Hackers Claim They Can Unban Banned PS3s While Banning Unmodded PS3s
from the don't-mess-with-the-hackers dept
We recently noted that Sony had announced plans to ban any jailbroken PS3 from the PlayStation Network, because Sony apparently wants to punish people who want to put back features that Sony advertised and then removed. It appears that move may end up backfiring as well. Jay was the first of a few of you to point to a report that some hackers claim they’ve figured out how to unban banned PS3s and at the same time to issue bans on unmodded PS3s. There are some questions as to how accurate the report is, but if true, it would suggest another failed strategy by Sony. Will it ever realize that trying to clamp down on its own users is a bad idea?
Comments on “Hackers Claim They Can Unban Banned PS3s While Banning Unmodded PS3s”
I don't know much about it
But if I had to guess, I would say that when someone does this they are trading places with a non-banned PS3. While one could trade their non-working, non-modded PS3 for a working, modded one, the more likely outcome is using some unknowing smuck’s ID.
Ether way, it sounds like Sony has one hell of a security hole in their authentication servers that needs to be closed.
I cannot fault Sony for banning modded PS3s from PSN. They do have an obligation to their users and their developers. Banning is an understandable and reasonable answer to a perceived threat. Lawsuits are not (Just to make that clear).
Re: I don't know much about it
I can appreciate the banning of modded ~PS3s from the PSN, even if I don’t agree with it, as well.
What I don’t appreciate is how the blame is pushed onto those who were genuinely curious about solving this issue, along with the remote removal of software that was legitimately purchased (OtherOS is a good example, and NO, “But…but…PIRACY!!!” is a shit excuse for removing functionality..
Re: Re: I don't know much about it
“But…but…PIRACY!!!” is a shit excuse for removing functionality
it isn’t “but.. but… PIRACY”, it is “but.. but… cheaters online” that really drives the issue, which is why they are banning modded consoles from their online game play. It is pretty logical and very needed, otherwise the entire PS3 online experience could be ruined (and a very good business model destroyed in the process).
The hackers here shouldn’t be celebrated. This is clearly malicious and nasty. Once again, Techdirt ends up support law breaking. Congrats Mike! You are scoring well today.
Re: Re: Re: I don't know much about it
They removed the OtherOS feature because of cheaters online?
Re: Re: Re:2 I don't know much about it
supposedly, which was stupid. the PSN ban is the Correct way of dealing with that issue.
Re: Re: Re: I don't know much about it
it isn’t “but.. but… PIRACY”, it is “but.. but… cheaters online” that really drives the issue, which is why they are banning modded consoles from their online game play. It is pretty logical and very needed, otherwise the entire PS3 online experience could be ruined
Are you sure about this? Do you have links to such statements from Sony? Or are you just trolling again?
As well, I think that if you went through GeoHot’s research, you’d see that he didn’t do it so that he could improve his aimbot…
Re: Re: Re: I don't know much about it
You’re missing what both of us said. We agree with banning modders (Piracy, cheating, what have you). We do not agree with lawsuits or removing local functionality. Why do they have to remove the Other OS option and ban a console?
While I do not agree with how Mike presented the article, he is essentially right. With all that Sony’s done to piss off the people who willingly pay, it’s inevitable that Sony’s latest tactic will be the target.
If Sony had just banned the systems initially and ended it there, this would have never come about. These people would be complaining about being banned, but they would have been shrugged off. It’s what you get for modding your PS3. But because Sony made this a “David vs. Goliath” thing, they are seen as the underdogs, not just simple hackers.
I don’t condone what these people are doing, I’d be willing to bet that Mike doesn’t ether, but don’t let Sony off the hook. They started the war, now they have to fight it.
Re: Re: Re:2 I don't know much about it
“removing functionality” falls in line with Sony protecting it’s investments. There must be a deterrent right? Otherwise whats to stop people from bootlegging games and cheating to the extent that Sony loses most of their business? Its business, not personal. Sony will win the “war”. They have more money and assets than all the cheap bootleggers and obnoxious cheaters will ever have. Cheat or play bootleg games and you’re cut off. Fair enough punishment if you ask me. Why dont we whine about it! Just buy your games and deal with OtherOS being removed, or dont use/buy Sony products. Period. Whats so hard to understand about this scenario? There is NO JUSTIFICATION for circumventing protection or security measures.
Re: Re: Re:3 I don't know much about it
Authoritarian much?
Re: Re: Re:4 I don't know much about it
occasionally. I think it’s the malt liquor. But my point usually is valid. Until maybe the third or fourth one. Then it’s more like slurring, or speaking in tongues. Wait, what were we talking about?
Re: Re: Re:3 I don't know much about it
It’s not an investment if it’s a money-sink. As Chronno pointed out above, they could have just panned the PS3 from the PSN, like MS did with the 360. Or like Steam’s VAC system. Instead, they essentially committed a fraudulent act in removing functionality advertised on the box.
Re: Re: Re:4 I don't know much about it
Then simply revert to an older version of the OS without updating. Thereby keeping your OtherOS feature. Whats wrong with that? Or, even better, how about using a PC for Linux? I mean, why even attempt linux on the ps3 to begin with? Its not nearly as functional as a desktop by comparison. You cannot commit fraud by following the “could be subject to change” line in the DMCA agreement. Perhaps someone should read the user agreement in detail.
Re: Re: Re:5 I don't know much about it
Because you couldn’t go back once you upgraded the firmware. I appreciated that it could have changed, but the fact that they removed something I used, so I sold it on.
Also, I didn’t GET a DMCA agreement. And you missed the point completely. Again. IT’s not about what was done. It’s about the attitude projected. And Sony is acting like a petulant two-year-old on crack.
Re: Re: Re:5 I don't know much about it
Riddle me this: I was advertised access to the PSN AND to the OtherOS feature
Thats AND, not OR
Re: Re: Re:6 I don't know much about it
Riddle me this: I was advertised access to the PSN AND to the OtherOS feature
and you’ll get neither and like it. you get nothing. good day sir.
Re: Re: Re:3 I don't know much about it
> There is NO JUSTIFICATION for circumventing
> protection or security measures.
Sure there is, if those security measures are preventing me from doing something I’m legally entitled to do with something I’ve legally purchased.
Re: Re: Re: I don't know much about it
The hackers here shouldn’t be celebrated. This is clearly malicious and nasty. Once again, Techdirt ends up support law breaking. Congrats Mike! You are scoring well today.
While I believe in keeping modded consoles offline with respect to fairness, I completely disagree with your “hackers here shouldn’t be celebrated” line and have felt that way ever since taking apart my first transistor radio apart at age 7 to see what makes it work and to discover what “new” thing I could make with the parts.
Re: Re: Re:2 I don't know much about it
Thats not a hacker, thats a “tinkerer”
Re: Re: Re: I don't know much about it
it isn’t “but.. but… PIRACY”, it is “but.. but… cheaters online” that really drives the issue,
Yes – but the hack has legitimate uses beyond either.
The problem is that Sony was too lazy to set up their security properly.
The system is flawed and they shouldn’t be taking it out on those who want the other OS functionality.
Re: Re: Re: I don't know much about it
“but.. but… cheaters online”
Why are cheaters such a big problem? Have you ever had any game being utterly ruined by cheaters?
I used to play Call of Duty 4 online a lot, and sure as clockwork, in about every “session” a cheater would pop up. Some had your typical aimbot, while others were invulnerable. It was a bummer.
So what are you going to do? If the admins are around, they can kick him, no problem. But if they aren’t, you have no choice but to leave to another server. And since there were literally thousands of servers to chooses from, and since I was in it just for the heck of it (I play for !FUN!), I could just switch to a different server. Heck, if it wasn’t for cheaters, I would have never found a really cool server I once found.
Or, if they are not invulnerable, you can go cheater fishing. Band together with friends and ONLY target the cheater. Great fun! They get really pissed off!
But I don’t see cheaters as a major issue. They can be easily dealt with, same way as trolls. The worst kind of player is not the cheater, but those that ruin everyone’s game by camping near vehicles and taking them for a joy ride (not in CoD), or people that ignore flags in capture the flag and go camping with a sniper rifle, for example.
Bad team players ruin your game faster than cheaters, and there’s zilch you can do about it. Oh sure, you can start a vote to kick him out, but what are the chances of the other team voting him out? You can’t complain or you’ll look like a baby or a sore loser.
So, the “but cheaters” scream does not convince me. Get some REAL friends and kick cheater butt. Or start your own server.
Re: Re: Re:2 I don't know much about it
Why are cheaters such a big problem? Have you ever had any game being utterly ruined by cheaters?
I don’t play online games anymore for exactly this reason. People mod the software, give themselves unfair advantages, and ruin the experience. Why pay $X per month for an online gaming experience when a significant number of the players are cheating?
Or, if they are not invulnerable, you can go cheater fishing. Band together with friends and ONLY target the cheater. Great fun! They get really pissed off!
If I wanted to play THAT game, I wouldn’t mind. But I signed up to play the game as presented, not to play “tag the cheater”. With more and more people trying to cheat (and with widely spread cheats) most games collapse under their own weight.
Re: Re: Re:3 I don't know much about it
But a game is so much more fun when the users take it above and beyond what the developers had intended, so much so that the developers finally intended on it. So playing “Smear the Cheater” (or loud mouth bastard in my case) is just taking the game to the maximum of what the developers intended.
