Paris, France To Sue Fox News For Being Fox News

from the you'll-get-used-to-them dept

I was told a long time ago that you can really get to know people in times of crises. Adversity doesn't make a person, it reveals that person. Insert another cliche about this stuff here. The point is that when things get dire, people revert to who they are at their most basic. In America, for instance, the home of the brave and the land of the free suddenly became the home of the surveilled and the land of security theater after 9/11. France's recent experience with the plague of Islamic extremism has revealed ups, but has also revealed them to be not nearly so in favor of free speech as they like to claim when it comes to speech they don't like. That trend appears to be continuing as Paris, France claims they are going to file a lawsuit against Fox News for making laughably ridiculous claims about so-called "Muslim-only" communities in the city.

Fox News ran multiple reports describing areas of Paris (and England) that were governed by Sharia law and off-limits to non-Muslims. The network has since apologized for making "regrettable errors on air regarding the Muslim population in Europe—particularly with regard to England and France."

"This applies especially to discussions of so-called 'no-go zones,' areas where non-Muslims allegedly aren't allowed in, and police supposedly won't go," anchor Julie Banderas said in one on-air apology. "To be clear, there is no formal designation of these zones in either country, and no credible information to support the assertion there are specific areas in these countries that exclude individuals based solely on their religion."
Oh, Paris. So naive. A cable news organization fear-mongering their way through a horrifically inaccurate report where the facts are fiction isn't something to get upset about. As best as I can tell, that's the entire point of cable news. Truth doesn't fill a twenty-four hour news cycle, after all. Beyond that, what are they going to sue for? Inaccurate reporting that has since been corrected on-air? If that was grounds for a lawsuit, the lawsuits against cable news networks would be ongoing through eternity.

Even listening to the city's officials doesn't make this seem any less petty.
Paris Mayor Anne Hidalgo is planning to sue Fox News for its inaccurate reports on Muslim "no go zones," she told CNN's Christiane Amanpour on Tuesday.

"When we're insulted, and when we've had an image, then I think we'll have to sue, I think we'll have to go to court, in order to have these words removed," Hidalgo told Amanpour in an interview. "The image of Paris has been prejudiced, and the honor of Paris has been prejudiced."
Think about this for just a moment. Filing a lawsuit against someone for the crime of insulting your honor doesn't sound like it could come from a proponent of free speech, does it? The very thing that was attacked in France is now being attacked by France, though obviously with litigious weapons instead of firearms. This isn't to suggest any moral equivalence between the two, of course, only that free speech is one of those areas where you're either for or against. Being for something with qualifications means you're not for it at all. And, fortunately for Fox News, the freedom of speech includes the freedom to be idiotically wrong.

Filed Under: anne hidalgo, cable news, fox news, france, free speech, lawsuit, paris
Companies: fox


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  1. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 20 Jan 2015 @ 11:25am

    Im pro free-speech, but I am all for this. Not sure the angle, but false advertisting is where I would like it to go.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  2. identicon
    BG1, 20 Jan 2015 @ 11:39am

    Oh, Please

    As if there aren't places in the US where some ethnicity or other isn't wanted and there's an unwritten rule for certain people to stay out.

    Just another Fox bashing story. The real news is that there isn't any news here. Anyone who has been to Paris or London knows that there are heavy ethnic minority sections of the city that most non-ethnics would do well to stay out of.

    Stupid article.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  3. icon
    jlaprise (profile), 20 Jan 2015 @ 11:41am

    This is why Fox so strongly and publicly retracted their story. Someone in their international legal department realized that they were potentially on the hook for a sizable libel or defamation legal action. The rules in Europe are different and it would be very bad for Fox's public image to be successfully prosecuted.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  4. identicon
    H. Rap Scallion, 20 Jan 2015 @ 11:44am

    Thank you very much for this informative primer on French defamation law.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  5. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 20 Jan 2015 @ 11:46am

    I guess they could always go back to duels for insults and questions of honor.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  6. icon
    Coyne Tibbets (profile), 20 Jan 2015 @ 11:48am

    Fox: Lawsuit magnet

    Not a surprise, that they're being sued for this.

    What is a surprise is that they haven't been sued before this. One case escapes me at the moment, but the other one...

    The one where the Fox affiliate changed the chant for the protest group, was very malicious. Absence of malice wouldn't protect them in that case, and I really hoped the organizers of the demonstration would sue on behalf of all the participants.

    Basically, Fox (and it's affiliates) is getting so sloppy with its advocacy that it's turning into a lawsuit magnet.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  7. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 20 Jan 2015 @ 11:48am

    Truth doesn't fill a twenty-four hour news cycle, after all.


    Actually it can, it just requires more effort than people are willing to expend for TV. The sort of broadness, variety and depth that would be needed just aren't seen as cost effective.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  8. icon
    sorrykb (profile), 20 Jan 2015 @ 11:49am

    A cable news organization fear-mongering their way through a horrifically inaccurate report where the facts are fiction isn't something to get upset about. As best as I can tell, that's the entire point of cable news.

    The fact that it's normal doesn't mean we shouldn't be upset. Maybe we shouldn't be surprised, but that's no reason not to be angry.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  9. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 20 Jan 2015 @ 11:52am

    Re:

    I would guess they might also fall under the category of inciting hate crimes under European laws. It's illegal to deny the holocaust in a lot of European countries, because of the racism and propaganda involved in those false claims.

    This story is built along similar motives, except promoting bigotry and racism towards Muslims instead of Jews.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  10. identicon
    Don, 20 Jan 2015 @ 11:53am

    No suit -duel!

    Darn someone beat me to it: Yes, a duel between Anne Hidalgo and Roger Ailes. Water balloons at ten paces.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  11. identicon
    Lawrence D’Oliveiro, 20 Jan 2015 @ 11:53am

    “Truth doesn't fill a twenty-four hour news cycle, after all.”

    May I recommend you try watching Al Jazeera? They certainly do a better job of it than any US news network.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  12. icon
    usul_of_arakis (profile), 20 Jan 2015 @ 11:58am

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  13. icon
    Dan J. (profile), 20 Jan 2015 @ 12:00pm

    Moral equivalence?

    The very thing that was attacked in France is now being attacked by France, though obviously with litigious weapons instead of firearms. This isn't to suggest any moral equivalence between the two, of course, only that free speech is one of those areas where you're either for or against.

    Why wouldn't you suggest a moral equivalence? In both cases, the assailant uses force to impose silence on the victim, justified by the claim that they're specially privileged in being authorized to use said force. One claims a special disposition from a deity, the other is a member of a group (government) which they claim has special disposition. Granted, one tends to use deadly force a bit quicker but I'd call that a difference in degree of application, not a fundamental difference in kind.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  14. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 20 Jan 2015 @ 12:06pm

    France's recent experience with the plague of Islamic extremism has revealed ups, but has also revealed them to be not nearly so in favor of free speech as they like to claim when it comes to speech they don't like.

