Man Charged With Uploading Simpsons Movie He Filmed With His Mobile Phone

from the and-how-much-damage-did-it-do? dept

Last month, we noted that while the Simpson's Movie was widely available online to be downloaded, it appeared to do little to dampen the enthusiasm for going to the theater, as the movie did amazingly well in the theaters. However, that hasn't stopped the entertainment industry from continuing to freak out. Raymond L writes in to let us know that, down in Australia, a man has been charged with being the first person to upload a copy of the movie for downloads. The entertainment industry makes it sound like this was a huge deal, but neglects to mention the commercial success of the movie, which suggests there weren't many people who used the downloaded version as a substitute for the real thing. Also, the article says that the man used a cameraphone to record the movie, which (if true, it seems hard to believe that he had enough storage to record the whole thing) has to make you wonder about the quality of the movie anyway. So, we appear to have a case where a guy filmed a very bad version of the movie and put it online -- which probably didn't make many people stay away (and, in fact, may have encouraged many people to go to the theater). But, of course, the entertainment industry doesn't want to hear any of that. They just want the guy in court.


Reader Comments (rss)

(Flattened / Threaded)

  1.  
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    Ansia, Aug 17th, 2007 @ 11:16am

    The law.

    They did what they were expected to do. Even if the quality of the movie was very bad and just few people saw it from the internet, the law says that it's phohibited to do what the poor guy did. Maybe next time he will think twice before uploading a movie!

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Aug 17th, 2007 @ 11:21am

    So what?

    He recorded a movie in the theater. It doesn't matter how well the movie did, or that nobody will download his crappy version. I'm the first to say down with the RIAA and the entertainment industry's outdated business model, but this guy clearly broke a very reasonable rule. If I steal $1 million from a bank they'll hardly feel it relative to their astronomical profits. Does this mean it's ok? Sure, stealing money is different than making a copy of a movie, but the principle is the same.

     

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    ac, Aug 17th, 2007 @ 11:30am

    omfg

    Camming with a cell.... omfg.

    There has to be a new level of hell for someone that would release that. ;'(

     

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    Nacho Cheezy, Aug 17th, 2007 @ 11:31am

    Re: So what?

    I totally agree. Just because there's no harm doesn't make it not a crime. When you "you people" learn to obey the law??

     

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    Brian, Aug 17th, 2007 @ 11:32am

    The law is the law

    While we all may hate these laws, they are still on the books. Instead of complaining, people should get off their lazy asses and get the laws changed!

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Aug 17th, 2007 @ 11:36am

    What I want to know is if it was filmed in Netherlands, Germany or the USA... nevermind, I stopped caring as soon as I read "the man used a cameraphone to record the movie".

     

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    jj, Aug 17th, 2007 @ 11:41am

    I smell a TV episode

    worthy of a Simpsons Episode plot - hmm, Homer gets busted for filming the Itchy and Scratchy Movie... Flanders and Mo save the day.

     

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    Sean, Aug 17th, 2007 @ 11:42am

    dumb-bunny

    While I usually find myself in almost total agreement with what I read here, this isn't one of those times.
    I think there's a difference between breaking a law because it's criminally stupid and restrictive (like breaking copy protection so I can put my purchased music wherever I want to hear it) and breaking a law just because you can or just because you want to. This reminds me of the girl who got busted taking video of the Transformers movie; if you KNOW that what you're doing is against the rules, and you still do it IN A PUBLIC PLACE, then have fun with the fines, etc.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Aug 17th, 2007 @ 11:45am

    I find it extremely obnoxious when someone has their cell phone out in the theater for whatever reason. the light alone is distracting enough.

    How about throwing him in jail for being a jerk to those around him?

     

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    Mike C., Aug 17th, 2007 @ 11:46am

    More details...

    1) Filming was supposedly done in Australia by a 21 yr old man from Prairiewood on July 26 using his "video-capable mobile phone"
    2) Supposedly was able to capture the entire film.
    3) Video was uploaded to a file sharing site in the US where approximately 3000 downloads were made before it was removed.
    4) "The files were uploaded to other sites, and it is estimated that within 72 hours the video had been downloaded 110,000 times around the world."

    ... and my favorite quote of all!!!

    5) "...and in all probability, copied and sold as a pirate DVD all over the world," AFACT executive director Adrianne Pecotic said.

    ... and finally

    6) The young man's house was raided, computers taken and he was given a notice to appear in court in October.


    Info found by searching via Google using the AFACT director's name + "Simpsons" and found other news stories.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Aug 17th, 2007 @ 11:57am

    Re: So what?

    I'm the first to say down with the RIAA and the entertainment industry's outdated business model,
    I doubt that.

