Man Who Raped 14-Year-Old Sentenced To 30 Days In Jail Because Girl Looked Kinda Old And The Internet Is Mean
from the well-okay-then dept
We’ve seen ridiculous requests and results stemming from the concept of how “mean” the internet is. Recall that Prenda Law wanted all manner of documents sealed because the internet was a cruel, cruel place. To be fair, it isn’t like we haven’t seen our share of stories about jerks on the web. Still, I’m pretty sure the internet housing a bunch of meanie poopy-heads probably shouldn’t factor into the decision to have a former high school teacher who raped a 14 year old girl serve only 30 days in jail.
Now, I know what you’re thinking: that didn’t happen. A guy did not rape a 14 year old student and then only do a month in the pen. Sorry, you’re wrong, and the reasons for it are as absurd as they come.
A Yellowstone County district judge Monday ordered a former Senior High teacher convicted of raping a 14-year-old female student who later committed suicide to spend 30 days in jail. Judge G. Todd Baugh sentenced Stacey Dean Rambold to 15 years in prison, with all but 31 days suspended, for sexual intercourse without consent.
Rambold’s attorney, Jay Lansing, argued Monday for the suspended sentence. He said Rambold lost his career, his marriage and his home and has suffered a “scarlet letter of the Internet” as a result of publicity about the case. The judge also said Morales was “older than her chronological age.”
Okay, let’s take these in order. First, doesn’t even 15 years for a teacher raping a student seem on the light side, particularly when that student subsequently killed herself? Secondly, reducing the sentence from 15 years to 30 days for any reason is insane, but when those reasons are that the rapist has lost his family and job while suffering the wrath of a pissed off internet, the justice train has gone off the rails somewhere. One would think any stories of the internet being so cruel to Captain Rapey as to warrant a reduced sentence would have made it into the public light without the defense attorney’s help. To even make this argument is an insult to our concept of justice and accountability.
Finally, what the hell difference does it make that the girl may have looked older than her peers? Several news pieces on this story have shown the young lady, who certainly did look mature for her age, and I can imagine some nightmare scenario in which an adult unwittingly hooks up with a mature looking young person who is underage and faces the wrath of the court as a result, but this isn’t that scenario. Rambold taught at the girl’s school and had every reason to know and/or believe that her age should have come into question, setting aside entirely the fact that teachers probably shouldn’t be banging their students no matter what age they are.
The internet can be a cruel world, but it isn’t as cruel as a teacher raping a 14-year-old girl. It just isn’t.
Filed Under: internet, punishment, rape, students, teachers
Comments on “Man Who Raped 14-Year-Old Sentenced To 30 Days In Jail Because Girl Looked Kinda Old And The Internet Is Mean”
This is sick...
30 days for rape which led to suicide while some punk teenager makes a random comment on facebook that ends up with him facing 7-8 years in prison?!
What the holy fucking hell, Batman?!
Re: This is sick...
Surely the key word there is “facing”? The person here faced at least 20 years in prison. Which is the appropriate and proportionate exercise of judicial discretion in sentencing comes into play.
————————-
As for whether the sentence is appropriate in this case… at least people could read the article before commenting on how outrageous this is. Surely Techdirt readers should know better than to leap to conclusions on something this serious without doing that much research?
Some more facts gleaned from the article:
– the girl committed suicide some 2-3 years after the relationship (as the trial was dragging on),
– the case was put on hold, with an agreement to dismiss the charges, if the defendant agreed to complete a sex offender treatment program,
– the case was resumed when he was kicked off the program for “minor” violations, including being alone with some of his family, and being in a relationship without telling the staff,
– the judge found that these reasons weren’t enough to warrant a lengthy prison sentence (particularly as the defendant had completed a course elsewhere).
– Perhaps most importantly, an evaluation found he was a low risk of re-offending and could be treated by the community.
So, maybe a month is prison isn’t long enough or maybe it is too long given he was on course for the case to br dropped (although call be a European liberal, but I fail to see how a month in prison could ever be necessary and proportionate).
As for the “The Internet Is Mean” argument, there’s no indication in the article that the judge bought that, it comes from one part of a sentence in one paragraph out of the entire article.
Next you’ll be telling us that killing sprees are caused by computer games because an article on a murderer noted (s)he played certain games…
Re: Re: This is sick...
…child rapist apologist…
Re: Re: Re: This is sick...
depends on where you are, if you read the back story, more of the world would have no issue with her age and the fact she choose to be in the relationship then have issues with it.
having read the backstory and transcripts, I think if this had anything to do with the suicide it was because she felt bad he got in trouble.
this wasnt “forceable rape” it was statutory rape, meaning that by her state law she wasnt capable of making the choice to have sex, yet in some states/countries she would be considered fully capable of making that choice.
this was NOT rape as you seem to define it.
Re: Re: Re:2 This is sick...
Statutory rape still exists on the books as a law, so until that law no longer exists, the criminal justice system has to uphold and defend that law.
The victim’s rapist (yes I’m calling him a rapist deal with it) will spend 30 days in jail. The victim’s family will spend the rest of their lives grieving over their loved one and how the trauma caused by her rapist played a role in her eventual suicide. The rest of the community will spend the rest of their lives wondering if this rapist touched their children. And this judge will have to live the rest of his life knowing he gave a rapist — an admitted rapist, goddamn you — no less than a month in jail for no good reason at all.
The victim (and her family) deserved justice for what that man did to her and that poor excuse of a judge metaphorically raped her corpse. He deserves to get tossed off the bench.
Re: Re: Re:3 This is sick...
I have seen zero evidence that their relationship in and of itself caused the suicide, they should grieve her death and the fact they didnt get her counseling for her issues.
he plead to statutory rape, that is quite different from molesting a child or forcible rape.
and not all states have these laws, mine dosnt, they removed it years ago because it was leading to far more problems then it was solving.
if you read the back story the girl didnt want her persecuted/prosecuted, for her justice would have been leaving him alone and dropping it, its quite likely if this had anything to do with her death, that it was over how the whole thing was handled rather then over them having creepy sex….
but, there is ZERO info about this other then her mother blaming him…..if she knew her kid was having problems, she should have gotten her help…period.
Re: Re: Re:4 This is sick...
My God, are you this big of a scumbag in real life, too?
Re: Re: Re:5 This is sick...
i agree with this sentiment.
Re: Re: Re:4 This is sick...
A 14 year old is in no position to make informed decisions.
They are easily manipulated, conned or groomed.
They are 14 ffs, they have been conned into thinking Justin Beiber is an artist and that Converse is a style of shoe.
BTW… statutory rape… seems legit. Someone cons you out of all your possessions…. statutory mugged
American rape laws are retarded. Their child protection laws are even worse. Converse are BASEBALL BOOTS btw kids. Wore them when I was your age. Yep I was groovy cool and hip too.
Re: Re: Re:5 This is sick...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Age_of_Consent_-_Global.svg
more of the world disagrees with you then agrees with you on 14yo’s being able to concent.
Re: Re: Re:6 This is sick...
Uses third world countries piss poor child welfare laws to attempt to win pedo apologist argument.
Selective viewpoint you have there. Majority of map is 16. Developed world is mainly 16-18.
Every developing country is also moving to around 16-18 years old.
Child welfare laws are more common every day.
Good luck to your kids M8. They probably won’t be safe with a pedo apologist parent. Fuck knows who you will let them be friends with when they are 12 or 13.
Re: Re: Re:7 This is sick...
so spain is a 3rd world country now?
interesting…..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_World
guess you need to edit that to reflect the fact that spain and a swath of europe is 3rd world.
Re: Re: Re:8 This is sick...
Even first-world countries got a lot of idiots, and Spain is winning at the moment!
Re: Re: Re:9 This is sick...
Germany’s consent age is 14, they are certainly not a country of idiots.
The US is 17, the majority of the world (in terms of country count)says 16, but in terms of population is 14.
Use your brain before your mouth (keyboard).
Re: Re: Re:10 This is sick...
wrong germany is full of idiots they are all wrong, hell it must be a 3rd world country, only 3rd world countries are below 16 or 18.
btw the US it verys state to state, 14-18 range from what i have read.
remember these guys know better then anybody else, and know what a 3rd world country is(any country they dont agree with the laws of)
Re: Re: Re:11 This is sick...
It’s just numbers the government pulls out of its butt. If not, then why the varience?
Re: Re: Re:11 This is sick...
Your misuse of punctuation, spelling, and sentence structure leads me to believe that you shouldn’t be criticizing the intelligence of others. You have completely destroyed your own argument, unless you’re from Germany.
Re: Re: Re:12 This is sick...
sarcasm: look it up
Re: Re: Re:3 This is sick...
“Statutory rape still exists on the books as a law, so until that law no longer exists, the criminal justice system has to uphold and defend that law.”
Agreed. 31 days is too short for this case.
“The victim’s family will spend the rest of their lives grieving over their loved one and how the trauma caused by her rapist played a role in her eventual suicide.”
I don’t care. We should not hand out sentences based on how the victim’s family feels about it. And the suicide years later should not have an impact on the sentence, either. We do NOT want the situation where someone feels like they need to commit suicide so their rapist gets a longer sentence.
“The rest of the community will spend the rest of their lives wondering if this rapist touched their children.”
So? If they’re going to wonder about that now, they’d still be wondering about that even if he was sentenced to the 15 years. (And instead of wondering, they COULD try asking their kids [who were high school aged at the time and likely adults by now], although the answer is almost certainly “no”.)
“The victim (and her family) deserved justice for what that man did to her”
No sentence is going to bring her back. Whatever is done to this man is not going to affect her or her family.
“metaphorically raped her corpse.”
No, and you should feel bad for even making this analogy.
Re: Re: Re:4 This is sick...
I think you mixed up Justice and revenge.
The family may want revenge. They at the very least deserve Justice.
Re: Re: Re:5 This is sick...
Justice is good, but justice is cold, emotionless (at least it should be). The second I saw 246 comments I knew there was too much emotion for justice to be determined.
Hell, Tim was far too emotional when writing the article. So emotional that he corrupted the integrity of Techdirt. Remember that article about the girl who killed herself due to online harassment by an adult? Techdirt argued (correctly) that the adult should not be punished more harshly due to the girl killing herself.
Now there’s so much emotion that most of the story is missed. This is why emotion should not play into justice. Emotion leads to mistakes and corruption.
Dude committed statuary rape (can’t get around that). That is the only thing he should be charged with, not the death of the child, especially since the death seems to be unrelated to the situation.
Don’t mistake emotion for justice.
Re: Re: Re:6 This is sick...
you are so wrong, he should be burned at the stake, after having his genitals removed with a hot spoon….and fed to him.
well thats what a bunch of commenters in this thread would like, but then again, they just saw the faux news post tim made and didnt read the back story or any details behind the case…..and didnt care…..14yo, girl, rape=instant rage….nothing else matters.
Re: Re: Re:2 This is sick...
From the article:
“In October 2008, prosecutors charged Rambold with three counts of sexual intercourse without consent”
This is where english pisses me off. It is just too abusively ambiguous. When I read that I think, he didn’t have her consent, but then I remember that the source of consent isn’t explicitly stated, so it could be that the consent he did not have is that of society. BIG difference.
In one interpretation he forced himself on the girl against her will, the other is that she was all for it and he was all for it, but society deemed that she wasn’t alive long enough for her decision to count.
How you can change a word like consent is baffling. If a person gives consent, it is that individuals decision of allowable or unallowable. They don’t magically lose their decision making ability because society decided they aren’t old enough to have that ability.
As for the ‘in other places’ argument, In other places that find a person’s consent is acceptable at a younger age, that person is usually treated as an adult sooner with more responsibilities which in theory causes them to mature fast enough for their decisions to be better informed (on a generalized basis, not an individual one). So that argument doesn’t really apply because the development flow of their young adults is accelerated in various ways. Granted age is a poor assessment of a person’s maturity and decision making ability, that’s how the US is set up right now (A person that wakes up from a 4 year coma at 18yrs old is legally able to buy cigarettes even if they literally are 14 years old mentally).
Re: Re: Re:3 This is sick...
“They don’t magically lose their decision making ability because society decided they aren’t old enough to have that ability.”
The problem is that they never had that decision making ability to begin with. Teenagers that young are not usually familiar enough with social interactions to understand how other people will attempt to manipulate them. They lack the understanding, knowledge, wisdom, and cultural framework to properly analyze the intentions and motivations of those they interact with, making them an easy target for predators.
Re: Re: Re:4 This is sick...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Age_of_Consent_-_Global.svg
funny, must be magic how more countries dissagree with you then agree with you on this.
Re: Re: Re:5 This is sick...
Looks to me like most of the world agrees that a 14-year-old cannot consent. Blue, Green, and Orange combined cover what, 2/3 of the world?
Re: Re: Re:5 This is sick...
Spamming that to justify kiddy fiddling.
Uses third world countries piss poor child welfare laws to attempt to win pedo apologist argument.
Selective viewpoint you have there. Majority of map is 16. Developed world is mainly 16-18.
Every developing country is also moving to around 16-18 years old.
Child welfare laws are more common every day.
Good luck to your kids M8. They probably won’t be safe with a pedo apologist parent. Fuck knows who you will let them be friends with when they are 12 or 13.
Re: Re: Re:6 This is sick...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_World
you need to edit this, clearly spain and some other EU countries are listed incorrectly since they are clearly 3rd world by your standards.
Re: Re: Re:4 This is sick...
Why are they held responsible for what they do criminally but not what they do sexually?
Re: Re: Re:5 This is sick...
Except in rare and particularly heinous crimes, children are not held criminally responsible for what they have done. A person’s record is sealed and/or expunged once they reach the age of 18 – meaning they are NOT held criminally responsible for what they have done.
Re: Re: Re:6 This is sick...
So to what “record” are you referring?
Re: Re: Re:7 This is sick...
From the context, one would assume I meant a criminal record.
Re: Re: Re:8 This is sick...
Exactly. That was my point. If there’s a criminal record, then they ARE held responsible.
Re: Re: Re:9 This is sick...
Er, uhm…do you not understand what sealed/expunged mean?
It means, once they’re 18…there is no more criminal record – it is as if it never existed. In other words…they aren’t held responsible once they become adults.
Re: Re: Re:10 This is sick...
Now you’re qualifying it. Just because the record is eventually sealed/expunged doesn’t change that fact that he was indeed once held liable.
Re: Re: Re:11 This is sick...
Do you think the NSA doesn’t have access to the record?
Re: Re: Re:12 This is sick...
Does not matter what NSA has access to. It only matters what can be used in a court of law. And the sealed/expunged juvenile record of a minor cannot be used in a court of law. As much as you might try to twist the words, it is a plain fact that juveniles are not held responsible for what they did as a minor once they are an adult.
Re: Re: Re:13 This is sick...
I never said anything about what happens once they’re adults. YOU did. But like Grand Moff Tarkin (or is it Governor Tarkin?) said, “This bickering is pointless”.
Re: Re: Re:11 This is sick...
No, you are qualifying it. From your words, one could infer that all juveniles are tried as adults, when that is plainly not the case. Just because the juvenile was held accountable for their actions doesn’t change the fact that they are no longer held accountable once they reach the age of majority.
Re: Re: Re:12 This is sick...
I’m not responsible for what you infer. And you yourself just said, “the juvenile was held accountable for their actions”.
Re: Re: Re:13 This is sick...
Being held accountable for one’s actions until one becomes an adult is not the same as being held responsible for one’s actions for the rest of your life. Minors are not charged as adults for a reason. Minors’ records are sealed/expunged for a reason. No matter what kind of nit you want to pick with my wording, those are just plain, simple facts – facts that support my position more than yours.
Re: Re: Re:6 This is sick...
this is very misleading, many states, as has been pointed out here sell juvenile and adult criminal records to companies that do background checks, even if the person pays to get their juvenile record expunged that dosnt remove the records already in the hands of these companies.
many times it dosnt even remove the court records (despite that being why you pay to have it done)
and 13/14/15yo girls who sent pix of their tits to guys have been made life long sex offenders(as have some of the guys who got the images), no way to get off the list.
theres no such thing as a way to clear your record once your accused of something, much like the internet, anything that happens is there forever.
Re: Re: Re:7 This is sick...
that is an out and out lie.
Re: Re: Re:8 This is sick...
http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20130419/15503622772/washington-state-allows-third-parties-to-brand-youthful-offenders-life-low-low-price-only-69-record.shtml
if you dig around washington isnt the only state doing this, others are following the example because its easy money and the prison lobby LOVE IT, after all, if you cant get a decent job you are more likely to endup in prison.
Re: Re: Re:4 This is sick...
Sorry but I don’t think that is it.
Teenagers have a different brain set up, the prefrontal cortex is not fully developed and that is the region that regulates decision making processes.
NPR: The Teen Brain: It’s Just Not Grown Up Yet
PubMed: Frontal lobe and cognitive development.
They may lack experience, but they are not stupid little creatures with cognitive impairment, they are capable of higher function decision making, the prefrontal cortex is formed and ready for work between 12 and 14 and fully matured at around 25.
They may not be able to fully appreciate the consequences of their actions and decisions but they sure can decide what they like or not although impulsively.
The experience they will gain like everyone else gains experience, by living and as long as it is not really harmful even bad experiences should yeld great lessons, for future use.
Re: Re: Re:3 This is sick...
Lord Binky: something else that hit me during this debate is that, if she murdered somebody, nobody here would be freaking out if they charged her as an adult and held her culpable for her actions.
but because she choose to have sex with a dirty old man, she wasnt culpable for that choice due to age….
our society is pretty fucked up honestly.