    The current wave in France extends much further than to just the arrest of a solitary comedian.

    French Rein In Speech Backing Acts of Terror”, by Doreen Carvajal and Alan Cowell, New York Times, Jan 15, 2015
     . . . All told, up to 100 people are under investigation for making or posting comments that support or try to justify terrorism, according to Cédric Cabut, a prosecutor in Bourgoin-Jallieu, in the east of France. The French news media have reported about cases in Paris, Toulouse, Nice, Strasbourg, Orléans and elsewhere in France. . . .

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  15. identicon
    bricko, 20 Jan 2015 @ 12:08pm

    List of NO GO zones

    List of NO GO Zones......yes they are real

    Whole article listing them and what goes on.

    http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/5128/france-no-go-zones

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  16. icon
    sorrykb (profile), 20 Jan 2015 @ 12:08pm

    Re:

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  17. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 20 Jan 2015 @ 12:11pm

    the freedom of speech includes the freedom to be idiotically wrong.
    But it does not include the freedom to maliciously spread falsehoods, which is what happened here.

    Fox said things it knew (or should have known) to be false, for the sole purpose of driving ratings. They should be held accountable for it.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  18. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 20 Jan 2015 @ 12:14pm

    Re:

    Further accurate new reporting does not attract most people, whereas hyperbole and scare stories bring them in in droves.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  19. identicon
    David Longfellow, 20 Jan 2015 @ 12:15pm

    Anyone who thinks Fox's story is not accurate...

    ... has never been to Paris.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  20. icon
    Uriel-238 (profile), 20 Jan 2015 @ 12:17pm

    Der should be a lawr!

    If we're going to regulate free speech at all, there should be a way for us to regulate alleged sources of factual information so as they have to actually be accurate. Kinda like our protections from libel and false advertising.

    If we're not going to regulate free speech (or do so minimally). I want us to be teaching our kindergarteners that people lie and that includes billboards and newspapers and the nice cop who claims to only want to direct traffic and rescue cats. And the president and the mayor and even me the teacher telling you this right now. Trust no one, chillums. Trust no one.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  21. icon
    Uriel-238 (profile), 20 Jan 2015 @ 12:25pm

    NO GO zones

    So has France devolved to a confederacy or an alliance with its own counties?

    How do these zones still have power or plumbing or any other infrastructure?

    How do these zones still get commodities without massive tariffs?

    There's an old rule of republics and nations that goes like this: "My house, my rules." Does France not have sufficient military resources to enforce its own monopoly of force?

    (Granted, we still have counties in Utah where polygyny is the accepted norm, and that's because the influence of the Fundamentalist Mormons is expansive enough to control the local government and infrastructure. They also just sit there and tolerate it when the feds occasionally come in and make an example of a family.)

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  22. icon
    connermac725 (profile), 20 Jan 2015 @ 12:31pm

    There is no Fox News

    they are entertainment not news per their own descrption

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  23. icon
    Uriel-238 (profile), 20 Jan 2015 @ 12:38pm

    The greatest force wins.

    Regardless of whatever other justification, be it nationality or faith or just cause, might prevails in the natural order. The duty of a state is to enforce its own monopoly on might, thus imposing a universal set of rules for all who live in its domain.

    Ideally, those rules will be fair and present a modicum of equality to all, but often they are not. But it is not the will of God that imposes law, but the biggest hammer (or most hammers -- whatever prevents anyone else from brandishing their hammer).

    The hammer doesn't care about morality. All morality does is determine if some people who agree with that morality like the terms in which the hammer is used.

    In this case, the hammer only likes certain kinds of speech and has no respect for speech with which it disagrees. It can call it free speech all it wants, but since the hammer is being used on people for speaking, it's not free speech.

    The hammer has to choose to let everyone speak without prosecution before there is actual free speech.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  24. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 20 Jan 2015 @ 12:42pm

    Re:

    the freedom of speech includes the freedom to be idiotically wrong.
    But it does not include the freedom to maliciously spread falsehoods...
    Oh, naturally it does not. Thus, the Catholic Inquisition's injunction against Galileo Galilei——
    to abstain completely from teaching or defending this doctrine and opinion or from discussing it... to abandon completely... the opinion that the sun stands still at the center of the world and the earth moves, and henceforth not to hold, teach, or defend it in any way whatever, either orally or in writing.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  25. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 20 Jan 2015 @ 12:42pm

    Re: Oh, Please

    "As if there aren't places in the US where some ethnicity or other isn't wanted and there's an unwritten rule for certain people to stay out."

    Yes, but many people dislike whites-only policies.

    That *is* what you were referring to right? How whites steer non-whites into ghettos, gerrymander districts to enforce quasi-official segregation, get all uppity when people complain about cop-on-not-white murder, and so on?

    If that's *not* what you are referring to... ummmm, citation, please.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  26. icon
    GeeC (profile), 20 Jan 2015 @ 12:47pm

    Re: NO GO zones

    The US doesn't have the military resources to respond to areas like this. There are places in Michigan like this. Not to mention various areas all across the US that you wouldn't dare enter if your skin tone didn't match those who live there.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  27. identicon
    DCL, 20 Jan 2015 @ 12:53pm

    How long untill....

    Fox invokes its 'right to be forgotten' and hopes the whole thing blow over??

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  28. icon
    Uriel-238 (profile), 20 Jan 2015 @ 12:54pm

    The Church was NEVER an advocate of freedom of speech.

    Every concession that the Church ever made (that being the Roman Catholic Church) has been by force of consequence, usually when the rest of the world found the Church's position absurd and unpalatable.

    From they beginning, the Church was resistant to the dissemination of information to the laity. Knowledge was their own prevue, and the duty of commoners was blind obedience.

    Freedom of Speech comes from an era where the people are supposed to be empowered to conduct and govern themselves, primarily because we cannot trust anyone else to justly govern. Hence the need for dissenting opinions to be heard, even when offensive. (They always are.)

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  29. icon
    John Fenderson (profile), 20 Jan 2015 @ 12:54pm

    It can

    Truth doesn't fill a twenty-four hour news cycle, after all.


    Only because they choose not to fill it with truth. There's certainly enough truth that is important enough to tell everyone about to fill a 24 hour news cycle. The problem is that the vast majority of it isn't salacious or frightening, and therefore won't boost ratings.

    If that was grounds for a lawsuit, the lawsuits against cable news networks would be ongoing through eternity.


    We can but dream...

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  30. icon
    LeeJS (profile), 20 Jan 2015 @ 12:57pm

    Not in the rest of the world

    Fiction may be the point of US cable news but elsewhere in the world we take our news outlets slightly more seriously. The BBC manage to cover world events instead of hyperbole. You know, like a news channel.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  31. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 20 Jan 2015 @ 1:04pm

    Re: The Church was NEVER an advocate of freedom of speech.

