Fullerton Police 'Use Of Force' Trainer Says No Policies Violated During Beating Death Of Kelly Thomas

from the by-the-book-manslaughter dept

More expert witnesses have been called in to testify in the beating death of Kelly Thomas. The defense called in its two final witnesses late last week -- Cpl. Stephen Rubio, a "use of force" trainer for the Fullerton PD, and Dr. Stephen Karch, a forensic pathologist.

Rubio's takeaway from the 33-minute video showing homeless man Kelly Thomas being restrained and beaten by six Fullerton police officers?

“In the video, all things considered, I don’t see anything out of policy,” Rubio said.
Among the things that failed to fall outside of the Fullerton PD's use of force policy are Officer Cicinelli repeatedly striking Thomas in the face with the butt of his Taser and Officer Ramos announcing that he was "getting ready to fuck [Thomas] up."

As for the first non-violation of policy? Apparently if your Taser is not "effective," you can just turn it into a blunt-force weapon.
[R]ubio said the Taser that Cicinelli used on Thomas wasn’t working correctly because Thomas continued to fight and the device made a noise that indicated it was being “ineffective...”

Officers, he said, are allowed to improvise with their weapons, though they aren’t trained to use a Taser as an impact weapon.
So, officers aren't trained to improvise with their Tasers but somehow Cicinelli's freelancing isn't a violation of policy. Then there's this marvel of a sentence.
Strikes to the head and face can be dangerous depending on what items are used, how hard they land and where they hit the suspect, Rubio said.
When an expert witness paraphrases the obvious and offers it up as testimony, it's time to dismiss them from the stand. Rubio's saying what everyone knows, including the defense. Smashing people in the face does tons of damage, most of which has incredibly deleterious effects on the beaten person's health. In contrast, a former FBI agent testifying for the prosecution referred to Cicnelli's "improvisation" as the use of "deadly force." And yet, somehow this still falls within the flexible parameters of Fullerton PD's "use of force" policy.

As does this:
Defense attorneys also asked Rubio about a part in the video in which Ramos put on white latex gloves and tells Thomas, “See these fists? ... They’re getting ready to f--- you up.”

John Barnett, who is representing Ramos, asked Rubio if his client’s words were consistent with his training.

“Yes, it was a conditional threat,” Rubio said. “The profanity may be off-color and may be a slight policy violation.”

Still the use of words, even profane ones, as a means to avoid endangering an officer or suspect is acceptable, Rubio said.
So, the swearing was the only problem. Other than that, threatening someone with violence is completely "by the book" for the Fullerton PD. "Conditional threats?" Perfectly fine. (Not that Ramos' threat was conditional…) Just don't swear. "Please hand me your license and registration or I'll beat you with the butt end of my Taser." "If you don't place your hands behind your head, I'm going to hit you with every non-lethal weapon I have in my arsenal." "If you make me get a warrant, I'm going to rip your house apart and kill your pets." All by the book.

After damaging the reputation of the Fullerton PD ("threats are cool, as are improvised beatings") in hopes of redeeming two bad cops, the defense turned to another medical expert, one who followed the post-beating-death script to the letter. Beatings don't kill people. Drugs (and bad hearts) do.
Dr. Steven Karch, the final witness for two former city police officers charged with killing Kelly Thomas, said the homeless man suffered from methamphetamine cardiomyopathy, a weakening of the heart caused by drug abuse.

"He could have died sitting in a closet by himself," Karch said.
Could have. But didn't.

Thomas died five days after lapsing into an irreversible coma -- a coma he lapsed into while being beaten and restrained by six Fullerton police officers. All else being equal, I'm sure he would have preferred dying alone in a closet, rather than being beaten to death.

Karch, like many other coroners and pathologists before him, blamed the dead man for instigating his own death.
[K]arch said Thomas' clash with police was "precipitated" by a spontaneous psychotic episode brought on by past meth use.
Karch stands alone on this, contradicting both the Orange County coroner and UC Irvine trauma surgeon, who each determined Thomas had died from a lack of oxygen to the brain precipitated by chest compression and multiple injuries to the face.