Or you can do what I do and start a private game with only people I know. I’m not much for socializing with people I don’t know.
Re: Re: Re:4 I don't know much about it
Only fun for the cheaters bro, not the disadvantaged.
Re: Re: Re:3 Not buying it...
If you want to enjoy a game, you can without having to worry about cheating. I play on the PC, I’ve run across people that hack in all sorts of games. From MMOs to first person shooter… I’ve enjoyed playing with certain people and some servers I don’t play on because the people are asshats.
But saying the world is going to hell in a handbasket because you found ONE cheater out of all of the people that enjoy a game means you aren’t trying hard enough to have fun.
Quit having fun, guy!
Re: Re: Re:3 I don't know much about it
“But I signed up to play the game as presented”
And people bought the PS3 with the other OS functionality, they are were trying to use it as advertised. So who wins there?
Personally, you guys take all the fun out of online games. Your constant accusations of cheaters drives the developers/studios to overreacting. For what, so you can have everyone see your achievements, and worship your uber-ness? What does that get you? I pay for the gaming experience, if I enjoy the game I’ll continue. Eventually the griefers, cheaters, hackers and the like get out of hand. But by that time the game is passe and a new one has my attention.
Re: Re: Re:4 I don't know much about it
And people bought the PS3 with the other OS functionality, they are were trying to use it as advertised. So who wins there?
I’m sorry, but I can’t agree here. Very few people are interested in the “other OS” functionality only to run another OS, they rather look at it as an easy way to back door the machine, to copy software, and to mod their consoles to work differently from standard, especially online.
I cannot think of anyone I know who has a PS3 and has used the OS feature only to run an OS. They all hack like crazy, using that as the back door (it’s sort of a nice bootloader, if you like).
Personally, you guys take all the fun out of online games. Your constant accusations of cheaters drives the developers/studios to overreacting. For what, so you can have everyone see your achievements, and worship your uber-ness?
I don’t care about any uber-ness. I play games to relax and enjoy myself. In a room full of cheaters, it is very hard to enjoy myself. That lowers the value of the online portion of the PS3’s appeal, and in turn makes me less likely to be a customer and makes Sony lose my business, through no fault of their own.
All the stuff in this thread is all whining from the people who want to be able to pirate games, mod them, and have artificial “uber-ness”. It’s sad.
Re: Re: Re:5 I don't know much about it
Ubberness?
F. YOU!
I don’t buy hardware to have it downgraded or blocked or tampered with in any way, that goes against my rights to own something.
Re: Re: Re:5 I don't know much about it
I’m sorry, but I can’t agree here. Very few people are interested in the “other OS” functionality only to run another OS, they rather look at it as an easy way to back door the machine, to copy software, and to mod their consoles to work differently from standard, especially online.
I specifically bought the PS3 over the 360 when it came out because it gave me the capability to run MythTV on it and use it as an awesome DVR and as a powerful gaming console. I didn’t buy it for one or the other, I bought it for bot, and when they took away OtherOS I was faced with a choice: which do I want to do more? My answer? Any company that tries that has committed fraud against my and I will no longer do business with them.
They took a reliable customer, one who buys roughly one game a month and has for the better part of two decades, and turned him against them. Way to go guys.
And yet here you are saying people like me don’t exist, and that if we do we’re lying cheaters behind closed doors. You, my friend, are the reason we can’t have nice things.
Re: Re: Re:3 I don't know much about it
What game? Otherwise I’d think you’re lying.
Re: Re: Re:2 I don't know much about it
back when I played a lot of Battlefield 1942, I don’t remember noticing any cheaters. But I do remember getting falsely accused of cheating on a regular basis.
Re: Re: Re:2 I don't know much about it
Actually, cheaters in WoW do make things difficult…it ruins whole server economies, creates faction imbalance, and really messes with progression….
But I digress….
It still boils down to Sony not working with their fan base. I have yet to see any mattress company sue anyone for what is clearly not the intended use of their mattresses….
http://www.subwaybedrace.org/
Re: Re: Re: I don't know much about it
Conversations with an AC …
Me: Good morning
AC: It’s not morning in Japan you communist-fascist-Nazi!
Me: I saw someone broke into your car last night, do you need help or a ride to work?
AC: You bastard! You broke into my car! I’m having you arrested
Me: The suicide bomber killed 10 people
AC: You support terrorism
Re: Re: Re:2 I don't know much about it
This is clearly an ad hominem attack, you unlearned bastard!
Re: Re: Re: I don't know much about it
You’ve put a lot of different people into one category which is why I have a very hard time believing your opinion is truly without bias.
Linux users – After having taken off the OtherOS, these are the people that come back to reimplement that feature.
Homebrewers – Love to play their own games without having to buy expensive developer kits.
Region coding – destroys a market by making the world into sections. Sony would still get the money, but it would be in a different region that collects that revenue.
—————————
So with all of that said, Sony is the one that has to change. They have to find a way to convince we, the people, to support their products.
They have to secure their PS3s and find a way to allow people to have a good machine without going overboard and suing their customers. Sony hasn’t learned from their past, so they are doomed to repeat it. That isn’t our fault.
Nor is it the fault of Techdirt to show the downturns of Sony’s “head in the sand” strategy.
Re: Re: Re: I don't know much about it
Wow, cheating in video games in illegal now? Does a few minutes of aimbotting earn you the death penalty?
Re: Re: Re:2 I don't know much about it
No but it should earn you a console ban from PSN (or Live).
Re: Re: Re:3 I don't know much about it
don’t think anyone’s arguing against That.
Re: Re: Re: I don't know much about it
they shouldnt be banning the moding but fixing the games so cheating can’t be allowed in the first time.
Re: Re: Re: I don't know much about it
And once again, your keyboard must be shit-stained, what with you typing out of your ass…
Re: Re: Re: I don't know much about it
BZFlag is an Free software game, yet it handles cheating without excessive DRM and restrictions. So I’m sorry, the cheating excuse doesn’t work either.
Re: Re: Re: I don't know much about it
cheaters online, properly solved by PSN bans, either of the actual cheaters or just of modden conslose in general: smart.
stripping features? not smart.
having a set up that can actually be hacked in this way? not smart at ALL.
those hacking the network should not be celebrated, true. one could even legitimately make a case for taking action against them. on the other hand, feature stripping.
in the case of this particular article there is no right side, and the article itself doesn’t take one.
i suggest finding a nice bridge to hide under.
Re: Re: Re: I don't know much about it
> Once again, Techdirt ends up support law breaking.
I’ve re-read the article three times now and I still can’t locate the part where Mike says he supports this course of action.
Can you please cite it for me, preferably as a direct quote?
Re: I don't know much about it
it isnt necessarily switching in the terms ur using, “some unknowing smut” could be an unused id, and would be banned instantly(i.e. not worth the effort to switch) probably unless the found a way around, which it sounds like they did which would be valid till the next update; not trading, copying id`s
using a (currently) untraceable mod for unbanning and a traceable mod to ban(hopefully sony didnt ever plan to ban automatically and has huge issues w/ it)
Will Sony ever realize that they really shouldn’t piss off Linux users?
I mean, really now. Sony will never win this.
Killed the secondary market
The hackers may have just killed off the secondary market. The hack works by tricking someone into giving you their ID. Another method to get the id would be to buy a used PS3 and take the ID. Then sell the used PS3. The hacker would wait a month or two to make sure the seller had verified that the system is working correctly and then use the ID from the sold unit. In the long term who would be willing to buy a used PS3? You could not trust any PS3 that had been out of your hands since it was first removed from the original box.
Game makers want to stop resale of games, but resale of game consoles is a boon for them. A resold console means that the new owner may buy games. Even if the new owner only buys one or two new games it is still better for the company than having the old unit sit in a closet or landfill. The console itself was probably sold at a loss, so anything that extends its life is a win for the company.
Further, the sale of old consoles helps sell new consoles. Gamers routinely sell old consoles on Ebay when new models come out. I doubt that they would be so eager to buy the new consoles if they knew that there was no market for the old ones.
Sony’s action was bound to have a lot of unintended consequences. Killing the PS3 console resale market may be one of them.
Re: Killed the secondary market
The hack works by tricking someone into giving you their ID.
So this is really “social engineering” labeled as “hacking” to give it a more negative spin.
Re: Re: Killed the secondary market
That’s pretty much what most “hacking” actually is. I can’t tell you how many Support emails I’ve received from people saying “OMG so-and-so hacked!” when all so-and-so did was fool the person into handing over their password like a damn idiot.
By calling it hacking, people get to pretend it wasn’t their own stupid fault for being fooled.
Re: Re: Killed the secondary market
ya know, there are places where ‘social engineering’ has enough negative spin all by itself.
(actually, in NZ politics it’ll probably get you further than ‘hacking’)
Re: Killed the secondary market
Good idea, thnx.
Re: Re: Killed the secondary market
Oh I see you came looking for information, tips and ideas to get by as well.
Just proves how flawed their “authentication” system is. Another epic failure by Sony. Soon they’ll have their logo next to “Fail” in the dictionary.
You know, I keep seeing all these responses that Sony nuked the Other OS to prevent cheating online. Can any one of you offer any insight HOW the linux OS allows online cheating?
You can’t. Because its a bullshit excuse.
