YouTube Streamer Hit With Demonetization Over Copyright Claims To Numbers '36' And '50'
from the wut? dept
We’ve long had discussions about how wide open for abuse and error YouTube’s copyright and demonetization practices are. Between the hamfisted method by which the accused is treated as guilty from the get go, to the impossibility of doing large-scale policing like this in a way that’s even moderately good, to the avenue for abuse that all of this creates, the fact is that YouTube’s stance on copyright is a mess. The end result of all of this is that creators on YouTube operate in constant peril of having their accounts suspended or video revenues taken by others with the recourse for fraud and error being convoluted and lengthy. For a site that is in the business of content creation, that’s a real problem.
And it’s a problem that can get quite ridiculous, as evidenced by one recent streamer who had two videos demonetized over claims by a third party that she infringed its copyrights… on the numbers “36” and “50.”
did you guys know you can copyright the number 36 pic.twitter.com/dnja297R73
— Anne Munition (@AnneMunition) January 24, 2020
by the way, also got copyright claims for the number 50 lmao pic.twitter.com/MhWcMD9l8i
— Anne Munition (@AnneMunition) January 24, 2020
Now, if you’re wondering who in the world is claiming trademarks on these two random numbers, it appears to be a company in the YouTube content creation business as well. Why they think they own the copyright on those two numbers and can use them to siphon the income of innocent YouTube streamers is anybody’s guess.
The claim, made by media company Fullscreen, was simply over the number “36.” There wasn’t anything else to do with what media they were trying to protect, or any timestamps, just that the number “36” was not AnneMunition’s property.
Fullscreen describe themselves as a “social content company for talent and brands” on their company website. They are owned by Otter Media, a subsidiary of WarnerMedia, who doesn’t hold the license for The Witcher 3, or any trademarks related to the number “36.”
This is problematic for AnneMunition’s YouTube channel, because while claims are active, Fullscreen takes all monetization for the video. While the videos are over two years old, with both having very little views, they still leave a stain on her YouTube record.
Now, I fully expect that YouTube will get this corrected fairly quickly, as there is nearly zero chance that there is anything remotely valid about this copyright claim. But that really isn’t the point. For YouTube’s system and process to so clearly favor the accuser, particularly given how much error and abuse there is in all of this, is not sustainable. At some point, content creators will simply have had enough and go somewhere else. That might be far off on the horizon, but it’s going to come eventually if some kind of change isn’t made on YouTube’s part.
Filed Under: anne munition, copyright, numbers
Companies: fullscreen, twitch
Comments on “YouTube Streamer Hit With Demonetization Over Copyright Claims To Numbers '36' And '50'”
And here, in one story, lies the problem with automated copyright systems and the DMCA: Abuses run rampant and go unpunished while the victims of that abuse suffer the most consequences.
Re: The Only Way To Fix The System
The only way to get people to agree that the system needs fixing is by filing copyright complaints against everything. This is right out of Alinkskys rules for radicals.
Re: Re: The Only Way To Fix The System
Agreed. But care to bet whether the perjury clause of the DMCA being ‘unenforceable’ somehow manages to be enforced if someone files a false DMCA against a big corporation’s website or YouTube channel?
Today is the 24th......
….uh, and Ima claim copyright on "24", so, uh, pay me!!!
(smh)
Re: Today is the 24th......
I think Fox (now Disney) would like to have a ward with you about that number…
Re: Today is the 24th......
While you’re at it, try doing the same thing with the numbers 42 and 47.
Re: Today is the 24th......
You are thinking small…
I’m claiming copyright on “2020”, “2021”, “2022” and “2023”…
Over those four years I’ll rake in enough troll income to afford enough evil lawyers to successfully defend my claim to “42”… which as we all know is the answer to “life, the universe and everything”.
Re: Re: I'm claiming copyright on the number 2020
Too late. The International Olympic Committee has already claimed trademark on any phrase which utters the words "Tokyo" and "2020".
Re: Re: Re: I'm claiming copyright on the number 2020
Ahhhh, but they didn’t claim copyright, did they?
And the copyright maximalists will follow them and force use of a similar system. As without automation, the level of publishing that occurs on YouTube and other sites is not possible. Unless some teeth are added to DMCA and similar laws, or copyright is significantly weakened, this problem will continue.
Re: Re:
I’ve followed at least one content creator that hopped around from one site to another as each one went down and finally just gave up and went to YouTube. I think content creators by and large have decided they’re stuck with YouTube, at least for the time being.