    Every concession that the Church ever made...
    Vatican defends Pope after punch remark”, by Greg Botelho and Daniel Burke, CNN, Jan 16, 2015
     . . . The Vatican later responded to a CNN question about the "punch" remark specifically.

    In an email, Vatican spokesman Thomas Rosica told CNN that "the Pope's expression is in no way intended to be interpreted" as somehow justifying last week's violence, and he pointed out that "the Pope has spoken out clearly against the terror and violence that occurred in Paris and in other parts of the world." . . .

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  32. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 20 Jan 2015 @ 1:05pm

    Re: Re: Oh, Please

    6 of one & a half dozen of another.

    Every race on the planet is just as racist as the next. The entire animal kingdom is biological proof of that. Sure there will be exceptions... but throwing those up to have discourse is childish and ignorant.

    People by default afraid of what they do not understand and will easily become antagonistic to it. This is the very reason that multiculturalism does not and will never work.

    Go around the world... racism, bigotry, the dregs, slums, favela's, ghetto's, hovels, shit shacks, and dirt shacks all house the worst of humanity the same as every palace, castle, penthouse, beachfront, and mansion. to varying degrees and locations every race has suffered at the hands of another races bigotry.

    Your racism against white people is no different than white people's racism against non-whites. People are going to group up and will choose arbitrary lines to draw on the map. People will fight over their damn sports teams.

    You are part of the problem... not the solution. Please stop eating the shit your master knocks off the table and into your bowl.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  33. identicon
    John Nemesh, 20 Jan 2015 @ 1:12pm

    Free speech DOES have limits!

    Even in the US, the 1st Amendment does not give you the right to libel and slander. It does not give you the right to yell "Fire!" in a theater (unless there really IS a fire, of course).

    Paris has EVERY right to sue Fox News. They put forth an erroneous statement that is considered libelous. They INTENTIONALLY put out BAD NEWS, devoid of ANY facts, and this news reflected poorly on a number of cities that were mentioned. All Paris has to do is show that those comments caused MATERIAL HARM (which is tough, but they can probably do it), and they will win the case.

    I believe that everyone has a right to spew whatever lies they want, but when those lies MATERIALLY and negatively impact someone else, that's where your rights END!

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  34. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 20 Jan 2015 @ 1:12pm

    Re: Oh, Please

    Funny, every other news outlet (except fox) is giving this coverage.

    Stupid fox and BG1

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  35. identicon
    John Nemesh, 20 Jan 2015 @ 1:13pm

    Re: Oh, Please

    That is different from having a neighborhood be under "Sharia Law" and having outsiders "forbidden from entry"! By a country MILE! (or Kilometer)

    This wasn't news, this wasn't opinion, this was SENSATIONALISM at it's WORST, and Fox SHOULD be punished!

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  36. identicon
    jackn, 20 Jan 2015 @ 1:14pm

    Re: Re: Re: Oh, Please

    I don't think you know what race means. you're rant is childish and ignorant

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  37. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 20 Jan 2015 @ 1:18pm

    Re: There is no Fox News

    may I remind you

    fox NEWS
    FAIR and BALANCED.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  38. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 20 Jan 2015 @ 1:18pm

    I call what fox did inciting violence.......imagine a massive tragedy and a massive emotional public, what would a speech like that have done, they were playing the odds that people were emotional enough to cheerlead this and justify in their own minds the unlawfull manipulation a massive media company has on the minds of many, well that last bit is my take on it, not necassarily what everyone is thinking............they risked a bet in being inciters and succeding, and the most punishment they ever get is them voluntarilly give a shallow apology...........i dont think this is about freespeech personally in what ive so far read, i see it about unjustly telling x amount of individuals a lie............x being proportionate to being how much harm they've done..........and most certainly not limited to fox.........if anything should be in any sort of curicular, the dangers of masse manipulation should be one of them, what better way to prepare them for the "real world"

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  39. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 20 Jan 2015 @ 1:20pm

    Re: Free speech DOES have limits!

    It does not give you the right to yell "Fire!" in a theater...

    Three Generations of a Hackneyed Apologia for Censorship Are Enough”, by Ken White, Popehat, Sept 19, 2012
    Holmes' Full-Throated Approval For Suppression of Wartime Dissent

    Holmes' famous quote comes in the context of a series of early 1919 Supreme Court decisions in which he endorsed government censorship of wartime dissent — dissent that is now clearly protected by subsequent First Amendment authority.

    The three cases in question arose from socialist criticism of conscription during World War One. . . .

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  40. icon
    Chris ODonnell (profile), 20 Jan 2015 @ 1:27pm

    Re:

    Fox getting sued by the "socialist" French would be badge of honor worn proudly by their viewership.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  41. icon
    Josh in CharlotteNC (profile), 20 Jan 2015 @ 1:30pm

    Re:

    There's that saying about ignoring anything said before "however" or "but" that applies.

    Either you're for free speech, or you're not. The answer to speech that is wrong is not a lawsuit, it is more speech.

    Fox News can say whatever the heck it wants to. And everyone else is free to say how wrong Fox News is about whatever idiotic thing they just said - as is happening already in this case.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  42. icon
    John Fenderson (profile), 20 Jan 2015 @ 1:31pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Oh, Please

    That's a bit harsh (although not totally wrong). I would have said it differently: he is oversimplifying a complex sociological effect to the point of being misleading.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  43. icon
    Dark Helmet (profile), 20 Jan 2015 @ 1:56pm

    Re: Not in the rest of the world

    "The BBC manage to cover world events instead of hyperbole. You know, like a news channel."

    How is THAT entertaining? Sounds boring....

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  44. icon
    Gwiz (profile), 20 Jan 2015 @ 2:08pm

    Re: Re: NO GO zones

    There are places in Michigan like this.


    Really? Where?

    A few years ago I was a satellite TV installer and worked all over SE Michigan. I've traveled pretty much all of lower Michigan and most of the UP throughout my life.

    Sure, there are areas where crime is more prevalent and you need to be a bit more alert, but I wouldn't call them "no go areas" and I've never seen *anywhere* in Michigan that the police are afraid to patrol.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  45. icon
    Stan (profile), 20 Jan 2015 @ 2:11pm

    Re: Re: There is no Fox News

    FOX News:

    We decide, you concur.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  46. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 20 Jan 2015 @ 2:16pm

    Re: Re: Re: NO GO zones

    ... and I've never seen *anywhere* in Michigan that the police are afraid to patrol.
    You ever been out on Lake Michigan during a winter storm? 'Cause I'll tell you, the state line is not exactly at the water's edge.

    And then there's Whitefish Point...