Personally, my view is Statutory rape laws and similar laws where theres no consideration taken for anything….i dont like it.
in this case, the guy was out of line, what he did was wrong, he needed and was punished.
but it wasnt rape, and she needed to be held responsible for her choices even if he coursed her into it…
its a life lesson, just like if somebody cons/courses you into giving them all your stuff….its not the other persons fault you are a fool….and its your responsibility to learn from it and not let it happen again.
but alas, thats now how many in our society see it.
many people think women/girls are innocent little flowers that need protected and men are dirty pigs who are always to blame.
Re: Re: Re:4 This is sick...
She wasn’t on trial, the man was. Discuss his actions.
Messed up society? Would she be alive today if HE had done his job and was responsible?
Re: Re: Re:2 This is sick...
…and yet he was a grown man, almost 3 times her age, in a position of authority, a teacher at that, charged with teaching children. This didn’t happen elsewhere, it happened where it happened…
Re: Re: This is sick...
I’m sorry, are you…
Are you fucking DEFENDING THIS?!
GTFO
Right now!
Get out.
Re: Re: Re: This is sick...
I’m not defending it.
I’m stating some facts from the article that aren’t in the above summary, but may be relevant. I’m also suggesting others do the same. I really hope you don’t see anything wrong with that.
Having seen similar stories elsewhere, involving sexual offences and children where the moral panic gets in the way of reason, I thought it appropriate to double-check some of the facts of the case. After reading the article, I am of the opinion that there aren’t enough facts presented to judge this specific case, so I don’t think it is appropriate to comment directly on whether this sentence was right or wrong.
Re: Re: Re:2 This is sick...
So the means can justify the ends, but you’re not sure because you don’t know enough about the means?
Question: Are there any means you can even imagine that would justify this end of a 30 day sentence for the rape of a child?
Re: Re: Re:3 This is sick...
Means don’t always justify ends. But when passing sentence, the sentence should be based on facts and reason, not emotion.
Yes. If greater than 30 days in prison was not necessary to pursue a legitimate aim. So, for example, if there was a zero (or effectively zero) risk of re-offending.
I’m all for convicting the guy of a crime (on these apparent facts); a teacher should know better and the risk of an abuse of position seem high enough to justify a blanket ban on young-student / teacher relationships. But I don’t think that people should be locked up for what they’ve done (that is vengeance or retribution), but for what they might do.
Re: Re: Re:4 This is sick...
Even if it sends a signal to potential future child rapists that if you’re lucky to get this judge in charge of your case, there’s a strong possibility you’ll get just a slap on the wrist?
Re: Re: Re:5 This is sick...
The signal I got was that the girl engaged in consensual sex with an older guy, he didn’t rape anybody, because if he did I am willing to bet that he wouldn’t get that light of a sentence.
Re: Re: Re:6 This is sick...
Then you must be in the minority. Pedophiles (and yes I know the difference between a pedophile and an actual child rapist) will more than likely be emboldened by this case, believing that here, there’s a judge soft on those who have sex with children.
Just to give some background: My father raped two of my sisters as children, although I never did learn the actual details, but even if they had said yes, it’s still an adult having sex with an under-age girl. I was also a child genius who was considered far more mature than his age would indicate, but looking back with hindsight, I’m able to see many decisions I made that at the time I reasoned were correct because “Hey, I’m mature, I’m so smart” but in actuality, because I was too young and didn’t have life experience, were wrong.
Re: Re: Re:7 This is sick...
actually this would be considered Ephebophilia not Pedophilia and would thus enbolden at worst Ephebophiles not pedophiles.
Pedophile: 11 and under(or pre-puberty)
Ephebophilia: puberty and up(clear signs such as tits)
look of traci lords, if you find her images from when she was doing porn, your an Ephebophile if you find her attractive(every strait guy i have met does), if you find 6-11 yo’s in baithing suits attractive, you are a sock pedo fuck.
and Rikuo: hate to tell you this, if you live to be 100 you will look at decissions you made a year before your death and go “oh fuck, that was a mistake”
you live you learn.
like my buddy who pushed for abstinence only sex education in his local school district….then his daughter got knocked up 3 years later…and when he asked why she didnt use protection….neither of the kids involved knew how to use a condom…since then due to an explosion in teen preganancey they have moved back to proper sex ed and even expanded it to detail std’s and such(to scare the kids a bit….once you see herpies sores and shit….ewwww)
again, you live you learn…..
I do agree pedos suck, but, this isnt pedophilia, she was not a “child” in much of the world.(google “age of concent” )
again, it was creepy but it wasnt molestation or rape….
Re: Re: Re:7 This is sick...
Look, rape is a forced act, you either use your authority over others or use force, this appears not to be the case here and even though I have reservations about a 50 years old having a romantic relationship with a 14 years old and I find it creepy and should be discouraged in my view I don’t think it should be criminal unless that 14 years old was being harmed by such relationship which she apparently was not, more harm came from the disclosure than the sex from what I gathered.
The guy was punished, severely in my opinion, he lost everything and will endure a lifetime of abuse from others, what else do you want?
Prison time?
This is not a rape case.
The law call it statutory rape, but it doesn’t involve any kind of coercion or force is just people shocked the large age difference.
If she was shagging another 14 years old would they both being raping each other?
Re: Re: Re:8 This is sick...
if it was a boy shaggin some hot teacher, very few people here would care….but because its a girl, outrage…
Re: Re: Re:9 This is sick...
I have seen lots of articles where female teachers are having sexual relations with students.
One of my friends on Facebook seems to post at least one a week.
Re: Re: Re:10 This is sick...
its become more common to go after then in recent years, but, its also quite common for the law to just ignore it if somebody dosnt raise hell to get them to do something about it.
I have had people admit to this attitude on FB talks about this shit, its OK if its an “under age” boy doing a female adult, but other way around, holy fuck, the male needs burned at the stake!!!
again, i have to say this, I DO NOT CONDONE WHAT HE DID but, it wasnt rape, it was wrong, and he got punished, but so did she, the guilt and fall out likely give her some serious emotional trauma….would have been even worse if they sent him to prison I would bet….and thats likely why the judge did what he did in the first place….
Re: Re: Re:11 This is sick...
You really sound like someone who is trying to justify their own sins.
Are you a sick Pedo fuck?
Re: Re: Re:12 This is sick...
You really sound like someone who has no ability to hold a civil discussion on the merits. Your continued use of ad hom and accusations destroys any merit your comments have.
Re: Re: Re:7 This is sick...
Anybody buying it?
Re: Re: Re:6 This is sick...
Her being 14 makes it rape. Period.
Re: Re: Re:4 This is sick...
If greater than 30 days in prison was not necessary to pursue a legitimate aim. So, for example, if there was a zero (or effectively zero) risk of re-offending.
Replace the work rape with murder and would you feel the same? For example, is your argument that someone killed another person but we shouldn’t put them in jail because he most likely wouldn’t do it again?
But I don’t think that people should be locked up for what they’ve done (that is vengeance or retribution), but for what they might do.
If I had good reason to think you were about to rape someone, should we incarcerate you? Maybe I should phone the police, I don’t know you so for all I know you are about to rape someone RIGHT NOW.
Obviously I’m being facetious since I really don’t know you. It’s a noble sentiment but where do you draw the line with this argument?
Re: Re: Re:5 This is sick...
Yep. Which is why I am opposed to the UK’s mandatory life sentence for murder. I don’t see why people should be imprisoned if that imprisonment is not going to have some positive and proportionate impact on society. If we can be sure (which is the big issue) they’re not going to kill anyone ever again (or break the law again), what is to be gained from locking them up?
If you have reasonable grounds to believe that I’m about to rape someone, of course you should call the police (if doing so is necessary to prevent it)! Why wouldn’t you?
And yes, arresting someone and detaining them in such circumstances could well be proportionate. But that doesn’t mean that locking someone up for 30 days (or 15 years) afterwards is proportionate. As for drawing a line, the great thing about proportionality arguments is that you don’t draw a line. You say the punishment must be proportionate…
Re: Re: Re:5 This is sick...
He must mean “in the presence of a conviction for an actual prior crime”, otherwise it doesn’t really fit in with his argument unless he has a creepy notion of state control. But probably doesn’t.
Re: Re: Re:4 This is sick...
I don’t see the purpose as vengeance or retribution, but deterrence. 31 days is not going to deter some other teacher who might consider the same thing.
15 years might be too long under the circumstances. But 31 days is too short.
Re: Re: Re:5 This is sick...
You think another teacher will engage in a consensual relationship with a minor knowing they will lose their family, job and good name for the rest of their lifes?
Re: Re: Re:5 This is sick...
I get the deterrence argument, but have two problems with it:
Factually, I would need to see sufficient evidence that it worked – that is, that longer prison sentences for a particular crime significantly reduced offending rates. I don’t know if that is or isn’t the case.
Ethically, I have a problem with what amounts to punishing one person for what other people might do… I’m not convinced that that is just.
Re: Re: Re:4 This is sick...
So the teacher didn’t realize what they could be facing, now that they know, they won’t do it again even though they have done it in the past?
A teacher teaching kids didn’t know this? Cue up the Banjos.
Re: Re: Re:2 This is sick...
Duke we had a talk about this on facebook, and a similar case, you will find some people who are going to call you a pedo and such for trying to point out the actual facts of the case, rather then the headlike of RAPE without any more detail.
having read the backstory and such, he was out of line BUT par t of the issue for her was, she was being told she had been taken advantage of and had been raped when, she had consented to the relationship(even if by law she couldnt, dosnt mean she agreed with the law)
No details if this is why she killed herself, and I really dont care….I dont think it could be called RAPE in cases like this, need another word since most people see the word rape and instantly think “violent forced sex” when that was most definitely not the case here….hes a dirty old man, but he didnt rape her by the common definition of the word.
Re: Re: Re:3 This is sick...
So he was convicted of rape but he didn’t rape her. Got it, thanks.
Re: Re: Re:4 This is sick...
This is exactly why words have meaning.
If there was another world in legal terms for it would you be so confused?
Consensual sex is rape where?
Re: Re: Re:5 This is sick...
In the case of a 14 year old who equates high intelligence with wisdom gleaned from life’s experiences. Trust me on this, I went down that road and it was not pretty.
Re: Re: Re:6 This is sick...
And how do you acquire experiences?
By doing nothing? or by experimentation?
The guy was much older and a teacher no less, he should know not to fall for teenagers but it does happen and he was punished for it, severely I might add. The girl probably out of remorse killed herself from what I could find, what that tells us about the system and society? our views killed that young woman, our behavior made it unbearable for her to live in this world and she chose to take her own life, not because she had sex with an older guy but because people were horrified by that notion.
I don’t want to encourage adults having romantic relations with younger underage people, that is not the point, the point is she was in control, she demonstrated that to a judge that would be happy to crucify the guy if she so blinked and she chose not to, maybe it was love, I can’t understand how that could happen, but if a dog can adopt a duck and care for it like her own puppies maybe I should not be so fast to judge what both of them had there.
Maybe this is one of those times that we should show some compassion, it was not a violent thing, she was not under any duress and she apparently cared a great deal about the guy, this is not a coerced relationship, this was not something that was forced, it happened and he got punished for it.
We all experimented, we all try knew things, and we all advance and gain workable knowledge with each and every mistake we make.
The guy obviously should have known better he had way more experience than the girl and he got punished by for it.
That should be the end, no other teacher will want to lose their families, jobs and good name to have an affair with a minor, and it still will happen from time to time, but I don’t believe that those people should be punished as severely as true rapists or pedophiles that is all.
I keep thinking of the girl and why she took her life, and I keep remembering my younger self when the guys bragged about having sex with older girls, it was something to brag about it, there was no shame, there was nothing wrong with it then, why it is so bad now? have people in her community make it so unbearable and shameful that she couldn’t take it anymore? wouldn’t it be better if she could just brag about an affair she had with an old fart? why it is so bad now?
Because it was a girl that chose an older guy?
Would you punish the guy if he was the same age of her for consensual sex?
Re: Re: Re:7 This is sick...
“…no other teacher will want to lose their families, jobs and good name to have an affair with a minor, and it still will happen from time to time…”
Which is it?
Re: Re: Re:8 This is sick...
What do you mean, which is it? Just because somebody doesn’t WANT that out come doesn’t mean it won’t happen.
Re: Re: Re:6 This is sick...
and I know and have known many adults less mature both mentally and emotionally then their own parents.
you cant equate age with wisdom or inelegance with wisdom, some people never grow up, never gain any wisdom.
some people, as a psychology instructor I had like to say, are never ready for a sexual relationship, and some are ready before most people in this country would be comfortable with it.
you cant equate age or intelegance with wisdom because….again some people never learn from life, and others learn from what they have seen others do and dont have to make the same mistakes others have made.
a friend of mine watched how his mother acted and lived her life and learned from it, rather then a string of marriages, he has had 1 thats lasted because he didnt look for “hot” and “money” but somebody he could live with and enjoy being with.
his mother to this day gos from relationship to relationship…and is a total drama queen(shes in her mid to late 60’s and still acts like a stereotypical teen.)
Re: Re: Re:5 This is sick...
Consensual sex is rape where?
Statutory.
Re: Re: Re:5 This is sick...
My point was that you seem to focus on the linguistic definition of the word rape yet you ignore the legal definition of rape. In other words, while you disagree the act wasn’t rape in the English dictionary definition, it was clearly rape in the U.S. Legal definition (hence the charge and the verdict).
In your own words: “this wasnt ‘forceable rape’ it was statutory rape”. So it is rape (legally) even if you disagree it was rape (semantically).
This is exactly why words can have many meanings.
Re: Re: Re:6 This is sick...
Well than the law is poorly written don’t you agree?
Re: Re: Re:7 This is sick...
Even if poorly written…I thought it was the judge’s job to create rulings based on the law, not re-write it completely?
Re: Re: Re:8 This is sick...
What did he rewrite there?
The judge was compassionate with a fool and that is bad?
The guy lost his job, family and will have to endure a lifetime of abuse by the hands of others like yourself for having an affair with a minor and that is not enough?
Re: Re: Re:9 This is sick...
Umm…the statutory rape law? The law that says that if you have sex with a minor, it is to be considered rape since she cannot legally give consent properly, no matter the child’s maturity level? Last I heard, rape was considered a grave offense that is supposed to have years of prison time attached to it.
Re: Re: Re:10 This is sick...
Didn’t he got sentenced?
Didn’t he lost his job, family and will be listed as a sex offender?
He didn’t rape anybody, he had sex with a minor a consenting minor no less with an age old enough to bear a child, not an under developed one.
Re: Re: Re:11 This is sick...
dosnt matter you need to see it from their points of view as fathers of girls, they dont want their daughters having sex, anybody who has sex with girls their age should not just be thrown in prison for life but, burned at the stake….
girls are unable to decide if they want to have sex till they are 16 or 18 or 19…..or till they get married…..
Re: Re: Re:12 This is sick...
Seems to me the law applies to both sexes when talking about the kids.
Re: Re: Re:7 This is sick...
In what way? The law considers it a crime to have (even consensual) sex with a minor since they are not old enough to decide for themselves (statutory). Seems pretty clear to me, it’s the sentencing part I have a problem with as 30 days is far to low for this crime, again in my opinion.
Re: Re: Re:8 This is sick...
The law says arbitrary things which not relate to reality some times.
How do you know that young woman was not capable of rational thought? how do you measure cognitive competence?
The law may be clear, you may have a strong bias towards punishment because of your beliefs by I am not so sure about it.
I see it differently, I see a young woman falling in love with an old fool that should know better and starting a romantic relationship, that somehow the disclosure of that affair if had gone unnoticed may have given her some good memories and some experiences to talk about in the future but the disclosure of such affair made her world unbearable to the point that she took her life. I see an angry mother that would do anything to punish her daughters lover despite any feeling her own daughter might have had for him.
I see a judge that saw a good person do a stupid thing and had the audacity to have some compassion knowing what it would happen to that person, he already lost everything and he will have no future, what else do you want to take from him?
Why would nature make young people capable of having children if they were not prepared?
It seems pretty clear to me that laws in this regard are written more inline with mores than actual scientific data or reality.
A quarter of adolescents have sex an start experimenting as young as 13 years old. The age of consent differs from many countries as low as 13 years old in some parts.
At 14 you start learning calculus, biology, chemistry and is the age where everything is questioned and teenagers start testing the limits of society.
They are old enough to do all that, but are not old enough to have a relationship or decide who their friends or lovers are? that seems odd.
Also about the sentencing, again the guy lost everything because he was stupid and will endure a lifetime of abuse by the hands of others for an affair with a minor that you believe its wrong and you want more?
Re: Re: Re:9 This is sick...
“Why would nature make young people capable of having children if they were not prepared?”
That’s it. Get out. Get off Techdirt. While I can see some sort of merit in the rest of your argument (if I squint my eyes), you have lost all posting privileges. While you’re leaving this site, contact your boss, tell him/her you are a threat to children.
I am not over-reacting, I am simply using logic. You have stated that you have no problem with a grown man having sex with children simply because technically, girls are physically capable of bearing young.
Also, sex between two teenagers is FAR FAR FAR different than sex between a 14 year old and a FORTY NINE year old teacher, who is in a position of authority over her.
Just be glad this isn’t reddit or 4chan. If you had commented there, the insane nutcases over there would have already torn your comment apart and found out everything about you.
Re: Re: Re:10 This is sick...
I have no problem with young people sexually experimenting either with themselves or with older people as long as is consensual.
Why the age of the guy she chose to have sex matters?
