Latest Denuvo Version Cracked Again By One Solo Hacker On A Personal Mission

from the crack-up dept

Denuvo is... look, just go read this trove of backlinks, because I've written far too many of these intros to be able to come up with one that is even remotely original. Rather than plagiarize myself, let me just assume that most of you know that Denuvo is a DRM that was once thought to be invincible but has since been broken in every iteration developed, with cracking times often now down to days and hours rather than weeks or months. Key in this post is that much if not most of the work cracking Denuvo has been done by a single person going by the handle Voksi. Voksi is notable not only for their nearly singlehandedly torpedoing the once-daunting Denuvo DRM, but also for their devotion to the gaming industry and developers that do things the right way, even going so far as to help them succeed.

Well, Voksi is back in the news again, having once again defeated the latest build of Denuvo DRM.

This week, Voksi announced the passing of yet another milestone, one that’s bound to disappoint the people at Denuvo. After sinking endless hours into what he openly admits is a personal grudge against the company’s technology, Voksi revealed that its latest v4.9++ protection had fallen. Speaking with TorrentFreak, Voksi says that after tackling previous versions, a little while back he began dissecting the newer 4.7/4.8 builds (not official Denuvo versions but a numbering system used by the cracking scene).

“Man, it seemed impossible back then. The obfuscation was insane, I had no idea what to do. So, over the next two months, with little breaks from time to time, I was analyzing exactly how [Denuvo] does those hardware checks,” he notes. “Then I tried my tricks for 4.7 on 4.8, but something wasn’t quite right. It was way more obfusticated and had some strange patterns and I couldn’t figure out why it was like that. Soon enough though in June things started to change.”

Now, while we generally dislike DRM here at Techdirt, we're not in the business of cheering on a crack-artist defeating any particular DRM. What is right in our wheelhouse, however, is discussing the overall impact of DRM and its effectiveness. We've spent hundreds of words already pointing out that this is an arms race every DRM maker loses, with Denuvo in particular falling at a rapid pace. With that in mind, we've wondered aloud why game companies even bother with any of this DRM nonsense, when they instead could be connecting with their customers and giving them real reasons to buy with innovative business models and engagement.

But this point must be most evident when it's noted that Voksi, a single individual, has nearly brought Denuvo to its knees as some insane sort of solo project.

What comes next for 21-year-old Voksi remains to be seen but given his determination, other games are probably being worked on right how. He says that several other titles use 4.9 or 4.9++ protection so it’s possible he’ll have more surprises in the days and weeks to come.

“In the end, it might take some more testing and test cracks, but I’m very happy to announce that I won’t stop until we are Denuvo Cancer Free from all games,” he concludes.

Whatever you might think of Voksi as an individual or DRM and game-cracking in general, what should be immediately apparent is that relying on DRM that is vulnerable to one 21 year old with enough motivation to kill it over and over again is a fairly shitty business practice in which to be engaged. And, yet, game companies still work with Denuvo and other DRM makers for reasons I cannot possibly fathom.

When one person negates that work, it's probably time to come up with a new plan.


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  1. icon
    Stephen T. Stone (profile), 11 Jul 2018 @ 4:11pm

    game companies still work with Denuvo and other DRM makers for reasons I cannot possibly fathom

    They would rather believe DRM is still effective than confront the truth of the matter, which is that they have invested in a money pit.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  2. identicon
    tp, 11 Jul 2018 @ 4:12pm

    Wasn't this activity already illegal?

    Apparently this Voksi didn't get the memo that said that DCMA made circumventing digital protection measures illegal. Why is it that we get this kind of news still after DCMA has been in effect for long time or are these teenagers not reading the lawbooks before going for their grudge-mission against the companies that create these digital protection measures / DRM systems.

    Obviously the whole DCMA saga with digital protection measures culminates the dvd-jon case where some kid broke the protections of the cdrom drives and made all the content protected via their unbreakable encryption which used the same key for every cdrom on the planet.

    This activity causes tons of damage if the information is published and available to pirates. I hope this voksi guy has enough brains to avoid the damage.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  3. icon
    PeterScott (profile), 11 Jul 2018 @ 4:16pm

    He is going to end up with mad code debugging skills.

    Fighting his way through purposefully obfuscated code, will give him extremely good skills debugging unintentionally obfuscated code, that lives in too many old large code bases.

    GOG is my only source of games, and CDPR have shown that the best way forward is respecting your customers.

    While I won't use his product. I cheer the dismantling of DRM, in hopes that more companies can see the light on respecting customers and selling DRM free games at GOG, which is the only way I will buy them.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  4. icon
    Anonymous Anonymous Coward (profile), 11 Jul 2018 @ 4:24pm

    The lossy form of being in charge

    I am not sure where the numbering schemes in the article come from, Denuvo or Voksi, or the community (seems a bit unclear) but I like the way they added the ++. It seems like this version is extra extra special. Extra extra specially crack-able, apparently.

    As Timothy points out, it sure seems like the money game makers spend on DRM would be better spent on marketing, with some of those funds being supposed losses due to 'pirating'. Even though they might target some marketing funds at that, they wouldn't actually be able to post any losses due to the fact that those 'pirates' might not have actually bought the game, nor could they be satisfactorily quantified (at least for tax purposes as a business expense). Better spending of the money might be creating a sample, or a beta, or a whatever its called portion of the game which IS free, and get people excited.

    They used to do that. What happened? Did they spend too much time reading the copyright maximalists manifestos and start on their own bend of 'we want control'? It doesn't seem to be working. Will they continue beating themselves over the head until it works? Or will they figure out that being nice rather than nasty has some value?

    Don't hold your breath. Rabid dogs are rabid until put down. Getting non rabid dogs in the race depends upon keeping them separate from other rabid dogs.

    TL:DNR (In the food service business when a discount is applied to sales there are eight different accounting transactions to properly represent the 'cost'. Four of those are in the Profit and Loss Statement, and the other four are in the Balance Sheet. Lets look at the P&L side. First the gross sales needs to be reduced and a discounted sale posted. Then a credit needs to be taken in the Cost of Goods Produced area. Then there needs to be a charge against the Marketing program assigned that particular promotion, to account for the actual business cost of the promotion. (Its been a while, I think I have that right) In digital, there are some steps that have 0 assigned to them. This is what happens when one discounts non physical goods. There are no actual losses, but proving particular lost sales is...well really hard).

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  5. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 11 Jul 2018 @ 4:37pm

    Re: Wasn't this activity already illegal?

    To paraphrase, when it comes to creative endevours, those that can cooperate, and those who can't try to control. You try to control therefore....

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  6. icon
    Calvin (profile), 11 Jul 2018 @ 5:05pm

    It's not just games though

    I'm not terribly interested in computer games but I am interested in e-books.
    I subscribe to several mailing lists that send me tailored e-mails giving me titles that I may be interested in, mostly obtained via Amazon.

    I've got a Linux system and use Calibre as my library/reader.

    I tend to download free offer books from authors I've not heard of before as a sort of 'try-before-you-buy' approach.
    Lately a lot of these 'free' offer books come infected with DRM that makes them unreadable on a Linux system.

    I'm baffled as to why an obscure author I've never heard of would make a free offer book unreadable.

    It also means I'm much less likely to buy e-books if I'm not sure I'll be able to read them. I realise that we are talking of books at a 99p price point but I don't want to waste my money on something I can't read.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  7. identicon
    tp, 11 Jul 2018 @ 5:08pm

    Re: Re: Wasn't this activity already illegal?

    > when it comes to creative endevours, those that can cooperate, and those who can't try to control.

    The right solution is to find the approach that is _useful_. It can be co-operation in some circumstances, controlling in other situations, or fixing impossible problems, or maybe going against the flow.

    But then again, useful cannot be done with a computer.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  8. icon
    KarolusMagnus (profile), 11 Jul 2018 @ 5:12pm

    Re: The lossy form of being in charge

    As an accountant reading this, it looks like all the rest of entries are an attempt to shift responsibility for the lower sales (i.e. discount) to other groups within the company.

    It's no wonder that the parties involved don't see the problem, they're too busy re-arranging deck chairs to make their section look organized.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  9. icon
    Anonymous Anonymous Coward (profile), 11 Jul 2018 @ 5:18pm

    Re: It's not just games though

    You do realize that Calibre will remove the DRM. There are plug-ins that do this job (search for 'calibre: remove DRM') . I have never needed it, but I hear it works.

    I am also baffled by why any author, obscure or not, would want to add DRM to a free book offer. The publisher on the other hand...

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  10. icon
    DB (profile), 11 Jul 2018 @ 5:19pm

    It must be state-sponsored hacking. Because it's far too sophisticated to be the work of a single individual motivated by an innate sense of fairness.

    Right?

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  11. This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 11 Jul 2018 @ 5:38pm

    QAnon says "Voksi" is FSB Russian Intelligence.

    Myth you want to believe: "a single person going by the handle Voksi".

    Personal nothing, it's another attack like one gave election to Trump.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  12. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 11 Jul 2018 @ 5:40pm

    Denuvo slogans through the years

    2014: Denuvo, we can't be cracked!

    2015: Denuvo, we can't easily be cracked!

    2016: Denuvo, you can still at least get a good sales window at product launch.

    2017: Well, at least we don't make it less convenient for your paying customers.

    2018: Ok, so we make it less convenient for your paying customers.

    2019: If you are calling for a late payment, please contact our bankruptcy lawyers at 1-800-223-4332

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  13. This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 11 Jul 2018 @ 5:44pm

    Balancing headlines bad news for pirates off Torrent Freak:

    Copied from right now:

    `Pirate' Kodi Boxes Breach Copyright But Seller Threatens to "Wipe Floor" With Sky

    Swedish Court Sentences `Pirate' IPTV Operators to Prison

    In World First, Danish Court Rules Stream-Ripping Site Illegal

    Court Orders PayPal to Restrain Pirate Site Funds

    Two Men Sentenced to Jail For Selling `Ooberstick' Kodi Devices

    Why don't you ever mention people are going to JAIL by following Masnick's "free content" notions, Timmy? Why only good news for pirates?

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  14. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 11 Jul 2018 @ 5:49pm

    As long as Media providers try to dictate how you watch the media you purchased legally, then someone will try circumvent those arbitrary rules(and succeed).

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  15. This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 11 Jul 2018 @ 5:49pm

    Re: Re: The lossy form of being in charge -- Brand new account!

    As an accountant reading this,

    Huh. I suppose one might see everything through the narrow lens of profession, but I highly doubt that any accountants are so intrigued by cracking that go around on pirate sites, out of the way to make an account, and then starting by stating their profession.

    More ODD "accounts" show up in Timmy's pieces than others.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  16. This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 11 Jul 2018 @ 5:56pm

    Re: It's not just games though -- Welcome back "CeeVee"!

    Or "CeeVee777", plain old "Calvin", or "Calvin Smith" at first, WAY back at 5 Oct 2007! Gosh, been commenting here nearly ELEVEN years!

    BIG QUESTION: you're down to ONE comment each of last 3 years, so what brings you out for your once-a-year on THIS piece? -- Besides Timmy behind the curtain with Administrator access?

    That's TWO ODD "accounts" out of less than 10 in one Timmy piece. Correlation enough for any fair-minded person.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  17. icon
    Gary (profile), 11 Jul 2018 @ 6:00pm

    Re: Re: Re: Wasn't this activity already illegal?

    "But then again, useful cannot be done with a computer."

    ?Care to elaborate on that tp?

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  18. This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 11 Jul 2018 @ 6:04pm

    Re: And a THIRD ODD, seven years old 8 Feb 2011 though only susp

    iciously sparse.

    Man, was I right, even before read all, that ODD accounts pop up more often in Timmy's pieces!

    Do you people EVER even suspect that you're being played? How DO you explain these? Have you never heard of the fake women on Ashley-Madison? -- No! IF are any real live "natural" persons here at all, you're programmed to respond with "conspiracy kook"! Well, enjoy being played. I get HOOTS from that TOO!

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  19. icon
    Gary (profile), 11 Jul 2018 @ 6:05pm

    Good Games

    It's such a shame sites like GoG are so hell-bent in supporting piracy by stripping games of their DRM. /s

    DRM hurts paying customers.
    DRM doesn't stop pirates.
    DRM isn't essential to making money, as seen by GoG.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  20. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 11 Jul 2018 @ 6:10pm

    Re: Balancing headlines bad news for pirates off Torrent Freak:

    Where is your blog?

