US Chamber Of Commerce Quickly Showing That It's Out Of Touch, As Google, CEA Consider Dropping Out

from the which-sector-creates-jobs? dept

We've been pointing out for a while just how incredibly out of touch the US Chamber of Commerce is these days. The giant lobbying firm (not to be confused with the US Department of Commerce -- a government agency), has consistently been taking a position that is anti-innovation, anti-growth and anti-jobs. It does this by supporting protectionist policies for just a few large companies who pay it a ton. It never supports innovative upstarts. Over the past few years, that's meant that it's been losing the true innovators, the companies who actually create jobs and contribute to economic growth today. Apple dumped the US CoC two years ago over its anti-science position on climate change. Yahoo recently refused to renew its membership out of disgust over the Chamber's position on PROTECT IP/SOPA. And now there are reports saying that both Google and the Consumer Electronics Association are considering dropping out of the Chamber over its support of PROTECT IP/SOPA. Kind of silly to call yourself the "US Chamber of Commerce" when all of the companies in industries that actually involve innovation are dropping your for your anti-innovation position, isn't it?


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    pjcamp, Nov 7th, 2011 @ 5:41am

    not to be confused with local chambers either

    many of which are also dropping association with the US Chamber.

    The US CoC was taken over by Republican-associated lobbyists years ago and basically serves as a means of cloaking Republican party interests in a veneer of respectability.

     

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      E. Zachary Knight (profile), Nov 7th, 2011 @ 7:10am

      Re: not to be confused with local chambers either

      Regulatory capture is just as much a Democratic platform as it is a Republican platform. Add to that, the whims of Hollywood are just as obeyed by both major parties. So It is hard to really blame this just on Republicans.

       

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        Trails (profile), Nov 7th, 2011 @ 7:29am

        Re: Re: not to be confused with local chambers either

        True dat. Given the way the Obama administration has stacked the DoJ with Hollywood lawyers, it's hard to lay all this solely at the feet of the Republicans.

         

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        Jay (profile), Nov 7th, 2011 @ 7:33am

        Radicalism or reform? You decide

        We need two things in this country:

        Vote reform
        Electoral reform

        Vote reform comes in finding a better process to elect people in office than the current First to Post system that allows for attacks on them to add votes without receipts.

        Electoral reform allows for less money in politics so everyone can get a shot. It would restrict gerrymandering, allow for competitive races and not allow for safe campaigns that are currently the norm in this country. You have a 50-50 shot at being the next person in office. Why are the odds so far against a third party in this country? Get the money out of politics. Make it a requirement that only a certain amount can go in for all sides, and the federal government is barred from assisting anyone in the interest of fairness.

        Here's hoping the OWS crowd exposes these two major problems that continue to plague the US. I have a strong feeling if you make one (voting) to work, everything else will line up.

         

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    gorehound (profile), Nov 7th, 2011 @ 5:43am

    It is good to see these Companies dropping out.This US CoC is doing no good when it comes to innovation and the Internet.

     

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    jduhls, Nov 7th, 2011 @ 5:56am

    I'd say google is out of touch for not leaving much sooner.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Nov 7th, 2011 @ 6:00am

    Odd question:

    Could the "US Department of Commerce" get into some sort of trouble with the "US Chamber of Commerce" for deliberately confusing trademarks.



    (Yes, I know those are the wrong way around)

     

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    That Anonymous Coward (profile), Nov 7th, 2011 @ 6:01am

    Imagine what we could have today if they actually did what they claimed they stood for.

    Hopefully more players will leave them and not wait for the convenient answer of we just opted to not renew. That they will leave and make public statements that the CoC is just focused on helping a few members stifle innovation that scares them.

    As more large players withdraw the CoC will have to try to spend even more money to help officials overlook they only represent those who refuse to embrace the future. And those officials will be in the sad position of having to justify why they support the people "donating" to them rather than the country.

     

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    bob, Nov 7th, 2011 @ 6:06am

    Yup, there's no way that Big Hardware and Big Search are out of touch

    This blog is filled with knee-jerk supporters of Big Search and Big Hardware. Anything that threatens their royalty-free access to tons of content is flogged.

    But I submit that most Americans would rather have a strong copyright rule than unfettered access to all of the free content that Big Search and Big Hardware can serve up. Why? Because most Americans aren't lazy couch potatoes. They have jobs and they know that the creators are working hard. Just as they want to be paid, they know that the creators need to pay for health insurance, a roof and some food too.

    Furthermore, most Americans understand that strong copyright favors them when they actually create something. Most Americans like to keep control over their creations. Oh, they're happy to share with things like the GPL or the CC license, but they want to be the ones to make the decision.

    This blog believes that it's the billionaires at Big Search and Big Hardware who get to make unilateral decisions and keep all of the revenue that comes from their royal declaration that copyright doesn't hold in this case. They're doing something cool and that should be a "Get Out of Jail Free" card.

    (Pay no attention to those crypto scientists doing something with DRM. That's not innovation. Nope. It can't be. Innovation is just a buzzword that applies to infringement.)

     

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      abc gum, Nov 7th, 2011 @ 6:27am

      Re: Yup, there's no way that Big Hardware and Big Search are out of touch

      Apparently you missed the part where PROTECT IP/SOPA has more to do with censorship than it does with copyright or trademark.

      Do you have a link to the study or survey which supports your claim that "most Americans would rather have a strong copyright rule than unfettered access"?

      "most Americans understand that strong copyright favors them" I highly doubt this claim. You got anything in support of it?

      Yeah - I didn't think so.


      "This blog believes ... "
      ... in fair use

      "Innovation is just a buzzword that applies to infringement"
      And this is exactly what the PROTECT IP/SOPA people think.

