Australian Attorney General Wants To Make The Country's Defamation Law Even Worse

from the if-it's-already-broke-just-keep-breaking-it dept

Australia's government is planning to revamp its defamation law. Good. Because it's all kinds of fucked up. The law that's in place has encouraged all sorts of litigation from people who would prefer to sue service providers and social media platforms, rather than the people who actually said defamatory things.

But it's unclear what sort of reform the government actually has in mind. Australia's Attorney General Christian Porter says the country's defamation law is "unfair." It's certainly not a good law, but Porter thinks it doesn't strike a "perfect balance" between protecting journalists from being hit with bogus lawsuits and protecting individuals from being defamed.

He's right. The law doesn't strike the right balance. But he's wrong about how to fix it. Very wrong.

Attorney-General Christian Porter says social media platforms should be treated the same as traditional publishers under defamation law, a change that would present a fundamental new challenge for global companies such as Facebook and Twitter.

It appears Porter believes the playing field can only be leveled by dragging social media platforms down to the level of local journalists the law fails to protect. This is Porter's idea of "fairness," apparently. If the law is going to continue to suck, it should suck for more people.

Despite the fact that social media platforms don't actually "publish" anything, Porter wants to treat Facebook, et al like newspapers. In Porter's mind, anything posted by users apparently should be vetted and fact-checked and edited by social media platforms before it goes live. You know, like a newspaper.

Of course, this is impossible and Porter knows it. So, "reforming" the law just means making it easier for bad faith litigation to proceed, allowing actual defamers to escape punishment while judgments and fees are extracted from American social media companies. Porter is pretty sure this is the right thing to do, even as he admits he has no idea if it even can be done.

"My own view ... is that online platforms, so far as reasonably possible, should be held to essentially the same standards as other publishers," Mr Porter told an audience at the National Press Club.

"But you have to, of course, take into account, reasonable, sensible measures for how you do that ... because of the volume of what goes on in Twitter and Facebook is much larger than the volume from a standard newspaper."

Saying that "the volume of what goes on in Twitter and Facebook is much larger than that the volume from a standard newspaper" is such an understatement as to suggest that Porter has absolutely no familiarity with the issue at hand. Comparing the two is like saying the volume of Niagra Falls is larger than a leaky sink. Yes, they both involve water moving downward, but that's about the extent of the comparison. Saying that the volume from one is "much larger" than the other leaves out just how much larger. Indeed, it's so much larger that there literally is no reasonable comparison. Yet, he chose to make it anyway.

The AG's defamation law "fix" appears to be a response to a NSW Supreme Court decision handed down earlier this year -- one that held Australian press outlets legally responsible for defamatory comments made by readers on the outlets' Facebook pages. But rather than improve the law to protect press outlets, AG Porter just wants to make it worse for social media companies.

How this is supposed to fix anything is anyone's guess. Maybe the Attorney General feels the country's court system just isn't seeing enough bogus litigation. Whatever the case, this reform effort by the Australian government appears poised to make things worse for Australians and everyone who provides a platform for them.

Filed Under: australia, christian porter, defamation, free speech, intermediary liability, liability, platform, publisher
Companies: facebook, twitter


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  • icon
    Samuel Abram (profile), 26 Nov 2019 @ 10:46am

    I guess this means that…

    I guess this means that nobody could put up a website in Australia because the costs of liability are too high…

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      identicon
      Anonymous Coward, 26 Nov 2019 @ 11:40am

      Re: I guess this means that…

      Yet many do just that even now without Section 230. Amazing.

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      • icon
        Stephen T. Stone (profile), 26 Nov 2019 @ 11:49am

        It’s almost as if negligible liability costs aren’t a thing preventing people from putting up their own websites~. And it's almost as if raising such costs would become a deterrent for legal yet potentially offensive speech~. Imagine that~.

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        • identicon
          Anonymous Coward, 26 Nov 2019 @ 11:57am

          Re:

          Do you think Jhon ever gets tired of being punked by you and the rest of the regulars?
          I personally think he gets off on being reprimanded by a stern but caring authoritarian figure like he’s a naughty eight year old drawing on the walls.

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            identicon
            Anonymous Coward, 26 Nov 2019 @ 12:46pm

            Re: Re:

            This is the "ad hominem" debate fallacy. Sign of an amateur writer.

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            • identicon
              Anonymous Coward, 26 Nov 2019 @ 12:55pm

              Re: Re: Re:

              Damn bro. That one hurt. Hit a bit too close to home I’d reckon.

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            • icon
              Stephen T. Stone (profile), 26 Nov 2019 @ 1:14pm

              You’re just upset that you’re not as good at insults as the rest of us. 😁

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                identicon
                Anonymous Coward, 27 Nov 2019 @ 5:48am

                Re:

                You’re just upset that you’re not as good at insults as the rest of us

                Proud of one's ability to verbally abuse others while hiding behind a monitor and a name that doesn't turn up much anywhere but here...yeah you "win."

                I hear Elaina admires you a lot!!

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                • icon
                  Stephen T. Stone (profile), 27 Nov 2019 @ 7:28am

                  At least I have the courage — the testicular fortitude, if you will — to slap my name on what I say and stand by it. Your cowardice is dwarfed only by your ignorance.

                  You should see a doctor about your tiny balls, by the way.

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                • icon
                  Samuel Abram (profile), 27 Nov 2019 @ 10:04am

                  Re: Re:

                  Proud of one's ability to verbally abuse others while hiding behind a monitor and a name that doesn't turn up much anywhere but here

                  That's really rich coming from a…*checks notes*…"anonymous coward".

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                • identicon
                  Anonymous Coward, 27 Nov 2019 @ 10:45am

                  Re: Re:

                  What I find funny jhon, is that you chose others for being an AC when you can’t even manage to stay totally anonymous yourself.

                  Isn’t that right Chris?

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      • identicon
        Anonymous Coward, 26 Nov 2019 @ 12:09pm

        Re: Re: I guess this means that…

        That is due to it not being needed. This is a law change to impose liability where it does not exists yet.

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          identicon
          Anonymous Coward, 26 Nov 2019 @ 12:47pm

          Re: Re: Re: I guess this means that…

          Search engines have already been held liable for results under the distributor-liability theory in countries which don't have 230, and in America prior to 230. The liability certainly exists or we wouldn't have needed to immunize it.

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          • icon
            Stephen T. Stone (profile), 26 Nov 2019 @ 1:00pm

            The liability certainly exists or we wouldn't have needed to immunize it.

            Did you ever think there may be a reason for immunizing companies from that liability other than “to personally piss off Jhon Smith”? What am I saying, of course you didn’t.

            A search engine requires that immunity to exist. If a search engine could be held liable for any given content scraped by its spiders, no search engine could ever exist. Google wouldn’t list as much content as it could scrape, but only a pre-screened, pre-approved amount of content. That would make finding sites that sit outside of such pre-screening a much harder task. Would you prefer to have Google scrape only the New York Times and the Washington Post, or would you prefer to have Google scrape everything from NYT to Breitbart to The Root to Vox and let people make up their own minds as to what they want to read?

            Your desire to place distributor liability on search engines would fundamentally alter how the Internet works and what sites people would be more likely to see on a daily basis. For what reason could you possibly want the Internet limited to a handful of sites controlled by rich motherfuckers who absolutely want the Internet turned into a broadcast medium?

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            • icon
              Scary Devil Monastery (profile), 27 Nov 2019 @ 12:53am

              Re:

              "Did you ever think there may be a reason for immunizing companies from that liability other than “to personally piss off Jhon Smith”? What am I saying, of course you didn’t."

              Because in HIS case, that actually IS the reason.
              It's pretty clear, after all this time, that dear old Jhon has a vested interest in google (or any other search engine) being able to collate material which could be seen as unflattering for individuals.

              In other words he thinks it'll be detrimental to him personally if a simple google search on his real name is all it takes for people to realize that whatever fraud he tries to run is untrustworthy.

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          • identicon
            Anonymous Coward, 26 Nov 2019 @ 1:00pm

            Re: Re: Re: Re: I guess this means that…you are still a fuckwi

            I know it’s hard for you to grasp bro. But different countries have different laws.

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          • icon
            Wendy Cockcroft (profile), 27 Nov 2019 @ 2:50am

            Re: Re: Re: Re: I guess this means that…

            Search engines have already been held liable for results under the distributor-liability theory in countries which don't have 230, and in America prior to 230. The liability certainly exists or we wouldn't have needed to immunize it.

            In no way at all does that mean it should. This is going after money rather than the person who posted the defamatory comments. That's why they do it.

            Next time I see you going on about personal responsibility I'm going to fling this in your e-face.

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    • icon
      Bergman (profile), 26 Nov 2019 @ 1:19pm

      Re: I guess this means that…

      Or better still, if the host of a second- or third-party message is liable, perhaps someone should paint an illegal message on the steps of the NSW supreme court's courthouse?

      Even if the host's rules/laws say you can't post it, the fact you were able to post it would make the host liable.

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  • icon
    ECA (profile), 26 Nov 2019 @ 10:56am

    right to be forgotten?

