Court Says No One's Responsible For Detainee Who Committed Suicide While Jailers Crafted 'Punisher' Posters

from the just-another-day-in-the-life-of-carceral-America dept

Via the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals comes a depressing tale about how cheap life is in jail, even for those who haven't been convicted of a crime.

It starts with a family argument. Jose Luis Garza was intoxicated and arguing with his brother. His mother expressed her fear for his safety to the Donna police officers she had called, stating she "feared for his life" and was "afraid he would hurt himself." The officers provided the only assistance they knew how to give: they arrested Garza, charging him with "assault by threat."

Garza was taken to the PD's holding facility -- not a prison or jail but somewhere for cops to stash arrestees until they were moved to an actual prison/jail. Garza was placed in a cell with a camera, but soon after being put there, he blocked the camera. The person monitoring the cameras did not notice it had been blocked. This DPD employee claimed watching the cameras wasn't her job once the jailers started their shifts.

The jailers started their shift at 8 a.m. They were required to check on detainees every hour. These officers -- Esteban Garza and Nathan Coronado -- may or may not have heard Jose Garza banging on his cell door to get their attention. The record simply doesn't show. The jail log shows a cell check was performed at 8:10 a.m., but there's reason to doubt this check was ever performed. More on that in a bit.

When the jailers arrived, they began the important work of… making posters. From the decision [PDF]:

After that point, the jailers worked on signs that DPD’s police chief, Ruben De Leon, directed them to put up in the jail. One read “Welcome to Donna Hilton,” and another showed the logo of the Punisher, a comic-book character known for carrying out vigilante justice.

This is what the jailers were doing instead of being jailers and paying attention to their detainees. This is the result of their poster-making efforts.

Occupied with the signs, the jailers missed that Garza had hanged himself, and it took the chance arrival of agents from U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) for Garza’s suicide to be discovered. The ICE agents had arrived at 8:40 AM and found him at 8:49 AM. It was unclear how long he had been hanging.

Let's just pause for second and marvel at how awful you have to be at your job for ICE agents to be the nominal heroes of this tragic story. These would be ICE agents, employed by ICE of #AbolishICE fame. ICE agents aren't known for their warmth, competence, or ability to treat anyone they come into contact with as human beings. Fortunately for these ICE agents, the detainee was already dead, preventing them from having to dip into their minuscule reserves of empathy.

But if ICE hadn't shown up, Garza may have been left hanging for hours. Sure, jailers were required to perform hourly cell checks, but the chief wanted posters made, and that took obvious priority. The most important thing was to let detainees know they were being mocked ("Welcome to the Donna Hilton") and in the custody of law enforcement officers who view a comic book vigilante killer as role model.

And about that hourly welfare check… here's what actually happened. A footnote in the decision indicates the jailers never checked on Garza and their first encounter with him occurred after ICE agents showed up and discovered his dead body.

Jailer Garza added the 8:10 AM check to the jail’s cell-check log after Garza’s death and after the Texas Rangers concluded their post-incident investigation. The actual occurrence of the check is thus a sharply contested fact issue.

This indifference to the condition of their detainee naturally resulted in a lawsuit. But, according to the Fifth Circuit, there's nothing in it for the plaintiffs. They pointed to the posters -- the ones being crafted while Garza hung himself -- as indicative of the Donna PD's official stance on the mistreatment of detainees. This is too much of a stretch for the court.

Appellants’ conditions theory centers on the signs that Ruben De Leon, DPD’s police chief, ordered installed in the jail. Those signs, as noted, bore the message “Welcome to Donna Hilton” and the Punisher logo, respectively, and Jailers Garza and Coronado were assembling them at the critical time on February 19. Appellants view the Donna Hilton sign as “mockingly invok[ing] the torture of POWs.” Donna officials venture a positive interpretation of the sign. De Leon said he “wanted buy in from the jailers and the staff to remember that we’re here to serve – the people who come in, some people call them prisoners. I call them customers.” Robert Calloway, a Texas Ranger who investigated Garza’s death, saw it as a reference to the Vietnam POW camp, as Appellants do.

Appellants view the Punisher logo as “favorably advocat[ing] vigilante violence.” At summary judgment, Appellants argued at length for a “link between Punisher imagery and abusive police behavior.” Among other sources, they relied on a dissenting opinion in a recent Eighth Circuit case, which, citing Wikipedia, explained that the Punisher was an “antihero” figure “created by Marvel Comics in 1974 as an antagonist to Spider-Man,” who “considers killing, kidnapping, extortion, coercion, threats of violence, and torture to be acceptable crime fighting tactics.”

In Appellants’ view, the signs, taken together, announce an “official policy of prisoner mistreatment” or “official encouragement of intentional mistreatment of detainees.” They argue that the signs should thus be categorized as a “condition” of the confinement to which Garza was subjected. The signs “served no valid governmental purpose,” and their installation caused Garza’s constitutional deprivation because it preoccupied Jailers Garza and Coronado to the detriment of their core duties.

