Wichita Police Respond To Request For Shooting Incident Details With A Handful Of Fully-Redacted Pages

from the literally-nothing-to-see-here,-move-along dept

So much for the power of open records requests. Sure, you get some scratch paper out of the deal, but otherwise, there's nothing "open" about this shooting report delivered in response to the Wichita Eagle's request. (h/t to Techdirt reader Brig C. McCoy, via KansasExposed.org)

The city of Wichita has released a heavily redacted public incident report from the Jan. 3 police shooting of John Quintero.

About four and a half pages of the five-page report are redacted. The reports typically detail what happened in an incident and include information from witnesses and officers involved.
Pretty much the entirety of the released report [pdf link] looks like this:


(If you can't see the embed, don't sweat it. Literally nothing to see but black ink, although you are missing the unintentionally ironic title of "Public Incident Report.")

The only information actually revealed is a short description of the incident.
Report Date: 01/032015 I8158 Start Date: 01/03/2015 18:58

EndDate: 18:58

Summary: VI WAS REPORTED TO BE ARMED WITH A KNIFE AND CONFRONTED OFFICERS. VI WAS SHOT BY OFFICERS AND TRANSPORTED CODE BLUE VIA MEDIC 24 TO WESLEY MEDICAL CENTER. VI LATER PRONOUNCED CODE BLK @ 0055 HRS. NOTIFICATIONS MADE. LAB 23 AND 34 ON SCENE. SEE
CONNECTING CASE 15C000630. SGT HIGHTOWER AND LT OJILE ON SCENE. INCIDENT WITNESSED BY W1, W2 AND W3. PHN RPT
Everything else, including officers' statements and those from the three witnesses have been redacted. What was released was common knowledge, as the Wichita Eagle had been covering the case since the night it happened. Officers responded to a call reporting a "disturbance involving a knife." 23-year-old John Quintero was shot by officers after he became "belligerent" and "reached for his waistband." No weapon was found on Quintero.

Now, there may be a good reason this was all redacted. Or if not a good reason, than at least the usual reason police departments withhold information: the case is still under investigation. But the Wichita PD hasn't offered any comment on its decision to redact nearly everything in this report. One wonders why it even bothered releasing it at all. It's one thing to be transparent. It's quite another to make meaningless gestures like this in the letter of open records laws, while avoiding the spirit of them entirely.

And it may not actually still be under investigation. The only other interesting item left unredacted follows the truncated incident report. Under the heading "Add'l info" it says the following:
1 - 0130 JUSTIFIABLE HOMICIDE - - Original Report
What it looks like (and, of course, one can only infer so much from this extremely limited "data set") is that the officer involved has either been cleared or is well on her way to being cleared at this point -- 10 days after the shooting occurred.

The Wichita Police have offered no statement one way or the other on its justifiable homicide report, but its silence, along with its secrecy, indicates it would rather have this blow over quickly than deal with the consequences of a questionable shooting. Of course, it's far from the only law enforcement agency to "mistake" multiple pages of opaque black ink for "transparency." If you're doing nothing wrong, you've got nothing to hide, right?


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  • identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 30 Jan 2015 @ 7:31pm

    This homicide was justifiable because █████████████████████████████████ █████████████████████████████████ █████████████████████████████████ █████████████████████████████████ █████████████████████████████████ █████████████████████████████████ █████████████████████████████████

    █████████████████████████████████ █████████████████████████████████ █████████████████████████████████ █████████████████████████████████ █████████████████████████████████ █████████████████████████████████ █████████████████████████████████ █████████████████████████████████ █████████████████████████████████ █████████████████████████████████ █████████████████████████████████ █████████████████████████████████ █████████████████████████████████

    █████████████████████████████████ █████████████████████████████████ █████████████████████████████████
    █████████████████████████████████ █████████████████████████████████ █████████████████████████████████ This should dispel any possible doubts you might have had regarding the officers' conduct.

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  • icon
    Binko Barnes (profile), 30 Jan 2015 @ 7:44pm

    We should all be very frightened to think that "reaching for your waistband" is justifiable grounds for summary execution.

    When you get stopped by a cop you'd better hope that your hands never move downward since any such movement could be described as "reaching for your waistband" and subject you to execution.

    At this point it's clear that we need a major revamp of our so-called Justice System as it pertains to the police. Start with common sense changes such that shooting a citizen who does not even possess a weapon is a criminal act no matter what the cop was thinking or what fearful state he was in.

