NBC Delayed Story About Trump's Access Hollywood Recording Over Fear That He Might Sue

from the chilling-effects dept

So just this past Thursday, we wrote about Trump's habit of threatening to sue the press over any coverage he considers negative. In the past, we've also covered his stated plans to open up libel laws. The comments on that post got pretty ridiculous after people who can't possibly be regular Techdirt readers complained that I was clearly just stirring up shit because I'm a Hillary Clinton supporter. This despite the fact that pretty much everything we've ever written about her has been critical too -- including her own ridiculous comments mocking free speech and praising censorship. It also ignores that just a few days earlier I had also sided with the Trump campaign when it received a bogus, censorious, cease & desist letter from the city of Phoenix. We're staying pretty consistent here: we don't support censorship, no matter whose team you're on. But, sure, I know. It's crunch time and people are really concerned about supporting their team, rather than actually discussing issues.

But this is an important issue. Threatening a free press with bogus defamation lawsuits and SLAPP (strategic lawsuits against public participation) claims are a really big problem. Case in point: on Friday, as I'm sure you're already aware, the Washington Post published a video of Donald Trump happily discussing sexually assaulting women, and how it's okay because he's a celebrity. As you also know, this became the story of Friday and the weekend, as it appeared to push a bunch of people who had previously supported Trump over the edge to pull their support (why this story rather than earlier ones, I don't fully understand, but...).

Either way, the story led to a few different varieties of followup stories about how the Washington Post got the story. And all of them note that Access Hollywood found the tape itself last Monday, and realized it was newsworthy. They then took it to their corporate parent, NBC, and some work was done on getting the story out -- but it kept getting pushed back. This led many to ask why it could possibly take so long for NBC to report on this. They knew the tape was authentic, so they didn't need to confirm that.

On Saturday, though, we finally got an answer: NBC held up the story because it was afraid of getting sued.
Although NBC and “Access” both recognized the newsworthiness of the tape and intended to air it, it first had to undergo a review by the company’s lawyers, the executive said. The executive was unaware of any specific legal issue raised by airing an 11-year-old recording of a presidential candidate who was apparently aware at the time that he was being recorded by a TV program.

However, the network was concerned that Trump could take legal action; the Republican nominee threatened to sue NBC last year after the network’s entertainment division dropped plans to air the Miss USA beauty pageant in the wake of Trump’s inflammatory remarks about Mexican immigrants. Trump backed off those threats when NBC sold its share of the pageant’s rights to him in September 2015.
That, right there, is a perfect example of chilling effects in action. Trump has threatened many, many in the press with bogus defamation claims, and sometimes has followed through. He's also happily admitted that he's filed bogus defamation lawsuits just to be a nuisance and cost reporters and publications he doesn't like money. Here's Trump on an earlier lawsuit that was clearly bogus from the start and thrown out as such:
"I spent a couple of bucks on legal fees, and they spent a whole lot more. I did it to make his life miserable, which I'm happy about."
This is why it's so important to call out threats against a free press and free expression. Bogus lawsuits that scare even giant corporate conglomerates away from reporting on something that is clearly news, is a serious problem. I don't care which candidate you support or which candidate you hate. You should stand up against abusive litigation designed to stifle a free press. And you should support the effort in Congress to pass a federal anti-SLAPP law that would make it much more difficult for abusive defamation lawsuits to make reporters' lives miserable.

Filed Under: donald trump, first amendment, free speech, journalism, reporting, threats
Companies: nbc


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  • identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 11 Oct 2016 @ 6:50am

    This all sounds familiar...

    The Washington Post deserves what it gets. They crossed the line when it comes to respectable journalism. It says a lot when other media organizations wouldn't run with those videos that The Washington Post had posted online.

    I have absolutely no sympathy for GawThe Washington Postker and this should serve as a reminder to scandalous media organizations: take a stand for responsible, moral and ethical journalism or face the consequences.

    RIP Gawker, may we never see your face again.

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • identicon
      I.T. Guy, 11 Oct 2016 @ 7:08am

      Re: This all sounds familiar...

      Who knew... Donald Trump reads TechDirt.

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • identicon
      Shiny Paladin, 11 Oct 2016 @ 7:19am

      Re: This all sounds familiar...

      Did the Washington Post cross the line? No worse than other Media groups. The fact that they reported credible and accurate news, actually enforces they follow respectable journalism.

      Even if it seemed a little timely and tabloidish.

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

      • icon
        Go5 (profile), 11 Oct 2016 @ 11:41pm

        Re: Re: This all sounds familiar...

        Donald did make his fame in tabloid histrionics and "reality" TV (plus a dash of bankrupt casino), so tabloidish coverage seems somehow appropriate.

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    • identicon
      Anonymous Coward, 11 Oct 2016 @ 7:22am

      Re: This all sounds familiar...

      Maybe it would be easier to get rid of Gawker for good if we repealed the 1st amendment.

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • identicon
      Anonymous Coward, 11 Oct 2016 @ 7:24am

      Re: This all sounds familiar...

      So you are in favor of state run media organizations that only tell approved stories? No free press? No truth without prior approval?

      What about your precious Reddit and 4chan (assuming you came from there)? You know those would fall far easier than any of the big press papers to someone like Trump.

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • identicon
      Anonymous Howard II, 11 Oct 2016 @ 7:36am

      Re: This all sounds familiar...

      This post is satire, right?

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • identicon
      Thad, 11 Oct 2016 @ 9:44am

      Re: This all sounds familiar...

      How dare the Washington Post cross the line by accurately reporting things that were said by a public figure and are in the public interest.

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • identicon
      Anonymous Coward, 11 Oct 2016 @ 11:20am

      Re: This all sounds familiar...

      WaPo and the Trump campaign will test the boundaries of private and public interests over the next few years following this election. I can only hope that a president is affirmed through all the legal battles to come!

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

      • identicon
        Baron von Robber, 11 Oct 2016 @ 11:36am

        Re: Re: This all sounds familiar...

        "Never pick a fight with people who buy ink by the barrel."
        Mark Twain

        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

        • identicon
          Anonymous Coward, 11 Oct 2016 @ 11:58am

          Re: Re: Re: This all sounds familiar...

          Even better: "never pick a fight with people who feel lies are a viable solution"

          reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

        • icon
          Anonymous Anonymous Coward (profile), 11 Oct 2016 @ 4:35pm

          Re: Re: Re: This all sounds familiar...

          Sam Clemens never dreamed that the ink would be bought by the government, which is to say political operatives working for the government (full time while, part time supporting one ideology or another) who would then do many inconsiderate and possibly illegal things if the ink didn't get used right.

          Sure, shady things happened in Twains time, but some of them were more covert than now, and some of them were overt. Over time the ideologies with the money change.

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          • identicon
            Thad, 11 Oct 2016 @ 5:32pm

            Re: Re: Re: Re: This all sounds familiar...

            Huh? Are you suggesting that state-sponsored propaganda is a new concept that just popped up in the twentieth century?

            reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

            • icon
              Anonymous Anonymous Coward (profile), 11 Oct 2016 @ 5:42pm

              Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: This all sounds familiar...

              No, but it's abuse has increased, become more apparent, and with governmental aid become sanctioned (PAC money for instance).

              reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

              • identicon
                Thad, 11 Oct 2016 @ 5:45pm

                Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: This all sounds familiar...

                But PAC money is private money being spent on political campaigns.

                I agree that's not something Twain could have foreseen happening on this scale. But it's not the same thing as "the government buying ink" at all; it's private industry buying ink to influence the government, not the other way around.

                reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

                • icon
                  Anonymous Anonymous Coward (profile), 11 Oct 2016 @ 7:40pm

                  Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: This all sounds familiar...

                  So media companies withholding or adjusting stories because they might lose access to government bigwigs isn't really a thing? I am fairly certain there are other ways government influence is swayed over media companies, but that one comes direct to mind.

                  Private industry may withhold advertising from a media company for the purpose of influence, but there are often companies with the opposing ideology who will take up the slack.

                  When government pushes its weight around, it is from the ideology currently in office, so the timing of any inappropriate influence needs to be considered.

                  Oh, and the PAC money is money allowed by the government, under the ruse that money is speech. I have a hard time thinking that if you have more money than I then you have the right to more speech than I. I don't think you do, but PAC's do think that way.

                  reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

                  • icon
                    Wendy Cockcroft (profile), 12 Oct 2016 @ 2:43am

                    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: This all sounds familiar...

                    Since private enterprise currently runs the government you may find it's a case of six of one and half a dozen of the other.

                    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

                  • identicon
                    Thad, 12 Oct 2016 @ 4:33pm

                    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: This all sounds familiar...

                    So media companies withholding or adjusting stories because they might lose access to government bigwigs isn't really a thing?

                    I never said that. Did you catch what I said downthread about sentences that begin with the word "so" and end with a question mark?

                    I certainly agree with what you're saying. (Indeed, I remember a Daily Show interview with Woodward and Bernstein where Bernstein spent a great deal talking about this problem, and I remember thinking "He's talking about the guy sitting next to him.") But that's not the same thing as governments buying ink, or as PAC funding. They're related issues, and you're right to point them out, but it wasn't at all clear that you were talking about journalists burying stories to keep access when you brought up PACs.

                    Oh, and the PAC money is money allowed by the government, under the ruse that money is speech. I have a hard time thinking that if you have more money than I then you have the right to more speech than I. I don't think you do, but PAC's do think that way.

                    Indeed, the two most troubling elements of the Citizens United decision are the conclusion that (1) corporations are people and (2) money is speech.

                    All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others.

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    • icon
      sorrykb (profile), 11 Oct 2016 @ 12:34pm

      Re: This all sounds familiar...

      The Washington Post deserves what it gets.

      The Washington Post and David Fahrenthold are going to get a friggin Pulitzer Prize for their coverage of this campaign. And it will be well-earned.

      Wait.... Does that mean you're actually right about something? Whoa.

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 11 Oct 2016 @ 7:19am

    This isn't the end of the story

    There are more tapes. Multiple people who were there says that what's on them is worse. The person who has them is threatening to sue anyone who leaks them, which confirms that.

    I hope someone DOES leak them. We, the American people, have a right to see and hear what's on them. Anyone who stands in the way of that is an enemy of the people.

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • identicon
      Anonymous Coward, 11 Oct 2016 @ 7:21am

      Re: This isn't the end of the story

      Oh, you mean Mark Burnett who OWNS the tapes from The Apprentice.

      He'd have every right to sue someone stealing his property and releasing it.

