Report Claims Discredited Study That Linked Vaccines To Autism Wasn't Just A Mistake, But An Outright Fraud
from the hide-your-kids,-hide-your-wife dept
One of the more controversial stories over the last decade (plus a few years) has been the claims linking childhood vaccinations to autism. A study in 1998 lead by Dr. Andrew Wakefield suggested a possible link, leading many parents to start shunning vaccines (and, in turn, resulting in an increase in children getting diseases that the vaccines prevent). The study did not, specifically, claim that the vaccines caused autism — but suggested they may have a “role” — so it was widely interpreted as meaning that the vaccines resulted in autism. However, the study itself was quickly called into question, and over the years, almost all support for the study has fallen away. Back in 2004, it was revealed that there was a major conflict of interest with Wakefield, in that he was funded by a law firm that was planning on suing vaccine makers, and wanted evidence to support their case. Wakefield had never disclosed that. Co-authors of the paper soon withdrew their support of the paper, and the publisher who originally published the paper finally (way too late) retracted it.
Last year, Wakefield lost his license to practice medicine in the UK, after he was found guilty of “serious professional misconduct.” That was because of serious ethical lapses in how he conducted the study. He apparently did invasive tests that were unnecessary and without the proper permission. He also tested a new vaccine — which was going to be sold by a company Wakefield had set up — on a child, without telling the child’s doctor, or mentioning the test in the child’s medical notes. And the kicker: “He was also found to have unethically arranged for his son’s friends to have blood samples taken from them during his birthday party — for which he paid them £5 each.”
The latest news is that a study of the original research has concluded that the problems with the original report do not appear to have been mere mistakes, but were almost certainly fraud. The report states that there is clear evidence that the data was falsified. The report does not beat around the bush:
Deer unearthed clear evidence of falsification. He found that not one of the 12 cases reported in the 1998 Lancet paper was free of misrepresentation or undisclosed alteration, and that in no single case could the medical records be fully reconciled with the descriptions, diagnoses, or histories published in the journal.
Who perpetrated this fraud? There is no doubt that it was Wakefield. Is it possible that he was wrong, but not dishonest: that he was so incompetent that he was unable to fairly describe the project, or to report even one of the 12 children?s cases accurately? No. A great deal of thought and effort must have gone into drafting the paper to achieve the results he wanted: the discrepancies all led in one direction; misreporting was gross.
The report also notes that Wakefield has never been able to replicate his findings. However, Wakefield is still standing by the original research, even as his co-authors have disavowed it and given all of the problems associated with it. That link goes to CNN and is a perfect example of what Jay Rosen refers to as “the view from nowhere” journalism. It seems to bend over backwards to let “both sides” weigh in on the story with some people supporting Wakefield, and others disagreeing, but appears to do nothing to help establish what is factual and what is not.
Filed Under: andrew wakefield, autism, fraud, vaccines
Comments on “Report Claims Discredited Study That Linked Vaccines To Autism Wasn't Just A Mistake, But An Outright Fraud”
Yep, Doctor fakes study for profit. We knew about this all along.
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you would hope that people would have figured it out when celebrities came out of the woodworks voicing support.
hint: when celebrities voice support for something, it’s pretty likely that it’s a bad idea.
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Like feeding the hungry and not beating your dog?
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Sure, everybody knows that BS.
; P
The view from nowhere:
Many scientists maintain that the earth is an oblate spheroid mass in orbit around a star. However, a vocal minority maintain that the earth is not round but rather flat, and that apparent evidence to the contrary in the form of alleged photography from space has in fact been staged on a set in California.
And, sadly, thanks to the view from nowhere, and dangerous lunatics like Jenny McCarthy (plus enablers like Oprah), the antivaxx crowd will likely insist that this is just another unfair attack on Wakefield by doctors who don’t want to admit the “truth”
All of the ppl I now know with Autistic children, which totals 17 including my cousin, they all noticed it hours after the MMR shot.
After my daughter was born I was concerned as any good parent should and went to the CDC to do research. There were three main links on the homepage at the time. The 1st link was an article about the wonders of vaccines, and the two that followed… links on how to report adverse effects from vaccines… yeah.