       

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        bob, Nov 7th, 2011 @ 6:34am

        Re: Re: Yup, there's no way that Big Hardware and Big Search are out of touch

        Dude. It's not censorship to shut down a site that's either infringing or leading others to infringers. Censorship is when someone stops you from expressing your own views, not when someone stops you from stealing, borrowing or simply repeating another person's opinions. Sheesh.

        These sites have nothing to do with free expression. They have nothing to do with fair use. They wouldn't even qualify for authorship under the Feist decision because they add so little to the world. They're pure leeches.

        And it's easy to make a survey say whatever you want. I'm sure 95% of the people support an artist's right to choose what happens to their work. And I'm sure that 95% support the freedom to do what you want with your computer. The surveys prove nothing because they don't help us split the baby.

         

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          Rich, Nov 7th, 2011 @ 6:40am

          Re: Re: Re: Yup, there's no way that Big Hardware and Big Search are out of touch

          I stopped reading at "dude."

           

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          abc gum, Nov 7th, 2011 @ 6:41am

          Re: Re: Re: Yup, there's no way that Big Hardware and Big Search are out of touch

          Yes - I realize that you are are willfully ignorant or simply dishonest.

           

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            Anonymous Coward, Nov 7th, 2011 @ 7:29am

            Re: Re: Re: Re: Yup, there's no way that Big Hardware and Big Search are out of touch

            Hey Einstein- censoring is removing my material that I posted, not removing my material that you posted.

            No amount of lying by the buffoon Mike Masnick will change that.

             

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              abc gum, Nov 7th, 2011 @ 7:52am

              Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Yup, there's no way that Big Hardware and Big Search are out of touch

              "Hey Einstein"

              Thank you for your vote of confidence.


              "ensoring is removing my material that I posted, not removing my material that you posted."

              Yup - and screw fair use - amirite?


              "No amount of lying by the buffoon Mike Masnick will change that."

              Who is it that is attempting to effect change? Possibly you have lost sight of this tidbit - no?

               

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                Ninja (profile), Nov 7th, 2011 @ 8:07am

                Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Yup, there's no way that Big Hardware and Big Search are out of touch

                New trolling words of the month: buffoon and couch potatoes.

                You can see a troll from the distance.

                 

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                Anonymous Coward, Nov 7th, 2011 @ 8:10am

                Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Yup, there's no way that Big Hardware and Big Search are out of touch

                Do you prefer idiot? Cuz piracy isn't fair use.

                 

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                  abc gum, Nov 7th, 2011 @ 8:17am

                  Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Yup, there's no way that Big Hardware and Big Search are out of touch

                  For everyones edification, please define both piracy and fair use. Bonus points for drawing a well defined line between them with real world examples.

                  I eagerly await your well thought out response.

                   

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                    Anonymous Coward, Nov 7th, 2011 @ 9:03am

                    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Yup, there's no way that Big Hardware and Big Search are out of touch

                    basically everything on Demonoid isn't fair use.

                    How's that?

                    oh wait,

                    silly me, you were being willfully ignorant again...

                     

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                      MrWilson, Nov 7th, 2011 @ 9:30am

                      Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Yup, there's no way that Big Hardware and Big Search are out of touch

                      Actually, some people do use Demonoid for the distribution of authorized content, so that's not only fair use but completely legal use.

                      How is any person supposed to know that the content creator didn't intentionally "leak" their own content? Some artists have come out in favor of having their content "pirated" which means that such "pirating" is de facto legal.

                      Not to mention fair use is only an American concept. Other countries have other laws and so Demonoid content may be legal in other places.

                      Also, fair use is only determined by a judge or jury in a court of law, so you can't genuinely say anything is or isn't fair use until it's been taken to court. Of course, RIAA lawyers have argued in court that home copying for backup purposes or format-shifting aren't even fair use (http://arstechnica.com/old/content/2006/02/6190.ars), so who is to trust an IP shill since they'll support any argument that involves them making more money?

                       

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                        Anonymous Coward, Nov 7th, 2011 @ 11:23am

                        Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Yup, there's no way that Big Hardware and Big Search are out of touch

                        willful ignorance is not a valid legal defense.

                        Ask any lawyer or judge.

                         

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                          MrWilson, Nov 7th, 2011 @ 12:37pm

                          Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Yup, there's no way that Big Hardware and Big Search are out of touch

                          You're assuming all torrents are illegal and infringing. You are the one who is willfully ignorant.

                          Nobody is pointing out which Demonoid torrents are legal or illegal, and in which jurisdictions, and for which types of use, and nobody, except a court of law, can actually determine in every scenario for every uploader/downloader which actions are legal or illegal.

                          Real Example: Viacom actually uploaded some of the supposedly infringing content over which it later sued YouTube for hosting infringing content.

                          If even the copyright holder cannot be trusted to verify which content is infringing, how do you expect anyone else to just be able to look at it and say, "yep, this is definitely infringing" ?

                          And of course the IP maximalist answer would be, "if you don't know if it's legal, don't use it," but that would preclude the public from using a lot of content that is legally available for free or is used in accordance with fair use principles that would stand up in court if only the user had the endless bags of money from which to pay a lawyer to defend them from corporate legal strong-arming, simply because so much content gets passed around on the internet without a reliable copyright notice. Not to mention that a lot of people will claim copyright on content that isn't even theirs.

                           

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                          btrussell (profile), Nov 8th, 2011 @ 2:43am

                          Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Yup, there's no way that Big Hardware and Big Search are out of touch

                          http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20111003/00211916175/why-some-easy-legal-questions-arent-always-so- easy-is-burrito-sandwich.shtml#c321

                          If we need lawyers to determine what a sandwich is, then I'd say ignorance of the law is an excuse.

                           

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                            Anonymous Coward, Nov 8th, 2011 @ 3:34am

                            Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Yup, there's no way that Big Hardware and Big Search are out of touch

                            That's a pretty funny statement, considering all the freetards on this site talk like lawyers when they toss out their silly semantical rationalizations for ripping off what they want to consume but not pay for.

