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  • On the post: Dan Bull Shares His Thoughts On The Pirate Bay Being Blocked Right After Helping His Music Get On The Charts

    Torg ( profile ), 06 May, 2012 @ 09:29pm

    Re: Claim and counter claim

    "That isn't what I've been saying. Why mischaracterize the counter claim?"

    Err, because in the post I was responding to you said "Well you're just arguing based on guesswork and a biased personal opinion. You really have no idea whether or not Bull had the money in his account to buy more music software. No one does except Bull", which seems to pretty clearly be insinuating that you think he might've been able to afford it. I suppose it might've been my fault for assuming your posts would contain relevant responses to mine, rather than random statements that are true when removed from context, but that's the only way I know how to hold a conversation.

    "He could have supported other young creative people buy buying some music software however"

    He could have. If it were available for purchase at the time, he probably should have. I still say choosing not to buy software does not qualify as abuse.

    "I believe people make financial choices. Bull chose to pirate music software claiming he couldn't afford it. At the same time he presumably could afford to become heavily involved in gaming."

    Those are two very different financial commitments. Over the last three years I've spent a total of around a thousand dollars on video games, and I'm at least involved enough in gaming to understand everything he's talked about. Unless you go and buy every game you see a positive review for, gaming isn't a very large immediate drain on one's financial resources.

    And, since you're still pointing out the existence of Reaper like not buying it makes him the scum of the Earth, I will point out once again that it became available for purchase in August of 2006, the same year that Dan Bull started releasing music. Since Wikipedia wouldn't provide me with a month on Bull's end, there is (barring further information) a chance of seven out of twelve that it was not possible for Dan Bull to purchase Reaper because it was not possible for anyone to purchase Reaper. Should he have done all this in the first seven months of the year, would you like to try arguing how downloading freeware helps its programmers put food on the table?

    "Bull says he 'lives for the internet'. Where I live it costs money to 'live for the internet'."

    Where I live it doesn't cost all that much.

  • On the post: Dan Bull Shares His Thoughts On The Pirate Bay Being Blocked Right After Helping His Music Get On The Charts

    Torg ( profile ), 06 May, 2012 @ 07:59pm

    Re: Re: ?two of the largest and most brutal dictatorships in the twentieth century were not religious in nature, but atheistic and secular: ?

    Maybe people are just far more okay with killing each other over minor provocations or differing beliefs than we like to think, and the particular brand of belief doesn't matter much. That's all irrelevant, though, because I don't think any of the quotes used in that discussion were advocating the slaughtering of heretics.

  • On the post: Dan Bull Shares His Thoughts On The Pirate Bay Being Blocked Right After Helping His Music Get On The Charts

    Torg ( profile ), 06 May, 2012 @ 07:55pm

    Re: Music Software a vice?

    "You really have no idea whether or not Bull had the money in his account to buy more music software. No one does except Bull."

    I have a claim from someone who was familiar with Bull's finances that he could not pay for it. That's more than the opposing claim of "he totally could've afforded to pay thousands of dollars for plugins" has, unless there's a particular reason to suspect his claim.

    "You are guessing that no software company he pirated wasn't 'inconvenienced'. The developers rely on sales to keep the business going."

    If no sale could happen no sale is lost. Calling that "guessing" requires dismissing the claim of the only person we've got a statement from who could reliably report how much money Dan Bull had.

    "Bull pirated what he wanted, so we'll never know if he could or should have bought the products, but although not all pirated products are lost sales, SOME pirated products ARE lost sales."

    I don't think I've disputed that pirated products can be lost sales. I've disputed that THESE pirated products were lost sales.

  • On the post: Dan Bull Shares His Thoughts On The Pirate Bay Being Blocked Right After Helping His Music Get On The Charts

    Torg ( profile ), 06 May, 2012 @ 07:12pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Entitled?

    "He didn't have enough money to drive a Ferrari either."

    And if people could get Ferraris without inconveniencing Ferrari then I wouldn't see the harm in them doing that either.

    "That is heroic in your book? Or Bull acting as role model?"

