Monkey Selfie Case May Settle: PETA Knows It'll Lose, And The Photographer Is Broke

from the so-settlement-makes-sense dept

It may finally be ending. The dumbest copyright lawsuit we've seen in a long time (and that's saying a lot) about a silly topic. We've been covering the story of the monkey selfie from basically the very beginning (and often get mentioned in stories about it, as we'll discuss below). But, the story that began as a weird quirk of explaining how copyright law works -- and how many people don't believe it works the way it does -- got stupid in a hurry once PETA and the formerly respected law firm of Irell & Manella got involved. And, now, finally, the case may be ending in a settlement.

A settlement totally makes sense here, because the plaintiff knows it's going to lose in embarrassing fashion if the case moves forward, and the defendant is broke, in part because of this case (though some people -- including the photographer -- appear to be partially blaming us*). If you somehow haven't followed this story the very, very quick recap is that a photographer named David Slater went to Indonesia where he was taking photographs in a national park, and at some point at least one (and possibly more?) macaque monkeys played with his camera and took some photos with it, including some selfies, which were mildly amusing. As we noted in a long discussion on this, technically the photos are almost certainly in the public domain (read that post to learn why if you don't believe it). David Slater disagrees with this and insists the copyright is his, and has had various representatives at times send totally bogus and severely confused threat letters. However, nearly all serious legal commentary has recognized that the works are in the public domain. That's just how copyright law works, whether you like it or not.

Either way, there's one thing that Slater and I agree on: the monkey doesn't hold the copyright... and PETA (an organization that often seems to care more about publicity stunts than animals) two years ago kicked off a monumentally dumb lawsuit against Slater, claiming that the monkey held the copyright and that PETA represented the monkey. And, again, this can't be stated often enough: PETA brought on a previously respected copyright law firm, Irell & Manella, to handle this case and they proceeded to make some really crazy arguments, including suggesting that every work must have a copyright -- apparently writing the public domain right out of the law.

Either way, PETA lost badly in court, but still appealed. That appeal has not gone well. At a hearing last month, it appears that the judges could barely contain their laughter at just how stupid a lawsuit this really is. PETA knows it's going to lose and lose badly -- and thus has every incentive to settle this case before such a ruling is released.

As for Slater, well, he's been telling reporters that he's completely broke -- so clearly he has incentive to just get the case over with as well. And, I feel for him. Being sued over a completely bogus claim totally sucks. I know that all too well. So it's pretty sensible that all the parties in the lawsuit have told the court to hold off on ruling while they work out a settlement.

And, really, what a despicable case this was by PETA and Irell & Manella. Yes, I know that PETA's whole schtick is to do ridiculous publicity stunts, but this one had real costs. It wasted a bunch of time in the courts, and was really damaging to David Slater, who didn't deserve to be dragged into court by such an organization. One hopes that, at the very least, part of the settlement includes an apology.


* So, this is kind of a separate issue, but Slater occasionally points to Techdirt's articles about why the photos are in the public domain as part of the problem -- and the recent reporting on his claims of being broke have more or less repeated this. The first report we saw, in the Guardian, mentions us and Wikipedia as "refusing" to take the images down -- which... leaves out a big part of the story (i.e., it was in the context of explaining why the work was in the public domain under copyright law). We actually had a few angry people contact us over the Guardian story not realizing the details.

But that was nothing compared to what happened when the Daily Mail, the UK's worst newspaper, basically tried to rewrite the Guardian story and twisted our role even more:

His problems began when Californian-based blog Techdirt and the online encyclopedia Wikipedia (whose mission statement is 'to empower and engage people around the world to collect and develop educational content under a free licence or in the public domain') muscled in.

"Muscled in?" Guys, all we did was write (accurately, I may add!) about the copyright issues when a monkey takes a selfie. That's not "muscling in." That's journalism. The Daily Mail might want to try it some day.

They claimed the image was uncopyrightable because the monkey was the creator — and so they uploaded the picture onto their websites, free for anyone to use. To Dave, this was an assault on his livelihood.

Understandably, he asked Techdirt and Wikipedia to stop using the pictures — but they refused. Faced with little choice, Dave decided to sue for up to £18,000, saying: 'There's a lot more to copyright than who pushes the trigger.'

At least the Daily Mail mentions that we explained why the work is in the public domain, but they make it sound like we were the ones doing the initial distribution of the photo. That's crazy. It was all over the internet. In fact, uh, we first read about the monkey in the Daily Fucking Mail. Seriously. Go look at the link in our first story. You want to know where we first got the photograph? The Daily Mail. Yet now the Daily Mail is blaming us for making the photo available? Are you fucking kidding me?

And, I have no idea what the hell they're talking about saying that Slater sued us for £18,000. This is the first we've heard of it.

But, here's the thing: after the Daily Mail article went online, we started getting quite a bit of hate mail, accusing us of bankrupting Slater. I feel bad for Slater, as his situation sounds bad. But we didn't sue him. We didn't take away his livelihood. We explained the law. That's it. You might not like the law, but the law would have been the same whether or not we wrote about it. Slater wouldn't have had the copyright either way. It's fair to blame PETA for hurting Slater, because they sued him for no damn reason at all. But we just reported on the situation accurately -- something it would be nice if the Daily Mail tried once in a while.


Reader Comments

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  1. icon
    Ninja (profile), 7 Aug 2017 @ 8:04am

    I also feel for Slater but let's leave reminders here:

    https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20110712/01182015052/monkeys-dont-do-fair-use-news-agency-tel ls-techdirt-to-remove-photos.shtml
    https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20140806/07044228126/photographe r-still-insisting-he-holds-copyright-photo-monkey-threatens-to-sue-wikimedia.shtml

    He started the lawsuit happy environment and PETA was happy to jump in and throw a lot of shit in the fan.

    That said, PETA is poisonous to the very cause they claim to fight for. I'm hoping they can't settle and have to pay every single cent and the lawyers get sanctioned for the frivolous lawsuit. Let's hope it gets too risky to defend PETA in courts so they'll be neutralized on that front.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  2. icon
    hij (profile), 7 Aug 2017 @ 8:18am

    Perfect Shit Storm

    So the photographer thought he hit the mother lode but in the end his greed and refusal to back down turned out to be his unraveling. This would make a great children's story if it had not been told a million times already in every form imaginable. Well, almost every form. The one involving a person trying to exploit curiously vain monkeys who was in turn exploited by curiously vain apes posing as animal rights champions is a fresh new take. Now to figure out how to make it rhyme.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  3. icon
    TechDescartes (profile), 7 Aug 2017 @ 9:21am

    Moving On

    'My daughter tells everyone her daddy took the monkey selfie, but I've got nothing to give her from it.

    'I can't send her to the school we want, or even think about paying her university fees when the time comes. And all could have been sorted out with one photograph.'

    Most hurtfully, he's stopped taking pictures. 'The magic's gone. I get my camera out every now and again to try to recapture the joy, but I don't seem able to. This was my livelihood.

    'I didn't want to make lots of money — I just wanted a fair wage for my work, something to pass on to our daughter.'