Re: Re: Re:
I think the problem us the mindset that you can only have one provider at a time. Why not use YouTube but try gathering new users in other places at the same time? It requires more admin but means you’re not dependant on a single provider which is a bad idea in any field
Re: Re: Re: Re:
Often the problem is that the creator is a one man band, and need to devote their attention to content creation, and the to the fans giving them an income. Adding administration time, takes time away from the stuff that actually drives their income. Posting their videos to a back up site may not take that much time, but unless they also devote time to promoting that site along with their main site, it becomes little more than an online backup.
Re: Re: Re:2 Re:
Well it’s certainly not easy, but people make a choice. If they’ve chosen to depend on a single provider, the complaints that the single provider is bad for doing things they don’t like carry less weight.
Isn't it obvious?
36 is the ASCII code for "$". And 50 is for "2" since stealing once isn’t enough.
NOW to fix and sudit//
Now how about a company that Verifies CR, and who owns what..
Pay to be listed and pay to Read the list.
Re: NOW to fix and sudit//
How do you make that work at the rate that Videos are being uploaded to YouTube, which is more that 500 hours a minute, and given that most videos on YouTube are relatively short, that is of the order of 1500 videos a minute.
Re: NOW to fix and sudit//
"Pay to be listed and pay to Read the list."
So, the way to fix this is to add barriers to disincentivise small content creators?
Re: Re: NOW to fix and sudit//
Close, but we take time to Look up the claims..
So that those making the claims have to WAIT for the company to find the data..
It would also force the corps to List and show the CR, and who they have given permission to control the product.
It wouldnt be on every submission to YT, it would be as they get notices and we have to look up the Data on the CR.
Scamming YouTube creators in this way is more common
I’ve heard YouTube creators battling this problem. Scammers are using this to temporarily divert funds. And they get to keep all they got. YouTube doesn’t try to get the payments back. I would love to blame this all on bad federal law, but YouTube is more at fault for allowing money to be diverted without proof from the alleged copyright holder. It would be easy for YouTube to hold all disputed funds in escrow, until the issue of ownership is resolved.
Re: Scamming YouTube creators in this way is more common
This. Youtube should demonetize the video and NO ONE gets any money until it’s resolved. Between this and the other crap they pull, Youtube is becoming a joke.
Re: Re: Scamming YouTube creators in this way is more common
Better still, they should put any money earned into escrow, and then give it to the winner of the dispute. Even better than that, YouTube should fix their dispute resolution system, allow for fair use (even if a determination needs to be made in a court of law) and then remove the content from ContentID if the disputer is found to be wrong. Multiple violations would remove all the disputers content from ContentID. This might work under US law, elsewhere maybe not.
Re: Re: Scamming YouTube creators in this way is more common
You are assuming the point isn’t at least as much to put as many barriers as possible to making content outside of the reach of the legacy gatekeepers, to quash "unauthorized" use of IP, or just to flex their legal muscle (because an indefinitely drawn-out dispute generally favors the richer, more powerful party), than to actually claim the money generated by the content.
One of the worst aspects of YouTube’s copyright claim system is that it has no memory.
I have a video which uses a spoken word audio track that is now in the public domain. There is also a company which sells CDs that contain this track. They have made a copyright claim against my video. I have successfully disputed the claim. But then, a few months later, exactly the same claim was made again, And, again, I sucessfully disputed it. Fast forward a few months, and it all happens again. I’m probably due for a repeat performance fairly soon.
Now, I can understand why the company concerned has made the same claim multiple times. They probably have an automated process in place that scours YouTube for anything matching the content they distribute, and issues a claim any time it finds it. And they have no incentive to stop making repeated claims against the same content, not least because other users of it may, unlike me, not dispute it.
But YouTube’s system ought to be aware that I have already successfully disputed a claim against the audio on my video. It ought to have been flagged on their system that the content is public domain and that no claims are possible.
The fact that YouTube allows repeated identical claims to those which have already successfully been disputed is a major flaw in their system. It should not be necessary for video creators to have to repeately make an identical defence against repeated identical claims.
One of the worst aspects of YouTube’s copyright claim system is that it has no memory.
I have a video which uses a spoken word audio track that is now in the public domain. There is also a company which sells CDs that contain this track. They have made a copyright claim against my video. I have successfully disputed the claim. But then, a few months later, exactly the same claim was made again, And, again, I sucessfully disputed it. Fast forward a few months, and it all happens again. I’m probably due for a repeat performance fairly soon.