    So..
    Who thinks humans can be perfect..
    Not on this planet..

    So lets forget about that person, and his past.
    Anyone got his birth certificate?? Shredder?? Perfect.

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  • icon
    btr1701 (profile), 26 Nov 2019 @ 11:01am

    Techxit

    I have to wonder at what point all these laws in Europe and Australia-- GDPR, upload filters, defamation liability, etc.-- will make it economically unfeasible for these companies to keep doing business there and we'll see Twitter or Facebook or YouTube just close down all their physical offices and leave, then tell those countries to stick their laws in a deep dark moist place.

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    • identicon
      Anonymous Coward, 26 Nov 2019 @ 11:39am

      Re: Techxit

      Never.

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

      • identicon
        Anonymous Coward, 26 Nov 2019 @ 8:43pm

        Re: Re: Techxit

        Remember when you said Google News would stay in Spain and pay the news companies?

        Worked out in your favor didn't it?

        Oh, right... it didn't!

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    • icon
      Scary Devil Monastery (profile), 27 Nov 2019 @ 12:57am

      Re: Techxit

      "I have to wonder at what point all these laws in Europe and Australia-- GDPR, upload filters, defamation liability, etc.-- will make it economically unfeasible for these companies to keep doing business there and we'll see Twitter or Facebook or YouTube just close down all their physical offices and leave, then tell those countries to stick their laws in a deep dark moist place."

      It's already been happening - see Spain for an example.

      This doesn't mean such services will cease to exist - only that they will in future only be found on the darknet. When Google has to cease operating a search index we'll be left with the only sensible indexing ALSO being one which will happily serve up details on bombmaking, hate speech and CP because the search index will operate completely beyond any and all supervision.

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      • identicon
        Anonymous Coward, 27 Nov 2019 @ 1:12am

        Re: Re: Techxit

        more likely in the future more countries will be on US sanctions lists for trying to export their illegal policies into our country

        Except for the CP of course.... that actually is illegal in the US

        Also, since you're obviously European if you're holding up Spain, your internet might become the darknet in the US just like china is working its way up to atm

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        • icon
          Scary Devil Monastery (profile), 28 Nov 2019 @ 6:42am

          Re: Re: Re: Techxit

          "more likely in the future more countries will be on US sanctions lists for trying to export their illegal policies into our country"

          Unlikely. The tricky bit here is that no "exporting" is done. The EU may implement any number of insane regulations on how the internet may or may not work and at the end of their frenzied legislative fugue they'll then have to make a stand on how to enforce it.

          At which point they'll find that even China doesn't have the means they'd need so they'll have to go for the more heavy-handed approach of going after whatever they can trawl from the open web.

          And THAT is when you'll find a lot of the currently parts of the EU internet submerging. Once the average user gets used to searching the darknet for everything they'll find that in the darknet, NO one does any filtering - so that's where everything the EU and US ever tried to stop will be.

          When a website goes to the deep net, that's where it then is no matter whether you're trying to access it from the EU, the US or from China.

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      • icon
        btr1701 (profile), 27 Nov 2019 @ 11:39am

        Re: Re: Techxit

        This doesn't mean such services will cease to exist - only that they will in future only be found on the darknet.

        Not necessarily. The only reason these social media companies are subject to these laws is because they maintain physical presence in those countries. If they leave, they would no longer be subject to the laws, but their services/sites would still be accessible to the citizens of that country on the internet. The only thing the government could do at that point would be to block Facebook, et al, on a nationwide basis, but that would come at a political cost as their constituents would likely go ballistic at being shut out of something they've come to greatly rely upon and enjoy.

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        • icon
          Wendy Cockcroft (profile), 28 Nov 2019 @ 2:35am

          Re: Re: Re: Techxit

          Enjoy your second Insightful vote from me. You're right. Again.

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        • icon
          Scary Devil Monastery (profile), 28 Nov 2019 @ 6:45am

          Re: Re: Re: Techxit

          "Not necessarily. The only reason these social media companies are subject to these laws is because they maintain physical presence in those countries."

          True enough. I'm thinking, however, that if Google leaves, say, the EU, and maintains an EU-only page served from russian servers or such...then the EU's next move WILL start to be blocking.

          After that is found to be impractical and ineffective I guarantee you some commissionary asshat WILL start speculating about cribbing China's "Golden Shield" idea for europe.

          That's the point at which I see the darknet becoming the new normal.

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          • icon
            Wendy Cockcroft (profile), 28 Nov 2019 @ 7:26am

            Re: Re: Re: Re: Techxit

            You're assuming there won't be an ACTA-style public outcry, which is likely to happen in such an event.

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            • identicon
              Anonymous Coward, 28 Nov 2019 @ 8:02am

              Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Techxit

              Acta level protest? Shutdown YouTube and the popular social media sites, and the younger generations will likely start a revolution.

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            • icon
              Scary Devil Monastery (profile), 29 Nov 2019 @ 4:32am

              Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Techxit

              "You're assuming there won't be an ACTA-style public outcry, which is likely to happen in such an event."

              I'm assuming that outcry will be ignored because the EU commission has become better at sneaking unacceptable legislation past the EP - as witnessed during the copyright directive farce.

              Or that the legislation will be tabled during a time when the public has something else to be outraged or scared about.

              What I'm NOT assuming is that the new feudal overlors in the EU commission and bureaucracy will suddenly develop democratic values and a sense of reason and proportion. Let's face it, even if Brexit is a shit-show, I'd lay good odds that thirty years from now the EU will have to use military force to keep half its members from seceding in disgust.

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              • icon
                Wendy Cockcroft (profile), 29 Nov 2019 @ 5:28am

                Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Techxit

                I'm assuming that outcry will be ignored because the EU commission has become better at sneaking unacceptable legislation past the EP - as witnessed during the copyright directive farce.

                If we'd had more people on it, the outcome might have been different. We're not engaged enough; the campaign shouldn't end because the Commission got their way, it ends when they've been kicked into touch. When ACTA bit the dust, Karel de Gucht was reminded that Parliament appoints commissioners and can replace them. Assuming the case is the same, we need to engage more with our MEPs to remind them of that. It means we don't just contact them when we're not happy about a new law, we contact them regularly and encourage them to hold the Commissioners to account. That we don't is the problem.

                Or that the legislation will be tabled during a time when the public has something else to be outraged or scared about.

                I can see that, so we need to be talking to our MEPs to encourage them to ensure these things aren't sneaked through.

                What I'm NOT assuming is that the new feudal overlors in the EU commission and bureaucracy will suddenly develop democratic values and a sense of reason and proportion.

                Right behind them are the corporate puppetmasters ensuring their will is done. We need a public interest lobby to counter them. Two can play at that game, and they need to play it well.

                Let's face it, even if Brexit is a shit-show, I'd lay good odds that thirty years from now the EU will have to use military force to keep half its members from seceding in disgust.

                Brexit is being run by the most incompetent PM we've ever had, and May was a numbnut! I can't see where the EU is going to get this military force from when it's dominated by France and Germany and some of the bigger countries have ever-growing cadres of anti-EU factions. The EU is going to have to drop the federalism if it wants to survive long-term. During ACTA, the Poles were a major player in terms of getting it killed. Other members of former Soviet satellite states remember the oppression they suffered. That's what we leveraged to kill ACTA and it worked like a charm. As I've said before, when dealing with people you can't take a one-size-fits-all approach. Find out what button to press and jump on it. With former Soviet sattelite states, it's surveillance. With the Right-neoliberal types, it's The Market. With left-liberal types, it's fairness to workers and the vulnerable. Yes indeed, a full time public interest lobby is required to counter the corporate lobbies. Stat.

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  • icon
    aerinai (profile), 26 Nov 2019 @ 11:14am

    Time for pass-through lawsuits...

    So, here's an interesting idea that the big tech firms could employ should this ridiculous law be put into effect. Make it a standing order that any individual that is being sued on their platform, a second suit is immediately opened against them by Facebook/Google/Twitter, etc. and hold that user liable for the lawsuit fees that are being incurred by whoever the litigious party is at the time.

    This of course would generate a HUGE BACKLASH and people would be angry as hell about these 'big corporate overlords attacking little old grandma just for being a little bit racist'. Then, they could arguably state that they are just following the law and attempting to recoup fees imposed on them by the Australian government's asinine defamation lawsuit.

    This obviously would be a pain for the Australian politicians as they would be blamed for setting up this mass litigation machine. Because these litigants want an easy payday from big tech, they might get it. But when the 'little man' has to start paying out, the Australian politicians might actually take notice.

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    • icon
      Stephen T. Stone (profile), 26 Nov 2019 @ 11:19am

      If anything, the tech companies should threaten that outcome before the government makes the proposed changes to that law. Nothing would turn public opinion against the proposal quicker than Twitter, Facebook, etc. saying “you pass this law and we’ll start suing our users when you sue us”.

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      • identicon
        Anonymous Coward, 26 Nov 2019 @ 11:39am

        Re:

        Actually that (indemnification) would be ideal. Users would then know they can't get away with violating TOS, and online bullying (as well as false advertising) would grind to a halt.

        Perfect!!