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  47. identicon
    Baron von Robber, 20 Jan 2015 @ 2:21pm

    Re: Re: There is no Fox News

    Comedy is one form of entertainment.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  48. icon
    Richard (profile), 20 Jan 2015 @ 2:23pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Oh, Please

    Look carefully at the article - this is not about race this is about religion.

    Islam is not a race - there are muslims of every race and in every race where there are muslims there are also Christians, Buddhists, Sikhs, Hindus, atheists and agnostics.

    Now the original Fox report was really really wildly exaggerated but something a bit like it does exist on a small scale and is certainly an aspiration of some muslims.

    see http://www.secularism.org.uk/blog/2012/03/the-rise-of-sharia-in-the-west

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  49. identicon
    John Nemesh, 20 Jan 2015 @ 2:25pm

    Re: Re: Re: NO GO zones

    I bet you also never went into a "zone" where the State Laws were suspended and "Sharia Law" was enforced by religious police, either!

    I don't know how some fools can defend Fox's lies! Bending the truth is one thing, but these guys twist it like a pretzel and salt it with a sprinkle of hate speech and then have the GALL to call it "News"!

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  50. identicon
    John Nemesh, 20 Jan 2015 @ 2:30pm

    Re:

    They are promoting their agenda of fear and xenophobia...which on it's own is wholly out of line with the principles America was founded on. They are making Muslims the "boogeyman" that everyone needs to fear, and which "honest, hardworking Americans" need to push out of our country. This particular assertion that Islam is "taking over" cities in Europe is designed to do nothing less than undermine the credibility of the governments of the EU and get "red blooded" (read "red voting") Americans to get angry and demand that everyone who is slightly different from their ideal (white skinned) to be deported. It's disgusting in the extreme that some choose to defend this.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  51. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 20 Jan 2015 @ 2:31pm

    Re: Re:

    No, in this case lawsuit seems fine.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  52. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 20 Jan 2015 @ 2:32pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Oh, Please

    Agree, but my way is more fun (and if you look, you might see I used his own words to be harsh).

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  53. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 20 Jan 2015 @ 2:34pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Oh, Please

    No, you are over complicating a relatively simple issue.

    The reason why we like to 'pretend' that they are complicated is because once we are honest about things, we are then able to see our own vices and evil reflected in others. Humanity hates nothing more than for their wrongs to be revealed. We all keep secrets and lie to each other because we know, for a fact KNOW, that others will be assail us with their bigotry. We form groups to co-miserate with each other in hopes of comfort... we flee from our ignorance and bigotry doing this.

    Geo vs Geo, Politic vs Politic, Color vs Color its all the same. We hate it when the other side reveals our hypocrisies and soon we shall war. The Cycle has never ended and the frozen fear that lurks in everyone's heart gives birth to more of the same.

    Until people unshackle themselves from their dogma and prejudices we will be locked in this cycle until something capable of wiping up all out shows up.

    Every evil agenda has tricks to advance their ideas. Is a white person born somewhere in Africa but immigrates to America an "African-American"? Why are Russians not Asian? Why would the term "White Power" be inherently racist while terms such as "Black Power" and "La Raza" are not? The media at large plays us all for the fools we willingly make ourselves to be. The Politicians like Bush and Obama feed on the stupidity that has entrenched America to the point that the only way back to a Nation of Liberty sadly appears to be paved in fresh red blood. All the while our bigotries are drummed up against each other to a feverish pitch as liberties are removed and spirits broken and the once free slaves are enslaved again by their VERY OWN DOING!!!

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  54. icon
    gorehound (profile), 20 Jan 2015 @ 2:34pm

    Fox is a lying far right propaganda machine..........fueling hate thru the World.All they do is to get people to hate other people.And they lie all the time.
    France and UK should ban them....then maybe other Nations will join .

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  55. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 20 Jan 2015 @ 2:37pm

    Re: Re:

    Defamation seems to be a good claim here though. Fox News is reporting false statements that could be argued to have an effect on tourism to Paris.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  56. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 20 Jan 2015 @ 2:38pm

    I think they may have just simply confused muslims with gypsies. iirc, Paris did had a gypsi ghetto a few years ago. Dont know if they either deported them, let them loose or are still being isolated but i havent heared about this story for a while.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  57. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 20 Jan 2015 @ 2:40pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Oh, Please

    "Look carefully at the article - this is not about race this is about religion."

    We use terms like religion, race, politics... they all devolve to one thing "excuses". People in power use these excuses to talk people into donning their shackles. Asking people with forked tongues to give up their liberty for scraps from the table. Once the people where those shackles they are dirty pawns of their politics, or their religion, or their race... call it what you want. But at the end of the day... someone wants more than their fair share... and they sit and scheme in the dark for their excuses to get it.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  58. identicon
    PRMan, 20 Jan 2015 @ 2:40pm

    Re: Re:

    False speech shouldn't be allowed, but the problem is who gets to decide what is "false speech"?

    This is why speech needs to be free, since very often the person with the truth was at one point the only person in the world to have believed it (Galileo, Newton, Einstein, etc.).

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  59. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 20 Jan 2015 @ 2:43pm

    Re: List of NO GO zones

    The article you cited is from an organization that has been criticized for being conservative and associated with anti-Muslim conservatives.

    Do you have another source you'd like the share that we might be able to trust?

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  60. identicon
    Agonistes, 20 Jan 2015 @ 2:49pm

    Is it just me or are most posts here hypocritical to the Nth power?

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  61. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 20 Jan 2015 @ 3:04pm

    Re:

    But it does not include the freedom to maliciously spread falsehoods,

    What happens when some Cristian fundamentalist gains power, and declare evolution to be falsehoods, and the work of the devil?

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  62. icon
    Richard (profile), 20 Jan 2015 @ 3:04pm

    Re: Re:

    A lot of myth and nonsense is talked about Galileo.

    It is simply not true that the church blindly opposed the heliocentric theory and persecuted anyone who proposed it.

    From wikipedia:
    In 1533, Johann Widmanstetter, secretary to Pope Clement VII, explained Copernicus' heliocentric system to the Pope and two cardinals. The Pope was so pleased that he gave Widmanstetter a valuable gift


    So heliocentrism had ben widely debated in the church and widely approved for 80 years before the Galileo incident.

    The problem with Galileo was that he wrote a book in which the a foolish character was made to argue against heliocentrism and some of the things he said made that character identifiable with the Pope.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  63. icon
    cypherspace (profile), 20 Jan 2015 @ 3:20pm

    Re: Oh, Please

    Are you high or something? Even if Tim was dismissive of Fox, he came out on the side of free speech.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  64. icon
    John Fenderson (profile), 20 Jan 2015 @ 3:24pm

    Re:

    "Not sure the angle, but false advertisting is where I would like it to go."