According to Karch, there's only one person who truly knows why Kelly Thomas died.
Karch wouldn't say whether Thomas' fight with police on July 5, 2011, caused his heart to fail but said it could be a possibility.

"I would suspect that the added stress of this fight or physical altercation would make it worse," Karch said.

"So you're not saying he was destined to die on that particular day and the police just happened to be there?" Rackauckas said.

"Only God can say that," Karch said.
Nice. Too bad The Almighty can't be tapped to testify. According to toxicology reports, Thomas had no drugs or alcohol in his system on the night he died, but this fact matters little to those who see every beating death as the inevitable end to a drug "abuser's" life. If the cops don't get to him first, Thomas dies from heart complications -- maybe that same night, maybe 20 years later. Six on one side, half-dozen on the other.

Karch really had to stretch to make this theory fit a 135-lb. homeless man with no drugs in his system.
Thomas, he said, appeared to have had a psychotic episode the night he clashed with police, because only someone with "some kind of mental malfunction" would take on six police officers.

The strength it would take to fight with half a dozen police officers would normally be difficult to gather, but would be easy under a meth-induced psychotic episode, he said.
Except, of course, there was no meth in Thomas' system. What then?
[P]eople who habitually use meth can still be affected years later by the drug, suffering from such things as a weak heart and spontaneous psychotic episodes, Karch said.
So, if you've used drugs even once in your life (or have been arrested for possession), prepare to have that held against you by those attempting to brush aside accusations of brutality. No drugs in your system? Must just be some bad flashbacks. "Yeah, the perp fought hard, like a psycho. We needed six officers just to keep him restrained. Found out he used meth regularly up until 1995. No wonder he was such a monster NEARLY 20 YEARS LATER."

There's nothing facetious about this scenario.
A doctor who prepared a report on Thomas after he attacked his grandfather in 1995 with a fireplace poker wrote that Thomas told him he used methamphetamine and did "a lot" of LSD up until 1994.
No drugs in his system. It doesn't mean Thomas hadn't used meth recently, but it does mean he hadn't used any in a rather long period of time -- long enough that its traces had vanished from his system. And yet, the defense paints a portrait of a psychotic, amped up on drug flashbacks, overpowering six police officers who outweighed him by at least at 10-to-1 ratio. A psychotic who died of a preexisting heart condition no less, despite the fact his face resembled a tenderized side of beef by the time his comatose body arrived at the trauma center.

No one would expect the defense team to do any less in order to spring its clients, but the justifications and theories are old hat. They've been deployed by countless law enforcement agencies in the past. But they have to sway a jury this time, not just placate pesky members of the press. We'll see how that goes.



Reader Comments (rss)

(Flattened / Threaded)

  1.  
    icon
    OldGeezer (profile), Dec 23rd, 2013 @ 11:56pm

    Then maybe the cops that beat the shit out of Rodney King should have gotten off. Wait, they did!

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  2.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Dec 24th, 2013 @ 12:06am

    stick with what works

    "They've been deployed by countless law enforcement agencies in the past."

    Hey, they've worked in the past. Why not stick with what works?

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  3.  
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    That One Guy (profile), Dec 24th, 2013 @ 12:26am

    Oh that's /so/ conforting...

    If six cops can beat a man to death, and not once violate department policies regarding use of force, that's not an indication they did nothing wrong, that's an indication the department 'use of force guidelines' are completely fucked up.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  4.  
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    That One Guy (profile), Dec 24th, 2013 @ 12:30am

    Re: Oh that's /so/ conforting...

    *So comforting

    Blasted cold mucking up my typing...

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  5.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Dec 24th, 2013 @ 12:48am

    I don't agree with what has happened but hard drugs leave your system in a few days unlike cannabis.