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        • icon
          Stephen T. Stone (profile), 26 Nov 2019 @ 11:47am

          But that would come with a cost: How could anyone know they're "violating TOS" with any given post, especially since the decision on whether the TOS is violated lies with a company that has every incentive to come down harshly on violations to avoid getting sued? Posts that might appear to violate TOS but are mere jokes if seen in context could end up getting someone banned/sued. It's a bullshit idea, and the only people who would want to see it implemented are people who think they should get to control who can say what on the Internet.

          I hope you're not one of those people. The law can always be turned against you, after all. Or do you think your support of such a law would grant you a magical exemption from it?

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          • identicon
            Anonymous Coward, 26 Nov 2019 @ 12:49pm

            Re:

            Platforms are not required to host content. The notice-and-takedown system prevents lawsuits. Distributors of gossip should stand behind the gossip as if they were publishers. That's all the law says. These companies have lawyers who review public statements for such violations all the time.

            Obviously the Australian government agrees with me but the "regulars" here have "punked" me so that's the only really important victory they should enjoy.

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            • identicon
              Anonymous Coward, 26 Nov 2019 @ 12:52pm

              Re: Re:

              What make you think that you would not be silenced by such a system,?

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            • icon
              Stephen T. Stone (profile), 26 Nov 2019 @ 1:06pm

              Platforms are not required to host content.

              My god, he's learning.

              The notice-and-takedown system prevents lawsuits.

              Do you really want a DMCA system for defamation—a system where mere accusation alone is enough to silence what could be protected speech and punish the person who posted it, thus chilling their speech in the future?

              Distributors of gossip should stand behind the gossip as if they were publishers. That's all the law says.

              And if Google were distributing “gossip”, you might have a point. But it’s not, so you don’t.

              These companies have lawyers who review public statements for such violations all the time.

              Small Mastodon instances don’t. For what reason should they be made to shut down if they can’t afford to offset their potential liability for what is only accused of being defamatory speech until it’s proven to be such in a court of law?

              Obviously the Australian government agrees with me

              You say that like you and the Aussie government are on the side of the angels instead of the side with both duct tape and the willingness to put it on people’s mouths.

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              • identicon
                Anonymous Coward, 26 Nov 2019 @ 5:51pm

                Re:

                Wonder what John boi thinks about the Australian government agreeing with iiNet and not Dallas Buyers Club LLC...

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            • identicon
              Anonymous Coward, 26 Nov 2019 @ 3:15pm

              Re: Re:

              “Obviously the Australian government agrees with me but the "regulars" here have "punked" me so that's the only really important victory they should enjoy.”

              That right there is the sound of a profoundly bruised ego.

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    • identicon
      Anonymous Coward, 26 Nov 2019 @ 12:14pm

      Re: Time for pass-through lawsuits...

      Nah, Australia is a Murdochracy. If they tried it, they would be the big bad foreign company demonised in the media, and the Government would use it as an excuse to pass more bad laws to make a bad situation worse. The Government never met a bad law they couldn't make worse.

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      • identicon
        Anonymous Coward, 30 Nov 2019 @ 12:15pm

        Re: Re: Time for pass-through lawsuits...

        In Australia the Murdochracy is the big bad foreign company demonising their more profitable upstart rivals who have taken His 'rivers of gold' advertising revenue away. So it's nothing personal, it's only business.

        And Murdoch's business is getting politicians to change the laws to favour his companies & not his rivals. It's so much easier to do that, than having to actually change your business model & compete in the marketplace. It's only a bad law if Murdoch says it's a bad law, & he ain't crying foul yet.

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    • identicon
      Anonymous Coward, 26 Nov 2019 @ 2:03pm

      Re: Time for pass-through lawsuits...

      a second suit is immediately opened against them by Facebook/Google/Twitter, etc. and hold that user liable for the lawsuit fees that are being incurred by whoever the litigious party is at the time.

      You mean exactly like most website user agreements have said for the last 20 years? I've never heard of sites doing that, but just search for "indemnify" and you'll notice that tons of people have already agreed to pay the legal fees of the sites they use. Usually regardless of whether they did anything wrong or the initial suit has any merit.

      I'd love to see a "HUGE BACKLASH" on those clauses. Even online shopping sites want you to pay their legal fees.

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  • identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 26 Nov 2019 @ 11:31am

    The law that's in place has encouraged all sorts of litigation from people who would prefer to sue service providers and social media platforms, rather than the people who actually said defamatory things.

    It's called distributor liability. Have one of your lawyer buddies look it up. It's a separate harm from publisher liability. Both can inflict the harm, but the speaker is usually judgment-proof, and isn't the one to whom employers are turning when deciding whether or not to offer work.

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    • icon
      Stephen T. Stone (profile), 26 Nov 2019 @ 11:41am

      Let’s say Google's search engine spiders scrape a non-Google site that has alleged defamatory content on it. Let’s then say the defamed party finds that content through a Google search. For what reason should Google be held liable for content it neither published nor distributed?

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        identicon
        Anonymous Coward, 26 Nov 2019 @ 12:43pm

        Re:

        Let’s say Google's search engine spiders scrape a non-Google site that has alleged defamatory content on it. Let’s then say the defamed party finds that content through a Google search. For what reason should Google be held liable for content it neither published nor distributed?

        The google search is distribution of the libel, and the cause of the harm, as the employer/whoever wouldn't have found the libel without the search engine. Look up "distributor liability."

        The threat of being sued by their ISP or Google will stop people from defaming others. The old saying "If you can't say something nice about someone, don't say anything at all" is very sound legal advice.

        Of course any (hypothetical) lawyers who have made a mint by invoking SLAPP and Section 230 (any resemblance to actual lawyers who have done this and are fans of this site is purely coincidental) might not like laws like this but oh well.

        Individual reputations can be protected very easily by search engines once they have a reason to do so. Right now this is viewed as acceptable loss to some, but obviously not to Australia.

        Ruth Bader Ginsburg said that foreign law should influence American law, even if it is not precedential. Circuits often turn to other circuits, and states to other states, for the same reason.

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        • identicon
          Anonymous Coward, 26 Nov 2019 @ 12:49pm

          Re: Now with 10% more impotent threats

          “Look up "distributor liability."

          I’m not doing your homework for you bro.

          “Of course any (hypothetical) lawyers who have made a mint by invoking SLAPP and Section 230 (any resemblance to actual lawyers who have done this and are fans of this site is purely coincidental)”

          You got some prof for that wild conspiracy bullshit?

          Of course not. You worked hard to get the nickname Cryin lyin Jhon. Why spoil it now?

          “The old saying "If you can't say something nice about someone, don't say anything at all" is very sound legal advice.”

          Have you stopped threatening to rape disabled people bro?

          reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

        • icon
          Stephen T. Stone (profile), 26 Nov 2019 @ 1:07pm

          Of course any (hypothetical) lawyers who have made a mint by invoking SLAPP and Section 230 (any resemblance to actual lawyers who have done this and are fans of this site is purely coincidental) might not like laws like this but oh well.

          Please point out a single, on-the-record legal case where someone invoked both SLAPP laws and Section 230 as a means of making profit. If you can’t do that, shut the fuck up.

          reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

        • icon
          Wendy Cockcroft (profile), 27 Nov 2019 @ 3:24am

          Re: Re:

          The google search is distribution of the libel, and the cause of the harm, as the employer/whoever wouldn't have found the libel without the search engine. Look up "distributor liability."

          The distribution is by the person uploading the libel. What you're suggesting would mean we couldn't have search engines any more in case some chump posted defamatory statements somewhere. At least, they would be blocked in countries with such stupid laws. See Spain's loss of Google services for details. It -could- happen.

          The threat of being sued by their ISP or Google will stop people from defaming others. The old saying "If you can't say something nice about someone, don't say anything at all" is very sound legal advice.

          That's assuming they'd be easy to find. Given that foreign laws don't apply in America you can expect companies based there to tell Google to go pound sand. It gets even more complicated if the defamer used a burner .ru email address at an internet cafe so can't be traced. Or the defamer is based in another country.

          Of course any (hypothetical) lawyers who have made a mint by invoking SLAPP and Section 230 (any resemblance to actual lawyers who have done this and are fans of this site is purely coincidental) might not like laws like this but oh well.

          The loss of a functional search engine may be a sacrifice you're willing to make. The rest of us, not so much. And you're forgetting that libel and defamation laws differ throughout the globe. So unless that One World Government the mad conspiracy theorists area always wibbling on about actually happens, good luck with getting your idea from stupid fantasy to reality. Bear in mind that all the nasty things you've ever said about anyone would come back to bite you very hard on the bum.

          Individual reputations can be protected very easily by search engines once they have a reason to do so. Right now this is viewed as acceptable loss to some, but obviously not to Australia.

          The protection of your reputation is on you alone. If you can't understand that behaving badly makes you look bad, that ain't my problem. Remember, when a troll came after me to ruin my reputation, what saved me was that I simply don't and never have behaved that way, and don't intend to. Ever. Horrible comments and outright lies have no effect on the innocent, as my personal experience has proved. Actual harm done: zero. So even if I did know who the troll was or how to get hold of him, I'd have no standing to sue for that reason. I'd be wasting my money if I tried. Even the Australian courts would throw it out due to lack of proven harm.