    Sure, stealing money is different than making a copy of a movie, but the principle is the same.
    That's what the copyright cartels would like to make people believe but it simply isn't true.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Aug 17th, 2007 @ 11:59am

    Re: Re: So what?

    When you "you people" learn to obey the law??
    Who here are you accusing and what is your evidence? Or are you just an industry troll?

     

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    Jaqenn, Aug 17th, 2007 @ 12:08pm

    Bad logic

    I normally have a lot of respect for your writing Mike, but I just can't back this bit up:

    The entertainment industry makes it sound like this was a huge deal, but neglects to mention the commercial success of the movie, which suggests there weren't many people who used the downloaded version as a substitute for the real thing.

    It suggests no such thing. They can't point at X Million dollars and claim that it "should" have been higher. You can't point at X Million dollars and claim that it "shouldn't" be higher.

    You can tell exactly nothing about the effect that the cell phone recording had on the commercial success of the movie by examining box office revenue - there's no alternate reality to compare it to.

    Give me anecdotal evidence? Sure. Show me surveys that show that people who watch cell phone recordings still go see the movie? Sure. But don't point to the cash flow, show that it's still moving, and claim that you can spot a variance of a few percent.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Aug 17th, 2007 @ 12:15pm

    On a technical note, with a decent video camera feature and a 1GB or larger micro SD card that can be directly recorded to with the phone, this might actually be possible. But I also believe this is a clear copyright violation, and should be dealt with accordingly. Just because you CAN do something doesn't mean you SHOULD do it, and if you do, you must be prepared to face the consequences of your actions.

     

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    Killer_Tofu (profile), Aug 17th, 2007 @ 12:15pm

    Re #7 dumb bunny

    You must have not read the whole article about the girl who got busted at the Transformers deal.
    She only recorded about 10 seconds just to show her brother that she was there.
    I somehow doubt that recording 10 seconds is worth jail time.
    OH WAIT! I WOULD use a 10 second clip instead of seeing the movie, that would certainly keep me satisfied. NOT!
    She was in no way harming them. No way at all.
    They say no recording of film, she was taking pictures of herself. Chances are you couldn't even see the whole screen because she was in the way, but they didn't mention that in the article I read. But yah, she should have in no way been taken out or fined or anything for that. It was only 10 seconds.

     

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    Brian, Aug 17th, 2007 @ 12:15pm

    Re: Re: Re: So what?

    Why is that when someone shows a modicum of sense or understanding for an industry viewpoint around here, they are automagically an "industry troll" or a "shill"? Like the first poster, I'm all for standing up to the RIAA for it's BS TTPs (tactics, techniques, and procedures), but this guy clearly broke the law and knew it. I love reading this site but some of the extremist intellectual property anarchists around here get old. I advocate people writing their elected officials every day but stress the need to obey the law in the meantime. Everytime somebody pulls this crap, it plays right into their hands and it allows them to hold it up and say "see, we told you so."

     

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    Chris, Aug 17th, 2007 @ 12:38pm

    Who Cares?

    The promotional DVD version of the Simpsons just hit the net this week (or so I hear). So you can get the DVD quality version instead of cam quality now, much less camera phone quality. None of this would even be a problem if they just started selling the DVDs on the same day the movie comes out in theaters. But no, they want to sell you the same movie twice. Then get you to upgrade to Blu-Ray or HD-DVD and buy it again.

     

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  18.  
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    Larry, Aug 17th, 2007 @ 1:04pm

    I feel the same way

    Its stealing. No different than taking something from a grocery store. Its stealing, its wrong, and anyone who does it should be punished.

     

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    RandomThoughts, Aug 17th, 2007 @ 1:12pm

    A special place in hell for capturing a film on a camera phone? How about a special place in hell for anyone that would want to watch a film captured by a video phone.

    That being said, some of the posters are exactly right on a few points. You can't say that the phone copy didn't hurt the number of people who actually paid to go see the movie. You also can't say that it is just industry propaganda that copyright laws are bogus.

    Be careful what you ask for, are you sure you would want to live in a world free of copyright or patent laws?

    Chris, I understand your frustration, but if the studios released the DVD on the same day as the movie comes out, the theater owners would revolt because they know their revenue would drop.

     

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  20.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Aug 17th, 2007 @ 1:21pm

    Re: I feel the same way

    There are quite a few holes in that argument. It's quite aggravating to see that this is the general consensus of copyright infringement among the public.

    If it were no different than stealing then it wouldn't be called copyright infringement.

    With that said. It does appear this person knowingly broke the law. He filmed the entire movie and then uploaded it on the internet. Did it do any harm? Probably not. Are the penalties too harsh? Yes. But it is still a very clear cut case of infringement (NOT THEFT!). I have little sympathy for this guy.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Aug 17th, 2007 @ 1:44pm

    They just want to make an example out of this dude. You know the video and audio quality HAD to be crappy, so it's definitely not going to make any fans not want to pay to see the movie.