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  21. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 11 Jul 2018 @ 6:10pm

    Re: Balancing headlines bad news for pirates off Torrent Freak:

    How's that John Steele defense fund coming along, blue boy?

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  22. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 11 Jul 2018 @ 6:14pm

    Re: Balancing headlines bad news for pirates off Torrent Freak:

    here you are on a site that gives it content away for free, so does that make you a pirate?

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  23. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 11 Jul 2018 @ 6:18pm

    Re: Re: It's not just games though

    If I do not know the author, why spend time getting round the DRM, when I can find another work without DRM in less time?

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  24. icon
    Anonymous Anonymous Coward (profile), 11 Jul 2018 @ 6:31pm

    Re: Re: Re: It's not just games though

    Yes, it is a crap shoot. The same crap shoot one takes when they pick up a new author at a book store or at the library. The new author might not be worth the time. On the other hand they might be the next best thing.

    Opening Calibre, pointing to the book file, invoking a plug-in, then reading Techdirt for a few minutes while the plug-in does the work doesn't seem all that hard. Oh, of course there might be a few minutes downloading the plug-in, but the ones I have downloaded for Calibre were trivial. I just haven't needed the DRM ones.

    Converting a book from one format to another takes a few seconds. I don't know how long the DRM removal would take, but it probably isn't much.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  25. icon
    JoeCool (profile), 11 Jul 2018 @ 6:32pm

    Re: Good Games

    GoG proves more than that - they're making money on games years after the original distributor gave up on them. It should show distributors that there's always a market for Good Old Games, but game distributors seem to have been infected by the **AA groups.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  26. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 11 Jul 2018 @ 7:01pm

    LOL paranoid delusions

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  27. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 11 Jul 2018 @ 7:02pm

    Re: Re: Balancing headlines bad news for pirates off Torrent Freak:

    Oh we all know he’s a self admitted filthy TOR pirate.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  28. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 11 Jul 2018 @ 7:03pm

    Were you born this stupid, or did your parents neglect you into ignorance?

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  29. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 11 Jul 2018 @ 7:05pm

    I hope, for your own sake, that you get the professional help you do not deserve but need anyway.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  30. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 11 Jul 2018 @ 7:07pm

    Re: Wasn't this activity already illegal?

    You are also assuming the person lives in a country that respects US copyright law.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  31. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 11 Jul 2018 @ 7:07pm

    LOL self-loathing by way of hatereading

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  32. icon
    That One Guy (profile), 11 Jul 2018 @ 7:10pm

    'Oh look, countless authors who DO want my money...'

    For me at least it's less a matter of time as principle. If they're going to infect their books with DRM then I will happily pass them up for authors that don't treat me like a criminal, as there are always plenty of those around.

    That the hurdle is low does not stop it from being there, and so long as there are viable alternatives why go through the hassle at all?

    As for the crap shoot angle both sites I buy from(Amazon and Smashwords) have 'sample' options, and while that's not always a guarantee, it can at least give you a general idea as to quality and style, without the need to pay anything more than time.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  33. icon
    That One Guy (profile), 11 Jul 2018 @ 7:27pm

    Hubris before the fall

    When your company can be beaten, and is, on a regular basis by a single person I'd say it's time to toss in the towel and admit that it's time to move on to something else.

    Even if they somehow stop him it's a given that there will be near-countless others ready to step up and have a crack and beating the 'unbeatable' DRM just to show that it can be done and that they did it.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  34. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 11 Jul 2018 @ 7:31pm

    Re: Wasn't this activity already illegal?

    Apparently this commenter didn't get the memo that there is a world outside the US.

    Obviously people outside the US are not bound to US laws (e.g. the DMCA).

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  35. icon
    TKnarr (profile), 11 Jul 2018 @ 7:35pm

    Re: Re: Re: It's not just games though

    With Calibre there's no time spent on the book. You need a few minutes when you install the plug-in to configure it with the info from/for your reader. After that the plug-in operates in the background, silently removing the DRM as you import the e-book into Calibre. I haven't seen it add any appreciable time to the import either, so it's basically negligible overhead.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  36. This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it
    identicon
    tp, 11 Jul 2018 @ 7:46pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Wasn't this activity already illegal?

    > > "But then again, useful cannot be done with a computer."

    > ?Care to elaborate on that tp?

    Sure. The problem is that computers are eating too much people's time that the cost of everyone using computers is significantly larger than whatever the benefits are. And any new incremenal feature to computer software, cannot ever overcome the huge cost involved in the creation of computer hardware and the time spent in using them.

    So usefulness cannot ever be assigned to computers, simply because collectively computers spend too much time from humans.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  37. icon
    Anonymous Anonymous Coward (profile), 11 Jul 2018 @ 7:49pm

    Re: 'Oh look, countless authors who DO want my money...'

    I get the principle thing, and agree with it. But I might make an exception where a publisher foists the DRM on an author. If the author self publishes AND puts DRM on their books, like you, they lose my interest and respect.

    I used to like Scott Turow as an author. That is until I heard about his attitudes with regard to copyright. Now I wouldn't read anything he has written, even if he paid me.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  38. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 11 Jul 2018 @ 7:52pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Wasn't this activity already illegal?

    This coming from the guy whose sole claim to fame is a "meshpage" he has such trouble getting others to use, he has to advertise on two buses just to get people to notice. Oh, and troll a website nobody but 27 Bangladeshis read, according to out_of_the_blue. And he wants to be paid six million for it.

    Gotta love the logic of idiots who scream at other people for using computers and the Internet... on the Internet, on a computer. Genius!

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  39. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 11 Jul 2018 @ 8:04pm

    Re:

    DRM stops the pirates who don't have internet access...and thus don't pirate.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  40. icon
    That One Guy (profile), 11 Jul 2018 @ 8:06pm

    Re: Re: 'Oh look, countless authors who DO want my money...'

    I have some sympathy with authors in that situation, where they face what they believe(and could very well be from their perspective) a situation of 'if you want to publish through us we will add DRM, take it or leave it', but self-publishing authors that add DRM? Yeah, they go straight into the 'not interested enough to even read a sample' pile.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  41. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 11 Jul 2018 @ 8:10pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Wasn't this activity already illegal?

    Computers and the internet connected me to a woman who would become my wife of 15 years. The same provided me education through online learning programs far from the college campuses I attended. Now they earn me my living that pays for the food I eat, the clothes I wear, the house I live in, the car I drive, and the vacations I take to interesting locations. They allow me to sign up for services, enjoy entertainment, order products not available in my local stores, access more interesting content than listening to my neighbors talk about their kale gardens, et al. Computers seem pretty damn useful to me. Just because you're a luddite doesn't mean technology isn't useful to the rest of humanity.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  42. icon
    DB (profile), 11 Jul 2018 @ 8:13pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Wasn't this activity already illegal?

    But... what have they done for you lately?

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  43. identicon
    tp, 11 Jul 2018 @ 8:45pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Wasn't this activity already illegal?

    > This coming from the guy whose sole claim to fame is a "meshpage"

    "fame" is now something useful? I thought programmers are just supposed to do technology side and leave marketing to someone else. If that isn't true, let me know so that it can be fixed.

    > he has such trouble getting others to use,

    the globe has 2 billion other web pages who have exactly the same problem. What's your trick of getting them all implement the "fame" requirerment?

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  44. icon
    Uriel-238 (profile), 11 Jul 2018 @ 9:02pm

    tons of damage if the information is published

    I'm pretty sure it's published and researched (officially) off shore and out of the jurisdiction of the DMCA anti-circumvention clause. May not stop ICE from raiding a house, though.

    Denuvo is particularly disliked as it tends to cause slowdown, at least cracked versions are reputed to feature higher frame-rates than uncracked versions, which is the primary reason Denuvo is so disliked by the end-user community.

    Or so I hear. Games are things I typically actually buy, from companies and development teams I want to support.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  45. icon
    Calvin (profile), 11 Jul 2018 @ 9:07pm

    Re: Re: It's not just games though

    I've already installed the DRM removal plugin unfortunately there is a new version of DRM being used that doesn't yet have a plugin available.
    It's being worked on but it's not there yet

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  46. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 11 Jul 2018 @ 9:31pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Wasn't this activity already illegal?

    My trick? Nothing, because it's not the consumer's responsibility to fund things he hasn't paid for and has no desire to consume. A man is not going to purchase a self-abortion kit for himself; why would it bother him that the company that makes said kits makes a profit or not?

    But someone like you, who believes that the moment the RIAA sends a guy a letter is when that guy is legally obligated to surrender his entire life savings before the subpoena even makes it to court, would never understand subtlety or restraint.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  47. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 11 Jul 2018 @ 9:48pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Wasn't this activity already illegal?

    I reject your argument with one invention: Email

    sending a letter (or physically going) to the other side of the world just isn't effective on a regular basis. Doing either would also take up a lot more time.

    Given how much communication happens online, not having that advantage would be wasting too much time. So arguably your premise makes no sense.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  48. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 11 Jul 2018 @ 9:49pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Wasn't this activity already illegal?

    oh... wrong post
    meant as a reply to tp

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  49. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 11 Jul 2018 @ 9:51pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Wasn't this activity already illegal?

    nevermind... it just wasn't displaying correctly.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  50. icon
    PaulT (profile), 12 Jul 2018 @ 12:41am

    Re: Wasn't this activity already illegal?

    "Apparently this Voksi didn't get the memo that said that DCMA made circumventing digital protection measures illegal. "

    No, he did, but civil disobedience is still a thing. I know that normal human behaviour confounds and confuses you, but people will do illegal things if they think that the statement made by or effect of doing so is worth the risk and punishment of participating in that action.

    "dvd-jon case where some kid broke the protections of the cdrom drives"

    I've never seen anyone get things so wrong in a single phrase!

    First off, CD-ROMs and DVDs are two totally different things. Secondly, nothing on the drives was affected, just the information on the disc being bypassed via software. Thirdly, the CSS "protection" on the discs was preventing people from using the property they had legally obtained, meaning they had to resort to other means.

    Pirates were CREATED by the DRM, not prevented.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  51. icon
    PaulT (profile), 12 Jul 2018 @ 12:47am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Wasn't this activity already illegal?

    "I thought programmers are just supposed to do technology side"

    The sad thing is, you failed at that part too,

    "What's your trick of getting them all implement the "fame" requirerment?"

    Do something useful, rather than hacking together a poorly designed piece of crap then rambling on about nonsense on web forums for the rest of your time?

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  52. icon
    PaulT (profile), 12 Jul 2018 @ 1:11am

    Re: Re:

    Not just a market for old games, but markets that didn't previously exist. Their commitment to making as many games as possible also compatible with Mac and Linux, for example, as well as bundling lots of extras with games where they can that might not have been easy to get hold of previously (e.g. soundtracks). I know I've bought more than one title that I already own on disc for those features.

    On top of that, they seem to have a good handle on how to run their business. Constant new content, both now indie games and older titles. Regular sales, including free games to encourage further spending. GOG Connect, which lets people have select games through them DRM free at no extra charge if they already own the game on Steam. So many great things, and an excellent rebuttal to most of the "it can't be done" or "there's no value to that" arguments that come from the clueless.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  53. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 12 Jul 2018 @ 1:53am

    Re: Re: Re: Wasn't this activity already illegal?

    But then again, useful cannot be done with a computer.

    Just because your efforts to do something useful on a computers have failed does not mean that computer is useless.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  54. icon
    PaulT (profile), 12 Jul 2018 @ 2:25am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Wasn't this activity already illegal?

    I personally love the fact that he's stating this kind of thing... on a computer. Via a method of communication that wouldn't be possible without them, to an audience that wouldn't exist without them. While trying desperately to pimp software he wrote via the link he includes every time.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  55. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 12 Jul 2018 @ 2:32am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Wasn't this activity already illegal?

    The I am anti creator, and I will give you tools to limit your creativity is also a great marketing move.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  56. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 12 Jul 2018 @ 3:06am

    From the torrentfreak article

    Puyo Puyo Tetris. I thought ‘it’s small game, it’d be easier to analyze’, but oh no no,” he said.