The signs certainly aren't helpful and do little to assure detainees they'll be taken care of properly during their stay, but the appeals court agrees with the lower court: the signs the jailers crafted while allowing a detainee to hang himself are not indicative of inhuman conditions.

Appellants’ conditions theory is an effort to fit a square peg into a round hole. Prior conditions cases have concerned durable restraints or impositions on inmates’ lives like overcrowding, deprivation of phone or mail privileges, the use of disciplinary segregation, or excessive heat. See Yates v. Collier, 868 F.3d 354, 360 (5th Cir. 2017) (heat); Scott, 114 F.3d at 53 & n.2 (collecting other examples). The import of the Donna jail’s signs is too nebulous to amount to an official rule or restriction, and the signs do not operate as a continuing burden on inmate life in the way that dangerously high temperatures or overcrowded cells do. As such, the district court was correct to reject Appellants’ conditions theory.

The signs are also not indicative of official policies either. The appeals court does find that the jailers' actions -- making posters rather than checking on detainees -- could be construed as deliberate indifference, but decides the case can be dismissed on other grounds, rather than allowing that argument to develop.

Appellants do not attribute the actions of the arresting officer, Silva, or the senior officers who performed CPR, Rosas and Suarez, to any particular policy or custom. What they argue for Silva, Rosas, and Suarez is that De Leon’s order to post the “Welcome to Donna Hilton” and “Punisher” signs announced an official policy of detainee mistreatment. The import of the signs is too general and inexact for the signs to constitute the sort of specific directive required for municipal liability, and it is too nebulous to constitute a moving force. The episodic acts or omissions of these employees therefore cannot be attributed to the City.

And, since the police chief was unaware a prisoner was busy hanging himself, his decision to task his jailers with making posters cannot be seen as deliberate indifference either.

Nothing in the record indicates that De Leon was aware of Garza’s presence at the jail, much less that he instructed the jailers to disregard Garza in favor of installing the signs. It thus cannot be said that De Leon’s directive was deliberate in the sense meant by Pembaur or that it was tailored to the particular situation of Garza’s confinement. Consequently, it is apparent that the record cannot support municipal liability on this basis.

So, an indifferent deed goes unpunished. True, the jailers may not have deliberately decided to ignore a suicidal detainee in favor of making posters, but the record shows they were far from attentive. It wasn't until ICE showed up and interrupted the arts-and-crafts project that anyone specifically tasked with keeping an eye on detainees actually started to pay attention to the detainees. By that point, it was too late for Jose Luis Garza. And, as far as the courts can tell, this sucks for Garza but they don't have anything to offer his survivors.

Filed Under: 5th circuit, donna police department, esteban garza, ice, jose luis garza, nathan coronado, punisher, responsibility, ruben de leon, suicide


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  • identicon
    Christenson, 9 May 2019 @ 3:43pm

    Negligent Homicide...

    At least that's what it would be if this happened in a hospital...

    Cops are on notice the guy is suicidal, aren't watching him closely??? That should destroy qualified immunity right there.

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • identicon
      Anonymous Coward, 9 May 2019 @ 4:05pm

      Re: Negligent Homicide...

      He was placed into their care by the police because of his mental status. They then ignored him and lied about checking on him until after it was too late. 100% responsible for his death. Everyone involved should be fired and never allowed to work in enforcement again. Sue them personally.

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • identicon
      Baron von Robber, 10 May 2019 @ 8:49am

      Re: Negligent Homicide...

      At a hospital, they assign a patient attendant that is with them at all times.

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 9 May 2019 @ 3:50pm

    Personally I would put the blame on the damn fool who call the police in the first place instead of taking care of their family victim.

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • identicon
    Daydream, 9 May 2019 @ 3:53pm

    Hung himself with what?

    What did Garza use to hang himself? The court decision doesn't say. Did he have a belt, did he use shoelaces, his shirt, what? What did he hang himself from, even? And where was the camera that he could reach it and have something to block it with?

    Are we sure this isn't another case of 'he shot himself while his hands were handcuffed behind his back', just with a more plausible excuse?

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • icon
    Uriel-238 (profile), 9 May 2019 @ 4:04pm

    We just hate our suspects / convicts / inmates / whatever.

    It seems the human species just can't help itself once a person has been decided to be an undesirable. He's vermin until he's dead at which point he becomes a mess that we'd really rather someone else clean up.

    If that sounds horrible, what escalates the monstrosity of it is how we're strikingly consistent about it. Unless someone is actively watching out for the good of our inmates (there and watching, not merely expected to show in an hour) the ones who give no fucks are happy to leave them to starve or torture them for fun or throw them into a fighting pit with some other inmate and bet on them. We seem to be entirely unable to help ourselves but behave despicably regarding our prisoners.

