Dunn Charged With Felony For Spying On Board Members

from the silicon-valley-scandals dept

While California Attorney General Bill Lockyer has been saying for a few weeks that he had enough evidence to indict HP's former chairwoman Patricia Dunn, some had questioned if he ever would do so. That's settled today as Lockyer filed felony charges against Dunn and four others, including HP's senior lawyer Kevin Hunsaker and some of the investigators who took part in the spying process, pretending to be various reporters and board members in order to obtain their phone records. While Dunn has continually failed to accept responsibility or even recognize that what she did was wrong, it may make some wonder if her role really deserves criminal charges. She did want to plug the leak, and it does seem like she either did not care about the means used or made it clear she didn't want to know. However, criminal charges still seem a bit extreme. She may be guilty of allowing this to happen under her watch, in part due to her own obsession with plugging the leaks, but it's not clear that deserves felony charges directly. It was definitely an ethical lapse, and she probably deserved to lose her job, but the possibility of six years in jail seems like somewhat excessive punishment.


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  1.  
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    Franssu, Oct 4th, 2006 @ 7:59pm

    If it's excessive or not will be determined during her trial, by a jury. She's charged, she's not in jail. And I think she deserved it, because as a CEO she can be held responsible of the wrongdoings of the company.

    It's about time the "I didn't know they were doing thos" excuse goes down the drain. A CEO does have to see that other execs are doint right. Of course I don't say she deserves to go in prison, that is for the jury to decide after a fair trial.

     

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  2.  
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    MV, Oct 4th, 2006 @ 8:21pm

    That's what the big bucks are paid for...

    Dunn authorized "plugging in" the leak and whether or not she directly authorized the illegal methods used is quite irrelevant. As a CEO she was responsible for all of HP and wrongdoings of HP are hers as well.
    It fascinates me that heads of companies are paid such ridiculous money, yet somehow do not accept the risks associated with the job of being a leader. At ~300x the compensation of a regular worker, damn right I expect her to take responsibility for her and company's actions.

     

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  3.  
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    Mr Shag, Oct 4th, 2006 @ 8:44pm

    Finally

    Corporations are being held accountable, for their actions towards employees etc.

    6 years seems a lot. But the odds of that happening are very slim.

    I think this might be the first time that they are going after this sort of thing.

     

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  4.  
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    CG, Oct 4th, 2006 @ 9:13pm

    Re:

    Was she not Chairman of the Board not CEO. Not condoning what she did just want to have the correct facts. Hurn is the CEO.

     

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  5.  
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    nonuser, Oct 4th, 2006 @ 9:23pm

    Steve Jobs is a quick study

    I noticed that only a few hours later he apologized for Apple's stock option problems, and his tone was much closer to Mark Hurd's than to Patricia Dunn's. That kind of thing seems to make a difference.

     

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  6.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Oct 4th, 2006 @ 9:27pm

    Re: Re:

    Hurd, not Hurn.

     

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  7.  
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    Rick, Oct 4th, 2006 @ 10:07pm

    whatever

    This entire topic is quite interesting, and I don't agree with the tactics employed by HP necessarily, but criminal charges? I'm sorry, someone was jipping a multi-billion dollar corporation and that's a serious problem. It needed to be plugged.

     

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  8.  
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    Donald Duck, Oct 5th, 2006 @ 1:03am

    Deep Throat on the HP board

    Re: by CG on Oct 4th, 2006 @ 9:13pm

    Was she not Chairman of the Board not CEO. Not condoning what she did just want to have the correct facts. Hurn is the CEO.

    W-o-m-a-n :) just wanted to have the gender correct!

    First of all I would point out that pretexting is probably as common as chewing gum these day's with the advent of the internet. Name one gumshoe who hasn't pretext a dirty cheatin hubby for his jealous wife so she can prove he did and get the little red porsche she always dreamed about.

    I think the problem here is that Dunn has been accused of spying on GUESS WHO.....journalists probably some of the most famous pretexters of all time!

    Now we all know you can't spy on journalists. My god that would be as illegal as working for the chinese. How dear a business spy on journalist who keeps on leaking private business data to the freaking public and other computer companies.

    Now these HP guy's...how can i say it these _uckers was good!

    They sent a email embedded spyware to a Cnet reporter in hopes she would forward it to her HP board member contact. A rope a dope email :)

    The HP operation was to find out who on the company's board was leaking information to the media.

    The probe had involved surveillance, sifting through garbage and using false identities to obtain personal records or trick a reporter into divulging sources

    The memo said that Hurd also recalled one meeting, probably on July 22, 2005, in which "somebody mentioned obtaining phone record information off the Web. Hurd remembered thinking that there must be a Web site with such information." Well my god there is I remember that.

    http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/10/04/BUGN1LHMQU1.DTL

    I remember the news talking about this like the start of 2005 or 2006 it was near spring when the news story broke that criminals was using pretexting against the government. So there was a big push to knock this stuff off the internet.

    Companies like phonebust use to do it.

    http://www.phonebust.com/

    http://www.google.com/search?q=celltolls&start=0&ie=utf- 8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official

    There was all kinds of these types of companies selling that information.

    http://news.com.com/Politicians+call+for+better+phone+record+privacy/2100-1036_3-6031916.html

    I would imagine that the board sign some document that stated that they would not leak info to the press or any one else. That was the start of this web and it made others wanted to know who. That person must be fingered and brought to civil court for breaking the contract.

    I believe this is very close to what Apple has been dealing with inside it's own company and the internet leaker telling every one secrets about Apple and what Apple is going to come out with. I mean obviously if I posted Apple is coming out with a 500GB ipod next year and I got that information from a board member. Sony, Microsoft and others would come out with their own 500GB unit and that means BILLIONS of dollars in profits UP IN SMOKE.....

     

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  9.  
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    Cyryl, Oct 5th, 2006 @ 1:44am

    Re:

    ---ORIGINAL POSTING---
    "by Franssu on Oct 4th, 2006 @ 7:59pm

    If it's excessive or not will be determined during her trial, by a jury. She's charged, she's not in jail. And I think she deserved it, because as a CEO she can be held responsible of the wrongdoings of the company.

    It's about time the "I didn't know they were doing thos" excuse goes down the drain. A CEO does have to see that other execs are doint right. Of course I don't say she deserves to go in prison, that is for the jury to decide after a fair trial."
    ----------------------------------

    If you have NEVER faced any kind of charge in our so-called "Justice System" and you have never even so much as FACED JAIL TIME...

    ...then SHUT YOUR FUCKING MOUTH.

    Not in jail? YOU IGNORANT MOTHER FUCKER. "Felony" MEANS THEY FUCKING ARREST YOU AND PUT YOUR ASS IN JAIL where you get to wait for the judge to tell you what your BOND is and you can post BAIL to get out of jail until your arraignment. (Bail = 10% of your BOND.)

    After being arraigned, you get to WAIT on the case for sometimes MONTHS or YEARS at a time...and you WORRY and WORRY...EVERY FUCKING DAY about how they're going to FUCK you without even giving you so much as a BREATH to tell them YOUR side of what happened...

    ..UNLESS you go to trial.

    But if you go to trial, they get PISSED at you for it. Why? Because you didn't just make it EASY for them and PLEAD GUILTY.

    Doesn't matter if you are or aren't. THEY DON'T GIVE A FUCK.

    After you either plead guilty and "WAIVE YOUR RIGHT TO A TRIAL" or after you DO go to trial and you're found 'guilty', you get to wait for SENTENCING.

    And if you decided to go through the trial and you're STILL found guilty...they consider that as YOU having wasted THEIR time and money, so they DOUBLE-FUCK you for it.

    They don't give a FUCK if you're really guilty or not. THEY just want you to plead guilty and move out of their court room...and if you CHALLENGE THEM, they HATE you for it.

    They HATE you for TAKING ADVANTAGE OF THE VERY RIGHTS MY FELLOW SOLDIERS are currently (supposedly) DYING FOR.

    Right to a fair trial? WHATEVER.

    I'm SICK of you IGNORANT MOTHER FUCKERS running your mouths without knowing a GODDAMN THING about how the judicial system works.

    I got caught up in it over some shit that was handed to me. Stolen property. I had NO clue as it was equipment I commonly deal with. It was left at my house. Next thing I know, there were investigators and deputies at my home, etc.

    For computer parts. A couple of CPU's and a couple of hard drives. BIG FUCKING DEAL. Why would these things clue me in at all when I am ALWAYS installing hardware for people and 'friends'?

    But THEY didn't see it that way. It was a MISDEMEANOR and they STILL threw my ass in jail for it.

    For TWO MONTHS.

    But EVERY TIME I stood in front of the judge...next to my so-called 'public defender'...I didn't get to say ONE MOTHER FUCKING WORD to that son of a bitch in my defense.