    The crazy popularity of one photograph is worth very little. Slater obviously thought that he'd won the lottery. TechDirt pointed out that the numbers on his ticket didn't match the numbers in the drawing. Therefore, in his mind, it is TechDirt's fault that he didn't win the lottery.

    What he doesn't seem to grasp is that this was a fifteen-minutes-of-fame photograph. Everyone has moved on, except Slater and PETA. And now PETA is moving on because an adverse decision may cost them fees to Slater and, more importantly, simply doesn't draw attention like it did a few years ago. No news is bad news for PETA.

    P.S. Maybe you could sue the Daily Mail for defamation under the lax British laws to provide for your own defense. And these guys.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  4. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 7 Aug 2017 @ 9:40am

    Re: Moving On

    'My daughter tells everyone her daddy took the monkey selfie, but I've got nothing to give her from it.

    Either she needs more schooling, or maybe counseling; why is she calling her father a monkey anyway?

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  5. icon
    aerinai (profile), 7 Aug 2017 @ 9:42am

    Re: Moving On

    What I don't get is he could still capitalize off of it... He can make prints... he can sign it... he can literally do whatever he wants with this picture. Fair Use and Public Domain doesn't mean that what he has created can't be monetized... you just have to make a market for it.

    A great example of this is I could print my favorite XKCD print off the internet and hang it on my wall (which is legal under CC BY-NC 2.5 license), but I'd rather spend $25 to buy it from the guy that created it. It helps him, I get signed art, and everyone leaves happy.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  6. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 7 Aug 2017 @ 9:53am

    Re: Moving On

    'I didn't want to make lots of money — I just wanted a fair wage for my work, something to pass on to our daughter.'

    Well then maybe self-employment is the wrong avenue if he thinks that just putting in hard work = getting money.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  7. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 7 Aug 2017 @ 9:55am

    Where did the guy get this idea that a single photograph could be sold for so much he could send his kid to private schools for the rest of her education. It could have all been solved be proclaims! If could I could have made money off of it. Who are all these people looking to license this photograph besides news people talking about the copywrite suit?

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  8. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 7 Aug 2017 @ 9:56am

    Re: Perfect Shit Storm

    >Now to figure out how to make it rhyme.


    There once was a monkey macaque,
    Who took a selfie that created some flak.
    The photographer sued, then PETA did too,
    Now he's lost the shirt off his back.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  9. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 7 Aug 2017 @ 9:58am

    Re: Moving On

    'The magic's gone. I get my camera out every now and again to try to recapture the joy, but I don't seem able to. This was my livelihood.

    So he letting the popularity of a picture taken by accident destroy his career as a photographer. That is a sign of jealousy to the point of insanity. He should have shrugged and moved on, and figured out how to get animals close to a camera he controlled, or had set tp as a trap camera.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  10. identicon
    John, 7 Aug 2017 @ 10:01am

    Daily Mail

    If the Daily Mail is the worst paper in the world, why did Techdirt believe the quotes and story in it back in 2011? A case of confirmation bias maybe? After all, you did appear to base your arguments upon this newspaper and the quotes allegedly from Slater's own mouth. Looks like Techdirt are trying to wriggle from guilt. Did you ever read the story in The Guardian or on Slater's website itself, from which it is clear the monkey only pressed the button hwereas Slater set up the camera? But Masnick and his childish grouppies want the public to somehow think photography is only about button pressing. You low lifes! As a site claiming some expertise on copyright, you are provably fraudulaent, and if anyone ever believes this site again, or worse, steals Slater's images because of this, is possibly going to regret it.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  11. identicon
    Another Anonymous Coward, 7 Aug 2017 @ 10:06am

    Re: Re: Moving On

    'My daughter tells everyone her daddy took the monkey selfie'

    Uhh, isn't selfie a contraction for self portrait? So this guy's daughter is telling everyone her daddy is a monkey? Very perceptive child.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  12. identicon
    Jordan Chandler, 7 Aug 2017 @ 10:07am

    Joking

    Are you joking?

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  13. identicon
    dr evil, 7 Aug 2017 @ 10:08am

    could have avoided it all

    by claiming to either trigger the camera remotely, or claimed to have set it (the camera) up to take pictures continuously - the entire debacle could have been avoided. But Slater did get that valuable 15 minutes of fame, yes?

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

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    identicon
    John, 7 Aug 2017 @ 10:13am

    Re: Re: Moving On

    He has been trying to do this for year, if it were not for Wikipedia promtoing theft of his work. I rememebr he offered free canvas prints. He donated to the monkeys off sales of his work. He seems to have done all the right things to help the monkeys but it's only backfired each time because of sites like this encouraging theft, and of course the lying and detestable Wikipedia.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  15. icon
    TechDescartes (profile), 7 Aug 2017 @ 10:16am

    Re: Daily Mail

    Did you ever read the story in The Guardian or on Slater's website itself, from which it is clear the monkey only pressed the button hwereas Slater set up the camera?

    Nice try. In that very first Daily Mail story, Slater admitted that the macaque knocked over the camera and then proceeded to take "hundreds" of photos:

    'One of them must have accidentally knocked the camera and set it off because the sound caused a bit of a frenzy, said Slater, 46.

    'At first there was a lot of grimacing with their teeth showing because it was probably the first time they had ever seen a reflection.

    'They were quite mischievous jumping all over my equipment, and it looked like they were already posing for the camera when one hit the button.

    'The sound got his attention and he kept pressing it

    'At first it scared the rest of them away but they soon came back - it was amazing to watch.

    'He must have taken hundreds of pictures by the time I got my camera back, but not very many were in focus. He obviously hadn't worked that out yet.

    'I wish I could have stayed longer as he probably would have taken a full family album.'

    Only after the copyright issue came to light did Slater first claim that he was the creative force behind the photographs:

    So it is that for the past six years he has been embroiled in what must be one of the most pointless, idiotic, money-wasting andaggressive legal battles of all time. So, who owns the copyright? Dave or the monkey?

    Dave has never been in any doubt. 'Of course it was my copyright!' he says. 'I set the background. I decided where the sun was going to hit the monkey.

    'I selected the lens and I processed the images. The creativity was all mine, and it required a lot of perseverance, sweat and anguish.'

    Only after meeting with a lawyer did he change his tune from hope-the-monkey-takes-a-family-album to it-was-all-me-I-promise-and-I'm-sweaty-and-anguished.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  16. This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it
    identicon
    John, 7 Aug 2017 @ 10:17am

    Re: Moving On

    You utterly pathetic morons. But this is what I have come to expect of techdirt and it's self-serving, rejected by women- batchelors and spotty teenage tits stealing everything from pics to music to put on their social justice warrior youtube shite.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  17. icon
    wshuff (profile), 7 Aug 2017 @ 10:17am

    Re: Daily Mail

    Exactly! Photography isn't about buttons. I mean, the real unsung heroes are the manufacturers who make the cameras. They're the ones getting screwed here. Without them, Slater couldn't have set up the camera so the monkey could push the button to take the selfie. Who's looking out for the camera manufacturers? Certainly not Peta. And not Techdirt.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  18. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 7 Aug 2017 @ 10:18am

    Re: Re: Re: Moving On

    I hope you are being sarcastic. Otherwise you are a fucking idiot.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  19. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 7 Aug 2017 @ 10:19am

    Re: Daily Mail

    Go home Shiva you're still drunk.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  20. This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it
    identicon
    John, 7 Aug 2017 @ 10:21am

    Re: Re: Daily Mail

    Why do some people believe everything a newspaper states when it confirm their bias, and then say they are the worst newspaper when it doesn't suit?

