Chinese Skiers Training In Norway Ask Local Library To Remove 'Controversial' Books

from the purely-for-your-own-protection dept

The increasing economic, political, and military power of China is evident. Less obvious is how China and its citizens are starting to impose their views and rules on other nations in more subtle ways. For example, in February last year, Techdirt wrote about how China is actively censoring books written by Australian authors for Australian readers. The Norway Today site reports on the latest attempt by Chinese citizens to censor material in other countries. It involves a delegation of more than 40 Chinese cross-country skiers, along with 15 coaches and managers, who are in the Norwegian municipality of Meråker to train for the Beijing 2022 Winter Olympics:

in recent weeks there have been three incidents concerning Chinese literature at the library in Meråker. Among the books the delegation wanted removed is one about the Falun Gong movement that has been banned in China since 1999.

The reason for the Chinese attempt to censor a Norwegian local library is interesting:

"They have said that if any of the Chinese skiers are caught with these books, they are afraid that they would risk being sent to labor camp or prison in China," [library manager Anne] Marken told the newspaper.

To Marken's credit, the library has refused categorically to remove any books: "We have freedom of speech in Norway so that was completely out of the question." It's only a small incident, easily overlooked. But if it can happen in a tiny local library in the depths of Norway, just because a few Chinese skiers were training there, it is highly likely to start happening in other places, where more Chinese citizens are present, and where China has greater economic and political influence.

Follow me @glynmoody on Twitter, Diaspora, or Mastodon.

Filed Under: book banning, censorship, china, free speech, norway, skiiers


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  • icon
    Anonymous Anonymous Coward (profile), 6 Jan 2020 @ 5:58pm

    Temptation is not all powerful, it can be overcome.

    It appears that the Chinese team should be practicing something else. Self restraint. The team managers could merely impress upon the team members about the potential danger reading something banned in their own country, rather than ask an entity in a foreign country to remove the temptation. That self restraint might benefit the team members in other areas of their life as well.

    Kudos to the local library for not bending to their will.

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    • identicon
      Anonymous Coward, 6 Jan 2020 @ 8:06pm

      Re: Temptation is not all powerful, it can be overcome.

      The team managers could merely impress upon the team members about the potential danger reading something banned in their own country

      Assuming that they know that it's banned, or have even heard of the title before. Assuming that they've even heard of the TOPIC before, since the whole point of Chinese censorship is to keep them from hearing about certain topics. Assuming that asking somebody which books are banned, or asking whether or not some specific book is banned, won't get them in trouble in itself... with or without getting an actual answer.

      Don't underestimate how much of a shithole they have going in China, or the level of idiocy involved in the attitudes of Those In Charge. They're world leaders in that kind of stupid assholery.

      Obviously the library still shouldn't remove the books, though.

      Maybe they could stick on big red BANNED IN CHINA stickers, as a courtesy both to those who don't want to read them and to those who do.

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      • icon
        Scary Devil Monastery (profile), 7 Jan 2020 @ 5:45am

        Re: Re: Temptation is not all powerful, it can be overcome.

        "Assuming that they know that it's banned, or have even heard of the title before...."

        Manager: "Guys, now that we're abroad, do remember NOT to read ANY of the books banned by the government"

        Team members: "Eh...do you have a list?"

        Manager: "......tell you what, just don't read anything, don't talk to anyone, and if someone talks to you just pretend you don't speak english."

        <cue sepulchral cheering from the ghosts of long-dead cold-war era soviet commissars>

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    • identicon
      Anonymous Coward, 7 Jan 2020 @ 4:05am

      Re: Temptation is not all powerful, it can be overcome.

      ... or they could exercise something completely different:
      Asylum protocols.

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  • icon
    That One Guy (profile), 6 Jan 2020 @ 7:09pm

    A most telling, and damning, argument

    The reason for the Chinese attempt to censor a Norwegian local library is interesting:

    Finding a strangely colored rock is 'interesting'. Learning that an author you follow is also a fan of something you enjoy can be 'interesting'. 'If you're found with a particular book you can be sentence to slave labor or prison' is most certainly not 'interesting', that is well into 'horrible', 'abhorrent' and/or 'reprehensible' territory.

    "They have said that if any of the Chinese skiers are caught with these books, they are afraid that they would risk being sent to labor camp or prison in China," [library manager Anne] Marken told the newspaper.

    Slave labor or prison for reading books. Nice to see they aren't even pretending not to be a brutal authoritarian regime, because if you're going to be an oppressive and evil government, the least you can do is be honest about it.

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    • identicon
      Anonymous Coward, 6 Jan 2020 @ 8:10pm

      Re: A most telling, and damning, argument

      "..if you're found with a certain book, you can be sentenced to slave labor.. is most certainly not interesting."

      I find it among other things interesting and fascinating, the different types of cruelty all governments on this planet commit. It never ceases to amaze me what someone in a position of authority is capable of.

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      • icon
        Code Monkey (profile), 7 Jan 2020 @ 6:33am

        Re: Re: A most telling, and damning, argument

        "..if you're found with a certain book, you can be sentenced to slave labor..."

        Ok, so if you know you live in an authoritative regime, DON'T CHOOSE THOSE BOOKS WHEN YOU'RE AT THE LIBRARY. (Duh)

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        • icon
          Scary Devil Monastery (profile), 8 Jan 2020 @ 1:25am

          Re: Re: Re: A most telling, and damning, argument

          "Ok, so if you know you live in an authoritative regime, DON'T CHOOSE THOSE BOOKS WHEN YOU'RE AT THE LIBRARY. (Duh)"

          Except...the list of the banned books is ALSO banned.

          So they walk into the library, knowing that reading or even looking at certain books may have them quietly sent to a labor camp.

          But they don't know which books will do that.

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          • icon
            PaulT (profile), 8 Jan 2020 @ 1:40am

            Re: Re: Re: Re: A most telling, and damning, argument

            Also, who says they have to have selected the books themselves? You only have to be "caught with" the book, after all. Some kind person could just get the book for you and leave it in your room for someone to find... That's why these regimes are so fun.

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            • icon
              Uriel-238 (profile), 8 Jan 2020 @ 12:34pm

              Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: A most telling, and damning, argument

              I'm pretty sure that was a common KGB tact to remove political rivals from public life. Yes.

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          • icon
            Wendy Cockcroft (profile), 8 Jan 2020 @ 3:09am

            Re: Re: Re: Re: A most telling, and damning, argument

            “But the [list was] on display…”
            “On display? I eventually had to go down to the cellar to find [it].”
            “That’s the display department.”
            “With a flashlight.”
            “Ah, well, the lights had probably gone.”
            “So had the stairs.”
            “But look, you found the [list], didn’t you?”
            “Yes,” said Arthur, “yes I did. It was on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying ‘Beware of the Leopard.”

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          • icon
            Uriel-238 (profile), 8 Jan 2020 @ 12:33pm

            The master banned list of banned lists of banned books

            This sounds like the beginning of a Gödelian paradox.

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    • icon
      Uriel-238 (profile), 6 Jan 2020 @ 10:00pm

      Re: A most telling, and damning, argument

      they are afraid that they would risk being sent to labor camp or prison

      If these were Soviet citizens during the cold war, Norway's state department would be preparing asylum documents for these skiers to be ready for a signature.

      It's curious and distressing in this case that it is not.

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      • icon
        PaulT (profile), 7 Jan 2020 @ 1:05am

        Re: Re: A most telling, and damning, argument

        So, your takeaway from this story is that Norway are in the wrong for not instantly trying to help people defect (who haven't stated any desire to do so, unless there's some attempt missing from the articles)?

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        • identicon
          Valkor, 7 Jan 2020 @ 12:23pm

          Re: Re: Re: A most telling, and damning, argument

          The distressing part IS that the skiers "haven't stated any desire to do so".

          They are concerned that they could be sent into slave labor for being near books with banned ideas. Why not take the first opportunity to GTFO?

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          • identicon
            bob, 7 Jan 2020 @ 2:15pm

            Re: Re: Re: Re: A most telling, and damning, argument

            The chinese government may be holding something over the team members while they are abroad so that they are incentivised to return.

            If they step out of line a family member still in China could be punished or something like that.

            It's also possible that the team doesn't even think they have a problem at home. Or that what they deal with isn't any worse than what they would deal with outside of the country.

            From just this brief interaction its hard to know what is going on in these skiers heads.

            It may not make sense but remember we have such things as Stockholm syndrome and people staying in an abusive relationship for many diverse reasons.

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          • icon
            PaulT (profile), 8 Jan 2020 @ 12:34am

            Re: Re: Re: Re: A most telling, and damning, argument

            "Why not take the first opportunity to GTFO?"

            Because some of them actually believe in those ideals. If everybody in such a society was trying to escape from it, there wouldn't be any such society. Especially if they stand to reap the rewards of being hailed heroes for the state on their return.

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          • icon
            Scary Devil Monastery (profile), 8 Jan 2020 @ 1:35am

            Re: Re: Re: Re: A most telling, and damning, argument

            "They are concerned that they could be sent into slave labor for being near books with banned ideas. Why not take the first opportunity to GTFO?"