    Not ONE FUCKING WORD. They NEVER gave me a single chance to say anything in my own defense. NOT ONE.

    Then they tagged me, CUFFED ME and put me in a place where I would LOSE two months of my life that I would NEVER get back.

    You don't know a GODDAMN THING about how that shit works...so unti you do...

    SHUT THE HELL UP and QUIT ACTING LIKE YOU KNOW SOMETHING because you don't know a GODDAMN THING about it.

     

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  10.  
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    tek'a, Oct 5th, 2006 @ 2:57am

    cyryl

    relax.. deep breaths.. good..

    she is a very wealthy woman.

    I think the odds of jailtime are best measured by some type of atomic supercomputer in her case. not because of any measure of guilt, but because of her money.

    somehow.. im sensing a lot of rage, cyryl.. yes, it is very bad you went to jail. no one wants to go to jail (thats why they lock the doors).

    have you talked to anyone about this anger? it could be good for you.

     

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  11.  
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    noneyet99, Oct 5th, 2006 @ 3:28am

    losing your job losing money

    These people get paid for years after they depart. Losing their job means nothing. they get paid enough in one year for most of us to live on for the rest of our lives (if invested, or earning even minimum interest).

    If the trial shows she is in felony territory, she'll be in the prison with tennis courts most likely. It's something anyway.

     

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  12.  
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    Chris, Oct 5th, 2006 @ 3:51am

    Cyryl Rant

    What a looser, you should have used that two months to work on your vocabulary. I suspect that with a temper and attitude to match, you will be back behind bars before long.

    Good Luck,

    Hex

     

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  13.  
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    Neurothustra, Oct 5th, 2006 @ 5:50am

    Legal System

    We have a good legal system, not perfect but good. And I actually do have some empirical evidence that felony charges do not require you to sit in jail. "I got caught up in it over some shit that was handed to me. Stolen property. I had NO clue as it was equipment I commonly deal with. It was left at my house" pardon my cynicism, but it sounds to me like somebody was fencing stolen goods and played the role of the obtuse victim. Sorry, but anyone that riled up tells me that something isn't right. The Chairman of HP is also playing the obtuse victim, from the sounds of it. Frankly, I think that protecting the privacy of individuals from overzealous corporate heads is paramount to protecting said Corporations profit margins. It's a strike back, a message that the S Class is not more important than the Working Class

     

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  14.  
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    OJ Simpson, Oct 5th, 2006 @ 6:34am

    Re: Re:

    GUILTY!

     

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  15.  
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    The Original Just Me, Oct 5th, 2006 @ 6:39am

    Re: Donald Duck

    You are forgetting that they also stole the home phone records of reporters and apparently radmon people, like the retired father of a reporter. In some cases they may have used the social security numbers of these people in order to complete the fraudulent action.

    How is that even remotely justifiable? These people weren't employees of HP, they didn't sign anything and waive their rights.

    What she did, or the company did on her watch, was fraud, and that can be a felony.

     

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  16.  
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    Dosquatch, Oct 5th, 2006 @ 6:53am

    What do you propose?

    OK, Mike, what do you suggest instead? She, or people in her charge, obtained phone records not their own. Those records belong to the people whose names are on the accounts. Or at the very least to the phone companies, but certainly not to the board members of HP.

    The methods used to get those records are, as you've said yourself, a form of identity theft. Shouldn't that be taken seriously? If it isn't a criminal offense, then what is it? Or should she just get a pass because she's an "important person"?

    Personally, I'm tired of the gentle wrist-slaps afforded some simply because of who they are. She engaged in fraud. Treat her as such. If the penalty where she is is 6 years in prison, so be it. Maybe the next chairman won't be so capricious with the law.

     

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  17.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Oct 5th, 2006 @ 7:33am

    first, as to the felony charges? i believe they are worthy. i mean, if someone was trying to steal something from your shed, and you killed them, i'm sure you'd be placed in jail. sure you have a right to protect your stuff, but if the "robber" never threatned your life, you had no right to kill him. you had every right to call the cops and let them deal with the situation.

    next, to cyryl
    wtf happened to you? you recieved property and were told nothing about it? and told to install this stuff on friends computers? didn't you get a clue when they kept handing you stuff not in boxes or anything? no proof of purchase? you had the ability to question the property to protect yourass. instead you tried the "i had no clue, it's not my fault" defense. just like every ofther f'n shmuck in here. so you paid the price for being an idiot. as for your defense, you have the right to HAVE a lawyer/public defender. you could have paid for a "real" lawyer. instead, you tried to work off the system. you also HAD THE RIGHT to deline the public defender, where you could represent yourself. your lawyer/pd is someone who you give authority to speak on your behalf. it is in your best interest to let a professional handle those things. however, you still are able to shed those ties. IT'S YOUR OWN DAMN FAULT FOR BEING A COMPLETE FUCKTARD TO ALLOW WHAT HAPPENED TO YOU. IT'S YOU AND YOU ALONE. DON'T COMPLAIN THE SYSTEM FUCKED YOU. YOU LET THE SYSTEM FUCK YOU.

     

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  18.  
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    Lay Person, Oct 5th, 2006 @ 8:37am

    Yeah Patty is evil...

    Yeah Patty is evil and George Bush is a saint.

    Let's have Patty in charge of the war in Iraq and put George, Cheney, and Rumsfeld in jail for 6 years.

    I guarantee you Iraq will be solved in less than 6 months. Once that's done we give her amnesty and then tack on another 10 years to the "Bozo Circus" sentences.

     

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  19.  
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    MV, Oct 5th, 2006 @ 8:56am

    Re: whatever

    Yes, criminal charges for criminal behavior, what's so hard to understand, Rick? You might have gotten caught up in this fancy word "pretexting" which doesn't sound all that bad, but it's more than just a "disagreable" act, it's criminal.

    As far as "needed to be plugged" that's an interesting statement. HP leaked information for DECADES and it was just accepted as part of doing business, now we have Dunn and Hurd (especially Hurd, look at the timing) come on board, and everything needs to be plugged? I don't buy that. This was obviously a power play, had nothing to do with the actual leak. Did you actually read what the oh-so-important information leaked actually was?

    And anyone find it a bit strange that after all this, the top level women are decimated at HP?

     

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  20.  
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    Jim Holloway, Oct 5th, 2006 @ 9:06am

    Re: Re:

    Can you get your point across without the use of four lettered words, it takes away from what you are trying to point out..

     

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  21.  
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    Jack Sombra, Oct 5th, 2006 @ 9:53am

    Cyryl

    Reading your post it's not susprising your PD did not want you saying a word, if you had you most likely would have got years instead of months

     

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  22.  
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    Lay Person, Oct 5th, 2006 @ 10:04am

    Let's not knock Cyryl...

    Cyryl speaks the truth...so he's angry...so what...I'm pissed off too!

    You don't need to be a bad person (or a loser) to get caught up in the system! Can we be so obtuse as to deny Cyryl his blog?!?!

    He knows exactly what he's talking about. I'm not a criminal but I had to deal with a shady contractor, he trespassed on my property and proceeded to steal my tools. I approached him with a baseball bat and proceeded to crack his skull. I never managed to get a shot at him...he ran off...called the cops...and the cops arrested me.

    There, so all you smart assholes can go straight to hell! Yeah it makes me angry. I should have shot him in the head, dragged him into my house, and said he was breaking and entering. Problem solved.

    Cops are stupid, they aren't attorneys and they interpret the law as attorneys.

    Anyway, I sued the P department, I won. The system is flawed and yes contrary to popular American views, YOU ARE GUILTY UNTIL PROVEN INNOCENT!

    I used to repeat/believe American (supposed) rights but until this happens to you, you really have no fucking idea.
    So shut the hell up.

    I am a tax paying citizen, I had more rights than that dirty contractor who was a Mexican illegal using a deceased mans contractor's license!

    Anyway, our whole government needs to be renovated from the top down. Too many idiots have infiltrated the system and it's showing.

    By the way, anyone who supports our system, as it is, is the only moronic loser!

     

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  23.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Oct 5th, 2006 @ 10:38am

    to lay

    if you hired an illegal, you're an idiot. your actions could be considred vigilante. i wish they whould have locked you up for some time. and i feel sorry for the PD for losing a civil case to you. You tried to take the law into your own hands. for that, i have no sympathy.

    i support our system. and i support the idea that your mom should have swallowed, or your dad should have used the toilet or paper towel.

    now, i have every right to say this. i've been on both sides of the law. and each time, a fair decision was made (always in my favor) why? because the system works. you may appear guilty and taken into custody, (which they have every right to) and then released for lack of evidence/procedure and the like. did i dream of suing? no. because i am SMART enough to see the other side's point of view.

    so anyone who uses the term moronic loser.....