                             

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                              btrussell (profile), Nov 8th, 2011 @ 5:43am

                              Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Yup, there's no way that Big Hardware and Big Search are out of touch

                              I don't see/hear too many here wanting something for nothing.

                              Hell, I tried to buy a game the other day for the sole purpose of testing my new PC. I don't need or want any more games. Nothing at the store interested me. Plus they had more used games than new ones. I want a new specs demanding game. I want to make this PC perform. I'll go back and try again later, not download off of torrents, where I get my Linux fixes from.

                              One thing I have noticed in my lifetime though, is that people accuse others of what they themselves do. People think everyone thinks as they themselves do.

                              Makes me wonder at some of the accusations that fly around here.

                               

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                      abc gum, Nov 7th, 2011 @ 11:03am

                      Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Yup, there's no way that Big Hardware and Big Search are out of touch

                      "How's that?"

                      You definitely need to step up your game. I believe Mr. Wilson has scored all the points.

                       

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                    MrWilson, Nov 7th, 2011 @ 9:18am

                    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Yup, there's no way that Big Hardware and Big Search are out of touch

                    "Piracy" - armed robbery, assault, rape, and/or murder on the high seas, or any action that corporate lobbyists, lawyers, and shills oppose, including consumers using media as consumers see fit; see also "IP terrorism" and "It's all just child pr0n - won't somebody think of the children?".

                    fair use - a common misspelling of "fare use," which involves a "pirate"/customer avoiding the payment of a fare for a use of IP that should otherwise be licensed through the proper channels for exorbitant sums.

                     

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                      Jay (profile), Nov 7th, 2011 @ 5:00pm

                      Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Yup, there's no way that Big Hardware and Big Search are out of touch

                      Piracy - a term used by Jack Valenti to criminalize opposition and make it easier to pass laws condemning people for behavior hurting the accounting practices of trade industries.

                       

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              The Incoherent One (profile), Nov 7th, 2011 @ 8:14am

              Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Yup, there's no way that Big Hardware and Big Search are out of touch

              I thought Dark Helmet covered this type of commentary last week?

               

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              Richard, Nov 7th, 2011 @ 10:33am

              Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Yup, there's no way that Big Hardware and Big Search are out of touch

              Hey Einstein- censoring is removing my material that I posted, not removing my material that you posted.


              OK - let's frame the copyright enforcement regime so that that is ALL that happens-big content won't be happy with that.

              The problem is that rightsholders are both lazy and greedy - they want to avoid the workload of actually sifting the infringing material from the rest and so they promote laws that will result in large amounts of collateral damage.

              Plus "copyright infringement" is all too often used as a smokescreen for censorship - as numerous stories on this site attest.

               

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                Anonymous Coward, Nov 7th, 2011 @ 11:26am

                Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Yup, there's no way that Big Hardware and Big Search are out of touch

                The lies that Mike Masnick tells on this site are not proof that copyright infringement is all too often used as a smokescreen for censorship.

                He just tries to spin things that way to rationalize himself and you breaking the law.

                 

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          btrussell (profile), Nov 7th, 2011 @ 6:50am

          Re: Re: Re: Yup, there's no way that Big Hardware and Big Search are out of touch

          It's easy to split the baby.

          Either share or don't share.

          Then I can decide whether I want to donate $10 to Johny Depp or my Doctor. Whichever I value the most.

           

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          Josh in CharlotteNC (profile), Nov 7th, 2011 @ 7:07am

          Re: Re: Re: Yup, there's no way that Big Hardware and Big Search are out of touch

          It's not censorship to shut down a site that's either infringing or leading others to infringers.

          Wrong. If you are shutting down a website, you are censoring the owner of that website from expressing their views.

          Whether censoring the website is justified is an open question.

          I'm even willing to admit that it is within the realm of possibility that censoring a website for copyright infringement could be a general societal good, although I want to see evidence or at least clearly logical reasons how and why.

          But it is still censorship.

           

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            bob, Nov 7th, 2011 @ 12:35pm

            Re: Re: Re: Re: Yup, there's no way that Big Hardware and Big Search are out of touch

            And when you put a gangster in jail for ordering a killing, you're censoring the gangster. It's all speech, right? Speech is sacred!

            The jails are filled with people who did nothing but talk about where and when and how to commit the crime instead of actually performing the act. They're called accessories to the crime and they're often given similar sentences.

            Yet I'm sure you're such a believer in free speech that you see these folks as protected by the first amendment.

             

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              Jay (profile), Nov 7th, 2011 @ 5:06pm

              Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Yup, there's no way that Big Hardware and Big Search are out of touch

              Do you have statistics to this bob, or are you talking out of your ass?

              Last I checked, prisoners were in.. ya know... PRISON because of public policy changes causing more prison sentences and lengthening time served, e.g. through mandatory minimum sentencing, "three strikes" laws, and reductions in the availability of parole or early release.

              But feel free to actually have a point rather than this BS you're spouting.

               

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              Josh in CharlotteNC (profile), Nov 8th, 2011 @ 12:38am

              Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Yup, there's no way that Big Hardware and Big Search are out of touch

              And when you put a gangster in jail for ordering a killing, you're censoring the gangster.

              Yes, you are censoring the gangster for something he said.

              It's censorship, and yes, the First Amendment does come into play. But let's look at the other facts:

              1) This speech caused real harm - to another person's life, their family and friends were impacted, and there is the impact and resource cost to society. There is even the cost to the other gang members who carried out the orders, as they are presumably in jail.

              2) Prior to the gangster being arrested, an investigation was conducted and evidence was gathered. This evidence must be of sufficient quality. Usually a district attorney would need to sign off on the police holding the gangster when he is arrested (depending on the case, sometimes before or shortly after the arrest).