    These police officers need to see the inside of a cell not from a visitor or officer perspective but a residents perspective for quite a few years.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  6.  
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    jacky (profile), Dec 24th, 2013 @ 12:53am

    A Little terror,I think the cops that beat the shit out of Rodney King should have gotten off.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  7.  
    identicon
    Just Sayin', Dec 24th, 2013 @ 1:05am

    Nice story, but...

    Boiled down, the homeless guy was fighting back and resisting officers, even with 6 officers trying to restrain him. You and the courts cannot ignore that someone would have to be more than a little bit disconnected from reality to keep fighting at that point.

    I feel for the police, they have a crap job and get their lives endangered by mentally deranged people, and then have to explain when one of them drops dead. Not very much win here, you can understand why many police forcefully ignore the homeless because the risk of doing their jobs and dealing with them is too high.

     

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  8.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Dec 24th, 2013 @ 1:17am

    I'm surprised they aren't trying to pretend he's a terrorist. That's the usual "Get Out Of Responsibility For Your Actions Free card" nowadays. The NSA could easily look up dozens of random coincidences for them.

    "He got his hair cut at the same place as a suspected terrorist's brother."
    "He usually went shopping at the same time at the same store as a suspected terrorist's son's sister-in-law."
    "He once took a taxi that had previously been taken by a suspected terrorist's next door neighbor."
    "Three of his Facebook friends are friends with people who are friends with terrorist suspects."

    They could spend hours, or even days, proving repeatedly that Kelly Thomas lived on the same planet as terrorists. After all, they're not trying to reveal the truth or see justice done; they're trying to convince a jury that police should be allowed to beat random people to death.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  9.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Dec 24th, 2013 @ 1:55am

    [K]arch said Thomas' clash with police was "precipitated" by a spontaneous psychotic episode brought on by past meth use.
    Karch stands alone on this, contradicting both the Orange County coroner and UC Irvine trauma surgeon, who each determined Thomas had died from a lack of oxygen to the brain precipitated by chest compression and multiple injuries to the face.


    Got to call you out on this, Tim. You've got a quote talking about the "clash" and then you make comment about how the victim died. The section you quote doesn't reason why the victim died, it reasons why he clashed with police.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  10.  
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    Lleud Ci (profile), Dec 24th, 2013 @ 2:20am

    Within Policy

    "all things considered, I don’t see anything out of policy"

    What did he consider amongst these 'all things'? Career, Peer Pressure, Groupthink?

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  11.  
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    OldGeezer (profile), Dec 24th, 2013 @ 2:52am

    Re:

    They did get acquitted in the first trial. What do you think caused the riots? Then they pulled some illegal federal double jeopardy shit and charged the four of them with violating King's civil rights and two were convicted. It's unconstitutional to be tried again for a crime that you have been acquitted of but even then only two went to jail.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  12.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Dec 24th, 2013 @ 3:17am

    Re:

    IT does not matter if there wa sa precipitation of events. A trial is based on the facts of death. Which two medical experts in mortality and mortology (new wird!) have given as 'hypoxia from chest compression and injuries to the face'.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  13.  
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    hidflect (profile), Dec 24th, 2013 @ 3:36am

    Close Shave

    "He got his hair cut at the same place as a suspected terrorist's brother."

    Ha! Well, I got my hair cut by an Iraqi who'd actually shaken hands with Saddam Hussein and nothing ever happened to.. Zing Crash Bang!

     

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  14.  
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    eric, Dec 24th, 2013 @ 3:40am

    second amendment

    now I know why every American has a gun.

     

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  15.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Dec 24th, 2013 @ 3:41am

    i wouldn't mind betting the cops get off. the reason being, no one gives a fuck about a homeless ex junky or anyone else until it's a member of their family or a friend. then, unfortunately, because the jury didn't have the balls to do the right thing and find these 'police officers, these look after all members of the public police officers' guilty of at least man slaughter!