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • identicon
      Anonymous Coward, 30 Jan 2015 @ 8:30pm

      Re:

      I'm always terrified that I will sneeze when talking to the police. They are very scared of sudden movements.

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • icon
      Ben (profile), 30 Jan 2015 @ 9:41pm

      Re:

      Officer: "He reached for his waistband, so I protected myself and shot him."

      Supervisor: "Sounds justified to me."

      --- so where does your "not moving your hands down" come into this? All you can hope for is video evidence of the incident ... but we've already experienced DA's ignoring video evidence.

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

      • icon
        cbpelto (profile), 31 Jan 2015 @ 8:04am

        RE: Lawful Use of Deadly Force

        I've been through three doses of that: (1) as a young paratrooper deployed with my 82d brigade to provide MACA support to the DCPD during the May Day Riots of '71, (2) as an armed security guard and (3) for my CCW permit.

        And in NONE of them was I ever told I could shoot somebody who was NOT an imminent threat to human life, e.g., and pointing a firearm at someone else.

        If the man didn't have a weapon in his hands at the time he was shot, this is outright murder

        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

        • identicon
          Anonymous Coward, 31 Jan 2015 @ 11:20am

          Re: RE: Lawful Use of Deadly Force

          "If the man didn't have a weapon in his hands at the time he was shot, this is outright murder"

          Apparently, from many recent cases, outright murder is OK for cops. Even what could be considered mass murder if done by "civilians" is OK for cops.

          reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

          • icon
            cbpelto (profile), 31 Jan 2015 @ 12:38pm

            Re: Re: RE: Lawful Use of Deadly Force

            RE: It's Called 'Qualified Immunity'

            It's afforded LEOs. I gives them the right to kill anyone they can claim caused them to 'fear for their life'. Whether their victim is armed or not.

            Here's a list of some of their victims…..

            • Jonathan Ferrell — Charlotte NC, running to the police after surviving an auto accident….gets gunned down.

            • John Winkler — LA, gunned down running towards a sheriff's deputy as he was fleeing the man who had held him hostage with a knife.

            • Michael Davidson — USAF, gunned down by a state trooper as he was walking towards him after a traffic accident he was involved in.

            • Alfred Redwing — Albuquerque, NM, unarmed and shot on the front porch of his home after he'd been SWAT'd and was dumb enough to come out into the direct line of fire as the police had demanded.

            • Eric Scott — Las Vegas, NV, gunned down in the Costco parking lot because he had a concealed carry permit. And the security camera that was watching the incident reportedly 'malfunctioned' so that evidence of the shooting was lost.

            • Tamir Rice — 12-year old playing in a Cleveland, OH, park with an airsoft pistol. Police shot him dead within 2 seconds of their arrival on the scene.

            • Aiyana Stanley-Jones — 7-year old in Detroit. Shot by police while she slept on a couch.

            • John Crawford III, 22, was fatally shot by law enforcement inside a Beavercreek, Ohio Walmart on Aug. 5 within minutes of a 911 call from a fellow Walmart shopper. He was carrying a BB gun he considered buying.

            • Dillon Taylor — Unarmed. Killed by the Salt Lake City police because he moved his hands when the officer demanded he show his hands. The DA found no reason to charge the officer.

            • Jose Guerena — Tucson, AZ. Shot 60 times in a no-knock drug raid that found no drugs. He had the temerity to think the crashing of his door down was a home invasion and was prepared to defend his wife. So they shot him.

            • D’Andre Berghardt — Las Vegas, NV, had been walking down the highway trying to hitch a ride when police approached him. His behavior was erratic, and eventually he tried to climb inside a police vehicle — at which point he was shot dead.

            • Jerame Reid — Bridgeton, NJ, shot six times by police with his hands empty and up.


            And all that the police get is a 2-week paid vacation.

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            • icon
              Ninja (profile), 2 Feb 2015 @ 9:35am

              Re: Re: Re: RE: Lawful Use of Deadly Force

              Aiyana Stanley-Jones — 7-year old in Detroit. Shot by police while she slept on a couch.

              She was breathing suspiciously for sure.

              If it makes you feel better and make a connection with police violence around the world the cops shot 6 tear gas bombs inside a crowded subway station here because reasons. There was a protest nearby and part of the protesters were going home via subway with the rest of the population. The cops arrived shooting.

              reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

              • icon
                cbpelto (profile), 2 Feb 2015 @ 10:40am

                Re: Re: Re: Re: RE: Lawful Use of Deadly Force

                Re: Re: Re: Re: RE: Lawful Use of Deadly Force

                Check out the YouTube video I linked to here titled….

