Florida Man Governor Wastes More Florida Taxpayer Money Appealing Ruling About His Unconstitutional Social Media Law

from the fiscal-conservative? dept

Last month, a federal judge easily declared Florida's social media law (complete with its Disney-inspired theme park exemption) as unconstitutional. It wasn't a hard call. Florida had tossed out a bunch of wacky arguments and the judge smacked down each and every one of them. He even pointed out that if you didn't use strict scrutiny (as you must) to analyze whether the law violated the 1st Amendment, it would still be unconstitutional.

But, of course, as we discussed with Florida legislator Anna Eskamani last week, this was never about anything more than trying to kick up yet another culture war. So it should come as little surprise that Florida has now officially moved to appeal the district court ruling. This will shock no one, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't be disappointed. This will be yet more of a waste of Florida taxpayer money on a frivolous legal battle in a state that has some pretty significant and real problems at the moment.

Hopefully, the 11th Circuit makes quick work of this. The district court judge, Robert Hinkle, of course, expected all of this, and much of his ruling seems drafted to convince judges on the 11th Circuit (he more or less said as much in the hearing before his ruling). But, these days, you still do need to worry that some confused judge will suddenly get infatuated with a dumb idea, and make a total mess of things. Even though to basically every expert this law is obviously unconstitutional, no one should breathe easy until after the courts have thoroughly stomped on its dead corpse and made that abundantly clear.

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Filed Under: 1st amendment, florida, ron desantis, section 230, social media, social media law, strict scrutiny


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  • icon
    Nathan F (profile), 13 Jul 2021 @ 1:45pm

    I actually do want this to get appealed all the way to the SCOTUS. That way when it gets shut down 8-1 (Clarence Thomes is being dumb right now) maybe other states will stop trying to pass such blatantly stupid and unconstitutional laws.

    You will note of course that I am not holding my breath in anticipation.

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • icon
      Thad (profile), 13 Jul 2021 @ 2:00pm

      Re:

      There's no way SCOTUS takes this.

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

      • icon
        Stephen T. Stone (profile), 13 Jul 2021 @ 2:12pm

        I’ll believe that when it refuses to take the case. Until then: There’s always a chance, no matter how small.

        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

        • icon
          Thad (profile), 13 Jul 2021 @ 2:36pm

          Re:

          I'm not really interested in debating whether the chances are zero or merely near-zero. We've got a Supreme Court that has never once ruled in favor of restricting a corporation's First Amendment rights and a performative, poorly-written, plainly unconstitutional piece of legislation that immediately got hit with a preliminary injunction. There's no controversy here, no fresh legal question, no dispute among the circuits. This is going nowhere, no matter how much Thomas complains about section 230.

          I'll believe otherwise when SCOTUS takes the case.

          reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

        • identicon
          Pixelation, 13 Jul 2021 @ 6:22pm

          Re:

          I had a conversation with a federal judge a few years back. He has a friend who is on the SCOTUS. He said the job of SCOTUS (mostly) is not simply to take cases to set precedent, it's to take cases where there is disagreement between the lower courts. Unless there are contradictory rulings from the lower court, most likely it's not going to happen.

          reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • icon
      ladyattis (profile), 14 Jul 2021 @ 9:34am

      I suspect they'll go the Jason Fyk route and try to apply the 5th Amendment to their appeals next which I know sounds silly but that's the latest (not so greatest) bad legal takes going on with Section 230 lol

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • icon
      nasch (profile), 15 Jul 2021 @ 8:29am

      Re:

      maybe other states will stop trying to pass such blatantly stupid and unconstitutional laws.

      Since the purpose is not to enact law but to stir up the voter base, a Supreme Court decision will have little to no effect on these bills being drafted.

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

      • icon
        PaulT (profile), 15 Jul 2021 @ 6:17pm

        Re: Re:

        Yep. I've mentioned this before but it's clear that these things are not intended to pass any kind of long-term credibility test. They're there to keep the Republican base engaged and angry enough to vote in mid-term elections where others are traditionally less engaged and more complacent when things are going well, which they should be after the year of competent administration that will be in evidence by then.

        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • identicon
      Anonymous Coward, 20 Jul 2021 @ 12:38pm

      Re:

      Yeah, Natalie… Clarence ‘Thomes’ is the ‘dumb’ one.

      Ha!

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 13 Jul 2021 @ 1:49pm

    We make the law, therefore we can make people listen to us.

    Florida Governor.

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • icon
    Stephen T. Stone (profile), 13 Jul 2021 @ 1:52pm

    Alternate headline:

    DeSantis Tries to Route Around the First Amendment in Preparation for 2024 Campaign

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • icon
    That One Guy (profile), 13 Jul 2021 @ 2:05pm

    'Give us more money to protect your to be assholes!'