    Here's the angle that makes sense to me: fraud. The are selling a product that they claim is journalism. For something to be considered journalism, it must not contain intentional untruths. When a "news" organization lies in its reports, then it is engaging in fraud.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  65. icon
    cypherspace (profile), 20 Jan 2015 @ 3:25pm

    If there are any ACLU interns who lurk on this site, I humbly suggest that your employers offer their services to Fox News / News Corp pro bono in this case.

    Maybe then FOX would drop the whole persecution complex with regards to the ACLU not defending Christians, conservatives or the like.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  66. identicon
    Nic, 20 Jan 2015 @ 3:35pm

    I'm of the belief false news should be punishable. What Fox News did borders on libel and that's not protected speech. They retracted their statements on this so that's at least that but I believe a fine should be in order for cases like this (I know, I know, Supreme Court has ruled in favor of news organizations lying, doesn't mean I agree with them)

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  67. icon
    Uriel-238 (profile), 20 Jan 2015 @ 3:47pm

    Hypocritical to the Nth power

    Cite specific examples please.

    Otherwise, yeah, it's just you.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  68. icon
    Uriel-238 (profile), 20 Jan 2015 @ 3:49pm

    I think we've seen the reliability of SCOTUS for sound judgements

    ...or rather their lack thereof in the Hobby Lobby judgement.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  69. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 20 Jan 2015 @ 4:00pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Oh, Please


    We use terms like religion, race, politics... they all devolve to one thing


    They are not all the same. You can choose your religion and your politics. You cannot choose your race.

    This fact is what makes racism so objectionable.

    That is why we must never confuse criticism of a set of religious or political opinions with racism.

    If we do that then it enables obnoxious political programs to hide behind a convenient smokescreen.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  70. icon
    Mike Masnick (profile), 20 Jan 2015 @ 4:02pm

    Re: Free speech DOES have limits!

    Even in the US, the 1st Amendment does not give you the right to libel and slander. It does not give you the right to yell "Fire!" in a theater (unless there really IS a fire, of course).


    Hackneyed and wrong:

    https://www.popehat.com/2012/09/19/three-generations-of-a-hackneyed-apologia-for-censorship-ar e-enough/

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  71. icon
    Uriel-238 (profile), 20 Jan 2015 @ 4:07pm

    Galileo as an example of free speech.

    ...Heliocentrism had [been] widely debated in the church and widely approved for 80 years before the Galileo incident.

    Except that didn't stop the sentence on Galileo to prevent him from writing about or discussing Copernican theory. Of course, the Church was such a big entity that it took centuries for a chain of neurons to fire from the fingertips to the brain and back again. So maybe the pope didn't know he knew he had long since accepted heliocentrism.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  72. icon
    Alien Rebel (profile), 20 Jan 2015 @ 4:15pm

    Re: Re: Oh, Please

    Lawsuits over speech are a bad idea. I'm hopeful though, that if FOX continues on its current trajectory they'll ultimately be forced to hand over their choice seating at press events to Comedy Central. Sorry, Heraldo, real reporters coming through, . .

    Off on a tangent, my ultimate fantasy would be to witness John Oliver get SCOTUS press credentials.
    --

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  73. icon
    JP Jones (profile), 20 Jan 2015 @ 4:20pm

    Re: Re:

    Unfortunately you'd have to find conclusive evidence that it was actually intentional. Cable news networks, for all their faults, have backed themselves into a corner that pretty much ensures common mistakes.

    Right now news channels compete to see who can get a story "first." It's all about rapid reporting, and also sensational reporting. This encourages news networks to show stories that will grab attention and do it as soon as possible.

    Guess what? As speed increases, accuracy tends to decrease. And when you have a bias towards the sensational rather than the mundane (and most events in the world are mundane) this tends to skew the accuracy even more. It shouldn't surprise anyone that cable news networks have horrible accuracy and are usually biased. Heck there's numerous comedy shows dedicated to pointing out where they fail.

    I think it would be extremely difficult to prove they were intentionally lying, especially since they probably weren't. Through their "conservative" (in the political version of the word) lens, and at a rapid pace, it's likely they were fully convinced that their BS was true at the time. Once they were debunked (because the research came after the story, as usual) they issued a retraction.

    Sure, the retraction is largely useless. Heck, I'm still listening to my family explain how Obama went to Hawaii and forced a couple to cancel their wedding so he could play golf. It's wrong (or at least incredibly skewed) but such is shoot-from-the-hip reporting. But I doubt you'll see much traction on this in court.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  74. identicon
    Agonistes, 20 Jan 2015 @ 5:03pm

    I've yet to see any reason why one would trust the City of Paris in their motives more than Fox News. Just a quick Google on the subject brings up a lot of obvious BS coming from both camps.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  75. icon
    That One Guy (profile), 20 Jan 2015 @ 6:18pm

    Re: Re: There is no Fox News

    If anyone, person, business, or agency, feels that they need to remind you how 'fair' and 'balanced' they are... odds are good they are neither.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  76. identicon
    victor, 20 Jan 2015 @ 6:19pm

    No Go Zones nothing new

    A Paris mayor and the Liberal media for some reason are accusing fox news of making up "no go zones" which french and liberal media outlets have been reporting on since 2002 where muslims rule over 150 areas by sharia law in france which the police wont dare enter without heavy reinforcement. Hmmm....

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  77. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 20 Jan 2015 @ 7:39pm

    Re:

    Another to big to fail situation

    Although id be glad to be proven wrong in this case, and see that happen

    Something needs doing to the "to big to fail" in general

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  78. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 20 Jan 2015 @ 7:48pm

    Re: No Go Zones nothing new

    So they cant get their facts straight either way.......gotcha

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  79. icon
    Shel10 (profile), 20 Jan 2015 @ 8:32pm

    Insulted Honor!!! Get the Seconds to setup a time and place for the duel. Swords or Pistols!!!

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  80. identicon
    Floyd, 20 Jan 2015 @ 11:34pm

    No Go Zones are real

    Everyone knows there are No-Go Zones all over Europe, there have been many reports and studies about this.

    http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/5128/france-no-go-zones

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  81. icon
    PaulT (profile), 21 Jan 2015 @ 12:33am

    Re: Re: Re:

    "False speech shouldn't be allowed, but the problem is who gets to decide what is "false speech"?"

    I think claims about a city that are clearly lies to anyone who's set foot within 1000 miles of the place would be easily provable without needing to go into "who watches the watchers" territory.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  82. icon
    PaulT (profile), 21 Jan 2015 @ 12:36am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Oh, Please

    "Islam is not a race "

    Like the idiots who watch Fox news have any idea of this. Sikhs have been massacred in their own temple because they're too stupid to know the difference.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  83. icon
    PaulT (profile), 21 Jan 2015 @ 12:42am

    Re: Re: Not in the rest of the world

    Their even-handedness does tend to get readers of the Daily Fail and the like in a frothing rage occasionally, so there's that.

