New Study Says The Removal Of Craigslist Erotic Services Pages May Be Linked To An Increase In Murdered Females

from the for-the-good-of-the-many-or-whatever? dept

Under the guise of targeting sex traffickers, FOSTA has both done damage to Section 230 protections and sex workers' literal lives. The law has yet to result in any credible, sustained damage to human trafficking, but that hasn't stopped the bill's supporters from trotting out debunked numbers anytime they need a soundbite.

There will likely be no studies performed by the government to determine FOSTA's actual impact on sex trafficking, but plenty of academics are offering evidence that pushing sex work further underground is endangering the lives of sex workers. This is just the icing on the stupid, life-threatening cake as multiple law enforcement agencies -- including the DOJ itself -- pointed out passing FOSTA would make it more difficult to hunt down traffickers.

A study released in 2017 showed the introduction of erotic services section on Craiglist tracked with a 17% drop in female homicides across many major cities. Craigslist spent a few years being publicly vilified by public officials -- mainly states attorneys general -- before dumping its erotic services section (ERS). This didn't stop sex work or trafficking, but it did shift the focus away from Craiglist as everyone affected found other services to use.

A newly-released study [PDF] (via Sophie Cull) shows there's been a corresponding increase in female homicides since the point Craigslist dumped ERS. Online services -- enabled by Section 230 -- helped sex workers stay safe by reducing or eliminating a few of the more dangerous variables.

In the context of prostitution, online clearinghouses have the potential to improve safety by redirecting exchange through the clearinghouse and replacing more risky outdoor face-to-face transactions and/or other intermediaries (e.g., pimps) with indoor, direct transactions (Bass, 2015a,b). Matching online through the clearinghouse enables both sides of the market to discern the quality of the match ex ante, through such activities as informal screening, circulated black and white lists, and online reviews (Cunningham and Kendall, 2011b; Grant, 2009). This may provide the ability for sex workers to identify and screen out violent clients, law enforcement, and scammers.

The wholly expected happens when you take these safeguards away by eliminating online services, like Craigslist did in 2010.

[W]e find evidence that ERS significantly reduced female homicide rates by as much as 10-17 percent. We do not find evidence that this was a more general reduction in homicide, as ERS is unrelated to male murder, females killed by an intimate partner, or manslaughters. This strengthens our assessment that ERS-driven changes in sex markets were the primary driver of the reduction in female murders.

The study pulls from a number of data sets (including the FBI's annual crime reports), but notes there are still some limitations that prevent this from being an exact determination. For one, most homicide reports don't note whether the person killed was a sex worker. For another, the data lags because homicide reports date from the time the body was found, rather than the time the person was actually killed. From this underreported and laggy data, some inferences can be drawn, even if it's impossible to say for certain what percentage of female homicides involved sex workers. If anything, the buggy data may point to an even greater reduction in violence against sex workers via the introduction of online marketplaces.

Are these magnitudes plausible? It is difficult to answer this question given that the true incidence of prostitution homicides is unknown. Most datasets do not record whether a female victim of a homicide was a sex worker, and those that do suffer from severe underascertainment biases built into the data collection methods. To our knowledge there is only one study that has attempted to estimate the incidence of prostitution homicide as a share of female homicides (Brewer et al., 2006). The authors concluded that 2.7 percent of all female homicides are prostitution deaths by clients. But this study has significant limitations. It is based on select data only from Chicago, St. Louis, Washington state, North Carolina, the SHR, 33 urban counties for one cross-section, and Colorado Springs. The issue of underascertainment bias would conceivably hold, and maybe moreso, for this select sample. Thus we interpret their estimates to be, at best, a lower bound. Our estimate of a 10 percent reduction in female homicides does suggest, though, that ERS created an overwhelmingly safe environment for female sex workers — perhaps the safest in history.

This is not to suggest government officials and lawmakers pushing laws like FOSTA don't care about people's lives. But I'm not sure what counterargument they can provide for legislation that not only results in increased harm to (mostly) women, but also undercuts the immunity that has allowed the internet to thrive. I guess the old adage is being spun to read "It's better for dozens of sex workers to die than for third-party service providers to go free."

Filed Under: ads, fosta, homicides, murder, sex workers
Companies: backpage, craigslist


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  • icon
    Bamboo Harvester (profile), 6 Feb 2019 @ 9:47am

    Statistics...

    I'm no fan of FOSTA and the like, but this is about using statistical analysis of crime data to attempt to prove cause through correlation.

    It might very well be true. But the method used casts question on it's veracity.

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    • identicon
      Anonymous Coward, 6 Feb 2019 @ 9:56am

      Re: Statistics...

      No, correlation is not causation.

      Yes, correlation should usually increase your degree of belief in causation, especially when you see a large effect and no other obviously related variables have changed.

      In fact, even in a controlled experiment, you can't really ever know that there are no confounding variables, and all you can directly observe is correlation.

      Social science overinterprets data all the time, but this is relatively restrained compared to most of what they do. This is a relatively good example of a "natural experiment". And social scientists are kind of weak on understanding how statistics work (as opposed to understanding how to mechanically apply statistical methods). But they're not as ignorant as the "correlation is not causation" brigade.