Would it be rape if the guy was 15, 16, 17, where is the line there for you?
I have friends that at 12 had sex with their nannies and they seem fine, they even brag about it.
Why it is so terrible? is just your morals that matter is that it?
Again why would nature make you capable of bearing a child at 12 if they couldn’t handle it?
Explain why nature clocks is not aligned with peoples morals.
Is this question to much challenging for your bias?
Re: Re: Re:10 This is sick...
You think biology is not important?
The biological clock of humans is not in sync with our morals, you can get blue in the face and it won’t change that simple fact.
Girls start ovulating between 12 and 14 years old, which means hormones start kicking in and forcing them to become more sexual.
This is why a quarter of all teenager that age actually said they had sex already and are sexually active.
Now if the girl chose and older guy that is wrong why?
Where is the true harm in that aside from the morals of it?
I want to find out where are the harm here.
I remember male friends bragging about having their first experience at very young ages some at the age of 11 with much older women and they seem fine with it for some reason, no harm came from that experience.
Where is the true harm, where is the true cost of all of that?
Do your morals justify harsh punishment for something that may not even have bad consequences?
Re: Re: Re:11 This is sick...
What about the man? He wasn’t 12 or 14, his mind and judgement weren’t under constant attack by newly released hormones. He was forty nine years old for crying out loud, and yet somehow you find no fault at all with him choosing to have a sexual relationship with one of his students, with him being in a position of power over her, no matter how loving the relationship was? If he had been loving at all, he would have said to her “No, you’re far too young, have no idea at all what doing this would entail. If we are truly in love with each other, then we can wait until you’re an adult and are truly capable of looking after yourself”.
Re: Re: Re:12 This is sick...
Hundreds of teachers are punished for the same act every year in the US alone.
Ask yourself why that happens.
Good, honest working people having sex with willing teenagers despite all the risks.
I don’t think they have a choice, the need to reproduce is stronger than morals or written rules. Biology dictates our actions more than our morals and made up rules.
Some cultures have specific names for older female and male adults that engage in sexual intercourse with willing younger boys and girls. A lot of males have their first sexual experience with older women.
The question for me is where is the harm?
I can see the harm of raping someone, you take away their dignity, their self esteem and much more, but where is the harm on sexual experimentation?
Doesn’t concern you that she killed herself apparently because of the community response and not because of the sex?
What would have happened if that relationship was allowed to run its course, would she still be alive?
Re: Re: Re:13 This is sick...
“I don’t think they have a choice, the need to reproduce is stronger than morals or written rules. Biology dictates our actions more than our morals and made up rules.”
You have just denied older people’s humanity. While I wouldn’t want my 14 year old child to be having sex at all (if I had one), I understand why she would be. Then it would be correct to bring in the biological need to reproduce, as hormones are firing in him/her which is something they’ve never felt before. It’s new, it’s unknown and they literally don’t know what to do.
The older people? The argument you’ve just made denies them their humanity, denies that they have any capability whatsoever to be able to think and reason, even when under pressure, like if someone sexually attractive to them is saying they want sex. While many older people do give in to it, they are still making a choice to do so. Your argument says they don’t have a choice, that they are no better than rutting animals who, when in heat, simply mate, because they are not self-aware or sentient enough to be able to discern between right and wrong.
Anyway guys, I’m tired, and I have work in about seven hours. This will be my last comment, so I’m going to sleep.
Re: Re: Re:14 This is sick...
Denies how?
People stop thinking about sex when they get older?
Do people when get old stop being impulsive?
The answer is no, people don’t stop thinking about sex no matter their age, people don’t stop being impulsive in fact after a certain age people start to get more gullible which some attribute to some degeneration of some parts of the brain.
This doesn’t deny their humanity in fact it reinforces it, they are natural creatures and they respond to stimuli in the same manner as others, if you are into same sex affairs and they touch you, you get aroused if your are not you don’t.
We chose to ignore some impulses but we are not always capable of, why do people don’t do diets? why people with diabetes like to eat lots of candy despite the risks of dying or worse getting blind, full of open sores with renal failure and a slow death the do not come before they get demented from all the complications?
He is not alone there, many do abide by those simple rules we impose to ourselves but some can’t do it, is sad really, but does it mean they are bad?
He didn’t rape her, from what I read it was a voluntary relationship, maybe some may want to condemn it, and you appear to me more concerned in punishing the guy instead of looking at the kid to see what happened to her.
She died, apparently she decided to take her own live because of all the pressure coming from the community the acts of the community were the ones that caused irreparable damage not the guy in this case, but you don’t care about that do you?
You are more interested in punishing the guy for being weak and allowed himself to get involved with a teenager.
I don’t care about the guy, he got punished already, the girl though is dead and I want to know why.
Would you accept that maybe if this didn’t come out she could still be alive and happy even if it was with the creepy old dude? or it could never happen?
You don’t seem willing to take into account many of the other options that there are.
If the guy raped that young woman I would want to see him in prison for a long, long time, he didn’t at worse he took advantage of his experience and seduced a young girl that was happy about it thus no harm inflicted and at best he was dumb enough to fall in love with a teenager which would probably get tired of the relationship and move on and could even blackmail him in the future.
Have a good night.
Re: Re: Re:15 This is sick...
please stop speaking of logic and science, they dont want to hear it, they want blood, they want vengeance, that want his guts on a stick….
sadly im not kidding about that, I wonder when one of these guys is gonna make the news for murdering people they find on the sex offender registry…..with how they talk, its only a matter of time.
Re: Re: Re:13 This is sick...
dosnt matter boys and girls are different, girls are delicate little flowers who must be protected, boys are dirty filthy hell spawn who take advantage of girls.
girls are to dumb to make choices about having sex at that age, but boys…..well they are dirty flithy little bastards who take advantage of little girls.
you need to understand things from their point of view, they view girls as needing protected far more then boys, though if they commit a horrible crime, its still ok to hold them accountable as adults for that….jesus says so….
alot of the morals you see from these people are rooted back to american religion and views of women being weak and dumb….
gotta protect them from themselves and males!!!
Re: Re: Re:10 This is sick...
Yeah, good luck with trying to enforce that loss of posting privileges thing.
Re: Re: Re:9 This is sick...
Make any excuse for the age difference that you want – you still have not addressed the imbalance of power in the relationship of a teacher and a high-school student.
Re: Re: Re:10 This is sick...
oh I agree, its creepy and the fact he was a teacher makes it wrong, but, it wasnt rape, and it should be discouraged(strongly discouraged)
Re: Re: Re:10 This is sick...
From all we know she actually could have been the dominant influence in that relation.
You think teenagers are not capable of emotionally manipulating others?
Re: Re: Re:11 This is sick...
A 49 year old adult should be capable of recognizing and rejecting the advances of his 14 year old student. He has 35 more years of life experience than she does.
In addition, he was her teacher. Teachers go through training where they are told in no uncertain circumstances that intimate relationships with students are illegal.
Re: Re: Re:12 This is sick...
I don’t think teacher’s go through the sort of training you think they do…
[Says the husband of a teacher]
Re: Re: Re:13 This is sick...
For what it’s worth, my wife was pursuing a degree in education (until budget cuts and a long talk made her realize that her job prospects were dim and not worth the debt required to finish her degree). So I did not pull that out of my ass – she had to go to a training class where they went over the various laws that teachers are subject to, such as laws that require them to report abuse if they think it has happened to any minor they know. In fact, despite being only a student, she had to have annual criminal background checks.
[says the husband of someone with a half-finished degree in education]
Re: Re: Re:14 This is sick...
as the son of a teacher, till recently this was not the case, and most older teachers are not required to do continuing education or take these training courses.
even then, some men/women are weak willed, even teachers….
i had a teacher you could talk into giving you a good grade even if you turned nothing in the whole term…(loved that class…lol)
Re: Re: Re:12 This is sick...
Yes he should, but could he actually?
Do you know the guy?
Is he a submissive type or an authoritarian?
Was the girl curious? intelligent? dumb? passive? poisonous?
And yes it is illegal, but laws means nothing to biology.
Here is a study about salt intake and the assumptions that we made about how bad it was to consume too much.
Quote:
UC Davis: Salt intake physiologically set in humans, new study finds
No police can change that can it now?
If the girl was 20 and he 55 would make it legal, but you still be creeped out wouldn’t?
But it was a girl that biologically was ready to start sexual relations from a biological point, but not from polices in place.
It happens all the time, we try to discourage and yet every month it seems some teacher is caught having sexual relations with some students and it doesn’t matter if the teachers are male of female both do it.
Do you ever get curious about why that happens?
I believe it is hardwired in all of us, so although laws say one thing biology tells us another. This is why so many adult teachers get caught doing it despite all the risks, the drive to reproduce is stronger than laws and police.
Maybe despite being objectionable we should not criminalize those type of things, maybe more harm comes from disclosure of such things, then from letting it happen naturally, with one caveat it needs to be consensual, without pressures from the adult part.
The girl apparently killed herself because of the community not because of the sex, which could have ended up as just a good memory for her, but it turned into an unbearable nightmare.
I am more concerned about the health of the kid than on the morals of it all. I don’t condone it, I don’t do it and I don’t think I ever will, but reality is, that it happens, In this case the teacher doesn’t seem to be a bad person and it appeared to care about her and she reciprocated where is the real harm in all of it?
What if the right course in this case was to let it happen and end naturally like any other relationship?
She move on, brag about how she had a thing with an older guy and move on, instead everybody knew, the environment turned toxic and she killed herself.
Is that the best outcome really?
Re: Re: Re:13 This is sick...
“without pressures from the adult part.”
There is simply no way at all there can be no pressure from the adult if the adult is a teacher in a position of authority over her.
Re: Re: Re:14 understated
Agree…
Even just being older is a massive position of power.
Being her teacher is way, way more powerful.
Re: Re: Re:14 This is sick...
Why didn’t she when in a safe environment away from his authority told others so?
She chose to end her life because of the other pressure that came from society, not from her adult lover why?
You think that judge wouldn’t want to punish the guy severely, he is no different from others, he would love to do the right thing and defend a teenager girl from a bad adult, why would he go against the grain, she must have convinced the judge of something what was it?
Does that teacher have any connections with the government? is he related to the judge? where they friends?
I know you want to believe he is bad and he did something wrong, but it doesn’t make it so.
Re: Re: Re:13 This is sick...
So now the bad thing is not a teacher possibly grooming and essentially raping a 14 year old. It’s the reaction and punishment of the person in power, the person with a greater mental capacity.
14 is too young to consent of free will.
This was not two 14 year olds, “I’ll show you mine if you show me yours” experimentation of peoples with similar mental capacities and life experience. It was a man abusing his position of power to have sex with a 14 year old girl.
Do you even remember how gullible and easily manipulated you were at 14 years old ?
At 14, How many years ago was it that you stopped believing in santa ?
Re: Re: Re:14 This is sick...
I’m going to divulge something of myself. I said earlier in this article that my father raped two of my sisters. Here’s a little more detail. When I was 12-13, my elder sister came out with the story, complained to the police, and my father was removed from the home.
For years, I defended him and believed him to be innocent. I defended him saying that he had always been nice to me, whereas my sister had bullied me. That made perfect sense when I was 13. There were other signs, actions he took that any rational older person would have picked up on and been alarmed about, but me in my youth and inexperience didn’t.
Today, I now know that the reason for her bullying was that she needed to act out against her abuser, but couldn’t because he was more powerful than her, so she chose me because of my support and closeness with him. While not actually excusable, it is certainly understandable.
Re: Re: Re:15 This is sick...
And now are you trying to make up for that, by trying to punish anything that looks like a duck?
Your sister was raped, your father deserves no respect, the teacher didn’t rape that girl, at worst he exploited her and at best he really had feelings for the young one.
But is not important to distinguish between rape and consensual sex is it?
Re: Re: Re:16 This is sick...
nope because his sister was raped, and thus this man must burn…he will only be happy when this guy gets killed by some psycho who sees his image/name/addy on the sexoffender registry.
Re: Re: Re:14 This is sick...
Yes, I do, I also remember that I wouldn’t have sex with someone I didn’t like, I remember all the dumb stuff that I did, which actually helped me be less dumb.
You experiment, fuck up and move on.
What killed the girl, the sex with the old perv or the public reaction?
Re: Re: Re:15 This is sick...
What if he had done the right thing and didn’t have sex with her? Would public reaction still kill her?
Re: Re: Re:14 This is sick...
Older doesn’t mean great mental capability, nor doesn’t mean emotional maturity, a lot of the adult population is not emotionally mature to deal with anything, most don’t even know where to start hence the suscess of self-help books and the proliferation of psychologists and psychiatrists everywhere.
If you had to deal with teenager all day long and interact with them for years would you not pick up some of their traits?
The environment you are in dictates how you behave or at the very least can influence your behavior.
People probably have noticed and named teachers who have become child like in the work place.
Re: Re: Re:13 This is sick...
not acceptable, they should have executed him in front of her to show her and the rest of the world what kind of vengeance to expect if you have sex with somebody the law says isnt able to make rational decisions about sex.
they should have cut his junk off with a hot spork, cooked it and fed it to him, then killed him slowly as she watched and was told he wouldnt take advantage of her again.
im sure that would have been better for her, her mother and society as a whole.
after all, she was 14, far to young to be in any way ready to fuck.
Re: Re: Re:9 This is sick...
but havent you read the above comments, only 3rd world countries like spain have AoC that low
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_World
clearly this list of first/second/3rd are very very wrong and need edited by the experts here on techdirt to fix the flaws that show spain and some other countries with 13 AoC in their proper 3rd world placement.
Re: Re: Re:9 This is sick...
“Why would nature make young people capable of having children if they were not prepared?”
Are people with a severe mental handicap capable of having children?
Re: Re: Re:6 This is sick...
Consent matters — that is the key, and it’s suppressed in this article.
The word rape is inflammatory because in the case covered by the article it appears to be only statutory rape. Not the same as violent forced sex. One usually calls it statutory rape so that people know what you’re trying to get across, just like we have the Canadian dollar.
And then there is murder, voluntary manslaughter, involuntary manslaughter, wrongful death and so forth. It is a matter of degree. Getting the degree right is part of the responsibility of a sober judgement.
Re: Re: Re:7 This is sick...
The consent of a minor is deemed invalid because minors, due to their age, have not had the life experience necessary to gain the wisdom to make certain choices correctly. I don’t care if it was completely consensual on her part, she’s under-age, doesn’t know what she was getting herself into (no amount of maturity or intelligence will help here).
The only way the maturity of the child should have played a part in this case if the girl was the reincarnation of an adult with all the memories of that adult.
Re: Re: Re:8 This is sick...
you must not know many adults who are immature and never grow up or learn from their life experiances….where to you live, i would love to move there….because at least 1/3 of the adults I deal with day to day are fucking idiots.
Re: Re: Re:9 This is sick...
If at least 1/3 of adults you deal with are idiots, and those adults were once children, then what ratio of children do you think are idiots? Certainly it is greater than 1/3, unless you think that people become less mature and experienced as they age…
Re: Re: Re:10 This is sick...
In this case the girl was and idiot then?
Answer you don’t really know, you didn’t talk to her and you probably are not capable of making that evaluation yourself.
Also I am curious do you think every idiot adult should pass some test for cognitive competence and have his or hers rights revoked based on those tests?
A idiot adult woman that has consensual sex with and older man should have to see her lover being arrested and put in prison is that your view?
Re: Re: Re:11 This is sick...
Uh…not sure what any of that has to do with what I said. AzureSky claimed many adults are idiots. I pointed out, if adults are idiots, certainly children are no better.
All the rest of that stuff in your comment is basically you putting words in my mouth, therefore I feel no need to defend myself against it, except to point out that I did not in fact say any of that.
Re: Re: Re:12 This is sick...
many adults never learn from experience, we all know people like this, even if we dont want to admit it, they can be good people but just really dumb in some ways.
like the kinda people who go out and drink to excess and then cry about horrible hangovers….they never seem to learn from it….others do learn from it and dont drink to excess…
yes the above example isnt directly related but, its a common thing that we all see…..to this day, i see people I knew in highschool decades ago who STILL go out and get drunk as hell then cry about hangovers…
they do not learn from experience…..where I have also seen kids who watched what others did and learned from it so they didnt make those mistakes themselves.
you cant judge maturity or wisdom only on age…again some people can age without ever maturing or gaining any wisdom along the way.
perhaps we need a set of tests somebody has to pass to be allowed to have sex, if you never pass you never get the right to have sex legally, anybody who has sex with you and yourself get in legal trouble if they do…..
would you be ok with that?
Re: Re: Re:13 This is sick...
I see where you’re trying to go with this. But it doesn’t work. Society has to draw a line somewhere. There is a minimum age before you can go to war. There is a minimum age before you can drive a vehicle. There is a minimum age before you can drink alcohol.
Certainly, some people can engage in these activities while under the minimum age, and they aren’t hurt by the activity; I was certainly capable of driving a car safely before I was 16. In other cases, the minimum age is unreasonably high, so that it is not treated with any respect; pretty much everyone has drank alcohol while under the minimum age.
Unfortunately, the minimum age restrictions are in place for a good reason. While some people can engage in these activities without harming themselves, most cannot. Various societies try to decide upon this age based on their belief of when a significant proportion of the population at that age would not be harmed by the activity. While various societies may not agree universally on the particular age, they do appear to universally agree that there should be a minimum age.
Re: Re: Re:14 This is sick...
What good reason was there to have her entire life exposed like that promoting self termination?