    But, of course, that's the problem with modern news cycles. Why broadcast the truth when lies are more entertaining? News and entertainment should be separate things. The BBC has things like Have I Got News For You and Mock The Week if you really need to be entertained by the news - keep it out of the actual news broadcasts.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  84. icon
    PaulT (profile), 21 Jan 2015 @ 12:44am

    Re: No Go Zones are real

    Strange, despite the "many" claim, you've simply repeated the exact same link that's been posted previously.

    Do any of you people have another source? You must have plenty since there's "many" studies, right?

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  85. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 21 Jan 2015 @ 1:20am

    Re: Re: Re:

    Authority may distrust science, but it absolutely hates satire.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  86. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 21 Jan 2015 @ 1:53am

    Funny how cable news never makes a big deal out of this 'alternate law' No-Go Zone.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  87. icon
    Richard (profile), 21 Jan 2015 @ 1:56am

    Re: Galileo as an example of free speech.

    Except that didn't stop the sentence on Galileo to prevent him from writing about or discussing Copernican theory.

    Well it didn't prevent Galileo from deliberately provoking the establishment for the purpose of massaging his own ego.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  88. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 21 Jan 2015 @ 2:26am

    Re: Re: No Go Zones are real

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  89. icon
    PaulT (profile), 21 Jan 2015 @ 3:17am

    Re: Re: Re: No Go Zones are real

    Hint: if you're reading something in the Daily Fail, it's usually either outright made up, or the truth is stretched to such ridiculous extremes that they might as well be. Fortunately, they usually bury the truth in the last couple of paragraphs to prevent the rest of us having to search around to far to debunk them.

    In this case, no, some dickhead preacher putting stickers on lampposts does not mean that they're actually enforced, legally or culturally:

    "Yesterday the leader of Waltham Forest Council, Chris Robbins, said: ‘As soon as we heard about these posters we worked over the weekend to take them all down."

    "People should not get the wrong idea about our borough because a handful of small-minded idiots, who do not live here, decide to deface our streets with ridiculous posters."

    In other words, some stickers were put up by some assholes passing through, the council took them down again. Our freedom is surely at peril! Please...

    Do you have anything other than an easily debunked article from 4 years ago from a source known for lying to its readers?

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  90. icon
    Niall (profile), 21 Jan 2015 @ 3:28am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Oh, Please

    Actually, when you regularly 'mistake' anyone with a certain 'look' or 'skin tone' as being part of a particular religion, then yes, racism is very much part of the mix.

    Similarly, if you mix in certain national identities (studied in Indonesia - must be a [secret] Muslim!) then that is bringing racism in.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  91. icon
    Niall (profile), 21 Jan 2015 @ 3:29am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Oh, Please

    I hope you don't mean because the Sikhs were too stupid - and mean the Fox-style viewers...

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  92. icon
    PaulT (profile), 21 Jan 2015 @ 3:47am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Oh, Please

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  93. icon
    art guerrilla (profile), 21 Jan 2015 @ 6:43am

    Re: Re:

    *OUCH*
    johann, your comments are consistently good-to-great, BUT, you've dropped the ball on this one, in that it HAS BEEN adjudicated (i *think* -if i'm remembering correctly- in the trial where the fox news reporters had done actual, real, useful reporting on BGH in milk, and they were suing fox for firing them over TRUE REPORTING; and the judge 'found' that FALSE REPORTING was NOT 'illegal', or a sort of fraud, it was simply -you know- infotainment) that so-called 'news' orgs are NOT held to any kind of 'true/false' standards...

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  94. icon
    harbingerofdoom (profile), 21 Jan 2015 @ 7:11am

    Re: Re: Re: Re:

    i cant help but think that had this been any network other than fox, it would have been little more than a blip on the radar.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  95. identicon
    Baron von Robber, 21 Jan 2015 @ 7:23am

    Re:

    Has the ACLU ever done work on behalf of somebody over something outside the United States?

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  96. icon
    PaulT (profile), 21 Jan 2015 @ 7:28am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    Quite possibly. Fox tends to have 3 separate groups of people working to spread their stories - those who believe them, those who debunk them and those who mock them and their viewers for being such morons. This guarantees them a certain amount of coverage - which unfortunately probably leads them to act in a certain way to get the free coverage from the second two groups.

    Most other networks (US and otherwise) don't have the clear bias or tendency to do outright idiotic things, so don't get noticed as much.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  97. identicon
    Matthew A. Sawtell, 21 Jan 2015 @ 7:31am

    Ah yes... the Denis Leary 'scary neighborhood' scenario...

    ... going to be interesting if that sketch makes into the case, or the one from Dave Chappelle, if it happens.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTobHOyLvRU

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  98. identicon
    wayout, 21 Jan 2015 @ 7:32am

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  99. icon
    John Fenderson (profile), 21 Jan 2015 @ 7:40am

    Re: Re: Re:

    Oh, yes, I'm well aware of that ruling. I wasn't claiming that what I would like to see is possible, only that it would be reasonable, make sense, and not unduly violate anyone's free speech rights.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  100. icon
    John Fenderson (profile), 21 Jan 2015 @ 9:26am

    Re:

    Well, first, WorldNetDaily isn't anything remotely close to a reliable source. Nonetheless, the article that you've linked to to imply that the Fox story was correct includes this statement from Fox itself:

    To be clear, there is no formal designation of these zones in either country … and no credible information to support the assertion that there are specific areas in these countries that exclude individuals based solely on their religion


    So no, it doesn't appear to be the case that there is more to this story. What WND is citing to say there is is the fact that the French government has compiled and published a list of high crime areas. That's an entirely different thing.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  101. identicon
    Baron von Robber, 21 Jan 2015 @ 10:47am

    Re:

    LOL! WND. I have that page bookmarked as "Stonecold Fuck Nutjobs". :D

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  102. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 21 Jan 2015 @ 2:14pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Oh, Please

    Actually, when you regularly 'mistake' anyone with a certain 'look' or 'skin tone' as being part of a particular religion, then yes, racism is very much part of the mix.

    And when you don't then it isn't.

    And when you regularly mistake legitimate criticism of a set of beliefs that form the basis of a nasty totalitarian political program for racism then you cannot hope to oppose that program effectively.

    My sympathies are with the current victims of that program. These are people of the same race as the perpetrators but who have preserved their original religion in the face of 1400 years of persecution.

    The attacks that have been suffered in the west (even 9/11) are mere pinpricks compared to what these people have been through.

    Please see http://www.voiceofthecopts.org/

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  103. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 21 Jan 2015 @ 2:19pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: No Go Zones are real

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  104. icon
    Richard (profile), 21 Jan 2015 @ 2:32pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: No Go Zones are real

    Hint: if you're reading something in the Daily Fail, it's usually either outright made up, or the truth is stretched to such ridiculous extremes that they might as well be.

    Depends on the issue. I have often found the Daily Mail to be really good on a number of the issues around copyright and the extradition of hackers from the UK to the US.