So I asked my doctor if we could get the MMR in three different shots. Well she looked at my wife and I like we had three heads, and said like I was some kind of A-hole, no we dont do that here. Well B, I dont spend money here anymore.
More research needs to be done to find the cause in the astronomical increase in Autism cases, and now no one will touch it. Yeah that’s the answer.
In addition one of my friends is a well known spinal surgeon and he also did not give his children the MMR shot.
Vaccines are still bad.
This vaccine hoax is amazing.
However, don’t let that get in the way of acknowledging that vaccines caused Glenn Beck to Rape and Murder a Young Girl in 1990.
See? Vaccines are still bad.
CBMHB
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Like Amanda Palmer liking TD?
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Autism cases are on the rise because of revised diagnostics.
http://autism.about.com/od/causesofautism/p/ontherise.htm
Simply put, “autism” has a much broader definition than it used to.
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“More research needs to be done to find the cause in the astronomical increase in Autism cases”
The definition of autism was changed to include more people. Surprisingly enough, right after that change the number of autism cases increased drastically. Who would’a thunk it.
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Thanks for the link, but I knew this.
“The definition of autism was changed to include more people.”
I dont think it was changed to include more ppl, the signs were broadened to include things that weren’t previously looked at.
http://www.autism-pdd.net/checklist.html
http://www.webmd.com/brain/autism/understanding-autism-symptoms
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or you could understand the increase is due to a broadening definition by doctors and interpretation from the DSM IV
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19218885
Re: Another resource
There was also a pretty interesting article in WIRED about the current discussion revolving around the DSM V.
http://www.wired.com/magazine/2010/12/ff_dsmv/
It is a very salient point that the DSM has a lot of clout over what is considered a mental illness or not despite the fact that the hard science behind those illnesses just recently began to develop.
Adam and Chronno,
Guess we were on the same thought line 😉
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All of the ppl I now know with Autistic children, which totals 17 including my cousin, they all noticed it hours after the MMR shot.
If you will excuse me for saying so (or even if you don’t), your 17 people you know are all idiots. There is no way to notice Autism that quickly after a shot without tests.
After my daughter was born I was concerned as any good parent should and went to the CDC to do research. There were three main links on the homepage at the time. The 1st link was an article about the wonders of vaccines, and the two that followed… links on how to report adverse effects from vaccines… yeah.
Yeah.. What’s your point? If there are 2 links for bad and 1 for good, it’s proof that it is bad?
So I asked my doctor if we could get the MMR in three different shots. Well she looked at my wife and I like we had three heads, and said like I was some kind of A-hole, no we dont do that here. Well B, I dont spend money here anymore.
Why would they do that there? What is your doctors name? He/She is top notch in my book.
More research needs to be done to find the cause in the astronomical increase in Autism cases, and now no one will touch it. Yeah that’s the answer.
Yeah. I agree with you that more research needs to be done for the reason.
In addition one of my friends is a well known spinal surgeon and he also did not give his children the MMR shot.
Ok.. Count him among the 17 you know who are idiots.
I leave you with this..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhk7-5eBCrs
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Your anecdotal opinion aside, there is absolutely no evidence connecting autism to the MMR vaccine, or any other vaccine.
More research needs to be done to find the cause in the astronomical increase in Autism cases
This is the only part of your statement I agree with. However I think said research should not only be medical: it needs to include a review of the way autism is determined and the potential for overdiagnosis (society has shown time and time again that, when it comes to conditions with psychological ramifications, we are not immune to diagnosis “fads”)
And before anyone gets defensive about that, I’m really not trying to suggest that autism is in any way fake – but it is somewhat ill-defined, and that always means a huge potential for overdiagnosis.
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I doubt the spinal surgeon is an *idiot* – however he is a spinal surgeon, not an immunologist or a psychologist or anything else that would give him insight into the link between autism and vaccines.
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A Spinal Surgeon also might have no interest in arguing a topic with someone who isn’t likely to listen.
This happens all the time. In the real world, I am often likely just to keep my mouth shut rather than waste my time trying to educate someone who isn’t going to listen anyway.
Okay, maybe I lied. I DO tend to waste my time rather than keep my mouth shut like I should. But it goes without saying that this Spinal Surgeon is smarter than I am.