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

      • identicon
        Thad, 11 Oct 2016 @ 9:45am

        Re: Re: This isn't the end of the story

        But he's said he won't. Which sounds a lot like "Well, I can't leak them, so I'm just gonna turn my head over this way now."

        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

      • identicon
        Anonymous Coward, 11 Oct 2016 @ 9:51am

        Re: Re: This isn't the end of the story

        -10. Despite being a TD reader, you haven't learned the difference between copyright infringement and theft.

        Now do be quiet, please. The grown-ups are talking.

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      • identicon
        Anonymous Coward, 11 Oct 2016 @ 11:54am

        Re: Re: This isn't the end of the story

        The public's interest in racist fuckwittery Trumps false property laws.

        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

        • identicon
          Thad, 11 Oct 2016 @ 12:01pm

          Re: Re: Re: This isn't the end of the story

          I don't think he could successfully sue the press if they released the tapes, but if somebody on his staff gave them to the press, he might be able to successfully sue that person.

          But it's a moot point, because, as I noted above, he's explicitly said that if the tapes "somehow" get out, he's not going to sue over it.

          reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

          • icon
            Roger Strong (profile), 11 Oct 2016 @ 12:27pm

            Re: Re: Re: Re: This isn't the end of the story

            A billionaire funding someone else to sue over it isn't an option?

            reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

            • identicon
              Thad, 11 Oct 2016 @ 12:56pm

              Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: This isn't the end of the story

              When a guy puts out a press release saying that he's not going to release video because it would violate his contract, but doesn't deny that the video exists, says he wouldn't retaliate against anyone else who just happened to release it, and also mentions offhandedly that he's a Democrat, what does that tell you?

              It's got nothing to do with whether or not suing is an option. Burnett won't sue anybody who leaks the video because he wants the video to be leaked.

              reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

      • identicon
        Anonymous Coward, 11 Oct 2016 @ 1:56pm

        Re: Re: This isn't the end of the story

        Is this tape that didn't make the final edit? Because if it isn't, then it should be trivial for Reddit to go through the transcripts (which are posted online) and post the related video clips from available published footage.

        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • identicon
      Anonymous Coward, 11 Oct 2016 @ 8:47am

      Re: This isn't the end of the story

      I have not problem with those tapes being released. I just wish that the media would release the Hillary Clinton tapes as well as cover the Wikileaks documents on her. There are a boat load of documents on Wikileaks now that the lamestream media are ignoring. I am all for reporting if they would report on both sides. There are documents where Hillary refers to Muslims in a most derogatory way but I bet you won't see that on the 6 o'clock news.

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

      • identicon
        Anonymous Coward, 11 Oct 2016 @ 8:48am

        Re: Re: This isn't the end of the story

        What I am saying is we have the media trying to pick our next President and I am not ok with that. Get the facts out there and let the people decide. Until they do this, I will ignore the mainstream data sources.

        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

        • identicon
          Thad, 11 Oct 2016 @ 9:47am

          Re: Re: Re: This isn't the end of the story

          But that's exactly what they did.

          They got the facts out there. The people are deciding.

          The Wikileaks story has been covered. It's being covered. It's true that it's getting less coverage than Trump bragging about sexually assaulting women. But maybe there's a reason for that that's not "the news media are in the tank for Hillary."

          reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

        • identicon
          Anonymous Coward, 11 Oct 2016 @ 2:03pm

          Re: Re: Re: This isn't the end of the story

          I like what the USA Today did... they stated that they are unwilling to endorse Hillary Clinton. They also stated that they recommend everyone avoid voting for Trump, and vote for ANYONE else for President, and to vote appropriately for other representatives.

          Think of it like this: you are presented with 5 buttons, red orange, yellow, green, blue.

          Pressing the red button will kill you.
          Pressing the blue button is likely to cause harmful side effects, drain your bank account, but keep you fed and healthy.
          Pressing the other buttons will cause unknown effects, but likely won't do much.

          The media is telling people not to press the red button. Red button supporters are saying that the media isn't bringing enough attention to the fact that the blue button has harmful side effects, and may eventually kill you.

          But the media did cover that; they're just wanting everyone to be very clear that the red button will kill you, so people don't make a very grave mistake.

          Ignoring the media in this situation doesn't seem like the wise thing to do.

          reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

          • identicon
            Anonymous Coward, 11 Oct 2016 @ 2:40pm

            Re: Re: Re: Re: This isn't the end of the story

            "Pressing the red button will kill you."

            Yes, but that isn't the way the nation's founders designed the Constitutional system. They designed the system with multiple firebreaks and substantial redundancy.

            Over the years, various Presidents have dismantled the redundancy (equivalent to removing ECC from all computer storage), so that the President can now order the end of civilization on the planet -- all by herself.

            A disaster drill is long overdue to make sure that all that redundancy and those backup plans still work.

            Trump is the perfect disaster drill.

            reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

      • identicon
        Anonymous Coward, 11 Oct 2016 @ 9:19am

        Re: Re: This isn't the end of the story

        "I bet you won't see that on the 6 o'clock news."

        Why would they post something that is not independently verified? Or would you prefer the media post every facebook rumour that is out there as soon as they read it?
        Some of the wikileaks stuff has been rumoured to been fake. So good chances are they are taking it seriously and doing good journalistic practice by seeing multiple independent sources.

        Also why does "both sides" matter? Specifically why does news on one candidate demand the media look or news on the other? If one candidate has 100 negative things about them but another only has 25, is the media then not allowed to discuss 75 of the negative things about the first candidate?

        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

        • identicon
          Anonymous Coward, 11 Oct 2016 @ 10:10am

          Re: Re: Re: This isn't the end of the story

          If one candidate has 100 negative things about them but another only has 25, is the media then not allowed to discuss 75 of the negative things about the first candidate?

          That would be awesome except that isn't what is happening. Hillary has a million negative things against her that aren't being covered. Just look at the debates, the moderators hounded Trump and left Hillary alone. It is like that every single debate. If they actually covered both we would have the 4th estate back. As it is, they have become mouthpieces for the political parties.

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          • icon
            sorrykb (profile), 11 Oct 2016 @ 10:27am

            Re: Re: Re: Re: This isn't the end of the story

            Please, tell us how exactly the moderators "hounded Trump and left Hillary alone," Cite examples. Show your work.

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              identicon
              Anonymous Coward, 11 Oct 2016 @ 10:39am

              Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: This isn't the end of the story

              I really feel bad for the sheeple. If you only get your news from the left, you will get the same story no matter the source. Heaven forbid you actually watch Fox or even better, seek out blogs and videos on your own. In the first debate, the moderator re-queried Trump 41 times and Hillary 7. It is on the video, count for yourself if you don't trust others.

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              • identicon
                Baron, 11 Oct 2016 @ 11:03am

                Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: This isn't the end of the story

                reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

              • identicon
                Baron von Robber, 11 Oct 2016 @ 11:04am

                Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: This isn't the end of the story

                "F-" Didn't show your work.

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                • identicon
                  Anonymous Coward, 11 Oct 2016 @ 11:10am

                  Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: This isn't the end of the story

                  Nope, not going to do the work for you, you wouldn't trust me if I did. The full debate can be found and you can count for yourself. You can also watch tons and tons of videos on YouTube that show the Dems in a less than favorable light. And I am not talking about talk show type videos, I am talking actual news footage and interviews of them. So F- for being lazy and unwilling to even to a few basic searches on YouTube to satisfy your curiosity. But please, go back to sleep if you like.

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                  • identicon
                    Baron von Robber, 11 Oct 2016 @ 11:37am

                    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: This isn't the end of the story

                    I will be. Should be interesting.

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                  • identicon
                    Thad, 11 Oct 2016 @ 12:04pm

                    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: This isn't the end of the story

                    Nope, not going to do the work for you

                    Nice try. You're the one making the claim; you're the one who needs to back it up.

                    Somebody quoted something the other day to the effect of "That which is claimed without evidence can be dismissed without evidence." I believe they referred to it as Hitchens's Law. I have my disagreements with the late Mr. Hitchens, but in this case he's right.

                    Put up or shut up.

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                    • identicon
                      Anonymous Coward, 11 Oct 2016 @ 2:19pm

                      Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: This isn't the end of the story

                      Once again, with feeling, you can easily search on YouTube for all kinds of stuff on Hillary. These are actual videos of her in interviews and press events. Her words. You can also look at Wikileaks for the latest documents where she was plotting against Bernie. She actually rigged the Democratic primary which should have you livid. She referred to Muslims as sand....., you fill in the blanks. So the evidence is right in front of you, you just won't accept it.

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                      • icon
                        sorrykb (profile), 11 Oct 2016 @ 2:29pm

                        Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: This isn't the end of the story

                        The DNC referred Hillary over Bernie. No shit. But the primaries weren't "rigged" and there was no election fraud.

                        As for the rest..
                        Provide evidence for your extraordinary claims. Certainly if it's as easy as you say you can find it very quickly and come back here with a link. Or you could just keep blathering on and proving only that you're a self-deluded preening idiot with an exaggerated sense of your own erudition. Your choice.

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                      • identicon
                        Thad, 11 Oct 2016 @ 2:36pm

                        Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: This isn't the end of the story

                        And once again, with feeling, there is no evidence in front of me, there's just you waving your arms and telling me it's my job to make your dumb-ass argument for you.

                        I was born at night, but not last night, dingus.

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                      • icon
                        Wendy Cockcroft (profile), 12 Oct 2016 @ 2:46am

                        Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: This isn't the end of the story

                        The burden is on you to prove your case; it's not our job to do it for you.

                        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

              • identicon
                Anonymous Coward, 11 Oct 2016 @ 11:31am

                Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: This isn't the end of the story

                "Heaven forbid you actually watch Fox or even better, seek out blogs and videos on your own."

                You mean like at infowars?
                lol
                Thanks but no thanks

                reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

              • identicon
                Anonymous Coward, 11 Oct 2016 @ 12:03pm

                Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: This isn't the end of the story

                With the entire debate being publicly available, what additional "news" is there to gather?

                If it's such a rudimentary issue that you feel isn't being covered by the left (e.g. the ability to fucking count), then it should be equally simple for you to point out.

                But no, you just say "do your own work" - when in fact, you want us to do YOUR work.

                It's YOUR assertion.
                Back it up, or just fuck off.

                reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

              • identicon
                David, 11 Oct 2016 @ 12:49pm

                Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: This isn't the end of the story

                In the first debate, the moderator re-queried Trump 41 times and Hillary 7. It is on the video, count for yourself if you don't trust others.