                This Is What Happens When You Call the Cops

                reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

            • icon
              Tony (profile), 2 Feb 2015 @ 9:43am

              Re: Re: Re: RE: Lawful Use of Deadly Force

              I've asked about other things - how the hell do we possibly stop this?

              reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

              • icon
                cbpelto (profile), 2 Feb 2015 @ 10:39am

                Re: Re: Re: Re: RE: Lawful Use of Deadly Force

                Check out the YouTube video I linked to here titled….

                This Is What Happens When You Call the Cops

                reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

                • icon
                  cbpelto (profile), 2 Feb 2015 @ 10:40am

                  Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: RE: Lawful Use of Deadly Force

                  OOOPS!

                  Replied to wrong comment.

                  My error…… ;-)

                  The only Man who was perfect got nailed to a tree.

                  reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

                  • icon
                    GEMont (profile), 2 Feb 2015 @ 8:38pm

                    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: RE: Lawful Use of Deadly Force

                    "The only Man who was perfect got nailed to a tree."

                    Nah, that was Simon they nailed to the tree on Pontius's estate and while Simon was pretty damn cool, he was way less than perfect.

                    He did volunteer for the role of sacrificial lamb though, for the "cause".

                    The heir apparent to the Judean throne walked. The man known as Jesus had a rebellion that needed his attention.

                    Simon's sacrifice gave him a new lease on sabotage.

                    Judas was a good guy, who sold Simon to the Romans, instead of Jesus, so that the leader of the rebellion could carry on the Rebel/Terrorist campaign against the occupying Roman Army.

                    The Romans had no idea what Jesus looked like - he was the rebellion leader - and they needed someone - a rebel - to point him out to the occupying Roman forces and collect the reward.

                    But at least (and surprisingly), you got the tree part right. :)

                    Did you learn where they really stuck the nails too?

                    ---

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                    • icon
                      cbpelto (profile), 2 Feb 2015 @ 11:37pm

                      Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: RE: Lawful Use of Deadly Force

                      Sorry to hear you are so terribly wrong.

                      God is alive….and Airborne-Ranger qualified. -- Chaplain, US Army Airborne School Chapel, Benning School for Boys, a.k.a. The Infantry School

                      P.S. So am I….. ;-)

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                      • icon
                        GEMont (profile), 3 Feb 2015 @ 12:19am

                        Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: RE: Lawful Use of Deadly Force

                        Ah, a Soldier! Even more importantly, A Sky Pilot!

                        Sorry, but it just never fails to amaze me how little the religious know of their religion's actual history.

                        I always try to educate, but I usually just offend.

                        Its my curse.

                        However, I do understand your need to believe in a less realistic and more romantic version of History, so no more uncomfortable realities shall I place before ye then.

                        PS - Did you ever figure out where they stuck the nails?

                        ---

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                        • icon
                          cbpelto (profile), 3 Feb 2015 @ 4:54am

                          Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: RE: Lawful Use of Deadly Force

                          RE: [OT] This Will Be My Last Reply….

                          ….to this off-topic sub-thread.

                          You atheists are really quite amazing in your denial.

                          I know for a fact that God (1) exists and (2) cares for me. How so? Because He saved my sorry fourth-point-of-contact on several occasions. Including one night jump with a malfunctioning parachute. As I was about to crash and burn, while trying to straighten out the mass of nylon that refused to open, that still small voice screamed in my ear "PREPARE TO LAND!"

                          At which point I snapped into the landing posture. A second later I crashed into Mother Earth. But I didn't 'burn'. I got up and walked away. But my M16 was a sorry mess. Not one piece of plastic was larger than a square inch and the barrel was bent.

                          You haven't lived until you've almost died.

                          [Atheist, n., One praying to God that He doesn't exist.]

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                          • icon
                            GEMont (profile), 3 Feb 2015 @ 2:03pm

                            Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: RE: Lawful Use of Deadly Force

                            Off topic indeed. My bad.

                            But, as I promised, I will lay no more confusing reality before you.

                            PS - I've recovered from drowning twice through someone applying CPR and was once revived by friends after a three story fall. I think God was praying that I did not exist.

