UK Woman Denied Passport Because Her Name Might Infringe On Disney's Copyright

from the transmitting-infringing-names-across-borders-for-personal-gain dept

With all the talk of terrorism keeping government officials firmly focused on travel documents (and electronics), it really comes as no surprise that they're on top of any passport anomalies. Like a traveler sporting one more "Skywalker" in their name than the other 99.9999% of the population. [via several TD readers, but first from Jon Jones]

Her namesake may be able to travel across galaxies in Star Wars, but Laura Matthews from Southend – whose middle name is Skywalker – isn't even able to get on a budget airline to the Med.

The 29-year-old added the middle name by deed poll in 2008, "for a bit of a laugh", and recently tried to renew her passport, complete with her new name and the signature L. Skywalker. Her application was refused, with the Home Office telling her it "will not recognise a change to a name which is subject to copyright or trademark".
Seeing as copyright and trademark law has nothing to do with security and/or a person's ability to travel, it's a bit odd that the passport office would be so concerned about George Lucas' intellectual property -- a stock farmboy character transplanted to a stock good v. evil storyline set in a futuristic past. After all, as Laura Skywalker points out, no other government agency has expressed a concern about her legally-changed name.
A disgruntled Matthews complained: "It's on my driving licence, my bank cards, everything. Everyone else is happy with that signature apart from passport office."
In the spirit of compromise hastened by a disgruntled would-be traveler and a bunch of negative press, the passport office is trying to work out a way to let this Skywalker board aircraft. The fix suggested is the most bureaucratic solution, involving Matthews submitting passport paperwork with her old non-Skywalker signature and being allowed to keep the new one featuring the now-famous "L. Skywalker" scrawl, which will result in duplicated paperwork that doesn't match the current passport and will likely subject Matthews to additional scrutiny from watchful and confused customs officials in the future. Never forget: the government exists mainly to generate paperwork and performing this useless maneuver satisfies that requirement.

Still, it must be asked why customs is so damn adamant that no one violate the sanctity of intellectual property with spur-of-the-moment name changes. Granted, the agency acts as a buffer between nations by vetting travelers (and their counterfeit goods), but its objective should be safety, rather than acting as guardians against the secondary liability caused by the movement of an "infringing" name across borders. Also granted, the most powerful name in intellectual property -- Disney -- now "owns" Skywalker and other associated Star Wars IP. The mere speculation that the corporation would mobilize its army of IP lawyers has been enough to shut down productions clearly covered by fair use.

We're often accused of being some sort of IP-obsessives here at Techdirt when calling out others for their inability to tell their patents from their copyrights, but the true obsessives are those who man the borders and look for potentially-infringing names.


Reader Comments (rss)

(Flattened / Threaded)

  1.  
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    Ninja (profile), Aug 1st, 2014 @ 4:32am

    I sense a disturbance in copyright. (Too easy?)

     

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  2.  
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    Jeffry Houser, Aug 1st, 2014 @ 5:51am

    George Lucas's property?

    I don't think the name 'skywalker' is George Lucas's property anymore. He sold it to Disney [as is referred to in the subject line]

     

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  3.  
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    PaulT (profile), Aug 1st, 2014 @ 6:00am

    "Her application was refused, with the Home Office telling her it "will not recognise a change to a name which is subject to copyright or trademark"."

    Then why did they recognise it when processing her deed poll application? How can they accept a legal change of name for one service but not another?

    How can you legally change your name, only to have the resulting name not be valid for other legal documents? How can a name be valid for a driving licence but not a passport? What would happen if a parent gives them that name (and I'm sure someone somewhere has) - is their given birth name now unacceptable? Can that person then never get a passport?

    As ridiculous as the copyright angle is, the real story is that the UK government apparently has inconsistent rules for what constitutes a legal name across different legal documents. This is a problem.

     

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  4.  
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    Geno0wl (profile), Aug 1st, 2014 @ 6:01am

    The proper reaction

    This should have been their proper reaction to her middle name.

    http://www.reactiongifs.us/gives-shit-harrison-ford/

     

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  5.  
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    Richard (profile), Aug 1st, 2014 @ 6:02am

    Re: George Lucas's property?

