That’s not entirely true. See the Steam sales where when they drop the price the sales go through the roof.

I don’t understand all of these gaming companies whether online, software, or on a console creating fees to actually progress in their games. Now this anti-used haterade, is pissing me off. It provides the gamer with the incentive to play and to resell it. These people, who run all of these industries don’t understand their profession–which is to innovate for profit.

You know what gets me to buy a game? It being available on PC and having mod options built in or at least mod-friendly design. The only games that I purchase and spend months and months playing instead of buying other games are ones that I or other creative people can mod to our hearts content. As an imaginative person, I’m never satisfied with the game developers telling me how a game should be played. Games, to me, are essentially entertainment tools. The exact use of the tool is up to the consumer, not the manufacturer.

Here’s an idea: instead of making Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 700 or Mass Effect 335.62, why not actually make a decent game for a change?

What to know what the real problem is? Just ask yourself this question: when was the last time anyone released a space combat game that could stand next to the old greats (like the Wing Commander series or Freespace 2) and not feel ashamed?

The problem is that games today lack depth. Lack of depth brings about a low replay value. Low replay value means that the game will be sold as soon as people are done with it.

I think you might want to try out some of the digital distribution services for the PC first. Steam, GoG’s, ect offer pretty good value for the money if you avoid freemium games and console ports.

Seriously,

I’ve yet to see a space exploration game that can compete with Elite for depth of play and open ended options….

Even the Wing Commander games replaced some of the game ‘depth’ with graphics and cut-scenes…

I would love to see an open ended (aka Elite style) space exploration game that combined depth of play with today’s graphic capabilities….

Steam was why I went to consoles in the first place.

I thought the same thing but blizzard did a good job with StarCraft 2. Plus the mod community is large with that game. I have not felt the need to use a LAN feature since the online feature is pretty nice.

Used game sales do hurt developers, this is fact. And the fact is, when all games go digital distribution, used games will no longer be a problem… I expect this change in the next-gen consoles… Also, PC was ahead of the game long before consoles… 😛

I never played Mass Effect, but from what I’ve read, it’s just another shooter that they’ve dumbed down as the game count increased (and I bet they’ll be making more, as long as they keep selling and I also bet they keep finding ways to make it even dumber).

You want depth in a shooter? Try Deus Ex. The first one that is, not the aberrations that came after it bearing the same name.

Now that is what I mean by depth.

“Fee you to death” approach

is not really indicative of digital download AAA games, so much as it is the freemium downloads more closely associated with portable devices.

Most of the arguments I have read against digital distro models is fear of the vendors implementation. Not so much an actual limitation with the model itself, as Valve has proven successful many times over.

It’s also true of *PC* gamers, so what’s your point?

Wing Commander and Freespace2?

I havn’t seen a decent space game since Space Quest VI: Roger Wilco The Spinal Frontier.

This is the new model of gaming = fees till you give up.
There has been a shift in business, that is they don’t give a fuck about their customers they only care about how much they can get out of them. We do it too. It’s like the financial sector now.

Before (DRM-Digital RENTAL Media) I bought several new titles a year. Now that they are killing the market with their BS , I buy 0 new physical copies a year. I buy LEGALLY through steam for a fraction of the price knowing that I can NEVER resell the game if I am done with it or just plain don’t like it. Now I will NOT pay more than $20 for any game since I KNOW that my time with it is limited and I can NOT share/resell it anytime/anywhere. So today, I complain about it much less knowing that their own stupid BS is hurting them and not really me as I pay much less a year towards my video gaming now and actually have more games to play.

So There!

What’s next? Outlawing the entire USED market industry? Cars, homes, clothes, appliances, etc? Every industry with a “used” market could put out the same “the sky is falling” cry. Where would it stop? None of those industries has a problem with the Used marketplace.

Mass Effect was never a “shooter.” It’s a hybrid RPG/shooter much like Deux Ex. The “dumbing down” IMO was making it just a little bit more of a shooter than an RPG from 1 to 2. ME1 had more character customization than ME2 IMO. Also seemed to allow for much more backtracking. ME2 improved on the shooter aspects of the game as well as the story being stronger. Regardless, the ME games are story driven unlike the Modern Warfares and the countless other FPS sequels, and both are fantastic. Don’t know if you’ve played any other Bioware RPGs, but the ME series is a very welcome addition.