    The entire thing was a publicity stunt/fundraiser from the start so of course they're going to appeal, they need to keep the persecution complex/fetish fires stoked so that people will keep listening to them and giving them money and pretending that the only reason the law got shot down the first time is because the super-liberal commie judge had it out for them plays right into that.

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • icon
      That One Guy (profile), 13 Jul 2021 @ 2:08pm

      Re: 'Give us more money to protect your to be assholes!'

      *protect your right to be assholes

      Freakin' writer's blindness...

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

      • identicon
        Anonymous Coward, 13 Jul 2021 @ 3:20pm

        Re: Re: 'Give us more money to protect your to be assholes!'

        Hey don't sweat. Everyone makes a from time to. It's called being a being. I can't count times I've screwed online. Just a natural cost ilving.

        Everyone screws sometimes. Again, don't it.

        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

      • identicon
        Anonymous Coward, 13 Jul 2021 @ 3:31pm

        Re: Re: 'Give us more money to protect your to be assholes!'

        Could have just been missing an hyphen, "to-be", as in "future".

        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • icon
      PaulT (profile), 13 Jul 2021 @ 11:18pm

      Re: 'Give us more money to protect your to be assholes!'

      "they need to keep the persecution complex/fetish fires stoked so that people will keep listening to them and giving them money"

      Locally, yes. Nationally, it's to keep the talking heads on the brainwash networks talking about how they're under attack so that the base will be motivated to vote in midterms, while others might become complacent now that the actual immediate dangers of Trump and the pandemic have taken a back seat.

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • icon
    Bloof (profile), 13 Jul 2021 @ 2:17pm

    There's no money for government services in red states, spending money on helping the poorl the sick and the needy to get back on their feet is wasteful, but there'll always be money available for fighting to prevent republican feelings getting hurt.

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • icon
      That One Guy (profile), 13 Jul 2021 @ 2:43pm

      Re:

      Saving and helping people's lives? Meh, the slackers can take care of themselves, if life's tough then that's their problem to deal with.

      Protecting feelings that might be hurt from people being told that others don't want them around due to how they act? All hands to battlestations, there's a war to be won and no cost is too high!

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it
      icon
      Cynebald (profile), 14 Jul 2021 @ 6:06pm

      Re:

      The public recreational facilities and parks in my family’s Red state home are far superior then my blue states. As is their job training for youth, and dealing with homelessness and drug addiction, the difference is they don’t waste money.

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • icon
    That Anonymous Coward (profile), 13 Jul 2021 @ 2:32pm

    Something something more punishments for lawyers who bring these bullshit cases.
    Its clear its not constitutional even the dimmest bulbs can see that and these idiots are spending tax payer money on it.
    There needs to be real punishments to stop the lawyers filing culture war stupidity.

    For far to long lawyers have gotten a pass on doing things that reflect poorly on what ever school graduated them & what ever bar passed them. We are in a situation where a lawyer said what she filed in court was all BS so she can't be sued by the company she lied about. This can't be allowed, ever.

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • icon
      CSMcDonald (profile), 14 Jul 2021 @ 10:25am

      Re:

      That would be the state senators who created this shit bill and the Governor for signing it.

      I'd love if there was any actual repercussions but it's my taxes paying for free advertising for him in re-election next year by trumpeting his standing up for the unfairly blocked nutcases.

      He's a very smart and loathsome toad our governor is.

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 13 Jul 2021 @ 3:24pm

    Checks and balances.

    In principle, I think they're a good idea. But not when (less than) half the electorate is willfully blind to obvious dishonesty and is determined to have their way no matter how many vote against it. When one side's reaction to defeat is "we didn't lose, you cheated", what can anyone do?

    People laugh at me if I mention it, but I really do fear that another civil war is coming in the US. Or a bloody coup or insurrection that will be almost as bad.

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • identicon
      Anonymous Coward, 13 Jul 2021 @ 3:32pm

      Re: Checks and balances.

      The Empire is in decline anyway. Something will happen, eventually.

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • icon
      That One Guy (profile), 13 Jul 2021 @ 3:47pm

      Re: Checks and balances.

      Given there's already been one failed insurrection and the response by the party in question has been 'pretend it didn't happen, blame anyone but those responsible and oh yeah, keep repeating the same lie that caused the failed insurrection and pandering to the people who believed it' I'd say that your fears of worse to come are far more realistic than they should be.

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it
    icon
    Chozen (profile), 13 Jul 2021 @ 3:35pm

    I Invented the Keyboard Necktie!!!!

    Why wouldn't you appeal a Hinkle decision. The Hinkle is a legal moron. I couldn't have been happier with his decision. Hinkle was never going to agree with the state. The guy is in a word nuts.