I know it's a hot button subject, but
I can understand why people would want to know more about how someone can have ASD, but that doesn’t change one thing in particular.
Despite many studies, there is no scientific connection between vaccines and autism.
http://www.aap.org/immunization/families/faq/vaccinestudies.pdf
Those who are genuinely concerned with learning more about autism would stop beating a dead and discredited horse and look elsewhere, because not giving kids vaccinations won’t reduce the number of children with ASD. It will only increase the number of people who may get sick and even die from these diseases.
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“There is no way to notice Autism that quickly after a shot without tests.”
You OBVIOUSLY DONT have children. When you notice a bright alert child turned in to a dullard, yeah you notice.
“Yeah.. What’s your point? If there are 2 links for bad and 1 for good, it’s proof that it is bad?”
No, but it is proof these vaccines have negative effects in a small part of the population, and CDC knows this.
“Why would they do that there?” Separation of the MMR would be a win win for big pharma.
1.) More profit could be had as you could charge more for the three than just one.
2.) I am the consumer. If demand is there then supply it.
“He/She is top notch in my book.”
Your book sucks.
Penn & teller? Haaaaaaa. OK.
Judging by your comment you are in no position to assess someones id.
The real article
… is in the British Medical Journal (very widely respected serious peer-reviewed journal): http://www.bmj.com/content/342/bmj.c5347.full
Unlike the CNN article, it includes a full range of 124 citations and references.
(about the BMJ: http://resources.bmj.com/bmj/about-bmj )
Re: The real article
Further to the link the article, in case you think tl:dr, just read the first half a dozen paragraphs of the “Multiple discrepancies” section… it’s doozy!
Wakefield is clearly an idiot for thinking he wouldn’t eventually be found out on this one!
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“there is absolutely no evidence connecting autism to the MMR vaccine”
Just the hundreds of parents that noticed their children becoming dullards after the MMR. All of the ppl in my life noticed the same. Seems to be a pattern. Now with all this shit even if it is, it will never be looked into.
“it needs to include a review of the way autism is determined” – Absolutely.
There is a simple solution. Just give the MMR in three separate shots. If the Autism cases go down, given current standards for determining it do not change, then there’s your answer. Simple right? Big pharma would look like the good guys, and they could make more money from it.
Win win right?
Ahhh but just imagine the law suits that would follow.
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“there is absolutely no evidence connecting autism to the MMR vaccine”
Just the hundreds of parents that noticed their children becoming dullards after the MMR. All of the ppl in my life noticed the same. Seems to be a pattern. Now with all this shit even if it is, it will never be looked into.
“it needs to include a review of the way autism is determined” – Absolutely.
There is a simple solution. Just give the MMR in three separate shots. If the Autism cases go down, given current standards for determining it do not change, then there’s your answer. Simple right? Big pharma would look like the good guys, and they could make more money from it.
Win win right?
Ahhh but just imagine the law suits that would follow.
UK libel laws?
This was picked up by Bad Astronomer Phil Plait yesterday, and as people were pointing out over there, how will the UK’s lower burden libel laws come into this? Deer is pretty much calling out Wakefield as a fraud (which can’t be said often enough). How soon until the law is abused to stifle this report?
Unfortunately, this will have no effect on the antivaxxer epidemic.
I know it's a hot button subject, but
“It will only increase the number of people who may get sick and even die from these diseases.”
This needs to be said more. Refusing to vaccinate your child is putting both the life of your child and the lives of other people at risk.
Measles can kill.
An un-vaccinated person can still spread measles if exposed even if they do not get it themselves.
I know a baby who just minutes after a vaccine shot went into seizures. Then later it happened again after two more vaccines shot but the last time it caused brain damage. The child was no longer allowed to take vaccines but that damage was already done. It has made me think twice before taking vaccines and this was without knowing there was a study done.
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“or you could understand the increase is due to a broadening definition by doctors and interpretation from the DSM IV”
Wow in the 3 years I have been reading about this I never heard that. Wow ya know what, I was wrong the whole time. (He he he NOT.)
Thanks anyway?
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hmmm, when pills became a business, there was an increase of ritalin-popping kids. Cause and effect? That’s the problem with health industry being stimulated by money.