    “The game executable is 128MB big, of which just 5-6MB is the real game code. The rest of it is Denuvo. It’s the most bloated Denuvo I’ve ever seen.”

    So over 95% of the game executable is DRM. That just about sums up DRM - "whatever it takes"

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  57. icon
    PaulT (profile), 12 Jul 2018 @ 3:21am

    Re:

    Plus, it must be stressed, the entire purpose of that code is to presume that you're a pirate and *maybe* give you access to what you paid for if it accepts that you are a legal owner. You have to go through that check every time you play, always risk not being able to pass it due to circumstances beyond your control, and are constantly open to whatever new performance problems and security flaws the DRM has introduced on to your computer.

    *Actual* pirates never encounter that check the moment the first crack is made public, and often have all the other issues removed entirely. Now, it seems, they have a much more streamlined and easy to distribute copy at the same time.

    That is why DRM is pointless - it *always* makes the legal product worse than the pirated one.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  58. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 12 Jul 2018 @ 3:47am

    Re: Re: It's not just games though -- Welcome back "CeeVee"!

    Lurkers.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  59. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 12 Jul 2018 @ 5:09am

    Re: Re: 'Oh look, countless authors who DO want my money...'

    But I might make an exception where a publisher foists the DRM on an author.

    Who foisted the publisher on the author? I'm not going to let them escape blame by pushing it to someone they chose to associate with. Maybe 10 years ago... but by now DRM is no surprise, and authors should be forbidding it in their publishing contracts.

    (That's the minimum. Personally, I won't buy from any publisher that sues or threatens over noncommercial distribution.)

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  60. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 12 Jul 2018 @ 5:37am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: It's not just games though

    But if you do not use Calibre, it becomes install Calibre, find and install the module, remove the DRM, move the cracked copy into your usual directory structure. In other words a hassle, and there are plenty of other authors out there looking for an audience.

    With self publishing on the Internet, it is not a case of searching out books you like, but rather deciding which ones to ignore, and DRM puts a book in the ignore category from me.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  61. icon
    Ninja (profile), 12 Jul 2018 @ 5:40am

    I like it. Differently from TD I wholeheartedly support efforts from DRM crackers. I actually should thank them for allowing me to run cracked stuff I owned but couldn't run properly or had to keep the CD on the drive. Hardly pirate-y stuff.

    Nowadays I couldn't care less. If it has DRM then I don't want it.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  62. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 12 Jul 2018 @ 6:13am

    "With that in mind, we've wondered aloud why game companies even bother with any of this DRM nonsense, when they instead could be connecting with their customers and giving them real reasons to buy with innovative business models and engagement."

    We have a very strong disagreement with the term "innovative business model".

    Incomplete games, "chapters", DLC, and randomized loot boxes are *not* innovative.

    I certainly hope this isn't the "solution" to DRM.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  63. identicon
    Shufflepants, 12 Jul 2018 @ 7:35am

    Re: Re: And a THIRD ODD, seven years old 8 Feb 2011 though only susp

    If all of the comments here are just bots and propaganda, why you talking to yourself?

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  64. identicon
    tp, 12 Jul 2018 @ 8:49am

    Re: Re: Wasn't this activity already illegal?

    > Thirdly, the CSS "protection" on the discs was preventing people from using the property they had legally obtained, meaning they had to resort to other means.

    This is the most bullshit I've heard in a long time. The main use case for the CSS breaking was with the pirate groups who wanted to publish the material, but the protection system prevented that operation, and now with dvd-jon's decryption key, they could actually pirate the stuff just like in the old days when the protection was not available. THey made the brbeaking illegal for a reason.

    The "normal users couldnt use the disks they legimately purchased" was a drop in a bucket, i.e. it wasn't significant enough activity compared to the fact that immediately after breaking the encryption, you could make 2 million copies to all your friends.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  65. identicon
    tp, 12 Jul 2018 @ 9:00am

    Re: Re: Wasn't this activity already illegal?

    > Obviously people outside the US are not bound to US laws (e.g. the DMCA).

    when they cause enough damage, they will be just extradited to US to face trial. That's what happened in the megaupload case too, even though his country is supposedly amazing for pirates.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  66. icon
    PaulT (profile), 12 Jul 2018 @ 9:26am

    Re: Re: Re: Wasn't this activity already illegal?

    "This is the most bullshit I've heard in a long time"

    Well, given that you apparently also don't think movie piracy existed before YouTube, you might consider shutting the fuck up and letting people who know things work talk.

    "DVD Jon" has stated that his main motivation for bypassing CSS was so that he could play DVDs on Linux. Which was perfectly doable, apart from the bullshit DRM. He was playing DVDs he owned on the OS he wished to use, all perfectly legally - apart from the piece of software that told him he wasn't allowed to do this in Linux.

    He opted not to be told to drop open source development and use windows like a good little fool, so created a tool to allow him to do this. A tool which has other uses, sure, but you don't ban kitchen knives because sometimes people get stabbed.

    It's strange that you choose to remain so pathetically ignorant, since you're using the same tool that would allow you find the facts, even if you aren't old enough to have lived through the period first hand as I did. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DeCSS

    "The "normal users couldnt use the disks they legimately purchased" was a drop in a bucket"

    Not to the people who couldn't use their legally purchased products it wasn't. Why shouldn't a person who wishes to use Linux as their desktop system also be able to play their legally obtained discs?

    You demand people bow down to the whims of corporations and only use the products which they pre-approve for your use. That makes you a fool and someone demanding that everything be controlled by those same corporations. Just because they claim they're not getting enough money from suckers like you.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  67. icon
    PaulT (profile), 12 Jul 2018 @ 9:28am

    Re: Re: Re: Wasn't this activity already illegal?

    So, you don't see the problem with people being bound by the laws of other countries being a problem either? What a surprise? What if the US made your shitty website illegal despite it being legal where you advertise in on buses? Would you be happy to be extradited for trial then?

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  68. identicon
    tp, 12 Jul 2018 @ 10:48am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Wasn't this activity already illegal?

    > What if the US made your shitty website illegal despite it being legal where you advertise in on buses?

    Good websites listen to their customers. This means that issues from various players need to be listened while developing the solution. This includes for example RIAA/MPAA's dragonian rules, whatever free software/open source people are thinking, listening technology and gaming communities is important too.. Anyway, if you don't explicitly reject ideas from certain market participants, then you'll get intersection of the ideas and it'll be legal everywhere. Just need to filter out ideas from pirate groups or other illegal activities.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  69. identicon
    tp, 12 Jul 2018 @ 11:03am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Wasn't this activity already illegal?

    > "DVD Jon" has stated that his main motivation for bypassing CSS was so that he could play DVDs on Linux.

    His "main motivation" doesnt matter. You need to consider all the consiquences. Proper linux distribution anyway would reject DeCSS stuff since they don't have license from content owners to do the operation required. The actually important consiquence was that pirate groups used it for illegal purposes, and dvd-jon should have thought about that possibility before breaking the encryption or publishing his findings. Guess that didn't happen and it caused some damage and now the activity is illegal.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  70. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 12 Jul 2018 @ 11:35am

    As unfathomable as it may seem to some how anyone can sustain a large effort in the long run purely out of "personal grudge", it is not unheard of. Stallman did the exact same thing (minus actual piracy) back in the day by single-handedly duplicating a company's software development work on his own, as free software, purely because he didn't see what they were doing as ethical.

    I'm a mere village idiot compared to any of these guys, but I can understand their drive perfectly - there are certain small software companies that I absolutely WOULD have tried to drive to bankruptcy by offering an alternative to what they did as free software, because of some of the disgraceful shit they pulled, if only I was that good.

    Sadly, I tested my limits many times and my powers fell invariably short of even thinking about that sort of thing - but companies would do well to keep in mind that for each million people who forget what happened the week before, there is one who will never, ever, ever forget nor forgive - and getting on the bad side of that one can be seriously bad for their business if only it's the right person...

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  71. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 12 Jul 2018 @ 1:34pm

    Re:

    Oh, that's true it did not work 1000 times before, but this time, well this time it will!

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  72. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 12 Jul 2018 @ 1:40pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Wasn't this activity already illegal?

    Yes, yes. Ban all the knives. And cars! Thieves use cars! They also use keys! These should also be banned! After all - if you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear.

    Go, wank somewhere else.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  73. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 12 Jul 2018 @ 3:01pm

    Re: Re: Re: Wasn't this activity already illegal?

    >The "normal users couldnt use the disks they legimately purchased" was a drop in a bucket, i.e. it wasn't significant enough activity compared to the fact that immediately after breaking the encryption, you could make 2 million copies to all your friends.

    Wow. Welcome to planet earth, where logic works differently than it must have in your universe.

    Copying DVD's is absolutely trivial, it's just a bitstream. No decryption is needed: you could press and sell millions of physical copies, upload to the cloud, or backup to punch cards, without ever decrypting.

    It's only when you try to use the DVD for its intended purpose (i.e. read and view) that decryption causes a problem. And that problem is exactly the same for legally-purchased copies as for legal backup copies or illegally-distributed copies.

    The so-called "copy protection" may keep the user from doing anything--EXCEPT copying.

    DeCSS is _essential_ when people want to make the proper-and-intended-use of legally-distributed-and-purchased portable-standards-conforming media with some legally-distributed-and-purchased hardware (notably, Linux systems.) Again, it is utterly ineffective against copying (legal or otherwise.)

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  74. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 12 Jul 2018 @ 3:44pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Wasn't this activity already illegal?

    Then why are you using a computer?

    Why don't you send a postcard or a lovely old fashioned hand-written letter to Mike Masnick with your feelings and thoughts?

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  75. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 12 Jul 2018 @ 3:48pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Wasn't this activity already illegal?

    The guy is either trolling or he thinks sucking the dicks of the CEOs of large corporations will "somehow" get him money/a job etc.

    corporate stockholm syndrome

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  76. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 12 Jul 2018 @ 3:49pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Wasn't this activity already illegal?

    addition: the corporation fucks its customers.

    And he's there, screaming harder daddy, harder!

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  77. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 12 Jul 2018 @ 7:25pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Wasn't this activity already illegal?

    You need to consider all the consiquences

    Given all the times you demanded that everybody ignore all the mistakes the RIAA made with their IP address algorithms (which, I'd add, were written by somebody else)...

    Yeah, I'm calling bullshit on that. Consider all the consequences, my ass.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  78. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 12 Jul 2018 @ 7:26pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Wasn't this activity already illegal?

    Your website is illegal in China where they already have the technology that you claim to promote.

    Please submit yourself to Chinese authorities for IP enforcement. No ifs or buts. You should have listened to your customers.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  79. identicon
    Junkyardmagic, 12 Jul 2018 @ 11:36pm

    The great game

    Denuvo is a fantastic game for anyone who wants to test their hacking skills, and the brilliant thing is the game is free.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  80. icon
    PaulT (profile), 13 Jul 2018 @ 2:33am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Wasn't this activity already illegal?

    So, random bullshit again that has nothing to do with the question I asked. Typical.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  81. icon
    PaulT (profile), 13 Jul 2018 @ 2:43am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Wasn't this activity already illegal?

    "You need to consider all the consiquences"

    So... never do anything. Don't invent the hammer because it can be used to kill people. Don't invent the telephone because people can be harassed. Don't invent the printing press because people can use it to copy others' works. Don't invent the internet because some random idiot might annoy people in a web forum.

    EVERYTHING has potentially illegal uses. You broke the law today, with almost 100% certainty, you're just too dumb to understand why.

    "Proper linux distribution anyway would reject DeCSS stuff since they don't have license from content owners to do the operation required"

    So, again, if you want to use your legally obtained property, please submit yourself to the nearest corporate walled garden and allow them to enforce whatever their demands are on you without question. Never do anything that doesn't have prior approval from the relevant corporate monopoly. NO. Fuck. You.

    "Guess that didn't happen and it caused some damage and now the activity is illegal."

    Which activity? Playing DVDs in Linux works fine now, thanks, whereas you would have preferred that was banned and only Microsoft could allow me to use what I paid for.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  82. icon
    PaulT (profile), 13 Jul 2018 @ 2:44am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Wasn't this activity already illegal?

    He continues to use the internet, despite all the illegal activity that happens on it every day. What a hypocrite!