    Here is the thing Mike. You were so obsessed with winning you forgot that you needed a competent judge to write a competent decision that would be hard to overturn. Instead Hinkle threw a hanging curveball.

    When you turn around and call a poorly written decision a smackdown it just shows how you are still cashing in on your 15 minutes of fame which was what a decade and a half ago?

    We get it ... you invented the keyboard necktie ... oh sorry wrong person ... you coined the term Streisand Effect. Dude that was a long time ago.

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • icon
      AC Unknown (profile), 13 Jul 2021 @ 4:04pm

      Re: I Invented the Keyboard Necktie!!!!

      You're speaking gibberish. Please seek help.

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

      • This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it
        icon
        Chozen (profile), 13 Jul 2021 @ 4:28pm

        Re: Re: I Invented the Keyboard Necktie!!!!

        Ah I suggest you read about your savior Judge Hinkle. While Mike is gushing over this decision Judge Hinkle made almost the exact same arguments in Jones et al v. DeSantis. Hinkle's go to is 'I can find no legitimate governmental interests' only to get @#%% slapped by the 11th circuit.

        Now he is making the exact same stupid arguments to the same appeals court. Why do you think its going to be an different?

        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

        • icon
          Stephen T. Stone (profile), 14 Jul 2021 @ 5:55pm

          Why do you think its going to be an different?

          What part of the ruling makes you think his will be overturned? Be specific.

          reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

        • identicon
          Anonymous Coward, 14 Jul 2021 @ 8:15pm

          Re: Re: Re: I Invented the Keyboard Necktie!!!!

          Well that was at least coherent. You're still pants on head stupid, but at least we can parse it this time.

          reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • icon
      Toom1275 (profile), 13 Jul 2021 @ 5:03pm

      Re: I Invented the Keyboard Necktie!!!!

      The Hinkle is a legal moron.

      Never an accusatiom by Chozen that isn't projection.

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • icon
      Samuel Abram (profile), 13 Jul 2021 @ 5:10pm

      Re: I Invented the Keyboard Necktie!!!!

      it just shows how you are still cashing in on your 15 minutes of fame which was what a decade and a half ago?

      That ignores three things:

      1. That Mike Masnick doesn't copyright his work, meaning that everybody else is free to "cash in" on his work,
      2. That Mike Masnick did a shitload of other influential stuff, such as influencing Jack Fucking Dorsey with his "Protocols, Not Platforms" paper for the Knight First Amendment Institute, and
      3. That Disney has been cashing on a cartoon mouse for over 90 years so what difference does it make that Mike Masnick is notable for stuff he does and doesn't even assume monopolies over?

      If only you thought things through…

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

      • icon
        Chozen (profile), 20 Jul 2021 @ 12:55pm

        Re: Re: I Invented the Keyboard Necktie!!!!

        "If only you thought things through…"

        I did very much so. Mike seems to appeal to sycophants. He doesn't allow people to post who disagree with him. He polices his blog like a god damn gestapo. I believe his authoritarian attitude is why he is a relative failure to his other peers. The hallmark of the late Gen-X early millennials thought leaders is a wide open dialogue.

        Mike is an authoritarian who doesn't want to entertain the concept that people actually disagree with him.

        That is why he was once a shining star and today is considered a flash in the pan.

        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

        • icon
          Toom1275 (profile), 21 Jul 2021 @ 7:58pm

          Re: Re: Re: I Invented the Keyboard Necktie!!!!

          [Projects facts not in evidence]

          reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

        • icon
          nasch (profile), 21 Jul 2021 @ 8:03pm

          Re: Re: Re: I Invented the Keyboard Necktie!!!!

          He doesn't allow people to post who disagree with him.

          How does one describe this level of oblivious irony?

          reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

          • icon
            Lostinlodos (profile), 21 Jul 2021 @ 8:24pm

            Re: Re: Re: Re: I Invented the Keyboard Necktie!!!!

            Or the fact that I’m here.
            But I don’t go out of my way to be an arse.

            You’re kind of off base if you think Mr M is blocking people who disagree. I clearly disagree a third of the time or more.

            I hate to break it out this way, but you’re doing the same thing the left does. You need to approach things within their bubble of understanding.
            Burst it from the inside.

            reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

          • icon
            Chozen (profile), 21 Jul 2021 @ 9:09pm

            Re: Re: Re: Re: I Invented the Keyboard Necktie!!!!

            Its a well known and understood irony with "L"ibertarians. They claim to be libertarians but they try to run their own world as authoritarians. Mike is a "L"ibertarian who in his own life acts as an authoritarian. Sadly this isn't uncommon.

            We can get into a big psychological debate about this. Libertarianism is a very good excuse for people who are natural authoritarians to avoid accountability. Many manipulative coping mechanisms can be classified as guilt avoidance. An authoritarian adopting libertarianism is actually a very effective guilt avoidance mechanism.