     

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  22.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Aug 17th, 2007 @ 1:44pm

    As someone else said people should really start complaining to their government officials about the bullshit laws against filming in cinemas. The worst you should get for filming is explusion from the cinema and confiscation of the film.

    The fact you can go to prison and be fined thousands and thousands of pounds is just rediculous.

    Stand up for yourselves you dumb yanky idiots.

     

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  23.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Aug 17th, 2007 @ 1:50pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: So what?

    Why is that when someone shows a modicum of sense or understanding for an industry viewpoint around here, they are automagically an "industry troll" or a shill"?
    Well, when you to a forum and start accusing posters of being criminals for, apparently, just posting opinions contrary to the industry line then that paints you in a suspicious light.

    I love reading this site but some of the extremist intellectual property anarchists around here get old.
    You and Nacho Cheezy (if not one and the same) appear to be the extremists if you think those who disagree with you are criminals for doing so.

     

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  24.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Aug 17th, 2007 @ 1:57pm

    Re:

    Be careful what you ask for, are you sure you would want to live in a world free of copyright or patent laws?
    Yes.

    RandomThoughts defends shilling.

     

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  25.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Aug 17th, 2007 @ 2:07pm

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDe8HGKKMhc

    Someone posted 10 seconds of The Simpsons Movie (2007) to YouTube.com

    According to the entertainment industry's views, Why dont they sue Google instead? ...Google owns YouTube.com and also has money.

    /end extremist comment.

     

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  26.  
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    RandomThoughts, Aug 17th, 2007 @ 2:15pm

    Stand up for yourselfs you dumb yankee idiots? Uhhh, wasn't the guy arrested in Australia?

     

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  27.  
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    RandomThoughts, Aug 17th, 2007 @ 2:22pm

    So AC, you want no patents? You still think companies would invest a billion dollars to come up with a new drug that cures cancer if they knew the day after they went to market someone else would copy it and bring the same drug to market a month later?

    As a consumer, I want cheap prices. As an investor, I want maximum profits. As an inventor, I want the right to profit off of my inventions. How do we square all this? I agree, patents, copyright and other things is not the end all to be all, but investment chases return. Without return, who will bother to invest in R&D? Karl Marx was pretty much right and a lot of his thinking is coming true today, the world is a different place. When all is said and done, you still have to reward innovation, you have to reward great inventions, not everything can be based on services. Industries can be, but that can't be the only thing going.

     

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  28.  
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    ROFL, Aug 17th, 2007 @ 2:37pm

    Re: Re: So what?

    "You people" so you just like to lump people together huh?

    OBEY THE LAW!!!!!

    SIEG HEIL RIAA!!!!!

    when will "you people" being lazy ass forum trolls learn to STFU!!!!!!!!!

     

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  29.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Aug 17th, 2007 @ 2:44pm

    Re:

    So AC, you want no patents?
    Yep, and I have some myself.

    You still think companies would invest a billion dollars to come up with a new drug that cures cancer if they knew the day after they went to market someone else would copy it and bring the same drug to market a month later?
    One of the most important drugs of all time, penicillin, was brought to market with no patent protection whatsoever. Companies bring things to market all the time that they can't patent. Nowadays they spend more marketing their brand and discouraging doctors from prescribing non-patented drugs than they do "inventing" new ones.

     

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  30.  
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    nimblybimbly, Aug 17th, 2007 @ 2:52pm

    yeah dude, this article is weak.

    1)
    "umm, they made hella sales, so obviously this guys piracy had no effect."
    wrong. people pirate Micro$oft Office, and they still have hella sales. Do you honestly think people get a pirated copy, and then go buy the real thing?

    2) the quality was bad
    yup. your point?

    all this having been said, your point about phone memory is great. I've never heard of a phone that takes longer than 10 second clips. it's not even the drive space that's an issue (i've got two gigs). it's the actual ram. phones can't write to flash fast enough, so they take the video to RAM (small, maybe 12 megs). then, slowly, they write from RAM to the flash. not in realtime recording-speed.

     

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  31.  
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    Charles Griswold, Aug 17th, 2007 @ 3:03pm

    Re: Re: So what?

    When you "you people" learn to obey the law??
    I dunno . . . maybe when lawmakers stop making stupid, arbitrary laws. There are so many bad laws on the books, so many bad lawmakers in office, and so many bad law enforcement officials that I long ago lost any respect for "the law". Instead, I go by a personal moral code of doing no harm.

