a restaurateur to express himself by refusing to serve blacks because nowhere within its statutory text does 42 U.S. Code § 2000a (Prohibition against discrimination or segregation in places of public accommodation) abridge the freedom of speech (expression).

§ 2000a regulates the conduct of interstate commerce. The regulation of interstate commerce is an enumerated power of the US federal government.

A social medium ICS engages in interstate commerce. Congress can regulate social medium conduct in interstate commerce.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re:

What part of “Congress shall make no law” don’t you understand? Twitter isn’t Congress or the government or a common carrier. Twitter is entitled to 1st Amendment rights, just as you are, to be free from government restrictions on their speech, including refusing to host speech they disagree with on their private platform as you can refuse speech in your private home.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re: The Key Word is Abridging

  1. 42 U.S. Code § 2000a – Prohibition against discrimination or segregation in places of public accommodation
  2. 42 U.S. Code § 1981 – Equal rights under the law
  3. 42 U.S. Code § 1982 – Property rights of citizens
    are not abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press.

They regulate conduct, which the federal government has the power to regulate.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Texas and Florida Should Skip Trying to Regulate Moderation

Texas and Florida should enact the Massachusetts Statutes into their law codes in order to stop social medium platform discrimination against users.

MGL c. 159, s. 1 and s. 2

Section 1. Every common carrier of merchandise or other property shall receive, transport and forward all property offered for such purposes by other such carriers as promptly, faithfully and impartially, at as low rates of charge, and in a manner and on terms and conditions as favorable to the carrier offering such property, as he on the same day and at the same place receives, forwards and transports, in the ordinary course of business, property of a like description offered by persons other than such carriers. Such carrier shall not discriminate against any particular person or subject him to any undue or unreasonable prejudice or disadvantage. The supreme judicial or superior court shall have jurisdiction in equity to enforce this section.

Section 2. Every such carrier who wilfully neglects or refuses to comply with the preceding section shall forfeit not less than fifty nor more than five hundred dollars, to the person offering the property for transportation.

After paying out penalties in the $10,000,000 to $100,000,000 range, the social medium companies will start to behave.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2 Different Jurisdiction

The Commonwealth of Massachusetts does not have to pay any attention to either the 5th or 11th Circuit unless SCOTUS says it must.

The Massachusetts definition of common carriage and the FCC definition of telecommunication common carriage have always co-existed. The Massachusetts definition is used for the local loop. The FCC definition is used for telecommunications common carriage from one local telephone company to another.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:3

The Massachusetts definition is used for the local loop. The FCC definition is used for telecommunications common carriage from one local telephone company to another.

And neither the local-loop nor the inter-exchange regulations have anything to do with social media, as they are not, in any way shape or form, a common carrier.

I will use my same argument as always:

If your house is burning down, are you going to Tweet, Facebook post, Instagram post, or TikTok a video to the fire department, or will you just pick up a common carrier phone, landline or cellular, and call the fire department?

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4 An Interactive Computer Service Can Provide Common Carriage

There is no statutory basis for the federal government to regulate ICS common carriage.

Article VI ¶ 2 and the 10th Amendment leave ICS common carriage regulation to the states.

I recommend that all states enact the Massachusetts common carriage statutes.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:5

I recommend that all states enact the Massachusetts common carriage statutes.

Still waiting for a valid reason of why you think Twitter should be a common carrier, considering it meets none of the definitions of a common carrier.

Twitter is not a “dumb pipe” that carries whatever it’s told to carry. It is a curated site that tries to appease the majority of users so that it can retain and grow its user base.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:7

But you are missing the entire POINT!!!!

How does any of that relate to Twitter?

At the network level, local-loop, ISP, backbone, etc., there is a good argument that they are or should have a common carrier status.

My ISP Comcast should not have a single concern over what I use my internet service for. It is a common carrier, providing me a dumb pipe that I use how I see fit.

Twitter has none of the same traits that an ISP or telco has, so again, how is Twitter specifically a common carrier?

I need to use an ISP to access the internet, I need to use a phone company to call other phones, there is absolutely no reason why I need to use Twitter such that it should become a common carrier.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:8 Common Carriage Long Proceeded the Existence of an ISP or the Internet

An ISP only provides part of the end-to-end transportation of Internet common carriage. It does not exhaust the definition of common carriage.

The definition of common carriage allows a carrier, with which the originator deals, to employ another carrier to complete the transportation to the destination.

[By the way, this is how it worked with POTS service. The local phone company billed for end to end calls and passed part of the payment onto AT&T (or some other long distance provider).]

Please study the legal definition of common carriage. It’s not complex.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:9

Please study the legal definition of common carriage. It’s not complex.

Right back at you.

You have yet to give a valid reason other than you wish it to be, as to why Twitter should be a common carrier?

I keep asking for you to answer how common carriage laws pertain to a curated forum of internet users, and you don’t seem to want to answer that.

So even you can’t come up with a valid reason that Twitter should be a common carrier.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:11 The Definition of Common Carrier Has Three Prongs

Twitter meets all three prongs.

  1. Holds out carriage to public.
  2. Uniform terms.
  3. Charges a fee, which in the Twitter case is paid by work or by barter (“eyes-on-a-page”).

Nothing more need be said.

Stephen T. Stone does not like the definition of common carriage. It’s not my problem.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:13 A Social Medium User Pays a Fee for Message Common Carriage of Digital Personal Property

A social medium user exchanges the valuable commodity of “eyes-on-a-page” for message common carriage. The caselaw of “barter-for-carriage” or “work-for-carriage” common carriage is well developed and long established.

Naughty Autie says:

Re: Re: Re:14

To put it in a way that even you can understand it:

The phoneline is essential in case I need to contact emergency services. This is why calls to 999 are free to the caller. However, calls to other numbers are charged because I do not have to call them.

To put it in a way that specifically relates to online services:

The ISP is essential in case I need to contact publicly-funded services (such as 111) via one of their online portals. This is why police and NHS websites (for example) do not carry adverts. However, other websites may host adverts because I do not have to access them.

Get it? Got it? Good.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:15 Don't Confuse Public Utility with Common Carrier

911 is a public utility service and not a common carriage service.

AT&T, G-TEL, RBOCs, GTOCs, and similar entities were all public franchises or natural monopolies.

Some of these entities might have come under a plurality of categories, but the law distinguishes among a common carrier, a public utility, and a public franchise.

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nasch (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:14

The caselaw of “barter-for-carriage” or “work-for-carriage” common carriage is well developed and long established.

All right, for the millionth time, let’s see the court decision (not your own filing that’s been slapped down by a judge) that indicates that viewing ads during the course of looking at a website constitutes paying a fee.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:15 Trial By Jury is Metaphorical Trial By Combat

The parties are trying to persuade the Appeals Courts (really SCOTUS) to create a new precedent for new technology.

We — the good guys — will make the — bad guys — eat dust by metaphorically knocking the bad guys off their horses and hacking them to pieces with metaphorical broadswords
1. because we understand the technology and the law and
2. because we can make arguments that will satisfy the Justices.

I already count four Justices on our side — the good guys.

If SCOTUS were really on the side of the bad guys, it would have granted cert to a cartoon case like Lewis v. Google LLC, No. 20-16073 (9th Cir. Apr. 15, 2021) long ago.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:16

The parties are trying to persuade the Appeals Courts (really SCOTUS) to create a new precedent for new technology.

Given how good of a job you’re doing of convincing a bunch of laypeople to buy what you’re selling here⁠—hint: you’re not doing a good job of it⁠—presenting your case in front of actual legal professionals will probably go poorly for you.