    When you read Slater's original story up against the Daily Mail story you use to back up your argument (so The Daily Mail is a reputable source for you, TechDescartes!!!!) it is very clear what happened. Slater set up the shoot, dialled in the settings, let the monkey press the button. Slater has copyright. What is it about your doublespeaking thick head you can't grasp? Answer - you believe in Techdirt. Nuff Said my controlled sheeple memeber.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  21. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 7 Aug 2017 @ 10:22am

    Re: Re: Moving On

    Funny you should pick the name commonly assigned to people who have to pay for sex. Kinda Freudian me thinks.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  22. This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it
    identicon
    John, 7 Aug 2017 @ 10:23am

    Re: Re: Daily Mail

    And who set up the internet for you to Troll? Everything you say is really down to what the internet tells you to think. Sheeple is to kinda word for Techdirtshitheads.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  23. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 7 Aug 2017 @ 10:27am

    Re: Re: Re: Daily Mail

    Sheeple, That's the free space on the conspiracy nut bingo card.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  24. This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it
    identicon
    John, 7 Aug 2017 @ 10:27am

    Re:

    Well maybe because its been used by companies, including this one, to promote themselves. Over 50 million uses I believe. The most popular image since the moon landings I would guess. So why won;t he think he could have made enough money to support his child and family? You try being a freelance photographer when sites like TechShit encourage the public to steal?

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  25. icon
    hij (profile), 7 Aug 2017 @ 10:27am

    Re: Re: Re: Moving On

    Since you are so fond of wikipedia you might want to try and read these:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theft

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_infringement

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  26. icon
    orbitalinsertion (profile), 7 Aug 2017 @ 10:28am

    Re: Daily Mail

    why did Techdirt believe the quotes and story in it back in 2011?

    Why, are they disputed? What's your point?

    Looks like Techdirt are trying to wriggle from guilt.

    Your general intent here is obvious, but makes as little sense as the string of words you used in attempt to convey it.

    As a site claiming some expertise on copyright, you are provably fraudulaent,

    [Aforementioned proof required]

    and if anyone ever believes this site again, or worse, steals Slater's images because of this, is possibly going to regret it.

    Excepting that Slater's monkey selfie pics are in the public domain by definition. Awesome he set up the camera and all, but he had no control over the actual subject of the photograph(s).

    The sad thing here is he could have converted interest in this photo into lots of well-paying work and sales instead of trying to exert control over one image. Here's the guy who goes to some interesting places, and not without effort or hardship, and seems to have done pretty good work. And any of his work would have a measure of recognition as "from the man who brought us the monkey selfie". Now he's the guy who sent wack legal threats then got sued by a non-profit organization of loons. I rather imagine one bit of recognition, and not losing interest in one's calling, is better than the other form of recognition and being too upset to continue as a photographer. It's the result of poor decision making and an unreasonable will to control influenced by a horrifically bad climate of copyright trolling.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  27. This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it
    identicon
    John, 7 Aug 2017 @ 10:28am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Daily Mail

    Nah, it;'s an accurate description of Techdirt followers - yeah, followers. FOLLOWERS. UNTHINKING FOLLOWERS... or in shorthand, Sheeple.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  28. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 7 Aug 2017 @ 10:30am

    Re: Re:

    Im sorry you don't understand copyright law. Do however try to keep your whining to a minimum, snowflake. The adults are trying to have a conversation.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  29. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 7 Aug 2017 @ 10:32am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Daily Mail

    You see that everybody... he came up with that insult all by himself! What a big boy!

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  30. identicon
    David, 7 Aug 2017 @ 10:33am

    He wants money for his Monkey Selfie?

    I hope he gets a fortune from PETA.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  31. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 7 Aug 2017 @ 10:35am

    Re: Re: Re: Moving On

    Uhh, isn't selfie a contraction for self portrait?

    A self-photograph, specifically, and by connotation, a bad one (usually with an arm/stick in the frame, and often improperly framed).

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  32. icon
    TechDescartes (profile), 7 Aug 2017 @ 10:35am

    Re: Re: Re: Daily Mail

    No, John. Slater didn't "set up the shoot, dial[] in the settings, let the monkey press the button." I quoted the original Daily Mail story above. I'll quote it again:

    He must have taken hundreds of pictures by the time I got my camera back, but not very many were in focus. He obviously hadn't worked that out yet.

    'I wish I could have stayed longer as he probably would have taken a full family album.'

    Are you saying that the Daily Mail misquoted Slater? Or that Slater was lying when he said that? It seems that the only one who has a problem with the original Daily Mail story is you.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  33. icon
    Ryunosuke (profile), 7 Aug 2017 @ 10:38am

    There is a reason it's second name is the "Daily Fail". Yes occasionally they do a reasonable article, but that is like finding a gold nugget in a pile of shit. Who's gonna want to dig in a pile of shit for that rare gold nugget?

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  34. This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it
    identicon
    John, 7 Aug 2017 @ 10:39am

    Re: Re: Daily Mail

    You are a classic example of knowing zip about copyright and public domain especially. The proff of techdirt's fraudulence is in the way you encourage therft of a copyrighted work without so much as a reasoned argument or effort to research the topic from the source - Mr Slater's website! QED.

    But this is why you, Orbitalinserting knobhead, visit this site isn't it? To be comforted by like minded thieves who wish to ruin artists livelihoods. Let's face it, you are so talentless you can't create your own works of art. You want to be a parasite don;t you?

    Copyright is an incentive for creative people to entertain us, and Slater certainly has done this. he derves to profit from his pics.

    He shoul also be recognised for the conservation aspect of all this. Something Techshits will never care about I reckon.

    Actions of people like you who encourage theft by stating a falsehood about the pics public domain status, is stifling creativity. Techdirt and Wikipedia are clearly monopolising the idea of steal first, claim innocence later. Copyright is Slaters and he should determine who uses it and how much he wants to make from it.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  35. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 7 Aug 2017 @ 10:42am

    Re: Re: Re: Daily Mail

    Nothing is sadder or more bitter than a failed artist.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  36. icon
    Killercool (profile), 7 Aug 2017 @ 10:44am

    Re: Re: Re: Daily Mail

    Even if it WAS copyrighted, by reporting about it, TechDirt would be within the boundaries of fair use to post the picture.

    But the idea of fair use burns you like acid, too, doesn't it?

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  37. This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it
    identicon
    John, 7 Aug 2017 @ 10:46am

    Re: Re: Re:

    I can see you're an American lefty snowflake yourself, Mr. Anonymous Coward. The world has had enough of yankie nazis posing as socially aware "wawwiors"!