    For instance, alcohol is legal and pot is illegal. People who are intoxicated on alcohol can be quite irrational and even violent. People who are intoxicated on pot tend to eat Twinkies and giggle. Personally, I would rather see someone get really stone on pot than really drunk on booze.

    In short, screw the law.

     

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  32.  
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    John, Aug 17th, 2007 @ 3:28pm

    Wait a minute...

    I'll admit that I haven't been following cell-phone technology, but can a "video enabled cell phone" (or however they put it) really record an entire 88 minute movie?
    What is the memory capacity of the standard cell phone? What is the quality of the video being recorded: the lower the quality, the less space it will take up on the card.
    And if cell phone (still) cameras still can't compete with digital cameras, why does anyone think that the quality from a cell phone video camera can even come close to a regular video camera? Oh, that's right- the point is that a "pirate" got caught, not whether he actually had technology that was capable of doing what people claimed it could do.

    And yet, the movie industry isn't going after screeners who will release DVD (or HD-DVD) copies of the movie to the p2p sites. Then again, we should probably thank the MPAA for helping to get the crappy, camcordered versions off the p2p sites. ;)

     

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    Copyright Champion, Aug 17th, 2007 @ 3:53pm

    Re: Re: Copyright

    A world with no copyright?

    Imagine you're Aerosmith... no longer do I have to write songs!! Just send out a team of guys to clubs, and steal whatever songs I want!

    While I'm at it, I'll just rebroadcast HBO over the internet. That'll show HBO... no need to pay! Free Sopranos!

    Then, I'll start a business printing copies of Harry Potter for 50% off the price at the store. Heck, I think I'll even change the ending!! Mine's better!!

    Next, I'm going to create a new MP3 player (well, I'll just buy one from China)... put a nice shiny Apple logo right on the back... no one will know the difference!! Suckers! It's the new iPod!

    And last, but not least, I'm going to download a copy of Photoshop, and resell it for $99. I know I can be rich that way. Why put 20 years of effort into writing software... that's just a waste of time in no-copyright land!!

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Aug 17th, 2007 @ 4:04pm

    Re: Re: Re: Copyright

    Next, I'm going to create a new MP3 player (well, I'll just buy one from China)... put a nice shiny Apple logo right on the back... no one will know the difference!! Suckers! It's the new iPod!

    If you're going to go around proclaiming yourself "Copyright Champion" then you should at least learn the difference between copyright, trademark and fraud. Otherwise you just look like an ignorant fool.

     

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  35.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Aug 17th, 2007 @ 4:07pm

    Re: Re: Re: Copyright

    Why put 20 years of effort into writing software... that's just a waste of time in no-copyright land!!
    Nah, nobody would EVER do that! Guess you never heard of GIMP, BSD, Linux, Firefox or any one of thousands more, huh?

     

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  36.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Aug 17th, 2007 @ 4:22pm

    Re:

    people pirate Micro$oft Office, and they still have hella sales. Do you honestly think people get a pirated copy, and then go buy the real thing?
    People making illegal copies for personal use is what made Microsoft's software popular in the first place. Even M$ knows this which is why they still turn a blind eye to it in some developing foreign markets as a way of establishing market dominance. So yeah, piracy can even be helpful in some situations.

    By the way, you're aware that M$ got into the software business with a copy of someone else's operating system to start with, aren't you?

     

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    Mike (profile), Aug 17th, 2007 @ 5:20pm

    Re: So what?

    I'm the first to say down with the RIAA and the entertainment industry's outdated business model, but this guy clearly broke a very reasonable rule.

    I'm just asking why is it a reasonable rule. I'm not saying he didn't break the law. I'm just asking why it's the law when the impact of the breaking of the law is tiny, if anything, and the punishment is high. That seems unfair.

    If I steal $1 million from a bank they'll hardly feel it relative to their astronomical profits. Does this mean it's ok? Sure, stealing money is different than making a copy of a movie, but the principle is the same.

    No, that's quite different. There's a huge difference between a scarce resource (money) and an infinite good (content).

     

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    Mike (profile), Aug 17th, 2007 @ 6:57pm

    Re:

    Be careful what you ask for, are you sure you would want to live in a world free of copyright or patent laws?

    Yeah, actually. If you look at the evidence, you would see that such a world turns out to be a better place with more innovation and more content. So... yup. I certainly would.

    Look at the history of places like the Netherlands when they got rid of patents, and innovation boomed. Look at folks like Verdi who created many more works when there was no copyright, then when copyright was put in place and he could rest on his laurels.

    You are making assumptions that simply don't hold true.

     

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    Mike (profile), Aug 17th, 2007 @ 6:59pm

    Re: Bad logic

    It suggests no such thing. They can't point at X Million dollars and claim that it "should" have been higher. You can't point at X Million dollars and claim that it "shouldn't" be higher.