    I don't think the name 'skywalker' is George Lucas's property anymore. He sold it to Disney [as is referred to in the subject line]

    I don't think the name can be anyone's property. It is too short for copyright - and trademark has to refer to a particular line of business.

     

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  6.  
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    Geno0wl (profile), Aug 1st, 2014 @ 6:04am

    This is very disturbing

    The idea that a company can "own" a name is very disturbing and needs to be nipped in the bud ASAP.
    Whomever at the passport office for a second thought copyright applied to them is a god damned idiot.

     

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  7.  
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    Richard (profile), Aug 1st, 2014 @ 6:07am

    Luke

    So why isn't anyone called Luke denied a passport? From the trademark point of view I can't see the difference.

     

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  8.  
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    Geno0wl (profile), Aug 1st, 2014 @ 6:09am

    Re: Luke

    Because Disney

     

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  9.  
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    Ruby, Aug 1st, 2014 @ 6:10am

    Mercedes?

    Isn't Mercedes a moderately common female name? Would the UK passport authority refuse to issue passports to children given this name at birth, or is it only if you change your name that the trademark issue comes into play?

    After all, given the 'moron in a hurry' test, I assume a girl named Mercedes probably wouldn't be easily confused with a car. Does this mean so long as Laura Skywalker avoids using The Force, she should be fine?

     

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  10.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Aug 1st, 2014 @ 6:10am

    God Almighty! it gets worse by the second! all we ever hear is 'Copyright Infringement'! the planet is now run by copyright industries, predominantly, the entertainment industries! anyone ever thought about how that sounds, that a planet is run by an industry that relies totally on make believe, that there isn't anything more important!? you couldn't make this shit up!!

     

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  11.  
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    TheResidentSkeptic (profile), Aug 1st, 2014 @ 6:10am

    Another sad passing...

    R.I.P Common Sense.

     

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  12.  
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    Richard (profile), Aug 1st, 2014 @ 6:15am

    Re:

    planet is run by an industry that relies totally on make believe,.....you couldn't make this shit up!!

    But They could!

     

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  13.  
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    Richard (profile), Aug 1st, 2014 @ 6:18am

    Not Disney

    The problem isn't Disney - it's these people:

    http://www.skywalker.com/

    (On the other hand if it is Disney that the passport office is thinking of then the existence of theis company proves that their fears are groundless!)

     

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  14.  
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    Richard (profile), Aug 1st, 2014 @ 6:21am

    Re: Not Disney

    Plus there are several other companies and a Band called Skywalker - all operating without the least interference from Disney.

     

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  15.  
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    PaulT (profile), Aug 1st, 2014 @ 6:34am

    Re: Mercedes?

    I can see a convoluted argument where if it can be proven that the copyrighted name was invented before a person changed it, then it could be a problem whereas if the name came first then it wasn't. So, a person with a traditional name like Mercedes can't be blocked because of the trademark (the company was named after a co-founder's daughter), nor can a person called Paul just because there's a movie with that name. But, someone called Dumbledore might have a hard time (or, someone calling themselves, say, Paul Atreides, maybe?).

    But, it's idiotic no matter how you put it. If trademarks and copyrights came into play, it would apply to people trying to use the name in a way that violated a trademark (such as setting up a business containing that name in a related industry), not on an identity document.

     

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  16.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Aug 1st, 2014 @ 6:41am

    Re: Mercedes?

    It is odd not to specify the problem as either copyright or trademark. But even more so, trademarks only cover certain areas of business and I don't think naming is one such. So they must be referring to copyright if it has to be a valid claim legally.

    The copyright industry is hysterical about avoiding any reference to fictional characters the specific companies do not own and trademarks. I guess that is the reference frame. How it made it past the name registration of other instances is what would make this case confusing.

    I remember tv-series using real life names of actors as references to other series or films. If the naming laws get relaxed too much, there will be no suing Lucy Skywalker, Michael Mouse and Carl Kent. In the end personal names would drop out of the franchises controls and that would be a dangerous slip. What about Badman, Zuperman and Zpiderman?