     

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  24.  
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    Lay Person, Oct 5th, 2006 @ 11:00am

    Re:

    #23...

    Yeah whatever, Anonymous Cop!

    Moronic loser only addresses you at this point.

    I happened to hire a licensed contractor. That means he's not an illegal but an upstanding member of the California Trade community.

    He turned out to be a liar, cheat, thief, and an illegal Mexican.

    I suppose you'd let the punk steal your livlihood, then let the government deal with it. Meanwhile you can't do your work. Perhaps you'd collect unemployment until things are figured out?

    You have no brain and very anctious fingers to type and think for you. Think before you type.

    You have no right to say anything because you cannot understand anything; swine cannot comprehend literary pearls.

    Oh and since you brought my family into this, I curse you.

    Your health will be gravely affected in the near future :)

     

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  25.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Oct 5th, 2006 @ 11:12am

    if #23 has no brain, he wouldn't be able to think, or type. hell he wouldn't be alive. dumbass. so obviously you are a "moronic loser" because you don't understand that w/o a brain, people aren't people. they aren't alive.

    you fail.

    if you hired a legal licensed contractor, why was he illegal? he lied/cheated? did you do your research? If his "name" was John Smith, and everyone called him Enrique....shouldn't that clue you in? it's your fault for not looking into the matter more. sure anyone can fake up a license and such. but you have to check your resources. i bet you believe everything on the internet is a proven fact as well? if so, i have some ocean front property to sell you, and a car that gets 300 miles to get gallon.

    oh, and he has a right to say what he wants. first amendment baby. just like you have the right to post your reply, and i have my right to post a reply to you.

    and since you want to get into curses, i curse you. you will be affected in the near future. (what is it? i'm not telling!)

     

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  26.  
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    dorpus, Oct 5th, 2006 @ 11:16am

    I uncurse #23

     

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  27.  
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    Lay Person, Oct 5th, 2006 @ 11:28am

    Ahhhhh!

    Hi Dorpus!

    I knew it was you! Hiding as usual cuz all you do is fish...switch names...fish more...then get a big laugh in the end!

    It's him again people!

    Time to hit the old IGNORE button.

    IGNORE...

     

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  28.  
    identicon
    dorpus, Oct 5th, 2006 @ 11:30am

    ok you got me

    ok i wrote #23 and #25 also.

    you got me.

    its just that no one will blog with me anymore.

    i feel like such an idiot!

     

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  29.  
    identicon
    Lay Person, Oct 5th, 2006 @ 11:30am

    Re: ok you got me

    You're a moronic loser....


    IGNORE...

     

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  30.  
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    MV, Oct 5th, 2006 @ 11:56am

    Re: Re: ok you got me

    While you are off ignoring, can you please take the irrelevant rants with you? Thanks a bunch.

     

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  31.  
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    Lay Person, Oct 5th, 2006 @ 12:04pm

    Re: Re: Re: ok you got me

    IGNORE...

     

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  32.  
    identicon
    Cyryl, Oct 5th, 2006 @ 12:09pm

    Re:

    ---ORIGINAL POST BY YET ANOTHER COWARD---
    by Anonymous Coward on Oct 5th, 2006 @ 7:33am

    next, to cyryl
    wtf happened to you? you recieved property and were told nothing about it? and told to install this stuff on friends computers? didn't you get a clue when they kept handing you stuff not in boxes or anything? no proof of purchase? you had the ability to question the property to protect yourass. instead you tried the "i had no clue, it's not my fault" defense. just like every ofther f'n shmuck in here. so you paid the price for being an idiot. as for your defense, you have the right to HAVE a lawyer/public defender. you could have paid for a "real" lawyer. instead, you tried to work off the system. you also HAD THE RIGHT to deline the public defender, where you could represent yourself. your lawyer/pd is someone who you give authority to speak on your behalf. it is in your best interest to let a professional handle those things. however, you still are able to shed those ties. IT'S YOUR OWN DAMN FAULT FOR BEING A COMPLETE FUCKTARD TO ALLOW WHAT HAPPENED TO YOU. IT'S YOU AND YOU ALONE. DON'T COMPLAIN THE SYSTEM FUCKED YOU. YOU LET THE SYSTEM FUCK YOU.
    --------------------------------------------

    1.) I didn't RECEIVE the property. It was LEFT at my house.

    LEARN TO READ.

    2.) I wasn't 'told' to do a FUCKING THING with it. It was LEFT there. Nothing more. *I* didn't do a GODDAMN THING with it. IT SAT THERE.

    LEARN TO FUCKING READ...ANONYMOUS COWARD.

    3.) 'They' didn't 'keep handing me' ANYTHING. I am OCCASIONALLY asked to do maintenance for people. Sometimes it means upgrades. It's NOT MY BUSINESS to ask EVERY MOTHER FUCKER where they got their parts. Don't EVEN try to tell me that YOU would...FUCKING COWARD.

    "Ok. So this is what you want installed. Do you have your RECEIPT for this part? I won't install it for you until you show it to me."

    Yeah fucking right. IDIOT. Who DOES that...FUCKING COWARD? YOU!? Not likely.

    LEARN TO GODDAMN READ...AFTER you get your head out of your ASS and start thinking a little more practically...FUCKING COWARD.

    4.) There was no matter of QUESTION. AGAIN, I didn't make a huge practice of asking my friends where this or that part came from. We were ALWAYS getting together for LAN parties and system building sessions, etc. The situation was FAR more complex than simple questions like that, FUCKING COWARD.

    5.) Defense? AGAIN...

    LEARN TO FUCKING READ, FUCKING COWARD.

    I DIDN'T GET A DEFENSE. I DIDN'T GET A SINGLE FUCKING CHANCE TO PRESENT ANY KIND OF 'DEFENSE'.

    Before you go runnin' that BIG MOUTH of yours...COWARD, you'd BETTER pay attention to detail. You completely missed that part. DIDN'T YA? (I don't see HOW you could possibly have missed it.)

    6.) Paid for a REAL lawyer? IS THERE SUCH A THING? You STINK of ignorance, FUCKING COWARD. It may be all well and good for someone like YOU who has ALL THAT FUCKING MONEY (?) but us REAL people DON'T. You are ASSIGNED an attorney ("Public Pretender", whatever...) by the court if you CAN NOT AFFORD ONE. It's in the Miranda Rights. (Which never even got READ to me, BTW...) So I didn't "TRY" to work off of the system. THEY worked off of ME, mother fucker.

    7.) In the state of Nebraska (in ALL of it's corrupt glory...) you CAN NOT be in court without legal representation if you are:

    1.) Facing jail time.
    2.) Charged with a felony (which I originally was).
    3.) Going to trial.

    In short, you CAN NOT refuse the public 'defender' if you CAN NOT afford a...

    ----BEGIN LAUGHING AT YOUR IGNORANT ASS---
    "REAL LAWYER."
    ---END LAUGHING AT YOUR STUPID ASS---

    You CAN NOT represent yourself.

    You WILL be appointed an attorney by the state. (You know... One of those "professionals" you speak so HIGHLY of...)

    PLAIN AND SIMPLE.

    Don't think I didn't look into those options BEFOREHAND. I didn't WANT that stupid bitch of a 'defender' for the simple fact that she was quite the little CUNT anyway. But they wouldn't have it.

    And just for the record, I'm going to reiterate YET AGAIN... I didn't 'give' ANY kind of authority to ANYONE for ANYTHING. They TAKE it. THAT is how this shit works. THEY DON'T GIVE YOU A FUCKING CHOICE.

    Do your research BEFORE runnin' your mouth, FUCKING COWARD.

    8.) I 'let' the system fuck me? MAN you're just not LISTENING. I didn't get a SINGLE WORD in that court room. Not ONE. EVER.

    Nice try, dickhead. But your approach was built completely on ignorance. You have OBVIOUSLY NEVER dealt with 'the system' on any real level. You're one of those SHEEP that goes to the DMV to get your license whenever it's needed...and that's as MUCH as you know about. Beyond that, you don't have a FUCKING CLUE about how shit REALLY works in 'the system'.

    It's EASY for an IGNORANT FUCK like YOU to say basic those very basic things that you finished your post with... Those very basic things you chose to yell at me are completely devoid of any reason or substance.

    Fuck off, dude. You're just another ignorant bitch.

     

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  33.  
    identicon
    Cyryl, Oct 5th, 2006 @ 12:21pm

    Re: Cyryl Rant

    ---ORIGINAL POST---
    Cyryl Rant by Chris on Oct 5th, 2006 @ 3:51am

    What a looser, you should have used that two months to work on your vocabulary. I suspect that with a temper and attitude to match, you will be back behind bars before long.