              3) Shortly after the gangster was arrested, he was put before a judge and the evidence was reviewed. The judge then decides whether to hold him, pending a trial, or to release him on bail. Bail is an interesting concept in and of itself - even if the judge thinks the evidence is sufficient for the gangster to probably be found guilty, the gangster still has a chance at freedom until the trial is actually completed - all bail is is a type of insurance that the gangster will be at the trial.

              4) At trial, the gangster is allowed to refute any evidence gathered against him, and supply any of his own evidence. He can hire an expert lawyer to defend him, and even if he can't afford one, he is given a lawyer to defend him. A judge oversees the trial, and a jury of he gangster's peers (normal member of society) decides on his guilt or innocence.

              5) After trial, even if he is found guilty, there are still possibilities of appeal.

              We have decided as a society that all of these steps are absolutely necessary when the government wishes to deprive someone of the various freedoms they enjoy. This is necessary for even someone who has ordered the violent killing of another human being.

              Yet you wish to deprive someone of their freedom of expression via SOPA for creating a website that cannot be positively shown to even cause the slightest monetary damage to a corporation, where no evidence is required, where no presumption of innocence exists, where no prior hearing is granted, in which private entities have all the power and decision making ability, and in which appeals seem unlikely.

               

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              Martin Halstead, Nov 8th, 2011 @ 9:45am

              Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Yup, there's no way that Big Hardware and Big Search are out of touch

              "The jails are filled with people who did nothing but talk about where and when and how to commit the crime"

              Nope.

              The "attempted XXX" or "conspiracy to commit XXX" crimes that you refer to require evidence of a substantial step in aid of the proposed crime/conspiracy. E.g,:

              [1] it is not illegal to talk of killing your spouse. It becomes illegal when you contact someone with the intent of hiring them to kill your spouse. (Substantial step.)

              [2] It is not illegal to talk about making meth, read how to make meth, or even to post his to make meth on the internet. However, if, coupled with these steps, you buy or attempt to buy the precursor ingredients you have performed a "substantial step" and can be charged with endeavoring to manufacture a controlled substance.

              Even in terrorism cases, note how the Government infiltrator always encourages or facilitates an overt step towards the conspiracy, e.g. puts them in touch with a fake assassin, fake explosives dealer etc.

              Attempted (name of crime) requires just that, some form of attempt. Just talking about it seldom if ever qualifies.

               

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          E. Zachary Knight (profile), Nov 7th, 2011 @ 7:13am

          Re: Re: Re: Yup, there's no way that Big Hardware and Big Search are out of touch

          If this law shuts down Youtube or another similar site, it is censoring speech that is not infringing. That is what this law does. It is a shotgun approach to a problem that needs surgical precision.

           

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            Gwiz (profile), Nov 7th, 2011 @ 7:31am

            Re: Re: Re: Re: Yup, there's no way that Big Hardware and Big Search are out of touch

            That is what this law does. It is a shotgun approach to a problem that needs surgical precision.

            More like using a flamethrower instead of a flyswatter.

            Sure, you might torch your own house and half the neighborhood, but the odds are pretty good that you'll get that pesky fly eventually.

             

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          Anonymous Coward, Nov 7th, 2011 @ 7:19am

          Re: Re: Re: Yup, there's no way that Big Hardware and Big Search are out of touch

          I fail to see why you, bob, would be so anti-artist and anti-creator. What is this weird obsession you have with fucking creators in the ass and depriving them of money?

           

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          jupiterkansas (profile), Nov 7th, 2011 @ 7:29am

          Re: Re: Re: Yup, there's no way that Big Hardware and Big Search are out of touch

          I understand your point, but the PROTECT-IP laws are not going to fix the problem.

          And this "big search" you keep talking about is just one company. Why not just say Google?

          And some "big hardware" companies are also "big content" companies. I'd like to hear from Sony how their hardware business is decimating their content business through piracy. Why would they make devices that can pirate their own content? Because those devices have many, many uses - including you need them to access the content. Devices that facilitate piracy are called computers, very useful and versatile tools. Perhaps you'd also be happy with a law that destroys any computer that has pirated content on it? Such laws have been proposed.

          You're trying to discredit us by saying all we want is free everything. What we really want is laws we can respect, a right to privacy and free expression, due process and judicial review, innocence until proven guilty, and blame placed on the actual criminals. You know, old-fashioned American ideals. The land of the free doesn't mean the price.

           

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            bob, Nov 7th, 2011 @ 12:31pm

            Re: Re: Re: Re: Yup, there's no way that Big Hardware and Big Search are out of touch

            And you can have all of these things-- but you've got to respect the content creators and give them a practical mechanism to police piracy.

            For instance, think about how society gives out tickets to people who are caught speeding. A camera takes a picture and the plate is used to identify the car. Do people sit around and suggest that perhaps someone stole the car just as everyone around here seems to believe that a IP address is always used by someone other than the homeowner? If there are extenuating circumstances, a judge is ready to listen.

            The same thing happens with most other crimes. The cops arrest and then the trial comes afterwards.

            Yet around here, shutting down a web site with plenty of evidence is seen as some arbitrary move by a dictatorship. Nope. It's not much different from what happens to every other criminal around. The cops collect evidence and then they shut it down-- just as they collect evidence and arrest someone.

            The line of argument is always the same-- any law that would hamper Big Search's actions is said to be terribly restrictive and what a Fascist would dream of imposing. In fact, any effort to do anything to an infringer is portrayed as evil and overly broad etc.

            The fact is that the evidence indicting the IP address of the users is better than the evidence in cases where the defendant is sent away for life. Murder cases are decided with less certainty. Yet around here everyone assumes that an IP address means nothing.