     

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  17.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Aug 1st, 2014 @ 6:47am

    Divestiture

    Disney is now so absurdly powerful that it can arbitrarily block people from getting passports. It wields so much power over the US government that ICE makes its public statements from Disney World.
    Disney is way, way too big. I think it's about time that Disney got broken up like AT&T did back in the day.

     

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  18.  
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    justok (profile), Aug 1st, 2014 @ 6:48am

    Sounds like the Passport office is just a Mickey Mouse operation

     

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  19.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Aug 1st, 2014 @ 6:52am

    Re:

    A quick search on Skywalker reveals various uses, including the person Melissa Skywalker, and the company making trampolines, and another dealing in electronics. Possibly the most appropriate use is a strain of marijuana

     

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  20.  
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    PaulT (profile), Aug 1st, 2014 @ 7:02am

    Re: Re: Mercedes?

    "If the naming laws get relaxed too much, there will be no suing Lucy Skywalker, Michael Mouse and Carl Kent."

    There shouldn't be any suing of them at all just for having those names. If they can be shown to be deliberately leveraging the name to confuse or mislead consumers, then they could be sued for that. But if a guy called Peter Parker happens to star in a TV show where they refer to the cast by their real names, I don't think there should be a copyright issue, unless perhaps the show is a clear rip-off of Spiderman. A show about a reporter who dresses up at night and swings through buildings to stop crime at night? Maybe. A show, say, about a neurotic father trying to deal with his teenage daughter's pregnancy, with no relationship to Marvel other than the actor's name? Not so much.

    Not that someone won't try to make it a copyright issue, but IMHO it really shouldn't apply.

    "What about Badman, Zuperman and Zpiderman?"

    What about this guy?

    http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-24911186

     

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  21.  
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    ahow628 (profile), Aug 1st, 2014 @ 7:06am

    Re: Mercedes?

    I don't think Leia used the Force. Check. Mate.

     

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  22.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Aug 1st, 2014 @ 7:09am

    Ironically, her application was denied by D. Vader.

     

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  23.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Aug 1st, 2014 @ 7:11am

    That's an interesting assertion

    "Her application was refused, with the Home Office telling her it "will not recognise a change to a name which is subject to copyright or trademark"."

    So...everyone named Guinness, Kraft, Budweiser, Busch, Chevrolet, Ford, Pontiac, Chrysler, Kroger, Levi, Coors, Samsung, Nokia, DuPont, Johnson, Smith, McDonalds, Apple, Hewlett, Packard, Nordstrom, Sears, Cisco, Nike, Adidas, Nestle, Canon, Hennessy, Lincoln, Bosch, Colgate [etc.] is screwed?

     

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  24.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Aug 1st, 2014 @ 7:16am

    Re: Re:

    Trademark has usually been restricted to businesses within similar markets. So two businesses in different markets and the same name have historically not been considered a violation of trademark. Though, now a days, with international oligopolies, this restriction may not apply as much but I still don't see how someone's personal name being used for personal purposes can be confused with a business or a product being sold. Are consumers going to see her and get confused and think 'gee, she must be selling something owned by this trademark'.

     

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  25.  
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    Quiet Lurcker, Aug 1st, 2014 @ 7:21am

    Re:

    Then why did they recognise it when processing her deed poll application? How can they accept a legal change of name for one service but not another?

    How can you legally change your name, only to have the resulting name not be valid for other legal documents? How can a name be valid for a driving licence but not a passport? What would happen if a parent gives them that name (and I'm sure someone somewhere has) - is their given birth name now unacceptable? Can that person then never get a passport?


    I think you may be on to something here. Precedent in courts here and on the other side of the Atlantic suggests that one court follow another's decisions. Isn't the same or similar principle followed by bureaucratic agencies? And if not, why not?

     

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  26.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Aug 1st, 2014 @ 7:35am

    Here's the problem...

    Customs officials don't get to determine whether her name change was legal or not. That ship had already sailed. That is now her legal name and they just have to deal with it.

     

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  27.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Aug 1st, 2014 @ 7:50am

    Furthermore, this is trademark not copyright. Trademark violations only occur in commerce. Apparently the UK must have a backwards version of Citizens United in effect where people are now also corporations.