            'I do what I want!'

            reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

            • icon
              Lostinlodos (profile), 21 Jul 2021 @ 9:46pm

              Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: I Invented the Keyboard Necktie!!!!

              Oh, now don’t go slandering me… I’m a libertarian.
              You and I will likely differ on some aspects, just like I think the progressives would do the world a favour by walking off a very short pier over alligator infested waters.

              But calling anyone in the progressive left libertarian is extremely offensive to real libertarians.
              Mike is a much a libertarian as tonight’s cod was a chicken.

              reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

              • icon
                Chozen (profile), 22 Jul 2021 @ 12:15pm

                Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: I Invented the Keyboard Necktie!!!!

                I make a big difference between a libertarian and a capital L "L"ibertarian. "L"ibertarians are authoritarian religious zealots who adopt libertarian principles to avoid accountability.

                reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • icon
      Stephen T. Stone (profile), 13 Jul 2021 @ 5:27pm

      Should I prepare your crow now, or do you want me to wait until after the appeals courts smack down this inane attempt at circumventing the First Amendment?

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

      • icon
        That One Guy (profile), 13 Jul 2021 @ 5:44pm

        Re:

        As eating crow requires one to be honest enough to admit to being wrong, and they most certainly are not, I'd save yourself the effort.

        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

      • icon
        Scary Devil Monastery (profile), 14 Jul 2021 @ 3:10am

        Re:

        "Should I prepare your crow now"

        It'll be like Prenda all over; Baghdad Bob will go utterly nuts waxing eloquently in defense of the doomed cause then lose his shit complete hysterics when it turns out that factual reality would not change itself to accommodate the drug-addled visions inside his head.

        Then he'll bury his current nickname in the flaming wreckage like a sacrificial dog meant to hex and curse his detractors and a few threads later on a brand new nick will arise to "spontaneously" shit all over the thread. In the apparent belief that changing the name while still vomiting the same distinctive bullshit will make everyone miraculously believe him.

        Even the dumbest of motherfuckers should have realized they're making no headway by now.

        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • identicon
      Anonymous Coward, 13 Jul 2021 @ 9:33pm

      Re: smells like failure

      'it just shows how you are still cashing in on your 15 minutes of fame which was what a decade and a half ago"

      I can smell the jealousy from over here.

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • identicon
      Anonymous Coward, 14 Jul 2021 @ 3:46am

      Re: I Invented the Keyboard Necktie!!!!

      Jealous much?

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • icon
    Blake C. Stacey (profile), 13 Jul 2021 @ 4:29pm

    (sigh)

    DeSantis doesn't have an incentive to stop, does he? The worst case, for him, is that he gets advertising and a way to raise more campaign cash off the QAnon base. Florida's ruling party will ride this as long as they can --- and with a judiciary more bonkers than we've ever seen.

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • identicon
      Anonymous Coward, 14 Jul 2021 @ 3:48am

      Re:

      Cause one thing you can be absolutely sure about is that the GOP voters are too dumb to realize it's their money while whining about democrat spending.

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • icon
      Tanner Andrews (profile), 17 Jul 2021 @ 3:30pm

      Re:

      This might well be a symptom of a one-party state. There are three branches of government, all run by the same party. You also have a bunch of agencies, whose heads are all appointed by the same party.

      For similar one-party result, look another 90 miles south.

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • icon
    ECA (profile), 13 Jul 2021 @ 4:56pm

    Anyone notice?

    That when ASKED why the law should be created.
    NO One responsible has any good reason to justify Even bringing it up?

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 13 Jul 2021 @ 9:39pm

    Has anyone seen my Koby?

    Missing; presumably neckbeaded, answers to the name of Koby, has a bit of a humiliation fetish, hates the First Amendment, very slow learner.

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 14 Jul 2021 @ 8:09am

    aka Disney Censorship Bill

    I'd love to hear the audio on they try to explain the part about only Disney and other theme parks being allowed to censor(moderate) user posted content

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • icon
      CSMcDonald (profile), 14 Jul 2021 @ 10:31am

      Re: aka Disney Censorship Bill

      I can't find the video now, one of our democratic state senators posted it a couple of weeks ago when she asked the sponsor of that part why and got a really nonsensical and illogical reply about Disney+ which doesn't even host any user generated content.

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • icon
      That One Guy (profile), 14 Jul 2021 @ 10:35am

      Re: aka Disney Censorship Bill

      No need to settle for audio when there's video of it, third link in this article leads to a previous article which has a video covering just that at the bottom, and it's just as stupid as you can imagine.

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 14 Jul 2021 @ 5:39pm

    He wouldn't be doing this if he had to pay out of his own pocket! So much better to continue Grandstanding when someone else is paying the bill! With luck, people will see what a fuck up he is at the next election!