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 9 May 2019 @ 4:14pm

    It sucks but

    His family & their lawyers did a terrible job arguing their point. If they had pointed out continued conditions of neglect, and indifference with the signs being supporting evidence, then it might have gone better. As they argued, i completely understand why the court acted as it did.

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 9 May 2019 @ 6:21pm

    ICE agents aren't known for their warmth

    Ice generally isn't known for warmth.

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 9 May 2019 @ 6:37pm

    Donna Hilton:

    Hilton is a high end hotel. They're therefore advertising the fact this is a high end prison, where you'll have privacy to hang yourself!

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 9 May 2019 @ 7:13pm

    Assuming one of the first quotes was true and accurate: "afraid he would hurt himself", that should have been a flag that this person needed to be watched closely for attempts at self-harm. He should have gone to a hospital, not a cell. Was that mentioned in the case? Would it have made any difference?

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • identicon
      Anonymous Coward, 9 May 2019 @ 7:24pm

      Re:

      They obviously didn't have the manpower to just move him to an appropriate facility for a 72-hour watch.

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it
      identicon
      Anonymous Coward, 9 May 2019 @ 8:50pm

      Re:

      This is a site where "3-day hold" is a commonly hurled insult. Ever think that language like that breeds conduct like this?

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • identicon
      Rog S., 13 May 2019 @ 10:39am

      Re:

      Fuck both options.

      The gray area,demands actual change, not Obamified lip service.

      And, as we all know, Barry did lots of lip service.

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • icon
    That Anonymous Coward (profile), 10 May 2019 @ 12:10am

    Your rights end the moment the police arrive.
    This is the very clear message we are getting from the courts.
    The unions scream about the 'war on cops' & express how upset they are when people call them names... yet remain silent when officers fail to do their jobs or violate the law resulting in the death of citizens.

    The real law of the land is if we decide you are a bad person, bad things can happen to you. You have no rights & no actual recourse b/c the image of the cops matters more than your life.

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • identicon
      Anonymous Coward, 10 May 2019 @ 3:18am

      Re:

      Exactly. The worse enemy of the police are the unions who allow and encourage bad behavior to be systemized and rubberstamped. No wonder they have an image problem when stormtroopers have better reputations in the real world. Couldn't possibly be the groups bribing the government to allow the excesses though.

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • identicon
    bobob, 10 May 2019 @ 3:45am

    Given the number of exonerations, especially in death penalty cases, and the fact that the united states has the dubious distinction of imprisoning more people than any other country in the world, the government doesn't even place much value on the lives of people who have done nothing wrong, so the extent to which life in prison is considered cheap is hardly surprising.

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • identicon
    Michael, 10 May 2019 @ 5:12am

    Where is the Trademark lawsuit from Hilton and Marvel?

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • identicon
    John, 10 May 2019 @ 6:05am

    Stretch-a-saurus Rex

    Wow... I know Techdirt are left wing hacks when they stray from intellectual "property issues", but seriously?! You seem to spend alot of time about the Punisher poster when it could just as easily have been a Batman, Superman, Daredevil, Deadpool, Lobo or any number of heroes/anti-heroes found in popular culture.

    What would the narrative have been if it had been Batman? Another dark vigilante? Or Deadpool? Or Lobo? Or Ghost Rider?

    Trying to infer motivations from what entertainment character someone likes is a HUGE stretch. Like... Stretch Armstrong or Plastic Man stretch.

    Stick to intellectual property issues.

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • identicon
      Anonymous Coward, 10 May 2019 @ 6:51am

      Re: Stretch-a-saurus Rex

      "I know Techdirt are left wing hacks"
      Interesting how things that people know to be true are simply not. This is seen today with increasing alarm as the election nears.

      You are upset about a poster? Why?

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • icon
      nasch (profile), 10 May 2019 @ 8:40am

      Re: Stretch-a-saurus Rex

      OK, but it wasn't any of those other things, it was a Punisher poster. You're not suggesting they picked that character because they just like the comic books, are you? It seems clear they picked it to send a message. And what is "left wing" about criticizing police for letting a guy hang himself in his cell? I really don't get it. Are conservatives fine with police neglect and prisoner suicide?

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • identicon
      Rog S., 10 May 2019 @ 11:20am

      Re: Stretch-a-saurus Rex

      John: I am guessing you use that name because you got caught in a prostitution sting, just after you left church one Sunday?

      But in case you didnt get the memo, the sick fucks who work in modern policing use that lo go to signify their buhliefs.

