Pandora: We're Helping Artists Make Millions & We'd Like To Keep Doing That

from the interesting-to-see dept

For all the talk of new music platforms not paying artists enough, we keep hearing counter stories. The latest is that Pandora has revealed that two artists — Drake and Lil’ Wayne — will make somewhere close to $3 million in royalty payments from Pandora this year. Lots of other artists make many thousands of dollars as well:

Have you heard of Donnie McClurkin, French Montana or Grupo Bryndis? If you haven’t you’re not alone. They are artists whose sales ranks on Amazon are 4,752, 17,000 and 183,187, respectively. These are all working artists who live well outside the mainstream – no steady rotation on broadcast radio, no high profile opening slots on major tours, no front page placement in online retail. What they also have in common is a steady income from Pandora. In the next twelve months Pandora is on track to pay performance fees of $100,228, $138,567 and $114,192, respectively, for the music we play to their large and fast-growing audiences on Pandora.

And that’s just the tip of the iceberg. For over two thousand artists Pandora will pay over $10,000 dollars each over the next 12 months (including one of my favorites, the late jazz pianist Oscar Peterson), and for more than 800 we’ll pay over $50,000, more than the income of the average American household. For top earners like Coldplay, Adele, Wiz Khalifa, Jason Aldean and others Pandora is already paying over $1 million each. Drake and Lill Wayne are fast approaching a $3 million annual rate each.

Of course, while all of this is happening, Pandora is not yet profitable, and may never be profitable — as it is required, under current webcasting rates, to pay about 50% of its revenue out as royalties (while terrestrial radio and satellite radio get to pay much, much less). As Tim Westergren has pointed out, because of the crazy rates, plenty of other webcasting operations have just left the business entirely — meaning that there just aren’t that many players in this space, because it just isn’t profitable for the companies, even as they’re developing important new revenue streams for artists.

I’ll have more on this later, but it often seems that legacy players really have no concept of “the golden goose.” They assume that any tech company, who is moderately successful in getting users, simply should be bled dry, paying out just about everything to artists, with nothing left for the companies themselves. They think that the music is the entire value, and the service provided is not very important. And yet, without that service, none of that money would come in at all. At some point, the legacy guys are going to have to realize that they’re better off having a healthy ecosystem of services, rather than squeezing the absolute highest rates out of these companies, in a way where they can’t survive.

Filed Under: , , , , , , ,
Companies: pandora

Rate this comment as insightful
Rate this comment as funny
You have rated this comment as insightful
You have rated this comment as funny
Flag this comment as abusive/trolling/spam
You have flagged this comment
The first word has already been claimed
The last word has already been claimed
Insightful Lightbulb icon Funny Laughing icon Abusive/trolling/spam Flag icon Insightful badge Lightbulb icon Funny badge Laughing icon Comments icon

Comments on “Pandora: We're Helping Artists Make Millions & We'd Like To Keep Doing That”

Subscribe: RSS Leave a comment
44 Comments
Ninja (profile) says:

If the MAFIAA saw value in the service provided they’d know by now how Google makes its money. Yet they seem to think Google only profits on the content generated by the users…

Netflix, Pandora, Spotify and many others are there to simply crush their favorite argument that you can’t compete with free and yet they are simply ignoring it and worse, trying to kill them.

Futile discussion, focus on preventing them from changing the laws in their favor and wait till they die naturally by multiple shots in the feet.

Ninja (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

U sure you read the article? He’s criticizing the royalties paid. Who deals with the royalties? That’s right, the MAFIAA. +1 candy for you.

Also, the term is used to refer to the anti-piracy collectives in general and how their behavior are similar to the Mafias with less illegal moves and much more legal abuse of the system.

The fact that it is a meme alright is new to me though, thanks for informing. The fact that you think it’s infantile is irrelevant 😉

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re:

Same here. I’d be using both if only Pandora were available, and back before the restriction I discovered quite a few new artists with it.

I keep wondering why artists are not complaining much more about how things like this keep their audience from even hearing about them in the first place.

Keroberos (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

I keep wondering why artists are not complaining much more about how things like this keep their audience from even hearing about them in the first place.

Many are. The problem is all the artists still locked into the the record labels may not be aware of how much services like these are helping them reach new fans–and generate new revenue. The record labels like to keep it this way–the more artists that realize they no longer need them, the less likely they it is that they can get these artists to sign new contracts with them.