    Good Luck,

    Hex
    ----------------------------

    Umm... I am in AWE at how utterly I fail to see how my vocabulary has ANYTHING to do with this.

    As well as being without understanding how my vocabulary needs any work.

    WHY even post something against me when you're going to be just another IDIOT who really has NOTHING to say? All you end up doing is throwing the whole spelling/grammar/vocabulary offense at people. You have NO REAL CONTENT.

    What's WORSE is that you just automatically assume that because I was tossed in jail ONCE that I'm going to be there AGAIN. How ignorant can you possibly be? Shit happens ONCE, so in your JUDGEMENTAL VIEW, I'm automatically a habitual criminal?

    I'm an ex-army soldier of 6 years; having done telecommunications in the military. I've held good jobs in the tech industry. Out of the 3 jobs I've had since all of that BS happened, I've been in managerial positions in TWO of them. I was even the NUMBER ONE salesman at the REGIONAL level when I worked at Staples as the floor lead in the electronics department for two years. I'm WIDELY known in the community as a result as someone who is TRUSTED and well-known for quality work and extensive knowledge of my profession.

    But I'm a CRIMINAL to you. Just because 'the system' called me so ONCE.

    FUCK you, dude. Take your ignorance away from here. It is NOT welcome. (Though many more shall follow, I am sure.)

    Just....JUST.... GAH!

    The MOUTH.

    CLOSE IT.

    For the LOVE OF ALL THAT IS GOOD....CLOSE IT! PERMANENTLY! WITH THE QUICKNESS!

     

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  34.  
    identicon
    Lay Person, Oct 5th, 2006 @ 12:23pm

    Forget the whole thing...

    Cyryl, just forget the whole thing.

    This person is not here to seriously blog but rather fish for reactions.

    They cannot argue effectively so they resort to half-baked logic/arguments that essentially hold no substance other than present hooks for further emotional prompting.

    We aren't arguing, we are simply engaging in some adolescent dribble.

    It simply isn't worth our time. Yeah, we're going to hell while they make the sandwiches.

     

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  35.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Oct 5th, 2006 @ 12:28pm

    cyryl. lol you are funny. the more you rant, the more you look like lay person's moronic loser.

    1) you didn't see stuff piling up?
    2)ok, so you automatically install parts from your house in other people's computers?
    3)by not being a registered computer business and not using "purchased" parts, it's your fault. would i ask? probably not, but by doing so, i'm taking the risk (as you did) about being involved in theft
    4)your own ignorance. lol
    5)you had a defense. you had a PD. you should have had sessions to go over what happened. if you didn't request that, your fault. your ignorance again
    6)i'm a real person, and i'm not rich. but i'm sure i can find a lawyer that would take my case.
    7)by living in that state, you must abide by its rules. cleary you can't do that. or maybe you had a poor attitue to a female with power? piss her off? not a good way to get out of jail, pissing off your lawyer that is. ignorance. yet again. notice a theme?
    8)no, you had your word. you had your PD. and the PD works for you. if you let the PD do nothing, you can request a new counselor for your defense. otherwise, you are stuck

    now, if i'm an IGNORANT FUCK, DUDE. you fall into the same category. your overuse of the term fuck, and other offensive terms plus the over useage of capitilaziton shows you have more anger than knowledge of the event. you got screwed and want to blame someone else for your mistakes? take some responsibility for your actions.

    now go ahead and blast me. make yourself look more of a fool. what is it? "give 'em enough rope, and they'll hang themselves?"

     

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  36.  
    identicon
    dorpus, Oct 5th, 2006 @ 12:29pm

    Lay and Cyryl

    hey ley and cyryl...are you too prison love buddies? you sound like it:)

    and if not, you'd make a great couple.

     

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  37.  
    identicon
    Cyryl, Oct 5th, 2006 @ 12:35pm

    Re: Legal System

    ---ORIGINAL POST---
    Legal System by Neurothustra on Oct 5th, 2006 @ 5:50am

    We have a good legal system, not perfect but good. And I actually do have some empirical evidence that felony charges do not require you to sit in jail. "I got caught up in it over some shit that was handed to me. Stolen property. I had NO clue as it was equipment I commonly deal with. It was left at my house" pardon my cynicism, but it sounds to me like somebody was fencing stolen goods and played the role of the obtuse victim. Sorry, but anyone that riled up tells me that something isn't right. The Chairman of HP is also playing the obtuse victim, from the sounds of it. Frankly, I think that protecting the privacy of individuals from overzealous corporate heads is paramount to protecting said Corporations profit margins. It's a strike back, a message that the S Class is not more important than the Working Class
    -----------------------------

    Alright... Well at least you're not coming across as a complete MORON. At least you're approaching with some form of intelligence... Thank you for THAT much at least.

    Yeah. I still get a little 'riled up' when I think about it. I'm STILL a little bit pissed off. It's just that unlike OTHER people, I have NO problem conveying just exactly HOW pissed off I am. I do NOT allow that socially-anxious fear to overwhelm me and prevent me from telling you just EXACTLY what the fuck is up.

    A lot of it stems from the fact that when it all went down, I ACTUALLY TRUSTED the system to sort everything out. I kept hearing, "Possession is 9/10 of the law, etc." I BELIEVED in our ability as a country to take the time to figure out what REALLY happened...or to AT LEAST do our best. (We'll NEVER be perfect. That's for sure.)

    But that is exactly when I learned the REALITY of things.

    Suddenly I was thrown into this world of CHAOS where you are CERTAINLY NOT "innocent until proven guilty". That is a LIE.

    I told them what little I knew. I told them WHAT it was, WHO brought it and whatever else they asked me. The next thing I know, I'm reading a copy of the report that the county investigators drew up...and they TWISTED EVERY FUCKING WORD I SAID. They MANIPULATE you. They THREATEN you. They took EVERYTHING and put it ALL completely out of context, etc.

    They LIED.

    What I came to find is that it's THEIR JOB to MAKE you look like a criminal. (HOW DO THEY SLEEP AT NIGHT, full well knowing that they represent ONE HUGE LIE!?!?)

    I was IGNORANT to ever believe that they would figure out that I had no part in things. I wasn't fencing anything. Why do you people continually try to make this sound more complex than it EVER was?

    -Friend was at my home.
    -Friend non-chalantly asked if he could leave a few things things at my home and that said he'd get'em later. (Something that is COMMONPLACE between friends if I am not mistaken.)
    -Someone blew the whistle on someone else, it led back to Friend, which led back to ME. ONLY because I HAD it in my home.

    That's as complex as it really is. NO MORE, NO LESS.

    Why do you all keep trying to paint me as the criminal that THEY say I must've been in this situation? Just because I'm PISSED OFF doesn't mean I EVER WAS.

    In all seriousness... PLEASE don't be ignorant and assume such things.

    And as for your 'empirical' evidence... You can not furnish any real proof as your evidence is strictly based on your own observations. We can not assume that your observations are correct or incorrect.

    The same way as christians assume that the bible is law...and yet it was written by the hand of MAN.

    A VERY erroneous creature indeed.

    Think what you want, but DON'T be ignorant in voicing it. Assumptive statements are incorrect 90% of the time.

     

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  38.  
    identicon
    Cyryl, Oct 5th, 2006 @ 12:39pm

    Re: Re: Re:

    ---ORIGINAL POST---
    Re: Re: by Jim Holloway on Oct 5th, 2006 @ 9:06am

    Can you get your point across without the use of four lettered words, it takes away from what you are trying to point out..
    -----------------------------

    Step off of your soap box for a minute, son.

    Why should EMOTION detract from what I'm saying? I could simply tell you, "I'm pissed off." instead. But does that convey the actual emotion? Absolutely not.

    All that I've said IS dictated in english. No word loses or gains any meaning simply because there are expressive terminologies mixed in with them.

    If you are having THAT much trouble readint it...you could copy and paste the post into a text editor and edit out all of the expletives using the "Replace" function. (Wordpad and Microsoft Word have this feature.)

     

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  39.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Oct 5th, 2006 @ 12:40pm

    want some blog? here we go.

    HP conducted activities to stop a confidential data leek. these activies are illegal and considered felony offenses. while their reasoning was good, trying to stop the flow of confidentila information, their practie was not. what is the saying? two wrong don't make a right? that seems to make sense. i believe that these charges are valid. and if there was no wrong-doing, i'm confident the courts will find a not guilty verdict. however, i'm sure a plea will be coped and they will take 2 years in a nice min securty white collar prison. is this justice? maybe. but we sure as hell must send messages that if you do illegal activities, you will be punished.