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  83. icon
    PaulT (profile), 13 Jul 2018 @ 2:48am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Wasn't this activity already illegal?

    Well said, I may as well reiterate - someone could indeed make an ISO copy of the disc without bypassing CSS, it's only when you try using it that it's a problem, and that problem is the same whether or not you have a legal copy. Using, not making, the copy would have been the issue.

    But, pirates might do something, so all open source software needs to be illegal and usage of your computer only approved by Microsoft (and it would have only been them at the time this was happening).

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  84. icon
    PaulT (profile), 13 Jul 2018 @ 3:01am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Wasn't this activity already illegal?

    If this guy isn't playacting, it's a fascinating study in strange behaviour. He hates computers yet apparently works as a software developer (or at least is a regular hobbyist). He creates a webpage, but insists on spending big money to advertise the niche end product on buses rather than the internet, which is the only place it can be located and used. He make sweeping statements about what should be permitted, apparently blissfully aware that everything he's doing is dependent on these rules not existing. To top it off, he's also working from a delusional version of the real world where, for example, VHS piracy somehow didn't exist.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  85. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 13 Jul 2018 @ 3:03am

    Ready? Altogether now...

    There once was an out of the blue
    Who hated the process of due
    Each film that he'd paid
    Was DMCAed
    And shoved up his ass with a screw

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  86. identicon
    Wendy Cockcroft, 13 Jul 2018 @ 6:05am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Wasn't this activity already illegal?

    @tp simples: make it useful to the audience. I've told you this before.

    As a web designer back in the day I was once hit up on Twitter by someone who advised me that their website was beautiful and I should totally go and take a look at it, which I totally did. Totally. What I saw looked like some kind of photoshoot gallery. Only after I'd dug around for a bit did I discover that the website was supposed to be advertising web design services and that the person who had hit me up was trying to say, "We're better than you."

    Well if that were true I wouldn't have had to dig around to find out what the website was for! On mine, I had my business services and contact details front and centre so anyone could tell at a glance that I was a web designer who could get a business online and on social media delivering their message to the masses, kind of thing. Audience: small business owners who don't know much about that internet web thingy.

    On yours... eh, you're some kind of programmer, I think. I'm not even sure who you're aiming at.

    So... tell your audience what you can do and who you can do it for, then see your hit rate rise.

    These days I'm a blogger, and I STILL make it clear to my audience what I do and who I do it for, i.e. blather my opinions to the aether for anyone who's interested in politics and the internet.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  87. icon
    Toom1275 (profile), 13 Jul 2018 @ 7:28am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Wasn't this activity already illegal?

    Don't invent the hammer because it can be used to kill people. Don't invent the telephone because ... it can be used to kill people. Don't invent the printing press because it can be used to kill people..

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  88. identicon
    tp, 13 Jul 2018 @ 7:43am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Wasn't this activity already illegal?

    > EVERYTHING has potentially illegal uses.

    Vendors who create these gadgets and software need to be aware of the possible illegal uses, and try to discourage their use via technological locks and limitations. This is where DRM becomes extreamly useful, when something is being misused on the marketplace. the technology vendors need to react to the misuse and design safer-to-use alternatives for end users.

    It can sometimes be difficult to know how idiotic users actually are, and it regularly becomes surprise to vendors how badly the users are coping your technology.

    But if you didn't anticipate the problems before releasing your software, then it'll be a catastrophy. After anticipating the problems, they will cause less damage, but still might be problematic..

    I can tell you about some drone I bought. It was clearly professional version, but as a programmer, I couldn't figure out how to get it flying. The product was just too difficult for me to use. Still the limitations are probably because of safety issues associated with flying drones. Even if those limitations made the product completely useless, it would be much better than kill someone accidentally by hitting the drone to a moving car or something.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  89. icon
    PaulT (profile), 13 Jul 2018 @ 7:52am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Wasn't this activity already illegal?

    "try to discourage their use via technological locks and limitations"

    Perhaps, but they cannot possibly *prevent* illicit use 100%. That's why people like you need to stop demanding the impossible and place the blame on the people actually committing the crime rather than the most convenient / richest 3rd party.

    "This is where DRM becomes extreamly useful"

    It would if DRM ever worked. It doesn't. The second a copy is cracked, it's not only useless, but it only affects people who have actually bought the product. Pirates from that moment forth are unaffected, while people paid money have an inferior, sometimes unusable, product.

    A different solution is required, or you just accept the some piracy is inevitable, as it has been for centuries, and build that into your expectations. Far better than penalising the people who actually pay you.

    "The product was just too difficult for me to use."

    So, you're saying that you're happy to have bought a product that you can't use, and people should be fine with being blocked from using the products they also bought because you were too stupid to work something out. Gotcha.

    I'd venture a guess that the reason the drone didn't work for you is because it operated according to the actual laws of physics, since you really don't seem to understand how the real world operates around you!

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  90. identicon
    tp, 13 Jul 2018 @ 8:05am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Wasn't this activity already illegal?

    > drone didn't work for you is because it operated according to the actual laws of physics

    that's why the motor that spins the blades didnt start at all...

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  91. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 13 Jul 2018 @ 8:12am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Wasn't this activity already illegal?

    Vendors who create these gadgets and software need to be aware of the possible illegal uses, and try to discourage their use via technological locks and limitations.

    Why? Anything can be used to commit a crime, and usually in trying to prevent a crime by technological means also prevents people doing some of the things that they are allowed to do with that technology.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  92. identicon
    tp, 13 Jul 2018 @ 8:18am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Wasn't this activity already illegal?

    > usually in trying to prevent a crime by technological means also prevents people doing some of the things that they are allowed to do with that technology.

    Products need to be safe to use by children and crazy teenagers who can do damage even with a paperweight.

    It's significantly bigger problem to keep products safe against misuse than what problems there are with products not allowing people to do certain niche activities.

    Damn microwave can be used to dry cats, so microwave owens need to be made small enough that a cat don't fit inside it.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  93. icon
    PaulT (profile), 13 Jul 2018 @ 8:20am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Wasn't this activity already illegal?

    Most likely, I assume. Either that, or your ability to follow the instructions was on par with your ability to follow conversations here.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  94. icon
    PaulT (profile), 13 Jul 2018 @ 8:23am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Wasn't this activity already illegal?

    "Products need to be safe to use by children and crazy teenagers who can do damage even with a paperweight."

    Name a product that can be useful but also less dangerous than a paperweight in your scenario.

    "Damn microwave can be used to dry cats, so microwave owens need to be made small enough that a cat don't fit inside it."

    ...and therefore too small to be useful for heating food, depending on how you define "cat" and how you react when people start putting hamsters in there instead.

    You continue in this vein - you wish to make products useless for legal uses because a tiny minority of uses may be bad.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  95. identicon
    tp, 13 Jul 2018 @ 8:31am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Wasn't this activity already illegal?

    > define "cat" and how you react when people start putting hamsters in there instead.

    i never said our existing tech is perfect yet? maybe there's a market for microwaves that can detect living beings inside the oven and refuse to start the oven?

    this would be similar to a drm system...

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  96. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 13 Jul 2018 @ 8:47am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Wasn't this activity already illegal?

    Assuming any engineer worth his salt would conflate a safety measure with a convoluted system that slows down your computer every time you run it.

    But that's why you're here pining about a six million dollar mansion no government would ever give you, no matter how many phalluses you fellate.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  97. identicon
    tp, 13 Jul 2018 @ 8:55am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Wasn't this activity already illegal?

    > Assuming any engineer worth his salt would conflate a safety measure with a convoluted system that slows down your computer every time you run it.

    I'm sure cat-detection in microwave is going to take some microseconds even with best consumer-grade tech. Zapping the area with electricity and detecting movement inside the oven might be one way to implement the feature, but it's going to take 30 milliseconds to run the detection. So it slows down your cooking procedure to do the detection, even though it gives you additional safety feature.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  98. icon
    PaulT (profile), 13 Jul 2018 @ 9:05am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Wasn't this activity already illegal?

    "i never said our existing tech is perfect yet?"

    No, you said make microwaves too small to put cats (and therefore most food) into because a few people misuse the tech. You didn't say the tech isn't perfect, you said make it useless.

    "maybe there's a market for microwaves that can detect living beings inside the oven and refuse to start the oven"

    Maybe there's a much larger market for devices that don't try and second guess everything their owners are going to try doing with them, and just accept that there are some idiots / psychopaths out there who will misuse tech no matter what you do with them. Then, of course, there's the misuses you haven't thought of yet.

    "this would be similar to a drm system..."

    Yes. Utterly ineffective and far more damaging to legal uses than illicit ones.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  99. icon
    PaulT (profile), 13 Jul 2018 @ 9:08am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Wasn't this activity already illegal?

    I'm sure you're going to provide us with the research that proves what you're saying, rather than you admitting you're making up a fantasy again?

    "Zapping the area with electricity and detecting movement inside the oven might be one way to implement the feature,"

    Yes, then the type of psychopath who was going to try and kill the cat will use that neat feature to torture the poor animal instead. Even your idiotic solutions can be misused.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  100. identicon
    tp, 13 Jul 2018 @ 9:17am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Wasn't this activity already illegal?

    > Even your idiotic solutions can be misused.

    Yes. But we expect the vendors who provide us with microwave ovens to make the product safe before selling it to us? Obviously the vendor can be sued if you accidently kill your cat with the oven. This is why there's amazing paperwork with
    a lawsuit recarding exactly this "cat in a microwave" -issue.

    But do we expect the same from vendors who provide copyrighted works. It's dangerous for 8 year old kids to do copyright infringement, assuming RIAA will sue them for 300k damage awards? Can the vendor of the product be sued after this happens? Maybe we need to _demand_ that they add drm, so that our kids do not accidentally commit copyright infringement?

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  101. icon
    PaulT (profile), 13 Jul 2018 @ 9:21am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Wasn't this activity already illegal?

    "But we expect the vendors who provide us with microwave ovens to make the product safe before selling it to us?"

    They do. It is safe for us, it is safe for the users, it is safe for almost every use that the device is intended for. You are saying that because a vanishingly small minority of people may misuse it, the product should thus be rendered useless for all legitimate means.

    "This is why there's amazing paperwork with a lawsuit recarding exactly this "cat in a microwave" -issue."

    People sue over all sorts of stupid shit. Do you have any record of a successful lawsuit where the company were forced to make a design change, or just ones where they were laughed out of of court?

    "It's dangerous for 8 year old kids to do copyright infringement"

    So... your standard for any product is whether or not an 8 year old can use it safely? That's a hell of a lot of stuff you want banned.

    "Maybe we need to _demand_ that they add drm, so that our kids do not accidentally commit copyright infringement?"

    But, as I've stated, DRM is useless when cracked, and doesn't protect against anyone *deliberately* infringing. Again, you're advocating making a product useless because a minority might misuse it. This is why you're an idiot.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  102. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 13 Jul 2018 @ 9:35am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Wasn't this activity already illegal?

    He has probably been caught out by what he keeps on demanding, but in this case a reasonable practice, a safe switch on procedure to stop the blades chopping fingers.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  103. icon
    Uriel-238 (profile), 13 Jul 2018 @ 9:49am

    "Illegal"

    [LongRant]

    I think part of the problem here is reliance on the notion of illegal and unlawful. We're in an age where illegal immigration is common much like speeding on the freeway (and about as severe an infraction), and yet emphasis on the unlawfulness of it has been used to justify locking these people up for years and treating them cruelly and inhumanely, in disproportion by magnitudes to the infractions they've committed.

    This is one example out of dozens, maybe hundreds about how criminality is used to presume amorality, malice or malignancy, and then to justify disproportionate response.

    The US legislature cannot be trusted to make good or fair laws. The Department of Justice cannot be trusted to enforce those laws evenly. In the end, as the Trump administration (and the Trump movement has shown us) crime is something enemies and undesirables do. We give friends mulligans. We pardon our buddies and allies. We use crime to justify using force against people we don't really like anyway. We pirate other people's crap but fire and fury if someone dares use our content without a valid license.