                            By the way, did you ever find out where they stuck the nails? :)

                            ---

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        • identicon
          Rekrul, 31 Jan 2015 @ 12:52pm

          Re: RE: Lawful Use of Deadly Force

          And in NONE of them was I ever told I could shoot somebody who was NOT an imminent threat to human life, e.g., and pointing a firearm at someone else.

          Under the new laws, which the courts have codified with their decisions, a cop merely has to think that their life might be in danger in order to execute someone.

          reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

          • icon
            cbpelto (profile), 31 Jan 2015 @ 1:25pm

            Re: Re: RE: Lawful Use of Deadly Force

            RE: Qualified Immunity MUST GO!

            Until it is gone, the police are ABOVE THE LAW that applies to everyone of US.

            reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

          • identicon
            Anonymous Coward, 31 Jan 2015 @ 6:03pm

            Re: Re: RE: Lawful Use of Deadly Force

            The dirty cops know this too. They even threaten people now with "don't make me fear for my life" if you do not do what I say.

            reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • icon
      Koby (profile), 30 Jan 2015 @ 10:20pm

      Re:

      There are some people who get tattoos of a pistol on their hip. It can apparently look convincing at a distance and at night. Saying that charges are "common sense" doesn't make them common sense, since the situations faced by officers can sometimes be much more complex than you realize.

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

      • identicon
        jackn, 31 Jan 2015 @ 5:54am

        Re: Re:

        You're right? I guess that justifies a complete cover-up.

        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

      • icon
        jeff s. (profile), 1 Feb 2015 @ 6:40pm

        Re: Re:

        it was 18 deg. for the high. if you are unable to tell the difference a 2d at too and a 3d gun need to get your eyes checked.

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      • identicon
        Anonymous Coward, 1 Feb 2015 @ 8:07pm

        Re: Re:

        "There are some people who get tattoos of a pistol on their hip. It can apparently look convincing at a distance and at night."

        Does everybody wear a crop top where you live or are they just topless?

        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

      • icon
        John Fenderson (profile), 2 Feb 2015 @ 9:13am

        Re: Re:

        You are implying that it's justifiable for a cop to shoot someone because the cop thinks that they have a pistol on their hip? That can't be right. If the pistol is on their hip, then they obviously aren't doing anything menacing with it.

        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • icon
    Chronno S. Trigger (profile), 30 Jan 2015 @ 8:24pm

    That report isn't a meaningless gesture, it's a giant "Fuck You" to the people who requested it. It's like leaving a 10¢ tip for your waiter. It's more insulting than leaving nothing.

    Seriously. I could understand a "We can't release the report, there's an ongoing investigation" response. This is going above and beyond that. Someone put effort into that.

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    • identicon
      Anonymous Coward, 31 Jan 2015 @ 5:58pm

      Re:

      I am forced to assume every redacted line was incriminating details about the shooter, his motives, and poor history as a law enforcement officer.

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 30 Jan 2015 @ 10:03pm

    The fact that the policewoman entered the area with an assault rifle in her hands would suggest that she fully intended to use it on anyone who might offer the least bit of trouble. (and it's not like she could have just put the rifle down to grab her taser or pepper spray) And once a cop points a rifle at someone, she's left with no alternative but to pull the trigger if the person doesn't do exactly what he's told.

    BTW, do they now teach trainees at the police academy to always say "he reached for his wasteband" whenever they kill an unarmed person for looking at them the wrong way?

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    • icon
      cbpelto (profile), 31 Jan 2015 @ 8:08am

      RE: POST Training

      I am confident that Peace Officer Standard Training (POST) teaches officers to shoot first and ask questions later.

      Started back in the 90s when the FBI abandoned the doctrine of 'Protection of Life' regarding the use of deadly force. After that, the mentality trickled down to local law enforcement.

      The theory behind it was that if the police became more brutal in their duties, the populace would become more compliant.

      You can check this out in a book….

      Deadly Force: What We Know — A Practicioner's Desk Reference on Police
      Involved Shootings by Geller and Scott (©1992).

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

      • icon
        That One Guy (profile), 31 Jan 2015 @ 7:40pm

        Re: RE: POST Training

        The theory behind it was that if the police became more brutal in their duties, the populace would become more compliant.

        An idea that is true, to a point. However, ratchet the fear up enough, make everyday people honestly fear for their lives any time a cop is around(and with the rate they gun down people, reaching that point is only a matter of time), and that fear is likely to cause people to go on the offensive in order to remove the threat.