    ANONYMOUS and COWARDLY. Social Justice Mangina Owning "Wawwior". Too afraid to raise your pathetic head into the spotlight eh? Get into the man's world little fluffy boy. Thanks for your petty little whine Fluffy.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  38. This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it
    identicon
    John, 7 Aug 2017 @ 10:48am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Daily Mail

    So the Daily Mail is reputable then! Why keep quoting from the Daily Mail. Your LEADER says it's the worst paper in the world! Get with the preaching and do as your master commands.

    Can I suggest you quote all the newspapers from this year, or even Slater's website, or the Guardian from 2011? Why you insisting the Daily Mail is reputable now?

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  39. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 7 Aug 2017 @ 10:50am

    Re: Re: Re: Re:

    Sorry you got triggered, boy.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  40. This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it
    identicon
    John, 7 Aug 2017 @ 10:51am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Daily Mail

    And once again the sheepla who follow Masnick in their unswerving faith based religion know nothing about Fair Use either.

    What is fair about accreditation to a monkey or Wikipedia or the public domain when it is a lie. What is fair to rip off a photographer's copyrighted pic? Know what you are talking about befiore you try to be clever. Being clever is not following the Sheeple on this site but it is thinking for yourself and doing your own research.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  41. This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it
    identicon
    John, 7 Aug 2017 @ 10:52am

    Re:

    And Techdirt's more well known name is TechSHIT.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  42. identicon
    rk57957, 7 Aug 2017 @ 10:54am

    Re: Re: Re: Daily Mail

    >Copyright is an incentive for creative people to entertain us, and Slater certainly has done this. he derves to profit from his pics.

    Not according to the law.

    >He shoul also be recognised for the conservation aspect of all this. Something Techshits will never care about I reckon.

    This has no actual bearing when discussing copyright. I helped someone change their tire the other day, recycle, and donated to several charities ... and this has no actual relevance when discussing copy right. If you are also curious for other things that have no relation to the discussion at hand I had a soda at lunch, I am wearing shoes, and it rained today.

    >You are a classic example of knowing zip about copyright and public domain especially. The proff of techdirt's fraudulence is in the way you encourage therft of a copyrighted work without so much as a reasoned argument or effort to research the topic from the source - Mr Slater's website! QED.

    Mr. Slater's website is not a source for discussing copy right law. If you want Mr. Slater's opinion on what copy right law should be that would be a good source but if you actually want to know what the copy right law is ... I'd suggest starting here https://www.copyright.gov/title17/.

    And according to the law (and unfortunately for Mr. Slater) he does not get, let me repeat that for you, he does not get copyright on that particular picture. You may think it is unfair and you may think he should but that is your opinion on the matter not what the law states.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  43. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 7 Aug 2017 @ 10:55am

    Re: Re:

    See he came up with that all by himself too. He is a big boy now!

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  44. This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it
    identicon
    John, 7 Aug 2017 @ 10:58am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Daily Mail

    Small penised coward hiding behind anonymity. Cowardly moron. You need to cum into the man's world, because I can see women aren't your thing. Idiot.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  45. icon
    K`Tetch (profile), 7 Aug 2017 @ 10:58am

    Re: could have avoided it all

    He has, NOW.

    The stories about the selfies hit in July 2011. In September his website changed, giving a new story that he set up remote triggers, with autofocus, and flashguns.
    Only problem is, he said most of the photos were out of focus in July, and the pictures quite clearly show no flash (you can make out the gaps in the jungle canopy in the eyes) and no tripod.

    He tried exactly what you said, but too late.

    of course, a remotely triggered photo wouldn't have made it interesting anyway, there are loads of those.

    The very fact that made it marketable, is the fact that makes it uncopyrightable.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  46. icon
    K`Tetch (profile), 7 Aug 2017 @ 10:59am

    No copyright on the Daily Mail story

    clearly it was written and published by monkeys too.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  47. icon
    orbitalinsertion (profile), 7 Aug 2017 @ 10:59am

    Re: Re: Re: Daily Mail

    This is what an argumentum ad hominem is, even if the hominem is actually a corporation. The fact that The Daily Mail is a ball of crap does not have any bearing on undisputed quotations. If they are in dispute, Slater could have taken a far more profitable course of suing the paper for libel, in the land of easy libel suits, no less. Perhaps you could point out where his original story has any bearing on this.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  48. identicon
    Thad, 7 Aug 2017 @ 11:00am

    though some people -- including the photographer -- appear to be partially blaming us

    Wait, the monkey?

    Now that you mention it, I do see him pretty frequently in the comments.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  49. identicon
    Thad, 7 Aug 2017 @ 11:01am

    Re: Re:

    And Techdirt's more well known name is TechSHIT.

    Oh snap, did you come up with that sick burn all by yourself, or did you have help from a monkey?

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  50. This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it
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    John, 7 Aug 2017 @ 11:01am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Moving On

    Or the sheeple may like to fread this:

    www.wikipediocracy.com

    The attempted usurpation of fact by consensus. Rule by fake news. Wikipedia!

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  51. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 7 Aug 2017 @ 11:02am

    Re: Re:

    For somebody that feels that way about Techdirt, you sure do spend a lot of time here in the comments!! You know the (X) button you can click to close this window? I recommend doing so such that you will no longer have to put up with this site and how it makes your feelz hurtz.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  52. This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it
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    John, 7 Aug 2017 @ 11:02am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    What's being triggered, girl?

    Do explain.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  53. identicon
    Baron von Robber, 7 Aug 2017 @ 11:03am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Daily Mail

    I'm beginning to think a camera isn't the only thing the monkey got a hold of....

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  54. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 7 Aug 2017 @ 11:04am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Daily Mail

    It's getting more Freudian in here by the minute.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  55. This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it
    identicon
    John, 7 Aug 2017 @ 11:05am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Daily Mail

    Bullshititum dominatum.

    The story in the daily Mail was clearly a fun story. Are some cult Techshites here so naive to not know English humor? It was fun and I guess inaccurate to encourage laughs.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  56. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 7 Aug 2017 @ 11:05am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Daily Mail

    This sounds like it came from Trump's twitter account

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  57. icon
    Killercool (profile), 7 Aug 2017 @ 11:06am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Daily Mail

    You might try that "research" thing yourself, even though you keep imagining reasons why any source we find is invalid.

    If Fair Use is in play, it doesn't matter who owns the copyright. Fair Use would still apply if FULL AND UNDISPUTED copyright was held by the photographer.

    That said, Wikipedia has never been attributed ownership of the picture. The macaque definitely took the picture, though, so if he was legally capable of holding a copyright, it would be his. Since the "artist" can't have a copyright, then the photo can only be public domain.

    If you want more research than I can get from reputable sources, that's called "original research," and it's generally considered unacceptable without peer review.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  58. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 7 Aug 2017 @ 11:06am

    Re: Moving On

    'My daughter tells everyone her daddy took the monkey selfie...'

    Using your own child to spread lies for you is despicable.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  59. This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it
    identicon
    John, 7 Aug 2017 @ 11:08am

    Re: Re: Re:

    Stumbled on this site, unfortunately a few years ago. Saw it on Google. Techshit offends me because it is full of shit. But hey, I'm having fun. It's easy here. You lot have no intelligent arguments about copyright. I'm trolling the trolls!