Now, I can understand why the company concerned has made the same claim multiple times. They probably have an automated process in place that scours YouTube for anything matching the content they distribute, and issues a claim any time it finds it. And they have no incentive to stop making repeated claims against the same content, not least because other users of it may, unlike me, not dispute it.
But YouTube’s system ought to be aware that I have already successfully disputed a claim against the audio on my video. It ought to have been flagged on their system that the content is public domain and that no claims are possible.
The fact that YouTube allows repeated identical claims to those which have already successfully been disputed is a major flaw in their system. It should not be necessary for video creators to have to repeately make an identical defence against repeated identical claims.
Re: Re:
YouTube allows content providers to upload samples to automatically compare uploaded content to their "property." The obvious missing step is for YouTube to have public domain content uploaded and whitelisted to prevent fraudulent claims, but then, they have no incentive to do this.
Re: Re: Re:
Its not that simple, as something built from the public domain gains a new copyright, just copying that is infringement. Also, I can seethe RIAA going ballistic if YouTube allowed that, claiming that it would allow their copyrights to be stolen.
Re: Re: Re: Re:
It is that simple since substantive new copyrightable elements are required or there is no standing to sue for copyright violation. Any verbatim reoccurence of public domain material does not give course to a copyright claim.
Re: Re: Re:2 Re:
The example given was a substantive new work.
Re: Re: Re:3 Re:
True, but that’s missing the point. The issue is that verbatim public domain content (e.g. a photo of the Mona Lisa and nothing else, a copy of a scene taken from the original recording of a public domain film, a snippet of a public domain sound recording) should be excluded from any material submitted for ContentID. The stuff around the public domain material would presumably be copyrightable in their own right, and this wouldn’t exclude new performances of public domain material (such as a recreation of a scene in a public domain film or a cover of a public domain song) from the ContentID filter.
There might be a blind spot where the item would be a compilation or mash-up of several bits of verbatim public domain material with nothing original other than the arrangement, but those have weaker copyright protection, anyways, so I’d be willing to consider that an acceptable sacrifice in favor of having far fewer instances where stuff that is clearly in the public domain gets claimed.
Re: Re: Re: Re:
"something built from the public domain gains a new copyright"
Something new built from it, but not the original. If I re-edit Nosferatu with a new soundtrack, that doesn’t give me any copyright claim on the original, just the version I created.
"I can seethe RIAA going ballistic if YouTube allowed that, claiming that it would allow their copyrights to be stolen."
They go ballistic if you play the music you own in the wrong setting. They go ballistic if you stream a single instead of buying an album. Maybe it’s time people stopped caring what they respond to and just do what’s best for everyone who’s not them, or giving credence to their false claims.
Re: Re: Re:2 Re:
Don’t forget that being a recording of a performance creates its own copyright. Distinguishing between two performances of the same work my be very difficult for a computer, especially as fuzzy matching is required to avoid simple edits defeating the filter.
Re: Re: Re:3 Re:
It would create a copyright on the recording, not the composition. But yes the problem is accurately telling the difference with no false positives
Re: Re: Re:3 Re:
In my opinion, that isn’t really something that should be left to an automated filter in the first place. An automated filter shouldn’t really be checking which performance it is and err on the side of the older one if it can’t tell.
Re: Re: Re:4 Re:
Manual deamination of copyright status is even harder than manual moderation, requiring even more knowledge from the person making a decision.
Re: Re: Re:5 Re:
That should be determination, although I do think the RIAA and MPAA should be deaminated.
So… when do smaller (i.e., actual) content creators get their stuff scanned into Content ID, so later claims by a gatekeeper corp are registered as obviously bogus by the system?
Re: Re:
It all gets scanned. That’s not were the problem lies.
Re: Re: Re:
Really? It seems that this should obviate a lot of the issues.
Because capitalist dictatorship, of course. Big corporations will do anything to get people into servitude for profits.
Sesame Street’s gonna go bankrupt.
First they came for the language
A couple of years ago i was notified by Scribe to remove a photo posted 10 years earlier, with several others, for violation of Scribe’s Terms of Service agreement. The photo was of pelicans flying over a beach.
When asked why/what, the reply was that i also posted that the picture was taken with a 35mm Leiica, and a woman who worked for Leica (name provided) complained that i had not asked permission from Leica to use the word Leica in my posting (standard practice in galleries is identify the camera).
This was too absurd to argue the point. After years, i quit Scribe and Leica as a customer.
And i did not ask for Leica,s permission to use their name in this posting too!
Re: First they came for the language
For the record, this (both the photo and the post) would be a clear case of nominative fair use of the trademark. You’re just naming the tool used to take the photo; you weren’t pretending to represent Leica, passing off a non-Leica product as theirs, or passing off a Leica product as your own.