We — the good guys

You’re literally trying to set a legal precedent that says an interactive web service can be forced by the law to host/carry/whatever speech such as anti-queer propaganda, racial slurs, spam, and porn even if said service doesn’t want to host/carry/whatever that speech. Calling yourself a “good guy” is a hell of a thing to do here, you fucking fascist.

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nasch (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:16

Corrected:

The parties are trying to persuade the Appeals Courts (really SCOTUS) to apply the law as it exists

We — the idiots — will make them — companies trying to go about their business — waste a bunch of time and money responding to our nonsensical crap that has already been bitchslapped by a court once
1. because we willfully misunderstand the technology and the law and
2. because we cannot make arguments that will satisfy anyone whatsoever with a functional brain.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:12

And none of that applies to Twitter, lest it apply to every single site on the internet that hosts publicly available forums.

So what you are saying is that all internet forums, even those that cater to underwater basket weaving, are somehow common carriers and should be regulated as such?

See how stupid that sounds?

What makes Twitter different than an underwater basket weaving forum, keeping in mind that the only thing that allows the underwater basket weaving forum to exist is proper moderation?

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:13 A Kid, who works after school, by delivering packages on a bike is probably a common carrier

A small social medium service can easily escape common carriage obligations. It can never have a license for public accommodation discrimination.

In order to escape common carriage obligations, the small social medium service can use the print journalism “Letters to the Editor” model to distribute third-party content, or it can refrain from monetizing “eyes-on-a-page”.

Naughty Autie says:

Re: Re: Re:14

So what you’re basically saying is that a forum can choose either to be a blog rather than a forum or to not exist since, without monetisation to keep it privately owned or government funding to make it a common carrier, there are insufficient funds to pay hosting costs. Why is your position so blatantly ridiculous?

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:15 Not My Problem -- I worry about law not funding

A social medium platform doesn’t have a license to violate federal and state law.

If you believe the law should be different, lobby your legislators.

Allowing business and large numbers of people to violate the law with impunity tears the heart out of the US political and constitutional system.

I am apolitical except with respect to Palestine. I
1. liked GHWB,
2. detested the Clintons,
3. despised Gore,
4. knew GWB at HBS and was skeptical of him,
5. was unimpressed by Obama,
6. voted once for Trump because I consider him amusing, and
7. held my nose when I voted for Biden.

I want my fiancée to be able to use Twitter without Zionist harassment.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:16

Allowing business and large numbers of people to violate the law with impunity tears the heart out of the US political and constitutional system.

When Twitter actually violates the law, you let me know. But whining about how unfair it is that you or your fiancée or your dog or whoever else you can name can’t use Twitter won’t get you any sympathy here. Nobody owes you a platform or an audience at their expense⁠—and that includes Twitter.

I am apolitical except

…for all the times you were political.

voted once for Trump because I consider him amusing

And why am I not surprised that you think the orange shithead is someone worth supporting.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:17 I Believe that the Six Social Medium Defendants violated the law

Hence I filed the Complaint. The litigation will almost certainly reach SCOTUS again and, SCOTUS will grant cert unless another case became ripe for SCOTUS review before my litigation.

I have been doing this type of litigation for a long time.

I am currently considering whether the three cases should be consolidated. Both SB 7072 and also HB 20 are highly problematic pieces of legislation. If I had been involved in the drafting, the acts would have looked different.

Yet consolidation might be worthwhile because all three cases involve similar legal controversies.

I consider it nonsensical to claim a business entity is like a common carrier with respect to a service. The business is either a common carrier with respect to a service, or it isn’t. MGL c. 159 is perfect. Texas Statutes Title 2, Chapter 5 has problems. The Florida definition of common carrier uses incorrect terminology.

“Common carrier” shall include any person, firm, or corporation, who undertakes for hire, as a regular business, to transport persons or commodities from place to place offering his or her services to all such as may choose to employ the common carrier and pay his or her charges.

The above seems not to encompass a letter or message common carrier. Texas uses goods where Florida uses commodities. Massachusetts correctly refers to merchandise and other property.

Older common carriage statutes tend to be more likely to get the terminology correct than newer statutes.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:16

“I am apolitical…”

Except you predominantly vote for conservatives and seek to force social media platforms to provide an audience and a microphone to NeoNazis and alt-right assholes even when they call for genocide and violence.

“We the good guys” indeed. You’re John Hammond unleashing monsters on the world while thinking you’re a benefactor.

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:9

The definition of common carriage allows a carrier, with which the originator deals, to employ another carrier to complete the transportation to the destination.

Sure, but can you point to a common carrier that employs Twitter, Facebook, YouTube, etc. “to complete the transportation to the destination”? No, you cannot. No ISP pays social media companies at all (aside from paying for them to host ads); quite the opposite, actually.

Please study the legal definition of common carriage. It’s not complex.

Maybe you should. In CDA §230, it expressly excludes services like social media from “common carriers”, and the definition you gave doesn’t fit them unless you distort “requires a fee” to things that don’t actually involve paying a fee by any sensible definition.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:10 Twitter Completes the Delivery of a digital personal literary property

Please learn how a web/cloud service works.

Twitter downloads a program to the destination computing device.

Twitter’s program executes the HTTP request to obtain the message from Twitter server and to put the message into a structure in the memory substrate of the destination computer.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:12 Please Learn How Browsers Work

Twitter’s web page contains declarative and procedural programs. The web page is downloaded via an HTTP GET Request to the user web browser.

The Twitter web page program executes HTTP requests to complete message common carriage to the destination user’s computing define.

Plurasight has some good online courses which explain how a web browser works and how to program the front end.

I understand why Judge Stearns dismissed my complain. Only a rare judge in a lower court is willing to underrule the most logically fallacious established caselaw — especially when few lawyers or judges understand the facts. A final order of dismissal is the means to kick the case up to a higher court. If he really wanted to kill the case, he would have dismissed with prejudice.

Look up the history sometime of Byrne v Boadle (2 Hurl. & Colt. 722, 159 Eng. Rep. 299, 1863) and res ipsa loquitur. Denial of antecedent is a weed in the legal system and hard to eradicate.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:13

JavaScript code is not a program. It’s a script. The browser is the program that runs the script. A program is (generally) a stand-alone piece of software that can execute on its own and gets compiled before running. JavaScript is code that gets run at the time of usage and in the browser (i.e. client-side). There are some other distinctions at play, but in general you just don’t seem to understand what you’re talking about.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:14 Please Learn Some Software Engineering

One can write a whole webserver in JavaScript. Usually a such a server is interpreted by node, but one could compile the JavaScript with Babel. Lisp has been compiled and interpreted almost from the beginning. On the Lisp machine, one used Lisp scripts to automate system administration.

Babbling about the vacuous distinction between program and script shows you to be a tyro.

There are a few languages that can be interpreted, compiled, or synthesized.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:16 JavaScript Can Be Used to Write a Program

Today’s webpage is usually a program, which is written in a combination of a procedural language with a declarative languages.

Please learn how a web page is created. Please take a course from Plurasight or some similar online teaching system.

The VUEJS courses provide a good introduction to front end development and web pages.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:17

I have a computer science degree and I teach web development. A webpage is not a program. A browser is a program. A webpage is a digital document composed of information and scripting interpreted by the browser and the web server. A webpage cannot execute on its own without a browser. Webpages are composed of scripting and markup language code, not programming code and are not compiled in advance of running.

That you fail to grasp the basics of the technology you’re trying to get backdoor regulated by the courts is very telling.