Yes, the NEW hack can cause all this and worse. That’s what happens when you lock the front door. Now we’ve gone in through the back, and discovered all the secrets.
Seriously, how would you cheat in online multiplayer games online, using the linux install? Run PS3 games on an emulator, running on YDL? Right, cause that wouldn’t have issues at all…
I mean, what kind of system doesn’t use server-side validation and relies solely on client side data? If the game designers left these kinds of issues in their code, let them fix it, that’s why we have the ability to update the system and games.
Stop attacking your customers, Sony.
Re: Re:
There does seem to be some misunderstanding about why the Other OS was removed.
I may be wrong as well, but from what I understand it was removed not for cheating, but for piracy. Some hacker said he had found a way to use the Other OS option to allow the use of copied games, but he wasn’t going to release the code since he found no other use for it yet. Hearing that, Sony freaked out and completely removed the Other OS option. They shrugged it of claiming it was for security reasons (possibly the origin of the cheating thing).
This, on top of the removal of the PS2 compatibility and other actions that Sony has taken in the name of anti-piracy, started a cat and mouse game that continues here.
Re: Re: Re:
Don’t forget that Other OS took away regionalization as well. So Sony was fighting two fronts.
Re: Re: Re:
PS2 compatibility is totally different, my friend.
The PS3 emulated PS2 (and PS1) like the PS2 did: The PS2 had a PS1 chipset inside of it to provide physical emulation, instead of a software emulation. Since the PS3 was selling at a big loss, they cut PS2 (and PS1) emulation out because it saved them the money from shoving a PS2 and PS1 into it. That didn’t have anything to do with piracy
Re: Re: Re: Re:
But it was all done on one chip the same size as the Cell processor in the 1000series PS3. They were making the largest losses on the BD reader and the Cell architecture.
Re: Re: Re: Re:
actually, PS1 emulation is still present… kind of.
i stick my old ps1 FF7 discs in there, it runs the game quite happily… with added bonus anti-piracy warnings (that you don’t see on the PS1)
i stick FF8 in there and it just shows the playstation logo from back in the PS1 days then fails, though.
no idea what’s up with that, really.
i think Railroad tycoon 2 might work, but i don’t really remember, it’s been a while since i tried that.
apparently it has something to do with the PS2 using an incompatible GPU or some such (so it needed extra hardware to do that) while the PS1 just used it’s CPU for everything (which the PS3 is entirely capable of emulating). the early model ps3s had the extra hardware in them to run ps2 stuff.
or at least, such is how it was explained to me.
Re: Re:
My understanding was the SONY nuked the other OS because it enambled people to jailbreak ther PS3 via software / hardware provided by a thumbdrive that allowed people to rip games onto the hardrive of there PS3.
Now that being said sony is not attacking anyone who is not using there Online service since that is the bases for there case.
STOP RIPPING OFF COMPANYS AND CREAT YOUR OWN STUFF CUSTOMERS. IS THAT TO HARD FOR YOU TO UNDERSTAND?
Re: Re: Re:
tell ya what: customers will stop ripping off companies when the companies start trading in an honest, fair way that does not involve gouging, fixing, monopolies, fraud, extreme over reaction, and miscellaneous arse-fuckery with property laws and freedom of speech.
Re: Re: Re:
Your understanding is plain wrong. Other OS was removed a full year or more BEFORE the jailbreaking started. Actually, the jailbreaking was a response to the removal of Other OS in order for users to regain that functionality. It had nothing to do with cheating or piracy.
Re: Re:
Sony “nuked” the OtherOS because people were attepmting to gain the ability to cheat and to play bootleg games (you know this). Intentionally attempting to circumvent DMCA protection measures is a crime, and has no legitimate purposes, PERIOD (you know this as well). Sony is well within it’s rights in protecting it’s investments. Stop attempting to justify allowing cheaters, thieves and cheap azz bootleggers. STOP ATTEMPTING TO JUSTIFY DOUCHERY. LEAVE THE CONSOLE AND THE CANNOLI, GO OUTSIDE.
Re: Re: Re:
*applause*
That was an amazing impersonation of Angry Dude. But you forgot to hit return after every sentence.
Re: Re: Re:
I have a question. If the DMCA went away tomorrow would you stop ranting like this?
Re: Re: Re: Re:
NO. Plenty of things to get riled up about.
Re: Re: Re:
Really?
So when your car stop functioning and you need to upgrade your OBD-II that will be ok right?
They have no right to reverse or try to reverse or punish people for doing something with what they legally bought a) it is not their business b) is weasel tactic to keep market share.
Sony has no right to try and stop people from moding anything, thank God I didn’t build a render farm using PS3s, you know that is why Cell will die and nobody will program for it ever.
So the U.S. army is a bunch of douches? hundreds of higher education institutions are douches?
F. YOU!
Re: Re: Re: Re:
Isn’t Cell an IBM product and appears in a bunch of their midrange and mainframe kit? iSeries or whatever it’s called this month for example – Far as I know that’s still going OK. That being said it is IBM so you could be right and it’ll die the death of a thousand paper cuts there too.
Re: Re: Re:2 Re:
Cell is a joint venture between Sony and IBM, both are owners of Cell.
Re: Re: Re:2 Re:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cell_(microprocessor)
Forgot Toshiba.
Re: Re: Re:
Well that’s a tautology to be sure – linguistically if something is a crime it must by definition be illegitimate. Also wrong in at least one circumstance (leaving aside the whole criminal versus civil thing), at least in england where we have the equivalent legislation. DVDs are encrypted and have to be de-crypted before being copyable, which is “DMCA illegal”. On the other hand I have a pre-existing right under previous law to have a backup copy of any media I own. SO technically if I buy a DVD and have someone else back it up for me they have committed an ingringing act (breaking the encryption) for legitimate purpose (my legitimate backup copy).
I don't know much about it
if you think its all about cheaters you should bet all your points against the kid with turbos and no x axis on Tiger Woods. Moreover, you are playing on a system that would allow an analog stick with 10-bit precision to compete against one with 8-bit precision. Let me know when you get that even playing field in Pubs.
I suppose the reason Counter-Strike did so poorly was because of all the hackers? /s
Hackers/Glitchers = not an issue
Dedicated Servers = the issue
Add value
Lets add value. Let anyone that does not meet standards participate in a free-for-all zone.
STOP this Crap people
Ok I am actually one the those people that had this OtherOS
removed. I did this with complete knowledge that I would rather have access to the PSN then keep the Other OS.
1. If you did not want the other OS option removed you should not have updated your system.
2. None of the newer PS3 ever came with this option so half the people complaining have some kind of mental damage that keep them from understanding what they bought.
3. If you want to pirate games and you are an American then turn yourself into the police. real Americans don’t steal from anyone they will design there own software and use it on there own servers and offer there own Online service and not rip off a service provided by other company.
4. If you do not get any of the above. Turn yourself over to the police because your to stupid to handle livening in a normal society
Re: STOP this Crap people
“real Americans don’t steal from anyone . . .”
Now, THAT’s funny.
Re: Re: STOP this Crap people
Cynic (profile), Mar 7th, 2011 @ 11:05am
“real Americans don’t steal from anyone . . .”
“Now, THAT’s funny.”
Hey it’s what I believe and it is an honerable thing to stand by. Me being an american It what I think all americans should strive for . I can not speak for any other culutures…
Re: Re: Re: STOP this Crap people
I’m an American as well. I agree that stealing is wrong. I’m fuzzier on the whole copyright infringement issue, but that’s beside the point. But to call people ‘stupid’ using horrible spelling and grammar is downright hilarious (livening is not what I do in America).
Look, Sony advertised that the OtherOS feature was included. Then they took away that feature. They should give anyone who was using it (whether it was for a game or to learn how to program on a cell processor) the opportunity to turn it in for a full refund. Just ’cause we’re ‘Mercuns don’t mean we ain’t gots no laws about them thar fals advercatin’ all over folks. If’n yoo dun understood that, yu shuld turn yerself intoda police fer bein’ two stuped to liven wit’ tha rest of us decent folk.
Re: Re: Re:2 STOP this Crap people
*Points to sign*
‘Don’t feed the trolls’
Re: Re: Re:3 STOP this Crap people
Sshhhh….don’t tell him I’m trolling!
Re: Re: Re: STOP this Crap people
Yeah, there’s a Texas sized difference betweeen “don’t” and “shouldn’t”.
Not to mention that “not stealing” is one of the ten commandments, conceptualized a few kilo-years ago. How old is your country again?
BUT please do go on, I’m just pointing out why ppl mind have found your post funny..
Re: STOP this Crap people
If only there were a TD’s dumbest post of the week, I’m sure this would win.
A) Choosing between playing new(ish) games and keeping your OtherOS feature is not a choice, the console was advertised as being able to do both.
B) Americans steal…because everybody steals. We’ve diluted the word so much that me taking a photograph of a wedding is now stealing (according to the photographer). Nor is everybody in a good country a paragon of virtue.
C) If you’re stupid enough to write the drivel you’ve posted, turn yourself into a Darwinian Reeducation Center, your genes have been deemed unfit for the next generation.
Re: STOP this Crap people
“Ok I am actually one the those people that had this OtherOS
removed.”
And from the sounds of it, didn’t use it.
“1. If you did not want the other OS option removed you should not have updated your system.”
And remove PSN.