    Don't make the mistake of rubbishing something purely because of the source.

    Hint - you don't approve when others do it.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  105. icon
    usul_of_arakis (profile), 21 Jan 2015 @ 2:46pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: No Go Zones are real

    Quote from the first link doesn't support

    "Before you get your backs up, let me inform you that the word sharia is mentioned only 3 times in the Quran, where it means moral and ethical guidance. Observant Muslims implement the moral and ethical guidelines of sharia in their life governing strictly PERSONAL religious matters such as diet, fasting, charity, prayer, pre-nuptial agreements, birth etc. without any side-effects because A, they are not forcing it in the public sphere and B) they are not using it as a parallel legal system in a non-Muslim environment."

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  106. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 21 Jan 2015 @ 3:17pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: No Go Zones are real

    The author of that link is a devout Muslim.

    In the section you quote he has identified the problem as being a particular sect of Islam (Wahhabism) rather than the religion as a whole.

    That is what you would expect from such a source - he is distancing his own particular beliefs from the problem - but he agrees that there is a problem.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  107. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 21 Jan 2015 @ 3:19pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: No Go Zones are real

    Further to that comment - he is saying that "proper Muslims" should not do what these people are doing. However he agrees that there are people doing this - which is the point here.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  108. icon
    usul_of_arakis (profile), 21 Jan 2015 @ 3:42pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: No Go Zones are real

    I agree, but what he is saying does not support the argument that "No Go Zones" are real.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  109. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 21 Jan 2015 @ 6:07pm

    Go France go! Fox has a right to free speech and it exercised that right. There was no prior restraint, so there is no problem. Now, Fox News motherf*cking lied through its goddamn teeth, and for that it's about time they were held accountable.

    Triple ditto the people who lie about global warming, claiming all kinds of 'facts' and insisting it's a conspiracy on the part of scientists motivated by (research!!! haw.. haw.. haw.. haw..) money. In this case FoxNews' and Forbes' and the WSJ's and other conservative media outlets' distortions on this emergency actually threaten civilization no less than if they had silos of nuclear bombs and were attempting to set them off.

    You're free to say what the hell ever you want, including shout 'no fire' in a crowded burning theater as is the case with the global warming emergency, and you know what? civilization is free to make you pay for the damage you caused by your speech.

    That's called 'accountability'.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  110. identicon
    Rudyard Holmbast, 22 Jan 2015 @ 12:14am

    CNN made basically the same exact claims as Fox News. But hey, this was just Fox News being Fox News. Good thing this blog reported on it, because we sure could use some hard-hitting, clever and, most of all, original reporting on how horrible Fox News is. You could make such ground-breaking stories a regular. You can also add a section containing "JON STEWART DESTROYS[X]" videos. Those can go next to your "the FCC is totally fucking awesome" net-neutrality "stories".

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  111. icon
    PaulT (profile), 22 Jan 2015 @ 12:51am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: No Go Zones are real

    So, no primary studies or official data, just blogs and third party claims? OK, let's have a look anyway.

    1. National Secular Society - seems to be a fairly rational source, so congrats on not just linking to an immediately laughable source this time. The speech itself is littered with silly hyperbole, but at least the central premise of the actual article is not an outright lie like your last link.

    However, I can't see anything in that article that suggests anything regarding "No Go Zones are real". I do see a problem with fundamental Muslim groups taking the law into their own hands among their own people, and rejecting the influence of local law enforcement. But this seems to be more a case of Muslims "looking after their own" and not going outside for help, rather than a place police fear to tread. There's many groups - Christian and otherwise - you can say the same about. There was a bad area in the town I grew up where nobody wanted to go, but it was the council estate where the local (mostly white) thugs and criminal elements lived, not the part of town where the Pakistanis had moved in. What's changed apart from the creed and ethnicity of the people?

    Interesting article, but I fail to see how it proves anything.

    2. Oh dear.

    "Faith Freedom International accepts articles that are related to Islam. We do not publish articles in favor or against any other religion."

    This appears to be some Islamophobic blog, littered with bloggers from the rabidly right-wing American blogosphere, so not objective. The article is about Europe but directly quotes UKIP and Breitbart as if they're reliable sources, fails to go into any detail and refuses to link to primary sources. I doubt the author of that article has ever set foot in Europe, let alone exposed himself to real facts. On top of that, the article isn't really saying anything, except repeating some known xenophobes verbatim.

    Even less credibility than the Daily Mail, I'm afraid.

    This is all you have? We can go on all day, but I need data. Facts. Evidence. Do you know what these are?

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  112. icon
    PaulT (profile), 22 Jan 2015 @ 1:02am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: No Go Zones are real

    "Depends on the issue."

    True. But, their habit of openly and obviously lying on some issues makes them a less than reliable source, even on issues where they are usually more balanced.

    "Hint - you don't approve when others do it."

    If it's done for the correct reasons, I do.

    That is, if someone were to say "I don't trust the BBC because they go to so many pains to appear neutral that they reject some more extreme viewpoints that deserve examination", then fair enough. I can disagree that they do this, or question what "extremist" actually means in this context, but I can accept that POV and provide another source. If they say "The BBC are leftist communist and ooga-booga!", that's not a valid reason, and I'd question the honesty of the person I'm talking to since their viewpoint is so skewed from reality.

    I have many examples of failure of the Mail to report accurately on issues to show why I do not trust them. Especially on these kinds of issues. If someone can show me why they are a trustworthy sources, I'd be happy to re-evaluate them, but given that the article linked is yet another example of an outright lie, proven within the article itself? Not a valid source.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  113. icon
    PaulT (profile), 22 Jan 2015 @ 1:08am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: No Go Zones are real

    "However he agrees that there are people doing this"

    Indeed. "This" being "looking after their own" and "practising their own sect's religious rules in an area outside of where it's normally practised". Which is something that many ethnic and religious groups do.

    Where in this is the proof that "no go zones" specifically to protect Muslims are commonplace as per the original claim? I don't see it.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  114. icon
    PaulT (profile), 22 Jan 2015 @ 1:10am

    Re:

    "CNN made basically the same exact claims as Fox News."

    I'd be interested to read that. Do you have a citation for your claim?

    "Those can go next to your "the FCC is totally fucking awesome" net-neutrality "stories"."

    Oh, you're existing in an alternative reality. Never mind.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  115. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 22 Jan 2015 @ 3:27am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: No Go Zones are real

    But this seems to be more a case of Muslims "looking after their own" and not going outside for help, rather than a place police fear to tread. There's many groups - Christian and otherwise - you can say the same about.

    I think you are going to have to supply some evidence for that last one.

    Also when "looking after their own" includes honour killings, forced marriages and FGM then it isn't something you can just dismiss.

    This appears to be some Islamophobic blog, littered with bloggers from the rabidly right-wing American blogosphere, so not objective.