      Here is one example, as we see a truck driver stalked and harrassed by state patrol, and Fraternal Order pigs, and other cowards in Ohio:

      https://www.quora.com/How-do-you-feel-about-the-whole-gang-stalking-thing

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • identicon
    Punisher ROG S., 10 May 2019 @ 11:14am

    RE: The punisher is common

    The Punisher is a frequent theme, coupled with Jesus fish, and FOP /other police logos, that is repeated in online complaints from victims of police gang stalking:

    https://www.quora.com/How-do-you-feel-about-the-whole-gang-stalking-thing

    Read the comment by the truck driver T. Tipton

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • icon
      nasch (profile), 10 May 2019 @ 12:16pm

      Re: RE: The punisher is common

      Some information on the phenomenon of gang stalking from a more objective source:

      https://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/11/health/gang-stalking-targeted-individuals.html

      It's an interesting read but TLDR = generally paranoia and psychosis.

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

      • identicon
        Punisher ROG S., 11 May 2019 @ 5:53am

        Re: Re: RE: The punisher is common

        nasch, for a guy with (11,542) comments on TD, I see you have assloads of time on your hands.

        Care to explain?

        In the meantime, as awareness of how police and intellugence shitbags like the exact kind described in this article wage personal vendettas under cover of social media, and Fusion Centers -your comments are contradictory, and disingenuous.

        You are either for gang databases and private contractors and SOCMINT harrassment, or you are against it.

        So, you said It seems clear they picked it to send a message. And what is "left wing" about criticizing police for letting a guy hang himself in his cell?

        Are you able to see the contradiction in your own position, or are you just stupid, and banal? I mean, dude, your reading things into a simple set of imagery....right?

        Put the joints away for awhile, let your head clear, and get out of your mothers bed once in awhile.

        Your middle aged for Christs Sake.

        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

        • icon
          nasch (profile), 11 May 2019 @ 9:43am

          Re: Re: Re: RE: The punisher is common

          Care to explain?

          I owe you no explanation of how I spend my time.

          Are you able to see the contradiction in your own position, or are you just stupid, and banal?

          Just to make sure I understand you, are you saying that it's contradictory to believe that police are capable of abusive behavior and that the phenomenon of gang stalking is probably one of mental illness? That's an incredibly stupid position to take, but I'm not sure what else to make of your argument so I will ask you to confirm.

          Put the joints away for awhile, let your head clear, and get out of your mothers bed once in awhile.

          Your ad hominem arguments are so convincing as always.

          reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

          • identicon
            Punisher ROG S., 11 May 2019 @ 9:20pm

            Re: Re: Re: Re: RE: The punisher is common

            re: it's contradictory to believe that police are capable of abusive behavior and that the phenomenon of gang stalking is probably one of mental illness

            Yes, essentially, that is what I am saying.

            Did you somehow miss that in what I write ?

            Its such a simple concept.

            But people like you, with such hard working intellectual pseudonyms like "nasch "(are you the Yugioh fan? or the UK affiliated nasch with designer Russian hand bags for sale? ) frequently miss the finer points because you live in your mothers basement- or somewhere “mothers basement -like ”.

            The evidence of organized gang stalking correlated with police and surveillance state abuses is, at this point, irrefutable.

            The key is to separate the dis/misinformation spewed by frauds such as all the fake NSA /CIA whistle blowers like Karen Stewart, and Eleanor White, and Robert Duncan; or the ATAP affiliated crisis Pr agents like Lorraine Sheridan, David James, Liz Dietrich, Christine Sarteschi, Tomo Shibata, et al, from their victims.

            Unlike Kirk Weibe, William Binney, Edward Snowden, Dianne Roarke, etc none of those fake whistle blowers who ramble on about aleins and flat earth, those others have never been covered, or taken seriously by any reputable media, ANYWHERE (even in Russia, lol, those last are considered frauds, lololol ).

            Separate them out of the online discourse, and then, rational people can decide for themselves.

            But you arent fishing for rational people are you, quoting junk science like the New,Yarwk Times and Dr. Lorraine Sheridan.

            Any other evidence you want to discuss? I mean, the author of that piece, Mike McPhate now writes about "secret gangs in LAPD " since I wrote my blog.

            How paranoid is THAT? Secret gangs of police, tormenting neverending suspects via gang databases in the LAPD? Delusional!

            reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

            • icon
              nasch (profile), 12 May 2019 @ 7:24am

              Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: RE: The punisher is common

              Yes, essentially, that is what I am saying. Did you somehow miss that in what I write ?

              No I didn't miss it, as you should be able to tell by the fact that I asked if that's what you meant. I was just giving you a chance to explain that your position is not as idiotic as it sounds.

              Any other evidence you want to discuss?

              What do you mean "other" evidence? You haven't presented any at all. There's a difference between claims and evidence, and all you've shown is the former.

              you live in your mothers basement- or somewhere “mothers basement -like ”.