    Indeed. It could have been higher. But the point is that the industry makes out these doom and gloom scenarios, insisting that if people can download a movie, they won't go see it in the theaters. This is pretty clear evidence that's not true at all. This movie was available everywhere online based on most reports. Yet millions still went to see the movie.

    The point is that the damage done isn't nearly as bad as the industry implies.

     

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  40.  
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    Mike (profile), Aug 17th, 2007 @ 7:07pm

    Re:

    So AC, you want no patents? You still think companies would invest a billion dollars to come up with a new drug that cures cancer if they knew the day after they went to market someone else would copy it and bring the same drug to market a month later?

    This is a red herring. First of all, as we've pointed out before, pharma patents are a relatively new phenomenon, and plenty of countries that didn't have patent protection for pharma had thriving pharma industries, including creating new drugs. So, your claim that this wouldn't happen is bogus.

    Second, studies have shown that pharma patents tend to lead research in the wrong direction, away from curing cancer and more towards lifestyle drugs.

    Third, much of the important pharma breakthroughs have actually come from university research, rather than through industry in their desire to secure patents.

    Fourth, even if someone else could copy the drug, it doesn't mean there aren't business models that would make the original cancer drug maker a ton of money. You just need to understand the economics.

    Fifth, without patents on pharmaceuticals, there would be greater emphasis on finding alternative cures for things that don't rely on pharma. Read Andy Kessler's "The End of Medicine" to see why the focus on pharma has seriously hurt many other types of cancer research that could do a much better job in saving lives.

    As a consumer, I want cheap prices. As an investor, I want maximum profits. As an inventor, I want the right to profit off of my inventions.

    The first two are reasonable, the last is not. You don't have a "right to profit." No one has. You have a right to *try* to profit. That doesn't mean creating artificial scarcity and granting you a monopoly. Just because YOU aren't creative enough to understand the economics and come up with a business model that doesn't involve artificial scarcity, it doesn't mean you need gov't protectionism.

    I agree, patents, copyright and other things is not the end all to be all, but investment chases return. Without return, who will bother to invest in R&D?

    You make a HUGE incorrect assumption here: that without IP protection there's no return. Sorry, it's simply not true. It's never been true and studies have shown how incredibly wrong that is. So, investment does occur, because there ARE returns -- and the returns can actually be much BIGGER without IP protection, because you learn to leverage the infinite goods to make other things more valuable.

    When all is said and done, you still have to reward innovation, you have to reward great inventions,

    Yes. And there's no reason you need monopoly protection to do that. Get rid of that assumption, because it's wrong.

     

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    RandomThoughts, Aug 17th, 2007 @ 9:15pm

    Mike, I just don't understand how you can actually believe what you write. It confounds me. If you knew anything about the pharmaceutical industry, you would understand that patent protection is needed.

    Where exactly in the world does a country have a booming pharmaceutical industry where patents are not protected? Italy isn't one of them. UK isn't, Germany. Where are the big drug companies? Lets see, Glaxo pretty much moved to the US, Novartis is pretty much here, Sanofi-Aventis is here. India? Uhhh, the used to ignore patents but realized that in order to move upstream, they needed to protect the investment in R&D so they now recognize patents.

    You tell me how the economics of no patents work for the pharmaceutical industry. A billion dollars to bring a drug to market (most of the cost in clinical, not research, which is why no university has ever brought a drug to market) so if there is no patent, then a generic company copies the drug and has the exact same drug on the market in 6 months. Who would invest that billion dollars?

    As for the miricle drugs that were brought to market with no patents, what is keeping people from doing that today? Absolutly nothing. Some brilliant researcher could be out there doing the research and is free to forgo patent protection. Guess what? It hasn't happened recently. Wonder why? Dr. Saulk did it, but it hasn't happened lately.

    As for there being money for alternative treatements, what, that isn't in place today? I always wonder why people wonder why drug companies don't fund studies on healthcare other than drugs? Ummm, maybe because thats not what they do and others do that type of research?

    Andy Kessler? He has some great ideas, but I don't see what that has to do with the pharmaceutical industry. Again, he is talking about things that are at the beginning stages, stages with appear before the pharmaceutical industry gets involved. Diagnostics is becoming more and more important, but a lot of work has to be done in this area. Genetic screening has great potential, but we are a long way away from personalized medicine. Even with that, pharmaceuticals will still be needed. Something simple like exercise programs would greatly increase the health of people, but again, nothing is keeping people from doing that now and thats not the pharma's job. Kesslers main point is that you reduce healthcare costs before people get sick. I agree with that, but people will still get sick. Pharmaceuticals will be a part of treatement for a while.