                Actually I consider that observation comparatively believable without double-checking. From reading other interviews, I'm not surprised the moderator tried 6 times as often in order to manage getting some intelligible response out of Trump than of Clinton. And I suspect he still was less successful overall.

                reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

              • identicon
                Anonymous Coward, 11 Oct 2016 @ 1:03pm

                Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: This isn't the end of the story

                Sheeple, It's not just what's for dinner.

                reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

              • identicon
                Anonymous Coward, 11 Oct 2016 @ 1:05pm

                Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: This isn't the end of the story

                Why is it that conservatives always seem to be fascinated with sheep?

                reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

                • icon
                  Wendy Cockcroft (profile), 12 Oct 2016 @ 2:48am

                  Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: This isn't the end of the story

                  I wish "conservatives" and "right-wing nutbuckets" didn't mean the same thing.

                  I'm one of the sensible conservatives. We do exist, you know, but end up being either shouted down by the nutbuckets or lumped in with "the left."

                  What left? There's no real left in America.

                  reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

                  • identicon
                    Thad, 12 Oct 2016 @ 4:39pm

                    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: This isn't the end of the story

                    I read a pretty fantastic piece by Matt Taibbi, probably after the 2008 election, to the effect that seeing the Republican Party tear itself apart is not a good thing, and that we need real conservatives -- because government restraint, fiscal discipline, and personal responsibility are positive values, and because checks and balances are important to the health of the government.

                    But of course the back half of Taibbi's argument was that what the current Republican Party is really for is the Republican Party, and it's more interested in scoring political points than making the government work. If Obama's for something, the Republicans are against it, even if it's something they used to be for -- see the Merrick Garland nomination, for example.

                    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

              • identicon
                Anonymous Coward, 11 Oct 2016 @ 1:38pm

                Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: This isn't the end of the story

                > In the first debate, the moderator re-queried Trump 41 times and Hillary 7.

                Is that because of bias or because Trump will just blurt out anything that comes to mind and Hillary actually thinks before speaking?

                Personally I didn't have the stomach to watch the debates and think both candidates are unqualified for the Presidency.

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              • identicon
                Anonymous Coward, 11 Oct 2016 @ 2:12pm

                Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: This isn't the end of the story

                the moderator re-queried Trump 41 times and Hillary 7


                So? Trump evaded the questions EVERY SINGLE TIME and Hillary only evaded them around 9 times. The fact that when she didn't evade she answered in the least direct way possible while also slinging mud is beside the point -- it just gave her less airtime to say anything actually positive and forward looking, with the rest of the airtime spent with the moderator trying to get Trump to say something new that actually made sense in context of the question at hand.

                It's impossible to be fair and balanced in a debate when:

                a) only two of the parties were allowed to attend
                b) both candidates don't want to answer the questions
                c) one candidate speaks with lies while the other speaks with innuendo.

                I honestly can't figure out why anyone would agree to moderate such a debate.

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              • identicon
                CrushU, 12 Oct 2016 @ 8:08am

                Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: This isn't the end of the story

                "In the first debate, the moderator re-queried Trump 41 times and Hillary 7."

                Uh, that usually means they didn't answer the damn question.

                reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

          • icon
            Roger Strong (profile), 11 Oct 2016 @ 11:14am

            Re: Re: Re: Re: This isn't the end of the story

            You mean like how during the debate Trump accused the moderators of raising the issue of Hillary's emails, after they had already raised it twice?

            reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

      • icon
        OldGeezer (profile), 11 Oct 2016 @ 9:29am

        Re: Re: This isn't the end of the story

        Plenty of videos of Hillary have been released. They show proof of many lies she has told. They also show segments of her taking exactly opposite stands on several important issues.

        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

        • identicon
          Anonymous Coward, 11 Oct 2016 @ 11:32am

          Re: Re: Re: This isn't the end of the story

          Do they show her talking about grabbing a guys balls?

          reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

          • identicon
            David, 11 Oct 2016 @ 1:30pm

            Re: Re: Re: Re: This isn't the end of the story

            I've read some of the comment section on the NBC article. The retorts go something like "Hillary is the spawn of the devil and you would not want her to be at the helm", "Hillary blackmailed the victims of her serial rapist husband", "crooked Hillary is a thousand times worse", "Trump is the symbol of breaking up with the political establishment and I am going to vote for this symbol regardless of what the lying press will come up with" and so on.

            You don't really think you can take any of this seriously so far detached from sanity this seems. But history has enough examples of sane and reasonable not garnering majority votes.

            reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

          • identicon
            I.T. Guy, 11 Oct 2016 @ 2:00pm

            Re: Re: Re: Re: This isn't the end of the story

            Devil's Advocate:
            Are you saying she hasn't? And/or never talked about it?

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            • identicon
              David, 11 Oct 2016 @ 3:04pm

              Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: This isn't the end of the story

              Yeah, where is the irrefutable proof Hillary is an angel descended from heaven in the second coming of Mary (not in the Cameron Diaz sense)? Because if there is no such proof, what business have you harping on Trump not being an angel from heaven? Clearly a double standard.

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            • identicon
              Anonymous Coward, 11 Oct 2016 @ 5:30pm

              Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: This isn't the end of the story

              Weak sauce

              reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

      • icon
        sorrykb (profile), 11 Oct 2016 @ 10:25am

        Re: Re: This isn't the end of the story

        I just wish that the media would release the Hillary Clinton tapes as well as cover the Wikileaks documents on her. There are a boat load of documents on Wikileaks now that the lamestream media are ignoring. I am all for reporting if they would report on both sides. There are documents where Hillary refers to Muslims in a most derogatory way but I bet you won't see that on the 6 o'clock news.

        Then you show us these documents. Go ahead. No one here is stopping you,
        ...
        If the "lamestream media" got their hands on documents like that they would be falling over themselves racing to report it, because it would be big news. BREAKING NEWS HEADLINE NEWS EXLUSIVE INTERVIEW BLAH BLAH BLAH. Those driven by ratings would dive at it. Those driven by journalism would also want to expose it.

        So.... You say there are documents. Prove it.

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        • This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it
          identicon
          Anonymous Coward, 11 Oct 2016 @ 10:41am

          Re: Re: Re: This isn't the end of the story

          Please learn to use Google. Especially on YouTube where you will see actual videos of the candidates on the left saying and doing things that never get reported.

          For example, the left tried to claim they would have never gone into Iraq the second time. A quick search of YouTube will show countless videos of Hillary, Gore, Kerry, etc all backing the invasion of Iraq. But come election time, they lie about it and the liberal media let them off the hook.

          Please, learn to learn for yourself and quit relying on being spoon fed by others, including me.

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          • identicon
            Anonymous Coward, 11 Oct 2016 @ 10:46am

            Re: Re: Re: Re: This isn't the end of the story

            Hahahahaha the classic argument of someone who doesn't have one.

            reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

          • icon
            sorrykb (profile), 11 Oct 2016 @ 10:47am

            Re: Re: Re: Re: This isn't the end of the story

            In other words, you have no proof to back up your bullshit claims.

            reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

            • identicon
              Anonymous Coward, 11 Oct 2016 @ 10:55am

              Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: This isn't the end of the story

              Classic response for someone unwilling to entertain views different from their own. You may remain willfully ignorant if you like, but it only makes you look foolish to those who see information from all sides.

              Just to give you one more chance, please watch this video with Hillary and Chris Mathews. It is just one of many, many videos showing her flip flopping and lieing about her postions. You can search for videos of her going after Bill's victims as well. So any more posting about me not having answers will show you for the lazy, unimformed person you are.

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZkK2_6H9MM

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              • identicon
                Anonymous Coward, 11 Oct 2016 @ 12:05pm

                Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: This isn't the end of the story

                So any more posting about me not having answers will show you for the lazy, unimformed person you are.

                Actually, it shows YOU as the lazy person you are.

                They're your assertions - YOU go fucking use the Google and back them up.

                One video. Bet that took you hours.

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              • identicon
                Anonymous Coward, 11 Oct 2016 @ 5:32pm

                Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: This isn't the end of the story

                "Classic response for someone unwilling to entertain views different from their own. "

                I doubt they were asking for views/opinions, they were asking for supporting evidence which backs up your claims - in the absence of which said claims are tossed in the dumper.

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                • identicon
                  Anonymous Coward, 11 Oct 2016 @ 5:37pm

                  Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: This isn't the end of the story

                  And I have told them repeatedly to search YouTube for any subject they wish and they will see what Hillary and the other Dems have said in the past about any subject they wish. The fact that they want me to pick a subject is a diversion so they can pretend I didn't show anything and they can avoid doing any searching themselves. They wish to remain willfully ignorant of what their leadership actually says, does and believes. Just pick a topic and search, can't get any easier than that, but sure blame me for your ignorance if you wish.

                  reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

                  • identicon
                    Anonymous Coward, 11 Oct 2016 @ 8:54pm

                    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: This isn't the end of the story

                    "And I have told them repeatedly to search YouTube"

                    Why should anyone do what you tell them? You are the one attempting to persuade others into believing what you say is correct - others are calling out your bullshit and all you can do is repeat what you already said.

                    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

          • icon
            Roger Strong (profile), 11 Oct 2016 @ 11:22am

            Re: Re: Re: Re: This isn't the end of the story

            > For example, the left tried to claim they would have never gone into Iraq the second time. A quick search of YouTube will show countless videos of Hillary, Gore, Kerry, etc all backing the invasion of Iraq.

            Hillary voted for military action in Iraq. Which up to that point meant the occasional air strike and "Tomahawk therapy", NOT a full invasion and decade-long military occupation.

            And she voted for it based on Bush's promise that it was leverage for a push for a diplomatic solution (making Saddam Hussein readmit U.N. weapons inspectors.) Bush broke that promise and didn't allow time for the diplomatic approach to play out.

            And of course the vote was based on the evidence presented for Saddam's active WMD program - evidence which turned out to be a lie by the Bush White House.

            reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

            • identicon
              Anonymous Coward, 11 Oct 2016 @ 11:30am

              Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: This isn't the end of the story

              The truth is much more nuanced than that. Many countries thought Saddam had WMDs. Saddam did too good of job convincing the world he had them in order to hold back Iran. Also, the intelligence communities failed and did not share data, which led to the rise of the DHS. So Bush was acting on bad intel just as the left was. Only the left lied about actually supporting the invasion but the sheeple had short memories and believe them. The media did not call them out on it, but the internet never forgets. Thus YouTube is full of videos showing them favoring the invasion then later saying they never favored it. Hillary is the queen of these liars.

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              • icon
                sorrykb (profile), 11 Oct 2016 @ 11:45am

                Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: This isn't the end of the story

                I opposed the Iraq war from the start (and before). I thought it was insane.