TroutFishingUSA says:

Re: Re: Re: Re:

Have you ever gotten any of your music played on Pandora? (I have) This idea that they’re helping out unknown artists is a little misguided, even though that myth is perpetuated by Pandora themselves. They used to be very open to accepting unknown–and I mean unknown backwoods type–submissions. Sadly, about four or five years ago, they massively overhauled their submissions process and have become just one more needless gatekeeper kowtowing to label interests. Unsigned artists need not apply.

:Lobo Santo (profile) says:

Into the wild future!

Pandora is not yet profitable, and may never be profitable — as it is required, under current webcasting rates, to pay about 50% of its revenue out as royalties (while terrestrial radio and satellite radio get to pay much, much less).


This is perfect! Now, when radio broadcasting fades away, they groundwork for raping webcasters will already be a precedent and the US Courts & DOJ will continue to violently enforce the MAFIAA “rights” to “earn” money for doing not a damn thing.

(/shill /troll /not.sure.what.to.tag.this.with)

Anonymous Coward says:

1- Online service pops up, driving people to spend money on music instead of just pirating it. Musicians are making money, customers are happy, life is peachy;
2- Kill online service;
3- Profit?

See Mike, the RIAA didn’t need a fancy-pants website to figure what step 2 is. Just kill everything that looks different, and then complain you ass off when people resort to piracy due to lack of legitimate options.

New Mexico Mark says:

Re: Re:

Plays music based on stylistic preferences (and fine-tunes those preferences over time).

It’s like having a radio station you can tune to your own favorite styles. Besides my favorites, I often hear new music, and I usually enjoy it because it matches styles I enjoy. it’s certainly a good idea. I wish they “tuned” on lyrical preferences as well, but maybe someday if they’re not out of business…

Greg (profile) says:

Re: Re:

Pandora is my favourite online music service. LOVE Pandora. I’ve found so many new artists there in the past because of the way its music recommendation engine works. No other service offers recommendations like it that I’m aware of, and I’ve tried last.fm and a couple others. Sadly, it’s no longer available in Canada due to copyright issues, so the amount of new music I get exposed to has dropped off massively. Thanks RIAA! 🙁

P.S. Did I suddenly go back to the record shops when Pandora Canada disappeared? Nope. Still searching for an equivalent internet alternative.

Anonymous Coward says:

the legacy companies bleed the web companies dry so they dont have to do anything themselves to adapt or adopt. the artists get paid and so do they, leaving basically nothing for those doing the work. this is all intentional though, so that the fewer web companies there are, the better. the legacy companies having the opinion that customers will go back to the shops and buy cds again. all i can say is, carry on guys. you are killing the golden goose. sooner or later the web sales will stop but the stampede back to cds is never gonna happen. yes, the web sites will disappear but so will you, and not a day too soon!!

out_of_the_blue says:

"Pandora is not yet profitable, and may never be profitable..."

First, yes, I read the reason above. I’m sure royalty rates are too high.

But I don’t just skip past the HUGE QUESTION! — Who exactly is funding this perpetually LOSING MODEL?

There are corollaries: if Pandora can withstand the current royalty rates (however it does), what’s wrong with them? Obvioulsy it’s found “whatever the market will bear”. (Costs DON’T matter if the profits are high enough — not even the “profit margin”, but the amounts that go to everyone involved.)

Second corollary is that manifestly more is going on in this losing propostion than Mike bothers with. I’d suspect either tax advantages or hidden kickbacks. But Mention-Then-Forget Mike* the Ivy League economist doesn’t think that’s interesting…

[* In his “can’t compete” piece still featured on a side link, Mike mentions “sunk (or fixed) costs” of $100 million for a movie, then utterly forgets it! Yeah, it’s easy when your “business” can lose money or ignore costs. But nothing on this site is real world examples, it’s all JUST “models”.]

Ninja (profile) says:

Re: "Pandora is not yet profitable, and may never be profitable..."

There are corollaries: if Pandora can withstand the current royalty rates (however it does), what’s wrong with them?

If you can survive with very basic stuff (namely food, water, basic clothing and a home) what’s wrong with the Government charges 90% of your monthly wage as tax? See the problem with your comment? The current rates do not allow for reasonable profits for the ones providing such services.