          Ruth Bader Ginsburg said that foreign law should influence American law, even if it is not precedential. Circuits often turn to other circuits, and states to other states, for the same reason.

          I'm sure she did, but at no point should foreign laws take precedent over American ones. Anything that messes with the First Amendment won't get over the line. Don't forget that.

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        • icon
          btr1701 (profile), 27 Nov 2019 @ 11:42am

          Re: Re:

          The google search is distribution of the libel, and the cause of the harm, as the employer/whoever wouldn't have found the libel without the search engine.

          So you're saying it's illegal to tell people what's on the internet-- that at a fundamental level it would be illegal to just make a list of every web site on the internet?

          And you think that squares with the 1st Amendment exactly how?

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        • icon
          btr1701 (profile), 27 Nov 2019 @ 11:43am

          Re: Re:

          Ruth Bader Ginsburg said that foreign law should influence American law

          Which is one reason that crone needs to retire and make way for someone who knows that foreigners don't get to make law for the United States.

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          • icon
            Wendy Cockcroft (profile), 28 Nov 2019 @ 2:42am

            Re: Re: Re:

            Ahhh! You were doing so well, btr1701. I gave you your third Insightful vote for the comment above this but now... no. Bad btr1701.

            First of all, where there is wisdom in a foreign law, why not implement it IF it doesn't conflict with the Constitution?

            Secondly, "old crone?" No need to be ageist and sexist, mate. Not okay. Your right wing knuckledragger slip is showing.

            Thirdly, foreigners actually do make law for the United States via free trade agreements, as we are constantly reminded right here on TD. When Congress passes them into law, they cite "our international obligations" as the reason for doing so. Copyright law is a classic example thereof.

            Take your right wing blinkers off, they're stopping you from seeing the truth.

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            • icon
              btr1701 (profile), 30 Nov 2019 @ 1:19am

              Re: Re: Re: Re:

              Secondly, "old crone?" No need to be ageist and sexist, mate. Not okay. Your right wing knuckledragger slip is showing.

              Why is it that it's only "ageist, sexist, whatver-ist and knuckledragging" when a liberal/leftist politician is called derogatory names? Trump and other conservative pols are regularly called all manner of vile and bigoted names on this site by commenters and I don't remember you ever running in to chide them for it as you've done here.

              foreigners actually do make law for the United States via free trade agreements, as we are constantly reminded right here on TD. When Congress passes them into law...

              In that case, it's Congress making the law, not foreigners. No foreigner is imposing law on U.S. citizens. For good or ill, it's the elected representatives that are doing that.

              And even so, the Constitution is the supreme law of the nation, so if a treaty conflicts with it,the treaty fails.

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              • identicon
                Anonymous Coward, 30 Nov 2019 @ 3:29pm

                Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

                "Trump and other conservative pols are regularly called all manner of vile and bigoted names on this site by commenters and I don't remember you ever running in to chide them for it as you've done here."

                He deserves it.

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                • identicon
                  Anonymous Coward, 30 Nov 2019 @ 3:41pm

                  Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

                  Historically, he's not that bad for a sitting President.

                  reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

                  • icon
                    Wendy Cockcroft (profile), 2 Dec 2019 @ 2:59am

                    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

                    What, compared to Andrew Jackson? The man is boorish, sucks up to the Russians and invites them to intervene in American politics by investigating his political rivals, not his own staff who are busily stuffing their faces at the Ukraine trough.

                    Domestically, he is awful.

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                    • identicon
                      Anonymous Coward, 2 Dec 2019 @ 4:47am

                      Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

                      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_presidents_of_the_United_States_who_owned_slaves

                      Woodrow Wilson signed a eugenics law when he was a governor of New Jersey.

                      Martin Van Buren did the illegal indian removals/genocide

                      Tyler became a confederate states of america senator

                      There are some others that did some questionable stuff but Van Buren and Tyler didn't come close to being impeached even though they were probably the worst presidents.

                      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

                      • icon
                        Wendy Cockcroft (profile), 2 Dec 2019 @ 5:22am

                        Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

                        Trump certainly does look better than those two, but "bad compared to the worst" isn't a metric I'd like to be using. He compares very badly with the best.

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                        • identicon
                          Anonymous Coward, 2 Dec 2019 @ 12:24pm

                          Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

                          idk who the best is. A lot of people like Lincoln or Washington. A lot less bloodshed happened on Trump's watch than Lincoln but Lincoln's enemies really deserved it.

                          reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

                          • icon
                            Wendy Cockcroft (profile), 3 Dec 2019 @ 3:14am

                            Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

                            Yeah.. let's talk about egregious, unnecessary cruelty and scandals. How does Trump fare in that area?

                            Bear in mind that Trump's abandonment of the Kurds and continuing involvement in the Middle East and Afghanistan, not to mention interference in South American politics is raising the body count.

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                            • identicon
                              Anonymous Coward, 3 Dec 2019 @ 5:49am

                              Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

                              He is actually pretty good tbh. It's not a fair comparison though because in Washington's day the technology they had to prevent smallpox was to slather live smallpox infection puss on a cut and hope it the small exposure to the live dangerous virus didn't kill them.

                              It was better than not doing it but it actually did kill a lot of people, just less than without it.

                              There was no penicillin in the civil war and they treated dysentery by taking away water which makes the symptoms go away but often kills the patient.

                              Trump didn't completely abandon the Kurds. He has been negotiating with Erdogan to find a solution that doesn't include Turkey going on the offensive against Syrian Kurds the entire time. Erdogan, Pelosi, Trump, and I think McConell were just in the White House the other day making the best deal they can for the Kurds. A few died in a Turkish operation. I wish they didn't but it was not a large death toll.

                              I have no idea why you think the US is responsible for South America right now.

                              reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

              • icon
                Wendy Cockcroft (profile), 2 Dec 2019 @ 2:57am

                Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

                Why is it that it's only "ageist, sexist, whatver-ist and knuckledragging" when a liberal/leftist politician is called derogatory names? Trump and other conservative pols are regularly called all manner of vile and bigoted names on this site by commenters and I don't remember you ever running in to chide them for it as you've done here.

                It's reasonable to call out bad behaviour. Remember how I pointed out that Trump actually kept his promise to donate his salary? When he gets stuff right I do say so. And Trump does behave badly. It's not bigoted to call out bad behavior. If liberal/leftist politicians behave badly, we call them out for it. Remember "Spy-stein?" We don't let them get away with it. Now, since you want to discuss this, tell me what bad behavior Ruth Bader Ginsburg indulged in, and why you opted to denigrate her age and sexual attractiveness instead of having a go at the actual things she did.

                Yes, I called Trump the Mango Mussolini but he does act like a dictator and he's fake all the way through. Can you say the same for a certain Supreme Court judge?

                reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

                • icon
                  btr1701 (profile), 2 Dec 2019 @ 3:29pm

                  Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

                  It's reasonable to call out bad behaviour.

                  Commenters here regularly use pejoratives that fall under many of your many "-ism" categories regarding pols and government officials (and other commenters) merely for being conservative. No bad behavior necessary.

                  Since that seems to be the culture here-- that it's acceptable to hurl insults merely for having a difference in politics-- then I see no reason why liberal/left pols and government officials shouldn't get the same treatment. Again, no actual bad behavior necessary.

                  And that's the reason I do it. So that I can periodically highlight the double-standard and hypocrisy in the community here.

                  reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

                  • icon
                    Wendy Cockcroft (profile), 3 Dec 2019 @ 3:19am

                    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

                    "Caging kiddies is wrong" is not a difference of opinion or politics. It's flat out unacceptable, whoever does it. Yes, I mean when Obama did it. Wrong.

                    "Rape and sexual abuse, and contributing thereto or excusing sexually predatory behaviour is wrong" is not a difference of opinion or politics. It's flat out unacceptable, whoever does it. Yes, I mean when Clinton and Franken did it. Wrong.

                    "Abuse of position to get dirt on political rivals is wrong" is not a difference of opinion or politics. It's flat out unacceptable, whoever does it. Yes, I mean if any other party leader or activist it. Wrong.

                    "Robbing the poor box" as Trump did when he used his "charity" as a piggybank is not a difference of opinion or politics. It's flat out unacceptable, whoever does it. Yes, I mean when anyone else does it. Wrong.

                    Shall I continue? I've got all day.

                    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

                    • identicon
                      Anonymous Coward, 3 Dec 2019 @ 6:28am

                      Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

                      Children go to juvenile hall in the US. It happens all over the US. Children go to jail.

                      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

                    • icon
                      btr1701 (profile), 3 Dec 2019 @ 11:50am

                      Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

                      Shall I continue? I've got all day.

                      If you like, but it's all irrelevant to the point.

                      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

                    • icon
                      btr1701 (profile), 3 Dec 2019 @ 11:57am

                      Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

                      Yes, I mean when anyone else does it. Wrong. Shall I continue? I've got all day.