I totally understand why you didn’t bother to fight, but unless this was a recurring issue, I don’t know that I’d quit both Scribe and Leica over this without having fought over the issue. I don’t blame you for doing so, though.
No one should be able to copyright a single no,
or a single word,
Will this company sue every publisher who has the no 50 in a book ?
youtube should have a group to select companys who abuse the content id system.And monitor all the claims they make,
the problem is youtube is the no 1 video website,
if creators go to another website they will get very few views.
Most gamers stream on twitch and put video ,s on youtube too.
Re: Re:
No one is claiming copyright on one a single word under the law. The problem is YouTube’s system of allowing a one word response for what is the alleged infringement.
"That is a good idea," said Tero Pulkinnen, "For if numbers could not be copyrighted nobody would ever have reason to do math."
Re: Re:
No, math is just playing with existing numbers.
If there were no copyright granted upon these two numbers then there would be no incentive to create new numbers.
Re: Re: Re:
You say that like tp wouldn’t argue for both idiotic statements…
Re: copyrighting numbers?
Some pizza joint in Toronto trademarked the number 967-1111.
Is one allowed copyright upon an imaginary thing? If not then these folk will not be allowed to copyright imaginary numbers.
Re: Re:
The silly naming aside, I dare you to name any number that isn’t imaginary.
Re: Re: Re:
"I dare you to name any number that isn’t imaginary."
The answer is 42.
Re: Re: Re: Re:
So what is its existence?
Re: Re: Re:2 Re:
You need to read Douglas Adams to find out…
Re: Re: Re:3 Re:
Douglas does not state any physical existence. He stipulates a meaning, but reality does not care about meaning.
Re: Re: Re:4 Re:
The meaning of 42 IS reality.
Re: Re: Re:5 Re:
This conversation might have lead to my brain deciding to hitch a ride on a broken roller coaster, as it lead it a train of thought that began with the question, “Does reality have a physical existence?” Do not attempt to go into that rabbit hole! It’s a trap!
Re: Re: Re:6 Re:
"“Does reality have a physical existence?”"
Depends entirely on your interpretation of quantum physics.
Even boring old pre-bohr physics state that over 99,99% of observable reality is an illusion.
Re: Re: Re:
If it doesn’t have an i in it, it’s not imaginary.
Re: Re: Re: Re:
I have some friends in electrical engineering who’d like to have a word with you.
Re: Re: Re:
This is actually a fascinating question into the philosophy of mathematics. I know of some people who think that only positive integers up to a certain value are “real” (ultrafinitism), some (like you) who think that all numbers are just imaginary constructs, some who thing all nonnegative integers are “real”, some who extend that to nonnegative rational numbers, some who extend that to quadratic numbers plus π and e, etc. It’s a very deep question that involves questions about, “What separates a something that actually exists and an imaginary concept?”, “What is a number?”, and, “What defines a number?”
It’s a very interesting thought, but I think it is far too complicated, nuanced, subjective, and ultimately inconsequential, not to mention being rather irrelevant to the main topic, to go into full detail here.
I personally think that, for the most part, numbers are fictitious constructs in the same way that words and the scientific concept of energy are, but that there are real world examples of just about all of them in some fashion. I also find the debate, while interesting in the abstract, ultimately rather silly and not really worth arguing over.
Re: Re:
Actually, copyright is strongest for imaginary things. Fictional works generally receive stronger protection with more bright lines than nonfiction works, and facts can’t be copyrighted.
Re: Re: Re:
Well yes, but … fictional works usually involve some typing, upon paper or in bits. Either way there is some physical thing that was done, can’t say that for claiming copyright upon a number be it imaginary or not. Thoughts can not be subject to any sort of property laws even tho I’m sure some think otherwise.
Re: Re: Re: Re:
FTR, I’m well aware that the idea of numbers being copyrighted is ridiculous, and honestly, despite the name, imaginary numbers are no more imaginary than real numbers. I was just playing along with the joke.
Maybe I’m just not funny, or people are so used to my being rather serious that my deadpan humor tends to get missed. IDK. But yeah, imaginary numbers are no more protected than real numbers.
This is the greatest gift I have seen for you guys
Can’t you see the gift available to you with a problem like this? You should see how a problem like this is the key to getting the gift you have wanted for years – for YouTube AND the patent/copyright legislative bodies to change their policies. This should be the kind of story you plant your flag on, because it is so ridiculously revealing of problems with YouTube and copyright. This is a story stupid enough to condense into a digestible bite to feed to media.