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • icon
    Lostinlodos (profile), 15 Jul 2021 @ 2:00pm

    On to the next stop:

    Eventually this will make it to SCOTUS, who will be heavily pressed to review this. Their ruling will put an end to 230 debate.
    Then we can all move on.

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • icon
      nasch (profile), 15 Jul 2021 @ 2:18pm

      Re: On to the next stop:

      Eventually this will make it to SCOTUS, who will be heavily pressed to review this.

      There is little if any meaningful pressure anyone can put on the Supreme Court to review a case, or to do or not do anything. By design.

      Their ruling will put an end to 230 debate.

      Because the debate is so firmly rooted in fact and law? lol

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

      • icon
        Lostinlodos (profile), 15 Jul 2021 @ 2:41pm

        Re: Re: On to the next stop:

        Only point is 230 debate will continue on until it is put to rest forever.
        A vote against this law will be the final nail.
        At the least, for now.

        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

        • icon
          nasch (profile), 15 Jul 2021 @ 2:51pm

          Re: Re: Re: On to the next stop:

          A vote against this law will be the final nail.

          My point is that most arguments against section 230 are based in a complete misunderstanding of either section 230, the first amendment, private property rights, or some combination thereof. So what difference would a Supreme Court decision make? People will just misunderstand that, in addition to everything else.

          reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

          • This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it
            icon
            Lostinlodos (profile), 15 Jul 2021 @ 3:39pm

            Re: Re: Re: Re: On to the next stop:

            Because a ruling is a ruling. The bill is, or is not constitutional.
            From the point on after the SCOTUS ruling, bills will be shot down and unappealable.

            reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

            • icon
              nasch (profile), 15 Jul 2021 @ 3:55pm

              Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: On to the next stop:

              From the point on after the SCOTUS ruling, bills will be shot down and unappealable.

              Incorrect. Even if this is ruled against by the Supreme Court, a legislature could enact a similar law, which would be challenged in court, and presumably found unconstitutional, and then the state could decide to appeal it to a higher level.

              So a Supreme Court decision will make this particular law dead and buried, but it will not:

              • prevent any similar bills from being passed in the future
              • prevent court decisions involving such bills from being appealed
              • stop anyone from debating section 230

              reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

              • icon
                Lostinlodos (profile), 15 Jul 2021 @ 4:23pm

                Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: On to the next stop:

                On the second bullet it would though. An appeals court would simply refuse to hear the case beyond submission.

                Such as ‘we find that the lower court’s’ dismissal, ruling, etc is sound.

                For one thing a court has no requirement to hear a case if the case law dictates the ruling based on the filing.
                Such dismissal is usually done without prejudice so as to allow for an amended case, but if you argue what the SC says is constitutional a judge need not hear it.
                There’s always lawyers happy to get paid, and being stupid cases. But once the SC rules 230 laws will become just another RvW.

                Discuss all you want. The law is the law.

                reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

                • icon
                  nasch (profile), 15 Jul 2021 @ 6:31pm

                  Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: On to the next stop:

                  Yes, the appeal can be denied immediately, but it cannot be prevented (AFAIK).

                  reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

                  • This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it
                    icon
                    Lostinlodos (profile), 15 Jul 2021 @ 6:47pm

                    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: On to the next stop:

                    If the request for appeal is denied it more or less denies the appeal.

                    Again, the fastest way to kill this movement is a Sac ruling.
                    Even judge shopping won’t get you more than a single action.

                    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • icon
      PaulT (profile), 15 Jul 2021 @ 6:18pm

      Re: On to the next stop:

      "Then we can all move on."

      If only...

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

      • identicon
        Anonymous Coward, 15 Jul 2021 @ 8:56pm

        Re: Re: On to the next stop:

        Lodos? Nah, we can expect him to be here like every other Trump footprint kisser who hasn't learned yet.

        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

        • icon
          Lostinlodos (profile), 17 Jul 2021 @ 4:03pm

          Re: Re: Re: On to the next stop:

          Uh, there’s a difference between being a foot licker and supporting certain positions we consider more important than than others.

          For a collective to survive the needs of the many outweighs the needs of the few.

          reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

          • icon
            Scary Devil Monastery (profile), 19 Jul 2021 @ 3:28am

            Re: Re: Re: Re: On to the next stop:

            "... there’s a difference between being a foot licker and supporting certain positions we consider more important than than others. .."