Tanner Andrews (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:14 not a program, then

A program is (generally) a stand-alone piece of software that can execute on its own and gets compiled before running

So by your definition, a browser does not qualify as a program, because it does not stand alone and cannot execute on its own. It requires a whole bunch of surrounding stuff, such as a graphic environment (or text environment, for text browsers), and that in turn probably requires an operating system, which may well require special device drivers.

Not entirely sure that I agree with you, actually.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:15

It’s not my definition. That’s a simplified version of the academic concept that is taught in computer science programs. Programs can have dependencies, such as needing to run on a computer with an operating system, but that’s not the same as requiring an interpreter to execute scripting code at runtime. The browser is a compiled program that displays scripting and markup language code.

Tanner Andrews (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:16 not a program, then

a simplified version of the academic concept

Not so much simplified, as wrong-ified. Limiting programs to stand-alone pieces of code as you originally did was clearly wrong. Backtracking to allow dependencies and environments helps only a little, and only if we are careful not to include microcoded processors. Most CISC machines are microcoded, so pretty much everything is interpreted at that level.

If there is such an academic concept, it is probably either wrong or useless. I say probably-or, because there is a chance that it is both.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:17 Exactly -- Limiting programs to stand-alone pieces of code as you originally did was clearly wrong.

“Most CISC machines are microcoded, so pretty much everything is interpreted at that level.”

For want of a better word, I used to explain that hardware logic translated an instruction of a RISC processor into lower level operations.

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:11

Please learn how a web/cloud service works.

I know how it works. I do it for a living.

Twitter downloads a program to the destination computing device.

No, it uploads a packet of data to an ISP when the ISP forwards a request for that data from a user (which the ISP then sends to the destination computing device for it to download) and downloads a different packet of data when the ISP forwards that data after it has been uploaded by a registered user.

Twitter’s program executes the HTTP request to obtain the message from Twitter server and to put the message into a structure in the memory substrate of the destination computer.

None of which would support your point, anyways.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:11 19th century telegraph companies were social medium platforms and given the status of message common carriers

Historians of technology and engineering often write that telegraph networks constituted the 19th century or Victorian Internet.

From the legal standpoint, the Internet/WWW is a minor upgrade to telegraph networks.

Hence the Internet/WWW has completely superseded telegraph networks. Telegraph social medium platforms provided message common carriage. Nowadays Internet social medium platforms substitute to provide message common carriage.

Naughty Autie says:

Re: Re: Re:12

From the legal standpoint, the Internet/WWW is a minor upgrade to telegraph networks.

The Internet maybe, but the World Wide Web was invented by Sir Tim Berners-Lee whilst working at CERN, meaning that it doesn’t fall under US laws regarding common carriers, or if it does, it doesn’t fall under US laws alone.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:15 Protocol Layers Rarely Make a Legal Difference

No one on the legal side cared much — voice common carriage law did not change — when the voice network switched from analog protocol to digital protocol — at least until VOIP appeared because packetized digital voice can constitute property that is transferred from a digital memory substrate on an originating computing device to a digital memory substrate on a destination computing device.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:15 Only One Person Refuses to Accept the Facts

A telegraph company carries digital personal literary property from an originator to a destination. A telegraph company provides common carriage service.

Twitter carries digital personal literary property from an originator to a destination.

The definition of common carrier is simple.

It holds out carrige
1. to the public
2. under uniform terms
3. for a fee.

You can continue to refer to the FCC’s definition telecommunications common carriage, but it’s irrelevant.

Telecommunications common carriage is a subset of common carriage.

There are information service common carriage, railroad cargo common carriage, railroad passenger common carriage, telex common carriage, email common carriage, telegraph common carriage.

The underlying technology does not matter.

AT&T, G-TEL, the RBOCs, and the GTOCs hold out common carriage. A telephone customer only deals with his local phone company, and except in the case of a local phone call, the local phone company does not control the completion of the circuit to the destination and has no control over voice transmission except in its own local network.

In contrast, Twitter controls both the origination of a tweet and also the delivery of the tweet through a Twitter program on each computer.

No telecommunications technology is a dumb pipe.

I can only think of one system of common carriage that can possibly be considered to use a dumb pipe — pneumatic tube mail. I could question that characterization.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:10 The Issue is Still Before the Courts

The whole point of litigation in the 5th circuit, the 11th circuit, and 1st circuit is to show that a social medium platform provides message common carriage service to the satisfaction of SCOTUS.

I have already put my case before SCOTUS once, but I was only introducing myself. I have at least 6 more bites of the apple, and Justice Thomas has sitzfleisch.

[I’m a procedural guru.]

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:12 I am not forcing any speech on anyone

  1. A major social medium platform is fun and profitable because it performs digital message common carriage. It must obey common carriage law.
  2. A social medium is within the vast state-supported establishment or facility of the Internet, which provides a place of public accommodation for research sharing. A social medium benefits from state support. It must obey public accommodation law and cease discrimination against groups within the US public.

Both assertions above are matters of the conduct of interstate and intrastate commerce. Each assertion is completely disconnected from any issue of the First Amendment.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:13

I am not forcing any speech on anyone

And yet, literally every one of your arguments is about forcing Twitter to follow common carriage law, which would absolutely force Twitter to host speech that is currently against the ToS⁠.

Also: Show me the law that says “asshole” is a protected class of people, such that Twitter can’t kick people off the service for being one.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:15

Why won’t you answer my question? I have posted it as a reply to you multiple times.

How can Twitter be end-to-end carriage when once a data packet leaves Twitter’s network, Twitter no longer has control of that data packet.

The local delivery of that data packet is handled by my ISP and my local network.

The USPS may deliver mail if I don’t check my mailbox, but they still use their own trucks to roll past my address and deliver mail.

Twitter does nothing of the sort in terms of delivering the packet of data to the destination device.

So again, answer me how Twitter can perform end-to-end common carriage when they lose complete control of a data packet once it leaves their network, and the remote delivery is handled by my ISP and my local network. In fact, I have never seen a Twitter truck delivering Tweets.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:16 I Keep Telling You. The Question is Irrelevant.

In days of POTS, we all requested voice common carriage from the local phone company. Except for a local call, the local phone company had no control over circuit completion and delivery of voice to the destination.

From the standpoint of the phone customer, he contracts common carriage. Neither the customer nor the law cares how the carrier fulfils the contract.

Whether in a packet-switched or in a circuit-switched network, the operation of the underlying technology is an irrelevant detail from the standpoint of the law.

You focus on irrelevancy
1. because you have no understanding of common carriage law and
2. because you seem to believe the Internet is magic.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:17

you have no understanding of common carriage law

…says the guy who thinks a one-sentence ruling with no explanation or reasoning behind it has a better shot of surviving review than does a multiple-page ruling that lays out the logic of said ruling in explicit detail with multiple legal citations and explanations of fact.

You’re also the guy who can’t answer One Simple Question: How can Twitter be an end-to-end common carrier when Twitter doesn’t control anything past its own end?

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:9

How can Twitter be an ‘end-to-end’ common carrier when Twitter only controls the source end of the communication (The 1st ‘end-‘).

The transit (the ‘-to-‘) and delivery (the 2nd ‘-end’) is not performed by Twitter.

So, no, Twitter is not an end-to-end common carrier.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:10 The Common Carrier Only Needs to Make the End-to-End Delivery Happen

It can hire or make use of existing agents or facilities.

It’s how end to end voice common carriage takes place in the circuit switched phone networks.

You are trying to deny long established common carriage caselaw because you don’t want to accept the truth.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:11

It can hire or make use of existing agents or facilities.

