Locksmiths Pissed Off At Geeks For Letting Out The Secret: Lockpicking Is Easy
from the without-the-internet,-we'd-all-be-safe dept
As I've mentioned before, back in high school, I had an art teacher who taught me both how to pick locks and how to make lockpicks (it was a fun class). Since then I've always been fascinated by the whole process of picking locks, though I haven't kept up with the field or even picked a lock in years. However, there is a huge community of folks online -- many coming from the tech/hacker community -- who spend a lot of time exploring lockpicking, and talking about it in great detail online. And, as Gizmodo notes, this is pissing off some locksmiths. What's not stated overtly is the obvious reason, and it's the same for any professional system that requires "certification." It's rarely about making sure people are good enough, but has everything to do with limiting the competition to keep fees high. The locksmiths aren't really so worried about criminals learning how to pick locks online (even though some claim that). They're worried that people won't need to call locksmiths anymore when they get locked out of their homes. On top of that, the lock companies hate to admit that their locks are pickable (they are), and so they hit back at those who prove it, just as software companies hate to admit that their software has vulnerabilities. Over time, perhaps locksmiths and lock companies will recognize that an enthusiastic hobby community that helps make sure locks are more secure can only be a good thing.
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Word!
Right on bro!
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What secret?
You only need to lock yourself out once to see how ridiculously quick and easy it is to pick a lock.
All you need is the right tools. And look there you dont even have to make them your self - right here on this page Ads by Google have conveniently pointed out where to buy them!
Reading the article "Google co-founder Sergey Brin recently gave the pastime a further boost, confessing that he has been a picking enthusiast since he was a student."
It all becomes clear: It's a conspiracy!
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The sixties just called, they want their texfiles back..
Hasn't lockpicking been part of geek/hacker culture since way back before teh intarweb?
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This is the third comment.
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I never found lockpicking particularly easy :(
But yeah, it's not something that takes years and years of training to get. It may take years and years of practice to do *really well* (there are competitions for lockpickers where they open locks as fast as possible, some of them are actually pretty scary to watch), but no need to waste $100 on a locksmith callout if you lock your door behind you.
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interesting but they were not really pissed
if you read the article you see there is one story about a guy who went to a locksmith shop and tried to get some info. who knows how he presented himself there but im kinda thinking the locksmith was in the rightm for asking him to leave. the other lockmsiths are not so much pissed really, they just seem to acknowledge yeah it will hurt their businesses and yeah maybe the wrong people will get this info....
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Knowledge is Dangerous
This kind of knowledge is Too Dangerous for ordinary mortals. The World is Not Ready for it. If it doesn't say "Locksmith" in your job description, this kind of information can Destroy you and turn your Brain Into Jelly.
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As you say, the right tools
I learned to pick locks with bent bits of metal, self taught, after taking them apart. Then a mate in the business showed me a 'gun'. Yeehah. The ultimate tool. Like you say, its not rocket science . .
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Lockpicking
Locksmith's have to face reality, where there's a will there's a way. So what if Geeks let out the secrets to lock picking, that should make companies that make locks for our security at home start using the few marbles in their heads and start coming up with some better locks so that we can feel safe!
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Just Like the Garage Door Install / Repair Industry
I needed new springs for my garage door and everyone said it was so dangerous and I had to have a professional do it, not true at all. It took us about 2 hours and it was a little harder than changing a tire. I have the feeling most niche trades like this are also trying to limit the competition and keep prices elevated.
Don't fear the garage door...I lived to tell about it
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Re: What secret?
You only need to lock yourself out once to see how ridiculously easy it is to get an extra key and keep it someplace safe and readily available.
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Re: Just Like the Garage Door Install / Repair Industry
Have you ever had a mechanic replace your break pads and then the next time did it yourself? That's a quick way to feel ripped off.
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Doesn't Follow
"Over time, perhaps locksmiths and lock companies will recognize that an enthusiastic hobby community that helps make sure locks are more secure can only be a good thing."
By that logic, we should welcome virus writers, data thieves, and malicious hackers as a "good thing" because they help make operating systems more secure.
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Re: Re: What secret?
And unless its a two-bit theif they only have to watch you for about a week to find out where you keep it if you don't have it in the obvious places like ontop of the door jam or under the welcome mat or in a 'hide-a-key' fake rock, or near a lawn gnome or other decorative object....
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Depends on the lock
While most front door locks are mass produced, sloppy fit, huge tolerance junk, some locks are precise works of art. I'm not saying they can't be picked, it would be however, time consuming & require above average dexterity. A construction firm owner owned my house previously, and some of my passage doors have near vault quality locks. I was for a while apprenticing as a locksmith for a while, and we re-keyed my house as an exercise, some of those locks were amazingly close tolerance.