What good reason is there to send a that man that was already punished and his life ruined without any harm done?
Maybe is time to revisit those old assumptions and tweak it a bit so young people are not public humiliated to satisfy the adults thirst for blood.
Re: Re: Re:14 This is sick...
then can you explain why the AoC is different state to state country to country?
is as some above insist spain a 3rd world country and thats the reason their AoC is 13?
or could it be their society views sex in a less theistic light?
alot of our laws about age and sex are directly related to victorian values our religious population follow.
many states raised the AoC to combat problems created by their religious drive for abstinence only sex education rather then, you know, teach kids to use condoms and how to avoid getting knocked up/getting somebody knocked up.
(sadly im not kidding about the above….wish i was..)
I do no condone what this asshole did, I dont agree with it, but it was not rape….it was abuse of power and position, and he needed punished, he has been, and better yet, and this should make everybody here very happy, hes marked for life, he will never be able to get a decent job, or live in a decent area, hes a sex offender, he also will always be at risk of some vigilanty deciding he needs killin.(its happened quite a bit in this country)
he didnt get off scott free despite what the post implys (read the story not the blerb tim posted.)
again, to make it clear, I think he needed punished, I do not agree with what he did, I just dont believe its rape….not as our society invisions rape.
he didnt force her to have sex with him….he conned/coerced her but thats not rape…if it was many guys here would be in jail for coercing women into having sex with them…..(according to many neofeminists that is rape, as is all hetero sex…)
hes been punished, hes going to be punished the rest of his life, hes a registered sex offender….do you really think hes going to have a decent life with that on his record for life?
Re: Re: Re:7 This is sick...
…appears to be only statutory rape…
I understand your argument of the degree, but that doesn’t excuse the fact that a 30 day sentence is woefully too low for even the lowest degree of rape.
To be clear, the word rape is not inflammatory. What’s inflammatory is to say things like ‘it’s ONLY statutory rape’ as if some kinds of rape are somehow OK or excusable.
Re: Re: Re:8 This is sick...
Of course calling consensual sex statutory rape is inflammatory.
What harm comes from two consenting parties about doing something?
In this came more harm came from the law and societal bias than the sex they had there.
You think a lifetime of pain by being labeled a sex offender for having consensual sex is not enough?
Re: Re: Re:9 This is sick...
I agree.
Re: Re: Re:8 This is sick...
if you read the actual story and back story, and I find calling statutory rape, rape very inflamitory, as it implies that he threw her down/beat her up/threatened her into sex…..thats not the case.
this case is creepy and wrong but again, not rape….
and again read the full story, he did treatment, completed it (was kicked out of one program for minor violation of their rules and completed it via another provider) what hes being jailed for is not rape/statutor rape but for being kicked out of one program despite getting into another and completing it.
Re: Re: Re:9 This is sick...
“minor violation of their rules”
I love the detail you put in to exactly what rule he broke there. Shall I inform and teach the class? He was alone with family members who just happened to be children. This is a man who has been determined, who has confessed to having sex with children, and thus, he was told that for the protection of children, he was not supposed to be left alone with them.
I wouldn’t call letting a man known to have had willing sex with a child alone with other children a minor violation of the rules, family or not.
Re: Re: Re:10 This is sick...
the judge ruled it was a minor violation, sorry that bothers you.
and the fact is, the treatment providers evaluated him and ruled him a low risk, he also had a relationship with a woman, something many treatment programs do not allow, but do not bother to tell people they dont allow.
he was accepted into another program and completed it.
and you are acting like hes a pedo, hes not, at worst hes an Ephebophile (14-19yo age range) and, the court im sure recognized that as well, or he would have done more time.
I love how you conflate 14yo with little kiddies….please tell a group of 14yo girls they are teh same as 0-11 year olds and see how that turns out for you….
Re: Re: Re:9 It's rape
1) I could walk out into the street
2) Approach 99% of any 14 year olds I see
3) Get them to empty their pockets
4) Get them to consent to giving me their pocket money
5) ???????
6) profit
It’s still robbery tho, isn’t it.
Re: Re: Re:10 It's rape
But those 14 year olds might be packin’ a gat and bust a cap in your butt, homie.
Re: Re: Re:11 first time itt
lol’d
thanks for looking out for me.
Re: Re: Re:12 first time itt
the sad part is, some places in this country, that hes not joking 😛
Re: Re: Re:10 It's rape
If you legitimately need the money for bus fare, it’s charity. If you do it forcefully, threaten their lives and such, it’s theft. If you convince them that you run their local church or something and need a donation, it’s fraud.
You will have to be far more specific then just “get them to consent”.
Re: Re: Re:4 This is sick...
That happens more often than you might think.
Re: Re: Re:3 This is sick...
At least Azuresky and Duke, the rape apologist/pedophiles didn’t comment as ACs.
Re: Re: Re:4 This is sick...
I’m too lazy to register.
Re: Re: Re:3 This is sick...
All I can say is if someone with a mindset like you ever even get near my 14 year old daughter, your will better be on file somewhere.
Re: Re: Re:4 This is sick...
better keep your kid out of a good portion of the rest of the world if you dont want to risk her having sex legally before shes 18 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Age_of_Consent_-_Global.svg
enjoy…and again be sure to not let her leave your state, each state has its own age of concent, an some may be low enough you feel your daughters being “Raped”
Re: Re: Re:5 This is sick...
seems like I’m in a conversation with a rapist or a rapist wanna-be. Who’s the pretty you’ve been grooming? Are you just waiting for that “magic moment”?
Re: Re: Re:6 This is sick...
again, never said I agreed with it, infact this case is quite creepy, but its not rape.
he did treatment, completed it, hes not considered a threat by treatment providers or the court, the girl did not want him persecuted, it likely caused her mental distress that he was…
IMHO the fact that most of the world finds our laws insane should give us a clue that there may be a problem.
Re: Re: Re:7 This is sick...
It’s rape. Will ask you again.
If I con you into giving me all your possessions. You were not robbed ?
You would consent to being fucked by bubba in a prison cell
It wouldn’t be rape then ?
Also…
Your pedo propaganda persecution complex is showing.
Pedos are misunderstood and persecuted for wanting to sex vulnerable and easily manipulated kids who do give consent.
LOL..bullshit detector overload.
Re: Re: Re:8 This is sick...
if you con me out of all my possessions, it was my fault for being conned, live and learn, I have been conned out of things, and i learned from it.
i wouldnt concent to being fucked by anybody so thats moot.
sorry, this dosnt count as pedophilia, look up the definition, 0-11 is pedophilia 14-19 is Ephebophilia, and, in our system, anybody even accused of a sex crime ends up persecuted, because once accused, your fucked, even if your found innocent, its out there and a background check will show it, makes it hard to get work, ask anybody whos been there….
i got a good friend who was accused when he was in Ohio, a girl in Washington state accused him of rape during that time, he cant find a decent job now because background checks show he was accused…..never mind the fact that they dropped the case the day of trial, (after he refused a last minute plee offer)
hes not even on the SO regestry and hes got these problems, how do you think it effects people who are on the registry?
murderes have an easier time getting work then somebody whos even been accused of a sex crime….
good to see your for life long punishment for select crimes or even accusations but not others.
you say it was rape, I say it was an abuse of possition and influanc, that he was punished for….and will be for the rest of his life……
Re: Re: Re:4 This is sick...
Every man dies. Not every man lives.
Re: Re: Re:2 This is sick...
I have to agree. As awful as this is the problem seems to be that he wasn’t charged with rape at all. It sounds as if they didn’t have enough evidence and dropped charges if he agreed to complete a sex offender program. The 30 day sentence is for his failure to complete that program. The whole thing is very tragic and if he is guilty he should be held accountable.
Re: Re: Re:3 This is sick...
he failed to complete at the first location, he completed at another from what i have read,thats part of why the sentience was so light.
again, I think we can agree, this was creepy, and he needed smacked around for it, may even have needed the treatment, but it wasnt rape as people invision it.
Re: Re: Re:4 This is sick...
So if I con you into giving me all your possessions. You were not robbed ?
What would be worse for you.
Waking up every day knowing you are a sucker who was stupid and got conned ?
Remembering that time you were mugged at knife point ?
The whole, statutory rape bullshit demeaning it to a lesser crime is retarded. It’s probably worse. They have to wake up every day thinking that they are stupid to be manipulated.
BTW… 14 year old is in no position to give consent. She was groomed/raped.
Re: Re: Re:5 This is sick...
nope, if you conn me out of my possessions i was not robbed I was stupid and leanered a lesson.
just as if you con a girl into having sex with you, you didnt rape her.
and, neither would be worse, they would both be lessions life teaches.
how do you know they feel they where conned into sex?
having read comments by girls who had sex with older men at those ages most dont feel they where conned…..infact most of them say they got what they went after….
some say they where stupid and should have waited, but have yet to see one say they felt like they where stupid and it ruined their lives….(part of an fb group where we talk about alot of this stuff, several of the girls/women talk about this stuff quite openly)
and the girls would laugh at you saying 14yo’s are to young to give consent….feel free to look up the group “Gender Discussions” on facebook and join, feel free to tell them they where conned and are stupid and wherent able to choose to have sex at 14….i will enjoy them taring you apart…(mind all are over age now before you accuse me of anything)
Re: Re: Re:6 This is sick...
So ‘Gender discussions’ is that where you groom your 14 year old sex partners?
You are one sick fuck. You should be investigated.
The NSA will be forwarding your comments and address along the the FBI momentarily.
Re: Re: Re:7 This is sick...
doubtful since im neither a pedo or sicko.
but let them come on over, let them check the group out, you will find no children or young adults there.
grow up, stop using adhom’s to attack me just because I dont agree with your views and opinions.
Re: Re: Re:2 This is sick...
It’s not moral panic. It’s EMPATHY.
If you had kids you would understand that a child is a vulnerable person. You would empathize with their state of being. You would empathize with their family.
NOT empathize with the adult who through sexual desire ruined a child’s life and got away with it. Like what happened in this case. That is a fact.
The proof of a ruined life is not that she killed herself later.
The proof is that a grown man had a sexual relationship with her.
Not being able to prove that she killed herself solely because she was raped is IRRELEVANT. The whole getting raped at 14 ruined her life and mental status for sure. May have even caused physical harm too.
Consent can not be considered to be given.
A 14 year old to be blunt, hasn’t got a clue and is manipulated easily.
Implying that rational and logical reasoning should completely remove empathy from criminal justice…. is irrational and illogical in itself.
Justice is empathy based.
Some laws are moral judgement based and must be adhered to for laws sake, not justice’s sake or revenges sake. (like getting caught smoking weed, no empathy reason, no revenge reason just a moral reason for punishment)
Teacher abusing position of power and raping 14 year old girl. Requires justice and some revenge. 31 days is not justice for the girl.
Re: Re: Re:3 This is sick...
funny, i have watched many 14yo’s be the manipulator of their parents and others….
your kids must be pretty fucking sheltered and stupid if you think they cant think for themselves.
yes some are pretty stupid, but so are many adults….male and female….
and you didnt read the actual story, so your “not justice for the girl” comment….invalid.
he was wrong, he did something very wrong and very very creepy, but it wasnt rape, and very likely the reason the judge didnt throw the book at him….the girl it seems didnt want that(from what i read) and it likely would have caused her more emotional stress/damage if he where tossed in prison for 30years(or life) as many of you would like.
I have empathy for both of them, for her because, either way, she got the short end of the stick, and for him because, no matter what happens, his life will suck till it ends….hes a registered sex offender, hes not going to be able to get a decent job, live in a decent community….even though it seems the court and treatment providers feel hes not really a threat to anybody…..
perhaps for him it would have been better if they had the death penalty for statutory rape, it would have made many people happy, and would have given them a sense that the girl got justice.
and he wouldnt have to live a life where hes gotta look over his shoulder constantly wondering if somebody is gonna try and kill him because hes a sex offender.
Re: Re: Re: This is sick...
Don’t you want to know the whole truth whatever it is?
GTFO right now!
See how useful that is.
Want to start a flame war? fine by me.
Some people want rapists to die, I want them to die after all the facts come to light first.
There are things that could have attenuated the circumstances, like the girl being the one who actually started the seduction and he fell for it and even though it was consensual on both parties by law it is labeled as rape.
From reading the original article it seems he had a relationship with a minor, and from the low grading he received is probably safe to assume that he didn’t rape anybody.
I am all for strong punitive measures against real rapists, people who go out there and rape others by force or intimidation, this does not appear to be the case and we probably never know, but I am not punishing anybody for having consensual sex with others even if that other is a minor that is probably experiencing and discovering her own sexuality, it may be wrong to engage a minor no doubt but it is not rape either and he probably suffered enough punishment for what he did there and will continue to suffer more as he is required for the rest of his natural life to register as a sex offender opening him up for all kinds of abuse that will emerge from a society that doesn’t know the meaning of compassion once you are labeled a rapist or something no matter what shades of grey there are.
Why did she killed herself?
Was it because of him rapping her or shame of what others were saying to her about her relationship with an older guy?
If the later the person who put this in public is probably the responsible party for her suicide and not the guy.
Not everything is black and white.
Re: Re: Re:2 This is sick...
well said and if you dig a bit you can find the back story on this, no links here(have them at home i think) but, this was statutory rape not rape rape for lack of a better term.
its still a big….creepy but, he didnt force himself on her, and, as many storys like this show, the girl many times feels very bad the guy got in such trouble and that they are being told they where victims when they dont feel they where.
way I see it, we need a new term for it rather then rape, and we need different punishments.
recent story http://www.marieclaire.com/world-reports/news/teen-sex-offender
shows a situation where the same kinda laws where used to persecute and ruin a guys life who was just a few months to old to be dating the girl…..her mother caused the issue because she was in an arguement with her daughter, after she found out what she caused….well she feels horrible(she should)
mind the 2 are married and have like 3 kids now…and hes still trying to get off the sex offender registry…despite everybody knowing hes no threat to anybody.
read the story….and realize there are thousands/tends of thousands/hundreds of thousands of similar cases out there….
Re: Re: Re:3 This is sick...
This is not about a guy who was just a few months too old. This is about a teacher, roughly 50 years old, having sex with a 14-year-old student.
Even if the student came to him and tried to initiate the relationship, he should have known better. He should be able to foresee the consequences that will happen to the girl.
Re: Re: Re:4 This is sick...
Yes it was wrong on his part and he got punished.
What losing your family, job and being labeled a pedophile for the rest of your life is not enough for a stupid affair with a teenager?
You want him to be raped in prison, tortured, or killed?
Re: Re: Re:5 This is sick...
Losing family and job is supposed to matter when it comes to deciding how many years you get?
So here’s a hypothetical. Insider trader for a huge corporation commits a financial crime of a huge sort, costs his company billions, due to some gross stupidity on his part. His name is known, thus unofficially blacklisted from working in that area ever again (who would hire someone so stupid?) He can’t pay the mortgage on his mansion because his money has been seized, his wife divorces him.
Would you then allow this to factor in the amount of time this guy should serve behind bars?
Re: Re: Re:6 This is sick...
Rikuo: in cases like this, the whole situation needs taken into account.
its quite likely the reason they dealt with it as they did years ago was that it would cause the girl more mental harm if they threw the book at him then if they cut him a break.
Also part of the system is punishment, he lost his home, family, carrier(and justly so), he is now branded a sex offender FOR LIFE, meaning hes gonna have trouble finding meaningful work, he had to do treatment(and im sure pay for it out of what little he was likely able to make as a sex offender)
hes a marked man, anybody who googles his name will find hes a sex offender, and most will assume violent rapist or child molester, He did not get off scott free…
and he will pay for his stupidity the rest of his life.
Re: Re: Re:3 This is sick...
There are many horror stories on the net about what is effectively teen-to-teen sex across the age barrier leading to imprisonment and registration.
When I was a kid no-one thought about this. We were free to do what we wanted. The only people we had to fear were our parents.
Re: Re: Re:3 This is sick...
To the person that used the term “blanket ban” on student teacher relationships. Sorry, it’s not a ban. It is against the law in most states. And that law even continues to after the child graduates in some states. Why? Because the teacher holds a position of power in the child’s life. They are a figure of adulation and have sway over a developing mind. So, he didn’t force himself onto the girl. But, imho, he physiologically raped this poor girl. Even if she came onto him, he used his position to further her infatuation. The mere fact that this grown man couldn’t say no to something HE KNEW TO BE WRONG AND ILLEGAL should be a very blatant warning that he is not a “zero (effectively zero)” risk individual.
And I’m sorry, there is no such thing as a “mature” 14-year-old child. They think they are all that and know anything/everything. But it’s just not true. The laws are in place SPECIFICALLY for that reason. The child does not know the full extent of their actions and the ramifications because of them.
Re: Re: Re:4 This is sick...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Age_of_Consent_-_Global.svg
i suggest you stay within the US as more of the world has 13-14yo age of consent then have ages you would feel comfortable with.
Re: Re: Re:5 This is sick...
looks at map of where this trial was yup, in the US.
I’m also going to take your avatar into consideration and use it to judge your personality and why you’re defending having sex with a 13 year old person.
Feel free to move to Angola or any of those other countries in Africa where they feel no need to protect their children.
And to expand on your statements… perhaps we should still have eye-for-an-eye punishments. Other countries do it.
Or maybe we should still have slavery… other countries do it.
Or maybe we should stone people… other countries do it.
Trying to use a red herring argument gets you nowhere, so stop using them.
Re: Re: Re:6 This is sick...
I’m glad I’m not the only person who noticed the avatar.