              Do you really think this makes your argument more convincing? Or does it just make you feel better to put other people down?

              reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

              • identicon
                Punisher ROG S., 12 May 2019 @ 9:18pm

                Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: RE: The punisher is common

                Naschi, as you are aware, I have presented ample evidence elsewhere, and here at TD, that organized gang stalking is security state abuse, encouraged by the surveillance state, and that a very well orchestrated disinformation aspect exists to mask its use in our societies.

                I suspect your diatribes above, and your reference to one of the most widely refuted pueces of musinformation via Dr. Lorraine Sheridan and discredited journalist Mike McPhate is part of that.

                So, I ask you again, are you a gang stalking denialist, or do you believe that organized gang stalking is what I have presented it to be?

                And that, which I have presented is this:

                corrupt police, and associates, working under the community policing scheme, and working with the ATAP crisis PR narratives, and utilizing LEIUs, and private contractors, and frequently, gang databases full of smears and slander -via -low -IQ -cops , to wage highly personalized assaults and organized harrassment on individuals, activists, dissidents, etc., in a para -judicial, vigilante fashion, and employing Fusion Centers to monitor the communications of said individuals without legal pretext or warrants?

                So, I ask you one more time.

                Otherwise, shaddup.

                reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

                • icon
                  nasch (profile), 12 May 2019 @ 11:01pm

                  Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: RE: The punisher is common

                  I am a gang stalking denialist. I remember a lot of screeds on the topic from you, but nothing I would categorize as evidence. Occam's razor would Indicate mental illness is a much simpler explanation.

                  reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

                  • identicon
                    Rog S., 17 May 2019 @ 1:18am

                    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: RE: The punisher is common

                    Yeah, Yugioh, coming from you and your evidence avoidant pseudo argument , that means so much.

                    But thanks for playing!

                    Note to self: people who read The Stranger are getting even stranger

                    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

                    • icon
                      nasch (profile), 17 May 2019 @ 7:31am

                      Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: RE: The punisher is common

                      Right, I'm the evasive one. Good one Rog. And what is that link supposed to prove, exactly?

                      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

                  • identicon
                    Punisher ROG S., 17 May 2019 @ 2:30am

                    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: RE: The punisher is common

                    BTW: There is an expression, coined, I think by tactical trainer and CVE beneficiary Gabe Suarez:

                    ...“we slice our enemies throats with Ochams razor. "

                    ....you can even look it up on his website, if you need more proof:

                    http://www.warriortalk.com/showthread.php?24299-Ockham-s-Razor

                    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • identicon
    R欧冠, 11 May 2019 @ 2:55am

    Nasch the zioNazi

    In true zionazi fashion, nasch quotes the most widely discredited study on that topic ever.

    Dr. Lorraine Sheridan herself works in the Prison Industrial Complex, and her partner in crime David James is a buttboy for the police state.

    ZioNazis like you make Holocausts so fun, Nasch ;)

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • icon
      Uriel-238 (profile), 11 May 2019 @ 11:44am

      "Zionazi"

      Another supreme example of how nazi has become a generic evil or derisive such as feminazi

      Your Führer's charred remains is rolling in his grave that you would dare associate Jewry with his Aesirian Reign.

      As for holocausts and purges, it kinda paints a stark picture of who you are in that you hope for one. I fear the coming future is soon to not disappoint.

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

      • identicon
        Rog S., aka Judediah Pinkerton Benjamins, 11 May 2019 @ 8:51pm

        Re: "Zionazi"

        My Fuhrer? Dude, my ancestors fled the bolshevik purges, fleeing from crazed Jews; and that, with the assistance of other Jews, so I dont know what you are on about.

        And, last I checked, it was Jews like Milos Yiannopoulous leading the fabled altRight, and nutcase professors named Mdlarsky waging swastihoaxes on themselves.

        Then theres the great threat that "all Jews " are under from mad bombers....like this mad bomber from Israel. A Jewish kid, of course.

        Of course! (on Yahoo, lol ):

        https://news.yahoo.com/jews-israelis-fear-fallout-bomb-hoax-arrest-041158740.html

        Dude /ette, IT AINT NAZIS THAT ARE WAGING THE SURVEILLANCE STATE, or led us to Iraq, or Guantanamo, or the Supermax prisons where all the alphabet agencies dirty deed doers and scapegoats go to die.

        Its good little menschies like Zuckergberg, et al.

        So, yeah: maybe you can dig up the pigskin and pink chiffon coffin of Edward Bernays and the two of you can invent a new word, but I like "ZioNazis" to describe this centuries latest incarnation of FASCISM, because it is these that are doing all of the above.

        But realpolitik doesnt give a shit if you call it a purge, or a holocaust, because in fact, its just payback and militant capitalism, one to the other, century after century, like reruns of Tom and Jerry.

        And it happens because of what I stated above: lies and more damned lies.

        Call it Wiley Coyote and Roadrunner, Pinky and the Brain, or even Netanyahu and globalism etc... but, yeah, call it by its proper name, ad nauseum. ad infinitum.