Just start banging the drum, guys. They’re playing YOUR song here.
Re: This is the greatest gift I have seen for you guys
If you’re looking for a gift it should have arrived when a university tried to trademark the word… "The".
But the broken IP systems still exist because moneyed interests are conveniently sweeping this under the carpet even when mainstream media reports on it.
Perhaps I’m missing something here?
What’s stopping one of these people from pulling the same trick against the people making false copyright claims?
As a response, they should file a thousand frivolous counter claims against Fullscreen. Every week.
That should keep them occupied for a while.
That’s what I’d do.
I’d give up my life as a content creator, and instead devote all of my free time toward making their lives hell.
And then post it all to YouTube in a series of videos.
Re: Re:
"And then post it all to YouTube in a series of videos"
And end up in a lawsuit you can’t win.
Re: Re:
The usual problem is that just the same as patent trolls. These companies make nothing and/or own nothing that you could interrupt. All they have to do is buckshot requests into youtube and free money comes out but if you squeezed them it would somehow turn out that they have as much blood/property/business as a stone and your demands bounce off.
Re: Re:
They’re a company.
You’re not.
While fraudulent claims are given a pass when made by a company, YouTube would almost certainly start handing out penalties when they’re made against a company.
Re: Re: Re:
Without any evidence of this ever coming up, that’s hard to say for sure. I mean, I’m not sure that YouTube even as a system in place for punishing those who submit fraudulent DMCA claims, period. And I have seen them give a pass to claims by individuals against individuals or small companies, too.
We should copyright the the letters A,E,I,O and U and then monetize anything on YouTube that uses any of these letters in it’s title or description.
Re: Re:
…and sometimes Y.
Youtube is honey badger
Youtube don’t care about small semi-pro content creators. They’re too busy converting the platform into a commercial VOD/streaming service. Content creators are competition, now.
This isn’t just random claims.
Employees INSIDE Youtube are allowing this to happen and taking massive (in terms of numbers – each one is a small sum) kickbacks from various copyright trolls, telling them who to target and when.
Youtube needs to start firing a LOT of it’s staff doing this, or the entire thing is going to get swamped by a fairer competitor.
Re: Re:
Hmmm I’ve not heard this one before. Citation?
Re: Re:
To my knowledge, with very, very few exceptions, no DMCA claim gets manually checked before removing content, and it’s even rarer for ContentID claims. It’s almost entirely automated until someone disputes a claim. Unless you have evidence to prove otherwise, I have absolutely no reason to believe that anyone in YouTube is intentionally and knowingly allowing fraudulent claims to pass through, or that anyone in YouTube is being bribed at all.
I also doubt that YouTube is in any danger of being swamped by any competition in the next few years or so unless something drastically changes.
Re: Re: Re:
I’m not saying that youtube is in danger from competition. I’m saying that small shop content creators are treated this way because a) YouTube doesn’t really have anything to lose if they leave, and b) because they can and in most cases the small content creators don’t have a choice.
Youtube’s long-term strategy is clearly to professionalize, consolidate and control as much hosted content as possible, either under their own productions, buying rights from Hollywood, streaming cable channels and supporting the largest community channels. They’re not interested in the long tail anymore.
Most of the new features in Youtube (Youtube Red, Youtube TV, etc) over the past few years have been directly monetized by fees, and their promotional efforts these days are geared toward the content produced in these pay-walled parts of the platform. A small content creator that suddenly goes viral is out of their control and draws views away from the pay-walled content.
This isn’t a big competitor, but the one part of Youtube’s history that they’ve kept is min-maxing via algorithm. If they’re making more money on the pay-walled content, they’ll drive views towards the pay-walled content, even if it means taking no action to remedy spurious DMCA, content ID or demonetization based on community standards.
Stop it!
Stop confusing trademarks and copyrights!
Copy Strike
I had 2 of my Gran Turismo Sport race uploads claimed by V8 Supercars because apparently, I’m so good at driving games that they thought it was footage of qualifying for an old Bathurst 1000 race.
I would expect that WPBS-TV, as the New York State flagship of the Public Broadcasting Service, would hold copyright on the various letters which have sponsored episodes of Sesame Street over the last fifty years.
YouTube’s use of those letters is clearly infringement. When will they be making a donation to public television to compensate for this tort?
Huh.. so Warner Media is kneecapping the competition
What’s a giant media corporation to do against the people who would rather watch something they can relate to and enjoy for free, rather pay attention to they’re own overblown offerings.
Hmm…