BUT TWITTER DOESN’T YOU FUCKING IDIOT!!!

Twitter does not hire or make use of existing agents or facilities, their carriage ENDS the moment data leaves their network.

THEY DO NOT CONTROL THE TRANSIT NOR DELIVERY AND THEREFORE ARE NOT AN END-TO-END COMMON CARRIER!!

Even though the facts may have hurt your feelz, they ARE FACTS that you can not just wave away as irrelevant.

You are trying to deny long established common carriage caselaw because you don’t want to accept the truth.

You are trying to pretzel twist something that is clearly not a common carrier into being a common carrier because you can’t accept the truth.

And you can’t accept the truth that you acted like a fucking asshole on Twitter and they gave you the boot. Basically telling you that you can take your garbage speech elsewhere.

And since there are other social media services, like Gab, Parler, Truth, why don’t you just go and use one of their services, where they will welcome you?

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:11

A common carriers relationship to a packet or message starts when they are given it with a delivery address, and ends when the deliver it to that address. They do not store for future reference, or index and organize packets, other than as required to deal with their transport and delivery.

A notice board on the other hand is a post a message here for others to see, and often rely on the owner of the board to actually place message on the board, and otherwise manage its use.

Now explain how Twitter meets the first definition, and not the second, as the mental gymnastics involves should provide for some amusement.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:12 Please Continue to Show Ignorance of Common Carriage Law!

A holds out common carriage:
to the public
under uniform terms
for a fee.

You are focusing on an instance not on the class.

Some common carriers hold for pickup.

Western union used to charge extra for delivery to a specific address. It was lower cost if WU called the recipient on the phone to come pick up the telegram at his local WU office.

Twitter a notice operation when I link to the Twitter home page. My followers are notified when I specify no @{username}. If I specify @{username}, @{username} sees the tweet when he links to the Twitter homepage.

If I see the tweet on my screen, it has been delivered by Twitter software and placed in a structure in the memory of my computer.

Twitter holds out carriage
to the public
under standard terms
for a fee.

It’s that simple.

Judges don’t card about the details of network communication just as judges never cared about the details of voice common carriage.

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:13

Twitter holds out carriage

False. Twitter doesn’t carry things; it hosts them. By your logic, a storage facility or art museum would be a common carrier, but they aren’t.

to the public

True.

under standard terms

Also true.

for a fee.

False. Twitter doesn’t charge a fee.

And no, “eyeballs on ads” is not a fee. A fee is exclusively monetary or a physical good.

As for the rest, suffice to say that you don’t actually understand how Twitter and similar services actually work at all.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:12

You love to pretzel twist everything you can think of just to fit your crazy ass narrative that Twitter is somehow a common carrier.

There is no financial transaction, implicit nor implied, between a user and Twitter. Period full stop!

Also, Twitter only controls the source end of the communications, the transit and deliver are NOT IN CONTROL OF TWITTER, therefore Twitter is not an end-to-end common carrier.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:10 Is a Social Medium a Charity?

I focused on “eyes-on-a-page” because it’s the more valuable item.

Let’s look at the whole picture.

Does a social medium platform provide a service for free?

What does a social medium receive in return for its service?

A user provides “eyes on a page” and “user content”, which will bring other “eyes to a page” to the website. To marketers and advertisers, “eyes on a page” and “user content” are valuable commodities.

Without the “user content”, most users would not come to the social medium webpage. Unlike broadcast TV social medium content is practically all user generated and handed over to the social medium in exchange for social medium services.

It’s like Nielsen Ratings and viewership. Viewership is much more passive than “eyes on page” and “provision of user content”. “Eyes-on-page” is provided to a social medium because the technology of a social medium collects all sorts of statistics on “eyes on a page” and use the statistics to increase the value of the social medium and its offerings.

Viewership ratings for broadcast TV belong to an independent agency.

Here is the nexus where the common carriage service, the blogging service (or more generally information mediation service), and the quasi-newspaper store service all intertwine.

Is it possible to be more oblivious than a fanatic, who denies in the face of reality that a social medium platform is a common carrier and not a charity?

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:8 A Fee can Be Barter or Work

A Twitter user exchanges “eyes-on-a-page” for carriage.

“Eyes-on-a-page” is a valuable commodity.

Twitter is a work-for-carriage or barter-for-carriage common carrier.

If Twitter wants to escape the fee prong of the definition of common carriage, it need only cease to monetize “eyes-on-a-page”.

Otherwise, Twitter is making a tremendous amount of money by common carriage. It must obey the common carriage law.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:9 That’s it, I’m summoning Shenron myself.

Read this. All of this. If you can provide as solid a foundation for your claim of “Twitter is a common carrier and must be forced to carry all speech” afterward, you should⁠—because saying “Twitter is a common carrier” over and over and over won’t actually make it true. You need to show us the exact and specific law, statute, or court ruling that directly and explicitly says Twitter is a common carrier. Anything less is bullshit.

Social media services are not public fora. Manhattan Community Access Corp. v. Halleck, a Supreme Court ruling from 2019 for which Justice Brett Kavanaugh wrote the majority opinion, doesn’t directly address social media but still provides the logic necessary to counter any “yes they are public fora” argument:

Under the Court’s cases, a private entity may qualify as a state actor when it exercises “powers traditionally exclusively reserved to the State.” … It is not enough that the federal, state, or local government exercised the function in the past, or still does. And it is not enough that the function serves the public good or the public interest in some way. Rather, to qualify as a traditional, exclusive public function within the meaning of our state-action precedents, the government must have traditionally and exclusively performed the function.

The Court has stressed that “very few” functions fall into that category. … Under the Court’s cases, those functions include, for example, running elections and operating a company town. … The Court has ruled that a variety of functions do not fall into that category, including, for example: running sports associations and leagues, administering insurance payments, operating nursing homes, providing special education, representing indigent criminal defendants, resolving private disputes, and supplying electricity. …

When the government provides a forum for speech (known as a public forum), the government may be constrained by the First Amendment, meaning that the government ordinarily may not exclude speech or speakers from the forum on the basis of viewpoint, or sometimes even on the basis of content[.]

By contrast, when a private entity provides a forum for speech, the private entity is not ordinarily constrained by the First Amendment because the private entity is not a state actor. The private entity may thus exercise editorial discretion over the speech and speakers in the forum. This Court so ruled in its 1976 decision in Hudgens v. NLRB. There, the Court held that a shopping center owner is not a state actor subject to First Amendment requirements such as the public forum doctrine[.]

The Hudgens decision reflects a commonsense principle: Providing some kind of forum for speech is not an activity that only governmental entities have traditionally performed. Therefore, a private entity who provides a forum for speech is not transformed by that fact alone into a state actor. After all, private property owners and private lessees often open their property for speech. Grocery stores put up community bulletin boards. Comedy clubs host open mic nights. As Judge Jacobs persuasively explained, it “is not at all a near-exclusive function of the state to provide the forums for public expression, politics, information, or entertainment[”.]

In short, merely hosting speech by others is not a traditional, exclusive public function and does not alone transform private entities into state actors subject to First Amendment constraints.

If the rule were otherwise, all private property owners and private lessees who open their property for speech would be subject to First Amendment constraints and would lose the ability to exercise what they deem to be appropriate editorial discretion within that open forum. Private property owners and private lessees would face the unappetizing choice of allowing all comers or closing the platform altogether. “The Constitution by no means requires such an attenuated doctrine of dedication of private property to public use.” … Benjamin Franklin did not have to operate his newspaper as “a stagecoach, with seats for everyone.” … That principle still holds true. As the Court said in Hudgens, to hold that private property owners providing a forum for speech are constrained by the First Amendment would be “to create a court-made law wholly disregarding the constitutional basis on which private ownership of property rests in this country.” … The Constitution does not disable private property owners and private lessees from exercising editorial discretion over speech and speakers on their property. …

A private entity … who opens its property for speech by others is not transformed by that fact alone into a state actor.