Re: Re: Re:7 This is sick...
google “low leg” i find the image humorous, the fact it bothers you is irrelevant.
Oh and i never said i agreed with it, I just find it odd how our country is one of the few with laws like this and such high age of concent.
i prefer women closer to my own age honestly, they tend to be more stable then young ladies.(mentally that is)
I just dont feel it should be called rape.
another thing to point out, till faily recently, some states had laws saying 13/14 was the age of consent, many in recent years have upped that in an attempt to stop the explosion in teen pregnancy, this is especially true in red states where they teach abstinence only sex ed….you know, “dont have sex”….teens dont learn to use condoms so…they dont use them…then girls get knocked up and its the boys fault….
Re: Re: Re:8 This is sick...
Yeah… that’s it.
The reason consent is not 13 is to stop teen pregnancy.
Has nothing to do with a 13 year old having a severely under developed brain and mental capacity or anything. It has nothing to do with kids being easy to manipulate… It’s to stop teen pregnancy.
Kids believes in santa because they are kids.
14 year olds have their own traits because they are 14. Including being easily manipulated into having sex with a person who is in a position of power.
Would you defend a priest who raped a 14 year old boy too ?
Even if the 14 year old boy was not “forcefully raped” ?
Hurr durrr consent …. You would consent to being fucked by bubba in a prison cell
Cause you got a choice… you do. Honestly.
Re: Re: Re:9 This is sick...
I dont defend this guys actions, I just dont feel it was rape.
as to a 14yo boy and a priest….his own fault for allowing it to happen, sorry but, IMHO 14 is old enough that he/she need to take responcibility for their own actions.
if they killed somebody they would be charged as adults, if they sent somebody nude of themselves they would be charged as adults, yet, they are considered to young to decide if they wana fuck somebody…..dosnt that seem odd?
oh yeah, and good to know you feel spain is a 3rd world country….
and that states that changed the law in recent years from 13 to 16 or 18 did it because magically girls got dumber…..amazing….good to know that people are getting dumber and less responsible for their own decisions with regard to sex, but if its murder or theft or sending nude pix of themselves, they are adults and culpable for their actions.
Re: Re: Re:6 This is sick...
And if Amerikkka was so interested in truly protecting its children, it wouldn’t allow them to be killed in the womb, much less enshrine it as a “right”.
Re: Re: Re:7 This is sick...
Abortion is the best thing ever. I had 8 last year. So convenient. Much better than taking the pill.
Re: Re: Re:8 This is sick...
Excuse me, you’re not that Tosh dude, are you?
Re: Re: Re:4 This is sick...
“It’s not a ban. It is against the law…”. Wait, what????
Re: Re: Re:2 This is sick...
implying he didn’t groom her.
Holy fuck, you have lived this long in this world and never heard of people being conned and manipulated ?
Re: Re: Re:3 This is sick...
doubt he had to, you must not be around many teens in this country in recent years….
I see them regularly flerting with guys, wearing whore gear/slut gear, hell, you would be shocked what I see out th window at work….they get off the school buss and look like its full of hookers…..(makes me wana gag honestly)
at least 1/2 of them dress that way and act that way….i dont condone it but I dont pretend its not a fact….
cops here catch lots of under age girls drunk at parties, again i dont condone it but, they do it…many have fake ID’s and get into bars and clubs…..
sorry but teen girls are not clueless little angels who cant understand what they are doing….many of them are as predatory as males out looking for some ass….yes even at 14…perhaps ask some women from recent generations who are now past that age but remember what it was like….I think you will find that, many of them where “on the make” as it where even at that age….
again, i dont condone it, but, I also dont pretend its not true because that makes me feel better.
its also why I dont go out and pickup women or even flert with women I dont know are over age….because the risk of being labeled pedo/exct is just to great….its not worth the risk…..
specially in states where they have statutory rape laws…..in those states you can meet a girl who looks 25 has an id saying shes of age….and still endup a sex offender if the id was fake…..google it, its quite common now days…and its caused me to decide, dating/flerting/exct arent worth the risk…..best to date my hand rather then risk prison.
Re: Re: Re:2 This is sick...
“Want to start a flame war?”. Apparently Timmy Geigner does.
Re: Re: Re:2 This is sick...
Actual rape is an awful crime. I have seen to many men suffer B.C. a girl came on tothem then bam…months later they are labeled a sex offender for life..not fair. the girl goes after them bc they dont get what they want. actual rape is an awful disgusting thing..and very sad. they are two seperate things…I feel for the girls family for loosimg their little girl…so sad.
Re: Re: Re:2 This is sick...
What is wrong with you? There is no consensual sex POSSIBLE with a 14 year old. It is per definition rape. Aggravated by the fact the rapist was in a position of authority!! Somebody should check you out, you make stereotypical pedophilic arguments.
Re: Re: Re:3 This is sick...
It is “per definition rape” only because YOU and everyone else with a gun DEFINES it as rape without giving a shit what SHE thinks or wants. What’s the difference between a forcible rapist who doesn’t give a shit what she thinks or wants, rapes her, and kills her, versus a society that doesn’t give a shit what she thinks or wants, destroys a relationship she valued, and harasses her to the point where she killed herself? The difference lies only in how much political power they have. There is no moral difference whatsoever between the forcible rapist and the forcible society that you, Andrew, endorse.
Re: Re: Re:4 This is sick...
well said, very well said….
and funny, the world cant even agree on when somebody can consent, the range falls between puberty and like 21, thats a pretty wide range….
even states in this very country cant agree, 14-18 range in Murika!!!!
so, what age is it?
by law, you cant even tell that without checking the laws in each state every time you enter one, since they can change any time they change the law.
the funniest part to me is I bet you have no problem with charging a 14yo as an adult in a murder case or armed robbery or aggravated violent rape.
somehow a 14yo is culpable for those things but cant be culpable to pick who they wana fuck….
then, the DA and COPS cant help but harrass her till she offs herself…..and you wana blame the guy who hasnt seen her in 3 years….rather then the DA and COPS who havent given her any peace and likely threatened to send her to prison if she didnt do what they wanted….
I do say the latter having had the cops threaten me like that over something i saw happen…..(mutual combat fight where the guy who started it got his ass handed to him, they wanted to send the other guy to prison and i wouldnt say that he started it and didnt stop when the fight was clearly over…..when infact he did…)
andrew, you can KMFHA, this guy was wrong, he deserved to be punished for being stupid and abusing his authority (if thats what happened), but she did not deserve to be punished and harassed over this till she killed herself.
you are one sick fuck if you think she deserved to get harrassed till she killed herself because she refused to say he raped her, when she didnt feel she had been raped or abused in any way….
in this case, I take the “victum”s word over that of cops/da that just want convictions.
Re: Re: Re: This is sick...
I’m sorry, are you…
AGAINST FREEDOM OF SPEECH?
You have just as much right to tell someone to GTFO as he does to publish his opinion. But you lack the ability and authority to MAKE him get out.
Re: Re: Re:2 This is sick...
even if he had the power to ban me, I would still speak my mind….
I have had ethugs threaten me and one even came out to fight me once years ago…..when he saw me, he about shit himself(i was about 3x his size and im built like a viking….but not a techno viking…..:P )
we are all allowed to state our opinions, just because i dont agree this was rape dosnt mean i feel it was right, and dosnt mean im a perv or pedo….no matter what they say to try and discredit me.
notice none of us are calling them sick perverts, despite the fact that I think their fixation on your girls sex lives is a bit….creepy….
meh back to reading.
Re: Re: This is sick...
Would you have the same views if it were your daughter?
Re: Re: Re: This is sick...
I would like to think I would, but, Im an “odd duck” in many circles I tend to be more logical then emotional about such things.
rather then flip the fuck out, I would have talked to her, and, unlike this mother I think I would have noticed something was wrong before she offed herself.
I also will never shame my kids regarding their sexual choices, I have seen what that does to a person, and how growing up in a home where sex wasnt anything dirty or to hide…well, Im less worried about any child I have hitting puberty and having sex then I am about making sure they know how to use protection and avoid std’s and pregnancy.
sex is a natural part of life, yeah what this guy did was creepy, but then again, we dont know if he or she where the aggressor…..I would take for how the case went down, that it was likely she had alot more culpability then most guys here would like to accept….otherwise…..i think books would have been thrown.
Re: This is sick...
The hell!?
THIS IS THE MOST OUTRAGEOUS OF ALL INJUSTICES EVER…..
I’m sharing this in my account… this outrage must be heard by everyone…
I’m at a loss of words. The only clear thing that came to mind while reading this is that Todd Baugh should lose his job as a judge and be banned for life from practicing law. Seriously.
Can it be appealed to higher instances? Can I appeal? Where do I donate so they can get uber lawyers to put this guy in jail for life?
Re: Re:
i suggest reading the whole story and story behind the story, Tim did a pretty piss poor job with this one….very poor research or explanation of the whole situation.
reads like it was written by faux news or msnbc….
Re: Re: Re:
I’ve seen the details (and the heated discussion above) and it may be that English and legalese got the better of the story. If it was really consensual sex then the sentence is completely disproportional. I will admit however that I cannot understand if it was rape or not considering all what I’ve read and from the comments here (Duke made a few good ones for thought). The question would be if she was the one that ‘provoked’ the whole situation or he was the starter (considering the consensual route). The length of the sentence is indeed up for debate.
Re: Re: Re: Re:
yeah i cant find any info if she initiated or he did, all i can find is, it seems it was concentual despite the law saying it couldnt be.
and a strong feeling from all i have read on other sites is that the reason the judge cut him a break was that she didnt want him prosecuted/persecuted.
no info about what was going on before she offed herself….no clue if it was really related or if it was how it was related.
im not a rape apologist or pedo/sicko, I just have issue with consensual sex being called rape even if thats how the law sees it.
(some states the law states at 17years 11months 28 days a girls cant consent but a few days later… magically shes mature enough to consent….
Don’t worry, Tim.
The internet will make quick work of Judge G. Todd Baugh.
It won’t be long now.
Re: Response to: Akari Mizunashi on Aug 28th, 2013 @ 11:33am
Shut the fuck up the world had bigger problems like 1st we have a nigger for president second to many illiegal immigrants like fucking mexicans i have a 3yr old daughter and if that happened to her wont have to worry bout a judge i personally would kill the fucker america is full of pussy like you i was in the marine corps and im truly ashamed to call myself american you all are a bunch of nigger loving pussys
Ugh. The aspect of this that bothers me the most is the fact that this potentially legitimizes the concept of “she looked old for her age.” Which is just shameless victim-blaming. Given the context of this case, it should never have been said.
Re: Re:
“She looked old for her age” can be a defence to age-related sexual offences in some places. For example, in English law there is a “window” whereby if someone is over 13 and under 16 but the defendant “reasonably believed” the other person was over 16, they have a defence.
Which obviously wouldn’t apply in this case, and the defendant would probably have known how old she was.
As an aside, the maximum sentence this person could have got under English law would have been 14 years. So maybe this is just part of the differences between the two criminal justice systems.
Re: Re:
The citation says “was old”, not “looked old”. That might refer to the judge’s evaluation of her psychological maturity, not her physical ripeness.
Re: Re:
I can sort of understand if two people consensually have sex together, but then it turns out one or both is a minor, that you can tell their parents who wish to press rape charges, said minor had displayed enough maturity to be considered eligible for boinking (considering said minor was not actually raped)… HOWEVER, this should not be decided on the size of her chest.
I must’ve missed the part where the laws on statutory rape make an exception if the minor is more mature than their age would indicate.
Re: Re:
They can in some places, depending on the facts. English law makes an exception if the defendant reasonably believed the person was over 16 (or 18 in other cases), provided they were over 13. It has been used in a couple of cases (and criticised “because children!”) where the defendant was deliberately misled by the complainant as to how old they were.
Which obviously wouldn’t apply here. But then this wasn’t an exception, it was a mitigating factor in sentencing. And it doesn’t seem to have been the girl’s looks that the judge was commenting on, but her understanding of the situation:
So it is more about mental, than physical maturity.
Re: Re: Re:
Okay, I agree that you can be tricked into thinking someone is older than they really are, and that this should be used when deliberating statutory rape cases, but the judge here is just totally full of it. The teacher knew the student! There was no way he did not know her age, no way he did not know that 14 year olds (at least in their area) cannot legally give consent. So whether she seduced him, he her, or they arrived at the decision mutually, at the end of the day, he was the adult who should have known to say no.
Re: Re: Re: Re:
Yes, at the end of the day he should have known better and said no. And he was convicted of a crime and will have to register as a sex offender, had to go through a sex offender treatment course etc. (assuming the facts in the article are correct).
The girl’s involvement/awareness is only a factor in sentencing. Given that, the above stuff, the low risk of re-offending, it seems the judge found that a lengthy prison sentence wasn’t proportionate. If locking someone up for 15 years isn’t going to do anyone any good, surely it is right not to?
Re: Re: Re:2 Re:
If you want to make those arguments about what is a proportional sentence based on risk of re-offending etc, that’s one thing.
But “older than her chronological age” should have nothing – literally, absolutely nothing – to do with the sentencing. The Judge really screwed the pooch when he wrote that.
Re: Re: Re:2 Re:
You seem to think that legal punishments are only intended to rehabilitate and never to punish, which is an extremely stupid thing to think. Sometimes we punish in an attempt to do both, but the punishment comes first and rehabilitation comes second…
Re: Re: Re:3 Re:
Sometimes we do punish people for the sake of punishing them.
Personally, I don’t think we should.
[That said, I don’t think imprisonment should just be about rehabilitation, but about preventing that person from committing further offences. One way of stopping that is to rehabilitate them, another is to lock them up forever. I think the former is more likely to be proportionate. It’s a balancing exercise, and one I think is better left to judges who can benefit from arguments from counsel, evidence and facts, than politicians or random people on the Internet.]
Re: Re: Re:3 Re:
That is the US mentality, in other countries the focus is on rehabilitation, not punishment.
Also it is debatable what the goals in the US Corrections system is.
Four were identified they are:
Retribution, deterrence, incapacitation, and rehabilitation
Whether or not all of them should be the goals is the subject of intense debate to this day in America.
Re: Re: Re:3 Re:
actually, most of the US injustice system is about punishment not rehab, and its about making money not rehab.
from for profit private prisons to “treatment” programs that treat everybody send for evaluation even if the evaluation says they dont need treatment and arent a threat/perv/ect)
I say this because I have talked it over with a fellow who runs a treatment program for sex offenders in our area, most of the clinics who do this say everybody needs treatment, his dosnt, he is honest.
note: they once did a “Sting” to see how clinics evaluated people and the diagnoses, and despite showing they where NOT following the evaluation guidelines they did nothing to stop it, because, theres money in it for somebody.
the most common test is the “Able test” it is not what it seems, it asks you to rate a bunch of pictures on how sexualy interesting you find them, none are in any way interesting, and your asked to rate 1-10, the 1-10 means nothing, it actually records how long you look at each image, if you look at each for 5 seconds the test is effectively invalid and useless, mind you even if you look at the images deemed appropriate longer then the ones deemed inappropriate most of these clinics still say you need years of treatment.
i learned alot from this fellow, also learned that at minimum 1/3 of the men convicted of these crimes either didnt do it or are no threat to anybody, and its less then 10% who are truly a danger to society, yet the put huge numbers of low to zero risk people on the web as if they are a threat.
its sad but, because theres money in this shit, they dont try and look at the facts but rather try and get convictions via plees that are backed by threats of 7-35year prison terms if you loose in court….
our state removed the statutory rape laws years go because, they where doing more harm then good, and somebody with some political clout had a son who was hit with a statutory case for dating his highschool gf….amazing what happens when somebody with some clout is effected isnt it….
now the technical rule of law is 16yo’s can make their own choices but, if shes 15+ they wont do anything even if the parents raise hell…(directly had a cop tell us this when we tried to report a 25yo living with a 15yo on church grounds rental) the mother didnt care,and she was the one renting he house….(she was living with her boyfriend…)
yes I tried to report it as did others same results…
statutory rape laws suck, they cause more harm then good.
I agree this case is wrong and creepy, but, he did his treatment, and theres no proof it was the relationship that was the cause outside mothers word, I think it more likely the fallout of the situation would be the cause if it had anything to do with the case in the first place.
and remember, in alot of the world, the age dif wouldnt matter in this case, the fact he was a teacher would….but in much of the world at 14 she was legal, and at 17 most of the world she was legal as well.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Age_of_Consent_-_Global.svg
Re: Re: Re:4 Re:
Regardless of the age of consent, in many states, it is illegal for teachers to have relationships with students due to the imbalance of power inherent in the relationship. This is true even if the student is over the age of consent.
Statutory rape laws are often abused to go after teenagers in relationships with others who are just beyond what the law considers consent, although there tend to be mitigating factors like Romeo Laws to help with that. But this case doesn’t even resemble those cases at all, the man was 3.5 times older than she was; she could have been his grand-daughter!
Re: Re: Re:5 Re:
oh its illegal in all states AFIK, and for good reason, again, please understand, Im not defending his actions, I just dont think it should be called rape….because its not…..
its an abuse of possition and influance….but its not rape…
saying this is rape is like saying talking an of age girl into having sex with you is rape…(neofeminists believe this mind you)
some people are more culpable for their choices/actions then others, but, the fact is, many adults are stupid and easily talked into things, and many teens are as well, but I would say you have at least an equal number of teens who are hard to convense to do anything….including stuff like brushing their teeth…..
again im not condoning this assholes actions, but, I also think the girls wishes and emotions needed taken into acct, and thats quite likely why the judge did what he did years ago and did this time despite her offing herself….