    Well I am definitely not right wing - quite the opposite - and that is one reason why I find islam a worry. Make no mistake islam is the most right wing political movement going at present and if even the American right finds it distasteful that just makes it a bigger concern.

    FFI is run by an ex-muslim and while many of the contributors seem to be american right wingers there are also many people of other political persuasions contributing - for example :

    http://www.globalone.tv/profile/EricAllenBell/

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  116. icon
    PaulT (profile), 22 Jan 2015 @ 3:53am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: No Go Zones are real

    "I think you are going to have to supply some evidence for that last one."

    For what? The fact that ethnic and religious minorities often have their own insular communities that don't involve outside law enforcement if they can help it? I thought this was quite obvious. To give an extreme example:

    http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-15280776

    Does that mean we should fear and ostracise all Africans, or is it not scary because "Islam" isn't mentioned as the offending religion?

    "Also when "looking after their own" includes honour killings, forced marriages and FGM then it isn't something you can just dismiss."

    Nor does it mean that they are particularly widespread or have created "no go" areas for local citizens and law enforcement.

    Do these problems exist? Yes. Are they to the extend that the known liars and exaggerated claims in your links claim? No. Unless you have actual evidence to the contrary.

    "Well I am definitely not right wing - quite the opposite - and that is one reason why I find islam a worry."

    I apologise if I made an incorrect assumption - the "right wing" comment was aimed at your choice of material, not you personally. Why is it you worry, and why does "Islam" worry you, rather than just the more fundamental aspects and the sects that commit these kinds of acts (which is not all sects)?

    "FFI is run by an ex-muslim"

    So, presumably he has some posts with first-hand experience to provide, no? Otherwise, there's little instant credibility to be had there. People who have exited from a faith are often the most rabidly, obnoxiously and one-sided against it (see anti-theist comments from ex-Christians, for example - there may be truth but it's often not balanced).

    Either way, I do notice that it's third hand comments you're posting rather than any real facts. Even if FFI is a more reliable source than it first appears, there's no first hand evidence available in what you linked to.

    "while many of the contributors seem to be american right wingers there are also many people of other political persuasions contributing"

    Regardless, the link you posted was an American right-winger quoting known xenophobes with no corroborating evidence. His credentials are suspect, as are those of the people he quoted. Hell, he doesn't even provide a link to any of his quotes, so who knows if they were actually said and in what context, even if the source was trustworthy (and, believe me, Nigel Farage is not trustworthy)? If you have a link to a similar claim from the ex-Muslim owner of the blog, please provide it, else his credentials aren't really relevant.

    I also can't help but notice that of the 3 links you've provided so far to "prove" the situation in the UK, two are from foreigners who may never have visited the country, let alone examined first hand evidence, and the first was debunked merely by reading it to the end.

    I ask again, do you have any actual evidence for the claim being discussed? I'd suggest you stick to sources more toward the NSS link than the other two, but I'm unconvinced (FYI, I have decades of experience of life in the country we're discussing, so I can recognise distortion when I see it).

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  117. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 22 Jan 2015 @ 9:02am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: No Go Zones are real

    So, presumably he has some posts with first-hand experience to provide, no?

    Yes many For example this post

    http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/sina/why_i_left_islam.htm

    and all of these: http://www.faithfreedom.org/?author=2/

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  118. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 22 Jan 2015 @ 9:01pm

    "in order to have these words removed"

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisand_effect

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  119. icon
    Nop (profile), 22 Jan 2015 @ 11:00pm

    "Being for something with qualifications means you're not for it at all."
    Oh please. As much as I love this site, I despise those kinds of black & white, absolutist arguments. Translate this particular one into any other context, & it's obvious how childish it is, for example, saying: "I'm for sex, but against rape" is obvious common sense, & doesn't mean that I'm lying when I say I'm in favour of sex.
    Only spoiled children & Libertardians (but I repeat myself) think that absolute Freedom of Speech is an unalloyed good.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  120. icon
    PaulT (profile), 22 Jan 2015 @ 11:42pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: No Go Zones are real

    I meant on the subject at hand (the mythical "no go zones"). Otherwise, while the stories are interesting, they're irrelevant.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  121. icon
    PaulT (profile), 22 Jan 2015 @ 11:50pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: No Go Zones are real

    So, just to recap:

    You said "no go zones are real". When challenged to prove this, you provide several links. Your first link, despite what's claimed in the headline, actually disproves the concept. The second, while more credible, actually says nothing of the sort. The third is written by a right wing anti-Islam blogger who unquestioningly repeats the words of known racists and xenophobes with no context.

    Your defence for this is somewhere between "it's real just believe me" and "the guy who runs one of the sites used to be Muslim so anything written there must be true".

    Where are your links from people with evidence - preferable those actually in the UK with first hand accounts and not bloggers the other side of the world with an axe to grind? You're making the claim - surely you have better evidence than this? I don't want to call you a liar, but you're not backing up your own claim with anything resembling reality.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  122. icon
    Richard (profile), 23 Jan 2015 @ 6:53am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: No Go Zones are real

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  123. icon
    PaulT (profile), 23 Jan 2015 @ 7:21am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: No Go Zones are real

    Hey, a potentially reliable source that appears to have something to do with the issue being discussed! Thanks, Richard, if only that other guy was as honest.

    I can't watch the video while I'm at work, so I'll try to remember over the weekend. However, I do notice that the description does state that there's right wing racist groups doing essentially the same thing (Britain First is a splinter group of the notorious BNP).

    Personally, I'd consider anywhere "patrolled" by these ignorant thugs as much a "no go area" as anywhere patrolled by Muslims trying to keep their own in line, but at least we're getting somewhere close to there being a nugget of truth being proven in AC's original statement - and it only took 3 days and the dismantling of several proven lies to get there!

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  124. icon
    Richard (profile), 23 Jan 2015 @ 1:01pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: No Go Zones are real

    You will find that the video focuses mostly on the (supposedly "Christian") counter patrols. I don't know why they call them Christian - they don't seem to have much in common with Christianity and don't even claim to be Christian much of the time.

    However it does provide enough hard evidence to support the only claim I made which was that

    "something a bit like it does exist on a small scale and is certainly an aspiration of some muslims."

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  125. icon
    cypherspace (profile), 23 Jan 2015 @ 4:40pm

    Re: Re:

    They've represented foreigners in US courts in lawsuits challenging torture, the drone program, etc. Wouldn't be much of a legal stretch for them to challenge a lawsuit bought by a foreigner when there are 1st Amendment issues at play for the defendant - I'm assuming any case against Fox News would be bought in US jurisdiction.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  126. icon
    Richard (profile), 24 Jan 2015 @ 3:14am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: No Go Zones are real

    You said "no go zones are real"

    That was Floyd - I never said that.

    I said "something a bit like it does exist on a small scale ".

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]


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