As for your sunk cost whining it’s fairly simple: do you believe Pandora would be able to sustain itself if people didn’t find their service useful? Do you really think it matters that $100 million were spent if the movie is utter crap? Do you ignore the fact that the most pirated movies are also mind blowing revenue successes? Can you please explain what the fuck this has to do with charging slightly lower rates so businesses like Pandora and Netflix can thrive and take your content to the users in a manner they’ll pay regardless of having the opportunity of getting for free?

I don’t think you can give a reasonable reply for any of those besides your meaningless, baseless and annoying whining.

TroutFishingUSA says:

Re: Re: "Pandora is not yet profitable, and may never be profitable..."

The current rates do not allow for reasonable profits for the ones providing such services.

I’m confused. Are you referring to the artists’ services or Pandora’s services? Because if Pandora is allowed to pay what US radio pays (or doesn’t pay, really), then the artists are the ones who will be denied a reasonable profit for their services.

It’s a simple solution: if Pandora can’t pay artists, Pandora shouldn’t play artists. It’s what every single business has to deal with. If McDonald’s can’t pay employees, then Mickey D’s doesn’t get employees. They don’t get to have the government indenture employees to them. There are plenty of small artists who will go in with Pandora at lower rates, but we all know that it’s the BIG artists that get the eyeballs/listens, so Pandora would be foolish to forgo those catalogs. But since they can’t afford it (or rather, their execs don’t get enough profit to snort bad blow off half-dressed nitwits), they want the government to step in. It’s sick stuff.

I see no reason why the government or anybody else should be forcing artists to lower their rates.

And I used to like Pandora; but trying to perpetuate this rip off that was started by US radio is unconscionable. Let’s take a look at some of the company we keep among those countries that also don’t have radio performance rights: North Korea, Iran, China, Rwanda.

TOG says:

Paying out 50% of revenues should not equal no profits

I agree that it is inequitable for online streaming companies to pay royalties equal to 50% of revenues when traditional radio pays far less.

However, I really have to wonder why Pandora is unable to earn a profit.

Consider a traditional retailer. They purchase goods, pay rents, pay salaries, etc., etc. They then sell goods for a markup that is almost never 100%. In some industries, the markups are in single digit percentages.

If you think about the requirement of paying 50% of revenues instead as simply that Pandora is selling its product (i.e., the license to listen to a streamed song) for a 100% markup, it’s a lot harder to feel sorry for them.

Perhaps, instead of complaining that they are not profitable because of the “revenue sharing” (i.e., legal extortion) scheme, Pandora should be looking at why it is not profitable.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Paying out 50% of revenues should not equal no profits

I would assume that the reason they are not profitable is not due to the licensing fees being paid to the artists, but due to the additional fees they have to pay to the labels to have the ability to OFFER the artists music.

Compare to a radio station and the costs are similar, utilities, equipment, and personnel which make up a large portion of the expenses (lets say 50%)… now if the radio stations have to pay a 20% licensing fee to the labels, they still have a 30% profit margin… if Pandora has to pay a 50% licensing fee (mainly to the artists), they have 0% profit margin….

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Paying out 50% of revenues should not equal no profits

“However, I really have to wonder why Pandora is unable to earn a profit.”

That’s the killer here. Mike goes on and on about bandwidth being so cheap, and all that, and yet when it comes time to explain why a company doesn’t make money, suddenly bandwidth is a big expense.

The business model of Pandora should be a huge money spinner. Any business where the basic costs of operations are fixed as a percentage of advertising means they should be profitable if they scale up. Pandora’s real problem appears to be not enough clients, not enough advertising to cover it’s other costs with a margin after materials of 50%.

I am guessing that Pandora has discovered that, in a world full of pirates getting content for nothing, not enough consumers are willing to listen to ads to get their service.

The other thing is that Pandora isn’t available outside of the US, but with a 50% payout rate, they should have no problem signing new licensing agreements for the rest of the world. My guess is the real issue of profitability of Pandora has absolutely nothing to do with the licensing agreements, and more to do with the costs of operating the business.

Licensing is a handy scapegoat that people like Mike can latch onto, hiding the real issues of the business.

Overcast (profile) says:

Seriously – WHO busy music without hearing it first?

Ok, I mean, maybe if you are a big fan of a group/artist you might, but then you wouldn’t be a ‘big fan’ had you not heard the music, for free, somewhere first.