Vaccines work on a principle of weakening the virus/microorganism and introducing it to your immune system. In turn the immune system produces anti-bodies while not really being in danger of actual harm. While those anti-bodies are still swimming in your system, you have the capability to defend against these darn diseases.
(This was my very uninformed view of vaccinations. I believe it’s called general erudition.)
Now this is where we get to the problem – if vaccine makes you immune for 10 years, that’s 10 years of no moneymaking off of you.
Now if you could use some scare tactics to disuade people from vaccinations…hmm, I wonder what you could do.
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Just the hundreds of parents that noticed their children becoming dullards after the MMR
I’m afraid you clearly don’t understand epidemiology, statistics or the scientific method. There are countless common fallacies that can easily come into play in a situation like this, and while I feel for your situation and for the impact of the things you have observed, it’s simply not possible to draw such strong conclusions (or even assert the presence of strong patterns) solely on the basis of anecdotal evidence. Such an approach as been shown time and time again to be misleading.
There is a simple solution. Just give the MMR in three separate shots.
That’s not a simple solution, it’s a massive administrative gamble. Making sure that kids of all ages and economic statuses get properly vaccinated against these deadly diseases is not easy or cheap, and combining the vaccines has made it much more feasible.
Cases of MMR, and resulting deaths, have decreased steadily and drastically since the introduction of the combined vaccine. It is inarguably saving lives – quite a lot of them in fact – and that established knowledge has to take precedence over vague and scientifically unsupported allegations that it causes autism.
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I have four children.
Autism doesn’t make a “bright” child a “dullard”.
Anecdotal evidence based on subjective, non-reproducible, undocumented observations by untrained individuals part of a selected group (parents with autistic kids) is useless scientifically.
For example, I know a guy who in three accidents was told he would have been killed if he had been wearing a seatbelt. He won’t wear them as he now believes them dangerous.
Sorry, I am not buying your superstitious fear of vaccinations, nor do I buy my friend’s superstitious fear of seatbelts.
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“There is no way to notice Autism that quickly after a shot without tests.”
You OBVIOUSLY DONT have children. When you notice a bright alert child turned in to a dullard, yeah you notice.
Even doctors have an incredibly hard time confirming a diagnosis of autism. What makes you think you can diagnose it at a glance?
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“Just the hundreds of parents that noticed their children becoming dullards after the MMR. All of the ppl in my life noticed the same. Seems to be a pattern. Now with all this shit even if it is, it will never be looked into.”
Anecdotal observations are not proof. There’s a very good reason that double-blind medical studies are done. Expectations effect results, often quite strongly. If you expect to see a pattern, you’re going to find one, whether it is there or not.
I find it amusing and depressing that all the anti-vaccination nutjobs (and I will not apologize for calling you or anyone else that) claim that “big pharma” is suppressing their views for monetary reasons. The entire nutjob movement was started because Wakefield was paid by a lawyer suing for money, in addition Wakefield stood to profit because he was involved with a company that had a competing vaccine.
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“A Spinal Surgeon also might have no interest in arguing a topic with someone who isn’t likely to listen.”
Yeah that may be the case with J.Q. public, but this person I have known all my life, our families have been close for generations.
I’m not saying he said there was a link, but he also felt not like taking the risk with his child.
“But it goes without saying that this Spinal Surgeon is smarter than I am.”
I dunno, don’t think there is anything he learned that we couldn’t without hundred of thousands of dollars and 10+ years of school.
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Yeah that may be the case with J.Q. public, but this person I have known all my life, our families have been close for generations.
Yes, because I would totally base life&death decisions for my children on what my friend, the Spinal Surgeon says.
I’m not saying he said there was a link, but he also felt not like taking the risk with his child.
And with that he took a LOT of other, bigger risks. Well actually, his kids had to take that risk. You know, because he’s probably been vaccinated.
I dunno, don’t think there is anything he learned that we couldn’t without hundred of thousands of dollars and 10+ years of school.
No, you do not “dunno”. You are more likely to “DuNoCare” or even “DuNoButIgetPaidForTrollingHere!”
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Wow. I Read you post, looked at the top of it to see if it was Darryl, surprised it was not. We now NEED a button specifically for trolls, because they don’t deserve funny vote
And the trade-off is
I’ve buried a child and it had nothing to do with vaccinations or Autism or anything else like that. Apoligies for being crass, but my wife and I both agree that we will take a live Autistic child over one that died from not getting their vaccinations.