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  16. This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it
     
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Dec 24th, 2013 @ 3:42am

    timcushinghatescops.com

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  17.  
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    Paul Renault (profile), Dec 24th, 2013 @ 3:44am

    OK, let me Godwin this thread right now...:

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  18.  
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    Paul Renault (profile), Dec 24th, 2013 @ 4:13am

    Re: OK, let me Godwin this thread right now...:

    Oops. (Me too, I'll blame the cold.) To continue:

    "..I don’t see anything out of policy,” Rubio said."
    "..I don’t see anything out of policy,” (Josef) Dietrich said."
    "..I don’t see anything out of policy,” (Alberto) Villar said."
    "..I don’t see anything out of policy,” (Joăo Augusto) da Rosa said."
    "..I don’t see anything out of policy,” (Manuel) Contreras said."
    "..I don’t see anything out of policy,” (José López) Rega said."
    "..I don’t see anything out of policy,” (Marco) Mancini said."
    "..I don’t see anything out of policy,” (Billy) Joya said."
    "..I don’t see anything out of policy,” (Efrain Rios) Montt said."
    "..I don’t see anything out of policy,” (Hermann) Georing said."
    "..I don’t see anything out of policy,” (Teymur) Bakhtiar said."
    "..I don’t see anything out of policy,” ...

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  19.  
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    OldGeezer (profile), Dec 24th, 2013 @ 5:17am

    Pisses me off that good cops are vilified because of thugs like these when they do use a justifiable amount of force on some who resists and is actually whacked out on PCP or meth or drunk or even just too large and strong. Nothing about this guy fits that description. He was not on drugs and only weighed 135 pounds and did not appear to be offering much resistance. If you watch Cops regularly you will see that sometimes it does sometimes take more than one cop to subdue a suspect when they resist.

     

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  20.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Dec 24th, 2013 @ 5:47am

    Re: Re: Oh that's /so/ conforting...

    Maybe the officers diminished mental capacity that night was caused by a cold too. Seems more plausible than them thinking they were justified to beat a man to death.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  21.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Dec 24th, 2013 @ 5:54am

    Nothing out of Policy?

    F#8& your 'policies', did you see anything that was illegal?

    Such as six thugs beating a 135lb homeless man to death.

     

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  22.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Dec 24th, 2013 @ 6:02am

    Re: second amendment

    When your life is threatened with deadly force the only way to protect yourself is with deadly force.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  23.  
    icon
    DOlz (profile), Dec 24th, 2013 @ 6:17am

    Learn what words mean before using

    "Defense attorneys also asked Rubio about a part in the video in which Ramos put on white latex gloves and tells Thomas, “See these fists? ... They’re getting ready to f--- you up.”

    John Barnett, who is representing Ramos, asked Rubio if his client’s words were consistent with his training.

    “Yes, it was a conditional threat,” Rubio said. “The profanity may be off-color and may be a slight policy violation.” "

    To be conditional there would have to have been some critia meet before the action took place. This was a promise of violence (fulfilled) plan and simple.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  24.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Dec 24th, 2013 @ 6:43am

    I think we'll soon be seeing US Citizens so afraid of the Law Enforcement ,that It will be shoot first .. honestly when people feel backed into a corner with no protections from the courts or the system I see these bad LEO's making targets of all their fellow Officers I don't condone violence usually I feel we are a truly brilliant species .. but every action deserves a formidable response ..especially when it comes to self preservation .

     

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  25.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Dec 24th, 2013 @ 6:50am

    Re: Re: Re: Oh that's /so/ conforting...

    No, some of them actually believe they are justified in murdering anyone they deem deserving of said sentence - they think they are Judge Dredd.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  26.  
    identicon
    David, Dec 24th, 2013 @ 7:12am

    Re: Within Policy

    "all things considered, I don’t see anything out of policy"

    Anybody care to tell me what Neonazis in America think they are fighting for? To me, it seems like the current regime got all bases covered.