“2. None of the newer PS3 ever came with this option so half the people complaining have some kind of mental damage that keep them from understanding what they bought.”
The Other OS option was just software. It can be added back with a download. It’s stupid to remove and deny functionality just because you’re afraid of something that’s not actually a problem.
“3. If you want to pirate games and you are an American then turn yourself into the police. real Americans don’t steal from anyone they will design there own software and use it on there own servers and offer there own Online service and not rip off a service provided by other company.”
Read a history book, and, for the record, it’s un-American to claim someone is guilty until proven innocent.
“4. If you do not get any of the above. Turn yourself over to the police because your to stupid to handle livening in a normal society”
Oh, we “get it”. We get that you are wrong.
Re: STOP this Crap people
real Americans don’t steal from anyone they will design there own software and use it on there own servers and offer there own Online service and not rip off a service provided by other company.
As an American, I am offended that you would devalue the long-standing entrepreneurial tradition in this country of ripping off other peoples’ ideas for profit. It goes as far back as Edison taking credit for the light bulb, up through windshield wipers and Windows 3.1, and all the way to Mark Zuckerburg taking credit for the Winklevoss’ Facebook idea. How DARE you say real Americans don’t steal! ONLY real Americans steal, damn it! D:
Re: Re: STOP this Crap people
I lol’ed
Re: STOP this Crap people
You’re just wrong on this one. First off while you were not forced to update unless you wanted to play on PSN that was fine. But New games came out and you were also forced to update in order to play single player mode on a new game. Thus to be able to use your console as your bought it you were in fact forced to update and lose the OtherOS option in order to play a new game you bought.
Stop acting like your some how superior. Sony started a war that they will never win. They’re causing far more harm to their community and lost far more money now then they would have had to spend on just keeping the OtherOS option.
Sony failed and is trying to use the courts to solve an unsolvable problem. Things will never go back to how they were and destroying their community seems like a very short sighted tactic.
Re: Re: Seriously the lamest excuse since "it not u its me"
Removing OtherOS for Linux is the most pi*s poor excuse I have ever heard. Are you a child? USE LINUX ON A DESKTOP LIKE A REAL MAN! The user agreement clearly states that the software “may change or discontinue without notice” or something to that extent. Either read the user agreement or dont, but you cannot blame Sony. You modders and hackers did this to the “community”. Their agreement stated thus clearly.
Re: Re: Re: Seriously the lamest excuse since "it not u its me"
Oh wow, a EULA, a contract that has no “meeting of the minds” and is totally unenforceable.
Re: Re: Re:2 Seriously the lamest excuse since "it not u its me"
and, when combined with the ‘no refunds on software’ laws in place in some countries, is arguably not only unenforceable, but legally invalid in the first place.
(and if it’s not, some legislates, lobbyists, and lawyers need shooting in the nuts repeatedly.)
Re: Re: Re:2 Seriously the lamest excuse since "it not u its me"
well apparently sir, they are “enforcing it”.
Re: Re: Re: Seriously the lamest excuse since "it not u its me"
Real man would right their own OS from scratch, people using Linux are pussies.
Re: Re: Re: Seriously the lamest excuse since "it not u its me"
What about Cell development?
Re: STOP this Crap people
1. Yes, perish the thought that someone might want to keep both features that they paid for rather than choose between them!
2. Still leaving a lot of people and more like me who don’t own one but can still call Sony’s handling of the whole affair laughable and dumber than a bag of lobotimised monkeys. Your point was?
3. Does it only count if you’re american then? ALso:
Isn’t copyright infringement civil? So the police wouldn’t be really interested, would they?
Non-sequitur. Nothing is stolen.
So the definition of “real american” only includes those with genius-level programming skills to single-handedly replicate the collective effort in the average game. Good to know. I wasn’t aware you had quite such an immigration problem with only a few thousand “natives” at best.
4. I understand the above just fine – all total ranting pointlessness, but perfectly comprehensible. It’s just you I don’t understand and that’s just fine because I’m sure I wouldn’t like the weather on your planet anyway.
Re: STOP this Crap people
… the amount of stupid and wrong in this post is pretty epic.
good job 😀
Re: STOP this Crap people
“1. If you did not want the other OS option removed you should not have updated your system.”
Updates often exist to correct manufacturer defects in the product’s software. When Sony sells the product they should sell it without such defects. If the product has a defect then customers have a right to have such defects corrected. The customers were sold the product under the pretext that it will not have defects or that future defects will be corrected. They were also sold the product under the pretext that they can freely switch between the OtherOs and the software that the PS3 came configured with. To then remove such a selling point of the product is false advertising. It means that people are either stuck with the OtherOs, which is different from what they were promised when they sold the product (that they can freely transition from one to the other), or that, upon switching and updating their firmware to one with fewer defects (and perhaps fewer security holes and security holes become a big problem once they are discovered if no update is installed to correct them) they will be unable to switch back, the ability to switch back once again being a feature that was promised to them. Or, perhaps they can switch to the old firmware from the OtherOS (not sure how that works, if they can store the old firmware and restore it), but then they will be stuck with defected firmware that potentially has security holes that everyone now knows about thanks to the new update that fixes them (and the fact that people can now look at the new updates to determine what security holes, if any, they attempt to correct and then they can use those security holes on unupdated systems).
When people bought the PS3 they had a reasonable expectation that it will support the other OS and that they will still be able to keep their system up to date at the same time. Sony implied it. Sony didn’t tell anyone otherwise. Sony said that the PS3 supports the use of another OS, it doesn’t specify that it only supports another OS under the condition that you can’t update your firmware. The assumption is that the other OS is supported with the ability to update your firmware (not to mention, certain features may stop working on older firmware a while after newer firmware has been released, features that previously did work on such older firmware). To then require people not to update their firmware in order to use the other OS is deceitful and fraudulent.
Re: Re: STOP this Crap people
“The customers were sold the product under the pretext that it will not have defects or that future defects will be corrected.”
should read
“The customers were sold the product under the pretext that it will not have defects or that such defects will be corrected in the future”
Re: STOP this Crap people
“1. If you did not want the other OS option removed you should not have updated your system”
So if Microsoft suddenly decides to remove the calculator that comes with their operating system on the next update, without warning, will their argument be “If you want to keep the calculator then don’t update your operating system.” I’d like to see how far that gets them in court. Sure, many people probably don’t even use the calculator that often. But some people use it at least sometimes. Microsoft can’t just randomly revoke features after the fact without warning people of such a possibility before they bought the OS. Why can Sony?
Re: Re: STOP this Crap people
There was warning. It’s in the Sony user agreement. IE “reserve the right to remove/alter features and services without notice”. Typical contractual fare, yet sadly either most here didn’t bother reading the agreement, or flatly ignore the legal basis to bolster their erroneous argument. Sony is legally within it’s rights. Period.
Re: STOP this Crap people
1. I bought this PS3 it belongs to me I want my update and my OtherOS
2. Same as above
3. Software Piracy is not “theft” this has been explained multiple times here. Stealing is quite American ever since Columbus discovered America and killed the natives and took their land.
4. If you can’t do a simple search on this site to get a grasp on a decent arguement then you’re too stupid to handle being in a digital society.
Hacker does not Equal Cheater does not equal Pirate
A lot of you here seem to be labeling the hackers as cheaters and that is why they need their consoles banned. This is quite the wrong approach. It is the same approach that the RIAA uses. Just because some functionality exists, does not mean it is being used for evil. There are plenty of cheats for plenty of games that people online exploit without ever having a modded console. It happens on the XBox, it happens on the PS3, and it happens elsewhere too. Sometimes the games are just buggy or have an exploit that people can use to play very unfairly.
This mod that leads to the modded console might, and probably can be used to make cheating easier. However, that does not mean that every modder is using it to cheat, or to pirate. It is a very unfair label to place on them. Because of that I cannot condone what Sony is doing with banning people just because they mod. They should get some solid proof that people are actually cheating / pirating and not just “you modded so you are banned”.
As an AC above gave a good post on, there are plenty of ways to deal with cheaters. However, the topic of Mike’s article is the modders. And you guys need to stop assuming that a modder is a cheater or pirate. They are 3 separate groups that likely overlap some, but nowhere near entirely. I would understand banning the cheaters, but not just because a console is modded.
A large part of the reason Sony is catching backlash for this is because of their scorched earth approach. They are not going after the ‘bad’ guys here, they are just nuking the entire group from orbit and taking down all of the legitimate people at the same time. And that, is why they are seen as the bad guys here. They are just being lazy and anti consumer. If they took the time and effort to only affect the bad people, a lot more people would be on their side (including me).
The whole point from me here is the subject of my post: Just because somebody is a hacker (or modder in this case) does not make them a cheater at the games, and it also does not make them a pirate. Those three categories would have some overlap, but they are not all within one circle.
Re: Hacker does not Equal Cheater does not equal Pirate
You show me someone with a modded ps3, and I’ll show you someone with burned/bootleg games. Seriously bro, you’re not fooling anyone here. Being lazy and anti-corporate is just as bad as being lazy and anti-consumer. 90% (if not more)of console modders and hackers have one thing in mind. Cheating or free games. Dont BS around the bush. Its true and you know it.
Re: Re: Hacker does not Equal Cheater does not equal Pirate
I don’t know about PS3s – maybe that’s a different culture – but I’m absolutely sure that most people with a modded Xbox, back in the day, did so to link up their computers to play their music collection, watch region-free movies, and play oldschool console emulators.