        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

        • icon
          Uriel-238 (profile), 12 May 2019 @ 1:34pm

          Jewish conspiracies, etc.

          I thought the bolshevik purges were enacted by an institution that had banned religion entirely, including Judaism. It's a moment often pointed to by sectarians that's supposed to illustrate the ills of atheism and secularism. I haven't studied the Soviet purges as much as I like. But in Barbarossa, yes, the SS often were able to illicit help from the people to massacre the Jews. Were all those malcontents also Jews?

          IT AIN'T NAZIS THAT ARE WAGING THE SURVEILLANCE STATE, or led us to Iraq, or Guantanamo, or the Supermax prisons where all the alphabet agencies dirty deed doers and scapegoats go to die.

          Lessee, the Operation Iraqi Freedom and the detention facility on Guantanimo were both implemented by the George W. Bush administation who was advised by all spiritual advisors except those of his own church that the assault to overthrown Hussein was not a just war. Even rabbis told him it was a bad idea. It was also his administration that started detaining and torturing enemy combatants in violation of the Geneva Conventions. His administration also implemented the wiretap-friendly secret interpretations of law that lead to the surveillance state we have today. Bush and Cheney are United Methodists. The guys who developed the CIA Extradjudicial Detention and Interrogation Program are bishops in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and have openly admitted they're comfortable with the torture they facilitated.

          The secret supermax prisons (not to be confused with black sites) are one of the solutions the Obama administration utilized to contain detainees the US state is unwilling to set free. (Why the US can't just set them free is classified, but they strongly imply doing so would cause calamity). The Obama administration was trying to empty the detention center so it could be closed. And yes, I am sure the secret prison cells in the US are being abused.

          None of these are Jews. Prescott Bush admired Hitler, was Nazi-sympathetic, and wanted even to implement fascism here in the states, but I don't blame George W. or even George H. W. for how their patriarch felt. I do blame George W. for the torture programs. The Bush family is also closely connected with the Saudi family and they're not particular to Jews either, or at least to pro-Israel Jews. (Plenty of Jews are as critical about Israel state policy as we Americans can be about US policy.)

          Rog S it seems you're doing that thing assuming that a feature that is common between some examples is correlative, and that a bad few serve to exemplify the many. If we applied the same logic to all incidents then we could assume as a society that large institutions are ultimately corrupt and self-serving, and that businesses (including churches) are antagonistic to their customer base, ultimately seeking to coerce and enslave the ones use their wares. There's lots more evidence for these indictments rather than the notion that the Alt-Right is fueled by a Jewish conspiracy of agents provocateur. We could assume that the United States with its American Exceptionalism has the same self-interested imperialist motivations as the Islamic State, and has no moral high ground, and in fact is just as cruel and inhumane to its occupied satellites.

          If we could assume that all cops were unrepentant racists and killers we could disband the departments of justice from the feds down to the last small-town precinct. Or at least recognize that we are serfs in a neo-feudal system, oppressed by no less force than the barrel of a gun.

          I like "ZioNazis" to describe this centuries latest incarnation of FASCISM

          When you give stupid names to a group, it indicates you disrespect the identity to the point that you'd question any of their arguments. That works with rattlesnakes, maybe, but not with people, who even when grouped never are a monolithic front. Even Nazis tell the truth and make valid points sometimes. I suppose, if we are to believe Trump, giving people dumb nicknames makes spurious arguments easier on the throat for the oblivious angry mobs being fed them.

          reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

          • identicon
            Rog S. aka Hasbara BING....O, 12 May 2019 @ 9:42pm

            Re: Jewish conspiracies, etc.

            Well, if the shoe fits....heres a pair of water moccasins for you to wear proudly.

            No sane person believes that all rattlesnakes are the same, especially when we consider things like breeding /nesting, or seasonal changes in behavior.

            Equally, no sane person believes that rabbis are anything BUT sane, in context to their buhliefs systems, if not a bit more highly equivocating on issues like lil ' ol ' equivocating Israel. Oh, and pre -emptive war, to protect the breeding grounds, what is called a lekk in evolutionary biology.

            And thats where you get a full Rogs Hasbara BINGO.

            Because, yup no sane person doubts that our ZIONAZI pals there, along with their scummy billionaires are who lied and chicken littled us into Iraq, etc, ad nauseum.

            So, along with what you call American exceptionalism, comes that other white meat, Jewish exceptionalism, which is really the ultimate taboo.

            Jewish supremacy, linked to white privilege, and Jewish -christian religions and hegemony are the feul that starts the fires, aka wars, that we see in the west.

            Make no mistake, the Saudis are creepy, but note that they are themselves a creation of sorts, an old argument between British imperialists, and some donmeh Jews perhaps, and hell, maybe throw in good ol 'Lord Rothschild and some red shields for fun and flames.