             

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            •  
              icon
              Franklin G Ryzzo (profile), Nov 7th, 2011 @ 2:54pm

              Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Yup, there's no way that Big Hardware and Big Search are out of touch

              "And you can have all of these things-- but you've got to respect the content creators and give them a practical mechanism to police piracy. "

              They have a practical mechanism to police file-sharing already. It's called the DMCA. It is also poor legislation that hampers individual rights, but it was already passed. When content owners see that their product is being used against their wishes, they can inform the site owner and have it taken down. The content owners are the ones that have a problem with specific use of a work, and they are the ones that should express this displeasure and file a request to have it removed.

              "For instance, think about how society gives out tickets to people who are caught speeding. A camera takes a picture and the plate is used to identify the car. Do people sit around and suggest that perhaps someone stole the car just as everyone around here seems to believe that a IP address is always used by someone other than the homeowner? If there are extenuating circumstances, a judge is ready to listen."

              Careful with this example because it actually goes against your argument. Speed cameras catch a vehicle, not a driver. Much like an IP address does not identify a person. Also, speed cameras are in place for the purpose of revenue generation not as a deterrent. There are no points assigned for this offense because it is impossible to determine who was driving. A small fine is issued to the owner (for state revenue generation), but there is no criminal liability.

              "The same thing happens with most other crimes. The cops arrest and then the trial comes afterwards.

              Yet around here, shutting down a web site with plenty of evidence is seen as some arbitrary move by a dictatorship. Nope. It's not much different from what happens to every other criminal around. The cops collect evidence and then they shut it down-- just as they collect evidence and arrest someone."


              There are safeguards in place for the police to do their job and for the court systems to do theirs. One of these safeguards is called due process. The police cannot arbitrarily just arrest someone without evidence, and that evidence needs to be substantially more than simply at the request of a private citizen or organization. The current legislation is a clear attempt to circumvent due process, and this is one of the major reasons that people have issue with it.

               

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            •  
              identicon
              athe, Nov 7th, 2011 @ 3:05pm

              Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Yup, there's no way that Big Hardware and Big Search are out of touch

              And how many trials have come, so far, after the websites in question have been taken down?
              Yeah, that's what I thought.

               

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          icon
          Onnala (profile), Nov 7th, 2011 @ 8:04am

          Re: Re: Re: Yup, there's no way that Big Hardware and Big Search are out of touch

          You and I both know that's not how this law will be used. That's just what the people pushing the law say it's about. Go and read it. Youtube, google, facebook, myspace, mailing lists, usenet, and email all fit under the 'rouge' site definitions of that law. I can't work out what part of the internet doesn't fall under the law.

           

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            identicon
            Anonymous Coward, Nov 7th, 2011 @ 10:19am

            Re: Re: Re: Re: Yup, there's no way that Big Hardware and Big Search are out of touch

            Youtube, google, facebook, myspace, mailing lists, usenet, and email all fit under the 'rouge' site definitions of that law.

            I think a few will fall under the mascara definition as well. Herp derp.

             

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          •  
            identicon
            bob, Nov 7th, 2011 @ 12:40pm

            Re: Re: Re: Re: Yup, there's no way that Big Hardware and Big Search are out of touch

            I'm sure the law will be used to target sites like ISOHunt, PirateBay and other sites that seem to believe that it's all okay to give away other peoples' hard work without asking.

            Will it be used to target others? Perhaps, but not without bending the law to the point when it might break.

            And I think you're hyperventilating by saying that every part of the Internet will "fall under the law" whatever that means. I don't know where you get this impression. Every blog I visit is filled with original content that was largely created by the owner. I rarely bump into infringing content because I don't frequent these sites. So I can't imagine it making a darn bit of difference in the aboveboard internet where people actually do their own work.

            But I do know that the other sites are out there and I'm amazed that they can be so brash about their offerings. So I'm sure it will be nice to target them initially.

             

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        •  
          identicon
          Anonymous Coward, Nov 7th, 2011 @ 8:10am

          Re: Re: Re: Tried to FTFY, but it's just too broken (gibberish generator on?)

          Dude. It's not censorship to shut down a site that's either promoting political dissent or leading others to think about political dissent. Censorship is when someone stops you from expressing your own views, not when someone stops you from repeating the political propaganda that they don't support, or from simply repeating another person's opinions (as long as it agrees with the current political party). Sheesh.

          These sites have nothing to do with free expression. They have nothing to do with fair use. They wouldn't even qualify for authorship under the Feist decision because they add so little to the world. They're pure leeches.

          And it's easy to make a survey say whatever you want. I'm sure 95% of the people support a totalitarian's right to choose what happens to their subjects. And I'm sure that 95% support the freedom to do what you want with your computer. The surveys prove nothing because they don't help us split the baby.

           

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    •  
      icon
      That Anonymous Coward (profile), Nov 7th, 2011 @ 6:31am

      Re: Yup, there's no way that Big Hardware and Big Search are out of touch

      "Most Americans like to keep control over their creations."
      It is a shame that large corporations demand they be signed over for the creators "best interests" which seem to include making sure that payments are as low as possible to them.

      And I doubt most Americans would enjoy the lengths that Big Media want to make sure that you have to pay everytime you might possibly see/hear/think about something they claim ownership of. That they do not want to have their access to the world limited to remove everything Big Media does not want you to know about.

      Big Media fears a new platform where creators can completely manage their works and but them out of the process. That means more money for the content creators, is that a bad thing?

      Try harder...

      3/10

       

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      •  
        identicon
        Anonymous Coward, Nov 7th, 2011 @ 7:31am

        Re: Re: Yup, there's no way that Big Hardware and Big Search are out of touch

        No one puts a gun to the head of an artist and tells them to sign on with a company. It's their choice.

        Why are you anti-choice?