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  60. This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it
    identicon
    John, 7 Aug 2017 @ 11:09am

    Re:

    Masnick isn't a monkey, he's a failed copyright expert.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  61. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 7 Aug 2017 @ 11:13am

    Re: Re: Re: Re:

    ANONYMOUS and COWARDLY.

    That's really funny coming from someone themselves posting anonymously. Hey, John, if you're so brave, go ahead and post your real full name and address.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  62. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 7 Aug 2017 @ 11:14am

    Re: Re: Re: Re:

    Oh yes who, but a five year old can argue against the genius that is Techshit. We are ceretainly in awe of your ability shit the thread.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  63. icon
    Oblate (profile), 7 Aug 2017 @ 11:17am

    I guess it's too late now...

    He should have just given the monkey a banana and called the selfie a work for hire...

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  64. icon
    Anonymous Anonymous Coward (profile), 7 Aug 2017 @ 11:28am

    Re: Re: Re: Re:

    I like this guy. He really has something to say:

    "Bloviate Blather, Bloviate Blather, Bloviate Blather..."

    The he gets creative:

    "Blather Bloviate, Blather Bloviate, Blather Bloviate..."

    Can't wait to see what he comes up with next.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  65. identicon
    John, 7 Aug 2017 @ 11:35am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    After you Mr Trump....

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  66. This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it
    identicon
    John, 7 Aug 2017 @ 11:36am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Daily Mail

    Maybe I am Trump, clown.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  67. identicon
    michael, 7 Aug 2017 @ 11:39am

    Re: Re: Re: Daily Mail

    "Copyright is an incentive for creative people to entertain us, and Slater certainly has done this."

    Except for the part where he specifically said that none of the monkey images involved his own creativity, thus negating his copyright claim.

    This isn't a difficult concept to understand, and the contention around it is puzzling.

    Either Slater lied and negated his own copyright, or he told the truth and doesn't deserve it.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  68. This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it
    identicon
    John, 7 Aug 2017 @ 11:39am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Daily Mail

    The MOST invalid source of the monkey selfie saga is Techshit.

    Macaques don't take pictures, humans do. Macaques press buttons, humans set up the rest. Why do you wawwiors not see this.

    And are you now suggesting the Daily Nail is peer reviewed?

    Is Wikipedia peer reviewed?

    Idiots under the spell of consensus reality would say so.

    Intelligent folk, including law courts, see facts, not Techshit drivel.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  69. icon
    frank87 (profile), 7 Aug 2017 @ 11:41am

    Re: Re:

    Earning the money to get your girl through college in 5 minutes of work, is the gamblers delusion.
    It's used by copyright industry to get a steady flow of reasonable content cheaply.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  70. This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it
    identicon
    John, 7 Aug 2017 @ 11:41am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Daily Mail

    Yeh right! Mr Slater was the only person there. His account is as close as you get to the source. His argument is valid not techshit's nor any other anonymous coward trying to justify their theft or girly beliefs in what is fair.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  71. This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it
    identicon
    John, 7 Aug 2017 @ 11:43am

    Re: Re: Re:

    Yeah, came up with this myself. It's called cweativity my girl. Dya know what cweativity is girl? It's something you haven't ... girly boy.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  72. This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it
    identicon
    John, 7 Aug 2017 @ 11:44am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    As this website and comment section deserves the greatest amount of monkey shit possible. I do hope Mr Slater is reading this and tells his attorney.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  73. icon
    frank87 (profile), 7 Aug 2017 @ 11:46am

    Re: Re:

    It's an honour to meet you. You're exactly the way I expected you to be.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  74. This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it
    identicon
    John, 7 Aug 2017 @ 11:46am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    Hey Mangina, you daring wawwior dude you. You are so creative maybe you'ld like to copyright "biather biovate, biovate biather, biovate blather". I would add to that sentence Bullshit, cos you are full of the stuff.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  75. This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it
    identicon
    John, 7 Aug 2017 @ 11:49am

    Re: Re: Re:

    Pathetic comment from a pathetic trollite of Masnick. No honor in meeting you Fwank.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  76. This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it
    identicon
    John, 7 Aug 2017 @ 11:51am

    It's been nice to meet Techshit acolites

    Nice to know you lot, I have work to do. You may think of getting some work yourselves someday. Stop watching porn is my advice to you all.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  77. icon
    Anonymous Anonymous Coward (profile), 7 Aug 2017 @ 11:53am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    Just as I suspected...eloquence personified.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  78. identicon
    rk57957, 7 Aug 2017 @ 12:01pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Daily Mail

    >Yeh right! Mr Slater was the only person there. His account is as close as you get to the source. His argument is valid not techshit's nor any other anonymous coward trying to justify their theft or girly beliefs in what is fair.

    No, that is not how the law works. If you are going to make the claim that is how copyright law works you are either a) willfully stupid or b) willfully stupid. Copyright law is very specific on when copy right can be claimed. By Mr. Slater's own explanation of the account he is not the copy right holder. His argument claiming that he is doesn't matter because legally he is not. If it comes down to someone's opinion on how the law should work and how the law is written guess which wins? Hint it is the way the law is written.

    You can argue any other way you want but if your entire line of reasoning that Mr. Slater was there so he must hold the copyright then you are being willfully stupid. Stop being willfully stupid. Copy right law is very clear on this and I have the feeling the only reasoning you won't acknowledge it is a) your being willfully stupid b) you hate techdirt and you need a reason to bash them c) you think Mr. Slater should have the copyright even though the law says he doesn't or d) you're feeling yourself up right now because you get your jollies off being an obstinate ass on the internet ... or e) all of the above.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  79. icon
    Vidiot (profile), 7 Aug 2017 @ 12:02pm

    Re: Re: Re:

    If he only spent as much time on spelling as on trolling...

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  80. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 7 Aug 2017 @ 12:09pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    There's a guy round here that likes to eat paint. I think you two would really get along. You could go out for a Ttianium White milkshake, get to know each other. Maybe fall in love,and have a couple of children with an odd number of chromosomes. Finally find the happiness you seek in his pale anemic arms.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  81. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 7 Aug 2017 @ 12:13pm

    Re: Re: Re: Moving On

    Is "John" your middle name, David Slater?

    Anyway, you may want to put the crack pipe down, I think it's about to burn your fingers.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  82. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 7 Aug 2017 @ 12:16pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Daily Mail

    No maybe about it, you are definitely a trump clown.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  83. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 7 Aug 2017 @ 12:17pm

    Re: Re: Daily Mail

    It's not Shiva, I'm pretty sure it's Slater himself.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  84. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 7 Aug 2017 @ 12:20pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Daily Mail

    "justify their theft or girly beliefs"

    David, why do you hate girls so? Couldn't get a date to the prom?

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  85. This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it
    identicon
    John, 7 Aug 2017 @ 12:22pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Daily Mail

    Where did Slaetr specifically say this - give me a video of this, not a cherry picked Daily Mail account that must be true - unless it you don;t like it, then it's a lie. Here's to the Doublespeaking brainwashed fools that you are.

    Why do you lot believe everything you read? You must be American for goodness sakes!!! The world knows you are controlled this way!