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      • icon
        Bamboo Harvester (profile), 6 Feb 2019 @ 10:04am

        Re: Re: Statistics...

        As I said, it's the method that causes doubt.

        I've seen similar "studies" of the UCR violent crime data. Which "prove" that we could reduce violent crime by 90% in the US by simply killing off all the blacks and hispanics. If a 90% reduction isn't good enough, kill off everyone but the asians and you'll see a 99% reduction. You can keep going with the method until there's nobody in the US but three Eskimos - so long as they live 1500 miles apart...

        Same for "gun control", DUI, anything you care to name.

        It's simply not a good method of study, it's most often used to "prove" a predetermined mindset.

        I

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        • identicon
          Anonymous Coward, 6 Feb 2019 @ 10:07am

          Re: Re: Re: Statistics...

          Sorry, but the accepted analogy is that Global Warming has caused a reduction in the world population of pirates.

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        • identicon
          Anonymous Coward, 6 Feb 2019 @ 10:09am

          Re: Re: Re: Statistics...

          From an evolutionary standpoint, that is probably correct, but we like our farm-animal labor disguised as civilized human beings so we allow thugs, slugs, and lowlifes with nothing to offer intellectually to exist, and insulting them tends to provoke them. We act as if being randomly assaulted, shot, stabbed, or killed is just a necessary evil when, if we wanted to, we could legislate that behavior out of the gene pool. We'll get there one day. Took a while for murder to be illegal way back when. We are clearly trending towards nonviolence.

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          • identicon
            Bobo, 6 Feb 2019 @ 11:10am

            Re: Re: Re: Re: Statistics...

            Yikes. Take it down a notch, Hitler.

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            • identicon
              Pogrom Director, 7 Feb 2019 @ 7:56am

              Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Statistics...

              Yeah! Take that, badguys!

              If you would only go to church, and accept that being born in shitty circumstances, and being taught shitty things by a shitty social system, where the deck is stacked against you in what amounts to a two tiered society of corrupt insiders constantly targeting outsiders /peonage system /Slavery By Another Name/MIC /PIC /DVIC -which you will NEVER get out of- well, just accept that we are the goid peeple, and you, something else.

              yeah.... thats why your the bad guys, and we have un-naturally and amorally targeted you, and databased you from birth.

              We do this every 50-100 years, cuz we are the shepherds, and you are the sheeple.

              Get used to it already! Signed -

              The Chosen Ones

              reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

          • identicon
            Nice Catholic/Mormon /Evangelical Boy, 7 Feb 2019 @ 8:17am

            Re: Re: Re: Re: Statistics...

            Yeah! Take that, badguys!

            If you would only go to church, and accept that being born in shitty circumstances, and being taught shitty things by a shitty social system, where the deck is stacked against you in what amounts to a two tiered society of corrupt insiders constantly targeting outsiders /peonage system /Slavery By Another Name/MIC /PIC /DVIC -which you will NEVER get out of- well, just accept that we are the goid peeple, and you, something else

            yeah.... thats why your the bad guys, and we have un-naturally and amorally targeted you, and databased you from birth.

            We do this every 50-100 years, cuz we are the shepherds, and you are the sheeple.

            Get used to it already! Signed -

            The Chosen Ones

            reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

        • identicon
          Anonymous Coward, 6 Feb 2019 @ 10:10am

          Re: Re: Re: Statistics...

          Well since it's off-limits to draw conclusions based on race, even if the study were accurate, it's just not allowed.

          reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

        • icon
          Ninja (profile), 6 Feb 2019 @ 10:50am

          Re: Re: Re: Statistics...

          I would agree with you IF there wasn't a similar increase in the death toll of female sex workers after ERS was terminated. It isn't a single event. It's the introduction and then the termination of the service and both were followed by significant changes in the murder rates. Can you point any other event that may have caused those changes that occurred exactly in the same period ERS was introduced and at the time it was shutdown?

          reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

          • icon
            Bamboo Harvester (profile), 6 Feb 2019 @ 11:45am

            Re: Re: Re: Re: Statistics...

            As I said, it could very well be true. It could even be 37%, 100% of which can be directly linked to FOSTA/Craigslist, but 20% was masked out by other events.

            It's the methodology of the study that casts doubt on the conclusion, simply because the same methods have been applied to statistical data to "prove" anything the statistician wanted.

            reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

            • icon
              Ninja (profile), 7 Feb 2019 @ 2:38am

              Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Statistics...

              What major event could cause 10-17% decrease and then 10-17% increase in women deaths at the exact same period? Because such an increase/decrease in a short time frame can only be explained by something major even if it flies under the radar. I've done some research and there seems to be no other possible cause for it.

              reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

        • identicon
          Anonymous Coward, 6 Feb 2019 @ 11:01am

          Re: Re: Re: Statistics...

          I've seen similar "studies" of the UCR violent crime data. Which "prove" that we could reduce violent crime by 90% in the US by simply killing off all the blacks and hispanics.

          If you don't understand why this isn't similar, you are not worth arguing with.