In 2020, the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals directly cited Halleck as part of the ruling in Prager University v. Google LLC, a case in which PragerU claimed YouTube was a public forum due to the ubiquity and the public-facing nature of YouTube:

PragerU argues that the pervasiveness of YouTube binds it to the First Amendment because Marsh teaches that “[t]he more an owner, for his advantage, opens up his property for use by the public in general, the more do his rights become circumscribed by the … constitutional rights of those who use it.” … PragerU’s reliance on Marsh is not persuasive. In Marsh, the Court held that a private entity operating a company town is a state actor and must abide by the First Amendment. … But in Lloyd Corp. and Hudgens, the Court unequivocally confined Marsh’s holding to the unique and rare context of “company town[s]” and other situations where the private actor “perform[s] the full spectrum of municipal powers.” …

YouTube does not fit the bill. Unlike the company town in Marsh, YouTube merely operates a platform for user- generated video content; it does not “perform[] all the necessary municipal functions,” … nor does it operate a digital business district that has “all the characteristics of any other American town[.]” …

YouTube also does not conduct a quintessential public function through regulation of speech on a public forum. … To characterize YouTube as a public forum would be a paradigm shift.

And in 2022, the Eleventh Circuit Court of Appeals cited Halleck as part of a ruling in NetChoice v. Attorney General, State of Florida:

Not in their wildest dreams could anyone in the Founding generation have imagined Facebook, Twitter, YouTube, or TikTok. But “whatever the challenges of applying the Constitution to ever-advancing technology, the basic principles of freedom of speech and the press, like the First Amendment’s command, do not vary when a new and different medium for communication appears.” … One of those “basic principles”—indeed, the most basic of the basic—is that “[t]he Free Speech Clause of the First Amendment constrains governmental actors and protects private actors.” … Put simply, with minor exceptions, the government can’t tell a private person or entity what to say or how to say it.

(To keep this copypasta from getting way too long for its own good, I suggest going to the relevant link and reading that article.)

So yeah, legal precedent says social media services are not public fora in the sense that they must host all legally protected speech. Anyone who wants to claim the law says otherwise has one hell of a (legal) hill to climb.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:11

Hey, Thors, you like apples? Here’s more from that Eleventh Circuit ruling, which specifically addresses the common carrier argument:

The first version of the argument fails because, in point of fact, social-media platforms are not—in the nature of things, so to speak—common carriers. That is so for at least three reasons.

First, social-media platforms have never acted like common carriers. “[I]n the communications context,” common carriers are entities that “make a public offering to provide communications facilities whereby all members of the public who choose to employ such facilities may communicate or transmit intelligence of their own design and choosing”—they don’t “make individualized decisions, in particular cases, whether and on what terms to deal.” … While it’s true that social-media platforms generally hold themselves open to all members of the public, they require users, as preconditions of access, to accept their terms of service and abide by their community standards. In other words, Facebook is open to every individual if, but only if, she agrees not to transmit content that violates the company’s rules. Social-media users, accordingly, are not freely able to transmit messages “of their own design and choosing” because platforms make—and have always made—“individualized” content- and viewpoint-based decisions about whether to publish particular messages or users.

Second, Supreme Court precedent strongly suggests that internet companies like social-media platforms aren’t common carriers. While the Court has applied less stringent First Amendment scrutiny to television and radio broadcasters, the Turner Court cabined that approach to “broadcast” media because of its “unique physical limitations”—chiefly, the scarcity of broadcast frequencies. … Instead of “comparing cable operators to electricity providers, trucking companies, and railroads—all entities subject to traditional economic regulation”—the Turner Court “analogized the cable operators [in that case] to the publishers, pamphleteers, and bookstore owners traditionally protected by the First Amendment.” … And indeed, the Court explicitly distinguished online from broadcast media in Reno v. American Civil Liberties Union, emphasizing that the “vast democratic forums of the Internet” have never been “subject to the type of government supervision and regulation that has attended the broadcast industry.” … These precedents demonstrate that social-media platforms should be treated more like cable operators, which retain their First Amendment right to exercise editorial discretion, than traditional common carriers.

Finally, Congress has distinguished internet companies from common carriers. The Telecommunications Act of 1996 explicitly differentiates “interactive computer services”—like social-media platforms—from “common carriers or telecommunications services.” … And the Act goes on to provide protections for internet companies that are inconsistent with the traditional common-carrier obligation of indiscriminate service. In particular, it explicitly protects internet companies’ ability to restrict access to a plethora of material that they might consider “objectionable.” … Federal law’s recognition and protection of social-media platforms’ ability to discriminate among messages—disseminating some but not others—is strong evidence that they are not common carriers with diminished First Amendment rights.

How do you like dem apples?

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:12 The Court of Appeals for the 11th Circuit Doesn't Understand the Cable Business

A cable business supplies the content. A user does not.

While a social medium ICS acts in many regards like the corner newspaper store, it also provides a separate common carriage service. The Court of Appeals is confused. Twitter had the same confusion, but Medium did not.

Nothing stops a book store or corner newspaper store from holding out common carriage service.

I explain in the Memorandum in Support of Motion for Reconsideration from p. 16, ¶ 35 et seq.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:13

A cable business supplies the content. A user does not.

…fucking what

a social medium ICS acts in many regards like the corner newspaper store, it also provides a separate common carriage service

No. No, it does not.

I explain in

Your legal filings aren’t legal precedent; citing your own bullshit as if it were won’t fool anyone here. Cite an actual law, statute, or court ruling that directly and explicitly says Twitter is a common carrier; relying on the Fifth Circuit ruling⁠—which didn’t explain at all how the court reached its ruling⁠—won’t help you here.

goddamn, how are you so bad at this, no wonder Massachusetts slapped your ass down

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:14

The bit about cable businesses supplying content perplexed me, too. Cable businesses are all about sending content from a source (other than itself) to its subscribers. Generally, it plays no role in actually creating or even modifying that content at all. There are exceptions, but that’s the general rule. I have no idea why he thinks otherwise.

And as far as Twitter providing a separate common carriage service, the closest thing that might fit that bill is DMs on Twitter, but even that is questionable. (No fee, for example.)

ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:15 I never said that a cable company makes the content

I visited a Comcast site 20 years. As I remember there were dedicated lines (sometimes Satellite links) to the providers like HBO or Showtime. The transmission was mostly digital, but it was unpacketized. Such transmission like analog voice transmission does not carry identifiable items — except I suppose — a completely movie or a complete episode of a series.

Broadcasting, Cable Casting, Information Services, and Telecommunications Services all have their own Chapters in Title 47.

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Mike Masnick (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:13

You explain it in your motion of reconsideration because your lawsuit got tossed out as garbage. https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.mad.236205/gov.uscourts.mad.236205.4.0.pdf

In that ruling the judge also explains to you why you’re wrong and social media websites are not common carriers.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:14 Someone can't read

The district court judge incorrectly used a voice common carriage precedent to rule that I had no monetary claim against a common carrier of digital personal literary property.

Hence my litigation continues in the Court of Appeals for the First Circuit. Twitter and Medium are desperately arguing against my claim because they understand what it means for me to prevail.