     

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  40.  
    identicon
    dorpus, Oct 5th, 2006 @ 12:49pm

    maybe

    if you elaborated more cyryl, we would have a better understanding. when you said people left stuff at your house, and asked you to install it, it came across as a willingfully accecptance of the situation and all associated risk factors. while in turn, you should have stated it as you did on one of your later posts.

     

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  41.  
    identicon
    Cyryl, Oct 5th, 2006 @ 12:49pm

    Re: Forget the whole thing...

    ---ORIGINAL POST---
    Forget the whole thing... by Lay Person on Oct 5th, 2006 @ 12:23pm

    Cyryl, just forget the whole thing.

    This person is not here to seriously blog but rather fish for reactions.

    They cannot argue effectively so they resort to half-baked logic/arguments that essentially hold no substance other than present hooks for further emotional prompting.

    We aren't arguing, we are simply engaging in some adolescent dribble.

    It simply isn't worth our time. Yeah, we're going to hell while they make the sandwiches.
    ------------------------------

    Heh... You're right, of course. I don't know... I have this thing about letting ignorant people spread their filth, I suppose. It turns me into a vindictive crusader.

    I seek REAL justice. With VENGEANCE.

    But all they'll do is look at me, not have any understanding of things, and label me as a 'freak' or 'criminal' (apparently...)

    I realize it's pointless. I don't know if that makes me stupid for continuing...or just hopeful that one day they'll GET IT.

    *dons his fire-retardant suit*

    I'll have the roast beef on wheatberry with extra mayo and extra meat. With lettuce...please.

    *laughs*

     

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  42.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Oct 5th, 2006 @ 12:57pm

    Re: Re: Forget the whole thing...

    It's me Lay Person...

    It seems Techdirt doesn't like my postings so they decided to cut me off.

    I still have tricks up my sleeve though.

    Anyway, yeah. I need to find a more serious blog. Techdirt is constantly repeated filler. Their writers suck big schlong and I guess I'll leave the moronic losers to devour themselves.

    TECHDIRT SUCKS!

     

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  43.  
    identicon
    Frank the tank, Oct 5th, 2006 @ 1:15pm

    It's people liek these flamers, those AC's and Laypersons and cyryls that make everyone look bad. they are so full of themselves they don't take the time to understand anyone else.

    i guess that's why the world hates the US, and why the US is sucking majorlly now.

     

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  44.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Oct 5th, 2006 @ 1:22pm

    Re:

    ---ORIGINAL POST---
    by Anonymous Coward on Oct 5th, 2006 @ 12:28pm

    cyryl. lol you are funny. the more you rant, the more you look like lay person's moronic loser.

    1) you didn't see stuff piling up?
    2)ok, so you automatically install parts from your house in other people's computers?
    3)by not being a registered computer business and not using "purchased" parts, it's your fault. would i ask? probably not, but by doing so, i'm taking the risk (as you did) about being involved in theft
    4)your own ignorance. lol
    5)you had a defense. you had a PD. you should have had sessions to go over what happened. if you didn't request that, your fault. your ignorance again
    6)i'm a real person, and i'm not rich. but i'm sure i can find a lawyer that would take my case.
    7)by living in that state, you must abide by its rules. cleary you can't do that. or maybe you had a poor attitue to a female with power? piss her off? not a good way to get out of jail, pissing off your lawyer that is. ignorance. yet again. notice a theme?
    8)no, you had your word. you had your PD. and the PD works for you. if you let the PD do nothing, you can request a new counselor for your defense. otherwise, you are stuck

    now, if i'm an IGNORANT FUCK, DUDE. you fall into the same category. your overuse of the term fuck, and other offensive terms plus the over useage of capitilaziton shows you have more anger than knowledge of the event. you got screwed and want to blame someone else for your mistakes? take some responsibility for your actions.

    now go ahead and blast me. make yourself look more of a fool. what is it? "give 'em enough rope, and they'll hang themselves?"
    -----------------------------

    *BLINKS*

    MAN... Where do you people GET these ideas?!? Don't you people get TIRED of pulling these assumptions out of your asses?

    But I DO get to laugh at you...for that last paragraph. I LOVE it when people say, "Now go ahead and rip me apart." OK. I'm GOING to.

    You say that because even as you typed what you did in your post...you are NOT sure about what you're saying and how much truth there is to it...but you JUST CAN'T KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT. You STILL have to say SOMETHING back. You KNOW that you're probably going to look like an IDIOT, so you make that little DISCLAIMER hoping that I WON'T make you look like the idiot that you ARE by ripping you to pieces. Reverse psychology at it's EASIEST.

    It's FUCKING HILARIOUS.

    So YEAH. Here I go...since you REQUESTED it. LOL

    1.) Stuff wasn't "piling up". It was 2 CPU's and two hard drives. NOT UNCOMMON for those among us at the time to have. (Yeah. REAL big clue THERE. *rolls eyes*)

    2.) "Automatically install" parts? Umm... Not usually? My office is essentially a WORKSHOP. I have parts laying ALL OVER the place. It's not like I took inventory every day or anything. I really didn't even NOTICE them. I was working on something and he just said, "Hey dude. Can I leave my things here? I'm headin' over the such-and-such's place." I didn't even look up. I just said, "Sure. Whatever. Later." TYPICAL conversation in our every day lives.

    But you all seem to expect me to go on a some kind of fuckin' INQUISITION in that situation or something! "WHERE did those parts come from!? Are they YOURS? What are they? WHEN were they made? WHERE were they made!? SIGN THEM IN ON THAT CLIPBOARD ON THE WALL, MOTHER FUCKER!! GAHHHHH!! *FOAMS AT THE MOUTH*"

    Dude... NOT going to happen in every-day life. Just NOT going to happen like that.

    I never actually 'installed' ANY of those parts in ANYTHING. (Other people's computers? WTF?) Before the police showed up so that I could WILLINGLY GIVE THEM TO THEM, I didn't so much as TOUCH them. They SAT there on the edge of my workbench.

    BTW. If any of you are EVER in a similar situation...NEVER give the items in question back to them. DESTROY them and RID yourself of them. The ONLY reason they were able to convict me was BECAUSE I gave them those parts. I was GIVING them the evidence that they NEEDED. Yeah.. They made it sound like it would help my case, blah, blah, blah... LIARS. They used it AGAINST me.

    3.) Being a...registered computer business? Umm... I WASN'T a business at the time. I NEVER had a need to BECOME one. No reason. It was (and still is) a HOBBY. One that I *READ* OCCASIONALLY make money on. NOTHING MORE. WTF do I need to be a BUSINESS for?

    HOW MANY PEOPLE start a business JUST so that they can justify having a few video cards and RAM sticks layin' around?

    I build systems as a hobby. We get together and have LAN parties. We discuss and build systems as a group sometimes. HOBBY.

    --------------
    H-O-B-B-Y.
    --------------
    Main Entry: hobby
    Function: noun
    Inflected Form(s): plural hobbies
    : a pursuit outside one's regular occupation engaged in especially for relaxation.
    --------------------------------

    Ya see that? FOR RELAXATION. I wasn't tryin' to make it my freakin' profession! For CRYIN' OUT LOUD!

    4.) Umm.... My own ignorance? Uhhh... Ok? (WTF were you trying to say there?)

    5.) I had a defense? Ummm... Did I or did I NOT say (multiple times...) that I didn't even get a chance to present one? I KNOW I did. As for that PUBLIC PRETENDER... You don't think that I called that bitch CONSTANTLY? You don't think that I found myself in enough jeapordy that I wouldn't continually try to get a hold of that cunt? If that's what you think...then you think WRONG. Of course I tried to get in touch with her lazy ass and FIGURE OUT what she was planning or try to tell her what REALLY happened.

    Why? Because I KNEW that the ONLY thing she was going on was that twisted LIE of a report that the investigators gave to her. She TOLD me that she had it...and then turned around and told me that it was "all she needed". Not even when I INSISTED on speaking with her ANYWAY, would she make any time.

    So I "had a defense" there? WHATEVER dude.

    6.) REAL people don't say ignorant things of the likes that YOU have. (JUST so you know.)

    Fine. You can find a lawyer. Have you ever HAD to? It DOES take money either way and I simply DIDN'T have it. And in my 'defense' (because, thanks to YOU, we all now know that I HAVE one...) I didn't KNOW how this shit worked. I was moving forward, BLIND in all of it. I had never had to deal with anything like that before. I didn't know WTF I was doing. No one was willing to answer questions for whatever reasons they would give when I would ask them. They don't care. They go to work, drink their coffee, hit the court room for an hour, go to lunch, then go back to their offices and FUCK AROUND for the rest of the day.

    7.) Yeah. Because I LIVE here by CHOICE and all...