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Re: Just Like the Garage Door Install / Repair Industry
So true, most people are either lazy or feel that because they don't have a "qualification" they can't do something.
Bit like my mate who ended up paying £90 for a plumber to tighten a leaky valve. He sure felt like an idiot when it took a wrench and 30 seconds.
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Re: Re: Re: What secret?
True, he'll also know where you hide your tinfoil hat!
How many days will a non-two-bit thief have to watch you for the ONE DAY you lock yourself out and go for tie hide-a-key? lol. C'mon. Or hide one in your car.
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Re: Re: Just Like the Garage Door Install / Repair Industry
I've done 2 garage door springs, and it isn't a walk in the park. It is doable by a skilled DIYer, but the tension required could hurt you bad if you got in the way of an accidental release. I'm just saying....
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You forgot to reference the who fiasco with the kryptonite bike locks that could be opened with the barrel of a BIC pen. The publicity resulted in a recall and a better lock. Much better for everyone involved.
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i've always said
If I wanted to break into a house I would back a truck into the side of it. For the most part it's just sheet rock and siding.
Back your truck into and then drive off after the back the truck is loaded. Then drive off.
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I actually feel for the locksmiths here. If people realised how much of my A+ Certification training consisted of stuff I'd already figured out on my own just from working with a home computer and being too penniless to hire a repair guy, I'd be out of a job!
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Re: Doesn't Follow
To virtuadept:
Uh, no. We should welcome security enthusiasts who probe systems, find vulnerabilities and publish their results, not virus writers, etc. You're lumping people with no malicious intent (lockpicking enthusiasts) in with people who are malicious. Your analogy is wrong.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: What secret?
Remote, keyless entry FTW!
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Re: Doesn't Follow
I would say a more correct analogy would be to say that we should welcome amateur firewall writers and antivirus creators. If there were than more than three or four companies would be used at everyone's homes.
Symantec is the quickset of the anti-virus world and most people don't realize anything but them and McAfee exist. If we had more anti-virus companies perhaps symantec and McAfee would work more on making computers secure and less on features that slow it down with no improvement in real security.
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Re: Doesn't Follow
Your comment is completely off base. Virus writers, data thieves, and malicious hackers would be akin to vandals and burglars, not lock-picking hobbyists.
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Re: Re: Just Like the Garage Door Install / Repair Industry
Ever changed your brake pads only to discover that you really should have taken it to a mechanic because the pads weren't the problem the rusted/busted brake line and caliper were at fault?
My dad owned a diesel repair shop that I worked at when I was younger and I can teach you how to change your brake pads but I can't teach you to diagnose; that only seems to come from years of experience. I can diagnose a ton of cars simply by the noise they make or a combination of other symptoms, without opening the hood usually: spun bearing, rod knocking, valve chatter, burning oil, rich fuel mixture, blown head gasket, etc. all came from years of experience, not reading about it online or in a book.
I'm not saying that you can't do that yourself but there's a reason you pay a mechanic and they only laugh if you get in the middle of a repair job and then have to take it to them to fix everything you broke trying to fix it. Really, they do.
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Re: Just Like the Garage Door Install / Repair Industry
You're right, it's not that dangerous with the right tools and a little patience. The problem is when Joe Homeowner eyes that big screw and says, "That'll fit..." and proceeds to have his hand nearly ripped off and the screw drive lodged in the opposite wall. Like many things -- safe if done right, bad news if done wrong.
PS - here's a hint, instead of the screw drivers try a couple of 3/8 inch by 2 foot steel rods and walk the tension off the spring one notch at a time. The rods should be snug in the whole and make sure that you sink them in completely before trying to move spring.
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DumbA$$
You subscribe to the whole, "Let's publicize security holes for Operating Systems because it makes it safe" bullcrap.
The reason Locksmiths don't want dumbasses like you publishing how to pick a lock is, locks are there for a reason. To keep dumbasses like you out of other peoples stuff.
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Re: Re: Just Like the Garage Door Install / Repair Industry
My apologies for the absolutely awful spelling/grammar in my last post. That's what you get to typing and talking at the same time.
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Re: Re: Just Like the Garage Door Install / Repair Industry
It's not about how simple it is, it's having the knowledge to determine the problem and solve it. Plumbers know pipes, locksmiths know locks, and techs know computers. Based on some of the comments here, put things into perspective.
I'm not a plumber, but I'm not a moron either. I could have a leaky valve, but it might take me hours to diaganose which valve is leaky, and then take the proper steps resarching to know whether it just needs tightening, or whether it needs replacing. It may just be a simple leak, but you call in the people with experience because you want it done quick, and you want it done right.