            You're missing the point here, i think. They are concerned about being sent to labor camps because they might make a mistake.
            They never said this was a dealbreaker about living in china, where some 95% of the citizenry are quite accepting about living in a totalitarian regime because as long as you keep your head down to authority life will be very good.

            The average ethnic Han chinese isn't living in the old soviet union where noting worked. S/he lives in a modern first world country with a booming economy, thriving job market, where first-class education is available and the sky is the limit for those willing to put in the effort.

            Why the hell would they want to leave for a lesser life unless they already were in trouble with the government?

            China isn't a tinpot dictatorship or bana republic junta where some insecure moustache-twirling dictator oppresses his people for the shitz'n'giggles. They're an ancient imperial power which has learned - for thousands of years - just how to hit that compromise between absolute authority and citizen happiness where the result is one billion people's worth of nation remaining stable for centuries at a time.

            Imagine if Alexander the great or Julius Caesar had conquered all of europe and most of near asia and the resulting empire had still existed today. That's China. It takes a lot for the average chinese to just up and leave Huaxia.

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        • icon
          Uriel-238 (profile), 7 Jan 2020 @ 1:04pm

          No stated desire for asylum

          Soviets abroad were also renowned for not stating desires for asylum, at least until they were assured a quiet place where they could talk about it without word of such talk getting to USSR state agents. Soviets were also commonly not allowed to go abroad unless they had family at home left in very special KGB care.

          Islander: Oh wow. These books are forbidden to those who live on the very-active-and-imminently-explosive volcano island from whence I come.

          Emissary: Your island home seems precarious. Are you sure you don't want to live someplace away from a live volcano?

          Islander: Oh no. Never. Lapses of patriotism and talk of leaving are also forbidden to those who live on the very-active-and-imminently-explosive volcano island from whence I come.

          Emissary: That does seem to limit your options.

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          • icon
            PaulT (profile), 8 Jan 2020 @ 12:36am

            Re: No stated desire for asylum

            Yes, but it would be a mistake to believe that every one of these people is secretly looking for asylum. Norway offering asylum to every visiting Chinese national because they assume they want to get out as a matter of course wouldn't exactly be good diplomacy, even if you personally think they're all secretly trying to run away.

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            • icon
              Uriel-238 (profile), 8 Jan 2020 @ 12:30pm

              Secretly looking for asylum

              Not every Chinese national in Norway is hinting at the precarity of their circumstances at home. As this group was rather large, it sounds like their political handlers did the job for them by attempting to extend Chinese censorship laws to Norway.

              I'm sorry. If any of the Chinese skiing team and its entourage are ever found to be in the same room as a forbidden book, they run the risk of being gulagged. Yes. Gulag is a gerund now.

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      • icon
        Scary Devil Monastery (profile), 7 Jan 2020 @ 5:50am

        Re: Re: A most telling, and damning, argument

        "If these were Soviet citizens during the cold war, Norway's state department would be preparing asylum documents for these skiers to be ready for a signature. It's curious and distressing in this case that it is not."

        Not so much. Soviet was, by all accounts, very much an anachronistic shit-pit where nothing worked and no one had hope or ambition.

        China, otoh, is a very good place to live if you are an ethnic Han with ambition and education. And don't mind holding a slave mentality, naturally.

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        • icon
          Uriel-238 (profile), 7 Jan 2020 @ 1:08pm

          where nothing worked and no one had hope or ambition

          The USSR espionage service worked magnificently, and its secret police never seemed to run out of wrongdoers to gulag.

          As for the dearth of hope or ambition, you may be confusing that with really good Russian vodka.

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          • icon
            PaulT (profile), 8 Jan 2020 @ 12:37am

            Re: where nothing worked and no one had hope or ambition

            "The USSR espionage service worked magnificently, and its secret police never seemed to run out of wrongdoers to gulag"

            ...and yet some people defected TO the USSR... Not everybody thinks the way you think they should, and it's not the job of middlemen to stick their oar in uninvited.

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            • icon
              Uriel-238 (profile), 8 Jan 2020 @ 12:38pm

              Not everybody thinks the way you think they should

              I personally know of exceptions. A friend of mine fell in love with Siberia and moved there to teach English. I'm absolutely sure those emmigrating to the Soviet Union weren't going there for the sweet, sweet authoritarianism.

              Just because some people are like a terrible place doesn't mean we should cease our concern for its human rights failings.

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              • icon
                PaulT (profile), 9 Jan 2020 @ 8:27am

                Re: Not everybody thinks the way you think they should

                "Just because some people are like a terrible place doesn't mean we should cease our concern for its human rights failings."

                Yes, and that concern is valid. However, that does not mean that other countries should step in the middle and assume that everybody is trying to get out.

                Perhaps the reason why these athletes are so concerned about getting those books away from them is because they stand to hold a much higher position in that society than they normally could, and that's why they're working so hard to achieve it. That is, they're happy with the abuses and inequality, so long as they favour them.

                It's not a good thing from the point of view of us in the west, but there's a number of cultural reasons why that's the case. It's not Norway's job to dive in and try to "protect" them just because Norway thinks they know better. Especially when all they're likely to achieve by doing so is placing these specific athletes at greater risk without changing anything about the regime they face back home.

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                • icon
                  Uriel-238 (profile), 9 Jan 2020 @ 12:15pm

                  "other countries should step in the middle"

                  I believe in this case it was the Chinese political officers who stepped in the middle of Norway and asserted China's will. Not the other way around.

                  The state department of Norway should only respond accordingly.

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                  • icon
                    PaulT (profile), 10 Jan 2020 @ 2:07am

                    Re: "other countries should step in the middle"

                    "I believe in this case it was the Chinese political officers who stepped in the middle of Norway and asserted China's will."

                    Where's that in the article? What I'm seeing is the skiiers themselves asking for the books to be removed from the library lest they face problems on their return to China. Are you saying that the delegation themselves shouldn't make requests on their own behalf? Or, are you saying that a government should have no ability to take action depending on what their citizens did abroad (which has some terrible implications relating to American sex tourists if so).

                    "The state department of Norway should only respond accordingly."

                    They have. You seem to think that isn't enough and they should be preparing to take in Chinese citizens whether they want to defect or not, but that's a different issue.

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                    • icon
                      Uriel-238 (profile), 10 Jan 2020 @ 2:18pm

                      Chinese political officers

                      The presence of Chinese political officers is not present in the article, but I suspect that much like the FOSTA situation in the States, it would be in the best interests of the common skiers and coaches to have no idea what's on the forbidden books list, or to have the capacity to read for that matter. The persons asking for the removal of the titles from the library would be an officer policing.

                      Yes, that's a bit of a leap and inference, but it makes more sense than an educated skier noticing forbidden books and then huing and crying about their presence, thus putting himself in the jeopardy he was trying to avoid.

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                  • icon
                    Scary Devil Monastery (profile), 10 Jan 2020 @ 6:12am

                    Re: "other countries should step in the middle"

                    "I believe in this case it was the Chinese political officers who stepped in the middle of Norway and asserted China's will. Not the other way around."

                    Doubtful. First of all China doesn't usually operate under a "political officers" system. It doesn't have to, because at the end of the day the chinese citizenry is doing pretty well, living in a first world country under an ultra-authoritarian regime which is fairly benevolent as long as you remember the confucian virtues of obedience and filial courtesy.

                    It's quite different from the old USSR's method of trying to keep their citizens in line because exposure to outside conditions would be showing all sorts of things which actually worked outside of the soviet system.

                    In China you won't need commissars and political officers much, because if you DO fuck up your concerned neighbor may just tell the authorities you've gone down a dark road and need intervention.

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                    • icon
                      Uriel-238 (profile), 10 Jan 2020 @ 2:12pm

                      Chinese political officers.

                      I've heard stories. Granted, they're only stories.

                      In the late eighties, a Chinese ballet / dance / performance troupe was in San Francisco. A young woman (who'd later be a flatmate of mine) was the teen daughter of one of the American attachés and was allowed to hang out with the younger dancers. And in that case there were absolutely political officers who dictated where the troupe was allowed to go, what they could do and what they could or could not talk about.

                      Again, granted, there may be half a dozen reasons why such a story might not be relevant in this case, but the circumstances seem similar enough to suggest it might after all.

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                      • icon
                        Scary Devil Monastery (profile), 13 Jan 2020 @ 1:50am

                        Re: Chinese political officers.

                        "In the late eighties..."

                        And there's the point to be made. China 30-40 years ago wasn't a first world nation hosting half the manufacturing needs of the west on their soil. Back then they were the source of cheap toys and knockoffs - and the discontent was massive. Recall that the Tiananmen square massacre was in 89.

                        Back then they had a need to police what was, at the time, discontented and poverty-stricken citizenry. Same as the USSR. That's no longer the case.

                        Tangentially Putin's New Russia seems to be following the same model, with Russians now free to go wherever they like because there's no fear of mass migration from a country which isn't that bad to live in any longer.