    And this is way before we get into the long long overreach of intellectual property maximalism, where copyrights and patent rights have become extended so far that they only serve to protect and enrich old creators leaving new innovators without material, leaving our public domain stripped and barren. Artificial scarcity and DRM is then used to inflate media prices, so that the majority of the population has to depend on sharing (and sometimes piracy) or go without and be outside the cultural zeitgest. Entire nations are so denied that media piracy is now part of the local culture.

    DRM ultimately is a device to limit action by force. In fact, DRM is commonly used to limit actions that are not illegal but just because the publisher can and wants to, say to limit the number of installations or to mandate registration with private information, or the viewing of unskippable commercial content, or to justify persistent online connections and mandated spyware.

    So the content companies have demonstrated time and again they cannot be trusted with the power of force either, and will abuse it. And their abuse entirely justifies efforts by the public to dismantle DRM mechanisms. This is their own rope by which they're hanging themselves, the cracked product is in fact better than the one included with a purchased license. The companies knowingly make it worse, because they believed they could force antagonistic content on the end-user. You wouldn't download a bear.

    This is why Windows Loader (for XP, Vista, 7, 8 and 10) is not hackware, but rather freeware, constructed by engineers, available throughout Europe, no matter what the EU government says. Microsoft long overstepped their welcome, and hence piracy is as common as speeding. Microsoft dug that grave, and now there's a community of people that, for fun and profit, watchdog Microsoft's mechanizations to see what bullshit they try next.

    Denuvo made a society that hates them and teams to thwart their every turn. That's a monster they entirely helped create.

    [/LongRant]

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  104. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 13 Jul 2018 @ 9:59am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Wasn't this activity already illegal?

    What tp is saying that he supports the lawsuit where a robber broke into a house, injured himself, and won a lawsuit against the house owner. According to tp we therefore need to make our homes friendly for anyone who wants to rob us! What an asshat.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  105. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 13 Jul 2018 @ 10:10am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Wasn't this activity already illegal?

    Vendors who create these gadgets and software need to be aware of the possible illegal uses, and try to discourage their use via technological locks and limitations.

    Please explain how to make a hammer that will prevent people from using it to bash someone over the head with it, thereby killing them.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  106. identicon
    tp, 13 Jul 2018 @ 10:11am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Wasn't this activity already illegal?

    > where a robber broke into a house, injured himself, and won a lawsuit against the house owner.

    This is guaranteed to happen, if your house is full of death traps.

    But of course, it's more likely that the house owner gets killed long before robber finds your mansion.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  107. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 13 Jul 2018 @ 10:16am

    Re: Wasn't this activity already illegal?

    You're either a moron or a troll (or both, I'm going to go with both) who can't even spell the acronym DMCA properly.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  108. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 13 Jul 2018 @ 10:17am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Wasn't this activity already illegal?

    Trolololololololol!

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  109. identicon
    tp, 13 Jul 2018 @ 10:40am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Wasn't this activity already illegal?

    > Please explain how to make a hammer that will prevent people from using it to bash someone over the head with it, thereby killing them.

    Maybe not give real hammer to 5 year old kid. They have these rubber or soft hammers instead.

    There's nice tv show called "science of stupid" which explores what happens if you fail to follow this rule.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  110. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 13 Jul 2018 @ 10:42am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Wasn't this activity already illegal?

    Please explain how to make a hammer that ADULTS cannot use to commit murder with by bashing in someone else's head.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  111. identicon
    tp, 13 Jul 2018 @ 12:26pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Wasn't this activity already illegal?

    > the website was supposed to be advertising web design service

    There's plenty of web design shops available. Sadly our experience with them is worse than we expected, when they can't even keep copyright infringement in control. I.e. the product they're selling wasnt authored by the shop itself, but they just downloaded the stuff from the web and are asking for money based on the stolen property. Why would we give the money to that shop, simply because they can do the same than what 15 year old teenagers can do while learning copyright laws?

    The same stuff happened with game developers - it's like repeating problem -- they just picked the most popular framework on the planet, downloaded assets made by someone else, and then claimed authorship of the product and asked for money.

    While integrating assets designed by someone else can also take significant amount of effort to do, they just skipped half of the real work needed for creating products and claimed success. No wonder they have problems with product safety issues, if they used low-effort approach.

    > tell your audience what you can do and who you can do it for

    We're just doing the stuff properly, from scratch, so that _we_ can be sure that there isn't any big issues in the product we offer.

    We're in a market of visualising hidden patterns in complexity. Paper and pen are the oldschool ways of doing that, but our computer-based system allows designing exactly the same data structure that is causing the current problems for that person.
    Seeing the unknown pattern screams for visualisation tools that allow communicating them to other people, so that solution can be found.

    The customers are obviously people who haev only small amount of experiences with computers or software. They're the ones who need this visualisation approach the most.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  112. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 13 Jul 2018 @ 12:45pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Wasn't this activity already illegal?

    Paper and pen are the oldschool ways of doing that, but our computer-based system allows designing exactly the same data structure that is causing the current problems for that person

    Says the guy who only a few posts up claimed computers weren't useful.

    Obvious troll is obvious.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  113. identicon
    tp, 13 Jul 2018 @ 12:55pm

    Re: The great game

    > Denuvo is a fantastic game for anyone who wants to test their hacking skills

    This seems to be the same plan what I used in a game released in 1994 where the password system for skipping one of game's 100 levels was designed to be easy-to-crack in order to let players who debug the game enough to figure out the password sequence past the levels. This made the game more popular when they got a bonus for cracking the password system.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  114. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 13 Jul 2018 @ 1:00pm

    Re: Re: The great game

    Trolling, trolling, trolling; tp keeps on trolling, RAAWHIIIDE!

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  115. identicon
    tp, 13 Jul 2018 @ 1:23pm

    Re: Re: Re: The great game

    > Trolling, trolling, trolling; tp keeps on trolling,

    And you're a member of anonymous? Weren't those people some kind of illegal hacker group?

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  116. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 13 Jul 2018 @ 1:27pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: The great game

    Coming from you that's actually a compliment. But also, where the hell did that come from?

    Fail troll is fail.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  117. identicon
    tp, 13 Jul 2018 @ 1:35pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Wasn't this activity already illegal?

    > you said make microwaves too small to put cats into because a few people misuse the tech.

    Well given that cats are world famous for their cute appearance, there are tons of cool stuff related to cats. Most recent stuff was about the fluid nature of cats, where they studied what shape a cat will be when placed to a bathtubs of different shapes and sizes.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  118. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 13 Jul 2018 @ 1:39pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Wasn't this activity already illegal?

    Who let the trolls out?! tp! tp! tp! tp!

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  119. identicon
    tp, 13 Jul 2018 @ 1:47pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The great game

    > But also, where the hell did that come from?

    Nerds are reading /. obviously, so techdirt isn't the only place in the net that uses anonymous cowards.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  120. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 13 Jul 2018 @ 1:52pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The great game

    Troll makes attempt at trolling, murders the English language making his troll attempt incomprehensible to the public at large. News at 11.

    English language fail troll is still fail troll.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  121. identicon
    tp, 13 Jul 2018 @ 2:47pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The great game

    > murders the English language making his troll attempt incomprehensible to the public at large

    English speaking area cannot take this murder any longer? Are they weak?

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  122. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 13 Jul 2018 @ 2:56pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The great game

    Troll doubles down with bad English. Public left scratching their heads in confusion at what he was trying to say. News at 12.

    Fail troll is still failing.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  123. identicon
    tp, 13 Jul 2018 @ 3:01pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Wasn't this activity already illegal?

    > Who let the trolls out?

    These were garden elfs though. That's what happens when the mansion is not being prepared.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  124. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 13 Jul 2018 @ 3:23pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Wasn't this activity already illegal?

    You should have that troll fail checked out. Sounds serious.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  125. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 13 Jul 2018 @ 6:43pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The great game

    Come on, don't hurt his feelings. tp considers himself a professional troll. That's somehow better!

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  126. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 13 Jul 2018 @ 8:48pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The great game

    Hey tp why so bitter? You work for Denuvo? Just because a 21yr old took your company to school is nothing to be upset about. Look on I hear StarForce is hiring....

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  127. icon
    The Wanderer (profile), 14 Jul 2018 @ 3:49am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: The great game

    Anyone who uses the phrase "member of Anonymous" in a serious manner has failed to understand what Anonymous is.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  128. icon
    PaulT (profile), 14 Jul 2018 @ 6:35am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Wasn't this activity already illegal?

    Yeah, cats are cool, I own one myself. I also have ovens, washing machines and microwaves large enough to serve a useful purpose, because she's not going into any of them, because the people designing them don't listen to crazy people like you.

    I would like the same situation for the media I own, please.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  129. identicon
    tp, 14 Jul 2018 @ 10:21am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The great game

    > Hey tp why so bitter? You work for Denuvo?

    Last time they asked if I work for disney, riaa, mpaa, fbi, cia, wikileaks, court system of southern california, roger rabbit or jar jar binks...

    I don't think that's too relevant question...

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  130. identicon
    tp, 14 Jul 2018 @ 10:41am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Wasn't this activity already illegal?

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  131. identicon
    tp, 14 Jul 2018 @ 10:46am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Wasn't this activity already illegal?

    > Yeah, cats are cool, I own one myself.

    This proves my theory that people actually want to do copyright infringement. When my post uses products that I definitely didn't create myself, but instead I just picked the most popular stuff from the internet, it was marked "yeah, cats are cool". But when I try to do something myself, actually spending the effort to do it properly without copyright problems, it'll be bashed to the ground.

    I.e. the current systems seems to recommend doing illegal operations.

    > I would like the same situation for the media I own, please.

    Why would doing illegal operations be important part of the solution?

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  132. identicon
    tp, 14 Jul 2018 @ 11:26am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Wasn't this activity already illegal?

    > someone could indeed make an ISO copy of the disc without bypassing CSS, it's only when you try using it that it's a problem

    But still the copying would stop when DRM was introduced. They only wanted the illegal part of copying, since they never bothered to copy the disc without being able to access the illegal DISPLAY property which they had no permission to do without license from the copyright owners.

    Only reason they copy is because they want people to watch the disks. The encrypted bit stream is not important, but they only want to violate the law.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  133. icon
    PaulT (profile), 15 Jul 2018 @ 2:53am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Wasn't this activity already illegal?

    "This proves my theory that people actually want to do copyright infringement"

    Me liking and owning a cat proves that people want to infringe copyright? Wow. What kind of drugs are you on? Can I have some?

    "But when I try to do something myself, actually spending the effort to do it properly without copyright problems, it'll be bashed to the ground."

    Because your product is shit, and you act like an obnoxious, deluded idiot when trying to communicate here. Have you ever tried creating a decent product and not rambling on about nonsense when trying to plug it?

    "Why would doing illegal operations be important part of the solution?"

    Because it's inevitable part of life. Part of life is finding a balance.Human nature dictates that laws will not be followed 100% of the time - ever! - so we strike the balance that allows as much freedom and benefit to the law-abiding while accepting that some people will do bad things. It's called civilisation and liberty.

    Once again, I apologise if the reality of the planet you actually live upon differs from your ideal fantasy environment, but that's all we have.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  134. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 15 Jul 2018 @ 8:43am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The great game

    Actually considering you want the RIAA to get you that mansion... it's very relevant.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  135. identicon
    tp, 15 Jul 2018 @ 4:15pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Wasn't this activity already illegal?

    > Because your product is shit, and you act like an obnoxious, deluded idiot

    Lets start with the first point. Obviously the product is shit _if_ you compare it against your piracy collection. I can't be expected to compete against the best products chosen from a set of millions of different products. But obviously your piracy collection is illegal. If we remove the illegal part, my product has much better chance of competing in the market.

    There are other illegal operations than just copyright infringement. When creation of the product fails because the authors are getting burned out, the creation process must stop. So the people who created it, tried their best and cannot create anything better without violating tons of labor laws....

    So while you claim the product is shit after the author stopped doing it because he hits another illegal operation, and it still doesnt compare well against your pirate collection, what part of the equation is actually the problem?

    Should these authors spend more and more of their life to get the product perfect quality? Just work harder until they lose their health? Or what exactly is your solution to the problem that "the product is shit"?

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  136. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 15 Jul 2018 @ 7:32pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Wasn't this activity already illegal?

    For me, I don't need to look at your product - judging by the consistent quality of your posts to this website, I know you're an individual I do not wish to financially support.