    No; at best it shows he was ignorant regarding the options available to him, and at worst it means he was petty. I view piracy in the same light I view gambling or alcohol: not my thing, but not bad enough to try to make everyone else stop.

  • On the post: Dan Bull Shares His Thoughts On The Pirate Bay Being Blocked Right After Helping His Music Get On The Charts

    Torg ( profile ), 06 May, 2012 @ 06:33pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Entitled?

    "Why not?"

    Because his bank account was not large enough.

    "Why?"

    Because it's an appeal to emotion. The number of people benefiting from a payment is irrelevant when in one case (Waves or whoever he used) such payment was not possible, and in the other (Reaper) nothing that would require payment was done.

  • On the post: Dan Bull Shares His Thoughts On The Pirate Bay Being Blocked Right After Helping His Music Get On The Charts

    Torg ( profile ), 06 May, 2012 @ 06:27pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    The ones he could afford were not the ones that he downloaded. He made music with something that he could not buy. The "he should've bought this" argument is a good one, but it's entirely separate from the "the people making the software he pirated were ripped off" argument.

  • On the post: Dan Bull Shares His Thoughts On The Pirate Bay Being Blocked Right After Helping His Music Get On The Charts

    Torg ( profile ), 06 May, 2012 @ 06:24pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Entitled?

    "Bull harms the young entrepreneurs who put their own money into developing and selling music software.
    You're simply an abuser if you take such music software without contributing."

    I find this argument unconvincing. Contribution to the company whose software he used was not possible, so not paying for their stuff can't be considered abuse. Contribution to another company might have been possible, but that would be really stretching the definition of abuse. So I don't see where the abuse occurred.

    "The money doesn't go to mega corporations, or to middle men, it goes directly to people like Bull. people who instead of rapping about piracy, have worked to bring great software to the table."

    Don't care. I've never particularly liked the "IT GOES TO CORPORATIONS!!!11!!!" argument, and I find myself similarly unmoved by the "they're just normal people trying to make a living" argument.

    "He didn't need to download thousands of pounds worth of music software because he already had a cracked version of Cubase, and for eq's, synths, compressors, filters, etc, etc there were/are numerous cheap and free alternatives available. Plus there is no creative imperative to own and use 'thousand of pounds' worth of music software."

    Which just makes it immoral, not harmful, since the net effect of downloading freeware would be exactly the same as downloading not-freeware for free.

  • On the post: Dan Bull Shares His Thoughts On The Pirate Bay Being Blocked Right After Helping His Music Get On The Charts

    Torg ( profile ), 06 May, 2012 @ 05:43pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Entitled?

    "For example, he could have switched to reaper for $60 and supported three young entrepreneurs, after his copy of Cubase became to 'buggy' to use."

    Except that both it and him came out in 2006, so it's possible that he could not have. There was a freeware version of Reaper before August 2006, but downloading that wouldn't have supported anyone.

    "Maybe Bull needs to make better choices, both morally and technically?"

    Maybe. I've already conceded that it was immoral; you still haven't satisfactorily explained why it was harmful. As it stands I still don't see why it's worse than any other vice.

    Yes, you'll have to do better than just saying "what he did was immoral!" Some immoralities aren't worth getting that worked up about.

  • On the post: Dan Bull Shares His Thoughts On The Pirate Bay Being Blocked Right After Helping His Music Get On The Charts

    Torg ( profile ), 06 May, 2012 @ 05:34pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    "If you've downloaded it without paying, you've heard of it, right?"

    He didn't download Reaper. You're confusing your arguments.

  • On the post: Dan Bull Shares His Thoughts On The Pirate Bay Being Blocked Right After Helping His Music Get On The Charts

    Torg ( profile ), 06 May, 2012 @ 05:32pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Entitled?

    No, I found out about it when Wikipedia shut down and didn't do much else except figure out how to access Wikipedia despite the blackout. Now, since I'm not fluent in legalese, could you please give me the tl;dr?