         

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          jupiterkansas (profile), Nov 7th, 2011 @ 7:42am

          Re: Re: Re: Yup, there's no way that Big Hardware and Big Search are out of touch

          Film and music in America has largely been controlled by members of the RIAA and MPAA. If an artist wanted to make a living, they were pretty much forced to deal with a member company. That's changed a lot with music, but it's still true with film. So nobody's putting a gun to their head, but the MPAA and RIAA is all about making sure there aren't any other options if an artist wants to make a living. That's what being a gatekeeper is all about.

          Try getting a song on the radio without the RIAA, or a movie in the theatres without the MPAA, or a show on television. It used to be impossible. Now thanks to the internet it's slightly easier, which is why they're scrambling to control everything that happens on the internet with regards to their business interests.

          I don't blame them - that's what they're supposed to do. I blame is people in Washington who seem content to do their bidding. I suspect the reason is that they love having mass media in the hands of a few major players, because it's make it easy for them to manipulate public opinion, and they can keep the major players for digging into their activities too deeply.

           

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          That Anonymous Coward (profile), Nov 7th, 2011 @ 8:09am

          Re: Re: Re: Yup, there's no way that Big Hardware and Big Search are out of touch

          Please point out the choices that aren't currently being assaulted because they are rogue sites.

          Please point out where the partners of big content take the time to make sure payments owed goto the right people instead of just the big players.

          We could have more choices for artists, if the big players were to stop stomping their foot and claiming any business model but theirs is based on infringement and stealing their content.

          Choice, like the UK rapper who had his music taken down by a large corporation who wanted to buy the song for their artist but had not gotten the rights actually?

          Choice, like anyone who wants to repeat the Beiber road to success. Perform other peoples music and put it on YouTube to get noticed. Except the labels will swat the files down claiming losses.

          Choice, like doing everything they can to try and kill RedBox and Netflix despite the proven decrease in "piracy" these companies lead to.

          Choice is supposed to be free, not legislated that you can pick one of the nearly identical companies who have monopoly control of the industry.

           

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          The Incoherent One (profile), Nov 7th, 2011 @ 8:19am

          Re: Re: Re: Yup, there's no way that Big Hardware and Big Search are out of touch

          Actually I believe that you are wrong. The Content companies are trying to kill the venues that upcoming artists and creators are using to get themselves known. They are the gate keepers, and they want everyone to think that you have to go through them in order to get anywhere. THATS how they make their money. Sure there is some illegal traffic on PtP networks, but how much is the legitimate free exchange or ideas and information? You shut them down, and you silence them all. Not just the ones who are infringing.

           

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        •  
          identicon
          MrWilson, Nov 7th, 2011 @ 9:38am

          Re: Re: Re: Yup, there's no way that Big Hardware and Big Search are out of touch

          When the big entertainment companies dominate the distribution channels for entertainment (by, for instance, owning television and radio stations in addition to owning production studios, controlling what content is promoted and what content is ignored), it's akin to the Catholic Church prior to the Reformation. They own the way to heaven and you'll pay for your indulgences if you want in or else be excommunicated.

          Your conception of choice is akin to, "worship me in heaven or burn in the hell of artistic obscurity."

          Fortunately, the internet has open sourced the religion of art. Now artists can get a direct line to their audiences without having to go through a priest/middleman. The church of entertainment needs to adapt or give up the holy ghost.

           

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          •  
            identicon
            bob, Nov 7th, 2011 @ 12:47pm

            Re: Re: Re: Re: Yup, there's no way that Big Hardware and Big Search are out of touch

            If only this were true. Musicians have always pressed their own disks and sold their own tapes. It's been going on for decades. Many old record stores used to sell local disks all of the time.

            The fact is that distribution is expensive and so is advertising. I realize it may sound sucky to sign away 85% of the revenues to the people handling distribution, but the royalty structure is something that's evolved over a long time. Hundreds of thousands of musicians have tried to self-publish their own music and they often can't afford to invest in distribution or advertising. It's usually easier to shake a fist at the big corporation than acknowledge that it takes plenty of capital to get out the word about a new band.

             

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          lucidrenegade (profile), Nov 7th, 2011 @ 10:05am

          Re: Re: Re: Yup, there's no way that Big Hardware and Big Search are out of touch

          But, like dude! Dude!

           

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        •  
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          The Groove Tiger (profile), Nov 7th, 2011 @ 11:00am

          Re: Re: Re: Yup, there's no way that Big Hardware and Big Search are out of touch

          Let's see... these are the choices:

          -Sign up with Big Label, get ripped off.

          -Go independent, get a bogus DMCA takedown on your stuff, and/or get Universal to claim they own your songs and royalties, and get every single channel that you could use to promote your stuff outlawed by RIAA.

          Yeah, there would be choices if YOU DIDN'T ATTEMPT TO DESTROY the other choice constantly.

          Oh hey, you don't have to vote for us, you can either vote for us or get shot. Choices!

           

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          •  
            identicon
            bob, Nov 7th, 2011 @ 12:50pm

            Re: Re: Re: Re: Yup, there's no way that Big Hardware and Big Search are out of touch

            Oh come on. I see tons of small independent bands on MySpace and YouTube and they're not being shut down by bogus DMCA notices. It's just not happening with any regularity. So go on being paranoid.

            The fact is that people like to share music with their friends and this creates a winner-take-all market as everyone congregates around whatever the mob chooses. It may tough to be a small band that's ignored by everyone, but it has nothing to do with bogus DMCA notices.

             

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            •  
              icon
              Josh in CharlotteNC (profile), Nov 8th, 2011 @ 12:54am

              Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Yup, there's no way that Big Hardware and Big Search are out of touch

              I see tons of small independent bands on MySpace and YouTube and they're not being shut down by bogus DMCA notices.

              So what happens when Youtube is held liable for everything their users upload? They'll stop letting their users upload anything, unless it's been approved by the major studios.

              But this isn't just about Youtube. It's also about the next competitor to Youtube. What about the 3 guys in a garage building the next big thing? Are they gonna get venture capital once a law passes to make them liable for uploads?