          Do you even know what a confounding variable is? Are you familiar with the term "natural experiment"? How much DO you know about causality in statistics? If you can't point to a confounding variable in a causal network diagram without thinking about it, then you are not qualified to have an opinion here.

          reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • identicon
    Sok Puppette, 6 Feb 2019 @ 9:48am

    This is not to suggest government officials and lawmakers pushing laws like FOSTA don't care about people's lives.

    What, you mean as compared to protecting themselves from having to examine their prejudices? Or compared to their need to see demonstrations of respect for Authority(TM), preferably their own?

    No, obviously people's lives aren't remotely as important as those things.

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  • identicon
    anonymouse, 6 Feb 2019 @ 9:50am

    Thanks Kamala Harris!

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

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    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 6 Feb 2019 @ 10:12am

    This was done to stop child sex trafficking.

    Many women were assaulted by Craigslist customers. The risks are always there when women try to get money that way. That boring, nice guy who used to provide a modest but safe and respectable lifestyle was written off as a loser.

    FOSTA is a good law. "Sex workers" were deluding themselves into thinking they were mainstream and legitimate because they were all connected on the internet.

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • identicon
      Anonymous Coward, 6 Feb 2019 @ 10:50am

      Re:

      This was done to stop child sex trafficking.

      ... and was almost certainly nearly totally ineffective in doing so... for ANY definition you want to use for "child sex trafficking". The reason you do something doesn't have anything to do with how effective it is.

      You have presented no evidence at all that it has been or ever will be effective in that, and there's every common-sense reason to believe that it hasn't and won't.

      I wonder if they broke teen girls out of "female homicides". Maybe you can go and look up how many children your law has gotten killed.

      Many women were assaulted by Craigslist customers.

      And even more women are apparently being assaulted, and killed, now that they don't even have Craigslist.

      Nobody's claimed that Craigslist was perfect. Everybody who has any experience with both still says that it was safer than street prostitution.

      The alternative to Craigslist isn't "no prostitution". It's usually street prostitution. Which is more likely to get you killed. Like everybody who has any actual knowledge or experience has been telling you.

      That boring, nice guy who used to provide a modest but safe and respectable lifestyle was written off as a loser.

      I don't know what the fuck that's supposed to be about. My best guess is that it's some incel fantasy bullshit.

      Approximately nobody in the history of ever has thought "Wow, Bill is so boring. I know, I'll become a prostitute". Now you'll show me some article about one weird outlier who has. And the reason that will be intersting enough to be an article is that it's VANISHINGLY RARE and therefore a stupid thing to use to make policy.

      Many people HAVE chosen prostitution as the best among limited options. You apparently want to take that away from them and thereby force them to some worse option. And apparently they think that even prostitution that is SHOWN TO BE GETTING MORE OF THEM KILLED is still better than whatever the hell else you want to force them into.

      There are even some people who pick prostitution because they see it as better than a maybe-less-limited set of options. But your "nice guy" fantasy, whatever it really means, has absolutely fuck-all to do with anything.

      "Sex workers" were deluding themselves into thinking they were mainstream and legitimate because they were all connected on the internet.

      Well, they won't have that problem now, because it's harder to delude yourself when you're dead. Good work saving them there, Ace.

      And you're an arrogant moron for thinking that most people who do choose prostitution don't know the risks, on or off of Craigslist.

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      • identicon
        Anonymous Coward, 6 Feb 2019 @ 10:56am

        Re: Re:

        Privacy kills millions because it allows criminals to operate while cloaked. Objectively, it should be abolished, but we're not there yet.

        We've traded privacy for safety.

        Without privacy, no one could commit crimes very easily.

        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

        • identicon
          Anonymous Coward, 6 Feb 2019 @ 11:03am

          Re: Re: Re:

          Could it be that you are one hundred and eighty degrees out of sync with reality?

          reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

        • identicon
          Anonymous Coward, 6 Feb 2019 @ 11:04am

          Re: Re: Re:

          Error. Irrelevance threshold exceeded. Please rewrite your comment to relate it to something somewhere.

          reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

        • identicon
          Anonymous Coward, 6 Feb 2019 @ 11:53am

          Re: Re: Re:

          Oh Jhon boy. You mad because it made it harder to be a John.

          reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

        • identicon
          Anonymous Coward, 6 Feb 2019 @ 6:11pm

          Re: Re: Re:

          You could always be a pioneer and nuke your own privacy. Clearly safety isn't that valuable to you. I mean, how else are we going to know which great author is getting pirated, and throwing the police at anonymous commenters?

          Go on, tell everybody who you really are. Show the court on the doll where Masnick touched you.

          Egads, but you copyright-types don't have a brain cell to share amongst yourselves...

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        • icon
          Not an Electronic Rodent (profile), 7 Feb 2019 @ 7:39am

          Re: Re: Re:

          We've traded privacy for safety.

          "We've traded actual privacy for imaginary safety.

          FTFY

          Without privacy, no one could commit crimes very easily.

          I can think of at least one person who has very publicly admitted to or committed several crimes and seems to be OK with it... Not sure that reasoning is sound.

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    • icon
      Ninja (profile), 6 Feb 2019 @ 10:58am

      Re:

      "This was done to stop child sex trafficking." We are still waiting for two things: 1- evidence that child sex trafficking was rampant in these services and 2- evidence that it decreased the activity enough to justify the extra 10-17% deaths the closure/FOSTA caused.