                      Also, even if the behavior is wrong, it's still not appropriate to use racist, sexist, ageist, fill-in-the-blank-ist or -phobic insults to address it, correct?

                      I mean, you cited Obama's bad behavior above with regard to "caging kiddies". So would it be okay to address that bad behavior by calling Obama the n-word?

                      I'm going to assume your answer to that is no. Therefore, all this talk about 'bad behavior' is irrelevant, since using "--ist" and "--phobic" insults toward someone, even if they're behaving badly, is wildly inappropriate.

                      Which then brings me back to my original question: Why do you never criticize TechDirt commenters who do exactly that with regard to conservative politicians, government officials, and other commenters?

                      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

                      • identicon
                        Anonymous Coward, 3 Dec 2019 @ 5:20pm

                        Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

                        People vented by calling obama the n-word all over the internet. I didn't agree with those people but they can say it.

                        Some of them were black some were not.

                        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

                        • icon
                          Wendy Cockcroft (profile), 4 Dec 2019 @ 1:30am

                          Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

                          "...using "--ist" and "--phobic" insults toward someone, even if they're behaving badly, is wildly inappropriate.

                          If the hat fits, wear it. Neither "--ist" nor "--phobic" are racist or insulting per se, they're descriptive of bad behaviour. "Racist" is an epithet often used on Trump. Why? Racist policies and his past as a landlord excluding black people.

                          "Transphobic" is an epithet often used on Trump. Why? He wants to ban transgender personnel from the army when the army has no problem with them.

                          They are not bigoted, they're descriptive. Had Obama behaved like this, we'd have said the same things about him. Nobody's picking on Trump because he's white, disabled, or anything like that. We pick on him for his scandal-ridden administration (he may have set a new record for the most staff members indicted and/or jailed while working for a sitting president), bad decisions, conspiracy mongering, norm-ignoring, bad manners, abandonment of allies, and general stupidity and cruelty. You know he's bad if he makes Bush II look like a respectable elder statesman. Drop the torch, there are better people to support. Governor Weld seems like the kind of decent, gracious man you could get behind without cause or reason to defend him. If he was elected president, I doubt we'd have much to complain about.

                          reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • icon
      Aaron Walkhouse (profile), 26 Nov 2019 @ 2:05pm

      See it for yourself:

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • icon
      Aaron Walkhouse (profile), 26 Nov 2019 @ 2:14pm

      Some reading material for you:

      Distributors like social media sites have defenses too.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Innocent_dissemination

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • icon
    Koby (profile), 26 Nov 2019 @ 11:39am

    I bet

    The time when freedom is most endangered, is when lawmakers are in session. We may not know how any potential legislation will turn out, but my guess is that they Moneyed Elite will try their darndest to carve out special exemptions for themselves, while everyone else's rights are curtailed.

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • icon
      Stephen T. Stone (profile), 26 Nov 2019 @ 11:42am

      my guess is that they Moneyed Elite will try their darndest to carve out special exemptions for themselves

      Why else do you think Bloomberg announced his run for president? Because it sure as shit isn’t to “bring America together again”.

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

      • icon
        Zof (profile), 26 Nov 2019 @ 1:38pm

        Re:

        On the bright side, Bloomberg lost his fake crusade against vaping.

        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

        • icon
          Samuel Abram (profile), 26 Nov 2019 @ 1:45pm

          Re: Re:

          How so? It's been severely restricted here in NYC…

          reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

          • icon
            Zof (profile), 26 Nov 2019 @ 1:46pm

            Re: Re: Re:

            Well, Bloomberg lives there so sorry. You have to suffer because of the will of a trust fund kid.

            reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

            • icon
              Samuel Abram (profile), 26 Nov 2019 @ 1:50pm

              Re: Re: Re: Re:

              Um, Bloomberg hasn't been mayor since 2013. You could make an argument that he influenced the current mayor Bill DeBlasio vis-à-vis tobacco, vaping, and e-cigs, but his influence on the government (unless you're talking about his media or lobbying influence (and NYC has strong public funding of elections)) is gone once he leaves office.

              reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

              • icon
                Zof (profile), 26 Nov 2019 @ 1:53pm

                Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

                I can literally name the K Street PR firm that worked with the CDC to "massage the message."

                reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

                • identicon
                  Anonymous Coward, 26 Nov 2019 @ 2:37pm

                  Re: A wild Liar appears!

                  reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

                • icon
                  Samuel Abram (profile), 26 Nov 2019 @ 2:43pm

                  Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

                  I can literally name the K Street PR firm that worked with the CDC to "massage the message."

                  Then that means the K Street firm in question is at fault, along with DeBlasio since he went along with it during his administration. If you’re going to blame Bloomberg for stuff he did outside of his administration not related to his media empire, I’d like to hear the evidence.

                  reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

            • icon
              btr1701 (profile), 27 Nov 2019 @ 11:51am

              Re: Re: Re: Re:

              because of the will of a trust fund kid.

              I'm no Bloomberg fan, but he was hardly a trust fund kid. He didn't come from money.

              reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • icon
      btr1701 (profile), 27 Nov 2019 @ 11:49am

      Re: I bet

      The time when freedom is most endangered, is when lawmakers are in session.

      Which is why the Texas legislature only meets for 6 months every two years, the thought being that if they're not in session, they can't be fucking around with your life too much.

      It also has the added benefit of forcing the politicians to concentrate on actual necessary work when they are in session instead of wasting time with endless bullshit and investigations of their opponents and who-knows-what. They have six months to pass needed laws, appropriate funding, and budget the entire state for the next two years. Doesn't leave a lot of time for fucking around with political theater and other nonsense.

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 26 Nov 2019 @ 11:41am

    Anyone defamed in the US can currently move to AUS and retire on what they'd win in a lawsuit against the search engines, or they can just hire a lawyer to do it for them there.

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • icon
      Stephen T. Stone (profile), 26 Nov 2019 @ 11:50am

      I hope you’re not pointing that out like it’s a good thing. Defamation tourism is, without any doubt, a load of bullshit.

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

      • This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it
        identicon
        Anonymous Coward, 26 Nov 2019 @ 12:40pm

        Re:

        Someone who is defamed every time they are "Googled" can seek refuge in Australia, because the search engines are stubborn that way. They could just remove the content globally.

        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

        • identicon
          Anonymous Coward, 26 Nov 2019 @ 12:47pm

          Re: Re:

          Why don't you move to Turkey, and make friends with their president, as you could try to get him to put the resources of his country behind protecting your reputation.

          reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

        • icon
          Stephen T. Stone (profile), 26 Nov 2019 @ 1:08pm

          Someone who is defamed every time they are "Googled" can seek refuge in Australia

          …you’ve said a lot of dumb bullshit in your time here, Jhon, but this is so fucking ridiculous that I think my brain melted into my intestines upon reading it.

          reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

        • icon
          Wendy Cockcroft (profile), 27 Nov 2019 @ 3:32am

          Re: Re:

          Someone who is defamed every time they are "Googled" can seek refuge in Australia, because the search engines are stubborn that way. They could just remove the content globally.

          That is way beyond nonsensical. Get help!

          People aren't defamed when someone looks them up. People are defamed when someone posts lies about them that causes actual harm, e.g. loss of earnings. What you're proposing is a business model based on trolling search engines for butthurt money. No.

          reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

          • icon
            Stephen T. Stone (profile), 27 Nov 2019 @ 7:25am

            What you're proposing is a business model based on trolling search engines for butthurt money.

            …holy shit, Jhon Smith is a copyright troll!

            reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

            • icon
              Wendy Cockcroft (profile), 28 Nov 2019 @ 2:46am

              Re:

              Eh, more of a butthurt money troll. Remember when Prenda went after business based on accessibility? Same idea, but this time it's about suing search engines because some creep posted some horrible comments somewhere.

              reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

            • icon
              Scary Devil Monastery (profile), 28 Nov 2019 @ 6:52am

              Re:

              "…holy shit, Jhon Smith is a copyright troll!"

              o_O

              Well, that explains WHY he's so keen to be able to avoid being googled, and why he keeps bringing up why being able to find out what people say about him might hurt his business model...

              reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • identicon
      Anonymous Coward, 26 Nov 2019 @ 11:52am

      Re:

      So do it bro. Quit being a bitch and put your money where your mouth is. Except we all know cryin lyin Jhon ain’t gonna do that.

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

      • identicon
        Anonymous Coward, 26 Nov 2019 @ 12:40pm

        Re: Re:

        Who says I'm not doing it?

        Lot of money in that pot.

        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

        • identicon
          Anonymous Coward, 26 Nov 2019 @ 12:54pm

          Re: Don’t forget the rape of promises me

          Bitch please. I’m still waiting for my subpoena that you promised was on the way. And the press release, and the devastating journalistic expose, and the local, state, and federal police charges, etc, etc , etc.

          reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

        • icon
          Stephen T. Stone (profile), 26 Nov 2019 @ 1:11pm

          Who says I'm not doing it?

          You. You’re not showing us proof that you’re doing it, so you’re not doing it. Prove you’re doing it, right here and now. Or are you a coward who hides behind a bunch of big talk like a shitheaded playground bully? C’mon, Jhon, quit being a bully and be a fucking man about it! Nut up or shut up! Show us your big swinging dick instead of talking about how you totally banged a supermodel with it!