              And seriously, people still use MySpace?

               

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    •  
      icon
      Killercool (profile), Nov 7th, 2011 @ 6:31am

      "Big Search and Big Hardware"

      You keep saying these words...

      I do not think they mean what you think they mean...

      Please explain how these monsters of industry are so powerful if not from a majority of the population purchasing and/or using their services and goods? Especially since they are the ones being targeted by the so-called "victims of piracy," who, as of yet, are the only ones who have successfully swayed Congress to create bills in their favor (when it comes to IP, anyways). They have pretty much only been thrown the bone that is the (unfortunately, most sensible bill since it was drafted) DMCA.

      Which has the oh-so-terrible habit of not blaming the service provider for what it's customers do.

      Awful, I know. Of course retailers and business-folks should be persecuted for what people do with their product.

      Instead of just the folk who are actually doing the unlawful activity.

      Hey, a guy last week rode a cab to the bank he robbed! Let's sue the cab company! They're enablers!

       

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      •  
        identicon
        Anonymous Coward, Nov 7th, 2011 @ 7:51am

        Re:

        I think the point being is that the Internet has destroyed the concept of copyright as it used to exist. Hell, copyright destroyed copyright as it was originally intended, but I digress. The point being that copyright is dead. The entire concept of copyright is now a square peg in a round hole. The Internet has killed it. Rather than accepting the fact that copyright is in now a square peg in a round hole, you are trying to cut the round holes into squares using shaky hands rather than sanding down your square to fit in the round holes.. Whether you believe it or not, copyright is already in its death throes. We have an entire generation up and coming that will tear down copyright as if it's the next Berlin Wall. Passing such draconian legislature will only hasten the uprising. You and your copyright buddies are on the wrong side of history.

         

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      •  
        identicon
        bob, Nov 7th, 2011 @ 12:55pm

        Re: "Big Search and Big Hardware"

        Are you aware that cab drivers keep a log file of their fares just to help the police solve crimes? Pawn shops photograph the people selling things. Drug stores ask for the drivers licenses of people buying pseudofed. The same is true of many businesses that get caught up with sketchy customers.

        There are so many things that Big Search and Big Hardware could do to help the artists. They might insist that people use real accounts traceable to people before uploading. They might ask uploaders to fill out a form instead of insisting that creators jump through annoying DMCA hoops to get something taken down.

        But no. Everything is meant to smooth the way of the pirate and every roadblock is arranged to annoy the person who actually did the work.

         

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    •  
      icon
      The Groove Tiger (profile), Nov 7th, 2011 @ 6:47am

      Re: Yup, there's no way that Big Hardware and Big Search are out of touch

      Ohhh Mr. Hardware, your hardware is soooo big!

       

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    •  
      icon
      Atkray (profile), Nov 7th, 2011 @ 7:19am

      Re: Yup, there's no way that Big Hardware and Big Search are out of touch

      "But I submit that most Americans would rather have a strong copyright rule than unfettered access to all of the free content that Big Search and Big Hardware can serve up. Why? Because most Americans aren't lazy couch potatoes. They have jobs and they know that the creators are working hard. Just as they want to be paid, they know that the creators need to pay for health insurance, a roof and some food too. "

      bob,

      I disagree with you, I think most Americans are happy to drop some change or maybe even a bill into an artist's hat or guitar case...until the economy tanks or they have to pay for their children to have braces. Then they walk by an think to themselves, "why doesn't this guy get a job?"

      Your mistake is believing that because your art is the most valuable thing in the world to you, others MUST place equal value on it. We do not.

       

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      •  
        identicon
        bob, Nov 7th, 2011 @ 12:57pm

        Re: Re: Yup, there's no way that Big Hardware and Big Search are out of touch

        Hey, if it's not so valuable, don't steal it. Just leave it alone until it ends up in the cut-out bins.

         

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        •  
          icon
          Atkray (profile), Nov 7th, 2011 @ 1:26pm

          Re: Re: Re: Yup, there's no way that Big Hardware and Big Search are out of touch

          I didn't realize that listening to you as I walked by was stealing.

          Perhaps if you don't want to share you should not leave the house.

           

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    •  
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      Butcherer79 (profile), Nov 7th, 2011 @ 7:32am

      Re: Yup, there's no way that Big Hardware and Big Search are out of touch

       

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    •  
      icon
      Trails (profile), Nov 7th, 2011 @ 7:39am

      Re: Yup, there's no way that Big Hardware and Big Search are out of touch

      Wow, just wow. I was gonna debate this, but at the end you referred to DRM as "innovation". Troll?

       

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  •  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Nov 7th, 2011 @ 6:19am

    Hey FUDboy, can I get a citation on Yahoo's "disgust" over the CoC's "extremist" position on PROTECT IP as the motivator for not renewing its membership? I won't hold my breath, because we all know that this is more conjuring and FUD mongering by the world's leading piracy apologist.

     

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    •  
      icon
      btrussell (profile), Nov 7th, 2011 @ 6:34am

      Re:

      I am not doing the work for you, searching the internet is too hard for me, but I did see the story on Yahoo, probably last week or the week before.

       

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    •  
      identicon
      abc gum, Nov 7th, 2011 @ 6:37am

      Re:

      What, exactly, in this post is Fear, Uncertainty or Doubt ?

       

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    •  
      icon
      Dark Helmet (profile), Nov 7th, 2011 @ 7:13am

      Re:

      "http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/10/13/1025991/-Yahoo!-leaves-US-Chamber"

      Here you go, sparky....

       

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      •  
        identicon
        Anonymous Coward, Nov 7th, 2011 @ 7:49am

        Re: Re:

        "http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/10/13/1025991/-Yahoo!-leaves-US-Chamber"

        Here you go, sparky....