        That's basic psychology, fear can keep someone 'docile' due to them trying to stay safe from the perceived threat, but if the fear grows too much, the threat too immediate, then survival instinct will all but demand the source of the fear/threat be removed.

        If the police continue on as they have, it will reach that point, and it will not be a pleasant sight.

        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

        • identicon
          Anonymous Coward, 1 Feb 2015 @ 4:32am

          Re: Re: RE: POST Training

          RE: The Vicious Downward Cycle of 'Fear'

          Indeed. As the people become more fearful of the police, it appears that the police become more fearful of the people.

          The police are becoming 'clinical paranoids', afraid of everyone and everything, e.g., bananas.

          reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

        • icon
          GEMont (profile), 3 Feb 2015 @ 12:51am

          Re: Re: RE: POST Training

          Oddly enough, I think that this is exactly the desired goal.

          The Circle goes thus:

          By making the consequences for the cops less and less until total immunity from all harmful actions is the outcome, they make cops less careful about their handling of the public.

          By making them less careful of their handling of the public, the public begins to fear them and retaliate.

          By making the public fearful of the police until they start to retaliate against the perceived threat that is the police force, the police forces begin to perceive the public as a greater and growing threat - an actual menace, or as the feds put it, The Adversary - and escalate the use of brutality, false arrest, stop and frisk, and start wearing more body armor, driving around in armored vehicles, using assault weapons on the public, and generally acting more and more like an occupying army in a foreign land.

          Naturally the public will again react by fearing the police more and going underground for the majority of its activities in order to avoid contact with the police altogether. This in turn makes the poor and city bound public appear to be more criminally-active and thus give the papers and TV even greater fodder for even greater stories about the evil feral public poor in their hidden lairs, doing all sorts of evil and pornographic rituals.

          As long as the majority of the police action is taken against the poor and homeless, drug dealers and users, the middle class reacts by demanding more police protection from the evil of the poor and drug dealers and terrorists they see each night on TV eating children and raping dogs, chickens and goldfish, thereby justifying the escalation of the militarization of the police further and justifying the use of increased force against the victims of this cycle.

          Politicians get to cater to their constituents demands because they too want to justify the police state activities and at the same time look good.

          The police get larger budgets and special pay hikes for specialized services and grow in personnel size and shrink in responsibility, and accountability.

          They also get to keep what they steal from their victims.

          A police state must have absolute immunity for its police forces, since the rulers of a fascist system must constantly use them to perform legalized culling of the parts of the population that represent expenses without returns, to prevent insurrection born of desperation, and to insure the necessary redistribution of wealth from the middle class and poor, that makes yachts, bimbos and cocaine a sure thing for one's off hours and retirement.

          I think that the black guy was right. You cannot undo a fascist regime from within. It has to be destroyed from without.

          C'est la vie eh.

          ---

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      • identicon
        Anonymous Coward, 1 Feb 2015 @ 10:34am

        Re: RE: POST Training

        I am confident that Peace Officer Standard Training (POST) teaches officers to shoot first and ask questions later.

        Shouldn't that be shoot first, and figure out how their life was threatened afterwards?

        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

        • icon
          cbpelto (profile), 1 Feb 2015 @ 11:01am

          Re: Re: RE: POST Training

          RE: Heh

          Even more accurate…..

          [1] Think their life is threatened.
          [2] Shoot.
          [3] AND THEN 'figure out how they can claim their life was threatened afterwards'.
          [4] Afterwards, ask questions to get answers that will justify their shooting.

          The officer who, in his report, claimed he felt his life was threatened, while hiding behind a three-layer thick brick wall—the bricks of which were made in 1901 and it would take a .50 cal a bit of 'chewing' to make any serious impression—writes that if I had given him half-the-chance he'd a gunned me down.

          reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • icon
      cbpelto (profile), 31 Jan 2015 @ 8:10am

      RE: This Is What Happens When You Call the Cops

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • identicon
    David, 30 Jan 2015 @ 10:09pm

    Oh come on

    you get some scratch paper out of the deal

    I want my scratch paper white rather than black.

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 30 Jan 2015 @ 11:49pm

    Police Academy

    Sgt. Hightower... anyone else reminded of Bubba Smith's character from Police Academy?

    Come to think of it, releasing a 5 page document with 4.5 pages blacked out wouldn't even fly in a Police Academy movie.

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • icon
      cbpelto (profile), 31 Jan 2015 @ 7:57am

      Re: Police Academy

      RE: Hightower of Police Academy Infamy

      Watched Police Academy 3 last night.