Sure, maybe the CD’s I buy are often used, but I buy new also. Pandora is this old man’s gateway to new music. I’ve bought more music in the last 90 days than the last 7 years; thanks to PandoraOne.

Beech says:

Pandora partners

I’ve always wondered why Pandora doesn’t just find non-label-affiliated acts willing to accept lower royalty rates in exchange for a priority spot in Pandoras algorithm.

An example:

-UMG artist collects 50% of Pandora’s ad revenue per play.

-Independent “Pandora Premium Partner” accepts 0-10% of the revenue.

Therefore, when Pandora is trying to decide what track to play next, the PPP is given more consideration than it normally would be. That way, the “popular” label acts still get played and paid, but smaller guys get a lot more exposure in exchange for their “cut”.

Sounds like nothing but a win-win to me.

JMT says:

Re: Re:

“Didn’t really think that one all the way through, did you Sparky?”

Sure I did, but I also dismissed that as irrelevant. My point was that both sides of the argument invent or redefine terms to describe the other side. Do you really think copyright infringement compares in any way to “an act of robbery or criminal violence at sea”?

PaulT (profile) says:

Re:

“Please tell me if I can vote for the ‘mafiaa’ party next election…”

You can vote for any of their cronies – democrat, republican or independent. Where’s the party that will retain the rights for ordinary people and tell these morons to actually offer what people want to pay for instead of enforcing a business model that stopped being viable over a decade ago?

PaulT (profile) says:

Paying out 50% of revenues should not equal no profits

“I am guessing”

I do love the fact that you attack Mike for making an educated, reasonable opinion with the information at hand, then admit that the “truth” you’re pushing is also pulled from your own nether regions.

“Wahhh!!! Pirates!!!” isn’t working any more, find a new song.

“Pandora’s real problem appears to be not enough clients,”

Where? They’re not allowed to expand their market, as you later admit.

“The other thing is that Pandora isn’t available outside of the US, but with a 50% payout rate, they should have no problem signing new licensing agreements for the rest of the world”

From the very same people who insisted on them not being available outside the US in the first place, no less. I wonder where the problem could lie?

“Licensing is a handy scapegoat”

Just as piracy is for you. One is a real problem, the other can be bypassed by… well, licencing content to legal providers at a reasonable rate and not forcing them to block 5/6th of the planet from using their service.

catullusrl says:

More FUD from Masnick

Pandora plays less than 1 minute of advertising per hour.
Terrestrial radio plays about 13 minutes per hour.
If you play less ads, your revenue is less. If you play less ads, you play more music so your costs are going to be higher. This explains why Pandora pays such a high percentage of its revenue in royalties. Maybe Pandora should play more ads rather than whine about “unfairness”.
I doubt even lower rates will save Pandora.It will just lower barriers to entry for internet radio and the big boys (Apple,Google,Microsoft) will jump in.

PaulT (profile) says:

Re: More FUD from Masnick

“Maybe Pandora should play more ads rather than whine about “unfairness”.”

Yes, because multiplying the number of ads you play will never backfired, and people who listen to it certainly don’t use the service because there’s too many ads on commercial radio!

Oh, and you seem to be missing the fundamental argument. This isn’t just about Pandora’s issues, but the fact that high royalty rates have pushed most of their competition out of the market. If Pandora are making them millions, why does it not make sense to adjust the royalty rates to both allow them to be profitable and encourage new players in the market?

“I doubt even lower rates will save Pandora.It will just lower barriers to entry for internet radio and the big boys (Apple,Google,Microsoft) will jump in.”

…and that would be a bad thing… why?

Anonymous Coward says:

Many players have already gotten out of the Internet radio business because they cannot afford the CRB rates, and an unknown number have never gotten into it for the same reason. The only reason Pandora can even afford to continue operating is that they’ve negotiated some deals that allow lower rates than the CRB. Mind you, these CRB rates are the same ones the MAFIAA says are too low and keep pushing to jack them up, up, up. They try to portray it as the artists deserving more money, but my bet is that they know damn well the real result is that no one will be able to afford the rates and it will drive all the Internet radio operators out of business, and the artists won’t be getting any money.