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              • icon
                Roger Strong (profile), 11 Oct 2016 @ 12:22pm

                Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: This isn't the end of the story

                > Also, the intelligence communities failed and did not share data, which led to the rise of the DHS. So Bush was acting on bad intel just as the left was.

                They gave Bush good intelligence, but it wasn't what he wanted to hear.

                American intelligence told Bush that the Niger yellowcake story was false. He used it anyway in a State of the Union address. Colin Powell used that and other fake evidence to testify before the UN Security Council anyway

                When the world found out it was a lie, the CIA had to fall on their sword and apologize for Bush's lie. When someone didn't follow THAT script, the White House outed his wife as a CIA agent and destroyed her career. (Scooter Libby fell on HIS sword and took the blame, and was promptly pardoned by the White House.)

                "The left" and most everyone else had to depend on information from Bush II / Cheney / Rumsfeld, not from the intelligence community. It turned out to be a lie, just like what they promised to do with the vote on it.

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                • identicon
                  Thad, 11 Oct 2016 @ 1:05pm

                  Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: This isn't the end of the story

                  Mostly accurate, but the following corrections:

                  1) Libby wasn't pardoned, his sentence was commuted. There's a difference; his conviction stands but he was released early. (There's been some conjecture that the reason he wasn't pardoned is that then he could have been compelled to testify against Bush and Cheney.)

                  2) There were plenty of people on the left who were openly skeptical of the Bush Administration's claims; unfortunately, they were largely unheeded. The New York Times went with Judith Miller's version of the story, which basically parroted the Bush Administration unquestioningly, and for "supporting evidence" used sources like Curveball and Chalabi who obviously stood to gain something by lying.

                  Unfortunately, hawkish Democrats like Clinton and Kerry went along with the Bush Administration's case for war instead of listening to the skeptics. I did not then, nor do I now, believe that they did this because they truly believed Bush had made an adequate case to go to war; I think they went along with him because they mistakenly believed that the war would be popular and supporting it would be good for their political careers.

                  3) The intelligence community actually *did* believe Saddam had WMD's, but it believed he still had stockpiles of chemical weapons, not that he had a nuclear weapons program of any kind. (It turns out he had neither; his chemical weapons stockpiles had been destroyed, partly by airstrikes and partly by the passage of time.) But the Bush Administration deliberately conflated the intelligence about chemical weapons with the uncorroborated claims of nuclear weapons, and put both under the umbrella term "weapons of mass destruction".

                  The distinction is important. Chemical weapons are awful, but even when Iraq had them, they were no threat to the US. Nuclear weapons would of course be a threat to the US.

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                  • identicon
                    Anonymous Coward, 11 Oct 2016 @ 5:36pm

                    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: This isn't the end of the story

                    If Trump were president, would Bush43 be put in jail?

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            • identicon
              I.T. Guy, 11 Oct 2016 @ 2:14pm

              Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: This isn't the end of the story

              "And she voted for it based on Bush's promise that it was leverage for a push for a diplomatic solution (making Saddam Hussein readmit U.N. weapons inspectors.)"

              http://fpif.org/five-lamest-excuses-hillary-clintons-vote-invade-iraq/

              "Clinton went on record calling for “unequivocal support” for Bush’s “firm leadership and decisive action” as “part of the ongoing Global War on Terrorism.”"

              https://www.congress.gov/bill/108th-congress/house-concurrent-resolution/104/text

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          • identicon
            Thad, 11 Oct 2016 @ 12:07pm

            Re: Re: Re: Re: This isn't the end of the story

            For example, the left tried to claim they would have never gone into Iraq the second time. A quick search of YouTube will show countless videos of Hillary, Gore, Kerry, etc all backing the invasion of Iraq. But come election time, they lie about it and the liberal media let them off the hook.


            Yeah, the liberal media has covered this story so little that when I type clinton supported iraq into Google, I only get 74 million results.

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            • identicon
              I.T. Guy, 11 Oct 2016 @ 2:15pm

              Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: This isn't the end of the story

              Are we equating quantity for quality now?

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              • identicon
                Anonymous Coward, 11 Oct 2016 @ 2:31pm

                Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: This isn't the end of the story

                Are we equating quantity for quality now?


                Please... one of each of them is more than enough.

                But I'm curious what the quality of the votes will be come election day.

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              • identicon
                Thad, 11 Oct 2016 @ 2:38pm

                Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: This isn't the end of the story

                Are we moving the goalposts?

                reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

                • identicon
                  David, 11 Oct 2016 @ 3:13pm

                  Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: This isn't the end of the story

                  You are not going to score a goal otherwise with the orange thing having dug itself into such a hole.

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                  • identicon
                    Thad, 11 Oct 2016 @ 3:48pm

                    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: This isn't the end of the story

                    Wait, moving goalposts to get out of a hole? I'm not only confused by the rules of this sport, but by its basic physics.

                    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

                    • identicon
                      David, 11 Oct 2016 @ 10:25pm

                      Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: This isn't the end of the story

                      No, no. You move the goal posts past the orange thing to score a goal. That's relativity.

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          • identicon
            Anonymous Coward, 11 Oct 2016 @ 2:29pm

            Re: Re: Re: Re: This isn't the end of the story

            OK; so the argument goes from "Hillary refers to Muslims in a most derogatory way" to "the left tried to claim they would have never gone into Iraq the second time"

            Everyone's two-facedness regarding Iraq is already well covered; everyone voting already knows that very few candidates have stayed the course on that issue. Guantanamo is even worse. What exactly does it have to do with Hillary's alleged derogatory speech? I'm sure there's some out there, even if it's out of context. But so far, all I've seen is allegations. It's almost like people can't bother to dig that stuff up because they know it's pointless. Hillary hasn't gone around claiming that she loves all Muslims and has never said a bad word about them. Trump keeps inviting fact checking on his statements, and the facts keep rolling in. This difference is mostly due to Hillary's experience in the political arena; she tries to avoid saying/doing things in a way that can make her look bad -- which is why the major claims against her are with regards to destroying evidence.

            Trying to smear her character when her only real opponent's character is demonstrated to be significantly worse than hers could ever be, week after week, is pointless. Trying to minimize her experience when her only opponent has virtually none just serves to remind us of this fact; digging up all her failed or questionable decisions will do nothing to change this.

            So what really needs to happen is Trump's team needs to stop attacking Hillary in areas where she's demonstrably better than Trump, and start focusing solely on areas where Trump is squeaky clean -- and on the other topics, focus on the positive changes Trump will make if elected, instead of on how the world is going to hell in a handbasket and only someone with his moral fortitude can save the day.

            Really; the American Voters aren't that stupid, no matter who gets more airtime in the media and for what. Both candidates are repeatedly shooting themselves in the foot; Trump is just firing faster than Hilary.

            As you argue: the information is already all out there. And yet very few people seem to be voting for Jill Stein.

            reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

            • icon
              sorrykb (profile), 11 Oct 2016 @ 2:34pm

              Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: This isn't the end of the story

              Trump's team needs to stop attacking Hillary in areas where she's demonstrably better than Trump, and start focusing solely on areas where Trump is squeaky clean

              There must be something, right? ;-)

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            • identicon
              Anonymous Coward, 11 Oct 2016 @ 5:38pm

              Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: This isn't the end of the story

              "Everyone's two-facedness regarding Iraq "

              Speak for yourself

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          • icon
            JMT (profile), 11 Oct 2016 @ 9:05pm

            Re: Re: Re: Re: This isn't the end of the story

            "Please learn to use Google."

            You first. Start with 'burden of proof'.

            reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • icon
    Ninja (profile), 11 Oct 2016 @ 7:24am

    Trump is a living parody

    A sad one but a parody of the most conservative US. PArt of the support he had was due to people fed up with the establishment (and Hillary is the preferred candidate of the establishment). But he is so bigoted, so racist, so bad that he is losing that support altogether. And he still has a lot of support. This speaks volumes of humanity because he's far from the only example in the world.

    We have made astonishing progress in sciences and technology but in the human field we are walking the slug pace, unfortunately.

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • icon
      Lord Lidl of Cheem (profile), 11 Oct 2016 @ 7:29am

      Re: Trump is a living parody

      Do you want an American Rodrigo Duterte, because thats how you get an American Rodrigo Duterte.

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • icon
      Wendy Cockcroft (profile), 11 Oct 2016 @ 7:37am

      Re: Trump is a living parody

      Two words, my friend: Powell Memorandum. This version is easy to copy extracts from: http://www.greenpeace.org/usa/democracy/the-lewis-powell-memo-a-corporate-blueprint-to-dominate-demo cracy/

      The trouble with allowing corporate interests to embed propaganda in the media, in educational establishments, and in political discourse is that "corporate interests" isn't one cohesive group. Result: money has been poured into promoting conflicting right wing causes by individuals and groups each trying to advance their own agendas. This accounts for the fracturing of discourse while the whole damn lot lurches rightwards.

      Meanwhile the Republican party has been courting the fringe loons and using wedge issues to drag people on to their side as part of the Southern Strategy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_strategy

      So if you add both together the endgame candidate is either Clinton or Trump, depending on whether you're motivated more by money and power or by privilege and paranoia. There's no way rigging the game could possibly create an alternate scenario with sane, qualified candidates. The entire system needs to be reset and opened up so a more honest conversation can take place, possibly with a view to creating an electoral system based on proportional representation in which people are invited to engage.

      A girl can dream.

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

      • icon
        jupiterkansas (profile), 11 Oct 2016 @ 7:45am

        Re: Re: Trump is a living parody

        The system will never be reset. You're better off just finding a country to live in with a system you approve of.

        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

      • identicon
        Baron von Robber, 11 Oct 2016 @ 7:48am

        Re: Re: Trump is a living parody

        What I find amusing is that Drumpf (Make Donald Drumpf Again!) was running as an anti-establishment candidate. But isn't an establishment candidate somebody who takes money and pushes legislation in the giver's favor? If so, then Drumpf isn't anti-establishment, but the source of the establishment as he had often bragged about how much money he gave to the establishment.

        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 11 Oct 2016 @ 7:25am

    The fact that NBC is a rich multi-billion dollar corporation makes the delay even more absurd.

    The cost of hypothetical legal fees defending such a story should easily be a drop in the bucket for such a large corporation. We're not just talking about a small news organization, or just a single TV show here, we're talking about the entire NBC broadcast channel, as well as MSNBC.

    If there's anyone who should be immune to threats of nuisance legal threats, it's freaking NBC!

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • identicon
      Anonymous Coward, 11 Oct 2016 @ 7:32am

      Re:

      See that is exactly why I think there is far more to it than a simple fear of Trump.