I'm not a mechanic, but I can replace break pads myself. However, I still usually have a mechanic do it, as if there is an error in installation, I have an avenue of recourse, rather than just blaming myself for trying to take the cheap way.
Finally i'm not a locksmith, so if I get locked out of my house or car, I'll call one, rather than look up how to pick a lock on my web enabled cell phone.
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Re: Doesn't Follow
Actually, besides your hyperbole there, yes, you should learn to be a virus writer or the like because it gives you insight to how a virus writer thinks. How do you think that security expert get their knowledge? It's surely not by sitting around and talking about how you *think* it works with your friends who work can't use a computer.
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New Lock version 2.0
So if "geeks/hackers" start publishing how to pick locks, and it forces the lock companies to create better locks, does that mean the lock companies will start issuing service packs and security updates for their locks?
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Re: DumbA$$
Security by obscurity doesn't work. I want a lock that keeps my stuff safe not because locksmiths are keeping a secret of how easy it is to lockpick, but because its actually difficult to do so. The best way thats going to happen is to find the vulnerable locks (which locksmiths don't want to do, because it makes their job more difficult) by having *lots* of people trying to pick them. You're reasoning is flawed. I don't want it a secret of how to pick my locks. I want it to just be impossible to pick my locks (obviously, impossible is stretching it, but you should get my point).
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Re:
Ahh, the A+ certification, the laughing stock of training certifications. I'm sure that a lot of people put stock in those things but I get more business by pointing out to potential customers that, as you pointed out, most of it is learned by anyone who is willing to tinker even the slightest with their computer, instead I point out that I've been involved with the computer industry for 25+ years. By contrast, my father, who is definitely not a tech, could pass A+.
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Re: Doesn't Follow
By that logic, we should welcome virus writers, data thieves, and malicious hackers as a "good thing" because they help make operating systems more secure.
We do. HOBBY virus writers don't wreck chaos, they write a virus and send it to the av companies. HOBBY hackers are actually called security consultants.
but obviously you'd so much like to argue with mike that you cant see the difference between responsible hobbies and malicious hobbies.
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Before the Internet...
There were books, you could find them in libraries.
Books like In The Steal Of The Night which is about
auto repossession and lock picking.
Some people thought this was dangerous and fussed
about it. Others worried that it would harm their
guild. It did neither and I suspect the internet will
have much the same effect, very little. I realize
that the internet is easier than going to a library.
So the impact may be marginally greater.
Even so most people who enjoy lock picking as a hobby
have no interest in committing a crime. I've never
liked crossword or jigsaw puzzles but mechanisms
fascinate me. Locks are generally small and not too
difficult to solve, so I like locks.
Very often, and criminals know this, the door jams are
a weaker point than even a lousy lock. They'll just
pry between the door and jam then the door pops open,
knock the door off the hinges, or use a big slip joint
pliers on the lockset.
I can't recall hearing of a burglary or home invasion
where the lock was picked. It's something I'd expect
coupled with surveillance activities. So the "criminals"
who are most likely to pick the lock already have acess
to the information.
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Strange noones mentioned it..
But I actually keep an old hotel card key and my insurance card in my back pocket at all times because of how valuable they have historically been when I needed a door unlocked. (each has their own str/agi stats, some doors require a very flexible card, while with others, the rigidity of the card is the most useful asset to open the door.
Obviously, this doesn't work with deadbolts, but its ridiculously easy to open most doors that aren't deadbolted.
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Re: Strange noones mentioned it..
Just like in the old secret agent movies...
That is a good trick, not as useful these
days. Modern entry sets have a little pin
at the front of the latch that prevents
it from being depressed if it is pushed
in first (a deadlocking plunger.)
But there are still a lot of old locks in
use.
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Re: Re: Re: Just Like the Garage Door Install / Repair Industry
I knew I was going to piss of a mechanic by saying that.
Last I saw, a locksmith's job included, but not limited to, picking locks. That is just a small part of their job. When it comes to building locks or determining what kind of lock is best to secure special places, I'd pay an expert. Picking locks is just a small part, just like replacing break pads or shoes.
When it comes to break pads, it's kinda easy to tell that you only have 3mm of pad left and they need replaced. If I broke a piston rod or cracked the engine block, I'd call a mechanic.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: What secret?
I don't think any thief, two-bit or otherwise, is going to sit in front of a house for weeks, months or possibly years waiting for someone to lock themselves out. Even thieves have better things to do with their time, like find houses with doors that aren't locked at all.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Just Like the Garage Door Install / Repair Industry
For the love of God, people, it's BRAKE, not break.
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Re: i've always said
Exactly that happened to one of our branch offices. Thieves drove a truck through the side wall of the building, loaded everything they could on the truck, and then drove off. And that building had cinder block walls.