    Confirmational bias is the answer. This has no meaning in law. You're a fwaud Techshit. I am beginning to believe that Masnick is behind everyone of the comments here. A fwaud Mr Masthick, you're a fwaud. Stop trawwing your own site Mr Masthick.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  86. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 7 Aug 2017 @ 12:33pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Daily Mail

    Do you smell toast?

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  87. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 7 Aug 2017 @ 12:34pm

    Re: It's been nice to meet Techshit acolites

    Right, that jizz ain't gonna mop up itself.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  88. This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it
    identicon
    Johm, 7 Aug 2017 @ 12:38pm

    Re: Re: could have avoided it all

    Prove how his website changed. Specious argument in the extreme.

    Your argument is as fallacious as Masthick. And again, you quote the "worst paper in the world " - not by me but by your cult leader Masthick.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  89. This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it
    identicon
    John, 7 Aug 2017 @ 12:47pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Moving On

    The usual unprovable unresearched assertions common to you Techsitians. Nice try Mike.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  90. identicon
    Thad, 7 Aug 2017 @ 12:49pm

    Re: Re: Re: could have avoided it all

    ...did you just misspell your own name?

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  91. icon
    TechDescartes (profile), 7 Aug 2017 @ 12:50pm

    Re: Re: Re: Moving On

    He donated to the monkeys off sales of his work.

    Actually, no. According to his website, that's new as of last month:

    NEW! As of July 2017, I will be donating 10% of your purchase towards a monkey conservation project in Sulawesi.

    Or am I not supposed to believe his website, either?

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  92. identicon
    SpaceLifeForm=, 7 Aug 2017 @ 12:53pm

    Naruto is a great troll

    PETA and someone that goes by 'john', have bitten on the bait. There is no wonder why Naruto has that shit eating grin.

    Maybe Naruto needs to hire a lawyer to sue for misappropriation. Call it the Crested Macaques Survival Fund. Maybe Jeff Kerr would do it pro bono. He is familiar with Naruto by now (but not legally a friend), and he has access to plenty of photographic evidence that he could obtain for free from the internet.

    Naruto would have to appear in court, but that could probably be handled remotely using the internet, and imagine this, a streaming camera!

    Naruto could even then do a live demo for the court demonstrating that Naruto does in fact understand cam tech!

    Why PETA did not think of this in first place is a mystery.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  93. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 7 Aug 2017 @ 12:54pm

    Re: Re: Re: Daily Mail

    Skip the whole TechDirt fiasco and just answer me one question. Why is Slater losing the lawsuit then? Should have been open and shut case and he owns the copyright, instead it is this long going copyright battle.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  94. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 7 Aug 2017 @ 12:58pm

    Fraudster?

    Slater occasionally points to Techdirt's articles about why the photos are in the public domain as part of the problem

    It sounds to me like Slater was hoping to pull off a fraud by claiming a copyright that he didn't have. However, the publicity in the press from Techdirt and others made that fraud more difficult. So, yeah, I could see how that would be a problem for him. And I'm glad.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  95. icon
    Steerpike (profile), 7 Aug 2017 @ 1:00pm

    Re: Re: Re: Moving On

    Problem with this assessment is there is no infringement (or theft, if you prefer that term) because the photographer had no legal right to exclusive use of the photo to begin with. There is no copyright in it, and that would be his only means of controlling the photo's reproduction etc. Since it is in the public domain and free for anyone to use, promoting "theft" of it is impossible.*

    *this all applies to the U.S.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  96. identicon
    Wendy Cockcroft, 7 Aug 2017 @ 1:02pm

    Re: Re: Re: Daily Mail

    It might not be, Slater has moved on, per the article.

    The Daily Mail has oases of news in a sea of twaddle. It often makes up stories, e.g. the psycho ex-girlfriend dentist. It's basically a rage manufacturing machine, so the Slater story fits nicely in there.

    Slater unfortunately believed that a) Copyright is a fountain flowing deep and wide and b) that one virally popular pic would see him in clover for life. That's not the way copyright and licencing works. However, as other TDers have written, even now he could sell prints on t-shirts or mugs, etc., and make money off them. The trouble with the pics being in the public domain, though, is that anyone else can, too. Being the man who owned the camera ought to count for something among buyers, though.

    I don't think he's greedy, just a man who can't see past a cherished principle.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  97. identicon
    Wendy Cockcroft, 7 Aug 2017 @ 1:04pm

    Re: Re: Re: Daily Mail

    John, please can you cite the piece of legislation that proves you are correct instead of merely insulting those of us who disagree with you? It makes it hard to take you seriously.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  98. icon
    Steerpike (profile), 7 Aug 2017 @ 1:14pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Daily Mail

    You can start with 17 U.S. Code. I don't think there is an explicit definition of "author" there, but the use of the term throughout the code indicates that it is contemplated to be a human being. Also, back in 2014, the Copyright Office, who is tasked with interpreting the code and issuing rules, advised that works created by animals were not subject to copyright. The court is following along that same line of reasoning. If we want to extend copyright protection to works created by animals, Congress would have to amend the copyright act to provide for it.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  99. icon
    aerinai (profile), 7 Aug 2017 @ 1:15pm

    'John' -- Care to Share?

    John,

    Masnick has given his viewpoint on multiple occasions and has used logic, reason, and all here are pretty familiar with his stance.

    Do you care to share what you believe to the be actual rules on the matter of copyright? I see you lashing out at others, but not contributing to the conversation at hand. It seems to me that you believe Slater has a valid copyright; and with this being a law blog and all, do you care to counterpoint with reasoned logic what your interpretation of the law is? Citations help when making a case, so please include any that are applicable.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  100. identicon
    kallethen, 7 Aug 2017 @ 1:37pm

    Re: 'John' -- Care to Share?

    Honestly, it'd be better if everybody would realize he's just a troll and stop responding to him.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  101. icon
    Alphonse Tomato (profile), 7 Aug 2017 @ 2:03pm

    Re: Re: Re: Daily Mail

    Nah, I don't think that it's Slater. It's somebody who's making Slater more of a fool than he actually is (I think Slater is just somebody who thought he'd hit the lottery and got greedy). The John used the word "sheeple", which I would hope hasn't infected British English yet. I'm not sure why an American rightwinger (that's the group fond of that word) would be so adamantly on Slater's side, though. Maybe the John is one of the presently unemployed Prenda Law folks?

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  102. identicon
    Baron von Robber, 7 Aug 2017 @ 2:07pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: could have avoided it all

    Cut John/Johm a break. He's got thousands of monkey submissions to review before he "OK"s one thru to be published here in the comments section.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  103. identicon
    Avideogameplayer, 7 Aug 2017 @ 2:24pm

    Well, I'll be a monkey's uncle...

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  104. icon
    JMT (profile), 7 Aug 2017 @ 2:37pm

    Re: Re: 'John' -- Care to Share?

    Never in the years I've been here have I seen Techdirt commenters get trolled so badly. It's been damn embarrassing to read so many of the responses to this clown.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  105. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 7 Aug 2017 @ 2:43pm

    Re: Re: Re: could have avoided it all

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  106. icon
    Stephen T. Stone (profile), 7 Aug 2017 @ 2:44pm

    Re: Re:

    How do you define “failed copyright expert”? What proof do you have of his failure?