Nobody there cared about stealing actual xbox games. That’d be like, the most boring thing you could’ve possibly done with a modded xbox.
Re: Re: Hacker does not Equal Cheater does not equal Pirate
Cool, come over to my house and show me all my bootleg and burned PS3 games. I’m showing you a person right now. I don’t know if you’re aware, but it’s your turn to either put up and come by or shut up and keep that drivel to yourself.
Awaiting either no reply (because you know you won’t come over…it comes from being afraid) or an ad-hominem attack.
Re: Re: Re: Hacker does not Equal Cheater does not equal Pirate
Show me your stuff then. Send me a link. Im waiting. Unfortunately I work full time, but if you stay in SoCal, I’ll be there tonight. Send me a link to your mapquest directions and we’ll hook up. I’ll show you some ACTUAL homebrew if you’re interested.
Re: Re: Re:2 Hacker does not Equal Cheater does not equal Pirate
Wish I was. I’m in Texas. I dig the homebrew scene (beer and games!) so I’d be very interested in seeing it.
I could send you pics, but that wouldn’t prove much of anything. I guess you’ll just have to believe some of us are out here. However, if you’re ever in Northeast Texas I’m more than happy to show you my stuff and show you that there are those of us who don’t have any pirated games but still like to mod for several different reasons.
Re: Re: Re:3 Hacker does not Equal Cheater does not equal Pirate
Been to Texas. Nice people, but too damn hot. Got stuck in Shamrock Texas. Jesus, what a small and bizarre town. Mid summer and covered in neon colored orange and yellow crickets, like freakish apocalyptic amounts! Anyway, I make sprite based games (the old school way) and have no need for a PS3 farm, when I have a decent rig at home.
Im glad to hear there are legit users out there still brewing, but one has to admit the appeal of free games and cheating is what draws most to the scene. Perhaps, gladly, we are the minority here.
Re: Re: Hacker does not Equal Cheater does not equal Pirate
I have a modded PS3. I don’t own a single game for it, pirated or otherwise. Occasionally my girlfriend will bring over something she rented and I’ll need to update the firmware, but I bought the system because I’m a computer science researcher (well a hobbyist at this point) and there is not cheaper cell system on the market. I suppose though in your twisted little world because I didn’t buy any games I’m still a thief. With shills like you, who needs actual corporations?
Re: Re: Re: Hacker does not Equal Cheater does not equal Pirate
Why mod then? Whats your angle? If you’re developing homebrew then send me a link to your wares. Otherwise stop being full of it. You know as well as I why people mod. I mod my pc, but not my consoles. Thats for kids. So either you digg the aimbots or you want to play bootleg games. Which is it? If in fact you are a “computer researcher”, you are obviously an exception to the rule. In either case there is no excuse for hacking, or modding a gaming console really. If you are what you say you are, hook me up with some homebrew games, and I’ll show you some of mine.
Re: Re: Re:2 Hacker does not Equal Cheater does not equal Pirate
I have a master’s degree in computer science, my job is currently in IT so I’m not doing any active research, hence the “hobbyist” reference. I don’t make homebrew, I’m using the PS3’s cell processors as a poor man’s cluster. But then again, from the sound of your post you already know everybody’s reasons for doing anything so I’m not even sure why I’m responding.
Re: Re: Re:3 Hacker does not Equal Cheater does not equal Pirate
You know the “poor mans cluster” could be better achieved with a faster pc right? I mean, for the price of a PS3, you could get a quad core with at least 2-4GB these days. Im pretty poor too, but have a desktop that kicks my PS3’s ass. Seriously, PS3 is not the pinnacle of modern computing power!Again, if you are the exception to the rule, great. More power to ya bro! But you know as well as I, that half of these knuckleheads are only attempting to justify piracy. That is my only point. Most people developing are genuinely into the research, whilst those whom scour the web for their hard earned wares, generally just want to cheat or get free games.
Re: Re: Re:4 Hacker does not Equal Cheater does not equal Pirate
Just for illumination, we’re talking about different types of processing power. Most desktop chips will outperform cells, where cell takes the lead is with FLOPs, although I’m discovering that modern GPUs actually outperform the cells in some circumstances. There are plenty of supercomputing groups that use clusters of PS3s for their heavy number crunching, they’re not all pirates and dirty cheaters.
Re: Re: Re:4 Hacker does not Equal Cheater does not equal Pirate
What are you retarded?
So what who cares I don’t, cheating in games is not important, but my absolute trust on what I buy is, I don’t want to buy a car in the future and have it downgraded, I don’t want to buy a insulin pump and have it downgraded, I don’t want my F’ing fridge locked because I changed something that the company selling the stupid fridge didn’t like it.
This is the most horrible act any company could do and everyone should be complaining this is an assault on the right of ownership people have, I am “buying” something to discover it was really a lease or some weasel talk about how licenses are different that is just BS.
You want to be ass raped by Sony go ahead, the rest of us will never buy anything from that crappy company ever and anybody saying this is ok is the real douche if not a real criminal.
Just to state how this make me angry, if people got the Sony executives beaten on the streets and I was on that jury I would set everybody free.
Re: Re: Re:4 Hacker does not Equal Cheater does not equal Pirate
You know the “poor mans cluster” could be better achieved with a faster pc right?
Do you know what a cluster is? Do you know that programming for a cluster is different than programming for a standard processor? Do you understand that a quad core is not the same thing as a cluster?
Repeating over and over that “only some people use the OtherOS” or “only some people use the OtherOS legitimately” doesn’t make your arguments any less stupid. Once you buy something, it is yours, and you should be able to use it as you wish. If they wanted to ban people from PSN, fine; but you can’t even use it for Netflix if you don’t update the software.
Also, you keep referring to the EULA (well, you called it the DMCA but I’m pretty sure you have no idea what you’re talking about), are you aware that EULAs have been regularly thrown out in court as being too 1-sided, too vague, and unenforceable?
Good lord, you are shillin’ hardcore.
Re: Re: Re:4 Hacker does not Equal Cheater does not equal Pirate
Go here:
http://hackaday.com/
And call everybody cheaters and thieves and see what happens.
No one there “BUY” F’ING HARDWARE to have it tampered with after, no one there would buy a brick that the owner wouldn’t let go.
Re: Re: Re:4 Hacker does not Equal Cheater does not equal Pirate
1 PS3 have 100 ~ 230 Gigaflops capacity
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PlayStation_3_hardware
A cheap render farm with 248 gigaflops using normal processors would cost something in the ballpark of 6,000 dollars.
http://kdmurray.net/2008/05/24/diy-render-farm-186gigaflops/
So you are just an idiot who doesn’t know about hardware great, a f’ing idiot shilling for Sony.
Re: Re: Hacker does not Equal Cheater does not equal Pirate
I used OtherOS to install Linux and made my PS3 my word processor that just happened to play games.
I must clearly be a HackerPirateCommieJew. -.-
Re: Re: Re: Hacker does not Equal Cheater does not equal Pirate
Or dont have a pc? Word processor? What is this, 1992?
Re: Re: Re:2 Hacker does not Equal Cheater does not equal Pirate
Ni, I just liked my mini keyboard, and lugging around my PS3 along with that crazy screen. I also lug around a fuel canister to power it, too. I had a laptop, which was more convenient, but the PS3’s portability was a massive bonuses.
Re: Re: Re:2 Hacker does not Equal Cheater does not equal Pirate
OMG SOMEONE DID SOMETHING I WOULDNT DO FOR REASONS I CANT UNDERSTAND
Re: Re: Hacker does not Equal Cheater does not equal Pirate
Seriously I don’t give a f., people want to make this a criminal matter fine, I will be snoring over there 🙂
Re: Re: Hacker does not Equal Cheater does not equal Pirate
“90% (if not more)of console modders and hackers have one thing in mind. Cheating or free games. Dont BS around the bush. Its true and you know it.”
Citation requested.
Please don’t pull numbers out of your ass and expect anyone to believe they are fact. It makes you look ignorant and your finger probably smells like sh!t too! Maybe you are just padding your “body of work” for the next available RIAA or MPAA position available.
Re: Re: Re: GTFO
Its called common sense dingus! If you know there’s a way to get free games, as opposed to paying $60, the majority will try to get them free. If you would like a “citation” here ya go smartass!
http://n4g.com/news/506395/how-many-people-use-linux-on-ps3-for-internet-lets-find-out/com#c-3532656
This article states ONLY 0.66% OF PS3 USERS ACTUALLY USED THE OTHER OS FEATURE/LINUX. MEANING 99% OF ALL THOSE CRYING AND WHINING ABOUT IT’S REMOVAL ARE FULL OF SH*T, AND ONLY LOOKING FOR AN EXCUSE TO JUSTIFY THEIR CHEATING/PIRACY. Get off you high horse dipsh*t and retort. I’ll be waiting.
Re: Re: Re:2 GTFO
By the way, if anyone’s finger smells like shit, it only your upper lip.
Re: Re: Re:3 GTFO
Wow, flawed statistics much?
That “aricle” is based on the percentage of PS3 visitors to his particular blog. A whopping 1210 visitors is NOT statistically significant.
BTW, I’m a linux user as well, and enjoyed the YDL OS on my PS3. It made a nice media center with my server running Ubuntu.