      "Many women were assaulted by Craigslist customers." Same with Uber, shall we ban Uber? I'll ask you another set of questions: 3- did the fact they were registered at Craiglist make it easier to find such criminals? 4- were the cases of women being assaulted by customers higher than the added 10-17% deaths that it seems the closure of ERS caused?

      "FOSTA is a good law. "Sex workers" were deluding themselves into thinking they were mainstream and legitimate because they were all connected on the internet." More questions: 5- A law that causes more deaths is good in which way? 6- What is the problem of them being protected and mainstream? 7- Do you really think pushing socially accepted and demanded professions underground is going to stop them? If yes, please comment on the alcohol prohibition from the start of last century and how successful it was and also on how the war on drugs, specially marijuana, has been doing.

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

      • icon
        Wendy Cockcroft (profile), 8 Feb 2019 @ 5:53am

        Re: Re:

        Child sex trafficking was easier to detect prior to FOSTA and missing kids were rescued by cops trawling sites such as Backpage and Craigslist. Now that those valuable tools are gone, who knows what's going on since there are fewer tracking resources available?

        FOSTA is a law made for the appearance of the thing, not the thing itself. It has caused more problems than it solved.

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    • identicon
      Anonymous Coward, 6 Feb 2019 @ 11:01am

      Re:

      "The risks are always there when women try to get money that way. "

      The risks are always there for women. -ftfy

      The remainder of your post is a bit confusing while at the same time somewhat concerning.

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    • icon
      cattress (profile), 6 Feb 2019 @ 8:29pm

      Re:

      Can anyone tell me where all these predators that want to do awful sex things to children are hiding in our society? I am not saying they don't exist, I'm just saying that the amount of legislation and media reporting make it seem like most normal looking men I encounter are secretly monsters. I mean, the vast majority of children victimized are hurt by trusted people they know, like coaches and doctors and priests. Anyone who thinks our president isn't exaggerating (like the Qanon folks) when he talks about thousands of women and children from South America being trafficked here for sex slavery should be far more concerned that the US has such a demand than about the coyotes trying bring the supply (and why would women and children come here for asylum if there are so many predators?) Again, I acknowledge that there are victims, I'm not dismissing them and I want justice for them. But all of this sex trafficking nonsense is just another avenue to control women and punish them for not conforming to social norms.

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

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    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 6 Feb 2019 @ 10:15am

    Of course FOSTA eliminates a lot of online advertising money for GOOGLE...

    que bono GOOGLE?

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    • identicon
      Rocky, 6 Feb 2019 @ 10:31am

      Re:

      AFAIK Google doesn't carry personal ads, so how they lost advertising revenue because of FOSTA would be an interesting tale.

      Care to enlighten us?

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      • identicon
        Anonymous Coward, 6 Feb 2019 @ 12:30pm

        Re: Re:

        Google carries ads relating to anything they can sell.

        Their ad revenue didn't increase because of FOSTA. Same with those big mergers this site rails against: one less big company spending money.

        Google revenue has been down and expenditures have been up.

        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

        • identicon
          Anonymous Coward, 6 Feb 2019 @ 12:55pm

          Re: Re: Re:

          Objection: Lack of relevance to the discussion.

          reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

        • identicon
          Rocky, 6 Feb 2019 @ 1:15pm

          Re: Re: Re:

          Google carries ads relating to anything they can sell.

          Actually they don't and there is no personal ads at all on Googles ad-network (since it is against Googles ad policy). Your unfounded belief is not fact.

          Their ad revenue didn't increase because of FOSTA. Same with those big mergers this site rails against: one less big company spending money.

          Google revenue has been down and expenditures have been up.

          The ad revenue went down? That's funny, the Q4 report said the revenue went up 20%. See https://abc.xyz/investor/static/pdf/2018Q4_alphabet_earnings_release.pdf?cache=adc3b38

          Also, that CAPEX went up in 2018 is nothing strange since they have been investing in new offices, data-centers and under sea cables among other things. Just the Chelsea Market purchase cost $2.4 billion.

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  • identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 6 Feb 2019 @ 10:42am

    Yep brought to you by the same assholes who say walls don't work . keep electing morons who ideas are "we proudly stick our heads in the sands as a matter of course " cause if we can't see or hear it it must not be happening

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    • identicon
      Anonymous Coward, 6 Feb 2019 @ 11:06am

      Re:

      Walls are easily circumvented, what do you have that suggests otherwise?

      "keep electing morons who ideas are "we proudly stick our heads in the sands as a matter of course " cause if we can't see or hear it it must not be happening"

      I will not vote for those GOP types who conveniently look the other way.

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      • identicon
        Digitari, 6 Feb 2019 @ 2:35pm

        Re: Re:

        Your house? Or do live in a tent? How about where you work, do they have walls? What about banks? Or hospitals?

        You're correct, walls never work, tear down everything

        Stupid should be painfull

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    • icon
      Toom1275 (profile), 6 Feb 2019 @ 11:58am

      Re:

      "assholes" "who say 'walls don't work""

      ERROR: improper combination of mutually contradictory concepts.