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          • icon
            Wendy Cockcroft (profile), 8 Jan 2020 @ 3:25am

            Re: where nothing worked and no one had hope or ambition

            My dad went to Russia for his honeymoon at the height of the cold war and came back with some colourful stories. Basically, he found the populace in a state of grim, resentful terror, always looking over their shoulders and only doing the least amount required of them since doing more wasn't worth their while. E.G. the time he saw someone painting a line around the phone box because he'd dropped some paint on the pavement. Customer service wasn't great and they were always shouting "Prosta, prosta!" at him and the other tourists. It means "Hurry up," apparently.

            Everyone had a job, however trivial. Sometimes the jobs were just for the sake of saying they had one. Public transport was ridiculously cheap; you could get a train from one end of the country to the other for about 5 roubles.

            He met some people who were a bit naughty and operated outside the law. One was a taxi driver who accepted his watch in lieu of payment. All the shops demanded payment in $USD.

            One thing I've never understood about British socialists (mired as they are in pointless class war politics) is their insistence that certain cultural activities such as ballet are elitist. It really is the politics of envy and they're not showing any sign of giving it up. In Russia the poorest peasants could attend the Bolshoi. Government policy was to give them access to culture, not to lock it away.

            One lie the Right loves to trot out about the Soviet Union is that everyone was poor. Not true. If you were a Party member and knew how to game the system life was very good. The people queuing for miles for a loaf of bread in badly-run, stock-depleted shops were the rank and file peasantry. The Western defectors were hoping to have the Party member lifestyle and cared little for the peasants. My dad saw that for himself while he was there. What amazed him the most were the left-leaning suck-ups who also saw this and proclaimed it was totally full of awesome and win.

            Finally, we had a Russian exchange student at my secondary school at around the same time. Nice kid, very quiet, hardly dared to say a word. I sometimes think about her and wonder if she was afraid to say anything or was just very shy.

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            • icon
              Scary Devil Monastery (profile), 9 Jan 2020 @ 1:17am

              Re: Re: where nothing worked and no one had hope or ambition

              "Basically, he found the populace in a state of grim, resentful terror, always looking over their shoulders and only doing the least amount required of them since doing more wasn't worth their while."

              People who like quoting 1984 sometimes forget that at one point George Orwell was a socialist. One reason Soviet was so restrictive about visitor visas was because they found early on that exposure to the real USSR became wakeup calls for would-be foreign sympathizers.

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              • icon
                Wendy Cockcroft (profile), 9 Jan 2020 @ 3:27am

                Re: Re: Re: where nothing worked and no one had hope or ambition

                George Orwell was a socialist.

                Yes he was. I think he liked the idea of making a fairer world, he just didn't like the authoritarian repression. It's totally possible to have one without the other, but people who fear socialism on principle can't or won't accept that.

                exposure to the real USSR became wakeup calls for would-be foreign sympathizers.

                Unless they'd been so totally poisoned by the Koolaid that they weren't bothered by it -- or didn't think it applied to them. Heck, we see it today over extreme capitalism.

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                • icon
                  Scary Devil Monastery (profile), 10 Jan 2020 @ 1:51am

                  Re: Re: Re: Re: where nothing worked and no one had hope or ambi

                  "Heck, we see it today over extreme capitalism."

                  At a certain point of conviction political belief becomes religious faith.

                  That's why I for one believe that rather than place belief in any given ideology or policy one would be better off by far to criticize it. Sadly humans have a hard time applying the scientific theory of falsification to...well, anything. We like to affirm rather than scrutinize.

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    • icon
      PaulT (profile), 7 Jan 2020 @ 1:03am

      Re: A most telling, and damning, argument

      "Slave labor or prison for reading books"

      Reading? Sounds like being caught with the book is enough, you don't need to have read a word...

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    • identicon
      Anonymous Coward, 7 Jan 2020 @ 7:13am

      Re: A most telling, and damning, argument

      Of course the Chinese government isn't pretending to not be authoritarian. Chinese political philosophy for the last millennia has openly endorsed authoritarianism as the only proper form of government. They don't think it's evil to be authoritarian. It's not even an insult to call them authoritarian, it's like calling an American 'democratic'. They fully believe that obedience to authority, and the government, are more important than the personal freedoms of citizens.

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      • icon
        Uriel-238 (profile), 7 Jan 2020 @ 1:28pm

        Authoritarianism

        Authoritarianism can be well and good when there is an extremely high adherence to the rule of law (and some system to make sure legislation is not free to add clumsy or prejudiced laws to the charter.)

        The problem is, no authoritarian system has ever been successful at doing that. Law enforcement and state officials invariably turn to using the system of state power to serve their own ends, and not the interests of the state or the public.

        China's method has been the same as the US' (and the Vatican, and every large unilateral institution ever.) to make the workings of the government so obtuse that all corruption is shielded from scrutiny, often covering up wrongdoing by burying the victims.

        And that is exactly the sort of shit that, when it ultimately sees sunlight, drives the public to bust out the guillotines, or rush state facilities with bombs strapped to their chests.

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        • icon
          Scary Devil Monastery (profile), 8 Jan 2020 @ 1:53am

          Re: Authoritarianism

          "And that is exactly the sort of shit that, when it ultimately sees sunlight, drives the public to bust out the guillotines, or rush state facilities with bombs strapped to their chests."

          China found the magic formula. Their empire has been stable for 2500 years. A few dozen early uprisings taught the dynasties and bureaucracy where the line had to be drawn.

          It is a great life to be one of the 95% in China. Bonus points for being ethnic Han but as long as you aren't a historically troublesome minority shit usually works out well for you.

          The closest US analogy would be what many recruits get told on joining the army; "There are three ways of doing things around here; The Right way, the wrong way, and the Army way. If you always opt for the third choice, trouble will never find you"

          The average Chinese citizen believes in that concept the same way we westerners have a preconception of the old greek ideal of democracy.

          That's why China's methods are not the same as the US's or the Vaticans.

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          • icon
            Wendy Cockcroft (profile), 8 Jan 2020 @ 5:50am

            Re: Re: Authoritarianism

            China found the magic formula. Their empire has been stable for 2500 years. A few dozen early uprisings taught the dynasties and bureaucracy where the line had to be drawn.

            Bro, you are mistaken. I've been watching a BBC series of documentaries on China that skates over the current regime's repression. The fact is, while it has never been continually stable, subsequent rulers were able to impose order relatively quickly because Confuscianism never really went away. After the Revolution, the Communists realised that there was no point in trying to supplant a system that actually worked, so they embraced and absorbed it. Here's some further reading for you:

            Basic overview: https://www.chinahighlights.com/travelguide/culture/china-history.htm

            This is a bit more in-depth: https://www.ancient.eu/china/

            This is pretty comprehensive and explains their reluctance to embrace Western values (tl:dr; we screwed them over too many times): https://www.britannica.com/place/China/History

            China does indeed have a continuous history but its stability -- and indeed its borders -- has been disrupted many times. It's the culture that has kept it together as a nation for all this time.

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            • icon
              Scary Devil Monastery (profile), 9 Jan 2020 @ 1:54am

              Re: Re: Re: Authoritarianism

              "Bro, you are mistaken. I've been watching a BBC series of documentaries on China that skates over the current regime's repression. The fact is, while it has never been continually stable, subsequent rulers were able to impose order relatively quickly because Confuscianism never really went away."

              Here's the thing - every european empire fell apart like a house of cards a generation or two after the empire builder died.
              Qin's legacy, however, kept China one cohesive entity for 2500 years - through several dozen major uprisings, multiple invasions, and foreign occupation. Yes, that nation has been disrupted MANY times, but it always got right back together.
              Hell, Djingis and Kublai Khan "took" China - and were seamlessly absorbed as the Yuan dynasty. Mao made a few waves but in the end all that happened was that the modern mandarin bureaucracy discovered they could do just fine without an emperor as the figurehead.

              Every time that nation's been shaken it's gone right back to - as you note - business as usual. That's why I say it's a stable empire. Fundamentally a roly-poly toy. And it illustrates why the average chinese citizens finds western values unpalatable. We don't have one single example of a western nation which didn't shatter like glass the first time a serious threat hit it. Our historical empires have managed to subsist only until they expanded to death or stagnated.

              Thank you for those links, by the way. I was missing a good coherent one-site timeline.

              "China does indeed have a continuous history but its stability -- and indeed its borders -- has been disrupted many times. It's the culture that has kept it together as a nation for all this time."

              And that's why most chinese citizens today accept the status quo. The regime doesn't even have to lie outrageously about historical facts to the extent that we're used to from the Soviet and DDR examples.
              A citizen of china knows that in the world s/he lives in that ONE nation with an unbroken 2500+ year history, and that nation has always been continually beset by envious barbarians and greedy savages from outside. And those barbarians keep trying to peddle values which appear to have kept those barbarians in a state of fractured tribalism.

              "This is pretty comprehensive and explains their reluctance to embrace Western values (tl:dr; we screwed them over too many times)"

              The "century of humiliation" where a gang of jumped-up drug lords forced china to surrender land and sovereignty certainly doesn't help much, and neither does the fact that "western values" haven't historically worked even for westerners, when it comes to social stability.

              I think we're on the same page. What I mean when i call China a stable empire is that for the last few millennia no matter what happens to that country it ends up going straight back to being Imperial China within a generation.