      I would not be surprised if evidence comes out that executives knew about this behavior and enabled it to continue to have Trump on the Apprentice and other shows. They they initially refused to run the tape because they feared the public backlash and multiple victim lawsuits.

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • identicon
      Anonymous Coward, 11 Oct 2016 @ 11:46am

      Re:

      Trump had a multi-million viewer show on the channel. And just because he was fired last year, it doesn't mean he doesn't know who the bosses shack at lunchbreak, has some knowledge worth some more substantial lawsuits or doesn't have some contractual arrangements with the show.

      Is all!

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

      • identicon
        Anonymous Coward, 11 Oct 2016 @ 12:03pm

        Re: Re:

        Imagine the potential lawsuits and HR issues if it was discovered executives knew about Trumps assaults and let it continue to happen to appease him. It is Cosby all over again.

        That is what I bet was going through their minds.

        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • identicon
      Arnold Sebert, 14 Oct 2016 @ 12:30pm

      Re: NBC'in ya

      One could argue that the threat implicit in earlier actions had the effect of Trump grabbing NBC's pussy and that NBC was in shock as a result.

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 11 Oct 2016 @ 7:32am

    Re: Access Hollywood found the tape itself last Monday

    I'm sure they did. Filed in the "people we have dirt on" vault between "S" and "U".

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 11 Oct 2016 @ 7:38am

    I honestly do believe that NBC is using the "afraid of being sued" excuse as a cover up for why they really didn't release the tapes. Access Hollywood is literally a safe haven for truly horrible people, who probably have truly horrible things to say. If they become scared that Access Hollywood is going to leak, intentionally or not, these horrible things the show will no longer be granted the access they need to survive.

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • identicon
    Anon, 11 Oct 2016 @ 7:54am

    Like Healthcare

    Here in Canada - unless there's a compelling reason, the loser pays the legal expenses of the winner. For some reason, that results in a lot less civil frivolous lawsuits.

    Maybe the US should look at the Canadian system; just like health care.

    (PS. What the heck was Trump talking about in the second debate with Canadian health care? Yes, we have line-ups if your care is not critical, but the only people who go south for care are those with a TON of money or for cutting edge procedures - after all the USA still does have the leading edge hospitals and doctors for new and experimental procedures. If it's an emergency, any citizen gets the best possible health care immediately and it costs them nothing.)

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • identicon
      Anonymous Coward, 11 Oct 2016 @ 8:52am

      Re: Like Healthcare

      after all the USA still does have the leading edge hospitals and doctors for new and experimental procedures


      Hmm, wonder why that is? Maybe because they aren't government run? Also, I have seen that Canadians can actually pay for better care than the base healthcare system provides. So in effect, those with money can get better care. The very thing liberals decry.

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

      • identicon
        Anonymous Coward, 11 Oct 2016 @ 12:26pm

        Re: Re: Like Healthcare

        Australian hospitals and universities regularly develop cutting edge medical procedures. I've been the guinea pig for a couple. People often complain about our public health system but I would rather be treated here than in the States. What do people in the US get in exchange for their taxes? Is it the difference in population that makes the cost seem so high or the love of capitalism?

        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

        • icon
          Roger Strong (profile), 11 Oct 2016 @ 12:43pm

          Re: Re: Re: Like Healthcare

          It's the same in Canada. Insulin, the Polio vaccine, AIDS drug 3TC and recent major breakthroughs in stem cell research came out of Canada. A lab in my home town of Winnipeg was the first in the world to decode the genetic sequences for both the H1N1 flu virus and the SARS virus. Biovail Corporation here is developing drugs for the treatment of neurological conditions such as epilepsy, multiple sclerosis and Parkinson's disease.

          But that's not what American healthcare corporation owned and operated congressmen want to hear.

          When former Massachusetts senator Paul Tsongas was running for president in 1992, he lashed out at the Canadian health model. Tsongas had suffered from lymphoma, and claimed that the bone marrow transplant that saved his life was an example of how the American system spurred innovation that would never happen under creativity-stifling Canadian-style health care.

          The only problem with his claim was that the key research breakthroughs that led to bone marrow transplants were made in Toronto, and Canadians, at the time Tsongas was speaking, were receiving the procedure more often than Americans.

          More recently Newfoundland premier Danny Williams headed south for heart surgery, much to the delight of American Republicans. But the "minimally invasive" robotic surgery that Premier Wilson got, was invented in Canada and was immediately available in at least four centers across Canada. But America has centers that cater to the Very Wealthy, complete with lodgings for family members. Even Canadians admit that America does a better job of catering to the Very Wealthy.

          Not that you need to be wealthy to use private healthcare in Canada. I've done it myself. It cost far less than in the US, because the Canadian system covered what it would have cost had I stayed with the public system. My private health insurance through work covered the difference - health insurance that's far cheaper than in the US because of what the public system covered.

          reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

      • identicon
        Anonymous Coward, 11 Oct 2016 @ 12:26pm

        Re: Re: Like Healthcare

        Australian hospitals and universities regularly develop cutting edge medical procedures. I've been the guinea pig for a couple. People often complain about our public health system but I would rather be treated here than in the States. What do people in the US get in exchange for their taxes? Is it the difference in population that makes the cost seem so high or the love of capitalism?

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  • identicon
    I.T. Guy, 11 Oct 2016 @ 8:02am

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 11 Oct 2016 @ 8:24am

    Talk is cheap, boys will be boys, and Bill Clinton is a rapist.

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • identicon
      Anonymous Coward, 11 Oct 2016 @ 8:53am

      Re:

      And Hillary bullies his victims into remaining silent. But that doesn't make the lamestream media. We have a media trying to pick the next President and that should scare everyone.

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      • identicon
        Baron von Robber, 11 Oct 2016 @ 9:09am

        Re: Re:

        Hillary bullies his victims? Who is Hillary bullying on behalf of?

        Then you have Drumpf who loves to bully as well, with lawsuits (3500+)

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        • identicon
          Anonymous Coward, 11 Oct 2016 @ 10:11am

          Re: Re: Re:

          She bullied them to protect Bill, who else would she do it for? If you want proof, do some searching on YouTube and you will find all kinds of videos on both of the Clinton's. But as it is, you choose to be spoon fed by a liberal media so you will never see or hear the rest of the story.

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          • identicon
            Anonymous Coward, 11 Oct 2016 @ 10:47am

            Re: Re: Re: Re:

            Oh man, videos on YouTube? Such compelling evidence.

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          • identicon
            Baron von Robber, 11 Oct 2016 @ 11:17am

            Re: Re: Re: Re:

            So there is videos of Hillary bullying one of Bill's victims, IE her voice, victim named, bad words? Not videos of stories of bullying one of Bill's victims?

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            • identicon
              Anonymous Coward, 11 Oct 2016 @ 11:23am

              Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

              The saying is true, you can lead a man to college but you can't make him think. Please take the blue pill and go on believing in your one-sided media informed view. There are no counter opinions; there are especially no counter facts to your beliefs. Do not seek them out, do not search for yourself. But whatever you do, please don't speak up in these conversations or you will continually be taken to task by the non-low information voters.

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              • icon
                sorrykb (profile), 11 Oct 2016 @ 11:28am

                Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

                gods man you're tedious

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              • identicon
                Thad, 11 Oct 2016 @ 12:18pm

                Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

                Please take the blue pill

                I'll take people who quote the Wachowskis in support of conservatism seriously just as soon as conservatives stop telling them which bathroom to use.

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                • identicon
                  Anonymous Coward, 11 Oct 2016 @ 2:28pm

                  Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

                  The bathroom change was put on the public with no debate. In all my years and my wife's years, we have never seen anyone in our respective restrooms of the other gender. This tells you, that the true transgenders were already using the bathroom of their choice. I have never seen anyone who looks like or dresses like a woman in the mens restroom.

                  Also, are you not suspect that the guy in NC who is pushing this is a registered sex offender? Is it not curious that he wants access to girls bathrooms and showers?

                  What about the NBA who has pulled games from NC for human rights issues? Yet they play games in China? And they are opening stores in Qatar, Saudia Arabia and others where they kill homosexuals. It takes 4 men to prove a woman was raped and somehow those 4 male witnesses are not around. If they are so gender neutral, why do they separate the WNBA from the NBA? Shouldn't a 7' tall transgender male be allowed to join the WNBA and play against 6' tall women? She could be the highest paid player in the WNBA.

                  This is what I mean by no public debate. The pandora's box opened by this is enormous. The motivations of the people behind the issue should be examined.

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                  • icon
                    sorrykb (profile), 11 Oct 2016 @ 2:36pm

                    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

                    I see your true colors shining through...

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                  • identicon
                    Thad, 11 Oct 2016 @ 2:41pm

                    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

                    That's cool that you're changing the subject and all, but my point stands: The Matrix was written and directed by two trans women, and when people quote the film as part of an argument supporting regressive social policies, it is ironic as fuck.

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                    • identicon
                      Anonymous Coward, 11 Oct 2016 @ 3:02pm

                      Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

                      Changing the subject? You brought up the bathroom issue or do you have that short of memory?

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                      • identicon
                        Thad, 11 Oct 2016 @ 3:54pm

                        Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

                        I brought it up to illustrate a point. You ignored the point and went off on an insane ramble about how trans people are sexual predators who only transition so they can win at basketball.

                        You like The Matrix, right? Okay. Well, it was written and directed by two trans women. Ergo, you have some common ground with some trans people, right? Maybe you can start looking at them as ordinary people who just want to be treated with decency and respect, instead of being treated like they're predators and con artists.

                        Then again, maybe you like predators and con artists. After all, you're a Trump supporter.

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                        • identicon
                          Anonymous Coward, 11 Oct 2016 @ 4:42pm

                          Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

                          I loved the Matrix and I don't care how people want to live their lives. Unlike the leftist beliefs, those on the right are not racists, bigots, sexists, phobes any more than those on the left. Sure, there are some, but Bill Clinton is a rapist and sexual predator and I don't believe that makes everyone on the left one. But the left love their name calling and labeling because it shuts down real discussion of the topics.

                          Speaking of topics, how is it that people who practice infanticide believe they are some kind of morally superior people? You dehumanize children in the same way the Dems dehumanized slaves and spent the next 100 years after the civil war fighting their right to vote and equal rights. It is the same attitude used to name call and label and dehumanize people you disagree with. You guys will never learn, not even after more than a hundred years.

                          Oh, and I am not a Trump supporter. I will vote for him though as a vote against Hillary.

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                          • icon
                            sorrykb (profile), 11 Oct 2016 @ 4:47pm

                            Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

                            Oh, and I am not a Trump supporter. I will vote for him though as a vote against Hillary.