Now I have to use some software to stream music and video to my PS3.
Re: Re: Re:3 GTFO
Wow, flawed statistics much?
That “article” is based on the percentage of PS3 visitors to his particular blog. A whopping 1210 visitors is NOT statistically significant.
BTW, I’m a linux user as well, and enjoyed the YDL OS on my PS3. It made a nice media center with my server running Ubuntu.
Now I have to use some software to stream music and video to my PS3.
Re: Re: Re:2 GTFO
That just shows that the vast majority also don’t pirate anything moron.
Re: Re: Re:2 GTFO
http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2011/feb/28/playstation-3-lg-legal-dispute
That is why when I read that Sony was banned in Europe for patent violations and every PS3 must be seized and destroyed, I just laughed.
Re: Re: Hacker does not Equal Cheater does not equal Pirate
“You show me someone with a modded ps3, and I’ll show you someone with burned/bootleg games. Seriously bro, you’re not fooling anyone here…..”
Sure, if you use a shitty XBOX thats about all you can do with it. The ability to use an IBM Cell Processor with 7 working cores is why most people want a modded ps3. Learn your hardware.
Re: Re: Re: Hacker does not Equal Cheater does not equal Pirate
Actually, thats not why MOST people want a modded ps3. Get real. 90% want free games/or to cheat. Stop diluting yourself. The other %10 are simply too cheap to get an actual render farm, or a desktop setup with any kind of balls.
Re: Re: Re:2 Hacker does not Equal Cheater does not equal Pirate
You get real punk, the people capable of cheating on the PSN are not great and about free games that is no anyones problem except the manufacturer, the only problem people have is a bastard trying to tamper with the hardware remotely and claiming it still owns something, f. Sony, f. you, and f. the law if it says this BS is legal.
Re: Re: Re: Hacker does not Equal Cheater does not equal Pirate
shitty xbox? I think me smells a fanboy! Boy are you in the wrong room!
Re: Re: Hacker does not Equal Cheater does not equal Pirate
Any citation to back that up?
And even if it was 90%, that still means that Sony is being lazy and banning people who don’t deserve it. My point stands even with your numbers that have no proof.
Re: Hacker does not Equal Cheater does not equal Pirate
The modding itself is the violation of the DMCA. There doesn’t need to be proof of cheating or piracy. Be they “all in one circle” or not, the line has already been crossed at that point.
Re: Re: Hacker does not Equal Cheater does not equal Pirate
and that right there is a prime example of why the entire DMCA thing is seriously screwed up.
Re: Re: Hacker does not Equal Cheater does not equal Pirate
http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2011/feb/28/playstation-3-lg-legal-dispute
Well when Sony start paying up to LG and have the PS3 legalized again in Europe you come talk about DMCA and that BS you like to talk.
Re: Re: Re: Hacker does not Equal Cheater does not equal Pirate
Maybe due to this lawsuit the next firmware update Sony send out will disable the blu-ray drive? Its not like it is an important feature for some people! (Just like OtherOS)
When hell, or something, freezes over
Sony will stop this shite when people stop buying Sony products in retaliation for Sony’s lack of respect for their customers…
Re: get real
Sony has nothing but respect for its customers, so long as you follow the user agreement. The people disrespecting are the modders and hackers that attempt to use the removal of the “OtherOs feature” to justify blatant piracy. Dont act like modders and hackers aren’t doing anything wrong. Sony is well within it’s rights, protecting its software and it’s investments. Nobody has the right to alter THEIR proprietary software. Like nobody can sample a MC hammer song without paying MC hammer a stipend. It’s their OS, like it or not.
Re: Re: get real
Is this the same respect we got when we played legally purchased CDs in our computers and got a rootkit for doing so?
Re: Re: get real
Dont act like modders and hackers aren’t doing anything wrong.
Do you believe those that hack are doing something wrong if all they want to do is run a homebrew game?
Nobody has the right to alter THEIR proprietary software. Like nobody can sample a MC hammer song without paying MC hammer a stipend. It’s their OS, like it or not.
Wrong. If I want to reverse engineer Sony’s software I have the right to do it (sharing it with others may pose problems though). Just like I can resample MC Hammer’s song anyway I wish for my own personal enjoyment.
Re: Re: Re: get real
SHOW ME YOUR HOMEBREW THEN, OR BE LABELED A BULLSHI**ER! Im AWATING A LINK…
Re: Re: Re:2 get real
SHOW ME YOUR HOMEBREW THEN, OR BE LABELED A BULLSHI**ER! Im AWATING A LINK…
Never said I ran homebrew, I don’t even own a PS3.
I simply asked you a question (which you didn’t answer).
Re: Re: Re:3 get real
Obviously not. I have already admitted I make homebrew games. I use flash mostly, but have tinkered with many platforms (mostly sprite based animations/games). I do not believe it is wrong to “add” to the equation, by either adding functionality or creating games. It IS wrong for some schmuck to rip a bunch of ps3 isos, put them on torrent sites so a million others can play them on their modded decks. Or for someone to use a modification to cheat in say, Modern Warfare 2. This is lame, and not fun unless you’re the cheater. This is the problem at hand. People simply and shallowly wanting free games, or to cheat for the sake of cheating. BS if you ask me. An N4g article stated only %0.66 of PS3 users actually USED the OtherOS function. Meaning all those who use that as an excuse are just about %99.4 full of shit.
Re: Re: Re:4 get real
Fair enough. That was a well stated response of your position and I respect your right to your own opinion.
Re: Re: get real
That’s a nice bit of question-begging, there. Don’t you realize that one of the important questions being discussed here is what rights Sony (or any manufacturer of hardware) actually has, or should have? Neither you nor Sony can create rights by merely asserting that you have them. If you are talking about legal “rights”, you may (or may not) be correct, but that is not what most other commenters are talking about, and is not how the unqualified term “rights” is generally used.
I believe that anyone who owns a PS3 has a natural right to alter Sony’s proprietary software on that PS3, and I also believe that anyone has a natural right to sample an MC Hammer song for use in a derivative work. I am, therefore, led to the conclusion that certain DMCA restrictions on hacking and the extension of copyright to derivative works are both improper, and should removed from their respective laws.
On the other hand, I do believe that Sony has the right to forbid modded PS3 units from playing on PSN, because PSN is an entity that they own, and they can restrict access in any way that is made quite clear before a user purchases a PS3. That does not mean I necessarily think it is wise for Sony to do this, of course; that is a business decision, not a moral one, and I don’t know enough about Sony’s business to make any judgment.
By the way, you should write “within its rights”, not “within it’s rights”.
Re: Re: get real
“Sony has nothing but respect for its customers.”
CITATION NEEDED!!!
Oh it’s the usual douche, never mind.
Re: Re: Re: get real
is ‘citation needed’ really the proper response to a statement that is flat out false?
Re: Re: get real
And hiding behind the law to justify a power grab is what bitch?
Re: Re: Re: get real
your mother?
Re: Re: Re:2 get real
I power grabbed her too!
Cheaters DO ruin games. You may continue on all other points, but when there is a cheater in nearly every game there is no point to continue playing that game in an unmodded fashion. You either stop playing or start cheating because it’s irritating, unfair, and breaks the gameplay mechanics you bought the game for.
Re: Re:
Agreed. There is NO justification for cheating or bootlegging games. Cry and whine all you want about Sony, in the end, these modders and hackers only want free bootleg games. Seriously, trying to use removal of OtherOS as a reason to mod? Less than 1% of all ps3 users actually used the OtherOS feature. Meaning, it’s total BS! They just want free games! Shame on you cheap SOB’s! Get a job and buy your games!
Re: Re: Re:
It really doesn’t matter I wouldn’t buy a brick if the owner insisted they had the “right” to modify that brick after or remove it from my construction.
There is something more fundamental, and that is the the right to own something.
Software is being used in more and more things everyday and this is just a dangerous precedent that could lead to a lot of problems for people in all walks of life.
Today is a game console who cares?
Tomorrow will be your car, your phone, your security system, your house who knows, once it gets out of the hands of the manufacture they have no business trying to tell other how they should use what they f’ing bought with their f’ing money.
That is why everyone should boycott Sony and not buy anything from them, so this is a example to other stupid people who think this is a good idea, more the laws should be changed to not allow this kind of behavior.
I don’t f’ing buy hardware to have it disabled or tampered after by some asshole that thinks he still own what he sold me.
Re: Re:
Interestingly, the wide-spread cheating back in the days of Starcraft 1 never really hurt it.
Mike, I agree with a lot of what you say on this site but statements like “Sony apparently wants to punish people who want to put back features that Sony advertised and then removed.” are bullshit.
There is a small subset of people who want to use Linux/Homebrew on the PS3. You know, you HAVE to know that the majority of people don’t give a rats ass about the OtherOS option, all they want is free games.
Re: Re:
EXACTLY. (this guys a genius).
Re: Re:
You know, you HAVE to know that the majority of people don’t give a rats ass about the OtherOS option, all they want is free games.
The problem with sweeping generalizations (a logical fallacy), is that they often cause people to make arguments that seek to punish the whole for the actions of the few.
Fortunately our legal system usually gets things right when it comes to the big questions. For example, last week the SCOTUS ruled in favor of the sign toting hate mongers better known as the Westboro Baptist Church because they recognize that ensuring free speech for everyone is more important than stopping some speech which we don’t like.