        Thanks for making my point numb nuts. Here is the sum total of Yahoo's comments on leaving the US CoC:

        For Yahoo’s part, a spokeswoman would only say to MT that the company “has memberships with numerous trade associations and belongs to a number of organizations that promote a free and fair marketplace which enable Yahoo! to innovate on behalf of our more than 700 million users. As our membership renewal time neared and we reviewed our membership, we decided not to renew."

        Maybe you can explain how this supports Masnick's FUD-based assertions like:

        Yahoo recently refused to renew its membership out of disgust over the Chamber's position on PROTECT IP/SOPA. or this October 13 headline: Yahoo Dumps US Chamber Of Commerce Over Its Extremist Position On PROTECT IP

         

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        •  
          icon
          Dark Helmet (profile), Nov 7th, 2011 @ 8:02am

          Re: Re: Re:

          Numb nuts. I like that one.

          But did you bother reading at the rest of the link? Everyone is pointing to odds over the legislation as the key reason Yahoo is leaving. Are you actually expecting a comment saying so to get through Yahoo's PR machine? Is that all that would satisfy you? A direct quote from Yahoo saying this is exactly why they're leaving?

          I mean, just let me know if that's the case, because we can stop discussing this now. Such a requirement would NEVER be satisfied, true or not....

           

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          •  
            identicon
            Anonymous Coward, Nov 7th, 2011 @ 10:16am

            Re: Re: Re: Re:

            Numb nuts. I like that one.

            You're welcome. I try to be charitable.

            But did you bother reading at the rest of the link? Everyone is pointing to odds over the legislation as the key reason Yahoo is leaving. Are you actually expecting a comment saying so to get through Yahoo's PR machine? Is that all that would satisfy you? A direct quote from Yahoo saying this is exactly why they're leaving?

            I'm just saying "who knows"? Maybe Yahoo asked the Chamber to seek certain language or modifications to the bill which were spurned. There's a lot of stakeholders currently (credit cards and ISP's mostly) stating that they will object unless other stakeholders are also held to a higher level of accountability. Perhaps Yahoo wouldn't have left if the payment processor role was enhanced. Nobody knows for sure, certainly not Masnick. But that doesn't stop him from making broad, sweeping pronouncements that are utterly unsupported by fact.

            I mean, just let me know if that's the case, because we can stop discussing this now. Such a requirement would NEVER be satisfied, true or not....

            The FACT is that Yahoo did make a statement. The FACT is that statement said nothing about "disgust" or the "extremist" position of the CoC. Hell, Yahoo never even referenced the bill. Yet Masnick's propaganda machine twists the Yahoo statement into something totally unrecognizable from what was actually said.

             

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        •  
          icon
          Chuck Norris' Enemy (deceased) (profile), Nov 7th, 2011 @ 8:12am

          Re: Re: Re:

          Oh, it is in there. If you could detect subtlety then you would catch it.

          First sentence: belongs to a number of organizations that promote a free and fair marketplace [emphasis added]

          Second sentence: we reviewed our membership, we decided not to renew.

          Ergo, the services of the US CoC do not promote a free and fair marketplace so we dumped 'em!

           

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          •  
            identicon
            Anonymous Coward, Nov 7th, 2011 @ 9:50am

            Re: Re: Re: Re:

            Oh, it is in there. If you could detect subtlety then you would catch it.

            First sentence: belongs to a number of organizations that promote a free and fair marketplace [emphasis added]

            Second sentence: we reviewed our membership, we decided not to renew.

            Ergo, the services of the US CoC do not promote a free and fair marketplace so we dumped 'em!


            Even if accurate, where does "disgust" and "extremist" come into play? People enter and leave voluntary associations all the time depending on the alignment of their views and the views of the organization.

             

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    •  
      identicon
      Anonymous Coward, Nov 7th, 2011 @ 7:24am

      Re:

      don't worry psycho, I'm sure one of these days the police are going to have a few words with you after you slip up on the crime scene and leave evidence behind your latest stalking victim.

       

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    •  
      icon
      Trails (profile), Nov 7th, 2011 @ 7:45am

      Re:

      You think Mike is the world's leading piracy apologist? Your admiration of mike is stunning, but really this is a blog about IP and tech. If you want to shower adulation on Mike, maybe an email is more appropriate?

       

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  •  
    identicon
    droslovinia, Nov 7th, 2011 @ 8:58am

    Well, duh!

    Isn't this the same US Chamber of Commerce that put up such a fight when Congress was debating a bill that would prevent the US from doing business with companies that shield rapists?

    And yet, it takes Google's loss of participation to make you think they've "lost touch?"

     

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    •  
      identicon
      abc gum, Nov 7th, 2011 @ 9:06am

      Re: Well, duh!

      That bill showed many congress critters are in favor of rape. And here I thought they were sworn to uphold the law ... this must be that two tiered law thing again

       

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  •  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Nov 7th, 2011 @ 9:05am

    CEA again Mike? Just random that this happened? Or perhaps are you just point out that they have the same mentality as Google?

     

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  •  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Nov 7th, 2011 @ 10:16am

    The US COC only works for like 20 of the biggest fortune 500 companies, all of which strongly oppose any kind of government regulation no matter the public good it would cause.

     

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    •  
      icon
      That Anonymous Coward (profile), Nov 8th, 2011 @ 6:20pm

      Re:

      The US COC only works for like 20 of the biggest fortune 500 companies, all of which strongly oppose any kind of government regulation on themselves no matter the public good it would cause.

      FTFY

       

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  •  
    icon
    That Anonymous Coward (profile), Nov 7th, 2011 @ 11:18pm

    Would it be wrong to wish, in this instance, for a CoC Block?

     

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  •  
    identicon
    tomer, Nov 13th, 2011 @ 1:28am

    really nice

    really nice post thanks!

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]


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