            "“Historians have a word for Germans who joined the Nazi party, not because they hated Jews, but out of a hope for restored patriotism, or a sense of economic anxiety, or a hope to preserve their religious values, or dislike of their opponents, or raw political opportunism, or convenience, or ignorance, or greed.
            That word is "Nazi." Nobody cares about their motives anymore.” "

            • A.R. Moxon

            When Trump's adherence and sympathies for white supremacy became clear it became utterly irrelevant what other positions he had. Hitler created the concept of the modern highway, the volkswagen car, measurably improved the lives of many, and liked dogs; The only thing which mattered in the end was that he was a warmongering antisemite.

            When you decided to vote for Trump second time around it doesn't matter if he held the Cure for Cancer in his hands - because at that point you decided that you were OK with an open white supremacist currying favor with the Charlottesville neo-nazis.

            "For a collective to survive the needs of the many outweighs the needs of the few."

            Pray tell whose needs were best served by a self-serving grifter and fraud to come into power to royally screw shit up for the nations as a whole in ways which are still counted?

            According to statistics abroad the US ought to have around 100k dead or less - if government had done nothing. You're pushing past 600k instead.

            The US has lost more or less all political sway in the ME. Meaning from now on you'll have to bribe the saudis to get anything done.

            Russia and China have, much courtesy of 45, become near-peers years ahead of schedule. Something which might have been mitigated if Trump hadn't given comrade Putin and Emperor Xi everything they wished for.

            The thinking man would, at this point, realize they'd hitched their wagon to a malicious con man from the start. Knowing or not what you ended up as was a foot licker. The rest was you being gullible.

            Doubling down on that only sends the message that you are still in denial. Which will be dangerous in 2024 when the GOP will present strongman candidates who also include everything you want to hear in their policy as window dressing but may not be quite as blunt or inept as Trump.

            Unless those "certain positions" you refer to consist of racism, fearmongering and scapegoating it'll be a safe bet those positions were just garnish on top of the steaming turd actually served.

            reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

            • icon
              Lostinlodos (profile), 19 Jul 2021 @ 2:53pm

              Re: Elections and history

              What the A.R. Moxon types fail to grasp is the need to not ignore the cause and remember only the result. People who ignore the cause tend to repeat it.
              Be it Germany in 1936 or the US today.

              “ OK with an open white supremacist currying favor with the Charlottesville neo-nazis.”
              Fake news.

              “ According to statistics abroad the US ought to have around 100k dead or less - if government had done nothing”
              The vast majority of the country lives in small densely populated tribes, know as cities.
              When half your population is in tight spaces you end up like the US, China, India…

              “ US has lost more or less all political sway in the ME.”
              Yet… we made great advances there as well. Creating common goal ties between Israeli, a nuclear power, and Muslim countries. To protect against the most egregious threat to the world. Iran.
              Outside of that the various issues are NOT our problem and we need to just leave them alone.

              China’s rise has nothing to do with Trump, who stifled it, and the every thing to do with 20 years of lopsided trade.

              Russia was a strategic partner for 3 decades. The Dems and their pro China crap hampered it. The ‘Russia russia Russia’ bullshite from 15-today has made reconciliation difficult. I fear the Biden puppet masters will make it permanently impossible. The flip flop of China Russia China Russia has made to power former enemies become common backers of each other out of desperation.

              “ Doubling down on that only sends the message that you are still in denial.”
              Let’s cover two primary issues and get them out of the way permanently.
              In 15 the Dems had good ideas and bad ideas.
              I would have voted for Sanders. The party as a whole is not socialist and would have balanced his goals against reality.
              But the Clinton machine made sure that wasn’t an option.

              The Republicans offered entrenched war mongers and a business man who wanted to cut globalisation.
              I would have voted for sanders.

              My concern with Clinton is no secret. A tax shelter billionaire elitist with a hard on for genocide. A “tax the rich” driver who also supported every tax loophole that would guarantee the rich never paid for her programs. Putting the burden on the upper middle class.
              A green new deal globalist who wanted to stifle American energy with zero repercussions for the world’s dirtiest countries.
              Who supported a billion dollar ransom to a terrorist country.
              I don’t really care what your opinions are, that’s mine.

              Or Trump?
              I chose trump.

              2020: we see a man that every non-partisan neurologist, psychiatrist, and psychologist points out has dementia.
              Who parrots most, but not all, of the 2016 platform. Just the worst parts.

              Or Trump.
              Walking into it knowing Biden wasn’t in charge, it was who was?!
              And not knowing what would be the result, a globalisation effort or a green socialism, I chose what I knew. The good and the bad of it.

              There’s no denying the extreme wings of both parties have racists. Be it white or black.
              But few hold power in the pen.

              I never asked liberals or conservatives to agree with me. I didn’t expect you would.
              I you want to throw me into some other class that’s your own fallacy. It doesn’t really harm me, ultimately. It is also a clear reason the Democrat party is fractured and fighting itself right now.
              If you can’t compromise in your own party, you’re dead on arrival in a full vote.