Twitter was aghast at the penalties that accrue in Massaschusetts for denial of common carriage.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:15

The district court judge incorrectly used a voice common carriage precedent to rule that I had no monetary claim against a common carrier of digital personal literary property.

“Incorrectly” only in the sense that you disagree with them because you’re looking to extort a shitload of money from a deep pocket because your ass apparently got banned from multiple social media sites for being a shithead. Am I in the ballpark here, hmm?

You’re not impressing anyone and you haven’t changed any minds about the common carrier argument. No one is buying what you’re selling and the regular commenters here aren’t exactly fans of ego-massaging court-abusing assholes like you. (To wit: Shiva Ayyadurai.) You can keep arguing here, but you’re not going to make anyone take your side…well, other than the trolls, anyway.

Twitter has every right to moderate speech on its platform. Twitter is not a common carrier. You’re gonna need a better argument than “nuh-uh to your uh-huh” to change minds around here on that matter⁠—and no amount of legalese will cover your lack of a solid argument.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:16 Twitter Does Not Do Voice Common Carriage

A precedent, which relates to voice common carriage, is irrelevant to my complaint. My complaint focused on message common carriage of digital personal literary property. Denial of common carriage of digital personal literary property is fully covered by the Massachusetts common carriage statutes.

If I can show that Twitter and the other five defendants violated the Massachusetts common carriage statutes, they should pay the penalties. Nothing else will deter them from future bad behavior. I will only keep enough to cover my costs. The rest of any award goes to Palestinian refugees. My relatives planned and led the genocide that white racial supremacist European Zionist colonial settlers started in Dec 1947. The genocide has never ceased, and my relatives continue to put 10s of millions of dollars into continuing the genocide. I am atoning for my family’s evil actions.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:21

The Eleventh Circuit ruling was garbage.

OK, so now you think you know better than the judges?

Christ, what an arrogant fuck you are.

It had no reason to be so long.

Why, because it so throughly destroys your arguments that Twitter is a common carrier, that you wish it were shorter so you could find some loop holes to try and weasel you way through?

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:22 HB 20 is Formulated Correctly

(3) social media platforms function as common carriers.

This assertion from SB 7072 is at best poorly stated.

6) Social media platforms hold a unique place in preserving first amendment protections for all Floridians and should be treated similarly to common carriers.

The First Amendment is not at issue. Only conduct needs to be addressed.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:12 Most Federal Common Carriage Cases Are Litigated in the DC Circuit

I used to do a lot of work on common carriage litigation in the DC Circuit.

The Court of Appeals for the 11th Circuit makes a completely specious argument against placing a social medium platform in the category of common carrier.

Each service, which an entity provides, must be analyzed to determine whether the entity is a common carrier with respect to the service.

The last paragraph

Finally, Congress has distinguished internet companies from common carriers. The Telecommunications Act of 1996 explicitly differentiates “interactive computer services”—like social-media platforms—from “common carriers or telecommunications services.” … And the Act goes on to provide protections for internet companies that are inconsistent with the traditional common-carrier obligation of indiscriminate service. In particular, it explicitly protects internet companies’ ability to restrict access to a plethora of material that they might consider “objectionable.” … Federal law’s recognition and protection of social-media platforms’ ability to discriminate among messages—disseminating some but not others—is strong evidence that they are not common carriers with diminished First Amendment rights.

shows ignorance. The federal government recognizes that an interstate common carrier can be other than a telecommunications common carrier. Such a non-telecommunications common carrier can be regulated by some entity other than the FCC.

An interstate trucker, maritime, or river freighter is a possible example of a non-telecommunications common carrier, which the federal government may regulate outside the FCC.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:10 I don't assert that a social medium is a public forum

I assert that a social medium must obey common carriage law if it provides common carriage service.

Congress can change this principle by explicit statute if it wishes. It has not done so.

A common carrier can deny common carriage to a user that is demonstrably disrupting the service.

In the case of my fiancée and Twitter, my fiancée has not been demonstrably disrupting the service. She is denied common carriage by Twitter, because she tweets while non-white, while Palestinian, while Arab, and while Muslim.

I am denied common carriage by Twitter
1. because I love her and
2. because Zionist Twitter users become livid at the thought of miscegenation between a Palestinian and a Jew.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:13

I hired an agency to profile the people responsible for termination of our Twitter accounts.

And there it is.

You got kicked off of Twitter for being an asshole and now you are trying to force your way back on by any crazy ass idea you can think of.

You’re like that person who shows up at your party, pisses all over the kitchen floor, then gets mad when you get kicked out. And you act even more childish when you are told you are no longer allowed back into the party.

Pro Tip: Don’t act like a fucking asshole and you won’t be kicked off Twitter.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:11

I assert that a social medium must obey common carriage law if it provides common carriage service.

Assert it all you want; until you have a court ruling in your favor, saying “this is the law” doesn’t make it the law.

She is denied common carriage by Twitter, because she tweets while non-white, while Palestinian, while Arab, and while Muslim.

Prove Twitter suspended/banned her or deleted any of her tweets explicitly and specifically because of her ethnicity/religious creed.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:12 More than Enough Evidence is Available to Make a Clear and Convincing Case for Twitter Discrimination

We have compiled our own evidence, and there is much more evidence from other interested parties.

I may be among the small number that fully understands the full scope of Zionist machinations.

Until I was outside the Mosque of Abraham on Purim 1994 when Baruch Goldstein spree-murdered worshipers there, I was a Zionist and worked with a number of Zionist organizations.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:13

You still haven’t answered my question as to how Twitter performs end-to-end carriage when once a data packet leaves Twitter’s network, Twitter no long has control of that packet.

In fact, Twitter does absolutely NOTHING in terms of delivering a packet to the remote-end, that is handled by my ISP and my local network.

So again, how does Twitter do end-to-end carriage?

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:14 Inability to Understand Legalese

The District Court would have been telling me to fuck off if it had dismissed with prejudice.

The District Court merely told me that it was unwilling to underrule Appeals Courts. Few District Courts are willing to make underrulings, and such Courts have good reason not to do so.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:15

The District Court merely told me that it was unwilling to underrule Appeals Courts.

Your disagreement with standing legal precedent is not enough, on its own, to overrule that precedent⁠. And since the District Court didn’t see any reason in your suit to overrule that precedent…well, you’re kinda fucked, especially since nothing you’ve been saying here is enough to convince even a dumbass like me. If you can’t get me on your side, what hope do you have of convincing a court of law that your bullshit isn’t…well, bullshit?

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:18 Let's Start Simple!

  1. Do you accept that a business can offer a service, which is common carriage, and a service, which is common carriage? [Quasi-Common Carriage]
  2. Do you accept that the government can make it unlawful for a restaurateur to refuse to serve a non-white? Doesn’t such a law infringe freedom of expression? [Unlawful Public Accommodation Discrimination]
  3. Do you accept that the government can make it unlawful to discriminate among whites and non-whites in private or contract carriage? Doesn’t such a law infringe on freedom of expression? [Unlawful Civil Rights Discrimination]
  4. Do you accept that the government can make it unlawful to discriminate among white and non-white in common carriage? Doesn’t such a law infringe on freedom of expression? [Unlawful Common Carriage Discrimination]
Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:19

Do you accept that a business can offer a service, which is common carriage, and a service, which is common carriage? [Quasi-Common Carriage]

I have read that 10 times, and what the fuck are you trying to say? You repeat the same thing twice, like it’s different the second time you say it.

And just point 1, points 2, 3, and 4 are essentially saying the same thing…

So seriously, what the actual fuck are you talking about?

But, to talk about discrimination, asshole is not a protected class that can be discriminated against.