              Ironically that's basically where his august personage, chairman-for-life Xi Jin Ping is at now.

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              • icon
                Wendy Cockcroft (profile), 9 Jan 2020 @ 3:29am

                Re: Re: Re: Re: Authoritarianism

                Indeed. Totalitarian regimes of every stripe tend towards that. We like emperors and tyrants, it seems, until they're tyrannical to us.

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                • icon
                  Scary Devil Monastery (profile), 10 Jan 2020 @ 2:10am

                  Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Authoritarianism

                  "Totalitarian regimes of every stripe tend towards that. We like emperors and tyrants, it seems, until they're tyrannical to us."

                  Not just emperors and tyrants. Authority in general. Take the DoJ's Barr. He's a complete tool who believes, with all his heart, that individual freedoms are obstacles. In this he's hardly alone.

                  Hell, a significant proportion of americans believe that police getting away with murder is a good thing - because the hardass with a badge is glorified.

                  When GWB's administration was found to be lying about every aspect leading to the Iraq war, his electorate still defended him at any cost - the same way Trump's adherents blindly cheer him on no matter what he does. He once bragged he could shoot a man in the streets and still not lose a single vote. And he was right.

                  There is a strong urge in humans - men and women alike - to venerate and adore the murderous psychopath with power. Darth Vader has a following Gandhi and Martin Luther King Jr. can't match. Convicted murderers drown in love letters sent by suddenly emerging fans. I don't know if you speak German but if you do try listening to some of hitler's old speeches. Deep beneath the repulsion you'll find a visceral thrill. It's an unpleasant truth that we still retain, deep down in our hindbrains, an instinct to follow and obey what we perceive to be the most capable killer.

                  Most people who are unaware of that instinct often fall prey to it. Cue the kid who blindly followed the neighborhood bully and the abused woman asking herself why she kept gravitating to dangerous assholes. Or, for that matter, how a SEAL team leader can keep leading elite soldiers into outright murder for such a long time before anyone speaks up.

                  It takes, in totalitarian regimes, a great deal of suffering before the citizenry even decides to abandon his/her belief in the Fearless Leader.

                  More people need to read Machiavelli, in self-defense if nothing else. It's a good bet most successful politicians have.

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    icon
    seedeevee (profile), 6 Jan 2020 @ 7:53pm

    I say hearsay, you say evil

    I guess the author couldn't wait to try to get a comment from one of the 55 people in the delegation as to whether or not there was a problem - but xenophobic hysteria isn't limited to the USA.

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  • icon
    Jeroen Hellingman (profile), 7 Jan 2020 @ 12:34am

    I get a lot of spam from Chinese companies wishing to do business; most of them go to /dev/null straight away; but I have been considering to send an automatic response, something like this:

    Thanks for your kind offer, but unfortunately I am not in a position to take it up right now. However, since we now are talking, I would love to share with you some information about [Pick one of: Tibet; Hong Kong; Uighurs; Falung Gong; Tiananmen Square; Censorship...] and add some ebooks on the subject, written in a non-confrontational style; preferably in Chinese.

    Should solve the spam problem fairly quickly

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    • icon
      Scary Devil Monastery (profile), 7 Jan 2020 @ 5:51am

      Re:

      Leveraging the vast chinese government authority to deal with your chinese spam mails?

      ...can't tell if Genius or unadulterated evil.

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      • identicon
        Anonymous Coward, 7 Jan 2020 @ 6:28am

        Re: Re:

        ...can't tell if Genius or unadulterated evil.

        The two are not mutually exclusive.

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        • icon
          Scary Devil Monastery (profile), 8 Jan 2020 @ 1:54am

          Re: Re: Re:

          "The two are not mutually exclusive."

          Great. My concept of the moustache-twirling evil mastermind now includes norwegian small businessmen as an option...

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  • identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 7 Jan 2020 @ 6:44am

    They were graciously allowed entry into the country of Norway to train for the upcoming winter olympics in China, what were they doing at a library?

    In addition, it is presently winter in both Norway and China and the winter olympics are to be held in China. Are there no training facilities in China?

    I have read other stories about how some Chinese tourists are acting a bit immature in the countries they are visiting, sorta like some americans I guess.

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      identicon
      Anonymous Coward, 7 Jan 2020 @ 7:58am

      Re:

      I have read other stories about how some Chinese tourists are acting a bit immature in the countries they are visiting, sorta like some americans I guess.

      In all my world travels, as recently as last year, I have never witnessed an American acting poorly in a foreign country. I have witnessed, pretty much without fail, are Japanese, Korean and Chinese tourists acting rather poorly. Mostly Chinese. Rude, loud, obnoxious and totally oblivious to local custom and other tourists.

      I started traveling late in life (30s) and was keenly aware of the reputation American tourists have. For the last 20 years I've carefully watched my own step and those of other tourists but the American reputation has turned out to be completely false and much better applied to East Asian tourists.

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      • identicon
        Rocky, 7 Jan 2020 @ 8:51am

        That percentage...

        My experience is that most people traveling abroad are just normal people with some interesting foibles and naivety due to cultural differences.

        But regardless of the country of origin, you will always have that small percentage of tourists that are loud, obnoxious and in general entitled assholes.

        And regarding foibles, a surprising large percentage of Japanese tourists visiting Paris suffers from something called the Paris Syndrome (google it).

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      • identicon
        Anonymous Coward, 7 Jan 2020 @ 11:03am

        Re: Re:

        "the American reputation has turned out to be completely false"

        In your eyes, but did you ask anyone who lives there about their experiences?
        A possible reply might be that many have changed their behavior(s) while others not so much.

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    • icon
      Uriel-238 (profile), 7 Jan 2020 @ 1:12pm

      Immature tourists

      Tourists of all walks are notoriously childish. Part of it is just being in a strange place with strange (amazing) sights and little awareness of the local culture. But also part of it is having enough money to tour.

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      • icon
        Wendy Cockcroft (profile), 8 Jan 2020 @ 5:53am

        Re: Immature tourists

        Regular tourist here -- not true. Rich and I are always respectful of the locals and don't treat them like idiots. Mind you we take most of our holidays here in the UK and in my native Ireland.

        One time, when I lived in London, an American tourist walked up to me and asked if it was correct to put salt and vinegar on her chips (finger-thick French fries). I confirmed it was and walked away. Do the Yanks really not know this?

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  • identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 7 Jan 2020 @ 7:03am

    the best option is for these skiers and every other person in China to join those in Hong Kong in fighting for total freedom! that includes freedom of speech, freedom to read books that you want to read etc etc instead of being tied to the beliefs of people who are decades old! there wouldn't be any risk of being sent to a labor camp or other way of imprisonment!!

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    • icon
      Scary Devil Monastery (profile), 8 Jan 2020 @ 2:09am

      Re:

      "the best option is for these skiers and every other person in China to join those in Hong Kong in fighting for total freedom!"

      Best option for whom? The ones doing the protesting will at best face five years in a labor/reeducation camp. Their entire families will go on the "suspect" list.
      And for 95% of the citizenry, including their close friends and neighbors, That decision will not only not make any sense but react as if they'd suddenly gone insane.

      The US analogy would be if one of your neighbors suddenly insisted on being an outspoken nudist and dangling himself all over the sidewalk holding a placard protesting against clothes in general while the family despairs and old friends decide to turn the other way and not know that weird person any longer.

      "...that includes freedom of speech, freedom to read books that you want to read etc etc instead of being tied to the beliefs of people who are decades old!"

      Something which simply isn't important to 9 out of 10 people around them. What you say goes back 2500 years or so to the greek philosphers who introduced the concept of democracy here in the west. The chinese do not have that preconception.
      They have 2500+ years worth of being an empire instead, and that "freedom" you speak of is, to most of them, not essential.

      "...there wouldn't be any risk of being sent to a labor camp or other way of imprisonment!!"

      Feel free to convince 1,4 billion chinese citizens, 90%+ of whom are quite satisfied with their lives, that they need to mount an armed uprising to overturn their satisfactory lives for a destructive rebellion which will seriously imperil the survival of their families.

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      • icon
        Wendy Cockcroft (profile), 8 Jan 2020 @ 5:55am

        Re: Re:

        They have 2500+ years worth of being an empire instead

        Being a distinct nation. There have been several empires and regime changes.

        Feel free to convince 1,4 billion chinese citizens, 90%+ of whom are quite satisfied with their lives, that they need to mount an armed uprising to overturn their satisfactory lives for a destructive rebellion which will seriously imperil the survival of their families.

        You won't. Only the desperate attempt revolution. The rest of us have too much to lose.

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        • icon
          Scary Devil Monastery (profile), 9 Jan 2020 @ 2:12am

          Re: Re: Re:

          "Being a distinct nation. There have been several empires and regime changes."

          The wars of unification after which the Qin dynasty rose was roughly 2300 years ago. After that one dynasty followed or supplanted another. I call that "Imperial China" because the core concept, in all that time, never changed. It's always been an ultra-autocratic government figureheaded by a nominally all-powerful emperor, but mainly run by elite bureaucrats.

          We could refer to it as "Huaxia" which is the nebulous concept you might get a chinese to drag up.