I still have yet to see proof she killed herself over the relationship rather then something else.
Re: Re: Re:4 Re:
By constantly invoking that wikipedia link, you are invoking the argument that this many people can’t be wrong, simply because they’re the majority. That’s a very weak argument you’re making. Large groups of people can and have been known to have been wrong. When Nazis were in power in Germany, the vast majority of Germans thought it was all right to discriminate against Jews, and even kill them.
Re: Re: Re:4 Re:
“I say this because I have talked it over with a fellow who runs a treatment program for sex offenders in our area”
Yeah, I bet you do. Regularly. By order of the state….
Re: Re: Re:5 Re:
nope, he networks with 2 of the business networking groups our business is part of, he also does anger management, drug/alchohol and other types of counselling/treatment, nice guy really.
part of why he and his partners started the SO treatment was because there was a need for an honest program in the area, most if not all of the others are not about getting people treated but about making 60-85usd a person on “group treatment” that amounts to packet work(that he showed some of us) and sitting around talking 1-3 times a week(at 60-85bucks a time.
do the math
say they do 6 groups a day, 5 days a week, averaging 15 people a group, 2 times a week at 85bucks a head.
thats alot of money, and a good reason to never NEVER let anybody even those who your test say are perfectly normal off without years of “treatment”
and Tim nice attack, I get you dont like or agree with my opinion on this topic…
but I dont agree with your faux news esque blerb on the topic either….it seems you wrote it to fit your very angery view point, intentionally leaving out very important details….like the fact he had completed a treatment program and the sentance wasnt for the “rape” it was for having gotten kicked out of one program for what the judge considered minor violations….or the fact he finished treatment at another location and was/is considered low risk.
I get that you would love nothing more then to see this guys guts on a stick as hes burned at the stake….
but the fact is, most of the world wouldnt call this rape, and your posting about it is VERY misleading, I mean….damn dude when did you get the job working for faux news/msnbs?
"older than her chronological age."
That line right here about how she’s older than her age is about the biggest amount of bullshit I’ve seen. That’s the kind of reasoning you’d expect from a government agency, not a judge.
Wow...
Fuck… just…
This isn’t right.
The best part was part of the justification the judge used for his ruling. A quote from USAToday stated “I think that people have in mind that this was some violent, forcible, horrible rape,” Baugh said. “It was horrible enough as it is just given her age, but it wasn’t this forcible beat-up rape.” Sound familiar? Like all the idiots in the 2012 election cycle, rape is only bad if it’s that really nasty, violent rape. Otherwise, you know, it’s understandable. The victims were really asking for it anyway. Unbelievable.
Re: Re:
you need to read the back story and the definition of statutory rape, then you will have a bit more of an idea what really went on.
Re: Re: Re:
read the back story.
Man in position of power and 14 year old girl.
Man abuses power, grooms 14 year old girl for sex.
Man has sex with 14 year old girl.
Man gets caught.
Man gets 31 days prison time.
Re: Re: Re: Re:
nowhere does it say he groomed her, infact, it dosnt even say he coerced into having sex.
he was in the wrong, he was in a position of power and influance over her, and by law she was to stupid to be able to take responsibility for her choices…
again read the back story, he did treatment, the jail time(not prison) is for being kicked out of one treatment program, despite the fact he finished another one.
its quite likely, reading the story and other info i could find via google, that the reason the judge was so lenient with him(and the DA agreed) was to spare the girl the trauma of a trial and watching him to to prison.
again, he was wrong, he needed punished, but, it wasnt rape by the definition society invisions as rape(forced sex)
if you want to believe 14yo’s are to stupid to be responsible for their actions, and wantto believe thats how the law sees them, you need to look how they are treated when they kill people or commit armed robery or send nude pix of themselves to others…in all cases, they are tried as adults…..and punished as adults.
Re: Re:
I think you may have missed the point: the initial sentence is for 15 years, with one month being served regardless. It appears that the argument that Judge Baugh is making is that, whilst statutory rape is not acceptable, there are potentially mitigating factors (such as emotional maturity).
This is a case of the law being interpreted correctly, even if we do not agree with the law in question. Whether the law should exist in the first place is a whole other question.
The Internet is not a cruel place, some of the people using it are cruel.
How many times must we explain something before it sinks in?
Re: Re:
It can be a funny place, though, where you can get a kick out of watching people argue over something that has no bearing on their lives and doesn’t affect them one iota.
My question
Of course, if this same girl was brought before this same judge on a charge of purchasing alcohol while underage, I’m sure he would let her walk since she was “older than her chronological age.”
Right?
Re: My question
most likely, because shes female she would get a pussy pass and just get told not to do it again, if she did, she would get a slap on the wrist…
if it was a male….book would be thrown…
Re: Re: My question
because shes female she would get a pussy pass
I can’t even…are you a real person?
Re: Re: Re: My question
http://youtu.be/SIZTKcVKTYs
she got an $80 fine and some community service, he ended up with brain damage…..pussy pass….
Re: Re: My question
Well, there was no need to put forth any more evidence that you are a rape apologist and a misogynist. Post on reddit much? You know the subreddit I am referring to.
Re: Re: Re: My question
http://youtu.be/SIZTKcVKTYs
she fakes sexual assult, attacks him, causes brain damage
gets an $80 fine and some community servce…..thats called a pussy pass.
Re: Re: Re:2 My question
Didn’t know that male and female pedos were at war.
So do you think you guise will win ?
Re: Re: Re:3 My question
thats feminist vs religious asshole.
she assaults him, causes serious harm, and gets a $80 fine, probation and some community service…..if a man did the same thing, your talking about jail or even prison time, huge fines and probation for years.
guess thats ok though, because its ok to give females a pass….rolls eyes
Re: Re: Re:4 My question
http://www.newschannel5.com/global/story.asp?s=11396362
http://www.avoiceformen.com/video/false-allegation-and-assault-at-once/
http://www.kwtx.com/news/headlines/84403687.html?device=phone&device=tablet
“The Daily News Journal of Murfreesboro reports that Michaela Morales, 23, received nearly a year of probation, must perform 24 hours of community service and must pay preacher John McGlone $80 in restitution.”
hence pussy pass, less then a year probation, $80 and 24hrs community service for assult….show me a man who did what she did who would get that kinda pass…..
Re: Re: My question
Yeah, I was right. You are some kind of perv/sociopath.
At least maybe he’ll get ass raped a few times in prison. You know, so he knows what it’s like to get raped.
A lot of prison inmates don’t take kindly to child abusers/molesters.
Re: Re:
statutory “rape” look it up, this was not “rape rape” as it where, he didnt force himself on her.
Re: Re: Re:
Oh, so it’s not real rape so long as the 14-year-old who can’t legally consent to sex in the eyes of the law consents?
What kind of a human being are you?
Re: Re: Re: Re:
It’s a matter of degree.
Re: Re: Re:2 Re:
lol’d
Re: Re: Re: Re:
How do you know that a 14 year old can’t consent?
A quarter of teenagers that age are having sex with each other, are they all rapists?
Re: Re: Re:2 Re:
all that matters to them is the law says they cant, if the law said they could, this wouldnt be an issue and I wouldnt have these assholes calling me a pedo and shit…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Age_of_Consent_-_Global.svg
more of the world disagrees with them with reguards to this girls ability to concent then agrees…
oh yeah, spain must be full of pedos and pervs, the AoC there is 13…….(yeah thats a bit to young but….its the law there, and their society accepts it and looks at ours like we are insane…so….)
Re: Re: Re:3 Re:
You keep saying that “more of the world” stuff.
Could you please do a tally of the number of countries where a 14 year old can consent to sexual intercourse, vs the number of countries where a 14 year old cannot consent? Because when I looked at that diagram, it looks like most countries have an age of consent that is 16 years of age or older.
In fact, better than a country-by-country analysis would be the number of people living in countries where the age of consent is such a number. This would control for population size vs. number of countries.
Re: Re: Re:4 Re:
By the time he gets around to twisting the data to make it look more favorable for his pedo propaganda, it will be out of date anyway. Child protection laws are on the increase fortunately. Even countries like India are starting to implement stronger child protection laws.
Re: Re: Re:3 Re:
Spain does have pedos and perves…. HENCE
Spain to raise age of consent from 13 to 16
Spain is set to raise the age of consent from 13 to 16 years old bringing it in line with its European neighbours.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/spain/10089339/Spain-to-raise-age-of-consent-from-13-to-16.html
Wanna stop people calling you a pedo. Stop spewing pedo propaganda, trying to justify Child abuse and defending selfish sickfucks who only care about their OWN sexual desires.
Re: Re: Re:4 Re:
they should change it to “till you can pass a test that says your emotionally and psychologically read to have a sexual relationship”
that way, some people would never be allowed to have sex….since Im sure we have all met people who even at advancd age are not mature enough to deal with an adult relaitonship.
oh btw, may wana read the story behind your link, pressure from outside is driving them to change the law, just as they have been pressured into passing laws to try and stop “piracy”
i really dont give a shit, Im not a pedo, I even avoid contact with minors as a general rule….and anybody who may be minor infact…..
to many who look older then they are and have fake ID’s that look legit….not worth the risk….safer to date my hand….
Re: Re: Re:4 Re:
No government should involve itself in the bedroom.
Re: Re: Re:2 Re:
a couple of 14 year olds experimenting is not the same as some relatively old man grooming a 14 year old.
While I am a strong advocate of unanesthetized castration for rapists; this case doesn’t add up. Did this guy sneak in to her house or grab her off of the street? Or is this a case where the intercourse was consensual but the girl was under the age of consent so it became a rape charge? The actual charge was sexual intercourse without consent which (I’d guess) is a different charge than when some skeevy pervert drags a women into the bushes at knifepoint.
Anyway, it’s too bad this scumbag didn’t go to prison to see how he liked being on the receiving end of “buggery without consent” day in and day out for a couple of decades but I think there’s more to the story.
Re: Re:
this was statutory rape, not “rape rape” she consented but wasnt legally allowed to consent in her state.
Re: Re:
The actual charge was sexual intercourse without consent
Since the girl was 14, she is not legally able to give consent, hence the sexual intercourse without consent. He did not force himself upon her.
What exactly does a judge mean by saying that the girl “was older than her chronological age”.. That is quite different from saying she looked older, it sounds more like he is basing this on her actions rather than her looks..
If she was a student of the guy, he would know her age anyway so how old she “looked” would make no difference whatsoever.
Re: Re:
From the article, it seems he was commenting more on her awareness of what she was doing, and how she was “as much in control of the situation” as the defendant. But without seeing transcripts etc. it is difficult to know for sure (which is perhaps why we shouldn’t be quick to judge…).
Re: Re: Re:
Guys, simply put, a 14 year old girl cannot be as much in control of a sexual situation as an adult teacher. This whole conversation is silly. The prosecution NEVER should have offered that deal and the judge should never have gone for it either. Their comments are simply icing on a really shitty cake….
Re: Re: Re: Re:
Just what I was thinking. It’s bullshit that the 14yo girl could have equal control over the situation with her teacher. HE COULD HAVE SAID NO, but instead decided to take advantage of a girl who while mentally very mature couldn’t possibly have been emotionally mature enough to consent in any meaningful sense. At 14 you’re still a kid. You can’t make sound decisions about relationships. It’s a biological fact, intelligence and precociousness aren’t the same as actual maturity and ability to think with adult clarity about the situation you’re getting into.
Re: Re: Re: Re:
Not true, a 14 year old is old enough and mentally capable enough to use others just like an adult. Have you ever been to highschool?
All the drama and the idiotic plots.
And I believe you may be wrong, the judge showed some compassion in a really shitty situation, one that I don’t think people here realize.
If he raped her I would call it a shitty thing, but apparently he didn’t, it was a consensual relationship, which even the enraged mother admitted when she stated “his relationship with her lead to her suicide”.
This is no rape, it is a fool giving into his sexual fantasies with a willing participant.
The judge talked to the girl, he had the opportunity to avaliate her state of mind we didn’t, what did she told him?
She loved the teacher and wanted to be with him for the rest of her life? or he raped me I didn’t want to have sex with him at all?
Do you have that information?
Re: Re: Re:2 Re:
from what i read, not in the artical but in related info(google can find the full story) part of why the judge did what he did, was because the girl wanted him to, and to avoid more trama to her he agreed at least partially to her wishes.
she didnt want him persecuted/prosecuted, others did but she didnt.
i dont have the links here, i found them when i was at home, this is as you say, not rape by the definition the OP and most of the posters here are using….
it is creepy old man and young girl….but its not really rape.
Re: Re: Re:3 Re:
Statuary rape is still rape.
Re: Re: Re:4 Re:
Only because the government says it is.
Re: Re: Re:4 Re:
Only in name because it is not forced or coerced sex in this case.
Re: Re: Re:5 Re:
If I con you into giving me your car…..Is it not theft ?
Re: Re: Re:6 Re:
No, it’s called fraud.
Re: Re: Re:2 Re:
A 50 year old is old enough and mentally capable of understanding that having sex with his 14-year old student is against the law. Beyond that, teachers are in positions of authority over students, which is why there are laws on the books that prevent teachers from having relationships with their students, even if the student is legally capable of consent. The power structure is all messed up in such an intimate relationship, just like the power structure in a boss/subordinate relationship can easily be abused.
Re: Re: Re:3 Re:
I agree, but, its still not rape, the law says its statutory rape, but, what people think when they see rape is violent threats or beating and forced sex….
its not molestation because shes to old to call it that(legally)
I never said this was OK, I just dont view it as the societal image given to rape.
its quite likely the fallout of the relationship coming to light did her more mental harm then the relationship itself.
again, I DO NOT CONDONE THE RELAIONSHIP, its creepy and wrong….he should have been and was punished for it.(read the full story rather then tim’s faux news/msnbs version of the story)
we need a new term for this kind of thing, the mental image society attaches to rape is not what happened here…
my state uses “Communicating with a minor for immoral purposes” after they removed statutory rape laws, these are more flexable and allow for some judgement and a defense (say she had a fake ID that looked legit and you met her at 3am at some bar..)
statutory rape laws have no flexibility they dont take anything into acct but age, not the welfare of the “victim” or anything, thats likely why they suspended persecution and made a deal.
once again, i have never said I support this or agree with it, its wrong and creepy, but its not rape.
Re: Re: Re:4 Re:
“Immoral purposes”? Kinda blows a big hole in that “you-can’t-legislate-morality” philosophy.
Re: Re: Re:4 Re:
It’s rape if the person is groomed.
Re: Re: Re:5 Re:
here the ultimate rap check list
http://archiveofthebitingbeaver.wordpress.com/2008/05/31/the-rapist-checklist-repost/
so by that, every guy I know whos not gay is a rapist.
and thats a list by a feminist who really believes its contents, i suggest you read it, then start dating your hand….
Re: Re: Re:
Well thats the thing. I don’t really agree with conflating consentual sex (or what would have been consentual sex had she been of age) with forced rape even with an underage girl. It is certainly still wrong and should still be outlawed, but conflating the two is dishonest imho. There is an important difference there that should be more than just left up to the judges discretion to hand out a lighter sentence imho.
Re: Re: Re: Re:
Well said.
Re: Re: Re: Re:
now to wait for them to call you a pedo rape appologist pervert…for not agreeing its rape….
i agree with what you said crade..
Re: Re: Re: Re:
Sex by deception.
Sex by abuse of power.
Sex by coercion.
Sex by physical force.
Still all rape.
The whole Idea that only physical force is “”real rape”” is complete retarded bullshit imho.
Just like….
Taking your car by deception.
Taking your car by abuse of power.
Taking your car by coercion.
Taking your car by physical force.
It’s still all theft. They took your fucking car.
If anything, rape by coercion/deception is probably more mentally damaging. The victim has to wake up every day and think about how stupid they are for being fooled.
You would rather get your car stolen from the street than have given your keys to someone who conned you.
So even the idea that physical forced rape is the “worst” kind of rape is highly questionable.
Re: Re: Re:2 Re:
http://archiveofthebitingbeaver.wordpress.com/2008/05/31/the-rapist-checklist-repost/
read that list, you cant have heterosexual sex without it being rape.
and sory but, if somebody cons you out of something its not the same thing, and, its a life lesson…if you dont learn from it, then your far worse then most teens i have met…most of them learn from their mistakes…but so do most adults…..some never gain that skill…..im starting to think you are one of them…..hope your not sexually active….anybody who has sex with you is a rapist.
Re: Re: Re:3 Re:
Pedo apologist.
You are retarded if you think that some list will mean you are not a sickfuck.
54 year old teacher. 14 year old girl.
14 years old.
Seriously you are just making yourself look retarded. You are a sickfuck. Deal with it.
You will not convince me that you should be allowed to fuck kids because they say it’s ok. Kids repeat anything and at 14 have not developed opinions of their own. All their opinions have been put there by others. If they say it’s OK it’s because they have been told it is OK by sickfucks like you.
You don’t give a fuck about the kids, all they exist for in your eyes is for your sexual desire.
Re: Re: Re:4 Re:
Anonymous Coward, you probably think goats exist just for YOUR sexual pleasure.
Re: Re: Re:3 Re:
I’m 46. 22 is too young for me. Including a mature 22 year old.
Think about all the things they had in common and could have shared in life…
Re: Re: Re:
Yes, this is a statutory rape case, rather than a “forcible rape” case. I don’t like separating out “forcible rape” as some sort of different category, because it suggests that other forms of rape somehow don’t count. (Witness multiple controversies in 2012 election cycle.)