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Re: Doesn't Follow
"Over time, perhaps locksmiths and lock companies will recognize that an enthusiastic hobby community that helps make sure locks are more secure can only be a good thing."
"By that logic, we should welcome virus writers, data thieves, and malicious hackers as a "good thing" because they help make operating systems more secure."
How very wrong you are virtuadept. He said that "an enthusiastic hobby community" made things better - he didn't say that the breakers and enterers did. People who write viruses to expose vulnerabilities and then inform people about it ARE helping - because there's someone else out there who will write it and NOT TELL ANYBODY so that it ends up costing millions of dollars. The people who know how to pick locks don't want you to know how easy it is either - they want you to think you are safe while they break in to your house. The people who are telling us how easy it is are trying to help - exposing a flaw for all to see so that they know how to fix it.
Shut up. Please.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Just Like the Garage Door Install / Repair Industry
Unless your car is extremely valuable, a cracked engine block wouldn't warrent a call to the mechanic, it'd warrent a call to a dealer - get a new car.
Hahaha.
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It's all about the know how.
A luxury cruise ship was stranded off the coast, they had been sitting dead in the water for 2 days trying to repair the engines with no luck. Anxious to keep the passengers happy they decided to hire a specialist and fly him out to the ship via helicopeter to get the engines fixed and get the ship moving again.
The specialist arrived and went to work, while the Captain and the ship mechanics watched and waited in anticipation. He removed what appeared to be a stethoscope from his bag and started placing it on the engine and listening as he rapped on the side with his knuckle. After about 10 minutes of this, he said, "Ahh Ha", removed a ballpeen hammer from his bag and tapped the engine twice quickly in the spot he had marked with his knuckle. The engines, which had been on, but not turning or doing anything, immediately sprang back to life and started running.
The Captain was ecstatic, until the specialist demanded his payment of $50,000. The Captain said I can't justify paying you $50,000 for 20 minutes of work without an itemized billing, besides all you did was tap the engine with a hammer, anyone could have done that.
The specialist presented his bill and received his full payment:
Cruise Ship Engine Repair:
$10.00 - Tapping Engine with Hammer
$49990.00 - Knowing where to Tap the Engine
Knowledge is valuable, and some people feel that restricting knowledge increases it's value, when in reality it only increases an individuals ability to monetize that specific knowledge. As the above 'story' illustrates, if everyone shared the same knowledge pool, there would be no need for a specialist, just as if everyone knew how to pick locks, there would be little need for locksmiths (there will always be some need, I know how to change the oil in my car, but I'd still rather pay $20 and have someone at 'Jiffy Lube' do it for me).
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One of the oldest documents on the Internet is MIT's Guide to Lockpicking by Ted the Tool. This is nothing new.
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Why are you paying a professional
Ask yourself this: why are you paying a professional to do a job? Are you paying for his service (which you could do yourself) or are you paying for his expertise and experience in the field?
Like poster #45 illustrated with his story, professionals are the ones who know how to diagnose AND repair the item.
In the case of fixing your brakes: such you could it yourself, but maybe a mechanic will find that your brakes lines need replacing and you need more brake fluid.
By changing the brakes yourself, you might save a little money, but by not adding brake fluid, you could be risking your life.
The bottom line is what these locksmiths are complaining about: yes, people can pick their own locks, get over it. Instead, they need to market themselves as "release experts" or something similar.
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Re: Re: Doesn't Follow
If we had more anti-virus companies perhaps symantec and McAfee would work more on making computers secure and less on features that slow it down with no improvement in real security.
No, we would have more companies writing virus' to justify their existence. /tin foil hat
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Lock Picking
I've been in the locksmith business for 24 yrs and I never hear a locksmith get upset because some learned to pick locks.
i have been asked if i could sell pick sets and I turn them down because I'm not in the tool selling business but I do point them to Google search.
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Re: Knowledge is Dangerous
Um...what?
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Is all this so?
"IF you outlaw guns, ONLY outlaws will have guns."
In case anyone here didn't know, there have been books about 'lock picking' available for MANY years in the back of magazines. These books taught all there was to know about 'lock picking' at the time. Heck, most of this information is still good.
The lock companies are just as slow as the government about updating their wares.
THEN, when they DO, They charge an arm and a leg for the new tech.
I wonder why people still bother to 'pick a lock'....
Hmmm....
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Re: locks/certification
Certification as in A+ is not about teaching you anything
but to prove you do have a specified level of knowledge
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Just Like the Garage Door Install / Repair Industry
For Gawd's Sake - it's spelled BRAKE. You have BRAKES on your car but when you misspell, you BREAK my balls!
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Emergency call
Be kept out of doors? In case of emergency, pls remember this Free Roll number(800)-707-0432, which is supported by ServiceLockSmith.com.
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