     

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  28.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Aug 1st, 2014 @ 8:17am

    Isn't this restricting her freedom of movement?

    She should sue.

     

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  29.  
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    JWW (profile), Aug 1st, 2014 @ 8:20am

    There

    There...are...not.....any other.......Skywalkers....

     

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  30.  
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    pixelpusher220 (profile), Aug 1st, 2014 @ 8:21am

    She's a terrorist

    I mean, have you seen the movies?

     

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  31.  
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    Rikuo (profile), Aug 1st, 2014 @ 8:22am

    Re: That's an interesting assertion

    The UK has crown copyright. Does it own the name Sterling, the name of their currency? If so, a friend of mine with that last name could potentially be screwed if this ridiculousness continues (it's a family name, several generations old at least).

     

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  32.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Aug 1st, 2014 @ 8:34am

    This is IP Insanity. Permission Culture has come too far if we're denying people legal services based on a perceived slight like this.
    The next step from here is literally thoughtcrime; if someone is even thinking of someone else's IP without permission.

     

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  33.  
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    LduN (profile), Aug 1st, 2014 @ 8:49am

    should home office get in trouble?

    Surely if L. Skywalker is having a hard time getting her passport the Home Office should be in massive trouble for copying the IP behind Vogons?

     

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  34.  
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    Anon, Aug 1st, 2014 @ 9:32am

    Seen the Taco Bell ad?

    There's a TV ad for Taco Bell where they have a half-dozen people named "Ronald MacDonald" from all over the USA sitting around a table, with named place cards, trying Taco Bell food and saying how good it was. The final tagline was a question to them - would you buy Mexican food from a hamburger place?

    And that's legal...

     

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  35.  
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    John Fenderson (profile), Aug 1st, 2014 @ 9:37am

    Re: Seen the Taco Bell ad?

    "would you buy Mexican food from a hamburger place?"

    Taco Bell doesn't sell Mexican food, but even ignoring that -- it couldn't be any worse to buy it from McDonald's than from Taco Bell.

     

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  36.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Aug 1st, 2014 @ 9:46am

    David Thompson was using the name Skywalker before George Lucas ever did. Maybe David "Skywalker" Thompson should sue Disney?

     

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  37.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Aug 1st, 2014 @ 9:52am

    Re: There

    "There...are...not.....any other.......Skywalkers...."

    Yes, there are, and in the USA.

    It is an uncommon surname but it does exist, I checked.

     

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  38.  
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    Richard (profile), Aug 1st, 2014 @ 10:03am

    Re: Re: George Lucas's property?

    and in a related story the passport office will not issue any passports starting or ending on 4th May - just in case...

     

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  39.  
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    printing724 (profile), Aug 1st, 2014 @ 10:13am

    Re: That's an interesting assertion

    Well, if any one of them could prove that their use of the name predated the issuance of the trademark, they might have a case for infringement themselves...

     

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  40.  
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    Anonymous Anonymous Coward, Aug 1st, 2014 @ 10:14am

    Re: Re: Re:

    Tell that to the IOC or FIFA.

     

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  41.  
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    nasch (profile), Aug 1st, 2014 @ 10:14am

    Re: Divestiture

    Disney is now so absurdly powerful that it can arbitrarily block people from getting passports.

    Actually the fear of Disney blocks people from getting passports. Disney didn't actually do anything in this case. I'm not sure if that makes it better or worse.

     

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  42.  
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    Chris Brand, Aug 1st, 2014 @ 10:22am

    Re: Re: Mercedes?

    "It is odd not to specify the problem as either copyright or trademark" - isn't that one of popehat's red flags for an invalid claim ?

     

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  43.  
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    Frank Cox, Aug 1st, 2014 @ 10:52am

    Skywalker is a First Nations (Native American) name

    I know people who live on an Indian Reserve near here whose last name is Skywalker.

    I'm sure they were named Skywalker long before George Lucas was born.

     

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  44.  
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    Daniel Lowe, Aug 1st, 2014 @ 10:54am

    At least she's not called Hercules or Pocahontas

    Disney has claimed a copyright on the historical figures "Hercules" and "Pocahontas"... if you tried to make a movie with either one of these characters, you would get sued by Disney.