                            You are a Trump supporter. You just believe you're smarter, more informed, and generally better than all those *other* Trump supporters.

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                            • identicon
                              Anonymous Coward, 11 Oct 2016 @ 5:00pm

                              Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

                              You are a Dem and falsely believe you are superior to all others. As I said, you dehumanize, label and name call to suppress opposing ideas.

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                              • identicon
                                Anonymous Coward, 11 Oct 2016 @ 5:46pm

                                Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

                                Here you are telling someone else how and why they do things. It's almost like you're "projecting" your beliefs into others. You might want to talk to someone about that before it becomes a problem.

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                            • icon
                              Anonymous Anonymous Coward (profile), 11 Oct 2016 @ 5:15pm

                              Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

                              Exactly. If he were really not a Trump supporter, and does not like Hillary, then he should vote for a third party, and spend his time working on reforming the system, so that third party votes matter.

                              Money in politics for one. The whole voting system for another. The fact of political parties for a third. The list goes on and on.

                              Yet he spends his time defending someone he does not like. Hmm!

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                              • identicon
                                Anonymous Coward, 11 Oct 2016 @ 5:33pm

                                Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

                                Uh, no. A vote for a 3rd party is a vote for Hillary. While I am not a Trump supporter, I do support the Republicans as a whole. Keeping the Dems out of power is a priority. They have run the national debt to an unbelievable high and Hillary will continue spending like a drunken sailor. Any hope we have of avoiding a major, long term crash depends on keeping the Dems out of office.

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                                • identicon
                                  Thad, 11 Oct 2016 @ 5:42pm

                                  Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

                                  They have run the national debt to an unbelievable high

                                  You do realize that a big part of why the national debt exploded as soon as Obama took office is that prior to that, they weren't counting the cost of the Iraq and Afghanistan Wars toward the national debt, right?

                                  Bush cut taxes while we were fighting two wars. Republicans sure didn't seem worried about the national debt then. Weird how it only becomes an issue when there's a Democrat in office.

                                  I mean, unless it's Bill Clinton and he reduces the debt. In that case, Republicans don't care about the national debt either, just whether the President's had an affair with an intern.

                                  Any hope we have of avoiding a major, long term crash depends on keeping the Dems out of office.

                                  Yeah, because the last time we had a Republican President, he did a great job of preventing a financial collapse.

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                                  • identicon
                                    Anonymous Coward, 11 Oct 2016 @ 5:56pm

                                    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

                                    The old "Bush's Fault" party line. Even after 8 years you guys won't give that up. So if we get 8 of Hillary and the debt puts us into bankruptcy whose fault will it be?

                                    We have not had a financial collapse under a Repub. We have had the ordinary, run of the mill recession. Now the great recession happened under Obama. We had a housing bubble pop. A housing bubble caused by a law Bill Clinton signed.

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                                    • identicon
                                      Thad, 12 Oct 2016 @ 4:49pm

                                      Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

                                      The old "Bush's Fault" party line. Even after 8 years you guys won't give that up.

                                      [...]

                                      A housing bubble caused by a law Bill Clinton signed.


                                      I can't help pointing out the irony of you bitching about people talking about a President who left office eight years ago and then immediately pivot to blaming one who left office sixteen years ago.

                                      But, real talk? The President only has so much control over the economy.

                                      You're right that Bill Clinton helped to cause the recession, with deregulation he passed during his term. And I'm right that George Bush contributed to the national debt by passing a tax cut while fighting two wars.

                                      But it's Congress that writes the bills. And it's corporate America that takes advantage of any leeway it's given, without regard to long-term risks or consequences.

                                      So, to answer your question: if there's a financial collapse under Clinton, whose fault is it? Well, that depends on the nature of the financial collapse, and what policies led to it. It could be something she was responsible for (she certainly was a cheerleader for harmful deregulation of the financial industry); it could be something she wasn't.

                                      I don't know what's going to happen in the future. All I know is what's happened in the past.

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                          • identicon
                            Thad, 11 Oct 2016 @ 5:37pm

                            Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

                            Unlike the leftist beliefs, those on the right are not racists, bigots, sexists, phobes any more than those on the left.

                            And yet you're the only guy here suggesting that trans people should be denied rights because otherwise they'll grope people in restrooms and cheat at basketball.
                            Dems dehumanized slaves and spent the next 100 years after the civil war fighting their right to vote and equal rights.

                            True. Which brings us up to the 1960's. Funny how Republicans' history of race relations in America always seems to stop there.

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                            • identicon
                              Anonymous Coward, 11 Oct 2016 @ 5:49pm

                              Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

                              Trans people aren't denied rights. There is no right to enter the restroom of the opposite gender. Besides, they are already using the bathroom of the opposite gender as you don't see women in the mens or vice versa. What you aren't addressing is the issue that the guy behind this push is a registered sex offender. He already knows real trans are using the bathroom they wish to use. He is pushing for his access to girls bathrooms, locker rooms and showers.

                              Are history does not stop in the 60's, it continues into the 70's and to the present with Roe v. Wade. If you want to see the relationship between abortion and racism, please YouTube it. It affects african americans to a much greater degree than Caucasian and that is why it was pushed for by Margaret Sanger. So the Dems racism extends to the very point of aborting them. Don't believe me, check Hillary's remarks praising Margaret.

                              Or are you going to remain willfully ignorant of the connection and not YouTube it?

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                              • identicon
                                Thad, 11 Oct 2016 @ 5:54pm

                                Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

                                So your best argument that Democratic racism stretches far beyond the 1960's is...a woman who died in 1966 was a racist.

                                Okay then.

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                                • identicon
                                  Anonymous Coward, 11 Oct 2016 @ 5:58pm

                                  Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

                                  So you are going to remain ignorant of the connection between racism and abortion/Planned Parenthood and Hillary? It is your choice, but as I have said before, it makes you look foolish when you speak to others who are more informed.

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                                  • identicon
                                    Thad, 12 Oct 2016 @ 5:10pm

                                    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

                                    I know who Margaret Sanger was, chuckles; she's yet another tired right-wing talking point about how Democrats are the real racists that never seem to include any examples from the past half-century.

                                    Margaret Sanger had some pretty disgusting eugenicist views.

                                    But it's possible to believe that somebody was despicable in one respect but that her work also helped a lot of people. There's no contradiction in that; lots of people who have done good work have had deep personal flaws.

                                    Planned Parenthood has done an immense amount of good in helping with family planning and reproductive health -- and the Republicans' obsession with trying to defund it has done real and measurable harm. Pence's crusade against PP led to a massive HIV spike in parts of Indiana. And what about the recent nonsense where the Republicans held up Zika funding because they didn't want any to go to Planned Parenthood -- because when you've got a disease that can be sexually transmitted and which causes birth defects, of course you shouldn't let anybody hand out condoms or birth control pills!

                                    But, y'know, we weren't actually talking about abortion until you brought it up, we were talking about racism. (Which we also weren't talking about until you brought it up, come to think of it.)

                                    Your crocodile tears over the racism of Planned Parenthood notwithstanding, I can't help but notice that Donald Trump's support from African-American voters is in the single digits. It would seem to me that African-Americans do not generally share your views that Democrats are the real racists because Margaret Sanger. I suggest that, rather than talk about what black people should be concerned about, you spend time actually listening to what they are concerned about. Maybe have some real conversations, ask some questions, get to know people, and listen to them respectfully even if their views don't match yours. You might learn something.

                                    I bet you can even find a few videos on the subject on YouTube.

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                                • identicon
                                  Anonymous Coward, 11 Oct 2016 @ 6:09pm

                                  Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

                                  Oh, additionally, the Wikileaks documents show Hillary referring to Muslims as sand..... (fill in the blank). Again, an example of Democratic racism.

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                                  • identicon
                                    Anonymous Coward, 11 Oct 2016 @ 6:10pm

                                    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

                                    She also referred to Hispanics as rice bowls. The hits just keep on coming with Dems.

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                                  • icon
                                    sorrykb (profile), 11 Oct 2016 @ 6:14pm

                                    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

                                    the Wikileaks documents show Hillary referring to Muslims as sand.... (fill in the blanks)

                                    Aaaaannnnnnd... now we see the quality of your "research".
                                    http://www.snopes.com/hillary-sand-wikileaks-dump/
                                    Your claim has been debunked, complete with citation to original sources.
                                    I'd say you've utterly blown your credibility, but... well...

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                                    • identicon
                                      Anonymous Coward, 11 Oct 2016 @ 6:20pm

                                      Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

                                      Ah, Snopes, the bastion of liberalism. Sorry, but if you Google "Snopes is wrong", you will find many, many issues with Snopes so I would say their credibility has been blown.

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                                      • icon
                                        sorrykb (profile), 11 Oct 2016 @ 6:27pm

                                        Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

                                        You know the really good thing about Snopes?
                                        They don't just say: "This is so" or "This isn't so." They actually provide citations to other sources to prove it.
                                        You should try that.

                                        Now I think we're done with you, because you have demonstrated beyond all doubt that you're not merely ignorant, but willfully ignorant. The former can be rectified. The latter is damning.

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                                      • identicon
                                        Anonymous Coward, 11 Oct 2016 @ 8:46pm

                                        Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

                                        lalalalalalala ... I can't hear you

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                                      • identicon
                                        Thad, 12 Oct 2016 @ 4:50pm

                                        Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

                                        Well, if you saw it on Google then it must be true.

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                                    • identicon
                                      Anonymous Coward, 11 Oct 2016 @ 6:23pm

                                      Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

                                      And the Google fu is weak with you. Once again, you guys need to learn to do searching for yourself and quit relying on liberal sources.

                                      https://wikileaks.org/clinton-emails/emailid/18539

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                                      • icon
                                        sorrykb (profile), 11 Oct 2016 @ 6:32pm

                                        Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

                                        JFC man, your link just proved Snopes correct.

                                        Adding "illiterate" to "willfully ignorant"...

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                                        • identicon
                                          Anonymous Coward, 11 Oct 2016 @ 6:40pm

                                          Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

                                          Ok, missed that one, skimmed the article to quickly, but why is she forwarding such a thing? And what about the DNC email where they refer to Hispanics as taco bowls? And why not address the link between racism and abortion? Why practice abortion at all and then cry human rights elsewhere?

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              • identicon
                RK57957, 11 Oct 2016 @ 12:44pm

                Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

                As someone who went to college I remember what one of my professors stated: do your own damned work and don't expect others to do it for you.

                So if you are going to make a statement and then bitch and moan when others do not go out to do your work to validate your statement and then asking them to stay silent when they point out you are being lazy ... then you can go fuck yourself.