    I have to wonder if you are trolling on some of these topics, you are bright, so that may be the case. If not, you tell me how companies can invest billions in research without expecting big returns?

     

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  42.  
    identicon
    dosquatch, Aug 18th, 2007 @ 12:10am

    Re: So what?

    I'd like to think that if they were actually industry shills, they'd know that this falls under the MPAA and not the RIAA. I'd also hope the industry would hire a shill with a stronger competency in English.

     

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  43.  
    identicon
    dosquatch, Aug 18th, 2007 @ 12:13am

    Depends on the cameraphone

    Mike wrote: used a cameraphone to record the movie, which (if true, it seems hard to believe that he had enough storage to record the whole thing)

    Depends on the camera. With a fresh memory card, my Treo could pull it off. I'm not saying the result would be all that pleasant to watch, but it is possible.

     

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  44.  
    identicon
    |333173|3|_||3, Aug 18th, 2007 @ 5:41am

    Re: More details...

    Well, I know for a fact that there are copies from some other source (not screeners, full DVDs) available, which mean that hardly anyone will be downloading his crappy version. OTOH, i hate people with their phones out in cinemas, so I think he should cop the fine just for being both stupid (getting caught) and obnoxious.

     

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  45.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Aug 18th, 2007 @ 9:25am

    Re:

    I have to wonder if you are trolling on some of these topics, you are bright, so that may be the case.
    So now you're calling Mike a troll? LOL, that's funny but not expected coming from a shill who just thinks that everyone does it.

    If not, you tell me how companies can invest billions in research without expecting big returns?
    Why should he tell you something that he obviously doesn't believe? That's the kind of thing shills like yourself do. Your implication that he said such a thing is just another of your dishonest practices and with someone like you arguing in favor of patents I'm now more convinced than ever that they are a bad thing.

     

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  46.  
    identicon
    Advocate, Aug 18th, 2007 @ 2:50pm

    Re: Re: So what?

    You just blatently replaced the entire point of the law, to prevent harm, with the rule of law, making you perhaps the most perfect example of pure evil ever to exist in this society.

     

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  47.  
    icon
    Mike (profile), Aug 18th, 2007 @ 4:38pm

    Re:

    Mike, I just don't understand how you can actually believe what you write. It confounds me. If you knew anything about the pharmaceutical industry, you would understand that patent protection is needed.

    Needed? That's provably false. It wasn't needed in the past. Why is it "needed" today?

    Where exactly in the world does a country have a booming pharmaceutical industry where patents are not protected? Italy isn't one of them. UK isn't, Germany. Where are the big drug companies?

    Ah, see now you're the one being misleading. First, countries like Italy *HAD* thriving pharma industries, until the big pharma companies from OTHER COUNTRIES lobbied hard to have the laws changed. Now the pharma industry has collapsed.

    Secondly, "where are the big drug companies?" It doesn't have to be BIG drug companies. In fact, without patents, what Italy saw was a much more competitive market of numerous small to mid-sized companies, rather than large monopolists.

    You tell me how the economics of no patents work for the pharmaceutical industry. A billion dollars to bring a drug to market (most of the cost in clinical, not research, which is why no university has ever brought a drug to market) so if there is no patent, then a generic company copies the drug and has the exact same drug on the market in 6 months. Who would invest that billion dollars?

    Yes, it takes a billion dollars, and much of that is clinical, but you seem to be misunderstanding the situation as if that's necessary. The *problem* is the fact that it costs nearly a billion dollars in clinical tests before a drug is approved. That's got nothing to do with patents, it has to do with serious problems with the regulations we have in place. There is no incentive to create cheaper methods for proving the efficacy and health of treatments. The reason it costs a billion dollars is BECAUSE of bad gov't policies, and your solution is MORE gov't policies? Sorry, don't buy it.

    Guess what? It hasn't happened recently. Wonder why?

    Because hiding behind gov't protectionism is easier. But that doesn't mean it's better.

    He has some great ideas, but I don't see what that has to do with the pharmaceutical industry. Again, he is talking about things that are at the beginning stages, stages with appear before the pharmaceutical industry gets involved.

    Then you clearly didn't read his book. Come back after you have.

    If not, you tell me how companies can invest billions in research without expecting big returns?

    Heh. This is like that guy from NBC Universal who asked me to explain how the movie industry should spend $200 million to make a movie. The answer is that you're asking the wrong question. Shouldn't you be asking *why* it costs a billion dollars to bring a drug to market?

     

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  48.  
    identicon
    obilesk, Aug 19th, 2007 @ 8:09am

    yanky idiots

    Oh so now I'm an idiot for being a citizen of a country that happens to have some ridiculous laws. It is taking time but those of us who care ARE fighting back...so keep your nationalistic bias to yourself.