I have not played 3 so I can’t speak for it. I’ll buy it when it’s a $19.99 “Platinum Hit” or whatever MS calls the games like I do the majority of my XBOX games.

Even non-steam games are heavily attached to things that will go away. Any form of DRM will make the game effectively useless in 10 years when the authentication servers are gone. There are many articles about the importance of piracy in maintaining access to old games and media.

“Once it does, you entire collection is gone, unless you crack it to bypass Steam authentication – in which case, you’d be a criminal for violating anti-circumvention provisions.”

Just like every DRM these days.

“you still have the problem that some games require Steam for multiplayer matchmaking (as far as I know).”

Just like any game that doesn’t allow users to host their own dedicated servers. You think your xbox games will be playable online in 5 years? A large % of steam games and all Valve games allow people to host their own servers. So it is not really a steam issue, though it is an issue with the industry and any game that does not allow this.

Hell look at EA shutting down servers for games

How many developers of ‘used games’ are there? I’m guessing the number is close to zero, therefor we can extrapolate that used games have ‘killed’ the ‘used game’ development market and that no developers are currently working on developing ‘used games’….

Obviously you are correct, used games have completely eliminated one class of developers….

Wait, what’s that, the developers of the ‘new games’ are also the developers of the ‘used games’…. so who was put out of work again? Must be some middleman somewhere who isn’t getting his cut and trying to frame the discussion that he’s ‘saving the used game developers….’

No I’m serious, why do you ask?

Not all steam games use steamworks DRM and are therefore not bound to them but that is not the issue I want to discuss.

Are console games not bound to the provider? Xbox games are bound to microsoft and their continued support of a console the plays them. The could just as easily turn off their network and kill all online play, or stop making consoles making games unplayable in ~5 years when all the existing systems break down. Same for any other console. And don’t tell me you think xboxs will be around in 20 years because NES still is.

What about all the games bound to publishers? Games with any kind of authentication or cd-key or online verification? Do you avoid all games with DRM?

There is one and only one way I will do something like Steam.

Don’t pretend either ownership or scarcity, you’re just insulting my intelligence. Make it a subscription service with full access to the catalog for a monthly fee. I don’t expect the games to stay after I stop paying, so if things go away, I shrug my shoulders and move on.

Same here. And every time I hear this tired old QQ’ing over used games, I care less and less about the game makers. It’s very simple:

Your games are overpriced. Yes, people will flock to buy them in the first 1-2 weeks a game is out at $60. After that, no one but the completely uninformed are paying that price. Deal with it. That’s not going to change.

Your games are so overpriced, that a whole industry has emerged, used game sales. Yes, you are the reason this industry exists. No, fucking over fans is not going to make it go away. You know what is? Fixing your prices.

In the first 2 weeks of a game’s release, have some kind of “event” which you can only get in that timeframe. Be it skins, special gear, special stages/maps/competitions, whatever. Have something to make people want to jump in at that time. After 2 weeks, drop the price of a new game from $60 to $50. Offer something significantly smaller, but something (if you were offering a special set of skins, then you only get 1 skin now). After 1-2 months, drop it to $40 and remove all special stuff offered. After 5-6 months, drop it to $30. After a year, $20. After 2 years, $10. You know what happens when you do that?

1) Gamestop’s profit on used games plummets. They can’t offer used what a game is offering new, and after a short time, the price drops enough that they’d have to drop their used game prices just to keep up.

2) Gamestop has 2 choices: offer even less than the pathetic amount they give for trade-ins or take lower profits. When they inevitably screw fans over and give less money, then they have less stock of used games and the business goes downhill a bit on that front.

3) They actually see profits for games for a much longer period of time.

4) If a game sells poorly at first, then when they drop the price, they have a built-in sale. “We’re dropping the price of Madden Crapfest, buy now before we’re out of stock of the ones with an unlockable code to break the leg of whoever we put on the cover!”

All that said, I still think the rumors of the “no disc drive” consoles are BS. But, if game-makers are that short-sighted and keep with the same pricing models as they have for this generation, then congrats, they will have lost someone who has owned a console since 1987 and since the 16-bit era, has owned 2+ consoles every single generation. Why?