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                • identicon
                  Anonymous Coward, 11 Oct 2016 @ 12:59pm

                  Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

                  I am attempting to teach you how to do your own research so you don't have to depend on others. But remain willfully ignorant if you wish.

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                  • identicon
                    Anonymous Coward, 11 Oct 2016 @ 1:01pm

                    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

                    Remain willfully lazy, if you wish.

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                  • identicon
                    Thad, 11 Oct 2016 @ 2:42pm

                    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

                    I am attempting to teach you how to do your own research

                    No you're not, you're attempting to teach him how to do your own research.

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                  • identicon
                    RK57957, 11 Oct 2016 @ 2:42pm

                    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

                    No what you are doing is trying to avoid and deflect and I have the feeling it's because you're either full of shit or were mis-representing something and once you got called out on it you couldn't gracefully acquiesce.

                    Although I'm feeling gracious we can call your specious unsubstantiated shit storm a lesson in teaching others to do "research".

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                  • identicon
                    Anonymous Coward, 11 Oct 2016 @ 2:43pm

                    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

                    Do you think it might be possible that many on here have already done their own research, and it doesn't agree with your conclusions? If you have data they aren't privy to, I'm certain they'd be interested in it. If you only have links to hearsay, innuendo and putdowns, they probably have better things to do with their time.

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                    • identicon
                      Anonymous Coward, 11 Oct 2016 @ 6:52pm

                      Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

                      No I don't. Their research is getting the same info from a half dozen liberal outlets that are basically just the same source. Go to YouTube and search out videos on the stuff you hear the right wing nutjobs talking about and you will see Hillary, Al, Kerry and all the others actually saying the things right wingers are talking about. It is them, in their interviews and press conferences. It is in Wikileaks from their own email. You and the others are remaining ignorant by choice. It is extremely sad and we will never make progress as long as you choose ignorance.

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                      • identicon
                        Thad, 12 Oct 2016 @ 4:51pm

                        Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

                        I can't help but noticing your sources for everything are "Google" and "YouTube".

                        You do understand that literally anyone can post content to YouTube or have it indexed on Google, yes?

                        Just because something is on the Internet doesn't make it true.

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              • identicon
                Anonymous Coward, 11 Oct 2016 @ 12:48pm

                Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

                You know what conservatives call people who don't do their own damn work? Takers.

                Congratulations. You're a taker.

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                • identicon
                  Anonymous Coward, 11 Oct 2016 @ 12:55pm

                  Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

                  So attempting to teach you how to do your own research so you don't have to depend on others to give you your opinion makes me a taker?

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                  • identicon
                    Anonymous Coward, 11 Oct 2016 @ 12:58pm

                    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

                    No - making a claim and telling someone else to verify it makes you a taker.

                    A lazy taker.

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                  • identicon
                    Thad, 11 Oct 2016 @ 2:43pm

                    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

                    No, but any time an Internet post begins with the word "so" and ends with a question mark, it's definitely a strawman.

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                  • identicon
                    Anonymous Coward, 11 Oct 2016 @ 2:47pm

                    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

                    I've taken courses on how to do effective research; I've gone to conferences focused on improving use of research data. Nothing I've seen you write in this thread so far falls under "teach" -- it falls under naysaying and telling people they're ignoramuses who refuse to get their heads out of the sand.

                    If any of my instructors had shown up and said "you can find everything you need to know about this on YouTube; get your heads out of the sand and do some proper research before you come back to my class" they probably would have been fired in short order.

                    So yes, I'd agree that so far you've been a taker. Feel free to turn that around and give us something new.

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                    • identicon
                      Anonymous Coward, 11 Oct 2016 @ 6:48pm

                      Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

                      I am not a teacher, besides Google is unbelievably easy to use. So again, attack me if you want, but that is no excuse for not searching for yourself. I have listed several things above you can start with, like the link between the DNC and Hillary rigging things against Bernie. The racist DNC emails. Hillary's connection to a racist pro-abortionist. Hillary's attacking and silencing of Bill's victims. Its all there. Its so easy to find. Don't rely on others to tell you what is, search and find it for yourself. Or remain ignorant. It really is your choice.

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                      • icon
                        Wendy Cockcroft (profile), 12 Oct 2016 @ 5:53am

                        Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

                        I got into a similar conversation over Basic Income. I did the research as advised and came out with more reasons than ever to oppose it. This is the main reason why you don't get other people to prove your point for you; they're unlikely to use the same sources of reference that you do.

                        Which is why you're hiding behind "Dig it up yourself," aren't you? You know damn well that if you provide us with the links to the evidence that backs up your position there's a damn good chance we'll find it's not credible.

                        That said, I find Hillary odious; she's actually a neocon war hawk. Democrats are not automatically left wing or progressive as such, it's just that the party caters to those people to get their votes.

                        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

      • icon
        techflaws (profile), 11 Oct 2016 @ 9:44am

        Re: Re:

        So why don't you put the proof that convinced you here on TD in the comments. If it's as good as you think, certainly someone will pick it up and run with it, no?

        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • icon
    timmaguire42 (profile), 11 Oct 2016 @ 8:26am

    It's a nice storey but...

    I know enough about the news media and their relationship to first amendment lawsuits to know it doesn't pass the smell test. The idea that they would hold this tape because they were worried about getting sued is laughable. They get sued all the time. Occupational hazard. They know it and they budget for it.

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • identicon
      Anonymous Coward, 11 Oct 2016 @ 2:50pm

      Re: It's a nice storey but...

      Yes. However, they also have a number of lucrative contracts that may be in jeopardy if they released the tape. Plus, there's the issue of the can of worms this opens; it's possible that many high ranking people at NBC may get personally drawn in to the fight, and allegations might be raised that result in more than just a loss of corporate money.

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • identicon
    bob, 11 Oct 2016 @ 8:54am

    the timing is too convenient

    I also am not buying the excuse that they were afraid of being sued. I would bet they knew about the tape a lot sooner. They we're just waiting for a good opportunity to release it when it was too late for republicans to choose a new candidate.

    The fact that this is what causes people to dump trump is laughable. As John Oliver points out, there were many other problems with Trump's conduct and words previous to this video that Trump should have been dumped a long time ago.

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • icon
      Wyrm (profile), 11 Oct 2016 @ 9:46am

      Re: the timing is too convenient

      Welcome to USA, where your ideas, program and skills are less important for choosing the next president than what he does with his genitals.

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

      • identicon
        Thad, 11 Oct 2016 @ 9:50am

        Re: Re: the timing is too convenient

        The problem isn't what he does with his genitals, it's what he does with other people's.

        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

        • identicon
          Anonymous Coward, 11 Oct 2016 @ 2:52pm

          Re: Re: Re: the timing is too convenient

          Well, to be fair, in his own words, it's not what he does with other people's genitals, it's what he says he's done with other people's genitals. And based on the other things he's said, you can be sure that what he says and what he does aren't necessarily the same thing. Locker Room Talk, you know.

          reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

          • identicon
            Anonymous Coward, 11 Oct 2016 @ 9:03pm

            Re: Re: Re: Re: the timing is too convenient

            Except it was not in a locker room was it?

            And many professional athletes say they have never heard any such banter in or out of a locker room.

            reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 11 Oct 2016 @ 9:29am

    "Locker Room Talk" How many guys sit around the table or bar, look at a woman and talk about how they would bang her? Was Trump talking about "assaulting" women or was he talking about because of who he was, he could bang women? Are women that go backstage at a rock concert and bang the band being "assaulted"? Trump is an idiot and part of me believes that he actually wants Hillary to win, but should he be accused of assaulting women?

    My vote this year will be "None of the Above"

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 11 Oct 2016 @ 9:37am

    "I spent a couple of bucks on legal fees, and they spent a whole lot more. I did it to make his life miserable, which I'm happy about."

    That could become I got elected president to make life miserable for people I disagree with.

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • identicon
      Anonymous Coward, 11 Oct 2016 @ 2:55pm

      Re:

      Great... now I just have to make him aware of the right people and what I think they've done that he should disagree with, and I'm set for life!

      Oh wait, I'm not Putin.

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 11 Oct 2016 @ 9:37am

    I'm not for any potential future president but its seems like they just waited for a strategical moment before the 2nd debate to release it.

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • identicon
      Thad, 11 Oct 2016 @ 9:59am

      Re:

      If they were waiting for a strategic moment, it wouldn't have been after the first debate. The first debate is usually the last shot the candidates have at moving the polls; the second and third debate usually don't move the needle significantly.

      There's a reason for the phrase "October surprise": events that significantly shift the race this late in the campaign are rare enough that it's surprising when it happens.

      Christ, early voting has already started in some states. If you were trying to swing an election, why on Earth would you wait until after people had already started voting?

      Never mind that, y'know, this isn't going to swing the election; aggregate polls and betting odds were giving Clinton an 80% chance of winning before this story broke. This is likely to increase her lead even further, and it could impact some down-ballot races that were already close. But Trump would still be in serious trouble even if this story had never broken.

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 11 Oct 2016 @ 9:46am

    Unwanted groping is assault. Did Kennedy rape Marylyn Monroe? Did Bill Clinton rape Monica (he might have raped others, but Monica?)

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • identicon
      Anonymous Coward, 11 Oct 2016 @ 10:01am

      Re:

      "he might have raped others"

      Because he didn't rape one, you casually dismiss the others.

      "I want to send a message to every survivor of sexual assault: Don’t let anyone silence your voice. You have the right to be heard. You have the right to be believed, and we’re with you." - Hillary

      But the above quote only applies to people other than Bill.

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

      • identicon
        Anonymous Coward, 11 Oct 2016 @ 2:57pm

        Re: Re:

        Huh? You think Hillary doesn't think Bill has the right to be believed and heard?

        Maybe s/Bill/Bill's alleged victims/

        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • identicon
      Anonymous Coward, 11 Oct 2016 @ 12:10pm

      Re:

      It is a very difficult line to draw. Particularly the social differences, makes it a statutory situation. Statutory rape? She claims to have consented, but it is all but impossible to tell if that is a result of the enormous social pressure. The doubt that Trump exploits is a double edged sword, though.

      Trumps lewd comments are certainly walking the morally problematic side of "should have known better", no matter what (Running a pageant, the pressure is even more on the girls since the counterweight to political figures are clear and useful for protection). As much as Bill Clinton cannot be cleared by a court, I would not advise him taking the relativity test against Bill Clinton, since it sentences himself, while making Hillary a victim and not an offender...