  • On the post: Dan Bull Shares His Thoughts On The Pirate Bay Being Blocked Right After Helping His Music Get On The Charts

    Torg ( profile ), 06 May, 2012 @ 05:13pm

    Re: Re: Re:

    Okay, as much as I agree that not using the cheaper alternative goes against the idea that people pirate because there aren't alternatives, in no sane world is someone who doesn't buy a product, doesn't use a product, and may very well not have heard of a product considered to be abusing the makers of that product.

  • On the post: Dan Bull Shares His Thoughts On The Pirate Bay Being Blocked Right After Helping His Music Get On The Charts

    Torg ( profile ), 06 May, 2012 @ 05:09pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Entitled?

    He did spend $500 on music software. He just didn't give sixty of it to the company you think he should've supported.

    And Reaper first became available for sale in August of the year he started releasing music. It's entirely possible that buying it was not an option at the time.

  • On the post: Dan Bull Shares His Thoughts On The Pirate Bay Being Blocked Right After Helping His Music Get On The Charts

    Torg ( profile ), 06 May, 2012 @ 04:22pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Entitled?

    tl;dr

  • On the post: Dan Bull Shares His Thoughts On The Pirate Bay Being Blocked Right After Helping His Music Get On The Charts

    Torg ( profile ), 06 May, 2012 @ 04:19pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Logic

    Firstly, it is most certainly not plain to see that it's jealousy. A couple years ago I believed everything this guy is saying, no jealousy involved. It's entirely possible that this guy doesn't have ulterior motives and is simply working from a flawed premise.

    Secondly, calling someone a jealous wee bitch is exactly the opposite of how you go about making someone seriously consider whatever point you're trying to make. Best case scenario is that they ignore you, the worst case is that they become defensive and also ignore other people who aren't as much of an asshole as you are. Regardless of what objective you're aiming for, all you'll do that way is piss them off. (As an example, had I just posted "FAIL! Learn some psychology, dipshit", you probably would have given my argument less consideration than you've given this one)

  • On the post: Dan Bull Shares His Thoughts On The Pirate Bay Being Blocked Right After Helping His Music Get On The Charts

    Torg ( profile ), 06 May, 2012 @ 10:33am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Entitled?

    Defined as?
    You're not very good at this "in English" business.

  • On the post: Dan Bull Shares His Thoughts On The Pirate Bay Being Blocked Right After Helping His Music Get On The Charts

    Torg ( profile ), 06 May, 2012 @ 09:31am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Entitled?

    In English, please, because the only part of that I understood was "cut off financial support to rogue sites", and as I understand it the only way rogue sites would be identified was on accusation.

  • On the post: Dan Bull Shares His Thoughts On The Pirate Bay Being Blocked Right After Helping His Music Get On The Charts

    Torg ( profile ), 06 May, 2012 @ 07:03am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Entitled?

    What does it being jurisdictional have to do with anything?

  • On the post: Dan Bull Shares His Thoughts On The Pirate Bay Being Blocked Right After Helping His Music Get On The Charts

    Torg ( profile ), 06 May, 2012 @ 04:52am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Entitled?

    And we're back to pointing out that he didn't have enough money to choose to buy it. None of the choices he could have made in that situation would have supported those kids.

  • On the post: Dan Bull Shares His Thoughts On The Pirate Bay Being Blocked Right After Helping His Music Get On The Charts

    Torg ( profile ), 05 May, 2012 @ 11:11pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Entitled?

    If my wife just listened to me, I wouldn't have to beat her. All I want is a hot meal every day when I get home from work; that's not unreasonable, right?

    The reasonableness of a person's desires is at best tangentially related to whether or not their actions are justified. SOPA and PIPA were far out of line; the only ones to blame for them are the ones who tried pushing them through.

  • On the post: Dan Bull Shares His Thoughts On The Pirate Bay Being Blocked Right After Helping His Music Get On The Charts

    Torg ( profile ), 05 May, 2012 @ 08:44pm

    Re:

    "Because it highlights the pirate lie they are taking stuff because there is no free, or cheap alternative. When it comes to writing and recording hip-hop, there ABSOLUTELY is."

    Okay, that's a fair point against that argument.

    Now that we've established that what he did was immoral, perhaps you'd like to explain why you think what he did is at all comparable to blocking a major part of his distribution model?

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