Go look at the price of any game on XBL or PSN that’s over a year old. It’s tough to find historic data sometimes, but find one which came out at $15 (of course, $15 of their fun bucks). I guarantee you it’s not dropped below $10 and other than an occasional sale which will get it down to $7.50, it will never get down any lower.

Now unplug your internet connection and try to play any of the ones you’ve already paid for and “bought” (really, long-term rented).

Thanks for the convenience of direct download, but I want a real market price, not BS price-fixing and I want to own what I buy, not rent.

They can’t just forbid you from reselling the game.

There’s some pretty old precedents on this matter already. Attempts to engage in price fixing or the banning of resale through “licenses” on copies of works have already been dispensed with.

> Are console games not bound to the provider?

No. I can sit it on a shelf for 10 years and still use it so long as I have hardware to play it with.

There are even retro consoles now that can play cartridges from various “nostalgia” platforms.

Princess Leia: The more you tighten your grip, Tarkin, the more star systems will slip through your fingers.

Oh, game developers. Are you going to go the way of the legacy entertainment industry? Here is the thing; if someone with limited disposable income (90% of us) is given the choice to spend the $25 on a used game (and possibly purchase additional DLC for that used title) or pay full price for the title new, they will buy the used game. Now, lets take away the $25 dollar option. The gamer’s options are:
1.) Pay the full price, $60, plus on disk DLC or day 1 DLC that you purchase for extra or whatever bullshit the devs put on there.
-or-
2.)Pirate it (no DLC sales, no game sale).

WWJD? Option 2. 😉

“Browne writes. “The real cost of used games is the death of single player gaming.”

And this is why I don’t buy as many games as I used to lately. And it’s why over half the games on my computer I play on a regular basis are over 10 years old.

I don’t want game with DRM restrictions that force me to be online just for single player games, even for game series that multiplayer sucks on. I still have a new game I got 4 months ago from Christmas I haven’t even opened yet because of that kind of DRM on it. That and the game was really buggy because they released it like 6 months too early from what I read online.

I also don’t like online games with a monthly fee for a few reasons.
-I tend to play a game for a few weeks or months, then get tired of it for months or years. I can’t do that very easily with an online game with a monthly fee. I don’t even know if my saved games/characters/account is still going to be there 6 months later.
-Most of them charge you $20 bucks or more just to buy the game in the first place, or worse yet, release expansion after expansion you have to go pay another $20+ bucks to buy in a store. This is just double or triple dipping in my book.

Nerds starting making lots of money with their hobby of making games. They brought in business people to help with the stuff they didn’t want to deal with. Now business people call the shots and run the companies. The publishers are in control not the nerds and the publishers just care about money not the game.

There are some companies that rise above this but its the general trend of the industry. Kickstarter has given a lot of power back to the nerds though.

hmmm cant use less than signs?

that is suppose to end:
…is less than 10$.

Well the day you have been waiting for has arrived http://guysfromandromeda.com/

“And, I predict, the overall sales of the games will decrease.”

I would agree the overall sales of full priced games will decrease. I would bet the amount of money spent on games will stay right where it is.

Its the same bullshit logic as the other media industries. People only have so much money to spend on entertainment. Taking away low priced options will not increase the amount they spend. People will either play less games or buy more games after prices go down.

I see more and more people waiting for steam sales or goty editions. A person can only get burned so many times before he stops pre-ordering and/or the release hype stops effecting them.

What JMG said above me but also most of those reasons for increasing cost of development are problems the industry has brought on itself.

That is really why I am ok with it. For 5-10$ I consider the purchase a rental. I get full access, I can play it at my own pace without returning it and if in a few years it ends up disappearing oh well I got my 5$ worth.

I am also not above downloading a crack and burning that to a dvd with compressed version of my game files to keep as a back-up. But I am upset that this is something I feel I have to do sometimes. It is sad how dependent we are on an illegal act to maintain access to important parts of gaming culture in the future.

http://technologizer.com/2012/01/23/why-history-needs-software-piracy/

” I’d bet there’s at least one room full of people that wish they could go back in time and un-invent Counterstrike.”

thankfully that group isn’t the makers of Counter-strike. But yes its the divide between the business people and the game people. Some people want to make a living doing what they love, hell some people do it even when they don’t make a living at it. These people tend to do a great job and the few that run companies have great companies that do a great job. However this is a minority of the people in power in the industry.