So no matter how much you think it was discrimination, it wasn’t.

It was you being an asshole on somebody else’s property and them showing you the door as they don’t want assholes like you on their property.

Zero discrimination — except against assholes, but hey, assholes are not a protected class.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:20 I am hunting for a way to explain US and state law

Quasi-common carriage has been around for decades, but Professor Rob Frieden seemsto be the first scholar to have highlighted the phenomenon. See Rob Frieden, The Rise of Quasi-Common Carriers and Conduit Convergence, 9 I/S J. L. & POL’Y 471 (2014). You are not ready to read this article. The other three questions refer to three very different areas of anti-discrimination law. Only common carriage law makes it unlawful to deny service to an asshole. It might be possible to explain each of the three areas to you, but I have consider how one might provide the explanation.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:20 I Don't Have to Prove to You that Twitter Provides a Common Carriage Service

Your mind seems to be made up.

I have to prove to SCOTUS that Twitter Provides a Common Carriage Service.

I use the hosting service that Blogger and WordPress provide. They leave me alone to do what I want with my blogs. Each blog is a pure web journal. I post content and occasionally solicit content. The comments are all sent to me first for approval, and I decide what will appear. It’s the letter to the editor model of a print journal. Neither I nor Blogger nor WordPress does common carriage on my blogs.

Twitter provides the following three services.

The DM service is common carriage.

The Tweet service is common carriage.

The Microblog hosting service at first impression seems more comparable to Blogger or WordPress hosting service because Twitter holds out
1. to any member of the public that Twitter will carry tweets of a microblog owner to any user, whom the microblog owner approves and who requests access to the microblog owner’s tweets,
2. under uniform terms,
3. for a fee.

Yet unlike the tweet service scenario of composing and sending a tweet, the microblog owner did not request carriage.

Twitter’s behavior with respect to microblog service is discriminatory and unlawful not under common carriage law but under civil rights law and public accommodation law because Twitter discriminates in performance of contract and in providing a place of public accommodation for exhibition and entertainment.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:21

You still have one major hurdle to overcome.

You have yet to explain how Twitter can be an end-to-end common carrier when it DOES NOT CONTROL both ends of the communication.

Twitter only controls the source end of the communication. The transit and delivery is NOT UNDER THE CONTROL of Twitter.

Since Twitter does not control the transit nor the delivery, how do you expect anybody to believe your crazy notion that Twitter is an “end-to-end” common carrier.

And that is not something you can just wave away as irrelevant as it is very relevant, it proves that Twitter is not end-to-end.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:22 Twitter Supplies Programs that Run on the Source Computing Device and the Destination Computing Device

Twitter delivers the tweet, which is supplied by the source, to the destination.

Twitter did not even argue against me when I pointed out that it carried out end to end common carriage.

Twitter claimed the CDA provided that the CDA provided blanket immunity from common carriage law even though the statute nowhere explicitly mentions common carriage.

I had the opportunity to carry out careful linguistic analysis of the relevant statutes and caselaw.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:23

Twitter did not even argue against me when I pointed out that it carried out end to end common carriage.

That’s because they didn’t have to you fucking idiot, it doesn’t matter if you really really really wish it were true, it isn’t, and §230.

§230 100% protects their moderation choices.

And seeing how you are acting in this comments section, I can understand why Twitter kicked your ass out…

You are just another typical fucking asshole and they want nothing to do with you!

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:21

I use the hosting service that Blogger and WordPress provide. They leave me alone to do what I want with my blogs.

Except their terms of service include:

If we reasonably believe that any of your content (1) breaches these terms, service-specific additional terms or policies, (2) violates applicable law, or (3) could harm our users, third parties, or Google, then we reserve the right to take down some or all of that content in accordance with applicable law. Examples include child pornography, content that facilitates human trafficking or harassment, terrorist content, and content that infringes someone else’s intellectual property rights.

Also Blogger and word press operate the same as other social media, they provide a platform on which you can post content that others can view. They differ in that readers have to visit individual blogs, rather than seeing a consolidated feed provide by a platform. That is they have different models of how notice boards should work, but they are still notice boards.

Note, the important point the platforms whether Blogger or Twitter, provide a notice board on which you can post notices. They do not offer to deliver it to a particular destination, and are note done with handling your content on delivery.

That is a common carrier has a transient relationship with whatever they are carrying, and once delivered they are finished with your message or package. Social media and bogs etc are place you publish your content in the hope that others are interested enough in it to look at it.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:22 Confusing the Interaction Abstraction With the Performed Operation

The Tweet gets onto the Destination Computing Device because Twitter’s program,
1. which Twitter downloads to the Destination Computing Device and
2. which transiently exists in the destination computing device only exists in the computing device memory transiently,
puts the tweet into Destination Computing Device Memory.

The Notice Board is a model or an abstract idea. One could consider the Notice Board an element of an elementary form of virtual reality that makes Twitter’s tweet service usable.

The ISP does not put the Tweet into Destination Computing Device Memory.

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That One Guy (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:13 'Commodity' does not 'work' make

Apparently you’d not the greatest at reading comprehension so I’ll try again with a little more emphasis this time to highlight the important bits. What work does the user perform in exchange for their ability to use the platform?

‘More users means advertisers are likely to pay the platform more’ doesn’t cut it as the user isn’t doing anything other than existing on the platform in that scenario, so what work are the users doing beyond having accounts and bumping the user count up?

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:14 Distinction Between User and a Bot

A social medium user looks at the webpage. Most bots don’t. Hence Musk’s concern about bots.

A Court rationally analyzes arguments without prejudice.

A social medium user navigates a webpage. A TV viewer is a passive viewer.

From the marketing standpoint a social medium user does work, and a social medium platform with often spend a lot of money in human factors analysis to entice a user into doing more work.

Please upgrade your mind to the 21st century.

That One Guy (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:15 It just keeps getting funnier

Bloody hell are you working overtime to get those funny votes. Looking at a page counts as work? Damn but you are desperate to avoid having to drop that rubbish argument, but by all means keep digging, this is comedy gold.

Now if you’ll excuse me I’m going to clock in and go do some work at the local grocery store, so much stuff to look at while shopping.

Naughty Autie says:

Re: Re: Re:15

A TV viewer is a passive viewer after actively deciding to switch on the TV, actively choosing which channels and programmes to watch, and actively making these decisions throughout the viewing period.

Not quite the point you thought you were making, is it? To put it in your parlance: please upgrade your mind to reality.

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Naughty Autie says:

Re: Re: Re:17

Once a viewer selects a channel, they passively view it.

Correct. Once a viewer selects a channel, they simply sit there, taking in the information until the programme they’re watching has ended, never deciding to switch over even if greatly offended by the content. /s

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Naughty Autie says:

Re: Re: Re:19

You are nitpicking.

No. You are drawing an artificial distinction between physical activity and mental activity because to do otherwise is to admit that you have no argument. To clarify that they are highly similar concepts is far from ‘nitpicking’, and only an ignoramus like you doesn’t understand that.

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bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:9

And viewing content is not “work” when part of what Twitter offers its users is the ability to view content. If there is an art museum open to the public for free, even if it has ads posted around the museum, it does not become a common carrier because the viewer is not offering to view stuff in order to view stuff.

Also, the ToS don’t require the user to view any ads at all in order to use the service. Sure, they may be sent to me, but if I never scroll down, no ads actually show up, so no eyeballs on the ads. As such, in this scenario, I’m not offering any eyeballs-on-ads, yet Twitter has no rules against not viewing ads, so there’s no such exchange.