          "You won't. Only the desperate attempt revolution. The rest of us have too much to lose."

          Which is precisely why China is going to keep right on trampling the Uighurs, occupying Tibet, reabsorbing Hong Kong, and eventually retake Taiwan without a single fear of internal dissent or uprising. The chinese government is VERY careful to ensure that the vast majority of the citizenry lives a good and prosperous life.

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          • icon
            Wendy Cockcroft (profile), 9 Jan 2020 @ 3:31am

            Re: Re: Re: Re:

            It's a shame to be anything but full-on commie Han Chinese, then. You're gonna be crushed.

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            • icon
              Scary Devil Monastery (profile), 10 Jan 2020 @ 2:27am

              Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

              "It's a shame to be anything but full-on commie Han Chinese, then. You're gonna be crushed."

              Actually...as long as you can mouth the communist platitudes it's all right. China is, and has always been, a nation of merchants whose market is so red in tooth and claw they makes fanatical randist libertarians look like nanny-state advocates.

              What will really screw you is being Uighur or Tibetan, both of whom China has found difficult to properly integrate. The uighurs stand out as having tried to secede multiple times, a few times successfully, with soviet backing.

              Being Hui - a well-adjusted muslim ethnicity in China - isn't going to harm you. Neither will being Miao. Generally speaking as long as you're part of the 56 ethnicities recognized by the chinese government and your ethnicity has a history of producing great chinese generals, soldiers and statesmen then you have no problem.

              But if your ethnic history insists you're a turk or tibetan rather than chinese then you're screwed in the PRC.

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              • identicon
                Them, 11 Jan 2020 @ 1:22am

                Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

                You are simply not correct in your assertions about Tibetans en masse or otherwise, because they are a relatively new influx of migrants. And, I have observed that the CCP is progressing forward, despite the cinstant trade war drum from the west.

                One of my business partners in China is Tibetan, and he is doing just fine, fully integrated at both the local, and party levels with the Han-his guanxi is excellent, and runs a successful business (he was,educated at USC ).

                While issues of local rivalry are ever present amongst the multi -ethnic merchant /working class, as between Han and say, Zangzu, Yizu, etc., these clashes tend to be more about class than merely ethnicity, for example, the minzu are thought of as dirty, or tricky, or ignorant, no different than racial /ethnic clashes elsewhere.

                You are correct about the Hui, but also, the uighurs are a new project in light of the One Road policy, no different than around the world as other nations grapple with the muslim integration issue, but also, Xinjiang peoples are scattered far and wide in the western provinces, and thriving in some cases due to businesses and alliances with other muslim nations.

                While some have said that ~internment~ education and restructuring camps are inhumane way to solve real world problems of integration and to stabilize potentially disruptive populations, we see that the US/Britain /FVEYs solved its muslim problem by murdering hundreds of thousands of them in the last decades, and selectively targets and assasinates patriarchs and leaders.

                So, perhaps the Chinese solution is more humane in the end.

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                • icon
                  Scary Devil Monastery (profile), 13 Jan 2020 @ 2:28am

                  Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

                  "You are simply not correct in your assertions about Tibetans en masse or otherwise, because they are a relatively new influx of migrants."

                  Tibetans (Sherpa, Lhoba, Monpa and Tamang, at least) have lived in Tibet for how long now? If you're talking about the Han and Hui living in tibet you'd be right - they're new migrants. It takes a very special case of dishonesty to make the claim that a regions native population should be considered "new migrants" because it was conquered by the neighboring country 70 years ago.

                  "One of my business partners in China is Tibetan, and he is doing just fine, fully integrated at both the local, and party levels with the Han-his guanxi is excellent, and runs a successful business (he was,educated at USC )."

                  We're not talking about the token exception, we're talking about the way most tibetans aren't integrated and as result subjected to arbitrary arrests and abuse by chinese law enforcement. Why would you need to mention your example was "fully integrated with the Han"? Answer; Because if he was merely a skilled entrepreneur and law-abiding businessman his business in China wouldn't be off the ground.

                  "... these clashes tend to be more about class than merely ethnicity, for example, the minzu are thought of as dirty, or tricky, or ignorant, no different than racial /ethnic clashes elsewhere."

                  In other words, dictionary-definiton racism. Change the word "minzu" for "black" or "jewish", in europe for "Rom", or in 18th century USA, "Chinese".
                  So your comment confirms that racism is endemic.

                  I often run into this when talking to Chinese - and Danes, ironically; "Surely it's not racism to consider <ethnicity X> inferior when they so clearly are?".

                  It's just cognitive dissonance taken to the extreme when either of the above examples fails to realize that holding the "outsider" to be inherently inferior is, in fact, the core idea of racist ideology.

                  "...the uighurs are a new project in light of the One Road policy, no different than around the world as other nations grapple with the muslim integration issue..."

                  Oh, stop. There are plenty of muslim minorities in China - like the hui - who do just fine. China has been abusing the uighur for centuries and the real reason for that is because the uighur political movements often consider the uighur to be turk, rather than chinese. Currently the preponderance of the evidence states that what goes on in Xinjiang falls under the dictionary-definition of ethnic cleansing, with the torture, killing and abuse that connotates.

                  "While some have said that ~internment~ education and restructuring camps are inhumane way..."

                  Torture, abuse, rape? Yes, it's inhumane. Granted, if you torture everyone within a generation into cowed blind obedience you will have laid a groundwork of fear and obedience within the entire ethnicity. Feasible, but a solution straight from the book of a cruel leadership Wise people would avoid doing business with.

                  "...we see that the US/Britain /FVEYs solved its muslim problem by murdering hundreds of thousands of them in the last decades, and selectively targets and assasinates patriarchs and leaders."

                  The fact that western nations have lost their moral ground more often than not in wars and the aftermath of wars is NOT tantamount to giving china a pass where we don't give one to the US. The US today still lives with the fact that as far as face is concerned they haven't had any since Iran-Contras. China is today laying the groundwork for never being respected by the international community because they are running, in smaller scale, and endlösung for the Uighur problem.

                  "So, perhaps the Chinese solution is more humane in the end."

                  No. eradicating the current generation in the hope the next generation will grow up integrated is NOT humane. It's a solution following the footsteps of emperor Yang Guang, not those of Han guangwudi.

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  • identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 7 Jan 2020 @ 7:04am

    and how did they find the books on the shelf?

    by searching for them?

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

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    identicon
    Salvatore Mundi, 7 Jan 2020 @ 7:06am

    Yes, its censorship when “they ” request it, but good luck finding good Nazi websites in Norway without getting your internet connection mobbed by the FVEYs, and redirected into bizarre inet back alley muggings.

    Norway, (home to the whitest people on earth ), has no claims to being free speech advocates either.

    gazing into my fake Palantir, which is specially designed to attract Chinese 富二代 bidders

    It says Wealthy second generation.
    富有的第二代 kiddies all realize that the next 100 years belongs to them.

    And, Falun Gongs founder was/is a tax dodger who fucked a lot of people, and a total G.W.B. era CIA plant, from seed to flower, so theres that....

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    • identicon
      Anonymous Coward, 7 Jan 2020 @ 7:59am

      Re:

      And, Falun Gongs founder was/is a tax dodger who fucked a lot of people, and a total G.W.B. era CIA plant, from seed to flower, so theres that....

      <huge non-Chinese citation needed>

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      • identicon
        China Bias, 7 Jan 2020 @ 8:25pm

        Re: Re:

        Is it racism, or something else that causes you to look down upon China, and the Chinese?

        And since when are Chinese sources unnacceptable?

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        • icon
          Wendy Cockcroft (profile), 8 Jan 2020 @ 5:56am

          Re: Re: Re:

          Good Nazi websites and he calls himself "Saviour of the world."

          Flag and move on, people.

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            identicon
            Deacon Sermonizer, 8 Jan 2020 @ 8:59am

            Re: Re: Re: Re:

            Ms. Cock...cock...(checking church roster ) Ms. Cockcroft, I am still awaiting your response to my query, over five threads, spanning two weeks, about how YOU believe in a faith based approach to problem solving.

            And, you still have not provided an explanation of what your personal faith based rationale is, exactly.

            So, once again, I ask you:

            What is your opinion about the "coincidence” of:

            • footage of Bigfoot and Nessie are always, ALWAYS fuzzy

            • Bigfoot hair samples are fuzzy

            • the Shroud of Turins provenance, also is fuzzy

            • faith based approaches to facts are also fuzzy

            And might I add, you are a bit fuzzy also, having consistently dodged answering the direct question posed to you, over five TD threads, about your fuzzy logic and faith -based approach to scientific /sociological inquiry.

            I smell sauerkraut, despite the Anglican nym.

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            • icon
              Wendy Cockcroft (profile), 9 Jan 2020 @ 3:38am

              Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

              my query, over five threads, spanning two weeks, about how YOU believe in a faith based approach to problem solving.

              I didn't notice it, and no, I believe in an evidence-based approach to problem-solving. My job depends on it. If I resorted to faith-based approaches at work, it'd cause all sorts of problems.

              And, you still have not provided an explanation of what your personal faith based rationale is, exactly.