The argument made here is that used games allow for a low cost of entry into a gaming system or a franchise title. I think publishers are not only well aware of this argument, but also agree with it. When Assassin’s Creed 2 was on the way, the first one was dubbed a “PS3 Classic” and sold new for $20. Same with Uncharted and Uncharted 2, Little Big Planet, etc. They established a low cost of entry to get me interested in the franchise, and it worked. I don’t believe there is any question of the validity of the argument, or anyone’s acceptance of it. I think it’s simply a question of wanting complete market control by whatever means possible. The used games issue is a red herring.

I bought Dead Space 1 for 10 bucks used. I loved it so much that I pre-purchased the sequel for 60 bucks. It was worth every penny. That’s how you compete with the used game market. Make good games that people don’t want to wait to play. But if you suck at making good games I guess blaming used games sales is a lot easier than admitting that your game sucks.

“I’ve owned every console system since my Father bought us a Pong home game, where the only game you could play was PONG…”

Oh, man, you got hosed. We had one that played pong, tennis, table tennis, and racquetball.

your comment made me think of a used stripper market

I agree, this argument along with the piracy and drm arguments are really the smoke screen so big industry players can do dastardly things to keep market control.

What AC said about the risk being undertaken by Gamestop. That’s what I was hinting at.

I don’t buy used games. I have once though. I also don’t pay $60 for games. I typically wait until they drop to at least $30, but usually hold off until they are in the “greatest hits” category and priced at $20.

The one game I purchased used is Castlevania Symphony of the Night for the Playstation. I missed out on it when it was new, and the only copy I was every able to find was a used one. It was a greatest hits used one too. It was like $8. I think the greatest hits went for like $15 at the time. Hell, I purchased it a second time on XBOX Live just because my Playstation had gone teats up, and I didn’t feel like bothering with an emulator.

Besides, there’d be no used game market unless people are out buying new copies of games to begin with. I don’t see there being a lack of new games out there. To me, this is more of a case that they feel they aren’t making ENOUGH money on their specific games, not that they aren’t making any money at all.

quit following me around repeating my points my eloquently than me :b

All I can hear from this Mr. Richard Browne is:

*shrill* “Teh skai iz folling!” *shrill* “Gaems r dummd!” *shrill*

I agree with alot of what you said and the issues they have with used game sales are a symptom of their own problems but I really hate the generalization of all used game sales are bad when they only really have issue with a specific case…

There is only one part of used game sales that is significantly changed over time, and which is what I’m assuming is the major issue with used game sales. It isn’t used game sales that is hurting, it’s the cut-throat sales tactics these retailers are using. The used version of a game is $3-10 dollars less than a new copy, that’s perfectly legal and typical business as usual (which is profit driven decisions that employ a con artist’s morality).

It was a little different when you had more used game bins of 8+ month old games instead of used versions of game being shoved down your thoat when you even try to buy new.

Now they want to go to digital downloads only on top of all the other BS. So when xbox live or steam discontinues support I cant play at all.

My Solution- I now buy board games. Companies like Fantasy Flight and Zman make some really fun stuff .

1. Once I buy it I can keep it forever.
2. I can trade or sell it any time I want.
3. I can buy used at a game store or even a thrift store and nobody can say a thing about it.
4. I can customize the rules any way I want, even make my own content- and nobody can stop me.

5. They are often designed with far more depth and replayability than modern video games.

The list of reasons goes on ad naseum. Video game developers better realize they aren’t the only gaming medium out there and wake up. For around $100 each Fantasy Flight’s Descent: Journeys in the Dark or the Axis and Allies series either one can keep you engrossed for years without constantly buying DLC or expansions and that’s just two games. There are hundreds.

This is one of the reasons I will no longer buy consoles. Their walled gardens are as bad as Apples.

The prices ARE too high, though this is not the case for everybody, me and many people I know find ourselves constantly waiting for prices to drop down, or waiting for the games that we want to be “used”.