          …what I’m saying is you’re a liar. Come at me, you free-speech-hating bitch.

          reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

          • identicon
            TFG, 26 Nov 2019 @ 6:14pm

            Re:

            Come at me, you free-speech-hating bitch.

            Jhon Smith is a neo-nazi.

            reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

            • icon
              Stephen T. Stone (profile), 27 Nov 2019 @ 7:25am

              Now now, that’s not nice to say.

              He could just be a garden variety White supremacist.

              reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

              • icon
                Scary Devil Monastery (profile), 29 Nov 2019 @ 4:37am

                Re:

                "He could just be a garden variety White supremacist."

                True enough. He DID come out swinging in favor of a few copyright trolls who were, apparently, jewish.

                More Klan than Stormfront, would be my guess.

                reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

                • identicon
                  Anonymous Coward, 29 Nov 2019 @ 11:38am

                  Re: Re:

                  White supremacists often don't reach the level of klan or nazis.

                  Klan, in its various iterations and long history, hates jews, catholics, non-christians, and inter-racial association of any type.

                  They are, of course, wrong but better than nazis because they don't want to exterminate the other races, they just don't want any form of racial integration or interracial gatherings or relationships.

                  reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

        • identicon
          Anonymous Coward, 26 Nov 2019 @ 5:36pm

          Re: Re: Re:

          Because you'd never put your real name to a legal document.

          reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

          • This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it
            identicon
            Anonymous Coward, 26 Nov 2019 @ 9:36pm

            Re: Re: Re: Re:

            So you say.

            reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

            • icon
              techflaws (profile), 26 Nov 2019 @ 9:44pm

              Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

              Bring it on.

              reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

            • identicon
              Anonymous Coward, 26 Nov 2019 @ 10:55pm

              Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

              You've been saying that since last year, boasting about how the nukes are coming to destroy everyone up the magical Masnick food chain you'd been hunting and tracking for years, using patron money for your mailing lists.

              But nah, the biggest thing you've managed to achieve here is to lose your shit when a judge declared that in order to have copyright enforced on something, you actually have to have it registered first. Same thing when another judge ruled that IP addresses pulled out of your MarkMonitor ass aren't substantial enough to count as evidence. That was half a year ago.

              Go on, then - put your real name or your pseudonym, just have fun having it tied to a remark where you boasted your enjoyment of stepping on "little boy dicks".

              reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

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                identicon
                Anonymous Coward, 27 Nov 2019 @ 5:45am

                Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

                People who have been visited by law enforcement won't report that to the internet.

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                • icon
                  Stephen T. Stone (profile), 27 Nov 2019 @ 10:21am

                  You’d be surprised how often people on the Internet will out-and-out say they received a visit from the cops. Then again, given your demonstrable impotence, nobody has to worry about a visit from the cops on your behalf.

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                • identicon
                  Anonymous Coward, 27 Nov 2019 @ 10:41am

                  Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

                  Ahem...

                  Bullshit

                  reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

                • identicon
                  Anonymous Coward, 27 Nov 2019 @ 4:56pm

                  Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

                  So that's why we haven't heard anything about the FBI knocking on your door! I suppose nobody wants to admit that the FBI paid them a visit after boasting about little boy dicks.

                  reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • icon
      Wendy Cockcroft (profile), 27 Nov 2019 @ 3:29am

      Re:

      Anyone defamed in the US can currently move to AUS and retire on what they'd win in a lawsuit against the search engines, or they can just hire a lawyer to do it for them there.

      Unless they could prove actual harm, good luck with that. As I pointed out earlier, there would be no payola for me. I didn't lose my job, I got promoted shortly afterwards because I was able to prove it was a troll post. If that person who helped to spread it by blogging about me hadn't screenshotted the email she received from the troll, I'd have had little in the way of evidence that I'd been targeted by a troll. She did more to exonerate me than anything else I could get hold of.

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  • icon
    Nathan F (profile), 26 Nov 2019 @ 1:23pm

    So if this does pass Facebook and Twitter should implement the publisher editor function by holding all Facebook and Twitter posts by government officials until someone there can vet and fact check it. I forsee many a politicans posts disappearing into the ether.

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    • icon
      Wendy Cockcroft (profile), 27 Nov 2019 @ 3:35am

      Re:

      And I foresee many a politician scrambling to backtrack or seeking exemptions, pronto.

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    • icon
      That One Guy (profile), 27 Nov 2019 @ 4:28am

      Ah to be a fly on that wall...

      'Hey, you were the one who made us liable for checking posts, we're just doing to you what you would have us do to all the other people who use our platform. Don't worry though, we'll be sure to get around to vetting and allowing your comments after we get through the other stuff, should only take us... oh, several years at this rate, but that's a small price to pay to make sure that we only allow good stuff on our platform, so I'm sure you'll be able to deal with any delay just fine.'

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      • identicon
        Anonymous Coward, 27 Nov 2019 @ 5:45am

        Re: Ah to be a fly on that wall...

        The market will yield a company that manages to do just fine, like those who don't fire workers after the minimum wage goes up.

        "Product safety for our car is just TOO expensive..."

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        • icon
          Wendy Cockcroft (profile), 27 Nov 2019 @ 7:04am

          Re: Re: Ah to be a fly on that wall...

          That is nonsense, Jhon. Search engines can't control people's posting habits, they can only try to clean up after the fact. Your ignorance of how indexing works is not my problem and it shouldn't be anyone's.

          Remember, delisting the link doesn't mean the comment can't be found, it's just harder to find. Anyone who has the link and posts it again, or takes a screenshot and therefore changes the link, gets it re-listed automatically. No one could afford to hire the number of butthurt monitors required to make your mad idea work.

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          • icon
            btr1701 (profile), 27 Nov 2019 @ 11:57am

            Re: Re: Re: Ah to be a fly on that wall...

            Search engines can't control people's posting habits, they can only try to clean up after the fact.

            Why should they even have to do that? If I'm running a search engine, my job is to tell you and everyone else what's on the internet, not to help clean up the mess someone else put on the internet.

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            • icon
              Wendy Cockcroft (profile), 28 Nov 2019 @ 2:47am

              Re: Re: Re: Re: Ah to be a fly on that wall...

              4th Insightful vote. You're like the Girl with the Curl, man! When you are good you are very very good.

              reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

            • icon
              Scary Devil Monastery (profile), 29 Nov 2019 @ 4:42am

              Re: Re: Re: Re: Ah to be a fly on that wall...

              "Why should they even have to do that? If I'm running a search engine, my job is to tell you and everyone else what's on the internet, not to help clean up the mess someone else put on the internet."

              Because according to Jhon/Blue/Bobmail/Baghdad Bob there, someone suitably for suing needs to be held responsible for everything posted or communicated on the internet. Otherwise it's hard to get to all those damn pirates...

              The entire logic loop he keeps spinning around distributor liability is based on the idea that copyright enforcement will be far easier and more lucrative if you can abolish or circumvent free speech.

              And THAT is why he, at least, keeps harping on 230. It sets a nasty principle of platform holders and infrastructure NOT being liable for users.

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        • icon
          Scary Devil Monastery (profile), 28 Nov 2019 @ 6:56am

          Re: Re: Ah to be a fly on that wall...

          "The market will yield a company that manages to do just fine, like those who don't fire workers after the minimum wage goes up."

          Nope. The market won't be able to produce ANY company able to make a profit or even to exist in the legal paradigm you envision.

          "Product safety for our car is just TOO expensive..."

          That's not what you're asking for. You're asking for a law which makes the car manufacturer liable every time someone uses the (fully functional) car for speeding or while drunk.

          You're also asking for a law which makes the hardware store liable when some psycho uses the screwdriver they sold to stab someone.

          But you knew that, Jhon boy. I think we were more impressed with you back when you held your old job of shilling for saddam, Baghdad bob.

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        • identicon
          Anonymous Coward, 30 Nov 2019 @ 3:36pm

          Re: Re: Ah to be a fly on that wall...

          If your business is not profitable, then perhaps you should go out of business.

          reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

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    icon
    Zof (profile), 26 Nov 2019 @ 1:44pm

    People should get this protection the old fashion way instead.

    The way you get protection from journalists and media sites is by being a wealthy elite. That's how you can own Amazon, cheat on your wife, and it barely gets covered. That's how your druggie son can get a job with a corrupt foreign energy company, and the entire Media will downplay it. These stupid poors need to stop wanting things the 1 percenters have. They need to say in their lane.

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    • icon
      Stephen T. Stone (profile), 26 Nov 2019 @ 1:48pm

      Isn’t it also how the current president’s own children received positions in the White House despite having absolutely no actual experience in politics or public service? That sword cuts both ways, son, and you’d do well to remember that.

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        Zof (profile), 26 Nov 2019 @ 1:49pm

        Re:

        That sword cuts the same way for both of them is what I think you meant. And yeah, same thing.