But statutory rape describes a category for case in which an adult has sexual relations with a minor, and even though the minor voiced or appeared to consent, we deem the minor’s consent to be invalid because of their age. It seems perfectly fine to me to outlaw this kind of behavior, but I think many people recognize that having sex with someone whose consent is invalid is qualitatively different from having sex with someone who actually does not consent.
In statutory rape cases, a victim’s maturity level may well be a relevant issue, but that’s because an adult can be guilty of statutory rape even where he did not know the victim was a minor incapable of giving legal consent. Thus, the fact that a minor acts and appears to be an adult would be a mitigating factor. Here, I’m not sure why the victim’s maturity is relevant, as the defendant was her teacher, and surely would have know her age (approximately, if not to the day). It does sound like the judge was considering her maturity as a factor weighing in favor of validating the consent she gave — something like a partial defense to the crime.
The victim’s suicide is a tragedy, no matter what precipitated it. Tim, and some other commenters, seem to think that should factor into the judge’s decision. I myself am not so sure. I recall that in discussions of the Lori Drew case, in which a young, impressionable girl committed suicide after being harassed by an adult online, the TD community seemed at pains to argue that Drew’s actions hadn’t caused that tragic suicide. I’m not equating online harassment with rape (whether statutory or otherwise), but I think it’s worth comparing the reactions to that case and this one.
Re: Re: Re: Re:
However, like Tim says, even considering those factors 30 days in jail is still pretty pathetic and people being mean to him on the internet should have absolutely no impact on his sentence.
Also, if the statutory rape actually caused or was a factor in her suicide, that would certainly point to her not having been “older than her chronological age” enough to “validate the ‘consent’ she gave” as you put it.
Re: Re: Re:2 Re:
Your comment and the response are the best ones in my view.
Though I think Timothy Geigner presented this case unfairly (an usually his articles are spot on) I also agree that 30 days is a little low.
Obviously age counts a lot when evaluating consent as a mitigation for statutory rape, as the judge evidently did in this case. A 14 year old is at least capable of actually wanting sex.
Re: Re: Re:3 Re:
I agree, I normally find his posts to be excellent, but this one reads like faux news or msnbs…..
Wow 30 days for rape? Seriously. That isn’t enough not nearly enough. “sexual intercourse without consent.” that means rape geez. Anyways 15 years is at least what it should have been.
Re: Re:
But it is called “without consent” only because of the legal fiction that a 14 year old cannot give consent. Obviously this is not true any more than pi is 22/7, rather it’s a good working principle to keep mental discipline while judging cases. It could be that this judge’s discipline slipped a bit.
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agreed, I also bet you, if this was reversed peoples reaction would be very different, if it was some 14yo boy bangin some hot teacher…..doubt these people would have been calling me names for not agreeing with their vague understanding of the case.
Re: Re: Re: Re:
I at the least can guarantee that if the genders had been flipped, I would still be saying the exact same things. I would still be calling for the symbolic teacher’s head on a platter.
Re: Re: Re:2 Re:
but most here wouldnt, as was shown when a few of us brought this stuff up in groups on facebook just to see the reactions.
many people ended up admitting they view boys as less fragile and more mature then girls, even though they admit girls mature emotionally earlier then boys.
its a social perception in our society that girls need protected and boys need blamed/punished.
again, im not defending this guys actions, he needed punished for his actions, I still content this isnt rape, its abuse of position and influence, and honestly, hes punished quite well now…rest of his life, hes gonna have to struggle to get jobs, places to live, and always have to look over his shoulder for people who want to kill him for being on the SO registry…
It’s official, our justice system is a complete joke.
Personally
I prefer women my own age, (that look like they are 14) /sarc
This has to be the worst result in a case of this nature ever.
Good thing he didn’t do something truly heinous, like whistle blow on the government. They lock people up for that shit.
Re: Re:
Thanks for pointing out the sentencing discrepancy between various moral panic zones.
torrent freak CP lovers are here today
yup we got sickos trying to jsutify rape other day it was child porn was free speech ….we need rout these sickos out and remove them form society so they cannot do anymore harm
Re: torrent freak CP lovers are here today
You, sir, are full of horse shit.
The article was about the Finnish Supreme Court censoring a Finnish site which criticized the government for having a secret block list used to censor sites that host CP. The owner of the site has the position that simply censoring the sites will only make it harder to actually catch the sick fucks making the child porn in the first place. The CP distributors will probably just burrow deep into the dark, seed(ier) parts of the web and become harder to find.
Oh, and there’s the fact that the site wasn’t hosting or linking to any illegal material it still had to be blocked because protecting the children apparently outweighs freedom of speech in Findland.
[For anyone who’s wondering what this AC is babbling about, here’s a link to the article in question so you can decide for yourselves]
http://torrentfreak.com/finnish-court-censors-website-that-criticizes-censorship-130826/
Re: Re: torrent freak CP lovers are here today
Actually, the site apparently lists the URLs without actually linking to them. It’s difficult to imagine the law making a distinction. Ironically, the site is hosted in Finland and still available on the net outside of Finland, but not through Finnish ISPs. I would be curious to know if the guy is a pure free speech advocate or is actually an crypto-apologist for child pornography.
Re: Re: Re: torrent freak CP lovers are here today
From what I can see… (not being finnish doesn’t help)
It did link to CP sites at one time.
Guy removed the links.
Another further inspection by police later, showed some links to forums etc… were users shared CP
Guy then removed those links too.
His site was blocked.
His site is also called “Child Porn dot info”
His site was setup years ago, before the blocklist.
Does anyone seriously believe he is purely an anti-censorship activist ?
I don’t know. If he is… he is pretty fucking stupid at PR. Seriously bad on the site name, the links he exposed that correlate with the site name do not help.
You never know though.
Re: torrent freak CP lovers are here today
jsutify?
Lord knows that if it was the Judge’s child, it would have been 40 years or something.
I guess it’s better to be a rapist or murderer, than to try and correct abuses in the American capitalist and insecure system.
Re: Re:
if it was his kid, he wouldnt be on the case.
next, if it causes the 14yo more mental harm then cutting the guy a deal then I feel it would be wrong to persecute him and cause her that harm.
if you read the actual story behind this faux newsish blerb tim wrote, you will find he is being tossed in for 30 dys for failing to complete treatment and being kicked out of one program for minor rules violations.
on the other hand, he finished treatment at another location , hence the light 30 day in jail sentence.
and no, i dont condone his actions, its creepy and wrong, but its not rape, again read the case info, its quite likely they gave him the deal they did to spare the girl any more mental harm then had already happened.
“scarlet letter of the Internet”…. Did that lawyer just argue that informal social punishments for adultery are a substitute for formal punishment of rape, because of The Internet?
Re: Re:
He should try to get a patent on it.
Jailbait
We’ve got “grown women” wearing clothes with teddy bears that could appeal to kids (:koffMileyCyruskoff:), and I dare you to go shopping for a 6-year old girl and not be confronted with a whole lines of slutwear.
This kind of thing is going to happen more frequently. We’ve got a mess here in Michigan where a male middle school teacher groomed, then repeatedly molested/raped a male student. Someone sent the parents a photo of an act, and it was posted on a porn site. The story just gets sicker from there and largely went unreported until until the school board president and a group of teachers wrote in letters of support of the molester. The garage of the parents was set on fire and the community is divided. Many parents are adamantly against these teachers holding a position and want them fired, but that would cause a union lawsuit and bankrupt the school system.
At least the rapist is going to serve serious time.
Here’s one link: http://eagnews.org/father-of-molested-student-talks-about-his-familys-anguish-and-his-outrage-toward-teachers-who-supported-the-pedophile/
Re: Jailbait
thats some fucked up sick shit…..
as is this case, but, this case(the story) still isnt rape….or molestation.
hope they throw the book at the sick fuck you linked though….
Re: Re: Jailbait
Yeah cause a man grooming and having sex with a 14 year old isn’t rape.
It is.
Re: Re: Re: Jailbait
please tell me you arent sexually active…
by your responses its quite clear you are one of those peole who never will be mature enough to deal with a sexual or adult relationship.
anybody stupid enough to have sex with you should be tossed in prison….
Re: Re: Re:2 Jailbait
lol.
Deal with sexual relationships and control others for your sexual desires…. two different things pedo apologist.
WTF Washington Post??
Check out the WP story regarding this:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/former-teacher-in-montana-gets-30-days-in-jail-for-raping-student-who-later-committed-suicide/2013/08/27/8f3115da-0f60-11e3-a2b3-5e107edf9897_story.html
Horrible choice for the photo of the day :/
Re: WTF Washington Post??
read the comments, I await the people who call me names posting such to anybody who dosnt agree with them over there.
and yes the image is fucking lulzy as hell……im still snickering…..
Re: Re: WTF Washington Post??
You are a pedo apologist and propagandist.
Are literally full of shit about…
only physically forced rape is “”real rape”” hurr fucking durr, only physically robbed person is “real robbed” person.
Also… you literally can’t stop sucking pedo cocks
But agree that, that pic is unreal lulzy.
Still think your kids will be fucked if you keep that attitude of yours. Probably when they are 13 by one of your friends.
Re: Re: Re: WTF Washington Post??
when I have kids, I plan to be very open with them when they ask about sex, I also plan to ensure that once they start showing interest in sex, that they know how a condom works….
Unlike some sick fucks(the ac here for example) I dont feel the best method to “protect” kids is to treat them like they are idiots.
teach them to take responsibility for their actions, teach them the facts, let them make their own choices, and help them learn from their mistakes.
I do find it funny that if this where a 14yo boy who murdered somebody people would be fine with adult charges being filed and them being held culpable for their actions.
but because its a girl who choose to have sex at 14, shes a delecate flower who was in no way to blame for that choice.
and again, what this guy did was horrible and sickening, but it wasnt rape, it was an abuse of power, position and influence, and hes been punished for it….
and he will be punished for it for the rest of his life….
i know to some thats not enough but to me…..well, im shocked he didnt just commit suicide when he was put on the SO registry….once you are labled a sex offender, you cant get meaningful work, you cant live most places, and you constantly have to worry about being attacked by some nut who saw you on a website and decided to take the law into their own hands.
Re: Re: Re:2 WTF Washington Post??
You obviously haven’t got a fucking clue about parenting, how kids learn and their capacity to see responsibility through impressiveness.
54 year old impresses and lures kid…. for his sexual desire.
Good luck teaching kids on how to deal with that. They couldn’t even comprehend the reality of “they only want sex”.
Understanding and comprehending are two totally different things btw.
For all those defending this guy because it was statutory rape and not forcible rape a couple of points.
1) He was a teacher who’s job it is to guide, train, and PROTECT students.
2) He is an adult. Even if she was willing and initiated it, he should have known it was wrong and said no.
Because he failed at both of these and took advantage of a child he suffered several consequences (well deserved). However; he also should have had a much, much longer jail term not only because deserved it, but also as a deterrent to others.
Finally anyone defending or attempting to justify this guys actions should not be left alone with children.
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Oh Im not defending him, I just dont fell its rape, what he did was VERY creepy and wrong, but it wasnt rape other then in the legal sense of statutory rape.
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I guess a sleeping woman or a drunk one isn’t rape either.
What if he wasn’t sleeping with her but just supplying alcohol? Would that be alright as she was the one who wanted to drink?
Techdirt, where “For the children” and “Zero tolerance” laws are criticized but can’t be bothered to look at shades of gray when a case is presented on the subject.
Yep, life-time in jail, let him be raped there and find out what its like. He DESERVES IT.
And now you know how some politicians think, congrats, you’re on your way to making laws based on emotions and fear rather than cold hard logic.
“How do you justify the rape of a 14—” Ah, ah, ah. You’re doing it again. Not justifying, just pointing out the lack of research given to the subject because of conclusion jumping.
Yep, this is how bad laws get made.
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So, what do you suggest: we take statutory rape laws off the books and just let teenagers have at it with older adults?
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Actually, he’s talking about shades of gray, not black-and-white, so probably he means that the laws should should stay on the book.
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Sounds good to me.
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I suggest removing statutory rape laws, replace them with communicating with a minor laws that are flexable and allow room for the judge/jury to take into account the whole situation and whats best not only for the parties involved but society in general.
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But then there’s that whole first amendment thing…
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Actually, everything being argued here against the ruling IS being argued with cold hard logic.
1) The origin of statutory rape laws was that it was determined that minors, those under 18, cannot be considered to have the experience (key word there, this is something that you simply cannot get other than with age) necessary to make the judgement to have sexual relationships with anyone.
2) This was a relationship, because the teacher was reported to have had sex with the girl multiple times. Being in a sexual relationship with someone over an extended period of time carries responsibilities on both parties: here, one of them was a 14 year old girl who has much more to be doing with her life than banging a guy four times her age. No matter how bright or mature she was or seemed to be, at age 14, she has not had the life experience to be able to cope with having a relationship with a much older man.
3) The teacher was in a position of authority over her. No matter how benign the girl may have said the relationship was, at some point during it, she would have had to have thought “he’s got power over me, can make my life worse in some fashion” or words to that effect. No way she didn’t.
4) I’ve heard from other commentators that in this judge’s area, there’s supposed to be a minimum sentence of 25 years. If true, the judge is ignoring his own laws, which is not what a judge is supposed to be doing: judges are to enforce the law as it is written, not re-interpret it or ignore it completely (hence the outrage over the secretive rulings of the FISA court that redefine common language)
5) When considering rulings, there has to be a thought as to the message it will spread to those considering committing the same crime. Here, a message has been sent to potential future child rapists to go ahead, it’s a slap on the wrist if the kid falls in love with you.
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While statutory rape laws are not cut-and-dry with the 18 year old age of consent (it varies by state, and can vary with age of the alleged perp due to “Romeo Laws”), I think more focus should be placed on #5.
By letting this man off with only 30 days in prison because the girl “was older than her chronological age” and “as much in control of the situation”, we are sending a message to child predators – find a young girl, groom her until she initiates a relationship, and then if you get caught, your lawyer can cite this court case.
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See? Now this is the kind of cold hard facts that I’d like to see when discussing something like this. Not mere “OMG, he should rot in jail forever.”
Backing things up with evidence is the best way to determine where the screw ups in the laws are. This is especially important when looking objectively at laws concerning topics we dislike.
It’s tough, but it’s important.
This kind of crap doesn’t belong on Techdirt.
Just look at the shitstorm above.
Stick to TECH dirt… not just dirt. Please.
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So, go start your own site and you can decide what’s appropriate for it.
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That is true. Not constructive, but true nonetheless.
However, what about this particular dirt, exactly, is tech related?
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Because it was sentenced to 30 days due to “the internet being mean”.
All there in the title.
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Except the title isn’t supported by the linked article.
The article doesn’t say he was sentenced to 30 days due to the Internet being mean (or because the girl looked kinda old).
Which was my original gripe with this post. But that seems to have got a bit out of control.
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Look on the good side — no OOTB.
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We all need a good argument every now and then.
A lack of info
I’m not sure you have all the facts right. I read other stories that said it was consensual. And the girl committed suicide 3 years later. There is no evidence that it was linked.
There is a distinct lack of info in most of the articles that makes me question the narrative of this.
Re: A lack of info
Sigh
Again, statutory rape laws say that no matter how much the child says yes, as far as the law is concerned, that consent is invalid for very good reasons. Also, from what I see in the comments here on TD, most of them aren’t focusing on the suicide.
Re: A lack of info
I don’t really see what else you need to know, besides “49 year old male teacher has sexual relationship with his 14 year old student, judge suspends 99.4% of the convicted criminal’s sentence because the victim was ‘older than her chronological age’ and ‘as much in control of the situation’ as he was”
I mean, when I try to think of legitimate excuses for a 49 year old teacher to have an intimate relationship with a 14 year old student…you know, I just can’t come up with any at all.
Re: Re: A lack of info
Hmm… the only possible excuse that could be made would have to over what the Age of Consent is in Montana, which a quick Internet search indicates that in Montana the AoC either 16 or 14.
Still, that excuse would be about as effective as trying to stop a bullet with unrolled paper towels.
But as far as viable reasons go, this guy has none, especially considering that the school district he worked for told in back in ’04 not to be alone with female students. That was FOUR YEARS before he started having a relationship with the 14-year-old girl.
I know the fact that she later killed herself makes this all seem so much worse, but this:
First, doesn’t even 15 years for a teacher raping a student seem on the light side, particularly when that student subsequently killed herself?
feels like a dangerous attitude. I know that’s the easy gut reaction, but do we really want the sentence to depend on how resilient the victim is? The emotional impact on the victim doesn’t really change how morally wrong the act itself was. In effect, this would be saying to victims who are particularly emotionally resilient “We don’t think your rape is as bad as other rapes, because you don’t seem as upset”.
Re: Re:
The damage to the victim does count in many cases, though — as one would judge them.
For example, consider assault up to and including murder. It can be a matter of luck or some tough bones or something that a person survives, and we take it for granted that it makes a huge difference for the severity of the crime. Not just intent or even actions carried out, but their results.
I think it’s called “moral luck”, at least there is a book by that title.
An “ongoing sexual relationship” is rape? Andrea Dworkin wrote a lot of crazy things, but I didn’t realize she also wrote laws.
Just Repeal. Now.
“take statutory rape laws off the books” – exactly!!
Re: Just Repeal. Now.
Agreed!
Re: Re: Just Repeal. Now.
careful, you will be called pedo’s and rape apologists and such for saying this….
I do think he needed punished, and I feel he has been(and will be for the rest of his life)
but alot of these people think he should have gotten life in prison or better the death penalty…
The people who come to Techdirt and satirically post, “It’s for the children! Think of the children!”…where are they?