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I want to offer a quote from the Phil Plait blog post that a commenter linked below:
I am a parent, and I went through all the usual fears you get when you have a child. I can only imagine the suffering so many parents out there have undergone, and with tremendous heartache I?ve read many, many accounts of their feeling of desperation and hopelessness. But we cannot let our fear override what?s best for our children.
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Paul that right there tells me you have never been in contact with an autistic child or family. Maybe dullard was not the right choice of words. So what would you call it when one moment you kid is laughing playing learning to speak, read, and sings songs, then the next day all they do is stare off into space, and fear your touch wont talk, etc? What would YOU call it?
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What would YOU call it?
Drugged.
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“What makes you think you can diagnose it at a glance?”
In another child? Not likely without spending time with the child pre issue.
My own child. Here for you too:
what would you call it when one moment you kid is laughing playing learning to speak, read, and sings songs, then the next day all they do is stare off into space, and fear your touch wont talk, etc? What would YOU call it? Would YOU notice it with a child you spent 2+ years with? Dont have kids do you?
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One more thing about your simple solution: apparently they tried it in Japan. They have discontinued the MMR vaccine and instead administer 3 separate shots all the way back in 1993. They’ve been using the separate shots ever since.
Japanese autism cases have continued to rise steadily, with no observable change.
http://www.medicine.ox.ac.uk/bandolier/booth/Vaccines/noMMR.html
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what would you call it when one moment you kid is laughing playing learning to speak, read, and sings songs, then the next day all they do is stare off into space, and fear your touch wont talk, etc?
I’ve heard this story a dozen times and never, ever, ever seen it confirmed. It’s always just at the insistence of the parent.
I’m sorry, but your observations are biased when it comes to your own child. That’s not a bad thing (it’s a good one – damn straight you should favour your own kid!) but when it comes to making scientific determinations that will literally affect the entire population, your abstract observations of your own children are meaningless. Sorry, but that’s just the facts. I’m not trying to belittle your situation or your feelings, but if you look a little deeper into the history of scientific studies and their methodology, you will learn why it is so strict – a lot of the time when something seems obvious, there is in fact a devious little fallacy being committed that is extremely difficult to notice.
Oh, and the “don’t have kids” part? No, I don’t. And that doesn’t matter. You can try to wave that like a wand to render my opinions meaningless – and you’d be right if I was talking about any of the many more personal aspects of having a child – but when it comes to science and physiology and epidemiology, the fact that I don’t have kids is irrelevant. The fact that you think it’s so important is actually a pretty good example of just why your anecdotal data is untrustworthy: I am seeking scientific answers to what is actually happening, and those answers remain constant whether or not someone has kids.
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I bet you’d like Amanda Palmer
(snicker snicker)
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I bet you’d like Amanda Palmer
(snicker snicker)
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Vaccines are not *perfectly* safe. There are risks. But it is stupid and nearly impossible to run from every possible risk in this world.
Kids with compromised immune system diseases (particularly some mitochondrial conditions, if memory serves) are subject to horrible reactions to vaccines. However, most of these conditions are nearly always un-treatable and fatal within childhood (as the child is going to react to ANY infection the same way).
You just can’t avoid all risks. Millions could be spent on each child trying to insure that absolutely no condition exists in the child that might react to a vaccine. And after bankrupting the country, you might save a handful of kids from reactions to vaccines, while millions upon millions of kids are thrust into poverty to starve to pay for the process.
This is why we accept some amount of risk to vaccinate our children. Something bad COULD happen, but for 99.9999999 percent of the kids, it will all be just fine.
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“Now with all this shit even if it is, it will never be looked into.”
That’s just it. It has been looked into extensively for more than a decade and nobody has been able to produce any data the even correlates autism and vaccinations.
We’ve done the research. There is no connection. Lets put that money into research that might actually be of benefit to people with autism instead of wasting millions (billions?) of dollars on a dead end.
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“I’m afraid you clearly don’t understand epidemiology, statistics or the scientific method.”
Wow you gathered that from one paragraph. Ladies and gentleman meet the new Amazing Kreskin.