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        • icon
          Stephen T. Stone (profile), 26 Nov 2019 @ 2:05pm

          That sword cuts the same way for both of them

          And for you. If you criticize Democrats/liberals/progressives for corruption and nepotism but ignore the corruption and nepotism of Republicans/conservatives/regressives, you look like a hypocrite.

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          • icon
            btr1701 (profile), 27 Nov 2019 @ 12:00pm

            Re:

            If you criticize Democrats/liberals/progressives for corruption and nepotism but ignore the corruption and nepotism of Republicans / conservatives / regressives, you look like a hypocrite.

            That happens all the time here. Conservatives are constantly criticized by the regulars here while the same behavior by 'progressives' is ignored. It's weird how you never call them out on it like you're doing here.

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            • identicon
              Anonymous Coward, 27 Nov 2019 @ 12:06pm

              Re: Re:

              Maybe you are not looking.

              reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

            • identicon
              Anonymous Coward, 27 Nov 2019 @ 1:06pm

              Re: Re:

              Maybe it’s because it’s not part of the story that the regulars are commenting on. Maybe it’s because whataboutDemocrats is, at this point, older and more full of holes, than the shroud of turin. Maybe it’s because one side really is worse than the other and has nothing but basic bitch projection left as a defence. Maybe it’s because use you ignore all the times other side gets called out to fit your shit narrative. Maybe it’s because the regulars here really are massive hypocrites that overlook any that has a D next to their name. Ima go with Occam’s razor and say you’re full of shit bro.

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            • icon
              Stephen T. Stone (profile), 27 Nov 2019 @ 1:17pm

              It's weird how you never call them out on it like you're doing here.

              Oh, you mean behavior like starting the immigrant family separation program that was exacerbated by Trump, or the ramping up of drone strikes regardless of innocent lives lost, or the war on whistleblowers such as Ed Snowden? Because all of that was bullshit, and all of it was done under the Obama administration. I may not have been overly critical of some of those things (among others) at the time, but at least I can own up to that and try to do better about it in the future. Can you say the same about yourself?

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            • icon
              Toom1275 (profile), 27 Nov 2019 @ 8:03pm

              Re: Re:

              It's not because of hypocrisy that we're not treating the 95%/5% Right/Left stupidity distribution as "both sides are the same."

              reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

            • icon
              Scary Devil Monastery (profile), 29 Nov 2019 @ 4:51am

              Re: Re:

              "That happens all the time here. Conservatives are constantly criticized by the regulars here while the same behavior by 'progressives' is ignored."

              How do i put this...? When Clinton sticks his wee-wee in a consenting adult other than his wife and tries to weasel out of it that topic is on an entirely different scale than when GWB opens camps in third world hellholes where US military personnel are encouraged to practice torture and rape. Or when the VP stands up and defends the practice.

              Democrat misbehavior HAS been heavily criticized by liberals - witness the way Obama went from hopeful star, then to lame duck, then was hung in effigy by liberal press because he failed, for instance, to close gitmo or had a field day drone-bombing civilians in the third world.

              It's just that republican presidents lately tend to fuck shit up just THAT much more. GWB and his cadre of neocon misfits were bad enough when they fabricated an excuse for a war of aggression out of whole cloth leading to an estimated half million civilian dead as a direct result...and then there was Trump, who makes Nixon look like a choir boy and GWB as a pillar of respectability and reason.

              Just look at your current CiC. Then TRY to find a good reason why any reasonable person would even try to apportion equal blame to both sides.

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      • icon
        Zof (profile), 26 Nov 2019 @ 1:56pm

        Re:

        Note: It's good agreeing with you on something for once.

        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 26 Nov 2019 @ 2:30pm

    For countries with tougher defamation laws, a notice and takedown system would probably be the fairest way to settle the issue.

    Who knows what they'll do though.

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    • icon
      Stephen T. Stone (profile), 26 Nov 2019 @ 3:31pm

      For countries with tougher defamation laws, a notice and takedown system would probably be the fairest way to settle the issue.

      No, it wouldn’t. The DMCA has such a system — and a long, documented history of the abuses of that system to silence protected speech for any number of reasons. Applying the same system to defamation would silence more speech than I can bear to imagine, most of it not even defamatory. Without hesitation or hyperbole, I say the following: Fuck. That. Shit.

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      • identicon
        Anonymous Coward, 26 Nov 2019 @ 3:55pm

        Re:

        I'm assuming they're not going to reform their defamation laws. It's better than no access to internet platforms, or being held liable for someone else's conduct, which are the alternatives.

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        • icon
          Stephen T. Stone (profile), 26 Nov 2019 @ 4:24pm

          If you want the unenviable position of defending and justifying a notice-and-takedown system that people can abuse without punishment, you’re more than welcome to take it.

          I wouldn’t, but I’m not an idiot.

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        identicon
        Anonymous Coward, 27 Nov 2019 @ 5:44am

        Re:

        The DMCA is the alternative to just haling ISPs and websites into court, so it works just fine. It has a counter-notification system which could apply equally to libel laws.

        A recent law-school grad who is defamed via search engines (which pick up even a single posting from a small "hate website") and loses a career because of this is an "acceptable loss" to the pro-230 crowd. Destruction of the reputation of innocent people is just "collateral damage." Doubt anyone who claims to believe this would still believe it if THEIR ox were being gored.

        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

        • icon
          Stephen T. Stone (profile), 27 Nov 2019 @ 7:15am

          The DMCA notice-and-takedown system is a just-barely-judicial system of copyright enforcement that takes down content upon mere accusation without the need to prove that accusation true. Any defamation law that does the same would slow speech on the Internet to a crawl, if not stop it altogether, because of the chilling effect of taking down protected speech based on a mere accusation. Who would post anything on the Internet if someone offended by a given post could have it taken down by saying “this offended and maybe defamed me”? And if the same system from the DMCA applied to defamation, not only would the takedown punish the person responsible for the content, it would rarely (if ever) punish someone for filing a false takedown notice.

          And as for this statement:

          Destruction of the reputation of innocent people is just "collateral damage."

          You seem to ignore the rampant abuse of the DMCA and the “collateral damage” said abuse does to free speech and expression on the Internet. Then again, I’m not the least bit surprised by that. No one who seriously defends the concept and principles of free speech could ever look at a notice-and-takedown system for defamation and see anything good. And you don’t seriously defend free speech, given how eager you are to threaten and cajole Mike into silencing himself.

          How about you threaten me for a change, you free-speech-hating bitch?

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        • icon
          btr1701 (profile), 27 Nov 2019 @ 12:05pm

          Re: Re:

          A recent law-school grad who is defamed via search engines (which pick up even a single posting from a small "hate website")

          That's not defamation. Your hypothetical law grad actually did post something unsavory on that web site. So the search engine results are true. Truth is the ultimate defense to a claim of defamation. For something to be defamatory, it has to be false.

          and loses a career because of this is an "acceptable loss" to the pro-230 crowd. Destruction of the reputation of innocent people is just "collateral damage

          The guy you described is not 'innocent'. He actually did what he's accused of doing and for which he was fired.

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        • identicon
          Anonymous Coward, 27 Nov 2019 @ 12:10pm

          Re: Re:

          "defamed via search engines"

          Please explain how this works. Inclusion of any relevant court cases would be of interest also.
          How much experience in defamation law occurring in the us do you have and what makes you think this is a valid claim?

          reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • identicon
      Anonymous Coward, 26 Nov 2019 @ 4:24pm

      Re:

      For countries with tougher defamation laws, a notice and takedown system would probably be the fairest way to settle the issue.

      It would certainly make it a lot easier for scammers, quacks and con artists to protect their business models, along with every company removing any bad reviews of their products.

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      • icon
        Wendy Cockcroft (profile), 27 Nov 2019 @ 3:38am

        Re: Re:

        Precisely.

        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

        • icon
          Wendy Cockcroft (profile), 27 Nov 2019 @ 3:42am

          Re: Re: Re:

          And anyone who was reported to anything for behaving badly would have that speech silenced. Results: all sorts of bad behaviour going unchecked and unchallenged.

          We've already had convicted paedophiles try to get search results removed because they contained details of their criminal convictions. Do you really want no way of vetting people for criminal activity?

          Now imagine the impact on newspapers and other media outlets. They would lose access to the internet as their reports would be suppressed from the search results. That's what you want, Jhon, isn't it?

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            identicon
            Anonymous Coward, 27 Nov 2019 @ 5:41am

            Re: Re: Re: Re:

            *We've already had convicted paedophiles try to get search results removed because they contained details of their criminal convictions. Do you really want no way of vetting people for criminal activity?* How about vetting search engines for defamation they allow to remain in their servers even after it's pointed out that it's defamatory? We've also had people who are NOT pedophiles falsely accused of pedophilia, harmed or even KILLED by "vigilantes" who find the lies on Google, we've had women targeted for revenge porn who can't sue the search engines in the US (the exception was a case where the RP site owner was involved in the upuloading), and we've had businesses suffer reputation blackmail with threats of spambots destroying them with false reviews that sites are immune from being sued over (so you can't trust any internet advertising). Take away 230 protection and sites have to stand behind what appears on them, as they should. Anyone who thinks someone being falsely accused of pedophilia (or a revenge porn victim, etc.) is an "acceptable loss" is not worth much in this debate. Moderation at scale is quite possible if it's based on a notice-and-takedown scheme. Leaving people defenseless against a single internet 4Chan type with an axe to grind is not the answer. People have a right to protect their good name.