    You'd need masks and props, but other than that, you could just do a documentary about the rise of fascism right in the U.S.A.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  27.  
    icon
    That One Guy (profile), Dec 24th, 2013 @ 7:33am

    Re: Within Policy

    I imagine the 'things considered' was something like this:

    'Well if I call them out for murdering that guy, I'm likely to get booted or harassed out of the department. Not to mention it would sure be nice to have the blue wall of silence on my side if I ever felt like beating the crap out of someone or breaking some law...'

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  28.  
    icon
    That One Guy (profile), Dec 24th, 2013 @ 7:46am

    Re:

    As much as it sucks for the 'good cops', in a very real sense it's their own fault when blame for stuff like this is applied to all of them, as if they'd done their job and kept such psycho's in check and off the force, rather than protecting them by looking the other way, people would probably be willing to cut them some slack.

    I mean for crying out loud, when you've got someone from the police claiming that beating someone to death doesn't violate any of their policies regarding use of force, that's pretty much a straight up admission that murder isn't against the rules for them, as long as they can find some justification for it('he had a weak heart' seems to be the go-to excuse these days).

    If the 'good cops' don't want to get painted with the same brush thugs like this are, then a good first step would be to start policing and paying attention to their own people, not just those without a badge.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  29.  
    identicon
    Philly Bob, Dec 24th, 2013 @ 8:00am

    The problem with a jury jamming their asses in prison would be maybe that they fear retaliation from the authorities in the future. They have their ways of dealing with things like that.
    Maybe they'll be harassed or wind up on some terrorist list or....

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  30.  
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    OldGeezer (profile), Dec 24th, 2013 @ 8:31am

    Re: Re:

    Seems like when news like this comes out it turns out that the corruption goes well up the chain of command like in past years in Los Angeles. I have like in the Wichita KS. for most my life and I have never seen abuse like tolerated or defended by our police department. A few who have stepped over the line faced the consequences even prosecution. I have also seen cops here who acted properly be criticized. A while back an incident was caught on surveillance cameras where a burglary suspect fired a shot at an officer and instead of firing back the continued the pursuit and only when the perp turned around and pointed his gun the and ignored commands to drop the weapon the cop fired and shot and killed him. Even though he gave this guy every chance some criticized him for not shooting him in the leg or something. All police are trained to shoot center of mass when faced with imminent danger to themselves or others.

     

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  31.  
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    jcvillar (profile), Dec 24th, 2013 @ 8:51am

    " . . . all things considered, I don’t see anything out of policy." You sure this isn't Nuremberg testimony you're reading? Go back and check your notes!

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  32.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Dec 24th, 2013 @ 9:31am

    It was not 33 minuets it was inception and you cannot kill someone while dreaming insi, bah fuck it, you know where this is going.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  33.  
    icon
    Andrew Norton (profile), Dec 24th, 2013 @ 10:20am

    Re: Good Cops

    What good cops?

    Good cops don't allow bad cops to continue. Good cops don't shield misconduct behind 'the thin blue line'. Good cops should be actively policing themselves, and getting the bad ones out.

    How often are you seeing that?

    Not very often?

    Not many good cops then are there?

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  34.  
    identicon
    Bengie, Dec 24th, 2013 @ 10:29am

    Intent

    "See these fists"
    Intent to murder

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  35.  
    identicon
    Nobody Important, Dec 24th, 2013 @ 12:14pm

    Enough is Enough

    I understand that the police have a job to do. I believe that the police DO keep random violence from being perpetrated on civilians.

    However, as a martial artist with over 17 years experience & 3 black belts, credentials in physical security for the last 7 years, & considering myself a "normal human" I see no reason that any security group, including police officers, need to use egregious force against an individual. While training we learn to avoid physical conflict at all costs & when we have to engage in violent conflict use the minimal amount of force required to get the job done. One officer having a bit of a problem dealing with an individual can happen, which is why we work in teams (even if they are 135 pounds humans are pretty dangerous animals). 2 officers should be able to at least restrain & subdue a single individual long enough to avoid "injury to themselves & others" without serious violence. 6 officers should have had the Kelly Thomas "packaged & ready for shipment" within 5 minutes with minimal force. Maybe I'm out of touch but it takes me about 15 seconds to cuff a person (using steel cuffs - zip ties are SO much easier).