And why would they want to do this? Because they’re trying to preserve their gatekeeper role. Their objective is to keep music discovery in check so that a critical mass of the general public is mostly exposed to the blockbuster hits they’re trying to promote and turn in to multi-platinum best-sellers, which they were able to do in concert with broadcasters before you had things like filesharing, Internet radio, and online retailers that aren’t limited to keeping only a few thousand titles in stock, things that make it much to easy for consumers to discover and purchase music they enjoy from backlists, obscure genres, and lesser-known artists. When too many consumers are spreading out their music spending among these CDs instead of the ones the record companies want to be in their faces, they see that as a bad thing.

Add Your Comment

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *

Have a Techdirt Account? Sign in now. Want one? Register here

Comment Options:

Make this the or (get credits or sign in to see balance) what's this?

What's this?

Techdirt community members with Techdirt Credits can spotlight a comment as either the "First Word" or "Last Word" on a particular comment thread. Credits can be purchased at the Techdirt Insider Shop »

Follow Techdirt

Techdirt Daily Newsletter

Ctrl-Alt-Speech

A weekly news podcast from
Mike Masnick & Ben Whitelaw

Subscribe now to Ctrl-Alt-Speech »
Techdirt Deals
Techdirt Insider Discord
The latest chatter on the Techdirt Insider Discord channel...
Loading...
Older Stuff
16:10 David Braben, Once Angry At Used Games, Now A New Business Model Embracer (33)
18:40 Artists Embracing, Rather Than Fighting, BitTorrent Seeing Amazing Results (10)
15:41 Vodo's Big Brother Bundle Shows How Bundles Can Improve The 'Pay What You Want' Concept (12)
23:06 Price Elasticity Can Work: Dropping Ebook Price To $1 Catapulted Year-Old Book Onto NYT Best Seller List (58)
16:03 The Good And Bad In Chaotic eBook Pricing (35)
05:18 Game Creator Finds That Knockoffs Can't Match His Awesome Game (33)
23:09 The Value Of Kickstarter: Connecting With Fans On-The-Fly (18)
10:02 Massive Growth In Independent Musicians & Singers Over The Past Decade (101)
23:54 Cool New Platform For Supporting Artists: Patreon, From Jack Conte (23)
05:46 A New Hope: How Going Free To Play Brought Redemption To Star Wars MMO (48)
11:16 There Is No Logic To The Argument That Zach Braff Shouldn't Use Kickstarter (105)
06:00 When Startups Need More Lawyers Than Employees, The Patent System Isn't Working (55)
03:14 Hitchhiker's Fan-Site Started By Douglas Adams Shows Why Authors Shouldn't Panic Over Derivative Works (27)
09:21 Patents As Weapons: How 1-800-CONTACTS Is Using The Patent System To Kill An Innovative Startup (54)
07:19 How EA's 'Silent Treatment' Pushed The SimCity Story Into The Background (55)
13:30 Deftones Guitarist: People Who Download Our Music Are Fans, They're Welcome To Do So (29)
13:10 Macklemore Explains Why Not Being On A Label Helped Him Succeed (29)
03:45 Successful Self-Published Ebook Authors Sells Print & Movie Rights For $1 Million, But Keeps Digital Rights To Himself (43)
11:53 Musician Alex Day Explains How He Beat Justin Timberlake In The Charts Basically Just Via YouTube (52)
00:09 Publishers Show Yet Again How To Make Money By Reducing The Price To Zero (42)
20:13 Flattr Makes It Easier Than Ever To Support Content Creators Just By Favoriting Tweets (61)
16:03 Case Study: Band Embraces Grooveshark And Catapults Its Career (21)
19:39 Amanda Palmer On The True Nature Of Connecting With Fans: It's About Trust (131)
16:03 Kickstarter-Funded Movie Wins Oscar For Best Documentary (89)
13:41 It's Fine For The Rich & Famous To Use Kickstarter; Bjork's Project Failed Because It Was Lame (20)
17:34 Connecting With Fans In Unique Ways: Band Sets Up Treasure Hunt To Find Fan-Submitted Sounds In New Album (10)
07:27 Just As Many Musicians Say File Sharing Helps Them As Those Who Say It Hurts (131)
20:00 Skateboard Legend Stacy Peralta Demonstrates His Latest Trick: Cashing In By Going Direct-To-Fan (13)
23:58 Wallet Maker Shows Everyone How To Make Their Own Awesome Wallet (16)
11:27 $274 Million Raised Via Kickstarter In 2012 (8)
More arrow