Unfortunately our legal system usually gets things wrong when it comes to the little questions. I appreciate that Sony is manufacturing a product which people wish to use and enjoy; however, I don’t see why that gives Sony the right to behave with as much authority as the police (in their little realm) but with far less oversight. Do you know a judge ordered the that Sony could access every IP address that was used to access the original hackers website? Where does Sony’s authority end? Do I even own a PS3 after I buy it? Or would you equate it to something more like a rental? If it is a rental then why don’t I have any of the rights which come along with renting any other goods?
Re: Re: Re:
Unfortunately, logic and facts do not support your hypothesis. There are hundreds, if not thousands of sites for PS3 hacks, homebrew and ripped ps3 ISO files. FAR more than there is petitioning for the return of legitimate OtherOS (linux) functionality. Sweeping generalizations, while crude, can also be quite concise. Do a google search on ps3 iso (I got over 5 million pages). This is the problem sir, not the interpretation of legality in binding contracts (such as the Sony User Agreement which states “services and features can be dropped or changed at any time without notice”.) Standard contractual fare, but apparently overlooked by the whining masses.
Re: Re: Re: Re:
Do a google search on ps3 iso (I got over 5 million pages).
Ohhh, 5 million … well I’m convinced. Of course, 1/4 of those are news sites reporting on the lawsuit and half of them are just forum posts like “ps3 iso is whicked Swizzet!!” … so that sort of puts a damper on your 5 million.
Unfortunately, logic and facts do not support your hypothesis. There are hundreds, if not thousands of sites for PS3 hacks, homebrew and ripped ps3 ISO files.
What hypothesis are you referring to exactly. I have a problem with Sony overreaching what the law allows and I have an even bigger problem with what the law already allows. Why on earth should Sony be allowed to know the IP address of every person who visited the original hackers site? What standing does Sony have to sue individuals who are cracking their system to play homebrew or downloaded games?
Should Sony have been allowed to sue people using the walkman to play copied cassette tapes? Should LG be allowed to sue people using their TVs to watch downloaded movies?
My “hypotheses” is that the court has allowed Sony to move forward with a lawsuit but Sony doesn’t have a horse in that race. Some will argue that the DMCA circumvention provisions make this illegal but I don’t understand how electronic products can be treated differently from anything else you purchase.
What’s next, can Hamilton Beech add software to their toasters that keeps them from toasting bagels and then sue anyone who disables the software? Try thinking about tomorrow when you’re making decisions today.
Re: Re: Re:2 circular logic
Your being circular friend. The Sony User agreement (had you read it, or even read the above response) stated they can change/alter features and services at any time without notice. The courts, unfortunately, recognize contractual agreements. Regardless of public perception or angst.
Re: Re: Re: Re:
You’re ranting about piracy, so let me ask you this.
How many of those sites advertising PS3 iso’s and hacks went down after 3.21 was released?
Answer: None.
Why? Because the OtherOS had very little to do with piracy.
So obviously all those cheaters DON’T need the OtherOS to run them, or they’d be complaining too.
Honestly cheating has not gone down one bit since the OtherOS got pulled, and neither has piracy.
And one other thing. Its not sony’s problem if there is cheating in games. Thats the developers fault. So if someones hacking MW2, thats InfinityWard’s problem. They have to solve it.
Thank god Sony doesn’t run the US government, their approach to solve real piracy would be to nuke Somalia.
Re: Re: Re:
My point is, that Mike isn’t really commenting on the whole story. He takes the one side, but doesn’t mention the damages that modded consoles can cause to Sonys online service.
Re: Re: Re: POINT
Grimby,
So, I can install Linux and get onto their service?
or
I can Halt updating the console, and it will HURT PSN??
LOL of the week award.
Go look a company called Steam powered…STEAM GAMES..Half life 1-2 and many other games..from Linux/PC/MAC.. do you REALLY think its a problem?
IF sony would OPEN up the service, they MIGHT have PC users jumping onto the wagon. Insted of CLOSING the console MARKET…OPEN IT.
Re: Re: Re:2 POINT
Sorry ECA you post is moronic. You’re doing the exact same thing, you’re picking one part of the issue to defend and not looking at the whole picture.
Are you denying modded consoles, if connected to the PSN can’t and won’t ruin the integrity of the PSN? Are you trying to say that the only reason anyone would even mod a console is for homebrew and Linux? If so, you’re delusional.
Re: Re: Re:3 POINT
Not trying to be an AC, forgot to enter my name.
Re: Re: Re:4 POINT
I like debating 1 point at a time.
sO, you think more then 10% of those in the USA hack this device so they can USE hacked games?
Thats a real big number.
I wonder if a SERVER can regulate and control a GAME, rather then the CLIENT SIDE.
So, they dont/wont/cant/.. TRY/DO what every other PC game has ever done to control CHEATS?
Or is your complaint that of LOST SALES?
is it a requirement to hack the hardware FIRST? thats a reason to change the OS, many times. Filling HOLES. What if one of those HOLES eliminates the ability to play 10-20% of games created for this device?
I will think that you are a person that lets MS install anything on your computer, you even goto their site and load up there small gadgets/games..did you know that a few of those games are virus’d??
According to Sony/MS you have NO RIGHT to install any software not SOLD by sony/ms. did you know that is against the law? If someone makes software to WORK on the device, they have no protection. THE ONLY protection they have is your console. and they CAN change that, and RESTRICT any 3rd party use.
Do they have the RIGHT to restrict your USE? NO.
Do they go out and kill off sites that GIVE ROMS of their games? not really.
Re: Re: Re:5 ALSO
Where is there mention of using ROMS??
the article is:
“Hackers Claim They Can Unban Banned PS3s While Banning Unmodded PS3s”
Its about MODDED PS3’s..hacked hardware. and that is
Re: Re: Re: Re:
I don’t care f. Sony, it is my hardware they have no say in it and shouldn’t have no say in it.
More if I create an alternative network and start taking clients from them it is their problem not mine or anyone else.
If I paid for it, I don’t want them telling me how I should use it or not, it is not their business and it is not yours also.
Re: Re: Re:2 Re:
You’re welcome to use your PS3 as you see fit, just don’t expect access to the PSN.
Re: Re:
Assuming that’s true, does it make any difference? It’s becoming pretty clear the PS3 platform is so full of holes those people you’re talking about will be able to get free games no matter how many teddies Sony throw out of the pram. Doesn’t it then make sense to stop before you throw all your paying customers overboard while mistaking them for plush?
Re: Re: Re:
The funny part of that statement is that the idiot gladly acknowledge that the piracy problem is small and that the number of cheaters is small because if the majority of the people don’t care they are not the ones cheating or getting free stuff.
I don't know much about it
you may be borderline retarded…
Their master keys are exposed, they can only play catch up from here on.
and the other option is to keep the otherOS, shield from updates, and continue your dis-assembly work.
I have a problem here.
When you buy a product, it is SUPPOSED to belong to YOU. You DIDNT PAY to lease a product/console and NOT be allowed to FIX IT.
If I lease/rent a product, Who is responsible for repairs/maintenance/oil changes? Not myself.
Who here would be considered a PIRATE, or installing an After market product on/in a car? Anyone here install a Phone/ipod charger in a car?
HOW do you think our mechanics got a start? Learn from playing around with a car. BUILDING a car. Fixing an engine…
For you modders and hackers, how many times have you had to AUGMENT your computer? How many times have you NEEDED a person to kill those virus’s? FIX a power supply? NEW video card??
IF’ you really want a suggestion, read up on the Lawsuit between Atari and Activision, from long ago, on the Atari 2600. Then think about 1 strange thing. MS/APPLE are going in the same direction. They DONT want games on your computer. they are trying to Force you to CONSOLES. Yes, its a conspiracy. But, at the price of consoles, you could CREATE a computer for only GAMES, and run about 60-80% of ALL the games with an emulator.
Re: I have a problem here.
I second that and a bit more (see below)
Re: I have a problem here.
The product does in fact belong to you. The software (OS), owned and developed by Sony, is NOT. It is also clearly, quite clearly stated in the Sony User Agreement, that “features and services can be changed or removed without notice”. This is a standard contract point, yet SOOOO MANY seem to forget or act ignorant about Sony’s rights in this matter. PSN is not yours, the ability to tweek your PS3 is fine,…so long as you’re not using it to pirate or go online and exploit cheats. This is what Sony is combating. It is not the creative modder making homebrew in his basement, it’s the asshole ripping ps3 iso’s and posting them online, to torrent sites, so others with “modded” decks can play them. Whats so hard to understand here?
Re: Re: I have a problem here.
“to ban any jailbroken PS3 from the PlayStation Network, “
Jail broken is HACKED/modded..
They wanted a feature that was ALREADY THERE.
Just as you have the right to tell WINDOWS, NOT to auto update.
Go look up the law suit of Atari/activision..its on the wiki.
Sony/MS want to LOCK DOWN THE CONSOLE. anything done to it, is THEIR own creation. They do not want Anyone or company, to modify it..PERIOD.
Re: Re: I have a problem here.
So what it is not my problem f. you and have a nice day punk.
Do not try to claim ownership on what I legally paid.
I will do whatever I want with that crap and there is no law that will stop me from doing so and I dare any MF try to do it.
Reality check
Ok this is the age old argument… and this war is blind to the real reasons behind it and agenda.