            But I didnt invent the term ZIONAZI, it nearly invented itself when the face of collusion between Prescotts spawn, and uberJewish neocons colluded to create our current surveillance state.

            Then, add some speech policing, and deplatforming, combined with the crushing of dissent via Israelified domestic spying from Silicon Valleys branch of the ADL....well, its a complete hasbara bingo.

            The word it spells is: Z -I -O -.....well, you get the idea.

            reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

          • identicon
            Rog S.R aka Karl Maxprisons, 12 May 2019 @ 9:59pm

            Re: Jewish conspiracies, etc.

            The institution you mention that was responsible for Holodmor and various gulags and death camps in Russia was properly called “Jewish intellectualism "instituting itself via Ich Du and some Marx tossed in, to make it appear more people friendly.

            SOME peoples people.

            It was a good idea, with a debateable outcome, which the world KAMPFs with today, lol.

            And, I watched Fiddler On the Roof, and probably cried as hard as you did when poor Tevya lost a few shekkels betting on the wrong horse.

            http://hatikvah4secularjews.com/fiddler.html

            Or, not. My tears bank had been robbed by that point by what the news called "hispanic looking " men, who remain at large to this very day... .

            reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

          • identicon
            Rog S., 13 May 2019 @ 10:46am

            Re: Jewish conspiracies, etc.

            Naschi, you are surprisingly, uncharacteristically, silent the last two days.
            Why is that? !?!

            But here is a journalist could use some help:

            Journalist targeted by San Fran PD Dianne Feinsteins bitches ) for covering the mysterious death of an Asian American public defender, named Adachi.

            Go fundme:
            https://www.gofundme.com/journalist-raided-by-police-support-1st-amendment

            Its curious how the name Adachi travels, and more curious how it challenges ADL narrative exploitation.

            Ken Adachi maintained a website that reported OGS too.

            Is he not tribal enough for “people like you ” to lend a hand?

            Or are you busy there in Gaza/TelAviv , misleading "the masses? "

            reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

            • icon
              nasch (profile), 13 May 2019 @ 11:28am

              Re: Re: Jewish conspiracies, etc.

              You're going to have to do a lot better than a single police raid, whether justified or not, if you want to convince anyone gang stalking is real. Got anything else?

              reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

              • identicon
                Anonymous Coward, 17 May 2019 @ 1:19am

                Re: Re: Re: Jewish -christian conspiracies, etc.

                There, fixed it for ya

                reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

              • identicon
                Punisher ROG S., 17 May 2019 @ 1:24am

                Re: Re: Re: Jewish conspiracies, etc.

                I have lots. I have presented it here and elswhere, for many years.

                Are you willing to investigate it? Or lend resources to expose /prosecute /legislate against it?

                Otherwise, why ask?

                Seei.g as you are sort of.knee.jerky and sectarian, Google Moss Posner and that topic.

                I can walk you through the military grade disinformation.

                reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

                • identicon
                  Punisher ROG S., 17 May 2019 @ 5:34am

                  Re: Re: Re: Re: Jewish-christian conspiracies, etc.

                  https://blog.suarezinternational.com/2018/08/final-police-report-on-las-vegas-shooting-my-thoughts.h tml

                  Quoting Suarez:
                  *A man in a hotel room shooting people is what it is...an opportunity for me to express who I am by kicking in his door and killing him. There really are no other options are there? If you are in the kill zone...well...nothing to do but run, duck and cover and hope you don't get hit. Too bad you went there.

                  I always look at bullshit delivered with two concepts in mind -

                  1). Who profits
                  2). Occam's Razor

                  In this case...in the 21st century, with the paradigms of conflict today, the bad guy was either a crazy guy terrorist, or a politically/religiously motivated terrorist.*

                  The evidence is there, Yugioh, if you get unside the minds of those who view every situation as turrerrisms.

                  reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

                  • icon
                    nasch (profile), 17 May 2019 @ 7:39am

                    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Jewish-christian conspiracies, etc.

                    I think I'm done discussing this with you. I don't mean to be offensive but you seem to have a very disordered mind. You posted some guy's opinion about a terrorist attack, and 1) there is no evidence of anything at all presented, it's just his opinions 2) it has nothing whatsoever to do with gang stalking, just vague insinuations about international terrorism and 3) the only apparent connection between these two things you've posted and the supposed topic at hand is a mention of Occam's Razor, which is at best two steps removed from relevance. I am guessing you see these as some kind of refutation, but that's so far off the tracks I can't even follow your "reasoning". So you can post whatever you want, but I won't be responding further. If you would like to take that as a victory, well I can't stop you.

                    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

                    • identicon
                      Rog S., 17 May 2019 @ 10:08pm

                      Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Jewish-christian conspiracies, etc.

                      Nasch, I will indeed take that as a victory.