“That’s not a simple solution, it’s a massive administrative gamble.”
Straws are coming out. Thats utter BS.
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/recs/schedules/downloads/child/2010/10_0-6yrs-schedule-pr.pdf
11 vaccinations by the 4-6 range, and 2 more is an administrative nightmare? Yeah OK buddy.
“Making sure that kids of all ages and economic statuses get properly vaccinated against these deadly diseases is not easy or cheap, and combining the vaccines has made it much more feasible.”
Again 2 more?
“Making sure that kids of all ages and economic statuses get properly vaccinated” – What does that have to do with spit? That is a condition that exists if there were 1 vaccine or 20. You just like to try and sound smart.(not working)
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It’s interesting how you ignore the arguments you can’t possibly win. Others you attack with strawman and ad hom fallacies. Lovely.
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I’d hardly call her a “celebrity.”
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“Anecdotal observations are not proof.” – Never said it was. By my observations, I elected to wait to give my girl the MMR until the 4-6 span.
anti-vaccination nutjobs?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cfwdb9UvUag
Was it nuts to have live h1n1 shipped in vaccines?
“and I will not apologize for calling you or anyone else that” I know internet tough guy. Things would be much different if we were face to face.
“claim that “big pharma” is suppressing their views for monetary reasons.”
Never heard that.
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Things would be much different if we were face to face.
Sure it would – it would be your one face facing a lot of our faces. There’s a reason trolls live under the bridge – they like their anonymity. 😉
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“That’s just it. It has been looked into extensively for more than a decade and nobody has been able to produce any data the even correlates autism and vaccinations.”
Not looking to prove that result. I personally believe that there is another trigger.
“We’ve done the research. There is no connection. Lets put that money into research that might actually be of benefit to people with autism instead of wasting millions (billions?) of dollars on a dead end.” – Absolutely agree.
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Paul it is obvious you dont have children, but if that .0000001 is yours…. You’ll see someday if you can find a partner to procreate with.
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I find it interesting that you obsess over your supposition that it wouldn’t actually be a big deal (and I admit I am making certain assumptions as well in my argument, and perhaps am not entirely accurate, although the massive correlation between the introduction of the MMR vaccine and the drop in disease cases would seem to suggest I’m right) – but you completely fail to respond to the link I posted just above, showing that your proposal has been tried in Japan with absolutely no results whatsoever.
What do you say to that? They’ve been using separate vaccines since 1993, and their cases of autism continue to rise.
Your genetics are going to turn your kids into trolling dullards, not the vaccinations.
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If a diagnosis is changed to include more signs that are needed to identify those cases that were missed without those signs, how does that not increase the number of people diagnosed with the condition.
I would also like to remind you, while scientists are once again proving there is no link between vaccinations and autism they can’t look into the actual cause. The continued belief in this myth takes money and effort away from finding an actual solution.
What I would like to see is the correlation between high iron infant formula, high iron blood levels, colic and autism in infants.
I’m surprised that no one has even thought of that yet.
Are you feeding your kid high iron formula? Do they barf a lot and scream all the time?
Get them tested for blood iron levels. ASAP. They didn’t do that to my middle one, and when my youngest one started the same thing, just happened to be a time when we took them in to get WIC, that tests for iron levels in the blood. Come to find out, they both had too high levels.
Moved em to low iron formula, and the colic stopped, and the barfing stopped. The youngest one, who had only been on the high iron formula for a month, came out just fine. The one that had been on the high iron formula for many, many months…autism….
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and by the way, your “just 2 more” has to be multiplied by several million kids – so it’s actually “just several million more” vaccines that need to be administered. Yes, I know there are already other vaccines they need, but it’s quite clear that keeping the overall number of necessary vaccines down is going to make administering them easier and less expensive.
If the MMR vaccine were actually demonstrated to be dangerous, and it was shown that splitting it up solves that problem, then I would absolutely support it. But we don’t need to go adding new hurdles to children’s health just because we want to see what happens – scientific studies don’t take place on a whole goddamn country. Imagine the things that could go wrong! That’s exactly why we test and study first before rolling out major treatment changes to millions of people.
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You’ll see someday if you can find a partner to procreate with.