              I'm not obliged to.

              What is your opinion about the "coincidence” of:

              footage of Bigfoot and Nessie are always, ALWAYS fuzzy

              Bigfoot hair samples are fuzzy

              the Shroud of Turins provenance, also is fuzzy

              They're all fakes, that's why.

              And might I add, you are a bit fuzzy also, having consistently dodged answering the direct question posed to you, over five TD threads, about your fuzzy logic and faith -based approach to scientific /sociological inquiry.

              Whatever.

              I smell sauerkraut, despite the Anglican nym.

              Whatever. I didn't spot your questions, which may have been because your comments were either tl:dr; or hidden by the community. Even if I had, though, what exactly do I owe you and why? You're rude. That's disincentivising, right there. You also have a view of me that's unsupported by my conduct. Disagreeing with you doesn't a) mean I owe you anything or b) that I'm anything you say I am. Now run along. Any attempt to continue this conversation will be ignored.

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            • icon
              bhull242 (profile), 10 Jan 2020 @ 1:11am

              Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

              I just looked through just about every thread over the past two weeks and I cannot find any of the five threads which you allege contain you asking this question. As far as I can tell, this is the first time you’ve brought this up.

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        • icon
          bhull242 (profile), 9 Jan 2020 @ 10:46pm

          Re: Re: Re:

          It’s an anti-authoritarian bent, and it’s hardly exclusive to China or the Chinese. We have the same issues with Russian, North Korean, or Iranian sources. As far as we know, it’s just propaganda. And for the record, a Japanese or South Korean source would be more acceptable, so it’s not racism.

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    • identicon
      Rocky, 7 Jan 2020 @ 9:08am

      False equivalence is the hallmark of a troll

      Are you seriously comparing nazi-shit to Falun Gong-literature the authoritarian Chinese government finds inconvenient because Jiang Zemin thought they where a threat to the Communist Party and also a convenient scapegoat to redirect questions from his poor leadership in the end of the 90's?

      Either you are just a dishonest asshole or a stupid racist. Or perhaps both.

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      • icon
        Scary Devil Monastery (profile), 8 Jan 2020 @ 2:16am

        Re: False equivalence is the hallmark of a troll

        "Are you seriously comparing nazi-shit to Falun Gong-literature the authoritarian Chinese government finds inconvenient because Jiang Zemin thought they where a threat to the Communist Party and also a convenient scapegoat to redirect questions from his poor leadership in the end of the 90's?"

        I do believe he is, indeed.

        "Either you are just a dishonest asshole or a stupid racist. Or perhaps both."

        Irrespective of his motive what is clear is that he starts out using a false analogy to launch a whataboutist rant with the sole intent of marginalizing Norway's role as a defender of free speech.

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    • icon
      Wyrm (profile), 7 Jan 2020 @ 9:16am

      Re:

      You know, tax dodging is indeed bad, as is messing with people lives.

      On a totally unrelated subject, what do you think of Trump, Bezos and a few others of the american "rich and famous"?

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    • identicon
      Anonymous Coward, 7 Jan 2020 @ 9:48am

      Re:

      It’s uncanny how you continually provide the answer to the racist question no one asked bro.

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      • identicon
        Anonymous Coward, 7 Jan 2020 @ 11:05am

        Re: Re:

        Is it a script kiddie?

        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

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        identicon
        Bro, 8 Jan 2020 @ 6:56am

        Re: Re:

        Its uncanny how you use bro as a racist, sexist pejorative.

        Even more bizarre is that you direct it at a commenter that defends Chinese interests, while clearly repudiating people like you.

        I mean, unless your a bot, or one of Thads scripts running here.

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        • icon
          bhull242 (profile), 9 Jan 2020 @ 10:56pm

          Re: Re: Re:

          Its uncanny how you use bro as a racist, sexist pejorative.

          I can see sexist, maybe, though it’s not clear that they’re using “bro” as a pejorative at all (it’s actually pretty commonly used neutrally in American English). What I don’t understand is how it could possibly be a racist pejorative. And I also don’t understand what’s so strange about it; I see it used all the time.

          Even more bizarre is that you direct it at a commenter that defends Chinese interests, while clearly repudiating people like you.

          I really don’t understand what’s strange about that. Like I said, it’s a pretty commonly used term—one that isn’t even necessarily insulting at all, even. Are you new to the internet or something? Or the English language? Do you not know what bro means?

          Also, the commentor did a poor job of repudiating anyone. All I see is a whataboutism and false equivalence.

          I mean, unless your a bot, or one of Thads scripts running here.

          You posted the same comment twice, and you’re accusing them of being a bot?

          reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

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        Bro, 8 Jan 2020 @ 7:00am

        Re: Re:

        Its uncanny how you use bro as a racist, sexist pejorative while projecting your own racism on others.

        Even more bizarre is that you direct it at a commenter that defends Chinese interests, and has expressed shitloads of cultural knowledge beyond your comprehension, while clearly repudiating people like you.

        I mean, unless your a bot, or one of Thads scripts running here.

        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • identicon
      Anonymous Coward, 7 Jan 2020 @ 12:34pm

      Re: two falls and a leg

      You know what the most hilarious about this is?

      Even if that was true?

      You put people in jail for reading about it.

      So even then your arguments just like your containment protocols.

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • icon
      Uriel-238 (profile), 7 Jan 2020 @ 1:21pm

      Nazi websites

      Denmark is where Nazi propaganda (both modern and classical) has a voice and the occasional public showing in a cinema. It's also home of the mixed-results cartoons of Muhammad experiment (which ultimately concluded blasphemous art is in bad taste, but it's wrong to get violent over it.)

      Norway may have more restrictions than Denmark, but I suspect fewer restrictions than the US or Japan

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

      • identicon
        Salvatore Mundi, 7 Jan 2020 @ 3:52pm

        Re: Nazi websites

        Interestingly, Danish “chestnut-fed ”pork is selling all over China right now at nearly three times the price of the domestic, and the Prince has made a few visits, touting the fact that both countries are socialist.

        So, how the (non -racist, non -supremacist ) issue of race is getting a makeover, is driven in part due to shared ideological goals, but also because business is good for non -racists who dont wear their race on their sleeves.

        Hitler laughing to himself about how some people wear their race on their sleeve (mostly racists ), cuz, profitable in a little violin sort of way

        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 7 Jan 2020 @ 7:45am

    The increasing economic, political, and military power of China is evident.

    Past performance is not indicative of future results. China's economy, and the demographic realities that drive that economy, are looking really ugly and trending further downward right now.

    Remember back in the early 90s, when everyone was worried about Japanese dominance right before their economy fell off a cliff and never recovered? If you know what to look for, China is looking a whole lot now like Japan did then. (And don't think that the people in power in China don't know it's coming. Why do you think they've spent so much time and effort over the past decade consolidating power? Because they know they're about to need it!)

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • identicon
      Anonymous Coward, 7 Jan 2020 @ 11:06am

      Re:

      Time to move on to the next country on the target list, gotta keep those manufacturing costs down ya know.

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • icon
      Scary Devil Monastery (profile), 8 Jan 2020 @ 2:22am

      Re:

      "If you know what to look for, China is looking a whole lot now like Japan did then."

      There's one significant difference. China has specialized itself in being the biggest competency pool catering to foreign manufacturing needs. Japan tanked because they primarily linked their industry to their in-house production - which went bellyup when even Toyota and Mitsubishi started outsourcing their plants.

      China is facing problems but the only thing that could properly tank their industrial cornerstone is if the west suddenly rebuilds it's in-house production ability. Which doesn't seem like it'll happen anytime soon.

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • icon
    NoahVail (profile), 7 Jan 2020 @ 10:35am

    Chinatologists

    The skiers remind me of devout religious acolytes, from one of the faiths that compulsively overreact to criticism.

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 7 Jan 2020 @ 11:32am

    I do know what the fulan gong is but I do not know anything about their banned literature.

    They are a form of Chinese Nazi and a cult like religious practice supporting it. They are responsible for torture, slavery, genocide, and mass murders.

    Not everyone knows exactly what it is when they support it.

    There is overlap with al Qaeda and the Islamic state.

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • identicon
      Rocky, 7 Jan 2020 @ 2:55pm

      ^_^´

      This Chinese state-sponsored troll is so bad, can someone please give him a Chinese finger-puzzle to stop him from typing more stupid things?

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • icon
      Scary Devil Monastery (profile), 8 Jan 2020 @ 2:23am

      Re:

      ...and someone just earned himself 50 cents, looks like.

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • icon
      Wendy Cockcroft (profile), 8 Jan 2020 @ 6:00am

      Re: Falun Gong

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falun_Gong

      It's a harmless branch of Buddhism that emphasizes morality and initially had state support. However, if officers of the state behave badly and the FG followers call them out for it, I can imagine why they'd see it as a threat.

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

      • This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it
        identicon
        Anonymous Coward, 8 Jan 2020 @ 4:14pm

        Re: Re: Falun Gong

        :cough:
        holocaust, slavery, Cambodian genocide, torture
        :cough:

        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

        • identicon
          Rocky, 8 Jan 2020 @ 8:02pm

          Re: Re: Re: Falun Gong

          You weren't supposed to swallow the Chinese finger-puzzle! Bad troll!!