              I stuck with the daemon I know, and not the one I didn’t. Because nobody knew should would pull Biden’s strings. “What am I signing”.
              We still don’t. But it appears to be inconsistent.
              Good for you, you got a human rubber stamp machine.

              reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

              • icon
                Scary Devil Monastery (profile), 20 Jul 2021 @ 7:17am

                Re: Re: Elections and history

                "Fake news."

                Unless you're making the claim that Trump, on camera couldn't bring himself to openly condemn white supremacy - despite knowing what a horrible look that was - it remains that Trump placed liberal humanitarians on the same level as marchers waving the nazi odal and swastika and dressed as KKK in Charlottesville.
                I guess none so blind as they refuse to see, eh? Dear Leader has always been racist and you don't even have to dig very deep in his career to find clear proof from his own mouth.

                "The vast majority of the country lives in small densely populated tribes, know as cities.
                When half your population is in tight spaces you end up like the US, China, India… "

                Stop. You really think the expert epidemiologists making calls about the pandemic don't know what a city is?
                My point stands. You should have had 100k dead or so, if the government had been sitting on its god damn hands. Instead you have 600k dead, 50% more than you lost in WW2, and half a mill of those dead fall squarely on 45 and his cadre of witch doctors.

                "Yet… we made great advances there as well. Creating common goal ties between Israeli, a nuclear power, and Muslim countries."

                You didn't, really. I advise adding Haaretz to your professed list of news sources for some more low-down. Israel is, as before, not friends with anyone in the ME.

                "To protect against the most egregious threat to the world. Iran. "

                That you can say this with a straight face means you are ignorant or deluded. Iran is, if not a non-entity in the ME, then certainly very much not a global problem.
                The biggest problem globally from the ME would be Saudi Arabia which has been exporting the most extremist interpretation of Islam for decades and has been the root of ME terror since the PLO gave up on it. Iran won't send suicide bombers to western cities, Al-Quaeda remnants and ISIS/Daesch will, as will their successors.
                Iran is simply a convenient scapegoat to blame for all ills given that attacking the saudis is not on, with them owning too damn much influence over US industry.

                "Outside of that the various issues are NOT our problem and we need to just leave them alone. "

                ...and when you betrayed the Kurds you lost all intel around ME hotspots and when you withdrew from Afghanistan you gave that country right back to the Taliban. Meaning ten years from now on it's your problem. Again.
                The irony here is that you engineered the whole chain of events leading to Afghanistan and SA being major problems for you that you are now unable to leave painlessly.

                "China’s rise has nothing to do with Trump, who stifled it, and the every thing to do with 20 years of lopsided trade. "

                I advise you read up on it again. China's been known as an unfair competitor for a long time and even back in Obama's presidency they talked about how to stem the tide of deficits. Trump did that moronic thing no one was dumb enough to do; he went to a trade war with a nation which was prepared for one, from a nation which most decidedly wasn't.
                His "Good and easy to win" trade war ended with him crawling up to Emperor Xi and begging for a deal rawer by far for the US than what you guys had before that trade war. But he waved it around and claimed it was a solid win - and you idiots believed him.
                I suggest googling: "More pain than gain: How the US-China trade war hurt America"

                "I chose trump."

                Who turned out to be worse by far than even the Qanon dreams of Clinton's Pizza Parlor Cannibal Cult would have been. Half a million needlessly dead americans and more to follow. An economy losing every advantage Obama left it with. A reputation abroad ensuring the US won't be taken seriously for decades. Meaning the US ability to project soft power is now gone.
                A thinking man would, by now, finish your sentence above with "...and boy was I wrong about that".

                "2020: we see a man that every non-partisan neurologist, psychiatrist, and psychologist points out has dementia..."

                ...which isn't ideal and Biden is probably below even Clinton on my list of mediocrity. Yet he's still better than Trump because he isn't actively harmful. And unlike Trump he has the backing of a staff which consists of actual experts.

                "I would have voted for sanders."

                An old idealist still going strong with a rep for having been incorruptible for all of his 50 years+ worth of career? With that merit it's rather irrelevant what his actual policies are - if he has the expert staff he needs to carry them through. At least he did end up in charge of the budget so there is that.

                "There’s no denying the extreme wings of both parties have racists. Be it white or black."

                There's also no denying that one of those parties holds a cesspool the size of NY, the other party a puddle the size of a single late-night incontinent drunk. I'm sure you could find black racists around. But they are as irrelevant a threat compared to white supremacy as a single garden-variety pissant compared to a full blown amazon soldier ant swarm.

                "I you want to throw me into some other class that’s your own fallacy."