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  • icon
    Ninja (profile), 6 Feb 2019 @ 10:46am

    So basically those grandstanding against letting sex workers use online services and for FOSTA are aiding murderers. Pretty nice to have blood in your hands eh? You may not be pulling the trigger but you are putting the girls in front of the guns.

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    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 6 Feb 2019 @ 10:57am

    Sex work should be restricted to underground red-light districts lest it go mainstream and metastasize.

    I doubt this has caused many extra murders at all. Crime in general has been up the past two years.

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • icon
      Ninja (profile), 6 Feb 2019 @ 11:02am

      Re:

      "I see the evidence but I don't agree with it because I am awesome and a complete bigot." Fixed your comment for you.

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

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        identicon
        Anonymous Coward, 6 Feb 2019 @ 11:05am

        Re: Re:

        More like I evaluate both scenarios and pefer FOSTA. Studies can be manipulated, incorrect, incomplete, etc.

        There was a serial killer who targeted Craigslist prostitutes.

        No one is forcing women into this life. Are GAY prostitutes getting murdered more now?

        I do not believe in enabling crime, especially when that crime involves child sex trafficking.

        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

        • identicon
          Rocky, 6 Feb 2019 @ 11:43am

          Re: Re: Re:

          More like I evaluate both scenarios and pefer FOSTA. Studies can be manipulated, incorrect, incomplete, etc.

          So you have run a comparative study then? Fine, lets see it but be aware that we may judge it to be manipulated, incorrect and incomplete.

          There was a serial killer who targeted Craigslist prostitutes.

          There has been SEVERAL serial killers who targeted street prostitutes. What's you point?

          No one is forcing women into this life. Are GAY prostitutes getting murdered more now?

          How do you know what makes people prostitute themselves? It's not like it's the first choice of profession for most people. Please enlighten us with your expansive knowledge!

          I do not believe in enabling crime, especially when that crime involves child sex trafficking.

          Did FOSTA stop child trafficking in any way? Can you with certainty say that FOSTA helped? Did crime drop? Remember, you have to have ironclad evidence since you believe any studies may be incorrect etc.

          What you believe doesn't count.

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            identicon
            Anonymous Coward, 6 Feb 2019 @ 12:29pm

            Re: Re: Re: Re:

            What YOU believe doesn't count either.

            We're not lawmakers.

            I have no use for sexwork. Its many negatives are obvious.

            This captain-save-a-ho routine is funny.

            reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

            • identicon
              Rocky, 6 Feb 2019 @ 1:33pm

              Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

              What YOU believe doesn't count either.

              I haven't stated a belief, I questioned your evaluation that you prefer FOSTA because "studies can be manipulated, incorrect, incomplete, etc.".

              Also, I questioned your anecdotal reference to a serial killer targeting "Craigslist prostitutes".

              Further, I questioned your belief that FOSTA stopped crime.

              I'll choose to trust a study which is based on real world statistics which has an average to good confidence level before the "belief" of anyone who can't even understand that some people has so few choices that the only good one is to prostitute themselves.

              This captain-save-a-ho routine is funny.

              Well, thank you for your compliment. Because I'm a human being that has empathy I do believe in saving others, only assholes thinks it's funny though.

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        • icon
          Ninja (profile), 6 Feb 2019 @ 11:44am

          Re: Re: Re:

          "Studies can be manipulated, incorrect, incomplete, etc." The data is public, you are free to go show the contrary. You can't.

          "There was a serial killer who targeted Craigslist prostitutes." He targeted prostitutes. Now he is killing them on the streets because they can't even filter their customers based on ratings from others. Also, I'd like to see evidence this was rampant on Craiglist (because it wasn't) and how many had such problems against the 10-17% added deaths afterwards.

          "No one is forcing women into this life." But people like you actively try to make their lives more miserable, harder and less safe when they choose to live that life.

          "I do not believe in enabling crime, especially when that crime involves child sex trafficking." But you seem to believe it's ok for more girls to die if you don't agree with what they do. While we are at it, let's forbid cars, weapons and the whole internet because they enable crime, shall we?

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          • identicon
            Anonymous Coward, 6 Feb 2019 @ 12:25pm

            Re: Re: Re: Re:

            Any man who would let himself be vetted by a hooker is not very smart.

            That's equally insane or amusing.

            That the work is so dangerous says it doesn't appeal to decent men. If most of the customers are decent, they should be exceptionally valued by the workers, yet they aren't. The women beta-bash all the time then complain that the alphas make it too dangerous.

            reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

            • identicon
              Anonymous Coward, 6 Feb 2019 @ 1:31pm

              Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

              That the work is so dangerous says it doesn't appeal to decent men.

              Taxi drivers get killed by customers all the time. I guess decent people must not use taxis.

              The women beta-bash all the time then complain that the alphas make it too dangerous.

              Somebody's personal problems are showing.

              reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

            • identicon
              Rocky, 6 Feb 2019 @ 1:49pm

              Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

              Any man who would let himself be vetted by a hooker is not very smart.

              Okay genius, which is worse for a prostitute: selling sex with less chance of getting beaten or murdered or selling sex with a higher chance of the aforementioned acts?