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  107. icon
    K`Tetch (profile), 7 Aug 2017 @ 2:46pm

    Re: Re: Re: could have avoided it all

    Easy. go look it up in archive.org (and I have now saved copies)

    https://web.archive.org/web/20110121151100/http://www.djsphotography.co.uk:80/Tropical%20Fore sts/Sulawesi%20Macaques.htm

    thats Jan 2011

    July 7th it's gone https://web.archive.org/web/20110707120244/http://www.djsphotography.co.uk:80/Tropical%20Forests/Sul awesi%20Macaques.htm
    Still down (or removed) August 7th


    It's not until September 2011 that the new story is there
    https://web.archive.org/web/20110903035338/http://www.djsphotography.co.uk:80/Tropical%20Forest s/Sulawesi%20Macaques.htm



    BTW, Since you hate the Daily Mail, hows about the Telegraph, which carried the exact same story verbatum
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/8615859/Monkey-steals-camera-to-snap -himself.html

    If he's claiming they're lying about what he said, maybe he can sue them for libel and make his money back.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  108. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 7 Aug 2017 @ 2:46pm

    Re: Re: Re:

    Well, monkeys DO have a habit of flinging feces at those they perceive as an irratant, which would go pretty far in John's/Johm's trolling attempts. He's throwing out a lot of shit, but has only succeeded in showing himself to be bananas.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  109. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 7 Aug 2017 @ 2:49pm

    Re: Re: Re:

    Trollogic: Mike doesn't suck the 'AA's cocks, so therefore he MUST be wrong.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  110. icon
    wshuff (profile), 7 Aug 2017 @ 2:55pm

    Re: Re: Re: Daily Mail

    Sorry for the delay in responding, I'm waiting for the Internet to tell me what to say. I'm going to head back to the flock now while I wait. Perhaps I'll have something by the time you crawl out from under your bridge tomorrow.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  111. identicon
    Will, 7 Aug 2017 @ 3:42pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    Genuine question: why are you using "girl" as an insult? What, precisely, is wrong about being a girl?

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  112. icon
    wshuff (profile), 7 Aug 2017 @ 3:43pm

    Re: Re: Re: Daily Mail

    Hey John, better get to work and let Judge Orrick and the U.S. Copyright Office know that they don't know anything about copyright and the public domain. Maybe they haven't looked at Slater's website.

    http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/01/07/462245189/federal-judge-says-monkey-cant-own-copyr ight-to-his-selfie

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  113. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 7 Aug 2017 @ 3:58pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Moving On

    Yup - anything you disagree with is fake.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  114. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 7 Aug 2017 @ 4:00pm

    Re: Re: Moving On

    Classic projection

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  115. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 7 Aug 2017 @ 4:02pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    He seems to be saying that he thinks lowly of females, that probably means he is a bigot.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  116. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 7 Aug 2017 @ 4:05pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Daily Mail

    Sure act like it

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  117. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 7 Aug 2017 @ 4:09pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Daily Mail

    Is it his mother that he hates?

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  118. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 7 Aug 2017 @ 4:10pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Daily Mail

    Toast with bullshit spread upon it - yeah.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  119. icon
    Toom1275 (profile), 7 Aug 2017 @ 4:15pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Daily Mail

    He sniffs paint.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  120. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 7 Aug 2017 @ 4:16pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re:

    Most sane people would simply not visit a site they do not like as there are so many, but John is no slacker... oh no. He goes to each and every site that he does not like and posts comments in a valiant attempt to educate all us idiots and morons - oh and girls too. The next great superhero JOHM in spandex and cape risking his life and limb for our safety - what a guy!

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  121. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 7 Aug 2017 @ 4:19pm

    Re: I guess it's too late now...

    Did anyone else know he did not take the photo? Was he the only one there at the time?
    If so, why not just say he did and all this silliness would have been avoided.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  122. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 7 Aug 2017 @ 4:20pm

    Re: It's been nice to meet Techshit acolites

    Wait JohM!

    No!!!

    JohM, come back JohM!

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  123. icon
    William Braunfeld (profile), 7 Aug 2017 @ 4:33pm

    Everyone...

    ...please, don't feed the trolls.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  124. icon
    That One Guy (profile), 7 Aug 2017 @ 4:36pm

    Live by the sword, die by the sword

    and the defendant is broke, in part because of this case (though some people -- including the photographer -- appear to be partially blaming us).

    If the fact that he didn't own a single photo was enough to completely tank his finances... then he was doomed from the get-go from banking his entire career on one photo. Even assuming he did have full rights over that single photo the odds of him being able to base a successful career on it were zero to none. It was an interesting photo thanks to the circumstances of it's creation, but it certainly wasn't 'able to live comfortably for the rest of your life' or even 'send your child to university' levels of interesting/valuable.

    I would feel sorry for him having to pay out the nose in legal fees, but as Ninja pointed out he went legal first, so that bit strikes me as a 'hoist by your own petard', or perhaps 'turnabout is fair play'.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  125. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 7 Aug 2017 @ 8:01pm

    JMT got it right

    "Never in the years I've been here have I seen Techdirt commenters get trolled so badly. It's been damn embarrassing to read so many of the responses to this clown."

    Johm was actually one of the most blatant I've ever seen here. Maybe that brings out the worst in us all...

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  126. icon
    Leigh Beadon (profile), 7 Aug 2017 @ 8:23pm

    Re: Re: I guess it's too late now...

    Think about it: would anyone have cared about the photo if he said he took it? I mean sure, it's a nice shot, but the only thing that truly *stands out* about it is the fact that it's the "monkey selfie". I can hardly imagine the world being swept by viral headlines about "Nature Photographer Takes Kinda Cool Photo Of Monkey"

    He may want to have it both ways (photo made famous for being a monkey selfie, but belongs to him) but he can't.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  127. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 7 Aug 2017 @ 9:47pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Moving On

    Yeah, using sheeple as a derogative totally convinces anyone that you're right, genius!

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  128. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 7 Aug 2017 @ 9:48pm

    Re: Re: Moving On

    Jealous much?

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  129. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 7 Aug 2017 @ 9:59pm

    Re: Re: Re: could have avoided it all

    Isn't your daughter already missing you?

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  130. icon
    techflaws (profile), 7 Aug 2017 @ 10:02pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re:

    You're not trolling the trolls, you're flinging poo. No wonder you're so impressed with a peer of yours taking a selfie.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  131. icon
    TechDescartes (profile), 7 Aug 2017 @ 10:22pm

    Re: Re: Re: I guess it's too late now...

    There is one more happenstance that should be pointed out: the rise of the word "selfie." It was the OED's word of the year in 2013:

    Today Oxford Dictionaries announces selfie as their international Word of the Year 2013. The Oxford Dictionaries Word of the Year is a word or expression that has attracted a great deal of interest during the year to date. Language research conducted by Oxford Dictionaries editors reveals that the frequency of the word selfie in the English language has increased by 17,000% since this time last year...

    One has to wonder whether the interest in this photo even would be the same if it hit the Internet today:

    A monkey selfie? You mean, like, just a selfie? Was it snowboarding off the roof of a house? No? Meh.