    And uh...typically...I DO follow the law, JUST SO YOU KNOW. Geez, dude. I'm 28 fucking years old and I only have ONE SPEEDING TICKET. ONE. Up until that point, that was ALL I had on my record. To this day, that speeding ticket and ONE misdemeanor charge ("Attempted Recovery of Stolen Property", Class III Misdemeanor) are ALL that is on my record.

    (But yeah. I'm a CRIMINAL and all... Feh...)

    And uh... WTF are you talking about with all of this female BS? WHO are you talking about? That public defender? I was NOTHING but NICE to that bitch up to the day I was FINALLY sentenced 6 months later. I knew better than to alienate the ONE person that was SUPPOSED to defend me. (But if you guessed that I called that bitch and gave her what-for AFTER I was released...you're GODDAMN RIGHT I DID.)

    As for getting me out? You're SENTENCED. She CAN'T get you out. And she TOLD me that once I was THERE, too. I called her after my first few hours of being in that place...and I asked her, "What happened? WHY did you just STAND THERE and say NOTHING!? Is there any way you can reverse the judge's decision?" She flat-out told me, "No. I can't. It's only two months so they won't use the time."

    Asking questions brings enlightenment. Try it some time.

    8.) Again... I had NO word. And AGAIN I reiterate to you that I didn't have a CLUE as to what I was doing. Who to talk to. What to do. I was supposed to be able to rely on that PD for that, wasn't I? She gave me NO guidance. All she did was say that she figured I would get probation. That's ALL she would really say.

    Well it turns out that she was WRONG. Ya think?

    Man... Are you people even READING even HALF of what I've said?

    Apparently NOT.

     

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  45.  
    identicon
    Cyryl, Oct 5th, 2006 @ 1:27pm

    Re:

    ---ORIGINAL POST---
    by Frank the tank on Oct 5th, 2006 @ 1:15pm

    It's people liek these flamers, those AC's and Laypersons and cyryls that make everyone look bad. they are so full of themselves they don't take the time to understand anyone else.

    i guess that's why the world hates the US, and why the US is sucking majorlly now.
    --------------------------

    I get my own category?

    WOW. What an HONOR!

    LOL!

    But seriously... Why are you even posting? You didn't say ANYTHING relevant to the current conversation.

    We're discussing the JUSTICE SYSTEM at the moment...so...here's your opportunity to CONTRIBUTE.

    Annnnnd.....THREE-TWO-ONE-GO!

    *waits*

    *expects to hear nothing*

    *is laughing because he figures you'll think he's trying to manipulate you into responding*

    *is laughing even harder now because you're probably not sure yourself*

    Anyway... The discussion isn't focusing on international affairs here, either. Let's keep the discussion in our own country's borders. K?

     

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  46.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Oct 5th, 2006 @ 1:36pm

    TECHDIRT LIKES IT IN THE ASS!

    Lay Person here....

    Yeah TECHDIRT is run by a bunch of fudge packin knob-sloberers!

    Ha Ha! TECHDIRT SUCKS!

    Best of all you can't block me!

    HA HA!

    Anyway, TECHDIRT IS A MAJOR WASTE OF PEOPLES TIME!

    STAY AWAY!

     

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  47.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Oct 5th, 2006 @ 1:40pm

    TECHDIRT IS A WASTE!

    Lay Person here...

    I dedicate this to the TECHDIRT NAZI staff who blocked me because they didn't agree with my posts:

    ____________________________


    Mein Kampf by Adolf Hitler


    Volume One - A Reckoning
    Chapter VI: War Propaganda


    EVER since I have been scrutinizing political events, I have taken a tremendous interest in propagandist activity. I saw that the Socialist-Marxist organizations mastered and applied this instrument with astounding skill. And I soon realized that the correct use of propaganda is a true art which has remained practically unknown to the bourgeois parties. Only the Christian-Social movement, especially in Lueger's time, achieved a certain virtuosity on this instrument, to which it owed many of its successes.
    But it was not until the War that it became evident what immense results could be obtained by a correct application of propaganda. Here again, unfortunately, all our studying had to be done on the enemy side, for the activity on our side was modest, to say the least. The total miscarriage of the German 'enlightenment ' service stared every soldier in the face, and this spurred me to take up the question of propaganda even more deeply than before.
    There was often more than enough time for thinking, and the enemy offered practical instruction which, to our sorrow, was only too good.
    For what we failed to do, the enemy did, with amazing skill and really brilliant calculation. I, myself, learned enormously from this enemy war propaganda. But time passed and left no trace in the minds of all those who should have benefited; partly because they considered themselves too clever to from the enemy, partly owing to lack of good will.
    Did we have anything you could call propaganda?
    I regret that I must answer in the negative. Everything that actually was done in this field was so inadequate and wron
    from the very start that it certainly did no good and sometimes did actual harm.
    The form was inadequate, the substance was psychologically wrong: a careful examination of German war propaganda ca: lead to no other diagnosis.
    There seems to have been no clarity on the very first question: Is propaganda a means or an end?
    It is a means and must therefore be judged with regard to its end. It must consequently take a form calculated to support the aim which it serves. It is also obvious that its aim can vary in importance from the standpoint of general need, and that the inner value of the propaganda will vary accordingly. The aim for which we were fighting the War was the loftiest, the most overpowering, that man can conceive: it was the freedom and independence of our nation, the security of our future food supply, and-our national honor; a thing which, despite all contrary opinions prevailing today, nevertheless exists, or rather should exist, since peoples without honor have sooner or later lost their freedom and independence, which in turn is only the result of a higher justice, since generations of rabble without honor deserve no freedom. Any man who wants to be a cowardly slave can have no honor) or honor itself would soon fall into general contempt.
    The German nation was engaged in a struggle for a human existence, and the purpose of war propaganda should have been to support this struggle; its aim to help bring about victory.
    When the nations on this planet fight for existence-when the question of destiny, 'to be or not to be,' cries out for a solution-then all considerations of humanitarianism or aesthetics crumble into nothingness; for all these concepts do not float about in the ether, they arise from man's imagination and are bound up with man. When he departs from this world, these concepts are again dissolved into nothingness, for Nature does not know them. And even among mankind, they belong only to a few nations or rather races, and this in proportion as they emanate from the feeling of the nation or race in question. Humanitarianism and aesthetics would vanish even from a world inhabited by man if this world were to lose the races that have created and upheld these concepts.
    But all such concepts become secondary when a nation is fighting for its existence; in fact, they become totally irrelevant to the forms of the struggle as soon as a situation arises where they might paralyze a struggling nation's power of selfpreservation. And that has always been their only visible result.
    As for humanitarianism, Moltke said years ago that in war it lies in the brevity of the operation, and that means that the most aggressive fighting technique is the most humane.
    But when people try to approach these questions with drivel about aesthetics, etc., really only one answer is possible: where the destiny and existence of a people are at stake, all obligation toward beauty ceases. The most unbeautiful thing there can be in human life is and remains the yoke of slavery. Or do these Schwabing 2 decadents view the present lot of the German people as 'aesthetic'? Certainly we don't have to discuss these matters with the Jews, the most modern inventors of this cultural perfume. Their whole existence is an embodied protest against the aesthetics of the Lord's image.
    And since these criteria of humanitarianism and beauty must be eliminated from the struggle, they are also inapplicable to propaganda.
    Propaganda in the War was a means to an end, and the end wvas the struggle for the existence of the German people; consequently, propaganda could only be considered in accordance with the principles that were valid for this struggle. In this case the most cruel weapons were humane if they brought about a quicker victory; and only those methods were beautiful which helped the nation to safeguard the dignity of its freedom.
    This was the only possible attitude toward war propaganda in a life-and-death struggle like ours.
    If the so-called responsible authorities had been clear on this point, they would never have fallen into such uncertainty over the form and application of this weapon: for even propaganda is no more than a weapon, though a frightful one in the hand of an expert.
    The second really decisive question was this: To whom should propaganda be addressed? To the scientifically trained intelligentsia or to the less educated masses?
    It must be addressed always and exclusively to the masses.
    What the intelligentsia-or those who today unfortunately often go by that name-what they need is not propaganda but scientific instruction. The content of propaganda is not science any more than the object represented in a poster is art. The art of the poster lies in the designer's ability to attract the attention of the crowd by form and color. A poster advertising an art exhibit must direct the attention of the public to the art being exhibited; the better it succeeds in this, the greater is the art of the poster itself. The poster should give the masses an idea of the significance of the exhibition, it should not be a substitute for the art on display. Anyone who wants to concern himself with the art itself must do more than study the poster; and it will not be enough for him just to saunter through the exhibition. We may expect him to examine and immerse himself in the individual works, and thus little by little form a fair opinion.
    A similar situation prevails with what we today call propaganda.
    The function of propaganda does not lie in the scientific training of the individual, but in calling the masses' attention to certain facts, processes, necessities, etc., whose significance is thus for the first time placed within their field of vision.
    The whole art consists in doing this so skillfully that everyone will be convinced that the fact is real, the process necessary, the necessity correct, etc. But since propaganda is not and cannot be the necessity in itself, since its function, like the poster, consists in attracting the attention of the crowd, and not in educating those who are already educated or who are striving after education and knowledge, its effect for the most part must be aimed at the emotions and only to a very limited degree at the so-called intellect.
    All propaganda must be popular and its intellectual level must be adjusted to the most limited intelligence among those it is addressed to. Consequently, the greater the mass it is intended to reach, the lower its purely intellectual level will have to be. But if, as in propaganda for sticking out a war, the aim is to influence a whole people, we must avoid excessive intellectual demands on our public, and too much caution cannot be exerted in this direction.
    The more modest its intellectual ballast, the more exclusively it takes into consideration the emotions of the masses, the more effective it will be. And this is the best proof of the soundness or unsoundness of a propaganda campaign, and not success in pleasing a few scholars or young aesthetes.
    The art of propaganda lies in understanding the emotional ideas of the great masses and finding, through a psychologically correct form, the way to the attention and thence to the heart of the broad masses. The fact that our bright boys do not understand this merely shows how mentally lazy and conceited they are.
    Once we understand how necessary it is for propaganda to be adjusted to the broad mass, the following rule results:
    It is a mistake to make propaganda many-sided, like scientific instruction, for instance.
    The receptivity of the great masses is very limited, their intelligence is small, but their power of forgetting is enormous. In consequence of these facts, all effective propaganda must be limited to a very few points and must harp on these in sloans until the last member of the public understands what you want him to understand by your slogan. As soon as you sacrifice this slogan and try to be many-sided, the effect will piddle away, for the crowd can neither digest nor retain the material offered. In this way the result is weakened and in the end entirely cancelled out.
    Thus we see that propaganda must follow a simple line and correspondingly the basic tactics must be psychologically sound.
    For instance, it was absolutely wrong to make the enemy ridiculous, as the Austrian and German comic papers did. It was absolutely wrong because actual contact with an enemy soldier was bound to arouse an entirely different conviction, and the results were devastating; for now the German soldier, under the direct impression of the enemy's resistance, felt himself swindled by his propaganda service. His desire to fight, or even to stand film, was not strengthened, but the opposite occurred. His courage flagged.
    By contrast, the war propaganda of the English and Americans was psychologically sound. By representing the Germans to their own people as barbarians and Huns, they prepared the individual soldier for the terrors of war, and thus helped to preserve him from disappointments. After this, the most terrible weapon that was used against him seemed only to confirm what his propagandists had told him; it likewise reinforced his faith in the truth of his government's assertions, while on the other hand it increased his rage and hatred against the vile enemy For the cruel effects of the weapon, whose use by the enemy he now came to know, gradually came to confirm for him the 'Hunnish' brutality of the barbarous enemy, which he had heard all about; and it never dawned on him for a moment that his own weapons possibly, if not probably, might be even more terrible in their effects.
    And so the English soldier could never feel that he had been misinformed by his own countrymen, as unhappily was so much the case with the German soldier that in the end he rejected everything coming from this source as 'swindles' and 'bunk.' All this resulted from the idea that any old simpleton (or even somebody who was intelligent ' in other things ') could be assigned to propaganda work, and the failure to realize that the most brilliant psychologists would have been none too good.
    And so the German war propaganda offered an unparalleled example of an 'enlightenment' service working in reverse, since any correct psychology was totally lacking.
    There was no end to what could be learned from the enemy by a man who kept his eyes open, refused to let his perceptions be ossified, and for four and a half years privately turned the stormflood of enemy propaganda over in his brain.
    What our authorities least of all understood was the very first axiom of all propagandist activity: to wit, the basically subjective and one-sided attitude it must take toward every question it deals with. In this connection, from the very beginning of the War and from top to bottom, such sins were committed that we were entitled to doubt whether so much absurdity could really be attributed to pure stupidity alone.
    What, for example, would we say about a poster that was supposed to advertise a new soap and that described other soaps as 'good'?
    We would only shake our heads.
    Exactly the same applies to political advertising.
    The function of propaganda is, for example, not to weigh and ponder the rights of different people, but exclusively to emphasize the one right which it has set out to argue for. Its task is not to make an objective study of the truth, in so far as it favors the enemy, and then set it before the masses with academic fairness; its task is to serve our own right, always and unflinchingly.
    It was absolutely wrong to discuss war-guilt from the standpoint that Germany alone could not be held responsible for the outbreak of the catastrophe; it would have been correct to load every bit of the blame on the shoulders of the enemy, even if this had not really corresponded to the true facts, as it actually did.
    And what was the consequence of this halfheartedness?
    The broad mass of a nation does not consist of diplomats, or even professors of political law, or even individuals capable of forming a rational opinion; it consists of plain mortals, wavering and inclined to doubt and uncertainty. As soon as our own propaganda admits so much as a glimmer of right on the other side, the foundation for doubt in our own right has been laid. The masses are then in no position to distinguish where foreign injustice ends and our own begins. In such a case they become uncertain and suspicious, especially if the enemy refrains from going in for the same nonsense, but unloads every bit of blame on his adversary. Isn't it perfectly understandable that the whole country ends up by lending more credence to enemy propaganda, which is more unified and coherent, than to its own? And particularly a people that suffers from the mania of objectivity as much as the Germans. For, after all this, everyone will take the greatest pains to avoid doing the enemy any injustice, even at the peril of seriously besmirching and even destroying his own people and country.
    Of course, this was not the intent of the responsible authorities, but the people never realize that.
    The people in their overwhelming majority are so feminine by nature and attitude that sober reasoning determines their thoughts and actions far less than emotion and feeling. And this sentiment is not complicated, but very simple and all of a piece. It does not have multiple shadings; it has a positive and a negative; love or hate, right or wrong, truth or lie never half this way and half that way, never partially, or that kind of thing.
    English propagandists understood all this most brilliantly-and acted accordingly. They made no half statements that might have given rise to doubts.
    Their brilliant knowledge of the primitive sentiments of the broad masses is shown by their atrocity propaganda, which was adapted to this condition. As ruthless as it was brilliant, it created the preconditions for moral steadfastness at the front, even in the face of the greatest actual defeats, and just as strikingly it pilloried the German enemy as the sole guilty party for the outbreak of the War: the rabid, impudent bias and persistence with which this lie was expressed took into account the emotional, always extreme, attitude of the great masses and for this reason was believed.
    How effective this type of propaganda was is most strikingly shown by the fact that after four years of war it not only enabled the enemy to stick to its guns, but even began to nibble at our own people.
    It need not surprise us that our propaganda did not enjoy this success. In its inner ambiguity alone, it bore the germ of ineffectualness. And finally its content was such that it was very vunlikely to make the necessary impression on the masses. Only our feather-brained 'statesmen' could have dared to hope that this insipid pacifistic bilge could fire men's spirits till they were willing to die.
    As a result, their miserable stuff 1 was useless, even harmful in fact.
    But the most brilliant propagandist technique will yield no success unless one fundamental principle is borne in mind constantly and with unfiagging attention. It must confine itself to a few points and repeat them over and over. Here, as so often in this world, persistence is the first and most important requirement for success.
    Particularly in the field of propaganda, we must never let ourselves be led by aesthetes or people who have grown blase: not by the former, because the form and expression of our propaganda would soon, instead of being suitable for the masses, have drawing power only for literary teas; and of the second we must beware, because, lacking in any fresh emotion of their own, they are always on the lookout for new stimulation. These people are quick to weary of everything; they want variety, and they are never able to feel or understand the needs of their fellow men who are not yet so callous. They are always the first to criticize a propaganda campaign, or rather its content, which seems to them too old-fashioned, too hackneyed, too out-of-date, etc. They are always after novelty, in search of a change, and this makes them mortal enemies of any effective political propaganda. For as soon as the organization and the content of propaganda begin to suit their tastes, it loses all cohesion and evaporates completely.
    The purpose of propaganda is not to provide interesting distraction for blase young gentlemen, but to convince, and what I mean is to convince the masses. But the masses are slowmoving, and they always require a certain time before they are ready even to notice a thing, and only after the simplest ideas are repeated thousands of times will the masses finally remember them.
    When there is a change, it must not alter the content of what the propaganda is driving at, but in the end must always say the same thing. For instance, a slogan must be presented from different angles, but the end of all remarks must always and immutably be the slogan itself. Only in this way can the propaganda have a unified and complete effect.
    This broadness of outline from which we must never depart, in combination with steady, consistent emphasis, allows our final success to mature. And then, to our amazement, we shall see what tremendous results such perseverance leads to-to results that are almost beyond our understanding.
    All advertising, whether in the field of business or politics, achieves success through the continuity and sustained uniformity of its application.
    Here, too, the example of enemy war propaganda was typical; limited to a few points, devised exdusively for the masses, carried on with indefatigable persistence. Once the basic ideas and methods of execution were recognized as correct, they were applied throughout the whole War without the slightest change. At first the claims of the propaganda were so impudent that people thought it insane; later, it got on people's nerves; and in the end, it was believed. After four and a half years, a revolution broke out in Germany; and its slogans originated in the enemy's war propaganda.
    And in England they understood one more thing: that this spiritual weapon can succeed only if it is applied on a tremendous scale, but that success amply covers all costs.
    There, propaganda was regarded as a weapon of the first order, while in our country it was the last resort of unemployed politicians and a comfortable haven for slackers.
    And, as was to be expected, its results all in all were zero.