    Hercules is an Ancient Greek God. Pocahontas was a historical native American.

    What gives Disney this right? (you know the answer already: Money)

     

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  45.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Aug 1st, 2014 @ 11:07am

    I thought "Skywalker" was an English translation of an American Indian name. If so, they need to crank up their legal team against Lucas and Disney.

     

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  46.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Aug 1st, 2014 @ 11:08am

    Secondary liability? It's the fucking government. Is there a weird exception for copyright under their FTCA statutes?

     

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  47.  
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    Easily Amused (profile), Aug 1st, 2014 @ 11:59am

    Re: Re: Mercedes?

    she certainly did...

     

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  48.  
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    Nick (profile), Aug 1st, 2014 @ 12:19pm

    Re:

    Where I work, I came across a guy named James Bond III. Indicating that not only is there a James Bond out there (COPYRIIIIIIIIIGHT!) but that there are at least 2 more of them too. Are THEY denied passport applications because their name is too similar to one under copyright?

    What about anyone with the last name Simpson (another I see often)? The idea that someone adopts -as their middle name no less - a single name from a fictional character in a fictional movie and this is cause for alarm to anybody just amazes me. You pick a name, and someone somewhere has it naturally.

    Heck my friend gave their daughter the middle name "Cortana". Is Microsoft going to deny her driver's license now?

     

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  49.  
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    art guerrilla (profile), Aug 1st, 2014 @ 12:24pm

    Re: Luke

    excellent point...

     

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  50.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Aug 1st, 2014 @ 1:14pm

    I know someone named Donald. I call him Don. Seeing as Donald Duck is a Disney character, I guess he can't get a passport either.

     

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  51.  
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    Lurker Keith, Aug 1st, 2014 @ 1:18pm

    Re: Re: Mercedes?

    Incorrect. Though Leia may not have used The Force in the movies, she was noted as a Force Sensitive, who could potentially use the Force. In the novels, she's a Jedi Knight.

     

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  52.  
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    aldestrawk (profile), Aug 1st, 2014 @ 2:57pm

    Re: Re:

    The website howmanyofme.com shows that in the U.S. 1593 people have Skywalker as their first name and 118 as their last name. Will these folks not be able to travel to the UK now?

     

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  53.  
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    aldestrawk (profile), Aug 1st, 2014 @ 3:23pm

    Re: Re: Mercedes?

    The most absurd example may be the name Wendy which came into existence in 1904 with the performance of the play "Peter Pan". The novel was first published in 1911 and the script for the play was first published in 1928. The name Wendy is now fairly popular. howmanyofme.com shows that 294,707 people have Wendy as a first name in the U.S.. Yet, it only came into the public domain in the UK in 2007 and the play is under copyright until 2023 in the US although the novel is in the public domain. I don't know if the name was ever trademarked but obviously it wasn't defended it it had been.
    In actuality, Wendy is a good example because it shows the lack of a negative effect even when a name invented by an author becomes widely used a first name.

     

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  54.  
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    aldestrawk (profile), Aug 1st, 2014 @ 3:36pm

    the real reason for denial

    The real reason she was denied a passport is because the US has the Skywalker name on a terrorist watch list (Have you seen the movie? He is personally responsible for destroying the deathstar. How many innocent workers for the Empire were residing on the deathstar when it was blown up?) The Home Office, per the US restrictions, can't admit to Skywalker being on a terrorist watch list. Hence, the made-up story about copyright and trademark.

     

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  55.  
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    BernardoVerda (profile), Aug 1st, 2014 @ 5:04pm

    Re: Re: Re: Mercedes?

    My understanding is that: the name 'Wendy' goes back further than that -- but before Peter Pan was published, it was generally considered to be a "boy's" name.

     

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  56.  
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    Padpaw (profile), Aug 1st, 2014 @ 5:14pm

    Least we now know Disney is paying off the UK government to do what they want instead of what they are legally supposed to do. Nothing like good old fashioned government corruption.