    This photo rode the "selfie" wave. That wave has passed.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  132. icon
    David (profile), 8 Aug 2017 @ 12:29am

    Re: Re: Re: Moving On

    Who uses 'shite' anyway?

    Do London Johns use that phrase? Certainly not in the US.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  133. icon
    PaulT (profile), 8 Aug 2017 @ 2:27am

    You can always tell when Techdirt have a factually unimpeachable stance on an issue - the comments are filled with some kind of deranged performance art. We don't even get the usual contrarian trolls and attempts at misdirection. We just get ranting from someone who is pretending to have completely lost his mind (or, at least, we hope it's pretend).

    "Go look at the link in our first story. You want to know where we first got the photograph? The Daily Mail. Yet now the Daily Mail is blaming us for making the photo available? Are you fucking kidding me?"

    The Fail have never let things like consistency, honesty and facts stop them from pursuing what they think will sell. You just happened to originally stumble across a story that they didn't care enough about at the time to lie about. Perhaps, being honest on those kind of fluff stories (as this was to them at the time) is how they stop the husks of their souls from completely dying over their daily work of fabrication. Now that they have agendas and narratives they want to push, they will reject any such attempts at actual journalism.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  134. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 8 Aug 2017 @ 2:28am

    Re: Re: Re: Daily Mail

    You sound like an absolutely lovely person.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  135. This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it
    icon
    MyNameHere (profile), 8 Aug 2017 @ 3:14am

    Re:

    Yup, and there you are, commenting. Self diagnosis?

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  136. icon
    PaulT (profile), 8 Aug 2017 @ 3:17am

    Re: Re:

    No, I was referring to "John", but there's always room for other people to show themselves up. You, at least, try to act like a sane person while you distort the truth.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  137. icon
    Richard (profile), 8 Aug 2017 @ 5:34am

    Re: Moving On

    Most hurtfully, he's stopped taking pictures. '

    Slater - or the monkey?

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  138. icon
    Richard (profile), 8 Aug 2017 @ 5:43am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Daily Mail

    More to the point the photo is only of interest if the monkey took it. If he took it it has no special value.

    SO Slater loses either way. If he took the picture then he has the copyright - but the picture is just another picture of a monkey.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  139. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 8 Aug 2017 @ 6:10am

    Re: Re: Re: I guess it's too late now...

    Good point, and is seems he has blown his 15 seconds of fame.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  140. icon
    DannyB (profile), 8 Aug 2017 @ 6:24am

    Poor Naruto

    Now poor Naruto, with the litigation behind him, can move on to other ambitions. Such as running for US President. He can't do worse than we have now. And I get the impression there may be a job opening soon.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  141. identicon
    Wendy Cockcroft, 8 Aug 2017 @ 6:38am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Daily Mail

    I think it's our friend Fake!Shiva Hamilton, a drama troll trying to start a proxy flame war. The misogyny was the giveaway. The only way to win is not to play.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  142. icon
    That One Guy (profile), 8 Aug 2017 @ 7:46am

    Reputations: Hard to build up, trivial to destroy

    That really is the punchline to the whole thing, the fact that his short-sighted greed completely destroyed any value the picture might have had for him.

    If he 'won' and somehow attained the rights to the photo by claiming to have set the shot up then it's useless, as it's just another picture of a monkey, of which I imagine there's plenty.

    He could have accepted that the very thing that kept him from owning it, the fact that a monkey took it, made for an interesting story and gone from there, adding that little tidbit to his resume and using it to get his name more widely known, but thanks to his greed the only thing he's likely to be remembered for is being the person who tried to shake people down over a photo he didn't own, only to be dragged into a train-wreck of a PR-stunt/lawsuit.

    As it stands with the case likely finally coming to a close the monkey is the only one who comes out of the whole debacle not looking foolish/greedy/absurd, and that is all sorts of ridiculous(even if it does make for a good source of schadenfreude).

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  143. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 8 Aug 2017 @ 8:32am

    Re: Re:

    It's hilarious and comforting to know you will consistently come to the defense of the nutjobs and consider your input, like the above, to be Pulitzer-worthy material (so you can also whine about it when your diminutive, sad attempt at contribution is reported).

    Physician heal thyself!

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  144. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 8 Aug 2017 @ 9:44am

    "Copying is all that is, or ever was, or ever will be", unlike copyright.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  145. identicon
    Thad, 8 Aug 2017 @ 9:50am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    I have it on good authority that they have cooties.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  146. identicon
    Thad, 8 Aug 2017 @ 9:59am

    Re: Re: Re:

    Wait, I can't see the comment you're replying to. Who's a failed copyright expert?

    ...am I a failed copyright expert?

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  147. icon
    Toom1275 (profile), 8 Aug 2017 @ 12:41pm

    Re: Reputations: Hard to build up, trivial to destroy

    "the monkey is the only one who comes out of the whole debacle not looking foolish/greedy/absurd"

    Of the involved parties, the monkey was throwing the least amount of feces around.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  148. icon
    Jeremy Lyman (profile), 9 Aug 2017 @ 4:57am

    Re: Moving On

    I think it's also worth nothing that this picture was popular to begin with BECAUSE it was a monkey, not Slater, that created it. If he'd managed to make the same image with his own hands it wouldn't have achieved the same notoriety. Sure it was a good picture and he could have made some money, but it wouldn't have been a lottery ticket.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  149. icon
    Jeremy Lyman (profile), 9 Aug 2017 @ 5:02am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Moving On

    I'm always conflicted about promotions like that. On the one hand, sure it's doing some good in a world that needs more good. On the other hand, I can just donate some money myself and you could be charging 10% less. Also then I'd get the tax write-off, not you.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  150. icon
    Jeremy Lyman (profile), 9 Aug 2017 @ 5:14am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Daily Mail

    Yup, damned if he did, damned if he didn't.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  151. identicon
    Cowardly Lion, 10 Aug 2017 @ 2:41am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Daily Mail

    "Are some cult Techshites here so naive to not know English humor"

    Well clearly you don't. In the land of fish & chips, orderly queues, and Monty Python, it's spelt "humour".

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  152. identicon
    Cowardly Lion, 10 Aug 2017 @ 2:56am

    Haha! Have a +1 funny for reminding me of this...

    Mr. Wiggin: ...I see. Well, of course, this is just the sort of blinkered philistine pig ignorance I've come to expect from you non-creative garbage. You sit there on your loathsome spotty behinds squeezing blackheads, not caring a tinker's cuss for the struggling artist. You excrement, you whining hypocritical toadies with your colour TV sets and your Tony Jacklin golf clubs and your bleeding masonic secret handshakes. You wouldn't let me join, would you, you blackballing bastards. Well I wouldn't become a Freemason if you went down on your lousy stinking purulent knees and begged me.

    http://www.mit.edu/afs.new/sipb/user/ayshames/Python/ARCHITEC.PYTHON

    https://www.youtube.com/watch ?v=RicaXxiU1WM

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  153. icon
    PaulT (profile), 10 Aug 2017 @ 3:18am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Daily Mail

    We also, sadly, know that the fun and inaccurate Daily Fail is taken seriously by too large a number of the population. It's no laughing matter when you know that people are literally voting as a direct result of those lies.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]


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