    Your definition of "illegal" includes things that exist in the public domain - an institution enshrined by law which you constantly choose to ignore and claim is illegal. You claim that copyright law mandates that anything whose copyright has expired must be destroyed because of the author's regret or to make way for new works - which in itself is an impossibility, because the expiration of copyright only happens decades after the author's death, unless you want to suggest he's capable of creating after shuffling off the mortal coil.

    Hell, you think that owning a fucking cat makes you want to infringe copyright.

    Get bent.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  137. icon
    PaulT (profile), 16 Jul 2018 @ 1:49am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Wasn't this activity already illegal?

    "Obviously the product is shit _if_ you compare it against your piracy collection"

    I don't have a "piracy collection". But, yes, if I did that would be accurate.

    But, you know what makes it shit compared to the pirated stuff? The artificial crap that's been added to it in order to attempt to stop piracy. Given that this attempt has obviously failed, how about they stop deliberately selling inferior products?

    "There are other illegal operations than just copyright infringement"

    There are, but there's only one you're pathologically obsessed with, so that's the one under discussion here.

    "Or what exactly is your solution to the problem that "the product is shit"?"

    People make stuff that isn't shit. Lots of people manage to do so, but the failed and untalented will always try to blame something other than their own shortcomings for their failure.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  138. identicon
    tp, 16 Jul 2018 @ 3:01am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Wasn't this activity already illegal?

    > But, you know what makes it shit compared to the pirated stuff?

    The fact that pirated stuff does not need to actually create the product. They can just steal one, and thus they have larger collection and better quality product. This is why it's illegal. The product quality is better than what the market competition can handle.

    > The artificial crap that's been added to it in order to attempt to stop piracy.

    Given that this is in an article about DRM, we need to handle this issue. My product does indeed have some features like this. They're safety features for the user. We want users to feel safe while using the product, and if there are market participants who are creating pirated products with our tool, users cannot feel safe using it. Accidental piracy needs to be prevented.

    Of course we cannot do anything to the idiots who explicitly ignore the law.

    > Given that this attempt has obviously failed, how about they stop deliberately selling inferior products?

    This is the most ridiculous statement possible. Best product is one where you just chose the best product from the world. But noone in the world can actually create such a product. 99.99999999% of the projects never reach that quality level. Basically stolen products always have better quality. This is why it's illegal to steal the product, you'll start to assume that higher quality products can be created than what the real situation is.

    Instead of comparing the product to _all_ the products on the world, better comparision would be against what you managed to create yourself.

    You keep complaining about how shit the product is, but when you created a product yourself, you didn't get anywhere near the quality level that is being provided in this project.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  139. icon
    PaulT (profile), 16 Jul 2018 @ 3:25am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Wasn't this activity already illegal?

    "The fact that pirated stuff does not need to actually create the product"

    That had nothing to do with my question.

    "They're safety features for the user"

    Bullshit.

    "Accidental piracy needs to be prevented."

    Not at the expense of making a usable and valuable product, it doesn't.

    "This is the most ridiculous statement possible"

    No, it's really not, especially compared to the word salad you followed that with.

    "Instead of comparing the product to _all_ the products on the world, better comparision would be against what you managed to create yourself."

    So, don't compare with the marketplace that exists, just the tiny fraction of it you were responsible for?

    That's one way to avoid the harsh truth that you created a bag of shit, I suppose. Ignore all your competitors, but your latest turd is a little bit better than the last one you squeezed out so, you're doing great!

    "You keep complaining about how shit the product is"

    ...which is why neither I, nor anybody else, is buying it. Not because of piracy, because you created crap that nobody wants.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  140. identicon
    tp, 16 Jul 2018 @ 5:00am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Wasn't this activity already illegal?

    > So, don't compare with the marketplace that exists, just the tiny fraction of it you were responsible for?

    Huh. That doesnt make sense. Comparision always needs to pick two products. One is what I created. Another is what you created. Then comparision will compare the quality level reached.

    It doesnt make sense to compare against _all_ the products in the world. Only thiefs can pick from that set. Of course the stolen BMW is more expensive than the fiat you can afford to buy yourself, but the system works better if everyone doesnt have bmw.

    If you have two piles of products. First one reads "high quality products", while the 2nd one read "low quality". Both piles needs to be consumed by some end users. Why are you so special that you deserve to pick a product from the high quality pile?

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  141. icon
    PaulT (profile), 16 Jul 2018 @ 5:25am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Wasn't this activity already illegal?

    "Comparision always needs to pick two products"

    No wonder you're so woefully wrong all the time, if you think that the world is this binary in reality.

    It doesnt make sense to compare against _all_ the products in the world"

    Why not? Your customers will. Well, maybe not *everything*, but they will certainly compare what's available in the market section that they're interested in purchasing from.

    "Only thiefs can pick from that set"

    So, you're saying that people who buy things never research or compare products before making a purchase? Or, is it that you're saying that only thieves pick the higher quality products? It's hard to tell what you're yammering on about other than it bears no relationship to reality. That planet you're living on just gets weirder and weirder...

    "Why are you so special that you deserve to pick a product from the high quality pile?"

    Because I have limited resources and will not buy crappy products that don't meet my requirements. Just like every other person, unless a problem with available resources force them to only buy the crappy one. People with non-binary thinking will also understand that compromises between cost and quality are made all the time, and it's the middle of the curve that generally shifts the most numbers.

    Also, again, you fail to define what you're actually thinking about here. You have to define "quality". The best quality item isn't always the most expensive, and it sure as hell isn't automatically the one that had the most time out into it.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  142. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 16 Jul 2018 @ 5:26am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Wasn't this activity already illegal?

    I'm not picking either product. Why do I still need to pay you? Because you think you deserve my money for a product I didn't buy? Because you paid RIAA lawyers to harass me? Fuck off.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  143. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 16 Jul 2018 @ 5:34am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Wasn't this activity already illegal?

    > I'm not picking either product.

    Why do you care if the product is shit if you don't use it?

    > Why do I still need to pay you?

    Government promised that if I work hard, they would get me a mansion. I worked hard but mansion is nowhere to be found.

    > Because you think you deserve my money for a product I didn't buy?

    Promises need to be kept. This is what separates good decent people from the riffraff.

    > Because you paid RIAA lawyers to harass me?

    RIAA only harass you if you consumed the product but failed to pay for it. They only went after pirates who own riaa some money.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  144. icon
    PaulT (profile), 16 Jul 2018 @ 5:50am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Wasn't this activity already illegal?

    "Why do you care if the product is shit if you don't use it?"

    Because idiots like you still try to change the laws, enforce inferior products via DRM and so forth even if I'm not buying the crap you shovel. It an infectious disease, and we want to get rid of you Typhoid Mary types before decent products are infected.

    "Government promised that if I work hard, they would get me a mansion"

    Either they lied, or you completely misunderstood the promise that was made. My money's on you having a really good stash of hallucinogenics somewhere.

    "RIAA only harass you if you consumed the product but failed to pay for it"

    Another lie.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  145. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 16 Jul 2018 @ 6:06am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Wasn't this activity already illegal?

    Let me rephrase, because apparently I overestimated your reading comprehension abilities.

    I am not picking either product. I did not buy the product, I did not consume the product. I refuse to pick the product because you are a reprehensible individual and I refuse to support your two-bus-advertised rubbish on principle.

    And despite me wanting to have nothing to do with your product you somehow think that entitles you to my money, and government resources to harass me. Fuck off.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  146. identicon
    tp, 16 Jul 2018 @ 6:17am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Wasn't this activity already illegal?

    > Because idiots like you still try to change the laws,

    The govt that promised the mansion is responsible for ensuring that laws don't get changed without good reason.
    Maybe you can vote someone more respectable next time.

    But why do you think you can decide which reason is good enough? It's for the court system and the government to decide when the reasons are strong enough.

    When they find blatant misuses of people's trust, they are
    forced to change the laws. You shouldn't shoot the messenger, even if it's RIAA who blows the whistle of what is actually happening in the world.

    If you have strong enough case, you can get your own changes to the laws. Usually it just costs 300k and doesnt benefit yourself, but everyone who follows your footsteps will benefit from the changes. But the changes do not always work in your favor, if they think your case is bullshit.

    > It an infectious disease, and we want to get rid of you

    Obviously the court system needs to balance the needs of all the different entities. RIAA has as good reason to question the current practises than you have.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  147. icon
    PaulT (profile), 16 Jul 2018 @ 6:58am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Wasn't this activity already illegal?

    "The govt that promised the mansion is responsible for"

    ...being nothing more than a figment of your fevered imagination, like everything else you just addressed.

    "Obviously the court system needs to balance the needs of all the different entities"

    So why do you only support the need of one?

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  148. identicon
    tp, 16 Jul 2018 @ 7:24am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Wasn't this activity already illegal?

    > being nothing more than a figment of your fevered imagination,

    You can lookup "minecraft mansion" from google to find tons of information about the promise.

    > So why do you only support the need of one?

    They seem to really need our help, since the market seems to be turning against them. Obviously helping the weak is a good thing to do.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  149. icon
    PaulT (profile), 16 Jul 2018 @ 7:37am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Wasn't this activity already illegal?

    "You can lookup "minecraft mansion" from google to find tons of information about the promise."

    How about you provide the link to your evidence instead? I somehow feel no claim has been made like the one you're stating.

    If you're talking about how Notch managed to get a big house after the game was sold to Microsoft, the promise has only ever been that this is *possible*. Which, it clearly is.

    If you thought it was somehow guaranteed to every developer, you're an even bigger idiot than you have displayed so far, which is something of an achievement.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  150. identicon
    tp, 16 Jul 2018 @ 7:46am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Wasn't this activity already illegal?

    > I somehow feel no claim has been made like the one you're stating.

    Our position is that everything published in the copyright area are a prediction of what the future will be like. The higher the quality of the product is, the more accurate predictions of the future they need to make. This is the reason why books are being written or software is being built. To predict what will happen in the future, so we can prepare for the inevitable.

    The minecraft guy published a powerful prediction that said we all have mansions in the future. Obviously, since it was quality work, we can trust it to become true in the future.

    > If you're talking about how Notch managed to get a big house after the game was sold to Microsoft,

    yes, exactly the same events. But our position of the copyrighted subject matter being predictions of the future are our interpretation of how copyright laws are working.

    > If you thought it was somehow guaranteed to every developer,

    Well, accurate and powerful predictions are funny that they will become true, even if we don't want that to happen.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  151. icon
    PaulT (profile), 16 Jul 2018 @ 8:08am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Wasn't this activity already illegal?

    "Our position is that everything published in the copyright area are a prediction of what the future will be like"

    So, you're still basing everything on fiction, rather than how things really work.

    "The minecraft guy published a powerful prediction that said we all have mansions in the future. "

    So, you were lying when you said it was the government promising such things?

    You're openly both a liar and a fantasist, and then you wonder why you can't get results in the real world.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  152. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 16 Jul 2018 @ 9:06am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Wasn't this activity already illegal?

    So if he wants a Minecraft mansion, sure.

    Get the government to satisfy him with Monopoly money or plastic hotels. If he wants more he'll have to advertise on three buses.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  153. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 16 Jul 2018 @ 9:17am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Wasn't this activity already illegal?

    > So, you were lying when you said it was the government promising such things?

    Nope. Govts promise is that all published copyrighted works will be implemented in real world.

    Govt obviously doesnt care about individual person's mansions, but they need to implement all of it.

    Notch's prediction was just so powerful that we assumed it to happen quickly.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  154. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 16 Jul 2018 @ 7:00pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Wasn't this activity already illegal?

    Under the condition that the copyright on those works eventually expire into the public domain. Which you don't believe in, despite it being codified in law. Once again proving yourself to be a jackass who ignores laws he finds inconvenient but demands that everybody else follow every law to the letter.

    And using games to justify real-world implications is just sad on your part. If this was the case we'd all be stomping turtles.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  155. identicon
    tp, 16 Jul 2018 @ 7:49pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Wasn't this activity already illegal?

    > but demands that everybody else follow every law to the letter.

    they spent 200 years to design perfect copyright laws, but when they get the work done, your position is that "we don't need to follow it"?

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  156. icon
    Uriel-238 (profile), 16 Jul 2018 @ 10:37pm

    Perfect copyright laws?