Nice way of destroying any reasonable debate.
Your “talk” reminds me of the abortion debate. How do you suddenly turn everything around to make the “other side” look like terrible monsters?
Easy: Call one side “Pro-Life”, and the other side “Pro-Choice”. It’s impossible to choose a side, because the implication is that you are either a murderer or a fascist.
End result: People shut up, they are too afraid to take sides and become much easier to manipulate. Mission accomplished.
Work both sides for your agenda.
The point is words like hacker and Corperate G-man is nobody remembers the days of MPlayer or Gamespy and the networks before proprietary crap like PS3Net or B.net or XboxLive. Seeing it yet? Yeah its pretty simple. Dont use the net that’s free you must pay us, be monitored by us, or ELSE.
OH and I do remember MPlayer & GameSpy quite well.. the reporting feature WORKED. Ban the Cheater not the people who want more functionality out of there gaming computer (aren’t euphemisms fun?).
Wake up people!
hmmmm
Yes, cheaters suck, but they dont need to be banned. Let server admins determine who is cheating.
As long as there is a way to ban user IDs from a server, cheating is NEVER a problem for more than a minute or two. Just because someone modded their PS3 doesnt mean they will cheat.
Unless its easy to make a new ID (I dont own a PS3, sony can kiss my…) in which case, a new system would have to be created, such as the ability to ban an IP (or console ID, if it exists) from a server.
Nonetheless, I am 19 and I just thought of 3 ways it could have been done without banning the entire console.
Re: hmmmm
Ryan,
The problem is NOT the cheater. its the person that wants to use MORE features NOT available.. Or make something BETTER..
As in using the unit as a media player, or install Linux and have MORE options, then JUST SONY/MS-XBOX..
If the corp thinks you changed the BOX, they can Turn it OFF, and you will have NO ACCESS. just a dead box.
Re: hmmmm
No, cheaters should be banned. They violated the rules of the game. Everyone else is following the rules. What makes the cheater so special we should just all bend over and let him ruin our game? NO sir. NOT cool. Keep it in a private match with the other cheaters, or be banned.
Also, the ideas you describe would not work. The gamers ID is inherently attached to the IP. Together they make the user profile. The user profile, if banned, bans both the ID and IP. The only way to avoid is to get a new unit and new ID and a seperate connection (new IP). MUCH MUCH easier to just “not cheat” to put it simply.
Re: Re: hmmmm
..Aaand not one person has said that cheats shouldn’t be banned from the PSN. Nice strawman.
Its been coverd...
With at least 10 comments here you can easily see that sony is out of its collective mind. Somewhere they saw an opportunity of controlling something you sell as if they gave you the machine out of a truck located in a walmart parking lot.
To ban a cheater from the only thing that makes a system “media” worthy is an obvious control reach. Many systems way before PSN showed that you don’t punish the lot because of one kid who does not wipe his feet. My main example is steam…you get pegged for disrupting the out come of a game and they no longer let you play on servers that people care about. A whole realm of other servers exist that don’t have such strict environments. simple.
What sony has done is dug a rabbit hole and honestly they are not coming back from it. I have a hard time wanting the system, I just want some of the games it can play…they made it hard to care.
false merketing
“Riddle me this: I was advertised access to the PSN AND to the OtherOS feature
Thats AND, not OR”
We have false marketing statutes here in VA for that kind of thing.
Re: false merketing
do they handle the fact that it was true at the time?
Wow. So almost every gun owner only bought a gun in the hopes of one day becoming a murderer?
Piracy is somewhat bad but boost sales when a console is pirated, boost music sales, boost movies renting and sales…
Sony in the other hand is far from better, they made a rookit to stop music piracy but they sell mp3 and divx players …
They were my console choice only for the linux support, I ditched them after the other os removal, linux on the ps3 was the best to help folding@home …
Sony will never understand that piracy come from hardware hackers that want to use the hardware for some specific uses, that’s why the ps3 wasn’t pirated before the other OS removal, everyone was happy with the playstation 3 …
So, I think that Sony will have to try to hide for a long time, they have now have pretty powerful foes everywhere around the world, We will soon see Sony throw the towel with their logs history of visitors of Geohot websites, most of them were coming from the slashdot.org website and are IT professionnals so they will have about thousands of maybe hackers !!!
Sony may die, I won’t buy anything from them anymore !!!
Re: Re:
If everyone was happy before the OtherOS was removed, then why was it removed due to it being used as an attack vector on the system?
Sony might try to demand that this hack be censored and this attempt at censorship will only result in more people knowing about it, making things even worse for Sony.
Canadian stance.
Under our law, EULA’s are not valid unless signed before the purchase of anything with a EULA.
You have bought a unit. It is your unit. Sony has no right to brick your unit for doing what you want with it. If I applied Geohotz mod to run another OS on my ps3, did not do anything to interfere with the psn network (hacking is a criminal offence in Canada). In Canada we are allowed to jailbreak our devices. Why you ask? Because it is our device after we have bought it.
If I put an OS on my ps3 and sony bricked it. I would be dragging their ass into court.
Look at it from the toaster perspective. You buy a nice dew digital toaster. You find out it only can toast bread from one manufacturer and only use power from one supply company. Is this fair. In most of the worlds opinion no its not. If you not careful of the people you back this is the direction the world is headed.
I wanted a PS3
I wanted a PS3, glad I did not get one, because of problems from Sony like this. I will just stick to my PC cause I can change everything on it.
RE: Stop this CRAP
1. I got my point across So waht was your point again for the spelling?
2. Trearing a statment into pieces with technical reteric is side stepping it is what political turds do when they can not answer a statment.
3. Where was all the compaining when sony removed the other OS. The point was to protect there developers from “piracy”
4. “piracy” is a method of stealling. see 2.
5. One person here made a good point. Playing SP can not be done in some gameswith out uppdating. I appologise I forgot they had set that in to motion recently do to piracy.
6. I am not the Morrale police but defending haveing the abblity to rip someone off is pretty freaking low. Someof you deserve to dowload the CFW and have it blow up in your PS3 gose up in flames or you just get your money ripped off by the designer of the CFW.
Why
Doesn’t someone just setup a separate server system like PSN and tell them to take theirs and shove it.
Sony sold a product with certain features then disabled those features. Would seem logical if the purchaser paid for those features they have the right to access them or Sony owes a lot of people refunds and now that LG is suing Sony over the PS3 it’s likely they’re gonna have to fork out some big bucks to LG. In the end – DON’T BUY SONY.
Enforcing Policy on PS Network
I don’t believe Sony’s motivation here to remove OtherOS can be justified solely by the propaganda disseminated, that this was due to cheaters and bootleggers. Which by the way, I think unfair given others rights are imposed on in the network. They could have remedied this by preventing access to the network unless they upgrade.However, I think it dubious and heavy handed, because it was initially sold with the feature and marketed that way. I think their reasoning for not preventing access is solely $$$ Money. As they preferred the devious route to forcing an upgrade which was slightly deceptive. Couple this and the fact that if an ID can be stolen, its not locked to hardware. So, this means a MASSIVELY inadequate security implementation and policy authentication system, which also costs money.
If Sony & the LAW chose to see the PS3 not solely as hardware product, but as some convoluted security device or dongle for their Gaming Business. Then its Sony’s negligence and their responsibility. If they had forced a USER Accept policy that was locked to ON CHIP ID or HARDWARE, as some unique encrypted identifiers implemented in security dongles like corporate VPN’s, silly things like this wouldn’t happen. What were they thinking, this is the internet. The PRIVATE NETWORK SERVICE is the future for them and other companies with regards revenue and if they wish to be taken serious, then they better start with good security policy and administration. Whilst your at it, you may wish to put SONY’S ruling elite through a refresher course.
Lets be honest, this can’t be about cheating or bootlegging since this activity has existed since day 1 and across ALL platforms. Sounds like a convenient convincing excuse though. People who harp on about ALL those users with the original OtherOS option activated being less than honorable are a little short sighted. Cynicism is no justification for a legal precedence. Remember it was sold with this and many who bought this when released did so, BECAUSE it was the cheapest way to get a BLU-RAY DRIVE! I know of lots of people who did not buy this primarily for games.
Anyhow, the legal end game here is if you bend a little they’ll take miles. You only need look Sony’s history to see they’ve been less than generous over the decades as a corporate citizen. Which is a shame, because they have a lot of good talented people working for them. It would seem their ruling elite have not evolved past the 1980’s, and I think I’m being generous.
Some posters on this forum highly critical of Mike’s controversial use of headlines forget, he is paid to invoke debate and discourse. Get over it, don’t make it personal its a forum.
hello, I am Max
I was banned from the PSN due to console hacking. I first bought my ps3 on a sony store but I did not bought any games. It is simple, I can’t afford the games. I was quite sad and depressed. The price of each games is like telling us people if you don’t have money go on and play with dirt. So I started searching for a way which I could play new games without the need of emptying my plate. I found CFWs, something for you play games without really depleting your wallet. But that wasn’t enough for me, so I went online to play square and fair with players. I’ve met so many new friends which were my online comrades for once I feel the sensation of awesomeness in the online universe. But 1 little accident ended my online. I wish to be unbanned I know its impossible but I never cheat even once in my online journey. I apologize to every legit player. But at least I bought the ps3 on my own, not a gift not parent’s money not being a spolied brat thats all thank you