          But I guess I should have expected it since all the signs of terminal stupidity was pretty obvious...

          reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

        • icon
          Scary Devil Monastery (profile), 10 Jan 2020 @ 2:31am

          Re: Re: Re: Falun Gong

          "holocaust, slavery, Cambodian genocide, torture"

          I don't know what's worse. That some troll decides to try to link the nazi holocaust, american institution of slavery, the khmer rouge of cambodia and generic torture to a pacifist buddhist ideology, or that said post still hasn't amassed enough flags to get it hidden after several days...

          reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

          • identicon
            Anonymous Coward, 13 Jan 2020 @ 12:09am

            Re: Re: Re: Re: Falun Gong

            Personally I've been trying to get people to flag all of blue ball's comments on the Nunes thread. Thanks to all the attention he's been sending there that's sort of worked...

            reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

            • icon
              Scary Devil Monastery (profile), 13 Jan 2020 @ 2:32am

              Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Falun Gong

              "Personally I've been trying to get people to flag all of blue ball's comments on the Nunes thread. "

              I don't think this is Blue/Jhon/Bobmail we're talking about. More likely a chinese troll trying to conflate Falun Gong with torture and Cambodia.

              If it had been Blue he'd be claiming copyright infringement was the cause of Cambodia's murder regime under the Khmer Rouge. Or otherwise trying to link pirates to torture and slavery.

              reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

              • identicon
                Anonymous Coward, 13 Jan 2020 @ 11:01am

                Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Falun Gong

                some people aren't that bright, no one is conflating anything but you

                reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

                • icon
                  Scary Devil Monastery (profile), 14 Jan 2020 @ 1:24am

                  Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Falun Gong

                  "some people aren't that bright, no one is conflating anything but you"

                  So what you're trying to sell us is that a pacifist buddhist movement such as Falun Gong is, in reality, responsible for torture, slavery, and the Cambodian massacre after all?

                  I'm afraid the only one losing face on this thread would be you and the rest of the 50-cent army. Hamfisted propaganda is just that - hamfisted and not credible.

                  reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

                  • identicon
                    Anonymous Coward, 15 Jan 2020 @ 7:51pm

                    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Falun Gong

                    Moron

                    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

                    • icon
                      Scary Devil Monastery (profile), 16 Jan 2020 @ 7:18am

                      Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Falun Gong

                      "Moron"

                      Indeed you are, thank you for noticing.

                      Here, try to tell everyone why Falun gong would be responsible for the holocaust, slavery, and the cambodian massacres once more. I don't think we got any vcitations from you why this would be the case.

                      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

                      • identicon
                        Anonymous Coward, 16 Jan 2020 @ 10:17am

                        Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Falun Gong

                        Talking to you is like explaining to someone that Al Qaeda and associated forces did 9/11.

                        They wrote a law, they made a name, falun gong was notable involved in described events, a big swastika was used as there symbol so everyone understands and a bhuddist religious excuse is convincing you it's all legal.

                        MORON

                        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

                        • icon
                          bhull242 (profile), 16 Jan 2020 @ 1:19pm

                          Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Falun Gong

                          The Buddhists were using that symbol long before the Nazis were, so the use of the swastika by a group of Buddhists is not evidence of wrongful intent (in fact, in most of eastern Asia, people don’t really associate the swastika (or the similar symbol of the manji) with Nazis or white supremacy at all). Also, you can’t use Falun Gong’s alleged involvement in “described events” as evidence of anything without actually describing the events in some fashion. (And, of course, we’d need evidence of its involvement, too.) For all I know, “described events” could merely consist of writing books critical of the Chinese government or engaging in peaceful protest that would be perfectly lawful here. And there isn’t exactly anything wrong with “writing a law” or “making a name,” particularly if we’re dealing with a religious group or a group of activists. So even if what you just said is true, I see nothing worthy of condemnation there.

                          And even if what you said was both true and worthy of condemnation, none of that has anything to do with the Holocaust, slavery, or the Cambodian Massacre, or al Qaeda for that matter.

                          With al Qaeda, they took credit for multiple terrorist attacks that cost thousands of innocent people their lives, there is clear and convincing evidence denied by no one (other than some conspiracy theorists) that al Qaeda planned out the attacks, and no one (outside some conspiracy theorists) have denied that the specific persons identified as having carried out the attack actually did so or that they are/were actual members of al Qaeda. Additionally, al Qaeda and related terrorists have committed or attempted to commit their wrongful deeds in America, much of Europe, and a number of other areas, many of which are widely reported globally, so the average person commenting on an American website in English is going to be well familiar with their misdeeds.

                          By contrast, as far as I can tell, Falun Gong’s activities have been restricted to China, and they haven’t been widely reported. Most people, especially outside of China, are largely unfamiliar with Falun Gong. I had never even heard of it prior to this article. And other commenters who are familiar with him clearly don’t know or believe that it’s done anything worse than upset the Chinese government somehow. Therefore, without some specific evidence with citations, you can’t really expect most people to know of or believe in any atrocities that Falun Gong is allegedly responsible for, involved in, or connected to. It’s nowhere near as well known or widely accepted as the atrocities committed by al Qaeda, ISIS, or the Taliban. Falun Gong isn’t exactly a household name, nor have their actions or words had any appreciable effect on people in the Western Hemisphere. When people think of the Holocaust, slavery, or the Cambodian massacre, I doubt they think of Falun Gong.

                          So yeah, in short, you failed to offer any sufficient evidence or reasoning to draw the conclusions you want us to, and your assumption of the obviousness or well-known-ness of your claims is simply false and baseless.

                          reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

                          • identicon
                            Anonymous Coward, 16 Jan 2020 @ 1:59pm

                            Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Falun Gong

                            Absolute, Terroristic, Moron

                            reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

                            • icon
                              bhull242 (profile), 16 Jan 2020 @ 4:25pm

                              Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Falun Gong

                              How so? All I did was point out how insufficient your argument is.

                              reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

                              • identicon
                                Anonymous Coward, 16 Jan 2020 @ 8:52pm

                                Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Falun Go

                                All I did was point out how insufficient your fallacious argument is by accenting it with the word moron.

                                reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

                                • icon
                                  bhull242 (profile), 17 Jan 2020 @ 10:11am

                                  Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Falu

                                  You did not. For one thing, the only thing you did was call me names. You did not say anything about what I actually said. Namecalling isn’t an argument.

                                  Also, you failed to explain how my argument was either fallacious or insufficient. Besides, the burden of proof is on you, here, so I don’t really need to do much if you don’t offer any proof. If you want to say my arguments are fallacious, insufficient, or moronic, at least explain how so I can address any shortcomings. I offered you the same courtesy, after all.

                                  Finally, while calling me a moron might possibly imply that my argument was insufficient, saying I am “terroristic” has no possible connection to mere insufficiency or fallaciousness of an argument. I’m curious how anything I said could possibly be construed as terroristic or implying that I’m terroristic.

                                  In short, I’m asking you to explain how my arguments are insufficient, fallacious, and/or moronic and how you would justify calling me or my comment “terroristic”, specifically.

                                  reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

                                  • identicon
                                    Anonymous Coward, 17 Jan 2020 @ 11:39am

                                    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

                                    You put forward several insert similar blah blah blah word salad fallacious arguments here. The burden of proof is on you.

                                    I know what I said is true.

                                    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

                                    • icon
                                      bhull242 (profile), 20 Jan 2020 @ 9:11pm

                                      Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

                                      That’s not an argument. Especially not, “I know what I said is true,” which explains nothing at all.

                                      And actually, the burden of proof is on you to prove your original claims. That’s what that so-called “word salad” you refer to boils down to: you offered nothing in support of your claims, so we have no reason to accept them. That’s basically all I said.

                                      Also, since “that argument is fallacious” and “that argument is terroristic” are also positive claims, the burden of proof is on you to prove those claims as well.

                                      I don’t think you understand how the burden of proof works. You made a claim, so you have to prove it. If you make an argument that I think is invalid or unsound in some way, I have to explain specifically what’s wrong with it (which I have). If you have a problem with my argument (not claims), then you have to explain why it’s wrong.

                                      I also don’t think you understand what a “word salad” is.

                                      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • identicon
    bobob, 7 Jan 2020 @ 1:52pm

    Good luck with that.

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • identicon
    Hephaestus, 8 Jan 2020 @ 5:30am

    Quick question ... How do they know these books are banned in China?

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • identicon
      Rocky, 8 Jan 2020 @ 7:56am

      Re:

      You do know that anything Falun-Gong is proscribed in China, right?

      It started with the banning of Zhuan Falun (the book containing the teachings) in 1996 and in 1999 everything Falun Gong was banned and it's member persecuted. It's not like the Chinese Party has kept it secret in any way.

      If you know a little about how the Chinese Communist Party operates this wouldn't come as an surprise, they always have gone after groups that they see as disruptive to their rule.

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it
    identicon
    Wendy Cockblock, 9 Jan 2020 @ 9:04am

    re: my weight plan, and consequences for that snack

    Well, the Chineses, blah, blah blah.