     

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  48.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Oct 5th, 2006 @ 1:43pm

    TECHDIRT NAZI MOVEMENT

    TECHDIRT STAFF ARE A BUNCH OF NAZI LOVERS!

    THERE BLOCK THAT YOU FUCKING ASSWIPES!

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  49.  
    identicon
    Cyryl, Oct 5th, 2006 @ 1:43pm

    Alright...well I'm done here.

    Yeah. I'm done here. I've said all I really can say.

    Just for the record... I don't discount ANY of you for trying to maintain good faith in our so-called "Justice System".

    I'm SO glad you're all very quick to judge the opinion that I have built based on my VERY REAL experiences.

    It's not a point of view. It REALLY happened that way. I know the truth and they DENIED me any chance to tell it.

    So you can bag on me for being angry, but you CAN'T change it. You CAN NOT deny that I AM an intelligent individual who DOES have a sound mind. (Not that I mean to imply that I think so highly of myself. But "intelligent" WOULD be the category that I would most likely fit into in society...were I to be categorized by intelligence factor alone. DON'T TAKE IT OUT OF CONTEXT.)

    I conclude that you're only trying to anger me further to amuse yourselves or justify some hidden opinion of your own...so at this point I have to figure that responding to most of you is POINTLESS.

    That and this is taking far too much of my time now.

    You were SUPPOSED to take my experiences and be INFORMED of something. That's all.

    Now...don't go trying to label me as some kind of Anonymous Coward here by implying that I'm running away, either.

    If ANY of you have questions...PLEASE feel FREE to send me an e-mail to ask them! I WILL respond eventually...AS LONG AS you are INTELLIGENT in your approach. If all you're going to do is flame me, then you will NOT receive a response. And YES. It IS my discretion that will decide what IS or ISN'T an assault on me. (Obviously.)

    ALL OF YOU ARE capable of telling me that you disagree with me WITHOUT being a misinformed, uneducated douche bag. All you have to do is TRY. (Using the internet to do a little research never killed ME before opening my mouth...)

    Here is my e-mail:
    cyrylthewolf@gmail.com

    Later all.

     

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  50.  
    identicon
    Cyryl, Oct 5th, 2006 @ 1:45pm

    Re: TECHDIRT NAZI MOVEMENT

    ---ORIGINAL POST---
    TECHDIRT NAZI MOVEMENT by Anonymous Coward on Oct 5th, 2006 @ 1:43pm

    TECHDIRT STAFF ARE A BUNCH OF NAZI LOVERS!

    THERE BLOCK THAT YOU FUCKING ASSWIPES!
    -----------------------------

    And uh...dude?

    You SERIOUSLY need to CHILL with that. NOW you're being an unintelligent FUCK.

    Geez... And here I thought at first that you might've been kind of cool.

    *shakes head*

    Nothing ceases to disappoint me.

     

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  51.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Oct 5th, 2006 @ 1:45pm

    Re: Alright...well I'm done here.

    Yeah I'm out too losers!

    I'll be back though every once in a while... I'll bag Techdirt staff because I enjoy it.

    TECHDIRT SUCKS!

     

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  52.  
    identicon
    Lay Person, Oct 5th, 2006 @ 1:53pm

    Wait a minute...

    Hey, wait a minute, whoever is using my avatar, please stop.

    I never wrote anything beyond #34.

    I don't know anything about the remaining posts!

    This is lame, I'm being an ass and it's not even me...

     

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  53.  
    identicon
    Cyryl, Oct 5th, 2006 @ 2:04pm

    Re: Lay and Cyryl

    ---ORIGINAL POST---
    Lay and Cyryl by dorpus on Oct 5th, 2006 @ 12:29pm

    hey ley and cyryl...are you too prison love buddies? you sound like it:)

    and if not, you'd make a great couple.

     

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  54.  
    identicon
    Cyryl, Oct 5th, 2006 @ 2:09pm

    CONTINUING POST #53

    Hmm... The pages posted without the Submit button being hit. In mid-post. Sorry about that... (Odd.)

    Anyway...

    ---ORIGINAL POST---
    Lay and Cyryl by dorpus on Oct 5th, 2006 @ 12:29pm

    hey ley and cyryl...are you too prison love buddies? you sound like it:)

    and if not, you'd make a great couple.
    ----------------------------

    Dorpus... Would you mind describing to us SPECIFICALLY what 'prison love buddies' sound like? In ALL of your experience in these matters...SURELY you can describe this to us?

    And "like you and lay" or any other commentary indicating a similar reference will be unacceptable and regarded as IGNORANGE.

    Please continue. I'm waiting to hear what you've got to say.

    *waits*

     

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  55.  
    identicon
    Lay Person, Oct 5th, 2006 @ 2:17pm

    I'm done...

    I'm done with TechDirt.

    Does anyone know a blog where I can register myself and engage about political, economic, news, and tech new/articles?

    I think the problem here is that Techdirt doesn't register users, so any schmuck can come on here, start shit, take all as a joke and waste everyones time.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  56.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Oct 5th, 2006 @ 4:42pm

    um cyryl

    did you get molested in jail or something? You're a bit too rabid. Word of advice - screaming and yelling accomplishes nothing. If your original post wasn't so crazy, people might have listened. Instead, you just turned everybody off.

    For the record, I know how the justice system works. The justice system is used to slimy career criminals who know how to loophole their way out of the system. Its used to lawyers who know the system and weasel their clients out. When an average, law abiding citizen somehow gets caught in that mess it gets real ugly.

     

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  57.  
    identicon
    Frank the Tank, Oct 5th, 2006 @ 6:36pm

    i think i know why cyryl is so pissy. when he was "narced" on, instead of cooperating with the popos he told them to f off, and get a warrent. and i think the popos didn't like that too much, and when they came back they decided to give you an extra hard time. you started shit with them, defying their authority, so they stuck it to you. i don't blame them.

     

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  58.  
    icon
    Mike (profile), Oct 5th, 2006 @ 7:03pm

    Re: What do you propose?

    OK, Mike, what do you suggest instead?

    She lost her job and her credibility, which is a pretty good start. If there really is something here, it sounds a lot more like a misdemeanor than a felony.

    The methods used to get those records are, as you've said yourself, a form of identity theft.

    Indeed, but look at the purpose. Most identity theft is then followed up with actual theft, or ruining of your credit, or something a lot more harmful than trying to plug a leak.

    She engaged in fraud. Treat her as such.

    She engaged in fraud -- but not to enrich herself or her company, and not to steal from anyone. I think that needs to be taken into account.

     

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  59.  
    identicon
    honico, Oct 6th, 2006 @ 2:33am

    Re: Re: -Blotter-Blogger: Post a link!

    Yo, Cyryl
    This is a great read; your bust, battle and such. I'd enjoy the official read. Would you post a link? -Nebraska (like most states now) posts this stuff if it makes it above District and/ Or Appeals. Google yourself... Nebraska vs. Cyryl (or whatever the actual case was called) and come back w/ a link. The transcripts will show just how bad you were shafted AND will keep us rolling (since we know this ISN'T EVER going to happen to 'Dunn). How 'bout it?

    -Then, as soon as Cyryl posts his link, I challange all squatters, lurkers, campers and psuedo-avatars to post a *better* ruling, by way of the state reporting system. The two only rules are: 1. It must be a *public* fugure. -Public BEFORE the case went public/ was heard. -and- 2. Ken Lay is off limits.

    Who's in?

    honico
    //
    //

     

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  60.  
    identicon
    Spazoid, Oct 17th, 2006 @ 7:22pm

    Re: Re:Cyryl does you bum hurt?

    You're so full of venom Cyryl...and being a felon does
    not make one any sort of expert in legal matters,
    contrary to what you cellmate may have told you.
    Did they hurt you in jail? You seem very Bitter.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]


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