    Better no intellectual property protections at all than the tangled, incomprehensible and unenforceable copyright laws we have today.

    If that is what you call perfect, tp I hate to see your notion of flawed.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  157. icon
    PaulT (profile), 16 Jul 2018 @ 11:37pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Wasn't this activity already illegal?

    "Govts promise is that all published copyrighted works will be implemented in real world."

    No, it's not. Are you saying that every writer now has to have a paper copy of their work, even if they only write a blog (that's still copyrighted btw)? Or, are you saying now that software is not covered by copyright?

    "Govt obviously doesnt care about individual person's mansions, but they need to implement all of it."

    Good news! Copyright has been implemented. In fact it's implemented to greatly favour people like you over the rights of consumers.

    I bet you feel extra stupid for still having failed, don't you?

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  158. identicon
    tp, 17 Jul 2018 @ 8:29am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Wasn't this activity already illegal?

    > > "Govts promise is that all published copyrighted works will be implemented in real world."

    > No, it's not. Are you saying that every writer now has to have a paper copy of their work,

    nope. If the copyrighted work is a description of a mansion, that same exact mansion needs to be built in real world.

    If it's fictional story about wars, someone will start a war...

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  159. icon
    PaulT (profile), 17 Jul 2018 @ 9:00am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Wasn't this activity already illegal?

    So... the government hasn't done its job unless Wonderland is a real place, Pennywise is hiding underneath your nearest storm drain and I can mine Spice with the sandworms? Wow.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  160. identicon
    tp, 17 Jul 2018 @ 11:01am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Wasn't this activity already illegal?

    > the government hasn't done its job unless
    > 1) Wonderland is a real place,
    > 2) Pennywise is hiding underneath your nearest storm drain
    > 3) and I can mine Spice with the sandworms?

    Yes. Once enough punters subscribe to these ideals, someone will build a theme park or a movie featuring these aspects.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  161. icon
    PaulT (profile), 17 Jul 2018 @ 11:18am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Wasn't this activity already illegal?

    Once again, good news! The literary works I referenced have not only been adapted into movies, they have been adapted into all sorts of media (including theme park and other licenced events). Multiple times. In fact, they're currently working on further adaptations of It and Dune as we speak.

    Now, what could be the difference between those and the stuff you try to push?

    "enough punters"

    Oh yeah. You're guaranteed a voice, you are not guaranteed customers. You are guaranteed access to a marketplace to a reasonable degree, you are not guaranteed that people will choose you over competitors. Minecraft had customers, you do not. Therefore, Notch has a mansion, you do not. Simple.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  162. identicon
    tp, 17 Jul 2018 @ 11:21am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Wasn't this activity already illegal?

    > Minecraft had customers, you do not. Therefore, Notch has a mansion, you do not. Simple.

    well thats the first phase. The 2nd and 3rd phases will be something more woderful.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  163. icon
    PaulT (profile), 18 Jul 2018 @ 1:21am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Wasn't this activity already illegal?

    You'll finally be able to afford the medication you so desperately need?

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  164. identicon
    tp, 18 Jul 2018 @ 4:29pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Wasn't this activity already illegal?

    > You'll finally be able to afford the medication

    Maybe the money is better spent curbing your illegal practises?

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  165. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 18 Jul 2018 @ 6:33pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Wasn't this activity already illegal?

    Ah, the old "I'd rather spend money fucking up anyone and everyone rather than make sure my legal customers have the better experience than pirates" excuse.

    Rest assured. I will never, ever support your product, legal, pirated or otherwise. Congratulations!

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  166. identicon
    tp, 19 Jul 2018 @ 12:37am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Wasn't this activity already illegal?

    > "I'd rather spend money fucking up anyone and everyone

    Of course proper companies have multiple catalogs, where customers who fail to pay their bills gets reduced service level.

    If you're not willing to pay for it, obviusly you'll be fucked.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  167. icon
    Uriel-238 (profile), 19 Jul 2018 @ 1:54am

    "proper companies have multiple catalogs"

    I hope you don't mean to imply companies with single catalogs or a small product line are not proper companies.

    Most large companies I've encountered are disinclined to offer proper customer support or consideration. EA, Sony and Microsoft have all demonstrated the willingness to brick a customer's account for even minor social impropriety.

    Curiously, both Apple and Microsoft have demonstrated that when more people use a product, that user-base will often come through and provide technical support where the company fails.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  168. icon
    PaulT (profile), 19 Jul 2018 @ 2:50am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Wasn't this activity already illegal?

    I have no illegal practices where as you are clearly in need of mental healthcare. I say you deserve the money more than I.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  169. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 19 Jul 2018 @ 6:36am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Wasn't this activity already illegal?

    And if I pay for it, do I deserve to be fucked? Your response seems to be "yes". In which case, I'll gladly do without your product.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  170. identicon
    tp, 19 Jul 2018 @ 11:48am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Wasn't this activity already illegal?

    > I have no illegal practices

    You just don't yet know how broken you are...

    > I say you deserve the money more than I.

    that's because i spent the effort to create a product of my own, instead of just stealing what other people created.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  171. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 19 Jul 2018 @ 8:09pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Wasn't this activity already illegal?

    You just don't yet know how broken you are...

    Back to the RIAA's tactics of assuming everyone must be guilty even when they didn't buy or pirate your product, I see! Go flog your snake oil somewhere else.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  172. identicon
    tp, 19 Jul 2018 @ 11:51pm

    Riaa tactics

    > Back to the RIAA's tactics of assuming
    >1) everyone must be guilty
    >2) even when they didn't buy
    >3) or pirate your product,

    Obviously RIAA tactics are as good as anyone elses, and if you don't dismiss them directly, you'd notice how nicely they have been designed. Obviously (1) comes from competing platforms providing pirated products in their catalogs. (2) comes from fact that they consumed the product, but failed to pay for the usage. (3) they obviously pirated it, if they had access to the product, viewed or distributed the product, but without sending money to authorised vendor and using versions coming from the original author.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  173. icon
    PaulT (profile), 20 Jul 2018 @ 1:06am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Wasn't this activity already illegal?

    "You just don't yet know how broken you are.."

    Oh yes, lie about me and then just tell me I don't know about my own life when I point out you're lying. Anything better than facing reality!

    I rephrase what I said earlier - your psychologist deserves the money more than either of us. He's clearly not paid enough.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  174. icon
    PaulT (profile), 20 Jul 2018 @ 1:21am

    Re: Riaa tactics

    "Obviously (1) comes from competing platforms providing pirated products in their catalogs"

    Not all of them. In fact, there's a huge number of competitors that have exactly zero pirated products on their services. (These are the curated services rather than those with purely user generated content, of course, but they are still competitors). Even those who do have some pirated content, such as YouTube, go above and beyond what the law requires in order to remove said content, and are so successful that the RIAA recently opted to only show music videos there, as the bespoke platform they were running was such a failure in comparison.

    So, your immediate idea is to lie about things that are easily provable as lies, and your arguments depend on ignoring realityt. You are like the RIAA in so many ways it seems.

    " 2) comes from fact that they consumed the product, but failed to pay for the usage.

    Except in the many, majority, of times where they did pay, or where the product they consumed was there for free legally.. Yet again, you have to lie to make your point.

    "(3) they obviously pirated it, if they had access to the product, viewed or distributed the product, but without sending money to authorised vendor and using versions coming from the original author."

    So, according to your definition, borrowing a DVD from a friend or a book from the library is piracy. Hell, watching movie round a friend's house without paying a fee seem to fit your version of events. I wonder again why nobody thinks you're correct about these things?

    You are truly an idiot. At least the RIAA have the excuse of hanging on to a few more years of making millions through their legacy business models before they have to afce reality. What excuse does a failure such as yourself have?

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  175. identicon
    tp, 20 Jul 2018 @ 6:27am

    Re: Re: Riaa tactics

    > > " 2) comes from fact that they consumed the product, but failed to pay for the usage.

    > Except in the many, majority, of times where they did pay, or where the product they consumed was there for free legally..

    If they have 2 million videos, and each video takes 2 hours to create, and minimum wage is 10e/h, then 2,000,000*2h*10e/h = 40,000,000e which has not been paid.

    how exactly you can get these numbers match the reality? Small tweaking of the numbers does not fix the fundamental horror.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  176. icon
    PaulT (profile), 20 Jul 2018 @ 7:14am

    Re: Re: Re: Riaa tactics

    "If they have 2 million videos, and each video takes 2 hours to create"

    Just as much of an idiot as ever...

    Time taken to create each individual title is still irrelevant to how much it is worth. I know this pains you to know, but if you spent 10 hours creating a piece of shit nobody wants, and someone else spent 10 hours creating something popular, that doesn't mean you get the same money because you put the same work in. Go get a job that pays hourly if you want that, you've chosen an occupation where that doesn't happen.

    Secondly, you seem to think that the work goes into every single copy of an individual title. This is not true. If 50 different copies of a video is on YouTube, that doesn't mean that it represents 50x the amount of work it took to create one nor does it make it 50x more valuable. It does make you failure if one of those is not yours, or if yours is not the most popular copy, though.

    "how exactly you can get these numbers match the reality"

    By using realistic numbers and not the random ones you keep typing.

    "Small tweaking of the numbers does not fix the fundamental horror."

    The fundamental horror of idiots trying to destroy huge swathes of culture and business because they feel they didn't get paid enough for a product nobody wants to buy? Yeah, you're right, that doesn't fix it.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  177. identicon
    tp, 20 Jul 2018 @ 1:11pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Riaa tactics

    > Time taken to create each individual title is still irrelevant to how much it is worth.

    Why do you think it's acceptable to do activity that isn't worth the effort? Loss-making activity is where the big failure is in, why you keep ignoring the failures?

    > If you spent 10 hours creating a piece of shit nobody wants,

    Loss making activity is absolutely forbidden and youtube should stop the activity before the effort is being put to the projects. After the effort was spent, they should just hand the money.

    Their position is that they don't need to pay effort-based compensation simply because "it's piece of shit". But suddenly when they want to include it in their product catalog, "it was just ok for a product", but "no compensation is needed"... I.e. they want to include some crappy products to their catalog, even though the "products are shit"...

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  178. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 22 Jul 2018 @ 7:18pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Riaa tactics

    Do you pass your arguments through Google translate, then feed them back with an added stupid filter?

    Loss making activity is absolutely forbidden and youtube should stop the activity before the effort is being put to the projects

    So more blaming YouTube because Viacom sued YouTube for content Viacom uploaded themselves, got it.

    they want to include some crappy products to their catalog, even though the "products are shit"...

    Uh? YouTube doesn't filter based on quality, genius. YouTube lets you post whatever the hell you want. There is no "catalog", just like the RIAA has no "catalog". Have you been sniffing glue again?

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  179. icon
    PaulT (profile), 23 Jul 2018 @ 12:58am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Riaa tactics

    "Why do you think it's acceptable to do activity that isn't worth the effort?"

    You tell me, you appear to be the expert at spending lots of time to say things of no value.

    "Loss making activity is absolutely forbidden"

    You should tell some major studios and record labels that, they appear to insist on doing so on a regular basis, even when people on the outside can tell them they're working on crap nobody wants to buy.

    "youtube should stop the activity before the effort is being put to the projects"

    I have no idea what you're trying to say with your rambling here. You appear to be demanding that YouTube should stop piracy of a work before work is started on it. That's.... weird, even for you.

    "Their position is that they don't need to pay effort-based compensation simply because "it's piece of shit". "


    Ohhh... go on, quote them. I dare you to back up your own words for once.

    Anyway, are you trying to say that artists should not get royalties, and merely work on an hourly paid basis now? Because you are saying that artists who work longer deserve more money, even if the ones who worked for less time created superior work. That's the reverse of how it's worked for a very long time.

    "they want to include some crappy products to their catalog, even though the "products are shit"..."

    YouTube don't choose what their users upload, so they don't "want" anything, other than to provide a reliable video hosting service.

    The fact that you don't understand this and appear to believe that YouTube create the videos they host themselves speaks volumes about your ignorance - and why you fail at the basics of every argument here.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  180. icon
    PaulT (profile), 23 Jul 2018 @ 1:03am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Riaa tactics

    "Do you pass your arguments through Google translate, then feed them back with an added stupid filter?"