      Now THAT'S a 'scary uniform'. -- Taxi Driver trying to bilk a Japanese cadet out of $700 when Hightower comes over to see what's going on.

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • icon
    got_runs? (profile), 31 Jan 2015 @ 1:24am

    got pork?

    The Pigs are laughing at everybody!

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  • identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 31 Jan 2015 @ 2:01am

    I'm curious to hear what the three witnesses have to say about the incident.

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 31 Jan 2015 @ 2:28am

    It was only a matter of time before the powers that be declared war on We The People. When they declare Marshal Law it will be an all out revolutionary war. Let us hope when they recall our troops to the continent the boots on the ground don't fall for their line of BS. Remember Kent State.

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • identicon
      Anonymous Coward, 31 Jan 2015 @ 12:43pm

      Re:

      I wonder how many people actually remember Kent State -- that was a bunch of reserves who had never seen combat, and one got trigger happy, which made someone else think they were being fired upon.

      The similarities to this current situation are definitely there, albeit there was a large protest on the edge of getting ugly at Kent State, and here there was just a single individual.

      Kent State is more a reminder that this stuff's been going on for decades; it isn't new. It's just now it's a war on terror instead of a war on communism.

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

      • icon
        cbpelto (profile), 31 Jan 2015 @ 1:27pm

        RE: Kent State

        I guess you missed the report from a couple years ago.

        The report was that there is an audio recording made by a student observing Kent State protest from a building near the scene.

        In the recording there is the sound of what seems to be four gunshots. There's a short pause and then you hear the Ohio National Guard open up.

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  • icon
    art guerrilla (profile), 31 Jan 2015 @ 6:24am

    in soviet amerika...

    ...pigs milk *you* ! ! !

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  • identicon
    Chuck Pelto, 31 Jan 2015 @ 7:49am

    Obstruction of Justice

    There's a law suit in there and jail time for contempt of court too.

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • icon
    cbpelto (profile), 31 Jan 2015 @ 7:54am

    Obstruction of Justice — Part II

    I'm experiencing similar obstruction in my case with the local police.

    We were SWAT'd a year ago this month. But because I didn't get myself shot by the dozen or so police around our happy home, they charged me with Felony Menacing. [NOTE: When they were pounding on the door as though to break it down, we thought it was a home invasion. So we armed ourselves and went down stairs to 'greet' whomever it was. Turned out to be the police.]

    We recently had another release of 'discovery'. This contains information that was NOT provided by the police back last March.

    THAT is 'obstruction of public justice', as known in this state.

    The police don't like it when they've been caught breaking the law. And obstruction IS breaking the Law.

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • identicon
      Anonymous Coward, 31 Jan 2015 @ 11:27am

      Re: Obstruction of Justice — Part II

      "The police don't like it when they've been caught breaking the law. And obstruction IS breaking the Law."

      Only if a judge says so, and most judges won't say so for a cop.

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 31 Jan 2015 @ 10:00am

    Fucking censors. They ain't Charlie!

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 31 Jan 2015 @ 10:22am

    Every day I'm losing more sympathy for cops that have been killed...

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • identicon
    Rekrul, 31 Jan 2015 @ 1:15pm

    How UK police deal with a man with two large knives;

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFddlI9QHJk

    How U.S. cops deal with a man with a pocket knife;

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byUrfet3xWA

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • identicon
      Anonymous Coward, 31 Jan 2015 @ 7:31pm

      Re:

      The solution seems very simple: short term, disarm the US police. Long term, retrain these aggressive, trigger-happy cops.

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

      • icon
        That One Guy (profile), 31 Jan 2015 @ 7:44pm

        Re: Re:

        No, don't disarm them, fire them.

        Remove the rot entirely, and then start fresh, making it clear that any of the replacements that can't restrain themselves, or believe that they are above the law that everyone else has to follow, will also be removed from their position, and investigated and charged if appropriate.

        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

        • identicon
          Anonymous Coward, 1 Feb 2015 @ 2:18am

          Re: Re: Re:

          Fire the entire police force, nationwide? It could never happen in the USA. The police unions are much too powerful. (and the way the're increasingly being armed with bigger and more lethal battlefield weapons, the police could conceivably even take over the country if 'push ever came to shove.'

          Though that sort of thing has indeed happened before. Mikhail Saakashvili, president of the Republic of Georgia, fired and replaced the nationwide police force a decade ago, and the situation in that country has been much improved ever since.