     

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  49.  
    identicon
    RandomThoughts, Aug 19th, 2007 @ 4:15pm

    Mike, your healthcare plans are nice but very far in the future. Without patents today, many people would die. Your solutions are just not possible today. Drugs are but your solution would kill people in the meantime. As for your many small competitive drug companies, they don't bring all that many drugs to market because they can't afford the clinical trials. Without the big "monopolists" (which I find it funny to believe that there are any) since none of them have over 15% market share of the drug market) again you wouldn't have new drugs.

    As for hiding behind govt. protection? You mean like the FDA approving drugs? That protection? Yeah, lets get rid of that.

    Oh, and it costs billions of dollars to prove the drug safe. You want to turn that over to computerized models? Maybe Google can work that one out. The FDA isn't perfect, but it is the best system available today. Underfunded of course (funded mostly by drug companies) but lets remember why it was put in place. People say that the FDA approves too many drugs too quickly and people say they are too slow to approve drugs, its not an easy thing to do.

     

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  50.  
    icon
    Mike (profile), Aug 19th, 2007 @ 5:00pm

    Re:

    Mike, your healthcare plans are nice but very far in the future.

    That's an odd assumption, since it's based on plenty of historical evidence.

    Without patents today, many people would die.

    Actually, there's pretty good evidence of the opposite. A recent study out of India found that India's latest decision to start allowing pharma patents is likely to end up hurting Indians tremendously. So, actually, (once again) it looks like the evidence goes against you.

    s for your many small competitive drug companies, they don't bring all that many drugs to market because they can't afford the clinical trials.

    Again, you make the false assumption that clinical trials need to cost as much as they do. Stop thinking that. It's the same thing as thinking that a movie has to cost $200 million to make.

    Without the big "monopolists" (which I find it funny to believe that there are any) since none of them have over 15% market share of the drug market) again you wouldn't have new drugs.

    Again, you make assumptions without anything to back it up. History has shown the exact opposite.


    As for hiding behind govt. protection? You mean like the FDA approving drugs? That protection? Yeah, lets get rid of that.


    No. You misread what I said. I'm not sure if you're doing that on purpose or if you have trouble reading. The protectionism I was talking about was patents. Granting an absolute monopoly to a company.

    My point on the FDA approving drugs wasn't to get rid of it, but to change the process.

    Oh, and it costs billions of dollars to prove the drug safe.

    It does now. With the way it's done now. But it doesn't need to.

    The FDA isn't perfect, but it is the best system available today.

    Based on what? How many other systems have we tried?

    You make an awful lot of assumptions, none of which seem backed up by data. Try again.

     

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  51.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Aug 19th, 2007 @ 6:18pm

    Re:

    As for hiding behind govt. protection? You mean like the FDA approving drugs? That protection? Yeah, lets get rid of that.
    I think he meant like patents. Oh, you mean you think the FDA issues patents? That's why you used the FDA for an example of patent protection? No wonder you're so confused.

     

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  52.  
    identicon
    RandomThoughts, Aug 20th, 2007 @ 6:12am

    I understand the FDA doesn't issue patents, but the FDA is the biggest part of govt. regulation and thats what I was talking about.

    Mike, maybe you can explain how a drug company can be a monopoly when no drug company has over 10% of global market share? What are your assumptions?

    I agree, the future for clinical trials, medicine and healthcare will be different. We still need something to bridge that gap (and its a pretty big gap) but getting rid of patents for drugs won't get us there and will hurt research. You talk about cheap clinical trials, but in fact the technology does not exist. People don't trust the FDA, think they will trust a computer model yet?

    Here is a twist. Increase drug patents to 25 years. Make it harder for generic manufacturers to attack valid patents. The industry would go for that. As a counterbalance, the govt. would regulate prices.

     

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  53.  
    identicon
    PlayingwithFire, Aug 20th, 2007 @ 8:22am

    I went to a recent screening of the new Bourne movie. Before the movie, the manager of the theater came into the packed room, stood in the front by the screen, and informed us that all cell phones must be turned off and that we were being monitored. If a cell screen illuminated and was detected, the owner would be asked to leave immediately. He specifically mentioned that he was being asked by the RIAA to ban all cell phone cameras from the premises.

    I see movies here all the time...NEVER heard such an announcement before.

     

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  54.  
    identicon
    RandomThoughts is a Shill, Aug 20th, 2007 @ 8:37am

    Patents give a company a 100% monopoly to use and sell whatever the patent covers for the duration of the patent.

    RandomThoughts is a Shill

     

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  55.  
    identicon
    RandomThoughts, Aug 20th, 2007 @ 8:43am

    Theater owners should go in and make an announcement that all cell phones should be turned off, not because of people recording the movie but because it is annoying as hell having someone talk on the phone while I am trying to watch a movie.