    I try not to mock him for his language skills, as English is clearly a second language. But, I fear the stupidity is there from the beginning.

    "There is no "catalog", just like the RIAA has no "catalog"."

    Well, the RIAA don't, but their members do. He appears to believe that YouTube operate in the same manner as a record label, which is utterly moronic, but again might give a clue as to why he's coming out with such silly comments.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  181. identicon
    tp, 23 Jul 2018 @ 9:32am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Riaa tactics

    > He appears to believe that YouTube operate in the same manner as a record label, which is utterly moronic,

    Sometimes you need to use record label hat, other times pirate hat and sometimes youtube hat to really understand what is happening in the marketplace, who is being harmed by the activity.

    It's clear that youtube built their product catalog without paying appropriate compensation to the artists, filmmakers and record labels who created the products offered in youtube's platform. Why this bullshit is acceptable, is anyone guess, but simply the arguments like "they were the first to free us from the record labels" isn't going to cut it.

    It's more general skipping of the responsibilities that we despise. Everyone is doing it, hiding it under matress, and then claiming it doesnt happen in their platform. You just need to examine the situation more carefully and you'll find they're skipping on paying the money, skipping maintaining the product or the customers, signing up people to services noone wants, spamming our email boxes, displaying adverticements, failing to collect money from the customers, secret bookkeepings and avoiding paying taxes, selling our information to adverticers, publishing our personal information without permission, doing copyright infringement, indusing other market participant to do copyright infringement on massive scale, lying on how they mark and display full price of the product they offer, skipping on their responsibility to make the product safe for end users to use, lower quality product than advertised, or any other tricks from the handbook of criminal enterprises.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  182. icon
    PaulT (profile), 23 Jul 2018 @ 11:10am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Riaa tactics

    "Sometimes you need to use record label hat"

    Even the record labels are admitting that what you are claiming is false by now.

    "It's clear that youtube built their product catalog"

    Again, they don't really have one of those. You might as well be talking about Techdirt having a catalogue because they let people like you post, despite adding nothing of value.

    "Why this bullshit is acceptable, is anyone guess"

    No, it's pretty clear for the sane and informed.

    "It's more general skipping of the responsibilities that we despise"

    Again, I ask, who is "we"? The voices in your head?

    No, what you despise is the fact that you have to hold those responsible for copyright infringement liable, rather than going after the nearest 3rd party. You don't want to actually catch the people who made threatening phone calls, you just want t sue the phone company despite them having nothing to do with the content of the call.

    "You just need to examine the situation more carefully and you'll find they're skipping on paying the money"

    If they're not paying, why did major record labels recently decide to shut down their own Vevo website in order to concentrate on their YouTube channel. Are you saying they just decided to work for free, or are you full of shit again?

    "skipping maintaining the product or the customers"

    Wow, you're now saying they don't even bother paying infrastructure costs, even though they're far more reliable than the majority of their competition?

    "secret bookkeepings and avoiding paying taxes"

    You know who is notorious for doing exactly that? The major corporations you feel obliged to defend. It's not nicknamed "Hollywood accounting" for nothing.

    "skipping on their responsibility to make the product safe for end users to use"

    Strange, neither I nor anyone I know of has suffered injury at the hands of that particular website, although your heroes in the major labels do have a history of deliberately infecting computers with malware.

    "lower quality product than advertised"

    Strange, I always get what I'm looking for, and even the worst content is worth the price they charge.

    The world as you hallucinate it sure is different from the real one.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  183. identicon
    tp, 23 Jul 2018 @ 12:23pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Riaa tactics

    > > "skipping on their responsibility to make the product safe for end users to use"

    > Strange, neither I nor anyone I know of has suffered injury at the hands of that particular website

    You gotta be kidding us. The google's ad network are sending unwanted adverticements which have black and white
    flickering animated gifs which makes your head hurt when you just look at it for 10 hours a day.

    They design those adverisements for people who use internet 2 minutes per week, but for normal people who spend all the time using internet, those signals coming from the flickering adverticements are way to powerful.

    Thank god someone invented adblock. This adverticement spamming all over the net is clearly a feature where they didn't think at all about safety issues involved in the technology they impose on us.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  184. identicon
    tp, 23 Jul 2018 @ 12:28pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Riaa tactics

    > > "It's more general skipping of the responsibilities that we despise"

    > Again, I ask, who is "we"?

    We the people. This usage of "we" is standard in situation where the same ideas are being shared by larger group of people than just one person.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  185. identicon
    tp, 23 Jul 2018 @ 12:30pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Riaa tactics

    > > "secret bookkeepings and avoiding paying taxes"

    > You know who is notorious for doing exactly that?

    Google. When their income goes to tax havens like ireland..

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  186. icon
    PaulT (profile), 23 Jul 2018 @ 12:45pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Riaa tactics

    "when you just look at it for 10 hours a day."

    Hmmm... Anyway, as I work on the internet, and thus spend a majority of the workday there, I don't believe I've seen such a thing, let alone spend that amount of time on a page without refreshing it (and so receive a different ad).

    I would also bring up the fact that flashing gifs were more of a late 90s thing. There are some big issues with modern advertising tactics, but that's not really one of them (and this was also a time where everyone who made their first webpage got all excited about using the blink tag).

    "Thank god someone invented adblock"

    Adblock, especially in its early incarnations, was really just automation of things you could do yourself

    "This adverticement spamming all over the net is clearly a feature where they didn't think at all about safety issues involved in the technology they impose on us."

    Well... the ads are what allow you to use sites like this and YouTube without paying directly. You're in a minority if you want every site to become a subscription service, but I'm sure you wouldn't be missed if you do opt to not go to ad supported sites voluntarily. It does seem rather hypocritical for someone who whines so much about people not being paid for their work, outright blocking the thing that pays the sites he uses. Why are you, by your own standards, depriving people of income?

    Yet again, this is also a strange character you play - one who claims to be a developer but hates the technology associated with it, and has no thread of logic process anywhere in what you type.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  187. icon
    PaulT (profile), 23 Jul 2018 @ 12:46pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Riaa tactics

    Perhaps, but the corporations you defend invented the practice before Google was.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  188. icon
    PaulT (profile), 23 Jul 2018 @ 12:48pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Riaa tactics

    "We the people"

    Which people? There's nobody here who agrees with your point of view, and given your basis in fantasy for most of them, I doubt there's many on other sites.

    It is a sign of a weak argument, however - you can't merely state your own opinion, you have to pretend everyone agrees with it even when evidence for that is not visible.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  189. identicon
    tp, 23 Jul 2018 @ 1:03pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Riaa tactics

    > Yet again, this is also a strange character you play

    I'm just following your discussion and opening the boxes which you are able to mention.

    > one who claims to be a developer but hates the technology associated with it,

    Yes, but I need to follow the directions where other people are leading the discussion to. I can't invent this stuff alone, but need to follow the leads whereever they're going to.

    > and has no thread of logic process anywhere in what you type.

    You're responsible of half of the hints which direct the dicussion to certain direction. Now that you moved the discussion to this area, you're complaining about the sections you opened. Every idea you mention has internal information attached to it, which you can open by mentioning the area.

    Obviously if you open RIAA's box, you'll get information about why riaa's pattern uses the practises they're famous for.

    If you open youtube box, you get information about what horror youtube is causing around the world.

    If you open the trump box, you'll get info how big impact it has this side of the globe.

    Every piece of data has important information about the how the world works - just need to accurately listen and react.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  190. identicon
    tp, 23 Jul 2018 @ 1:08pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Riaa tactics

    > Perhaps, but the corporations you defend

    Defending the weak is a good practise.

    In reality, RIAA and their member companies spent significant amount of effort to create the best music collection on the planet, only to find that the content was available for free in pirate channels. They're getting weak because the world has moved heavily against them, and given the huge effort they spent, they really deserve our support.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  191. identicon
    tp, 23 Jul 2018 @ 1:25pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Riaa tactics

    > > "We the people"

    > Which people?

    Everyone on the planet.

    > There's nobody here who agrees with your point of view,

    The word doesnt require other people to _agree_ with the views. This is because it's _impossible_ for any large group of people to agree on anything. Small groups of people can find consensus if they share ideas accurately enough, but when the group size grows larger, finding the agreement becomes more and more difficult, eventually becoming impossible.

    The trick is that this group size where this becomes impossible is surpricingly small.

    > and given your basis in fantasy for most of them,

    Lord of the Rings is fantasy, even though it's extreamly popular and nice.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  192. identicon
    tp, 23 Jul 2018 @ 2:42pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Riaa tactics

    > > "You just need to examine the situation more carefully and you'll find they're skipping on paying the money"

    > why did major record labels recently decide to shut down their own Vevo website in order to concentrate on their YouTube channel.

    Maybe it's embrace&extend plan? They first embrace youtube's system and then ruin the service...

    > Are you saying they just decided to work for free,

    Yes, people with deep pockets can sometimes work for free. It's only temporary practise, but still a possible solution to a problem that they can't get anything worthwhile done.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  193. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 23 Jul 2018 @ 5:54pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Riaa tactics

    Support? Because they spent millions of dollars on shitty algorithms and made their income by going after children who can't defend themselves? And you accuse everybody else of having a wonky moral compass...

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  194. icon
    PaulT (profile), 24 Jul 2018 @ 2:12am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Riaa tactics

    You need to slow down. Half of what you said is completely incoherent. The other is a laughable set of lies.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  195. icon
    PaulT (profile), 24 Jul 2018 @ 2:16am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Riaa tactics

    "Everyone on the planet."

    You don't speak for them though, even though you claim to be doing so. In fact, I'd wager the vast majority disagree with you.

    Speak for yourself, don't pretend to speak for others.

    "This is because it's _impossible_ for any large group of people to agree on anything"

    This is, of course, demonstrably proven wrong by many events in human history. There's a question as to whether they can agree to react in the same way or take the same action, but they can most certainly agree in a majority.

    "Lord of the Rings is fantasy, even though it's extreamly popular and nice."

    Yes. But, if someone tried to present it as reality, they'd be laughed out of the room. So, why not stop trying to present your fantasy as though it bore any relation to the real world?

    It's not your fantasy world that's the problem, it's the fact that you pretend it's the real one.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  196. icon
    PaulT (profile), 24 Jul 2018 @ 2:21am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Riaa tactics

    "Defending the weak is a good practise."

    Then why are you not defending them, and choosing to defend multi billion dollar intern

    "In reality, RIAA and their member companies spent significant amount of effort to create the best music collection on the planet"

    They also made a huge amount of money doing so, and produced and extremely large amount of crap music.

    "only to find that the content was available for free in pirate channels"

    Yet, continued to make huge amounts of money. Less than they did, perhaps, but they are still making billions.

    But, you insist on defending them, while attacking outlets like YouTube that allow true independent artists to compete on the same playing field. You attack those who supply the weak, while demanding everyone bows down to those who would not allow them in the same marketplace 20 years ago.

    Again, you are either an idiot or a proud defender of the aggressors in these scenarios.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  197. icon
    PaulT (profile), 24 Jul 2018 @ 2:29am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Riaa tactics

    "Maybe it's embrace&extend plan? They first embrace youtube's system and then ruin the service..."

    So, you're saying down that the major labels shut down their competing products, expressly stating that it's because they make more money from YouTube, in order to try and shut them down and set up a new service again in its wake.

    That is a pretty idiotic idea. Why not just accept that YouTube's infrastructure is better for them than trying to reinvent the wheel? Oh, yeah, because it undermines your lies about YouTube.

    "Yes, people with deep pockets can sometimes work for free"

    They usually don't, though. Normally, it's when a CEO of a failing company takes a $1 salary or refuses a bonus as a symbolic gesture. Not a company moving its entire product portfolio to a 3rd party that won't pay them for it (according to your scenario). The more likely thing is that they're telling the truth, and it makes more sense for them to join up with YouTube rather than compete, since most of their customers are their already.

    The problem with your scenarios is that they depend on being outlandish because you can't accept the realities of how people are doing business.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  198. identicon
    martok, 10 Aug 2018 @ 1:13am

    No worries for future

    we had denuvo cracking seminar just a month before he was caught, knowledge is now being prepared for distribution - want a copy when ready? darknetportal@protonmail.com

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]


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