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 11 Oct 2016 @ 10:13am

    I don't think Monica ever claimed she was raped. Others did. My point is that Bill used his position (as famous person, president) to bang an intern. She had sex with him for who he was. That isn't rape. Oh, and it happens in companies all throughout the country too, where older men have sex with interns. Is that assault? Is that rape?

    My point isn't that Donald Trump isn't a pig (because he is, but a lot of guys are pigs), it is that he wasn't out there assaulting women back then (and probably now.)

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • identicon
      Thad, 11 Oct 2016 @ 11:45am

      Re:

      You mean aside from the multiple allegations that he was?

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • identicon
      Anonymous Coward, 11 Oct 2016 @ 3:00pm

      Re:

      My point isn't that Donald Trump isn't a pig (because he is, but a lot of guys are pigs), it is that he wasn't out there assaulting women back then (and probably now.)


      The Donald said otherwise. Are you saying he lied?

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • icon
      Wendy Cockcroft (profile), 12 Oct 2016 @ 5:57am

      Re:

      Monica claims it was a full-on love affair and alleged no misconduct on Bill's part till he denied he had been involved with her, then dumped her altogether.

      Bill is a perve, end of.

      Good grief, you Americans have a choice between Strychnine and Cyanide, don't you? Why are we arguing over this? They're both awful!

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 11 Oct 2016 @ 11:06am

    Being reported by some media and being in the headlines of the NYT, CNN and Washington Post are not the same.

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 11 Oct 2016 @ 11:22am

    The biggest victim of this election is the public's perception of the media. The left believed that Fox was just a republican tool for the right. This election, the rest of the media has been so slanted that now the right doesn't believe anything that is being covered. Now people are left with nothing that they can trust.

    Not sure that is what we had in mind when we asked for of the 4th estate.

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • identicon
      Thad, 11 Oct 2016 @ 11:58am

      Re:

      You really think this is new to this election?

      Republicans have been suspicious of the media for decades. Nixon used to say "The press is the enemy." The phrase "the liberal media" is not a new one.

      Indeed, Fox News's conservative slant was deliberately designed to counter the "liberal bias" that many conservatives see in the media. (And then MSNBC eventually positioned itself as a liberal counterbalance to Fox News -- though it's still got a prominent conservative voice in Joe Scarborough.)

      I think partisans of any stripe are inclined to claim media bias any time they see a story that criticizes their party or candidate. Sometimes those criticisms are valid, sometimes they aren't.

      I think that, in a practical sense, the news media's bias isn't toward Democrats or Republicans or liberals or conservatives, it's toward ratings. Whatever story's going to get the most attention, that's the story they're going to go with.

      Often, that means a narrative that depicts some sort of arc, a rise and a fall. In Trump's case, the media gave him a hell of a lot more coverage than any other candidate, and it helped him clinch the nomination; now, it's got a nice juicy story to sink its teeth into, and so it's savaging him over that.

      The press has spent plenty of time pillorying Clinton, too; her E-Mail scandal got considerable coverage. The most recent news from Wikileaks is getting less attention (though it's getting some attention), and that's because wall street speeches are less likely to capture viewers' interest than dirty words and groping.

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • identicon
      Anonymous Coward, 11 Oct 2016 @ 12:26pm

      Re:

      As much as Fox is conservative, that is mostly in their angling of the stories. When it comes to Trump, the man is just difficult to cover in a positive light since he sabotages himself so heavily whenever he opens his mouth.

      What is left of really Trump-enthusiastic media is very exclusive and tends to lean towards more conspiratorial thinking than what is found in the mainstream media.

      As much as these sources have a claim to fame, they are spinning more obviously and more towards making Clinton unelectable.

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 11 Oct 2016 @ 11:39am

    deflection

    Ohhhhh - look over there

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • icon
    DV Henkel-Wallace (profile), 11 Oct 2016 @ 1:46pm

    winderful irony

    If NBC hand't been afraid, this might have come out sooner and given time for Trump to let it blow over as previous revelations have. Instead he has much less room to manoever.

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • identicon
      Thad, 11 Oct 2016 @ 2:47pm

      Re: winderful irony

      ...they found the tape on Monday and it was released on Friday. Do you really think if they'd released it four days earlier then everybody would have forgotten about it by election day?

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 11 Oct 2016 @ 2:12pm

    OK, totally offtrack. Saddam didn't have chemical weapons? Go back, we were sitting there waiting to hit Iraq. Everyone knew we would hit Iraq. How long did Saddam have to get rid of his chemical weapons? Its not like his neighbors would have minded receiving those. He could have had tons and shipped them off to neighbors long before we actually went in.

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • identicon
      Thad, 11 Oct 2016 @ 2:45pm

      Re:

      I never really understood the "As soon as we attacked Saddam, he got rid of all his weapons" argument. Does that seriously make logical sense to anybody?

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 11 Oct 2016 @ 3:21pm

    "Techdirt readers complained that I was clearly just stirring up shit because I'm a Hillary Clinton supporter."

    So you finally admit it. Not that you needed to, it's painfully obvious that you're sucking her ass by the coverage ratios alone. Yes, you've posted a few token stories about Hillary to project the illusion of "balanced coverage", but when the anti-Trump pieces are weighed against those "anti-"Hillary, your blind allegiance becomes obvious. Shit, you even tried to turn the wikileaks email dumps targeting Hillary into an anti-Trump piece. Otherwise, you've not covered those leaks on a per-se basis even at all. Additionally, and just like Michael Che, you've resorted to flat out lying about Trump to get your baby-assed way. It's not "rape" or "sexual assault" when consent is involved. Seriously, what part of "they let you" does your phucktaded brain not understand?

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • identicon
      Anonymous Coward, 11 Oct 2016 @ 3:33pm

      Re:

      I was reading this comment waiting for the punch line.

      Still waiting....

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • identicon
      Thad, 11 Oct 2016 @ 4:00pm

      Re:

      ...you just took the phrase "people who can't possibly be regular Techdirt readers" and only quoted the "Techdirt readers" part of it.

      Yep, that certainly tells me you're honest and trustworthy.

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

      • identicon
        Anonymous Coward, 12 Oct 2016 @ 1:18pm

        Re: Re: Mikes nighttime eyemask is Hillary's buttcheeks...

        Well, thank you very much for the complement, however the addition of the removed fragment doesn't change the meaning of the quote (i.e. Mike is a Hillary Clinton Supporter).

        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

        • icon
          sorrykb (profile), 12 Oct 2016 @ 4:55pm

          Re: Re: Re: Mikes nighttime eyemask is Hillary's buttcheeks...

          thank you very much for the complement

          The word you want there is "compliment".

          "Complement" means "something that completes something else or makes it better"; e.g.,
          "Your bizarre insults are the perfect complement to your colossal ignorance."

          reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

          • identicon
            Anonymous Coward, 13 Oct 2016 @ 8:01pm

            Re: Re: Re: Re: Mikes nighttime eyemask is Hillary's buttcheeks...

            I never claimed to be an oracle of knowledge with regard to huge statues, but I do know when someone attempts to leverage a typo to distract from the fact they find the truth bizarre.

            reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

        • identicon
          Thad, 12 Oct 2016 @ 5:12pm

          Re: Re: Re: Mikes nighttime eyemask is Hillary's buttcheeks...

          No, it's just that in addition to being dishonest, you also don't understand sentence structure.

          reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

          • identicon
            Anonymous Coward, 13 Oct 2016 @ 8:12pm

            Re: Re: Re: Re: Mikes nighttime eyemask is Hillary's buttcheeks...

            Well then, feel free to demonstrate how the omitted portion somehow renders Mike a non-supporter of Hillary Clinton (an easy enough thing for him to come right out and just say, that he will not come right out and just say).

            reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • icon
    sorrykb (profile), 11 Oct 2016 @ 3:33pm

    Actually, no, he referred to "people who can't possibly be regular techdirt readers"... psst. He meant you.

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • identicon
    Jeri, 11 Oct 2016 @ 10:59pm

    Jerifusina@gmail.com

    NBC IS THE MOST DISGUSTING SATANIC PIECE OF SHIT THAT EVER WAS. And I emphasize was because they will soon be filing for bankruptcy. I say boycott nbc.

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • identicon
    John Mayor, 12 Oct 2016 @ 1:43am

    THE POT AND THE KETTLE, AND GLASS HOUSES

    But!... equally bad, is the abmysmal failure of these Media giants to even provide a Clog window in their respective sites, to facilitate Free Expression on blogs offered up! And so... although I can sympathize and empathize about the Media being denied their Digital Human Rights, I'm equally disgusted with the fact that these would have no, or little regard for their respective audiences' Digital Human Rights!
    .
    Please!... no emails!

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • identicon
      Anonymous Coward, 12 Oct 2016 @ 2:52am

      Re: THE POT AND THE KETTLE, AND GLASS HOUSES

      Not enough useless hyphens. You get a double F minus.

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

      • identicon
        John Mayor, 12 Oct 2016 @ 9:53pm

        Re: Re: THE POT AND THE KETTLE, AND GLASS HOUSES

        A "double F"?... "minus"?
        .
        Look!... perv!... I'm not gay! And!... I don't know who your "partner double" is for your "double F" offer... but, if all you can provide is a "minus", then why even bother flirting!
        .
        Please!... no emails!

        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 12 Oct 2016 @ 6:25am

    Popcorn at the rady

    As a non US person I thank the commentators for their entertainment as it implodes into a pro / anti Trump match.
    I especially like the frequent use of the terms left / liberal.
    From my Western European standpoint, Republicans and Democrats are both right wing, its all perspective. If there was only 1 tiny policy difference between the 2 main US parties there would doubtless still be massive partisanship.

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 12 Oct 2016 @ 6:42am

    " If there was only 1 tiny policy difference between the 2 main US parties "


    there are many HUGE differences
    our politics has the best differences
    no one has better differences than our politicians

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • icon
    sorrykb (profile), 12 Oct 2016 @ 8:55am

    Re^infinity

    The comments on that post got pretty ridiculous

    Ridiculous? Who're you callin' ridiculous...

    P.S. What was this article about again?

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • identicon
    John Mayor, 12 Oct 2016 @ 9:30pm

    ANGELINA JOLIE SLAPPs PEREZ HILTON

    In keeping with Mike's theme here... I ran into the ensuing just after midnight!...
    .
    http://www.independent.ie/style/celebrity/celebrity-news/angelina-jolie-to-sue-perez-hilton-for-div orce-coverage-35120713.html
    .
    To end... although I don't view Perez Hilton as a true representative of the "media"-- as such!-- I found the dialogue intriguing! And I am curious to know what AJ is specifically concerned about!
    .
    Please!... no emails!

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]


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