              Also, your statement would mean that 15-20% of the US male population is not very smart (see below), ie that between 24 to 32 million US males are below average intelligence.

              That the work is so dangerous says it doesn't appeal to decent men.

              Between 15 to 20% of US men has paid for sex (see https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/grants/222451.pdf). That means you know men who has paid for sex. Are all your friends decent men?

              If most of the customers are decent, they should be exceptionally valued by the workers, yet they aren't. The women beta-bash all the time then complain that the alphas make it too dangerous.

              And you base this assumption on?

              reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

            • icon
              Stephen T. Stone (profile), 6 Feb 2019 @ 4:41pm

              The women beta-bash all the time then complain that the alphas make it too dangerous.

              Holy shit, you’re actually a goddamn incel.

              reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

            • icon
              Ninja (profile), 7 Feb 2019 @ 2:46am

              Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

              "Any man who would let himself be vetted by a hooker is not very smart." Why? "That the work is so dangerous says it doesn't appeal to decent men." It appeals to me and I even had a nice time with my wife and sex workers (both male and female) and I can assure you I'm much more decent than many of your possible examples of "decent men" out there. And the work is not dangerous, society insists in making it dangerous. In fact sex workers tend to be quite diligent with their health and take regular check ups and won't do stuff without condoms exactly because of the health risks involved. I used to think like you but things changed when I found out a friend of mine was into such job and she educated me on many aspects I was squarely wrong.

              "If most of the customers are decent, they should be exceptionally valued by the workers, yet they aren't." Lousy workers exist anywhere, why would sex workers be different? I've had my share of bad ones which is why nowadays I settled with 2 that are good at their job.

              "The women beta-bash all the time then complain that the alphas make it too dangerous." I'm not sure what this is supposed to mean but I suspect it's pure bigotry.

              reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

              • icon
                Ninja (profile), 7 Feb 2019 @ 2:48am

                Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

                I have to get my markdown skills settled, the format of the comment is pretty crappy, I apologize.

                reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

                • icon
                  Gwiz (profile), 7 Feb 2019 @ 12:12pm

                  Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

                  Hey Ninja. I noticed you were asking on the Insider Chat about putting double line spaces in comments.

                  You can use a HTML nonbreakable linespace for that: (& n b s p ;) (no spaces or parenthesis)

                  This will give you blank two lines:

                  <enter key> nonbreakable linespace <enter key>

                  Like this:

                   

                  ▲ Two blank lines ▲

                  Hope this helps.

                  reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

                  • icon
                    Ninja (profile), 8 Feb 2019 @ 7:03am

                    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

                    I figured it  

                    after a few attempts. But in all seriousness it could be something simpler!  

                    Thanks for the tip

                    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

                    • icon
                      Ninja (profile), 8 Feb 2019 @ 7:04am

                      Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

                      Eh  

                      weird, in the preview it worked. Well, at some point I'll learn it heh.

                      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

                      • icon
                        Gwiz (profile), 8 Feb 2019 @ 9:06am

                        Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

                        weird, in the preview it worked.

                        Yeah, I agree that it would be nice if the preview rendered the comment exactly same as the regular pages do.

                        I guess they haven't gotten around to updating the preview page code yet.

                        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

            • identicon
              Anonymous Coward, 7 Feb 2019 @ 6:37am

              Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

              "Any man who would let himself be vetted by a hooker is not very smart."

              But he could be a stable genius - right?

              reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

          • This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it
            identicon
            Anonymous Coward, 6 Feb 2019 @ 12:27pm

            Re: Re: Re: Re:

            They are criminals, plain and simple. That's why what they do is illegal.

            Girls? um...

            The sex industry harms more men than women. Many customers are targeted for crime and if they give up personal information to be vetted, they might as well include a map to their home for the thug boyfriend and a key. Behind every sex worker is some mobbed-up violent thug.

            Decent people side with decency.

            reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

            • identicon
              Anonymous Coward, 6 Feb 2019 @ 12:57pm

              Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

              Pics or GTFO.

              reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

            • identicon
              Anonymous Coward, 6 Feb 2019 @ 1:23pm

              Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

              You just can’t help be an asshole as well as a liar can you. I have to wonder if the reason you hate sex workers is because you got caught, John.

              reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

              • identicon
                Anonymous Coward, 6 Feb 2019 @ 1:36pm

                Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

                I doubt that. Guys like this don't hire prostitutes; they want supermodels to spontaneously jump them.

                Even if he does have a problem with prostitutes because some experience with them, the problem is more likely that they won't work for him at all. The psycho scent is pretty strong on him, so it'd be more of an "attempted John" thing.

                Maybe he didn't like ERS because his reputation had gotten around there.

                reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

                • identicon
                  Anonymous Coward, 6 Feb 2019 @ 2:26pm

                  Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

                  True true. He does give of the super creep incel vibe here. I do think I will start referring to him as “attempted Jhon.” Thanks!

                  reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

                  • identicon
                    Anonymous Coward, 6 Feb 2019 @ 6:19pm

                    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

                    It's the same guy who pissed and moaned that MeToo stopped him from doing as his beloved president does and grabbing women by the genitals. What did you expect?