          Ukraine accomplished much the same last year, but only after the government was overthrown, and the established order revamped top to bottom. (Come to think of it, that might not be such a bad idea here in the good ol' USA.)

          reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

          • identicon
            Pragmatic, 3 Feb 2015 @ 5:58am

            Re: Re: Re: Re:

            The trouble with attempting to revamp ANYTHING is that you can't leave a vacuum. If you do, the strongest-willed, most organized group will take over the administration of the state and run it.

            Wait...

            We've got that now. Religious fascists have taken over the levers of power because they control many of our legislatures while telling us to mistrust government on principle.

            If you don't understand the importance of administration you won't understand why we can't just shoot our way out of this.

            reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

        • identicon
          Anonymous Coward, 1 Feb 2015 @ 4:35am

          RE: What Needs to be Done

          The simplest solution to the problem of trigger-happy, homicidal paranoid police is….

          ….END 'QUALIFIED IMMUNITY'!

          Make them as accountable to the laws relating to the use of deadly force as everyone else is.

          No one should be ABOVE THE LAW!

          reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

          • icon
            cbpelto (profile), 1 Feb 2015 @ 4:37am

            Re: RE: What Needs to be Done

            P.S. I'm NOT an anonymous coward. The system dropped my sign in. And I had not had enough coffee to recognize that.

            There's too much blood in my caffeine system.

            reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

          • icon
            That One Guy (profile), 1 Feb 2015 @ 8:18am

            Re: RE: What Needs to be Done

            While that would help, given how often they can do whatever they want(up to and including killing someone on camera) and never be charged with a crime, that would seem to be a secondary fix.

            Qualified Immunity only really kicks in once they've been charged, and are in court, and there are example a'plenty showing how rare that is, so while removing it would certainly be something I would support, as far as 'needed fixes' go it's a bit down the list of priorities.

            reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

            • icon
              cbpelto (profile), 1 Feb 2015 @ 10:19am

              Re: Re: RE: What Needs to be Done

              RE: Qualified Immunity….

              ….is what PREVENTS them from being charged.

              The DAs don't care to charge them in the first place.

              Even when the DAs go for a Grand Jury, they only show the jurors the evidence they want them to see, in order to get the verdict they desire. Cases in point:

              • Jonathan Ferrell — Charlotte NC, running to the police after surviving an auto accident….gets gunned down.

              • Michael Brown — Fergusen, MO. In this case the charges against Wilson should not have been shooting Brown, rather firing upon him as he ran away.

              Qualified immunity, when applicable, shields government officials from liability for the violation of an individual's federal constitutional rights[contradictory]. This grant of immunity is available to state or federal employees performing discretionary functions where their actions, even if later found to be unlawful, did not violate "clearly established law." -- Wikipedia on Qualified Immunity


              With these 'Rules of Engagement', DAs won't even bother attempting to charge LEOs. Even in the more egregious circumstances, e.g., the Georgia Chief Of Police who shot his own wife.

              reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

              • icon
                cbpelto (profile), 1 Feb 2015 @ 10:22am

                Re: Re: Re: RE: What Needs to be Done

                ADDENDUM: I'm confident that once the police realize they're going to be held to the same letter of the Law that all the rest of US are, they'll not be so trigger-happy.

                As evidence, I point you to the report that in Oakland, CA, where they are strictly enforcing the police wear body-cams, the number of police-involved shootings of people to death dropped from EIGHT per year to ZERO in the last 18 months.

                Removing Qualified Immunity would be a lot cheaper than equipping every LEO with a body cam….which all to frequently 'malfunctions' in all too many police departments.

                reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

        • icon
          John Fenderson (profile), 2 Feb 2015 @ 9:15am

          Re: Re: Re:

          I'm not convinced that firing all cops would get rid of the rot at all. I think the rot is from the head down. It starts with management: hiring practices, training practices, use of force guidelines, etc. Replacing all cops would just get us a new crop of dubious cops.

          reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • identicon
      Anonymous Coward, 2 Feb 2015 @ 6:06am

      Re:

      Found it; how armed British police approach a suspected armed man http://i.imgur.com/0dlbOE7.gifv. It turns out that the gun was actually a fake. Note the tactics, the armed officer stands back, while his unarmed companion approaches the suspect, and how he kept his gun pointed at the sky, until the suspect reached for his gun.

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • icon
    Philip Storry (profile), 31 Jan 2015 @ 4:45pm

    I will try not to weep

    On this next Tuesday, I will have the privilege of being at the British Library viewing the four surviving copies of the Magna Carta.