    I get that people's lives are at stake; however, I don't believe that the life of an officer is in any way more superior to the life of a "civilian". Physical security professionals are paid (pretty well, I might add) to put themselves in harms way in order to protect life, not oppress the disadvantaged. I feel ABSOLUTELY NO SYMPATHY for any officer that wants to claim they weren't prepared for the situation - you signed up for a dangerous job KNOWING it was a dangerous job. Claiming that you were "outgunned" &/or "weren't prepared/trained to handle this level of conflict" is completely disingenuous. If you signed up for the job you'd better be ready to do it.

    Then, for anyone to say it's not "anything out of policy" to spend 35 minutes subduing an individual & in the process killing him is COMPLETE CRAP. When you have to hide behind policy to excuse the loss of humanity & common sense you have completely lost the end goal. There is no reason that all of the officers involved should not be convicted of both felonious assault & premeditated murder.

    Sorry about the rant guys.

    Sincerely,
    Nobody Important

     

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  36.  
    identicon
    Jake, Dec 24th, 2013 @ 12:31pm

    “In the video, all things considered, I don’t see anything out of policy,” Rubio said.


    Then Fullerton Police Department's policies suck giant wet donkey balls.

     

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  37.  
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    btrussell (profile), Dec 24th, 2013 @ 1:16pm

    Re:

    Methamphetamine, like like many other drugs, can be detected with a hair follicle drug test for up to 90 days.

    Need a citation? Try Duckduckgo.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  38.  
    identicon
    just sayin' 2.0, Dec 24th, 2013 @ 2:22pm

    Re: Nice story, but...

    Just cuff him and move on. You don't think six cops could do that?

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  39.  
    identicon
    just sayin' 2.0, Dec 24th, 2013 @ 2:24pm

    Re:

    You are a world class nit picking idiot troll

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  40.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Dec 24th, 2013 @ 2:31pm

    Re:

    That's actually only available in the calendar, and they charge extra for it...

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  41.  
    identicon
    Herman Georhing, Dec 24th, 2013 @ 2:32pm

    Re:

    because...genocide

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  42.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Dec 24th, 2013 @ 3:25pm

    Re:

    "Pisses me off that good cops are vilified because of thugs like these..."

    Good cops won't shield bad cops. Ever.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  43.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Dec 24th, 2013 @ 7:09pm

    Is this one of those cases where you murder someone, and then sprinkle a little cocaine powder residue on their body and blame is on the crack?

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  44.  
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    That One Guy (profile), Dec 25th, 2013 @ 1:48am

    Re:

    Worse actually, given there was no trace of any drugs in his system, they're trying to claim that because he used drugs at some point in the past, just out of nowhere it turned him into this unstoppable juggernaut and required 6 thugs/officers to put him down, 'for their safety' of course.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  45.  
    icon
    OldGeezer (profile), Dec 25th, 2013 @ 3:43am

    Re: Re:

    Wow! I Used drugs 20 years ago and been clean since. Wonder if they will use that to justify beating the shit out of me someday?

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  46.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Dec 30th, 2013 @ 8:16am

    Re: Oh that's /so/ conforting...

    I'm kinda surprised they defended this. When the inevitable wrongful death lawsuit is filed, the best defense for the department would have been to say the officers were acting on their own. But they're now on record as saying the officers were acting exactly as instructed by the department.

    On the other hand, that "best defense" would apparently have been a lie (unless their current position is a lie) so maybe they're better off this way.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  47.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Dec 31st, 2013 @ 3:55am

    Re:

    Know what? I hate cops, too. I respect officers, but cops have got to go. What's a cop? Cop a deal, cop a plea, cop a feel... If you don't get the picture, you never will.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]


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