    Wendy Cockblock: "And, faith based approaches always work best, when WE can get away with it *.

    But dont ever say I said that out loud, or else, the fat lady sings!

    Blahblahblah.

    Chinas best kept seekrit: they dont give a fuck about any of your biased, racist, fat lady/fag /JTRIG/ADL sponsored opinions.

    Please,

    STAY AWAY!

    China is doing just fine WITHOUT you. And your opinions are just racist, ignorant, pseudo -patriotic, jingoistic slander, for the most part.

    snuggling a (not fat, white, cow -faced ) gorgeous beauty in my arms now, as my daughter (who routinely scores at the top of her class ) and her mother sleep, like Angels.

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • icon
      Uriel-238 (profile), 9 Jan 2020 @ 12:16pm

      I'm developing a prejudice against large fonts.

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

      • icon
        bhull242 (profile), 9 Jan 2020 @ 11:01pm

        Re: I'm developing a prejudice against large fonts.

        Agreed

        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

      • identicon
        R/O/G/Sish, 10 Jan 2020 @ 10:51pm

        Re: I'm developing a prejudice against relgious cock blockers .

        I have a well known bias against religious shitbags who use the names of mythical angels, and cockblock critical thinking, while posing as “center left liberals ”.

        And, the do-nothing wing of the neo -establishment echo chamber and its gatekeepers for that matter.

        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

        • icon
          Uriel-238 (profile), 11 Jan 2020 @ 3:58pm

          It seems to be a common phenomenon on these forums

          Boy howdy, do you have me pegged wrong.

          But yes, if you feel I am unnegotiable, feel free to not respond to my posts.

          reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

        • icon
          bhull242 (profile), 11 Jan 2020 @ 5:29pm

          Re: Re: I'm developing a prejudice against relgious cock blocker

          Wait. Uriel-238 says he’s a center-left liberal? Man, I didn’t get that impression at all. Same with him being religious. Although, coming from someone who referred to themselves with a Latin phrases meaning “Savior of the World”, you probably shouldn’t be throwing the first stone when it comes to names with religious undertones.

          reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • icon
      bhull242 (profile), 9 Jan 2020 @ 11:01pm

      Re: re: my weight plan, and consequences for that snack

      Let us know when you have a better grasp on the English language (including but not limited to spelling, grammar, capitalization, punctuation, and what words mean), logic, and reality. Some modicum of politeness would also be nice, but I’m not holding my breath. I’d be happy to just be able to understand what you’re talking about.

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • identicon
    Salvatore Mundi, 10 Jan 2020 @ 10:46pm

    ok, easy on the bold, huh?

    Hull, in your own words, on multiple occasions spanning weeks, you have repeatedly shown an inability to grasp even the most basic words and concepts, much less respond to them.

    I repeat:

    you have admitted complete ignorance about the most basic, in posting after posting things regarding:

    • CVE Programs of manufactured terrorism

    • complete ignorance of the language, purpose, and scope of influence operations

    • complete ignorance about basic public relations

    • even the most basic facts of the term incel, and its connection to the LGBT community( considering that it was started by an LGBT woman, and the “community ” largely LGBT as well

    • zero knowledge of what demonstrative speech even is

    • what is a Hotep /etc.

    *much more (far too much to list herein -anyone can read your comment history for that information )

    Have a nice day. And maybe, get out more. That basement must be stuffy.

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • icon
      bhull242 (profile), 11 Jan 2020 @ 6:46pm

      Re: ok, easy on the bold, huh?

      Let’s see…

      CVE Programs of manufactured terrorism

      I don’t know the details, no, but I only expressed ignorance regarding that specific term. I’m largely familiar with the concept (though it may not correspond to what you mean), but I always heard it referred to as counterterrorism, not CVE. So that’s not complete ignorance. And why you couldn’t have explained this is completely beyond me.

      Also, when most people are trying to warn/inform people about counterterrorism/CVE programs, they try to explain more about the what and how than you have. Otherwise, you might as well say, “The government is overreaching,” as it’d be just about as informative. Be specific.

      complete ignorance of the language, purpose, and scope of influence operations

      I’m not entirely sure which “influence operations” you’re referring to (there are many working at cross or unrelated purposes), so I cannot say anything about the purpose or scope, including what knowledge I have of those things. As for language, again, I don’t know what you’re referring to by that, so I can neither confirm nor deny that, but I’d also note that there’s nothing unusual about lacking knowledge of such.

      At a guess, if you’re talking about covert operatives attempting to use online resources to influence people (which is still broad as there are many competing people, governments, and organizations trying to do that), isn’t this whole thing supposed to be warning us about the scope of the operation anyway? Why do I need to have prior knowledge when this whole thing is about letting everyone know about these in the first place? And I still don’t know what terms would fall under “the language […] of influence operations”.

      complete ignorance about basic public relations

      I literally have no idea what you’re referring to here. I’m familiar with the basics of public relations (most of which are basically common sense), but I don’t recall public relations being at issue here.

      One thing I can tell you is that telling someone to kill themselves is generally considered bad PR.

      even the most basic facts of the term incel, and its connection to the LGBT community( considering that it was started by an LGBT woman, and the “community ” largely LGBT as well

      I already explained what an incel is. In simple terms, it’s someone who is a virgin and desires sex and/or romance but can’t get anyone to date or have sex with them. Often they blame their targets and have a bloated opinion of their appeal, but that may or may not be required. The community also has some links to misogyny, MRAs, and PUAs, though there are plenty of those people who aren’t incels and vice versa. They are pretty much the opposite of a MGTOW, who have decided of their own volition to avoid romantic or sexual relations with the opposite sex. Voluntary celibates, noncelibate married persons, sexually activer persons, asexuals, and prepubescent children are generally or always not considered incels. Gender, gender identity, and sexual orientation are not determinative factors in whether or not someone is an incel or part of the incel community (which aren’t quite the same thing since not all incels are part of the incel community for social or technological reasons); however, the community is heavily dominated by heterosexual cismen and nearly all member of the community are attracted to women. Incels have a number of slang terms, some of which are also used by PUAs and/or MRAs, though again there are differences. (For example, I believe that women (or at least target women) are referred to as “Sues”, though I could be wrong about that.)

      Additionally, thanks to an article that you provided, I’m aware that the first community of incels that would become the modern incel community was started by a lesbian. (Though that’s not a basic fact.) However, that same article makes it crystal clear that the incel community is not and never has been mostly made up of LGBTQ people (as noted earlier, most have been heterosexual cismales since very early on), and I do not consider the sexual orientation and gender of the “first incel” to be a strong connection between the incel and LGBTQ community.

      That first paragraph was all stuff I knew off the top of my head, by the way, while the second is entirely from an article you provided as evidence multiple times (along with my opinion) and I never disputed that particular claim. I just never considered it important. So I have no idea why you think I’ve ever admitted ignorance to any of that aside from the founder of the incel community, and even that was just once, after which I never disputed or confessed ignorance on that point. I even explicitly acknowledged it on more than one occasion. This point is the furthest from the truth.

      zero knowledge of what demonstrative speech even is

      First off, the only other time that came up was the last time you said I admitted ignorance on the topic, and I never said I was unfamiliar with the term.

      For the record, it’s essentially where you explain how to do things by giving instructions or details. Essentially, it’s a how-to speech. Again, this has never been talked about here, I never expressed any ignorance about it, and I have no idea how it’s remotely related to literally anything that’s been talked about by anyone here.

      what is a Hotep

      I did acknowledge not knowing the term, but it only came up a few times, and I never actually asked about it because I didn’t think it was important. Again, is it that hard to explain? And why in the world would you think that’s a basic concept?

      So of the things you assert I confessed ignorance of multiple times, the first was just over the term used, as I’m already familiar with the broad concept; the second I’m unsure what you’re referring to specifically, so I don’t even know if I’ve confessed ignorance about it; the third is both wrong and was never even discussed; the fourth is completely wrong; the fifth is wrong and irrelevant; and the last is true, but it’s hardly common vernacular, and it’s not like you ever tried explaining it in the first place.

      In fact, excluding the alleged incel-LGBT connection, which I’ve already addressed, of the things you just listed, the only one you’ve attempted to explain at all before this post was CVE, and even that was just by explaining what the acronym stands for (though I have a slightly better idea now). And the only other thing I’ve expressed any ignorance on that you explained with any detail at all was the ADLification, though I did have some follow-up questions, like how it applies to Techdirt and what evidence you have of that. K4, the very first thing I expressed ignorance on, has still not been explained at all other than what it stands for.

      Additionally, most of these (like Hotep) are not exactly basic. And as for being “unable to grasp” them, you’ve never tried to explain them. If you want to be an activist, you have to be able to explain what you mean to people unfamiliar with your cause or some of the vernacular you use. Learn how to handle questions like this (again, some basic PR).

      I consider knowing my limits and being willing to ask for help when needed to be the essence of wisdom. I am aware of my flaws, and I acknowledge when I’m wrong. I’m not saying I’m wise (I’m still working on that), but I do seem to be doing a better job than you are.

      Finally, the post I think you’re responding to was a joke. It does contains some exaggeration. Don’t take it too seriously.

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]


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