    I doubt I have to tell any visitors to the website what the Magna Carta is, but for those who may wonder I will simply say it is the embryonic charter of all rights you assume you have today. You should undertake a study of it and its impact on the world.

    On Tuesday, I will try my best to forget this news article. I will try my best to view those four vellums with the optimism and reverence that they inspire and deserve.

    But this news undermines my ability to do that. And I am not American, and cannot legally protest or contest this news, and therefore I find myself simply offended by it - and unable to change it. This simply compounds my foul mood around this subject.

    And that is why a British citizen feels he must forget news of an American abuse of justice, lest he weep when he views those four surviving vellums that sought to establish our rights so soundly.

    Any tears in the British Library on Tuesday will be well deserved, and a sad reflection on how far our principles have drifted.

    But I will try to forget this, so that there will be no tears.

    I will try.

    No matter how hard this, and so many other news articles, may make it.

    I will try.

    If only out of respect for the principles of that 800 year old charter, and the empty words that are still sadly spoken in its shadow.

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 31 Jan 2015 @ 6:00pm

    just another gang of criminals that have decided the public serves them. As targets, sources of money and all around punching bags.

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • identicon
    Thrudd, 1 Feb 2015 @ 12:46pm

    Training

    Well besides doing a full fire and replace, all levels of police services should be required to work as a barista for six months. If they don't survive that then they would be automatically barred from applying again for five years.

    Question: When did policeman stop being peace keepers and start being enforcers.

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • identicon
      Anonymous Coward, 1 Feb 2015 @ 12:55pm

      Re: Training

      Question: When did policeman stop being peace keepers and start being enforcers.

      When management theory was applied to their management, and they use arrests/convictions as a measure of how well the police are doing their job, as it is impossible to measure crimes prevented.

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

      • identicon
        Thrudd, 1 Feb 2015 @ 2:33pm

        Re: Re: Training

        Is that because of management laziness and - or all out stupidity?

        I would have thought customer feedback coupled with the rate of crimes committed in their precinct would be a more accurate and effective indicator.
        But then again I am QA and not management trained.

        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

        • icon
          cbpelto (profile), 1 Feb 2015 @ 3:25pm

          Re: Re: Re: Training

          RE: Which Is It? Laziness or Stupidity

          For all the world, it looks to me to be neither. Rather rank disregard for the concept that the only lawful justification for taking a human life is 'Protection of Life', which the FBI gave up on over 12 years ago.

          reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • icon
      cbpelto (profile), 1 Feb 2015 @ 1:21pm

      Re: Training

      RE: When Did Peace Officers Become Judge Dredd?

      It happened back in the early 90s, when the FBI set aside the doctrine of 'Protection of Life' with regards to the use of deadly force.

      You can check it out in certain references. I found it in the following….

      Deadly Force: What We Know — A Practicioner's Desk Reference on Police
      Involved Shootings by Geller and Scott (©1992). See pages 274-5.

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • icon
    GEMont (profile), 1 Feb 2015 @ 3:45pm

    Bad Blue

    The truly wonderful aspect of a police state - for police - is that the police get to pick and choose what laws they will and will not obey, on the fly.

    And because they ARE the police, there is nobody that can take them to the carpet for their crimes when they choose to disobey the laws.

    ---

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 2 Feb 2015 @ 4:20am

    Reminds me

    Officers fearing for their health and "he was reaching for" sometimes reminds me of an early South Park episode, were they are going hunting and justify shooting everything by screaming "it's coming at us".

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • identicon
    Just Another Anonymous Troll, 2 Feb 2015 @ 6:48am

    Return fire- with pranks

    Perhaps I will file my own FOIA request for this. Naturally, it will be entirely redacted. Then I will complain bitterly because they ignored my FOIA request.

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • identicon
    Mr. X, 2 Feb 2015 @ 8:40am

    This is nothing new

    The Wichita Police Department has been allowing their Gestapo stormtroopers to murder innocent civilians for decades.

    I recall back in the early 80s, a WPD cop named A.E. Rey and two of his cop buddies beat a homeless man to death in the downtown area. They were all fired and charged with murder. They got off with the usual slap on the wrist.

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • identicon
    Just Another Anonymous Troll, 2 Feb 2015 @ 11:19am

    It would probably have been more efficient to return a drawing of a hand with its middle finger raised. Saves on ink.

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]


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