     

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  57.  
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    BernardoVerda (profile), Aug 1st, 2014 @ 5:15pm

    Re: Re:

    There’s actually a documentary film, The other Fellow, about guys named 'James Bond'
    http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2587214/
    http://www.jamesbondlifestyle.com/news/name-bond-james-bond

    And in any case, Flemming took the name from the cover of a bird-watching book, Birds of the West Indies, by American ornithologist, James Bond
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Bond_%28ornithologist%29

     

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  58.  
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    Padpaw (profile), Aug 1st, 2014 @ 5:16pm

    Re: Re: George Lucas's property?

    Never underestimate the greedy

     

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  59.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Aug 1st, 2014 @ 5:29pm

    Re: Re: Re: Mercedes?

    So... no Wendy's hamburgers in the UK?

     

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  60.  
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    NaBUru38 (profile), Aug 1st, 2014 @ 5:36pm

    Re: The proper reaction

    How about Ford? That's a car maker company, among other things.

     

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  61.  
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    nasch (profile), Aug 1st, 2014 @ 5:37pm

    Re:

    Least we now know Disney is paying off the UK government to do what they want instead of what they are legally supposed to do.

    No, we don't know that, at least not from the information in this article.

     

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  62.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Aug 1st, 2014 @ 9:42pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re:

    Maybe if we apply the moron in a hurry test it could somehow cause consumer confusion? I guess it would have to be a drunk moron on crack too.

     

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  63.  
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    Richard (profile), Aug 3rd, 2014 @ 8:32am

    Re: Re: Re: Mercedes?

    But if a guy called Peter Parker happens to star in a TV show where they refer to the cast by their real names, I don't think there should be a copyright issue,

    Peter Parker was chairman of British Rail in the 1970's. He was born in 1924 and was already well known before the fictional series appeared. He should have sued them.

    (Both Peter and Parker are common names there really cannot be an issue.)

     

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  64.  
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    Niall (profile), Aug 4th, 2014 @ 3:06am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Mercedes?

    Unless there are any in London, we've never really had Wendy's in Britain. There may have been one in Glasgow 20 years ago, and there may have been a few at stopover points on major roads.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  65.  
    icon
    Niall (profile), Aug 4th, 2014 @ 3:07am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Mercedes?

    Or maybe I'm thinking of Arby's in Glasgow. Regardless, Wendy's would be rarer than hen's teeth.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  66.  
    icon
    Niall (profile), Aug 4th, 2014 @ 3:11am

    Re:

    Vader is Dutch for Father. Watch out for Disney suing lots of Dutch publications...

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  67.  
    icon
    Niall (profile), Aug 4th, 2014 @ 3:14am

    Re: Skywalker is a First Nations (Native American) name

    I though the whole point of using the name 'Skywalker' was as a reference to shamanism, whether Old World or New. In which case, anyone trying to establish 'ownership' of the name is obviously using the wrong drugs...

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  68.  
    icon
    Niall (profile), Aug 4th, 2014 @ 3:16am

    Re: At least she's not called Hercules or Pocahontas

    Hercules was an ancient Roman god. Heracles was the ancient Greek god, but most people are too clueless to cope with that.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  69.  
    icon
    Niall (profile), Aug 4th, 2014 @ 3:17am

    Re: At least she's not called Hercules or Pocahontas

    Besides, Agatha Christie's estate might weigh in because of 'Hercule Poirot' being a prior claim...

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  70.  
    icon
    ahow628 (profile), Aug 4th, 2014 @ 7:02pm

    Re: Re: Re: Mercedes?

    Sorry, I don't read my Star Wars.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  71.  
    identicon
    Nah, Aug 5th, 2014 @ 2:45am

    lel

    Not much of a laugh now, is it bitch

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  72.  
    identicon
    Michael, Aug 7th, 2014 @ 7:03am

    RE: George Lucas's property?

    I think the world is generally confused over the concept of copyrights! They should worry when the name is used for business or any other purpose apart from personal! In this regard naming someone after famous Disney character should not constitute an offence! Stupid!

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  73.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Aug 15th, 2014 @ 1:24am

    "The 29-year-old added the middle name by deed poll in 2008, "for a bit of a laugh", and recently tried to renew her passport, complete with her new name and the signature L. Skywalker."

    Am I the only one getting a bit of a laugh now? Isn't it still funny?

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]


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