     

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  56.  
    icon
    Mike (profile), Aug 20th, 2007 @ 11:13am

    Re:

    Mike, maybe you can explain how a drug company can be a monopoly when no drug company has over 10% of global market share? What are your assumptions?

    On the specific drug. The patent gives them a monopoly.

    I agree, the future for clinical trials, medicine and healthcare will be different. We still need something to bridge that gap (and its a pretty big gap) but getting rid of patents for drugs won't get us there and will hurt research.

    You keep making this claim, but the history of patents in the pharma industry suggests exactly the opposite. I'm not sure why you continue to insist on making these false assumptions.

    ou talk about cheap clinical trials, but in fact the technology does not exist. People don't trust the FDA, think they will trust a computer model yet?

    Did I say it was a computer model? Again, I'd suggest you read Andy Kessler's book.

    Here is a twist. Increase drug patents to 25 years. Make it harder for generic manufacturers to attack valid patents. The industry would go for that. As a counterbalance, the govt. would regulate prices.

    Say wha....? You want to give MORE monopoly protection to companies? That means LESS competition and LESS incentive to innovate. And you want MORE regulation on top of that?

    My goodness. Have you picked up an economics text lately? It might help you out a little. Because, right now you seem to have a severe misunderstanding of even the most basic economics, let alone anything more advanced.

     

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  57.  
    identicon
    RandomThoughts, Aug 20th, 2007 @ 12:07pm

    Mike, just because you keep posting something doesn't make it true. You have a severe misunderstanding, it is a fact that investment chases return. You and Hillary seem to have a lot in common.

     

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  58.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Aug 20th, 2007 @ 12:53pm

    Re:

    At best, a theater owners should go in and announce that people should not annoy others with their cell phones (and be asked to leave if they do)...

    As long as I keep my cell phone on vibrate and go outside to have the actual phone conversation (or briefly whisper "can't talk now, I'm at the movies" or just not answer) in short, as long as I don't bother other people with my cell, nobody can force me to turn my cell phone off...

     

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  59.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Aug 20th, 2007 @ 8:49pm

    Re:

    You have a severe misunderstanding, it is a fact that investment chases return
    This coming from someone who thought the FDA issues drug patents. Talk about misunderstanding. BTW, I've never seen Mike say that investment doesn't follow returns. I don't know where you get those goofy ideas of yours.

    You and Hillary seem to have a lot in common.
    All you seem to want is more and bigger government with more protectionism and less free market. Seems that's what YOU have in common with Hillary.

     

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  60.  
    icon
    Mike (profile), Aug 21st, 2007 @ 12:15am

    Re:

    Mike, just because you keep posting something doesn't make it true. You have a severe misunderstanding, it is a fact that investment chases return. You and Hillary seem to have a lot in common.

    When have I EVER suggested that investment doesn't chase returns? I've never said anything of the sort.

    However, you seem to have a problem understanding the broken window fallacy that creating any kind of return is good, even if it's net negative to society. The point is that you can create tremendous returns in healthcare by moving away from protectionist policies. Then, yes, investment will follow return.

    As for repeating something over and over again without making it true, you seem to be guilty of that. I've got the research and data to support my position. You, on the other hand, don't seem to have anything, other than a faulty understanding of economics.

    Based on your reasoning, we'd all be better off if the gov't guaranteed profit to certain companies. After all, investment chases return, right? So shouldn't the gov't just pick the winners so we all know where to invest? But that's ridiculous and I would think that someone like you who's so sure of his position would understand this.

     

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  61.  
    identicon
    Chris, Sep 3rd, 2007 @ 10:39am

    Re:

    Why would the RIAA ask movie theaters to ban cell phones? Wouldn't that be the MPAA (or whatever it is)? The RIAA is for record companies.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  62.  
    identicon
    dsfsadf, Feb 3rd, 2008 @ 5:43am

    sdfsdafasfsadf

    sdfsdafasdfasdfsdafadsfsadfssfsdfssfdsdfafdssfdasfda

     

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  63.  
    identicon
    Lily Schey, Jul 23rd, 2008 @ 4:11pm

    Re: More details...

    HA HA HA HA HA HA HA....

    I can't even get a quality DVD made from my $600 camcorder. And this guy got quality DVD from a camera phone? I don't think so. LOL. Anyone who believes this story has got to be smokin' something HOT.

     

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  64.  
    identicon
    steven, Mar 4th, 2009 @ 5:52am

    the simpsons is the best show on tv............

    i have really seen every single simpsons episode starting with my brother watching the show, in 1987. That i know that it would be easy to say that iam a geek, but no one here knows me.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]


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