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James Burkhardt (profile) says:

Re:

I thought regulation of the censorship of conservatives* was the point of the bill, not transparency requirements that are either completely meaningless or a moving target that will result in endless litigation and still do nothing to curb the censorship of conservatives*?

*I do not agree conservatives face more censorship over political affiliation than other political groups, but I concede the point simply for the sake of discussing the claim that this was a loss for Mike on “the most important issues”.

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Mike Masnick (profile) says:

Re:

So Mike loses on the most important issues and pretends that winning on hosting candidates is a victory. Got it.

I mean, first off, I’m not a party to the lawsuit, so I didn’t win or lose anything.

But, second, this is some amazing spin, Choozy. Judge Newsom, who you praised repeatedly in our comments, saying how he, as a Trump appointee, was absolutely going to uphold all of Florida’s law, literally dismantled nearly every argument you regularly make here.

He destroyed the very core of the bill. He destroyed the must carry provisions. He destroyed (and even mocked) the common carrier claims, which you have repeatedly insisted were obviously sound. He ripped apart the claims regarding forced explanations, which you insisted, repeatedly, were easily something a state could require under something you ridiculously called “contract law.” He completely dispatched with both FAIR and Pruneyard.

The only parts of the law he left in tact were very minimal, minor parts, ones that you had NEVER EVEN MENTIONED in your hearty support of the law, and now you want to pretend those were the “most important parts” of the law.

You may be an idiot, Chozer, but I assure you the people reading your nonsense are not.

Also, all he did was send those parts back on remand. For the most part, the earlier briefing didn’t go deep on those points, so there was a lot less briefing for the court on them. They may still be struck down on remand (though at least it’s a closer call) and if these pieces survive, everyone but you and Ashley Moody recognize Florida lost big here. And embarrassingly so.

But, rest assured, Chozey, you can spin all you want, but no one anywhere in this world believes you.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Some Clarification

Interstate rail transport service is a federally-regulated common carriage service, but it is not an FCC-regulated telecommunications common carriage service.

If a company, which owns a railway line, opens a restaurant on a train, the restaurant comes under the CRA of 1964 and not under federal railway common carriage regulations.

Separate sets of laws and regulations govern:

  • a common carriage service,
  • a telecommunications common carriage service,
  • a public utility service,
  • a broadcast service,
  • a cable service, and
  • a natural monopoly service/public franchise service.

A company may offer a plurality of services, and each service may belong to a different category.

A company may offer a service that fits into a plurality of categories.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re:

Can you cite a law, statute, or “common law” court ruling that says common carriage law explicitly applies to social media services such as Twitter? Remember: Your opinion is not a citation of law⁠—and the ass you pull your opinion from is neither a court nor a legislative body.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: The 11th circuit judges are confused

A service can provide common carriage service even if it does not meet the definition of federal telecommunications common carriage service. I had to explain this point to Twitter in the Court of Appeals for the First Circuit. (See Appellant’s Reply to Appellee’s Brief of Twitter)

Common Carriage

Twitter evinces a common confusion among those with little familiarity with Title 47 and the associated caselaw. In the context of Title 47, the FCC, the Court of Appeals for the DC circuit, and the Supreme Court of the United States often refer to a telecommunications common carrier by the sloppy shorthand phrase “common carrier”.{1} From the standpoint of the FCC and Title 47, an interstate trucker, which holds out common carriage, is not a (telecommunications) common carrier.

Footnote
{1} Joachim admits he often used this sloppy shorthand when he worked at AT&T on FCC filings for tariffing and for other telecommunications common carriage issues. There is no shame when someone not experienced with telecommunications law is unfamiliar with the epistemic vocabulary of federal telecommunications law. The areas of telecommunications technology and of telecommunications law have their own peculiar jargons, which can be strange to people, who are only familiar with the Internet/WWW.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

Your legal filings are not legal precedent unless a court says they are. Has a court said they are? If so, cite the court ruling. If not, shove your filings back up your ass and cite an actual, factual, directly-on-point law, statute, or court ruling that directly and explicitly says Twitter is a common carrier.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Article I, Section 9, Clause 3

Article I, Section 9, Clause 3

No Bill of Attainder or ex post facto Law shall be passed.

No federal or state law explicitly declares FedEx to be a common carrier, but it is because it meets the definition. Twitter meets the definition.

The law codes from the 19th century refer to common carriers of messages and don’t distinguish the carriage of a message on paper from the carriage of a message by electronic means.

The Civil Code of the State of California: Adopted March 21, 1872 is a typical example, but I have seen a reference in court decisions and in law codes to common carriers of messages by electronic means back to the 1850s. If I search UK law, I would probably find a reference to a common carrier of messages back to the 1840s. Telegraph systems started earlier in the UK than in the USA.

A tweet is a message. Twitter is a common carrier of messages. The initial Twitter service started on SMS and not on the Internet. Twitter provided common carriage on top of SMS. When Twitter moved its service to the Internet/WWW, did the service cease to be common carriage of messages?

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re:

Twitter meets the definition.

Just because you wish it so, does not make Twitter a common carrier.

Can you even state one argument in favor of classifying Twitter as common carrier?

  • Who is forcing you to use Twitter?
  • What regulations exist that require you to use Twitter?
  • Considering phone calls and package deliveries are a one-to-one exchange, how can you classify a one-to-many exchange as common carrier?
  • Are you going to Tweet the fire department if your house is on fire?

Seriously, try to make one valid argument that Twitter should be a common carrier other than you want it to be.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Stop Confusing a Public Utility or Public Franchise Common Carriage

Did you ever hear of mass mailing? It’s a common carriage service.

I wrote many of the AT&T FCC filings that related to NxM common carriage services. In the 80s AT&T was already offering common carriage services that corresponded to Twitter’s services. AT&T provided these services both via circuit-switched technology and also via packet-switched technology.

It’s a misconception to believe that the Internet/WWW sprang into existence de novo in 1989. I was there when Leonard Kleinrock began in 1959 to conceive of the network that became the Arpanet, which evolved into the Internet. Others had the same idea.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:

Did you ever hear of mass mailing? It’s a common carriage service.

Again, tell me how does that apply to Twitter? Mass mailings are still private mailings between one party to another. Just because 1000s of mailings are identical, does not in any way make it like Twitter.

You keep wishing that Twitter should be regulated like a common carrier, but have given ZERO specific reasons why.

Again, Twitter is a curated service that attracts uses because of its moderation efforts, and it is as large as it is precisely because of its moderation efforts. Change the way Twitter operates will undo years of moderation efforts.

And no, AT&T did NOT have a service like Twitter. Period, full stop.

If you take a look at the network stack, why should the upper application layer be common carrier where there are an infinite number of applications that can use the network stack? As you go lower on the network stack, then the choice of how the data is routed goes down to just one or two services, ie cable internet or telco internet.

And again, what regulations require Twitter to be used? Does the fire department need to monitor its Twitter feed for emergency Tweets? Do the police take emergency Tweets? How about an ambulance, are you going to Tweet somebody if you are having a heart attack?

Do you see how ridiculous all this sounds when you take it to the logical ends?

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:3

Do you know how the Internet and a networked computing device works?

So tell me then genius, how can a person that never uses Twitter, does not have an account, nor visits their site, can receive and or create a Tweet?

Just because my computer is connected to the same internet as Twitter’s servers, does not mean I need to interact with Twitter in any way whatsoever.

People who don’t use Twitter, but are still connected to the internet, NEVER need to interact with Twitter to use the internet, so how is that common carriage?

It sounds like you have no clue how applications, the internet and networked computing devices operate.

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