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            • icon
              Stephen T. Stone (profile), 27 Nov 2019 @ 7:24am

              How about vetting search engines for defamation they allow to remain in their servers even after it's pointed out that it's defamatory?

              Google isn’t under any legal obligation to remove such content. That it does is worth commending. But it is neither the distributor nor the publisher of such content, no matter how much you want to stretch the law and the definition of “distributor” to suit your censorial agenda, and it has no obligation to act as such.

              We've also had people who are NOT pedophiles falsely accused of pedophilia, harmed or even KILLED by "vigilantes" who find the lies on Google

              They find the lies through Google. The lies are on other websites, and last time I checked, Google doesn’t own the entire Internet.

              we've had women targeted for revenge porn who can't sue the search engines in the US (the exception was a case where the RP site owner was involved in the upuloading)

              Gee, it's almost as if revenge porn sites and the people who post to them are the ones that should be held responsible for revenge porn~.

              we've had businesses suffer reputation blackmail with threats of spambots destroying them with false reviews that sites are immune from being sued over

              [citation needed]

              Take away 230 protection and sites have to stand behind what appears on them

              Take away 230 protection and sites won’t have to stand behind what appears on them because they won’t let anything appear on them. You seriously think Twitter, Discord, FurAffinity, DeviantArt, 4chan, 420chan, any given Mastodon instance, any given forum, and basically any website or service that hosts/allows for third-party speech would ever let such speech on those platforms if the platform operators could be held liable for speech they neither published nor directly helped publish?

              People have a right to protect their good name.

              How far would you let them go to protect it? What line are you not prepared to cross in your holy crusade against free speech?

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            • identicon
              Anonymous Coward, 27 Nov 2019 @ 7:34am

              Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

              We've also had people who are NOT pedophiles falsely accused of pedophilia, harmed or even KILLED by "vigilantes" who find the lies on Google,

              That has also happened due to rumours spread in the local pub. The problem is not the means of communications, but rather people spreading and believing rumours.

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            • identicon
              Anonymous Coward, 27 Nov 2019 @ 5:02pm

              Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

              You chose to boast about stomping on little boy dicks, John.

              John Smith isn't even your real name. We know this because "John Smith" is a name common enough to the extent it's basically as good as saying "John Doe". And last I checked "John Smith" has not become a synonym for pedophilia no matter how hard you're trying to make it.

              False accusations and advertising have existed before 230 and will continue to do so even after your wet dream of 230 dying. Get over yourself.

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            • icon
              Wendy Cockcroft (profile), 28 Nov 2019 @ 5:41am

              Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

              How about vetting search engines for defamation they allow to remain in their servers even after it's pointed out that it's defamatory?

              The crap about me remained on their servers until it was taken down by the hosting sites and the Google cache cleared. "Pointing out" and proving defamation are different things, and laws vary from country to country. In America, I understand they vary from state to state. You're barking up the wrong tree. If a defamation is hosted anywhere, it's on the website on which the comments are published. Your best bet is to contact the website owners/mods with any evidence you have that the posts are incorrect or violate their TOS. When they're gone from the host they'll go from the search engines. Why? THIS IS HOW SEARCH ENGINES WORK! They index website content.

              Some websites might not comply, but your own conduct should be proof enough of your innocence. It was in my case. I have ZERO black marks against my name because it's hard to take an hysterical anonymous troll seriously when he accuses you of a criminal offence yet does not report this to the authorities.

              We've also had people who are NOT pedophiles falsely accused of pedophilia, harmed or even KILLED by "vigilantes" who find the lies on Google, we've had women targeted for revenge porn who can't sue the search engines in the US (the exception was a case where the RP site owner was involved in the upuloading), and we've had businesses suffer reputation blackmail with threats of spambots destroying them with false reviews that sites are immune from being sued over (so you can't trust any internet advertising).

              Google is not the source of those lies. It's like suing the Government for building the road on which an assailant travelled or a car manufacturer for building the car. Go to the source and report. If they don't comply, you have the option to sue if you can afford it. I was polite and provided proof to all the website admins where the lies about me were hosted. Result: only one unreliable website hosts them. That website gave me the option to post a rebuttal linking to the evidence proving my accuser is a troll. Result: anyone clicking on that link sees my rebuttal. So I'm both accused and proven innocent every time someone clicks on the link.

              Take away 230 protection and sites have to stand behind what appears on them, as they should.

              Sites should not be obliged to police their users' behaviour, but I'm with you on enforcement of TOS. If a user violates TOS, report it. If they don't deal with it, at least leave a rebuttal so people can see both sides of the story. In my case it was [accusation] v [proof of troll activity]. No harm done to me.

              Anyone who thinks someone being falsely accused of pedophilia (or a revenge porn victim, etc.) is an "acceptable loss" is not worth much in this debate.

              Give the farmer back his straw. Nobody is saying that. You are arguing in bad faith if you insist that people who disagree with you are in favour of malfeasance. We're not. You're using the wrong tool for the job. You refuse to acknowledge that I myself was subject to false allegations. Had I lost my job over it, would I have blamed anyone but the troll? No. The troll alone is responsible for his behaviour.

              Moderation at scale is quite possible if it's based on a notice-and-takedown scheme. Leaving people defenseless against a single internet 4Chan type with an axe to grind is not the answer.

              Nobody is "defenseless" against the imaginary might of a 4Chan-type troll. In any case, the people attacked by vigilante mobs over accusations of kiddie fiddling (it happened over here in the UK) were victims of The Sun, a Murdoch gutter tabloid rag. It wasn't the internet, it was an irresponsible "newspaper." ::Spits::

              People have a right to protect their good name.

              You ain't gonna do that by turning the internet into an authoritarian dictatorship, bub.

              reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • icon
    That One Guy (profile), 26 Nov 2019 @ 5:22pm

    Yet another round of 'nerd harder'

    "My own view ... is that online platforms, so far as reasonably possible, should be held to essentially the same standards as other publishers," Mr Porter told an audience at the National Press Club.

    'Reason' would say that holding a platform that can get tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands, millions or more posts per day to the same standard as a paper who only publishes perhaps several dozen particular things per day that they have personally vetted would be beyond absurd, so quite clearly 'reasonably possible' has been thrown to the curb.

    "But you have to, of course, take into account, reasonable, sensible measures for how you do that ... because of the volume of what goes on in Twitter and Facebook is much larger than the volume from a standard newspaper."

    Yes, you do, so why are you so clearly not doing that?

    They may be trying to hide behind 'I'm only calling for reasonable things' but their motive of demanding that vastly different platforms be treated the same despite the significant differences is still crystal clear, and as always makes about as much sense as saying that that bikes and airplanes should be treated the same under the law because both of them involve transportation.

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • icon
      Wendy Cockcroft (profile), 27 Nov 2019 @ 3:46am

      Re: Yet another round of 'nerd harder'

      ^This. Moderation at scale is hard. It's difficult enough to get the most egregious content delisted, but to police our speech in case it causes offence? I routinely slag off politicians because I think they're doing a lousy job. If such a law were passed and someone complained, my blog would be shuttered. We've already had police that the door of a blogger for complaining about UKIP on his blog.

      Unless we're all happy to live in a totalitarian dystopia in which only Teletubbies-level conversation is acceptable, I say we should nip this censorial crap in the bud and push back against such laws. Hard. Law-making should be based on evidence, not knee-jerk reactions to the worst case scenarios.

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • identicon
      Anonymous Coward, 30 Nov 2019 @ 12:35pm

      Re: Yet another round of 'nerd harder'

      As newspapers have trouble even vetting those few stories they publish either in print or online maybe the AG can get real tough on the papers first to show the world how it's done by going after the Sydney Daily Telegraph (Tell me crap) which is owned by Murdoch. Well not if he wants to keep his job.

      https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2019/oct/23/doctored-documents-angus-taylor-news-cor p-climate-clover-moore

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  • icon
    Norahc (profile), 27 Nov 2019 @ 7:41am

    The AG's policy is so gangsta I had to wonder if Milorad "Michael" Trkulja and Stuart Gibson were consulted beforehand.

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    Nikita Sha (profile), 27 Nov 2019 @ 9:03pm

    Packers and Movers Review

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

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    Nikita Sha (profile), 27 Nov 2019 @ 9:05pm

    Packers and Movers Review

    Your reviews help people make the right decisions. Just click on the link below and post your review about packers and movers services reviews, hotel services reviews, mobile reviews, digital marketing services reviews and more.

    Visit here http://bit.ly/2zq9k8A

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  • identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 29 Nov 2019 @ 7:59am

    horse with no name just hates it when due process is enforced.

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • icon
    ahanup (profile), 2 Dec 2019 @ 1:25am

    ahan

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  • icon
    ahanup (profile), 2 Dec 2019 @ 1:25am

    herfevafan

    httpd://herfevafan.com

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]


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