                    I'm more surprised that the authoritarian disconnect, from the fact that the very policemen he worships are now pointing out that FOSTA has made it even harder to police traffickers, hasn't caused the void he uses as a functioning brain to implode upon itself...

                    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

            • identicon
              Digitari, 6 Feb 2019 @ 2:53pm

              Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

              Decency and morals... Not subjective at all. Decent Americans owned slaves,it was moral to keep the savages in check. Decent Mezo-Americans removed enemies hearts, while the were alive. Decent Hipanics spread the word of thier God by burning and killing those that had never heard of him. It was the moral thing to do.

              Anyone that bring up morals and/or decency usually lack both

              reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

        • identicon
          Anonymous Coward, 6 Feb 2019 @ 11:55am

          Re: Re: Re:

          Citation from... oh who are we kidding we both know you are completely full of shit.

          reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

          • icon
            That One Guy (profile), 6 Feb 2019 @ 12:02pm

            Re: Re: Re: Re:

            By a funny coincidence that also happens to be what coats their assertions, as most if not all of them are pulled straight from their backside.

            reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

        • identicon
          Anonymous Coward, 6 Feb 2019 @ 1:27pm

          Re: Re: Re:

          Parent simultaneously believes:

          1. Child sex trafficking is all over the place.

          2. Nobody is forcing women into prostitution. Therefore, the day any of the victims turns 18, nobody will be forcing her into prostitution; if she stays, she'll be a filthy ho.

          Are GAY prostitutes getting murdered more now?

          Probably. Your point, idiot?

          reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • identicon
      Anonymous Coward, 6 Feb 2019 @ 11:11am

      Re:

      "Crime in general has been up the past two years"

      • For what country/State/County?
      • From where did this conclusion originate and from what data?

      Violent crime in the U.S. has fallen sharply over the past quarter century. Public perceptions about crime in the U.S. often don’t align with the data.

      http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/01/03/5-facts-about-crime-in-the-u-s/

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 6 Feb 2019 @ 11:50am

    even if this is true, the numb nut that forced the removal of the erotic services pages from Craigslist wont admit it or, just as bad, wont do anything to improve things. the data will be looked at to the comment of 'so?' the attitude being a complete disdain of women. i wonder what the wife thinks of that?

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • icon
      That One Guy (profile), 6 Feb 2019 @ 12:01pm

      Re:

      It was never about the victims they hid behind, instead this was always a cheap PR stunt for the politicians involved, and to hell with any 'collateral damage'.

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

      • This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it
        identicon
        Anonymous Coward, 6 Feb 2019 @ 12:23pm

        Re: Re:

        Sex workers spread crimes, even against children, disease, destroy marriage and families that are the building blocks of a civilized society, are owned by organized crime, cause trafficking, etc.

        That's why people like seeing laws against it. It's anathema to decency.

        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

        • identicon
          Anonymous Coward, 6 Feb 2019 @ 12:47pm

          Re: Re: Re:

          What type of sex worker(s) are you referring to?

          1) street walker 2) high priced hooker 3) russian bride on a genius visa 4) mistress 5) one night stand

          reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

        • identicon
          Anonymous Coward, 6 Feb 2019 @ 12:58pm

          Re: Re: Re:

          When making an assertion, please provide evidence to support the assertion.

          Or in other words

          Pics or GTFO.

          reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

        • identicon
          Anonymous Coward, 6 Feb 2019 @ 1:31pm

          Re: Re: Re:

          Sex workers spread crimes

          How does one spread a crime? It doesn't seem very spreadable.

          disease

          If sex work were legalized, it could be regulated so that the customers would be forced to wear protection, and the sex workers could be checked regularly for infections. Sex work only spreads disease because it's illegal.

          destroy marriage and families that are the building blocks of a civilized society

          How is it right to blame anyone for that but the person who betrays their spouse and family by cheating on them? If someone is willing to pay someone else for sex behind their partner's back, that marriage is already on the rocks.

          are owned by organized crime

          Sounds a lot like the alcohol business during Prohibition. I wonder how that industry was put back into the hands of legitimate business owners...

          cause trafficking

          Again, it's mainly because it's been forced out-of-sight that this can happen. If it were legal, it'd be easier to find the people who were being trafficked against heir will, because they wouldn't have cause to fear the police.

          reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

        • identicon
          Rocky, 6 Feb 2019 @ 2:01pm

          Re: Re: Re:

          Sex workers spread crimes, even against children, disease, destroy marriage and families that are the building blocks of a civilized society, are owned by organized crime, cause trafficking, etc.

          In a civilized society there would be no sex workers, no trafficking and hardly any organized crime.

          Maybe you should focus your efforts on actually helping people who fall through the very large cracks that exists in today's society instead of cheering on actions that make those cracks even wider.

          That's why people like seeing laws against it. It's anathema to decency.

          Decency is helping people down on their luck and to borrow a parable, it seems you are just like the priest and the Levite.

          reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

          • identicon
            Anonymous Coward, 7 Feb 2019 @ 1:44pm

            Re: Re: Re: Re:

            There have been sex workers in every society, civilized and un-.