                It really isn't. Most of the people who voted for Hitler were quite quick to point out they weren't hating on the jews or slavs, or bought into the global conspiracy thing or the lebensraum idiocy. They bought into what they thought was the only plan on offer giving Germany an industry and international competitiveness again.
                Yet the results were clear; When you sit down to dine with the nazis, white supremacists and racists, that is the party you're giving your support and that is the party you must be counted with. There is no shade of gray here. No exculpation. Everyone who voted for Trump has their share of american blood on their hands - and in voting for him twice has doubled down on that.

                "I stuck with the daemon I know, and not the one I didn’t."

                And that's the problem since the demon you knew was far worse than even the worst Qanon nonsense could have dreamt up about the one you didn't.

                "Good for you, you got a human rubber stamp machine."

                Which isn't ideal or desirable by any means but if I were american I'd take it. Better than the wannabe Kim Jong-Un at whose feet lie half a million dead american civilians who didn't have to die and who brought Steve god damn Bannon into the white house for a spell.

                All I can hope is that a lot of Dear Leader's adherents keep doubling down on him because they dread the idea of their own consciences telling them what they contributed to...rather than them just being seriously lacking in human empathy.

                reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

                • icon
                  Lostinlodos (profile), 20 Jul 2021 @ 5:59pm

                  Re: Re: Re: Elections and history

                  “ Trump, on camera couldn't bring himself to openly condemn white supremacy”
                  Fake news.
                  “ Trump, Aug. 14, 2017: As I said on Saturday, we condemn in the strongest possible terms this egregious display of hatred, bigotry, and violence. It has no place in America.

                  And as I have said many times before: No matter the color of our skin, we all live under the same laws, we all salute the same great flag, and we are all made by the same almighty God. We must love each other, show affection for each other, and unite together in condemnation of hatred, bigotry, and violence. We must rediscover the bonds of love and loyalty that bring us together as Americans.

                  Racism is evil. And those who cause violence in its name are criminals and thugs, including the KKK, neo-Nazis, white supremacists, and other hate groups that are repugnant to everything we hold dear as Americans.”

                  “it remains that Trump placed liberal humanitarians on the same level as marchers waving the nazi odal and swastika and dressed as KKK in Charlottesville.”
                  No he didn’t. He pointed out that there were good peopling both sides. The he the Nazi fucks were not the only ones protesting to keep historic statues.

                  “ Stop. You really think the expert epidemiologists making calls about the pandemic don't know what a city is?”
                  And yet that’s where the death toll is. Democrat controlled cities. Cali, NY, Georgia, Illinois, …
                  Big cities.

                  “ That you can say this with a straight face means you are ignorant or deluded”
                  Saudi Arabia isn’t stupid enough to launch nukes at a neighbouring state.

                  “ right back to the Taliban”
                  Maybe. The same taliban we armed in the first place to fight the USSR. Which party was it that sent them weapons, cash, armaments? Oh, that’s right. The blues.

                  “ The irony here is that you engineered the whole chain of events leading to Afghanistan and SA being major problems for you that you are now unable to leave painlessly.”
                  No irony in it. Just plain stupidity to think it wouldn’t happen.
                  Again, I’ve long pointed out it was the Allied push post WWII to fight the Russian/USSR atheism that installed Muslim dictators across the Mid East.

                  “ China's been known as an unfair competitor for a long time and even back in Obama's”
                  Yes, that’s exactly what I said. The current mess started under Clinton and Bush Jr.

                  “ Clinton's Pizza Parlor Cannibal Cult ”?
                  Pizza gate? Lol.
                  I put no thought into that crap.
                  I stated my reasons against here, actually factual reasons. I don’t need conspiracy theories to hate her.

                  “ Biden”
                  I simply refuse to vote for the person hiding behind the curtain.

                  “ black racists”
                  See, your stuck on race. I’m not. Black power is a minimum concern.
                  There’s very few white suprematists, even fewer black ones.
                  It’s globalisation, open trade, porous borders, National disarmament, … etc.
                  Race has nothing to do with my vote.

                  “ When you sit down to dine with the nazis, white supremacists and racists, ”
                  See, that’s just it. The party doesn’t do that. I didn’t sit down with fuckturds. I sat down with Republicans. The few fuckturds sat down with us. And 99% of the party said sod off.

                  “ And that's the problem since the demon you knew was far worse than even the worst Qanon nonsense could have dreamt up about the one you didn't.”
                  The q shite never made it to my devices in any major way. I don’t use social look-at-me crap. I don’t watch talking head entertainment from FoxNews or MSNBCNN. I voted on facts.
                  And the facts said Trump was better for me than Clinton.
                  Then the facts said trump or the mystery person.

                  I have zero doubt that Trump did Bette than Clinton would have under covid. Give the total disaster in handling swine flu. A far less dangerous virus.
                  Any dead is too many dead.
                  But I’ll take 600K over 60mil.

                  reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]


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