All this discussion makes me want to put “Don’t Stand So Close To Me” on the ol’ sound system, cranked up and on continuous play.
I have read all the comments to this point.
I have one basic question:
What is legal rape?
This being the US we are discussing it could be as little as some girl seeing some guy take a piss on the side of the road with a normal reasonable definition stretched all out of kilter.
a cure for the problem
https://si0.twimg.com/profile_images/1532159783/1315356784_4341-0550×0475.jpg
sew the hole shut, that should fix the problem of girls having sex before they are ready…..should prevent guys from sullying their pure little bodies….they can have the stitching removed when they pass a maturity test or hit 25….hows that sound?
i mean, after all, we cant agree on an age even within the us it ranges from 14-19, so, perhaps the best idea is to protect them by making sure they cant make bad choices….including sticking things in there….
if a man violates this, remove his genitals or, just kill him outright…. girls/women need protected from males and themselves….
/sarc
again, I dont agree with what he did, he needed punished, he got punished.
as to the suicide, we dont know the facts behind why she did it, just a mothers anguish and laying blame….
Things like this should be a case by case basis
I see many people arguing over this, and it basically boils down to; do humans magically become fully functioning adults with rational and logical thinking processes at age 18? Do they just go to bed 17, and wake up on their 18th birthday fully formed adults, able to kill and give consent? And what about adults who are not mentally aware do to a physical or mental development problem? Can they give consent? Can they kill for their country?
Honestly everyone develops differently, and at different rates. Some girl at 14 can be far more mature then somebody at 20. In the end its all pointless numbers, and cases like these should be judged by a per case bases, if the judge concludes she/he was mature and capable, and she/he gave consent, then I see no reason for a issue, ‘society’ should have no say complex personal matters, regardless if people think its creepy.
Re: Things like this should be a case by case basis
tldr:
Human sexual and social development is complex, there should never be a “one size fits all” solution for such matters.
Re: Re: Things like this should be a case by case basis
I can relate this back to my gaming group(not a clan, started as a squad from an old game called starsiege)
we had alot of members, one thing that always shocked me was how many of the teens in the group where more mature and level headed then their parents.
parents would blow up and act irrational, the kids would stay calm and think things out.
the parents would run on emotion and make snap decisions/judgement, the kids many times would again, stay calm and think things out before making a choice.
by kids, 12-16 range was common in our groop, male and female.
having worked at churches for many years running sound boards and such I can say i saw similar at the church, many times the teen group had more level heads then the church board or adults of the church.
also saw alot of bad choices by adults and kids in my time, some people never grow up or learn from life, and that wont change.
a few of the most reliable people at the last church i worked at where teens from the teen group, they would show up when they heard stuff needed done and would pitch in, they also would deal with some of the older folks and get them out of the way without the fight that would have happened had I tried the same thing….
No, I didnt have any sexual interest in any of the teens, I just was shocked how level headed so many of them where compared to their elders….
I think part of it was, many of them where there not for the religious aspect so much as for the belonging to a group that wasnt involved in drugs and such.
they had some very questionable choices among the group, some of the worst by the woman who ran(runs) it, she would have church sleepovers(lockins) and not have enough people watching what was going on, you would walk in and find teens sleeping togather (never caught humping but im sure it happened), but, she was a 46yo woman who should know better then to allow that…..
again, it just shocks me when people say teens cant reason or understand ramifications of their choices..and shouldnt be allowed to make choices….
I was allowed to fuck up as i grew up, and i learned from it….
hell, At times I would let them do something wrong so they would learn, many times they would cotton on long before they actually screwed up and would fix it(like putting stuff on shelves or stacking tables or dozens of other things)
adults on the other hand where known to often do things wrong/half arsed, then just leave it that way because….fuck it why bother fixing it..no downside to leaving ti that way, somebody else would fix it….
meh, im sure we will both be called pedos again, but biology and psychology are powerful forces, and teens on average arent as stupid as people think…
hell alot of times I have seen teens go from smart to dumb due to social pressure and examples they follow…..gotta fit in you know….
Ever since the 1880’s when so called “Educated People” said that criminals were victims and deserved to be forgiven for their crimes and their victims owed them restitution for being hurt or jailed this countries legal system has gone STUPID! And so have the people. Where does it say that a judge can reduce a major crime like that to 30 days? And if he can WHY hasn’t that rule, law or whatever been changed to something that makes sense? We need to throw away all the laws and start all over and make them simple so stupid people can understand the laws and what can happen to them. Black and white with only a little gray and A LOT of Common Sense.
The problem is the details.
CNN for example says the girl committed suicide (over 2 years later) but did not give a reason, implying it was due to the rape.
It could just have easily been that she was seriously infatuated with the guy, still was, and was despondent over the damage she’d done to his life.
When a 14yo and an adult end up in close proximity, it is always (always!( the adult’s responsibility to ensure nothing illegal or harmful happens to the child. Unless she drugged him, tied him up and jumped his bones – he is responsible for the act and its consequences. If she said :let me drive your car” and he let her, he’d be responsible. If he let her drink his alcohol and go out and walk in front of a truck, he’d be responsible. This is no different.
However, you can’t always control who you love (or more likely, become infatuated with). If there was no evidence of predation. if it was a consensual affair, then what’s the value in 20 years behind bars. His life is already in ruins – based on loss of career, sex offender status, and other cruel and unusual punishments of modern American law.
I would have though a year or two would be the appropriate sentence, especially if the girl’s suicide was due to he mess the prosecutor was putting the guy through.
Re: Re:
actually, by law in states with statutory rape laws, even if she drugged him, tied him up and jumped his bones, it would be his fault and he would get charged, the law is very clear on this, theres no excuse, one fellow I met got jummped by a 14yo girl when he was passed out drunk in his bedroom(his sisters basement), it was his neices friend who did it.
she admitted he was out cold, that she took his pants off and such, but hes still a sex offender…note: i saw tape of her testimony and she made it very clear she jummped him and he had no idea till the cops showed up after she blabbed to another friend….
again IT DOSNT MATTER HOW IT HAPPENS THE MAN IS GUILTY!!!
I do agree with what your saying but thats not how our system in this country works…
and be prepared your going to be called a rape appologist, pedophile and so on and so forth for not saying the guy needs burned at the stake or life in prison or similar.
Statutory rape isn’t rape. It’s a label we put on sex we don’t approve of.
There’s no link between the suicide and the sex itself. It was all the trouble surrounding this that was too much for her.
These kinds of laws are terrible, especially when they are forced upon people who have no wish to be labeled as victims.
In the not too far past, young adults (age 12 and up) married and constructed lives together. Modern society redefined the parameters of childhood/adulthood. Only when the masses of society feel besieged by actions they consider socially unacceptable do they re-designate the individual as an ?Adult? and meat out justice in accordance with the new denomination.
Statutory Rape
Ok, not sure if the people commenting here are more men than women, or both. I have only told 1 person this in my whole life and felt the need to comment, but here it goes. From a woman’s point a view who is now 46 looking back at her 10th (14-15yrs old) grade high school life. I had a gorgeous male typing teacher (28yrs old) that I had an infatuation (love for me at the time) on. This mas was married , no kids. I was emotionally more mature than my age. When I was 23-24yrs old my best girl friend was 40yrs old and to this day we still are best of friends, she is now 63. I had been kicked out of my home with my parents and out of the school I was in, and was living with an older married sister in a different state. I am the youngest of 6. Back to my story. I began a new school in a different state. I was in love with this teacher. I pretended to have a lot emotional distress (although I had a few problems, I did everything and anything to get his attention. I made it worse than it really was)so he would pay more attention to me. He spent a lot of time talking with me and trying to help, he was so kind. I knew he was attracted to me, you know, you can just tell. Anyway, I would have easily had sex with him, since this was 30 yrs ago and my age, I didn’t know of anything called statutory rape, guessing he did though. No matter what I did or said he would not go so far as to even kiss me. If this man would have decided to have sex with me, it would have been mutual. I wanted a relationship with him, he did not apparently. I knew exactly what I was doing and to this day, I still knew what I was doing. After time had passed a little, I ended up quitting school. (Btw, I am a college graduate.) If things would had turned out a little different and we did have sex, that man would have been not to blame what so ever! That is what I wanted. If we had, and he would have been caught somehow and was going to be sentenced to any amount of jail, a ruined career, marriage and so on, it would have completely devastated me and I would have done anything in my power to convince the courts or anyone one else involved it was not rape in any way or means. Would I have considered suicide? I really don’t know, but if I would not have, I would still be feeling horrible to this day if he had to serve a ridiculous jail sentence. I have never posted here, but felt the need for a few of you to realize you don’t know the whole story and you never will. I lived it and few have such an experience so I thought maybe a little insight from a different point of view could not hurt for such a sensitive case. People please don’t say rude things to me, it’s not easy telling a world of strangers something you have only told your closest, dearest friend. I can not change the past, and the past has made me who I am. I feel I’m a decent person, raised a terrific 27 yr old kid, have a awesome a career and have been with my husband for 16 yrs. Thanks for hearing me out, and please don’t judge me. Just remember sometimes things are not always as they seem.
Respectfully, L
Re: Statutory Rape
thanks for your comments, as I am sure you have noticed, I am the one taking most of the abuse here, I know more then one woman who has similar stories to yours, in some cases they got what they wanted…..but nobody got hurt….
Im glad you let them know your story, since so many here feel teens are all airheaded nitwits who cant make any choices or learn from their mistakes….
Re: Re: Statutory Rape
She one of the girls from your group?
“People please don’t say rude things to me…”
Seems she is a little flower that needs protecting.
From her explanation, I guess most men today can tell you what it is like to be an astronaut since most daydreamed about it in school.
Statutory Rape
Ahhh the joys of living in the USA One minute you are in a police state and the next you go Scot free for murder and Rape. You slam your borders shut so no one can get in, you build giant walls around your country to keep the strangers out. And look what you get instead useless courts and Secret Police listening in to your cell phones and Facebook. Little girls forced to kill them selves and the rapists get movie deals. Welcome to the Land of the Free and Home of the Brave. Oh and judges who like to rape little girls too.
Re: Statutory Rape
I suggest you read the story behind tims inflamitory blurb, and the other comments here.
1. it wasnt rape like you and he imply.
2. she likely killed herself due to the harm their relationship did to him not because of the relationship itself.
3. this jail time isnt for rape or even statutory rape, its for being kicked out of a treatment program, despite the fact he joined another one and completed treatment and on top of that is considered low risk (not a threat to anybody)
ah the joys of the internet, people jump to conclusions and want a guys guts on a stick(well in this case 2 guys, the judge and the creepy old man who had sex with this girl years ago…)
again, I dont agree with what he did, it wasnt ok, but he has been punished, he will be punished the rest of his life, he didnt force her to have sex with him, he didnt kill her.
He did something really fucking creepy and stupid….but it was not rape no matter what the law may say(actually, if you read the charge, it wasnt even a rape charge…rapes not part of the charge wording at all….)
Re: Re: Statutory Rape
Yes Azure I see that you are trying to defend. You can’t teach intelligence or empathy. Your welcome for telling my story. @ Sean- What on earth does what you said have to do with anything I said? I didn’t mention politics, borders, police or any other stupid thing you said. This will be my last comment. Best of luck Azure!
Re: Re: Re: Statutory Rape
threaded view, i suggest you use it.
Re:
back at you, you know what changed my stand on some of this, reading some stories and cases about it, then meeting some of the people involved in cases like this, not just like this mind but , cases where the guy was “too old” and girl “too young”
I took the stand many here still do, till the girls we heard from talked very passionately about how they where not victims and where not abused, hell, to a one the ones we saw said they had been the aggressor and 2 of them had later married the person.
I do agree this case differs, and I feel the guy needed punished….if for no other reason then his role and job.
and I dont go to the “its a-ok” stand either, I just think we need another term and better laws to deal with cases like this…..
and i saw that, infact on gender discussions (facebook group you should join) I posted that and some other very interesting things similar.
the talk over the link you posted was pretty long,some people even removed posts they made because they commented without fully reading the situation….and without understanding, even if hes removed from the SO reg, hes still a marked man…..all because a mother and daughter where fighting….and because the law has zero flexibility in it, even for a matter of months.
A couple of years ago, a professional soccer player in Australia was charged with having sex with a 13yo girl (Age of consent is 16 here). Afterwards charges were dropped because he “thought she was 16”, and that a conviction would cause substantial harm to his career as a professional sportsperson. He gets sledged massively by opposition crowds.
And a non-sportsperson who went to meet up with a 14yo girl who was an undercover cop was found not guilty because the idiotic jury believed his “I knew the person I was talking to wasn’t 14. Her words looked like someone pretending to be 14” – now even if that was true, why would you go and meet up someone pretending to be underage?
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You know those stings cops are always pulling off by pretending to be underage girls on the internet, getting guys to communicate with them and set up a meeting (having nothing better to do with their time, apparently)? I always thought this would be funny:
If you suspect a cop might be pulling this, engage “her” in conversation through an anonymous proxy or other method to hide your IP address.
Set up a meeting at a motel.
A bit before the meeting is to take place, go to a restaurant near the motel.
Enjoy your meal and a hearty laugh while looking out the window at the cops making asses of themselves!
Info
Ok so I need to fill people in on some info about this. I’m from Billings, where this story takes place.
First of all people, he did NOT rape the girl. He was convicted of *statutory* rape, and while I don’t personally condone what he did, you need to understand this was not a matter of sexual assault.
Second, the girl did not kill herself because of the relationship. The Prosecution had a weak case and put her under enormous pressure to take the stand and testify. Even though she was not named, everyone at her school knew who she was and she was subjected to a lot of ridicule. Because the other kids knew damn well she was nailing her teacher.
The last point people are missing is this was not the initial sentencing. He was sentenced some time ago, and while I personally think he got off easy, there was no outcry at that time. This sentencing was because he violated the terms of his plea bargain, and the public outrage is because people have short memories and the local media has made sure to only use the word “rape”, as opposed to a more accurate phrase such as “sex with a minor”.
Now just for the record, I personally think the judge should have thrown the book at him for not complying with his initial sentence. And this isn’t the first time this guy has run his mouth off and made an idiot out of himself.
But people are really making a lot more out of it than they should. As far as I’m concerned, the only one who victimized the girl was the Prosecuting attorney.
Billings is a pretty small town, barely over 100k in population, and local politics runs through this story in ways which are not obvious to people who aren’t from here.
Re: Info
glad to see my gut feeling on this was correct, and what i learned other places as well.
to bad that the persecution had to drive her to kill herself.
I would bet they made threats of her going to jail/prison and such as well, as thats quite common if they cant get you to do what they want…..anything to get what they want, even if its creating a victim.
as to the students…..well, i really doubt it was THAT bad, i mean kids can be cruel but, also tend to have short memories as well, most of the issue Im willing to bet falls back on the DA and the Cops who couldnt just let this go for her sake of nothing else.
and Im betting why they didnt throw the book, weak case as you said, hard to get a conviction when you cant get anybody to testify to somebodies guilt….
Re: Info
That’s right, man… she killed herself cause of the law, the cops, the school, the people around her!!!
C’mon, that’s a tragedy written between the pages of a penal code and a milkshake shared in a Bar…
This is sick...
Why’s that? Because the government says so?
Re: This is sick...
because the law in her state says shes to dumb-stupid to understand and be culpable for her actions/choices.
on the other hand, if she murdered somebody or committed armed robbery or the like, she would be culpable for her actions and would be charged as an adult.
not hypocrisy at all..
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Ok, all right, right…
The teacher get only 30 days to pass as an inmate and… A RUINED LIFE!!!
C’mon, how many of you watch Teen Porn on DVDs or at an XXX Cinema?!
Admit that!
How many of you look at a sexy girl with the tongue off the mouth?!
Admit that!!!
Ok, ok.. the teacher raped the girl ( or is the girl who raped teacher’s mind? )… nay, right, he has no excuse but he is a man and all we, men, are beasts…
Yeah, we say we have a brain, we have “God” on our side, we are proud and strong… How many efforts to hide the fact all we are beasts!!!
This is sick...
Dependent on jurisdiction period.
If America was truly the land of equality and all people were treated equally, this wouldn’t even be an issue.
Let me just state that I am who I am. What attracts me attracts me. I just put my paws up because I was born this way, baby!
It all depends on what “rape without consent” means. Does it mean she wasn’t at the age of consent and it was statutory rape?
Like Romeo and Juliet. Juliet is only 13 and most definitely older than her age. Views on age differences in sexual relations really depends on social norms which vary with culture and time. Gay rights are advancing all the time. How do we know our views on age wont simply be considered bigoted a few centuries down the road?
The fact that she committed suicide is sad indeed. But there are still far too many suicides from bullying. Which is worse: Sex or bullying? It all depends on the circumstances.
Last thing I want in America is justice run by angry mobs (online or not). Mob justice simply distracts people from channeling their rage into more constructive changes like pushing reform and prevention.
Sixteen going on seventeen...
Let’s say the AOC is 17. It is the night before a 16-year-old girl’s 17th birthday. It is 11:59 PM. At the stroke of midnight she will turn 17. And then, the clock strikes the magic hour…
So, what has changed so drastically in those 60 seconds? Why was she unable to consent just one minute before?
Ummmm…Don’t think so btrussell. Since I’m 46 I am not a little flower anymore who needs no one to do anything for me , hence I’ve been nice and I have also kick some ass in my lifetime . I don’t know Azure anymore than I know you, but at least Azure makes some sense!