                      The court of public opinion can judge your complete failure to engage with any evidence whatsoever, much less create any significant counter argument.

                      Yeah, and as for your sniping about disordered minds, interesting isnt it how you engage in evidence free pop psychology.

                      Or maybe, just a touch of passive aggressive psycho -sadism on your part.

                      And guess what? The ROGS model of gang stalking denialists predicts just that EXACTscientific outcome.

                      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

                  • icon
                    Uriel-238 (profile), 17 May 2019 @ 11:34am

                    Good guys with guns

                    A man in a hotel room shooting people is what it is...an opportunity for me to express who I am by kicking in his door and killing him.

                    I coined a phrase for this kind of thinking Little Heydrichs, people who imagine they are tough warriors who can face off with a gunman (or whatever kind of major jerk to society) and shoot them in the face like Bruce Willis in a revenge thriller. Reinhard Heydrich himself was known to fall faint in the face of the horror of the mass executions (MP 40 at close range over a pre-dug mass grave) by the Einsatzgruppen. It was crushing to the morale of the troopers who had sworn to be tough enough to face such horrors. This led to later use of gas vans and eventually the industrialized holocaust machine (the showers and ovens). Not that these made the monstrosity of managing dozens (or thousands) of human corpses any less, but fewer shlubs had to be exposed directly to them, and the Heydrichs and Eichmanns were free to talk about them in euphemistic terms in their office finery.

                    Cut to the modern day where vets come home having lost a part of themselves in killing an enemy, even when that enemy needed to be killed, even when it was a matter of survival. It's as tragic as miscarriage and it shows us men who kill often have to cry. And also we have those vets who call themselves cowards for not being able to pull the trigger. They cry too, curiously, its the discovery that they love too much the part of themselves that would die in killing someone else.

                    We fantasize about good guys with guns. Sometimes we fantasize about ourselves being that good guy with a gun who will, in the face of a brutal enemy or a rampage killer pull the trigger and save the day. More foolishly still, we've had officials announce they'd happily volunteer as part of a firing squad for civilian executions. That moment of truth has way more gravitas than that, and it's a hard thing discovering it when facing the responsibility of ending the life of another human being, let alone the possibility that he may shoot you first.

                    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

                    • icon
                      nasch (profile), 17 May 2019 @ 12:48pm

                      Re: Good guys with guns

                      I had a friend describe an incident where he wondered if he was going to have to shoot his way out. He said he was prepared to do it, but he didn't know if he was prepared for the emotional consequences. Thankfully it ended without violence.

                      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

                    • identicon
                      Rog S., 17 May 2019 @ 10:37pm

                      Re: Good guys with guns

                      Uriel (your nym is that of an arch angel, written about in religious mystical, pseudo -historical narratives right? )

                      Walter Laak is a veteran, and a scapegoat for the Bush torture regime.

                      http://www.woundedtimes.org/2016/10/ptsd-on-trial-walter-laak.html?m=1

                      Laak was not only scapegoated via the Abu Ghraib thing, but he was gang stalked under the CVE “community policing" programs, finally going ballistic. He was framed as a threat, rather than a scapegoat.

                      Uriel, I appreciate your analyses. It reminds me of that Rod Steiger movie, The Seargent, where he kills a man in the trenches, and then, weeps as he holds the dead man.

                      But I dont give a shit about the Holicaust, gas vans, ir anything else from over 80 yearsago.

                      I care about what is happening now. I once was a peace activist, and now know that peace is not possible in war based Jewish christian cultures. I was targeted and harrassed by each and every Jewish -christian element from within those cultures for decades, after I wrote about a manufactured terrorist before Techdirt was even born, and before Glenn Greenwald, or Trevor Aaronson,or Tim Cushing et al. used that term.

                      So, this form of harrassment is how your society keeps the status quo, and keeps the constant threat scenario alive.

                      And, having chosen a life where I do not carry weapons, or even own them; and having been shot, stabbed, jumped and beaten by gangs of criminals on both sides of the law, while I fight bare handed, has taught me a few things about weapons.

                      And of those lessons, I think using words is the best option at all times.

                      And, while the news does not cover the topic, we see that whereas once our society actually acknowledged "the war at home "today, it is impossible to acknowledge it, because our country has no actual industry, or source of capital other than endless war.

                      But the vets who went to Iraq could have also chosen what I did, and stopped that war completely. They didnt do that.

                      And neither did I. So, yoohoo, poor killers, wawawawa....sounds a lot like VAWA.

                      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • identicon
    R欧冠, 11 May 2019 @ 8:06am

    Nasch the zioNazi

    In true zionazi fashion, nasch quotes the most widely discredited study on that topic ever.

    Dr. Lorraine Sheridan herself works in the Prison Industrial Complex, and her partner in crime David James is a buttboy for the police state.

    ZioNazis like you make Holocausts so fun, Nasch ;)

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]


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