            There will be sex workers in any society that has both people willing to pay money for sex, and people willing to receive money for sex.

            reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

            • icon
              Wendy Cockcroft (profile), 8 Feb 2019 @ 5:59am

              Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

              ^This. It is actually true whether we like it or not. Therefore, let's make it safer for everyone by decriminalising it.

              Ninja, Rocky, thank you for your comments, they're very informative.

              reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

            • identicon
              Rocky, 8 Feb 2019 @ 6:08am

              Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

              I should have been more clear, I meant that in a civilized society nobody would be forced to become a sex worker because it's the least bad choice they have.

              reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

              • icon
                Wendy Cockcroft (profile), 8 Feb 2019 @ 7:17am

                Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

                Agreed. Other options ought to be made available so people aren't forced into something they don't want to do to pay the rent.

                reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

        • identicon
          Anonymous Coward, 6 Feb 2019 @ 7:03pm

          Re: Re: Re:

          The definition of 'decency' from the so called 'moral' hypocrites are really nothing of the sort. Teach young men to drop fire from above but you can't write 'fuck' on the bombs because it is obscene. The poor deserve to suffer and be judged yet the wealthy and powerful are beyond reproach. Scorn the weak and kick those at the lowest but you are a good person because of how few people you fuck.

          reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

          • identicon
            Anonymous Coward, 6 Feb 2019 @ 9:21pm

            Re: Re: Re: Re:

            Well, unless you're rich. Then your measure of worth as a person is suddenly amplified by the number of affairs you have...

            reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

          • identicon
            Nice Catholic/Mormon /Evangelical Boy, 7 Feb 2019 @ 8:08am

            Re: Re: Re: Re:Amen

            I upvoted your comment, lol. This guy who keeps getting deplatformed here at Techdirt has never loved, nor been loved by any woman.

            But I bet he has a dog, who fears him. And for all the wrong reasons.....

            reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

        • icon
          That One Guy (profile), 7 Feb 2019 @ 4:07am

          Re: Re: Re:

          ... cause people to stub their toes, make puppies cry, increase global warming...

          Hey, making up shit is fun, I see why you do it all the time.

          reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • identicon
    Glenn, 6 Feb 2019 @ 12:58pm

    All you're saying is that the actual result lines up with the intended result.

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • icon
    Ed (profile), 7 Feb 2019 @ 7:50am

    Filed under, "Things that make you go, 'Duh!'"

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • icon
    restless94110 (profile), 7 Feb 2019 @ 3:51pm

    Anonymous Coward

    Can anyone tell me why Anonymous Coward represents over 50 percent of every comment field at Tech Dirt?

    Why on Earth is this troll, trolling? Who would ever read a thing he/she/it has to say, since he/she/it trolls so often that he/she/it clearly is a lunatic.

    I really don't understand. Why is Anonymous Coward not being reined in on this blog?

    Wake up, Tim, or whoever has finallly woken up to what I told you in the comments a year ago: shutting down Craigslist and Backpage is an attack on prostitution, sex traficking does not exist It's a codeword for prostitution.

    Finally you are coming around to a dim understanding. Congrats Now kick dirtbag Anonymous Coward to the curb, k?

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • icon
      That One Guy (profile), 8 Feb 2019 @ 5:21am

      Re: Anonymous Coward

      You... do realize that 'Anonymous Coward' is the default 'name' for anyone who posts without an account and who hasn't decided to choose a different name to comment under, right?

      If you meant a specific AC(who are anonymous only to the extent that people don't know their names, as various tells give them away easily enough) they are 'allowed' because TD's owners have chosen to make it an open forum for people to post on, even if that means the occasional delusional and/or dishonest troll infesting the comment section.

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

      • icon
        Wendy Cockcroft (profile), 8 Feb 2019 @ 6:01am

        Re: Re: Anonymous Coward

        The pushback gives people a chance to test their debating skills and to learn from the replies. I read through the comments on every post because I learn so much from them.

        Therefore, even the trolls have some value.

        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

        • icon
          That One Guy (profile), 8 Feb 2019 @ 6:31am

          Re: Re: Re: Anonymous Coward

          That, and the humor they can occasionally provide, and best of all, all without their intention.

          Come to rile people up and look tough, end up the laughingstocks of the site and tools for people to sharpen their skills on for honest debate and/or discussion.

          reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

          • icon
            Wendy Cockcroft (profile), 8 Feb 2019 @ 7:20am

            Re: Re: Re: Re: Anonymous Coward

            I must admit I have a lot of fun with scraptivism, that is, asking awkward questions to show the flaws in the stated positions of the people I'm arguing against. Calmest, most informative comments trump histrionic name-calling and/or blithe dismissal every time.

            reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • identicon
    Jax Rhapsody, 8 Feb 2019 @ 8:17am

    Fuck'm. Nobody should have to pay for sex, anyway and none of this would be an issue if pathetic, lowly, desperate men would find a backbone to go without until they can attain coitus a proper way. Let these women find real jobs.

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • icon
      cattress (profile), 8 Feb 2019 @ 7:15pm

      Re:

      Well if you're attitude is "fuck 'em" then you needn't concern yourself with advocating for laws on other people's private business that has no effect on you. You don't possess some unique moral or social authority to tell adults how to live their lives the right way. Mind your business

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]


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