Now you’re just slinging mud, rather than participating in a constructive discussion. You’re pathetic. I’m sorry for your experiences with your child but, frankly, they do not make you an automatic expert or the god-of-all-things-children.
All of the kids that were fine until vaccinated can’t be ignored.
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“Oh, and the “don’t have kids” part? No, I don’t. And that doesn’t matter.”
Let me tell you something Marcus. When ppl used to tell me that oh I love my kid so much you will never understand how they effect you, its so wonderful. I used to think yeah right buttmunch. Having my little girl I found out, much to my dismay, its all true. Now I know for a fact as a guy without children, you are saying to yourself yeah WNH you are full of shit, and 3 years ago I would have been right there with you. I hope you get to understand one day.
And that doesn’t matter? Matters more than you can understand right now.
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All of the kids that died because they weren’t vaccinated can’t be ignored.
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I have kids. Some days they’re talkative and playful. Other days they’re an absolute handful and seemingly downright evil. Still other days they’re reserved and quiet and want to be left alone. They are, after all, human beings; not robots.
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I am not disputing the impact of children on a person’s life. In fact, unlike you, I have never thought “yeah right” when people tell me about the transformative power of their children (“yeah right buttmunch?” harsh man – your friends must have thought you were a jackass) – in fact I’ve always taken that claim at face value, because it sounds natural and right to me, and I look forward to the day that I (might) learn about it for myself.
What I am disputing is your claim that children impact a person’s ability to understand scientific reasoning. They don’t.
If it is your position that only people who have kids can discuss the issue of a link between MMR and autism, then I stand by my earlier assertion that you don’t know a damn thing about science, and I think you are the one who has nothing to contribute to this conversation.
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I’m sure they were also fine before they rode in a car, but we aren’t trying to keep kids out of cars.
In each and every case of autism the child was recently in a car before being diagnosed.
The dramatic rise in autism certainly seems to be accompanied by the dramatic rise in automobiles. I’m certain that cars cause autism. We should now spend millions of dollars researching this.
(this is actually less absurd than the vaccination argument as, to my knowledge, there has not been over a decade of research put towards a link between cars and autism)
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So first he “OBVIOUSLY” doesn’t have children – but whoops, you were wrong about that! – so now he must obviously have just never met an autistic child. You don’t learn from your own mistakes, do you?
Is your entire argument going to be based on the insistence that you are the only one here who understands the issues, even though you have no reason to believe that and nothing to back it up?
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“Oh, and the “don’t have kids” part? No, I don’t. And that doesn’t matter.”
(Bunch of rambling bullshit apropos to nothing about how much having kids is great deleted)
You are a liar and a troll, and that post just concretes it. You know 17 kids and all they had obvious signs of it right after the MMR vaccine? What a hunch of bullshit. Go away loser.
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Sorry for not responding quick enough for you(not) some ppl have jobs they are at.
OH. Ok when it fits your argument, it is because of the way they define it. Hmmm. So the increase in Japan has nothing to do with the way they defined it? That only works for you and your argument?
http://childhealthsafety.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/080603_terada_graph.jpg
And actually if you look at this chart. autism dropped from 94-95.
Stop feeding the troll
@Marcus, you have thoroughly proven that WeNeedHelp is not in the same intellectual league as you. Well, that might be a little overboard — but clearly they are not a rational thinker in this matter. Just move on.
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“and by the way, your “just 2 more” has to be multiplied by several million kids – so it’s actually “just several million more”” – Your really grasping now. OK ill play your silly game. millions more families will have to keep track of 2 additional vaccines. Ohhhhhhh sooooo difficult. Gimme a break. Billions of Chinese have no problem. Err.
Less expensive? MMR is $700 a shot. Not bad huh?
“But we don’t need to go adding new hurdles”
Marcus, do you work for Faux news? You shoud.
“just because we want to see what happens”
But its OK to let these poor kids become Autistic? Your a tool, and Im done.
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We’ve done the research. Really?
http://childhealthsafety.wordpress.com/2009/06/03/japvaxautism/#000_Top_of_Page
http://childhealthsafety.wordpress.com/2009/01/13/secret-british-mmr-vaccine-files-forced-open-by-legal-action/#US_Developments
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“Now you’re just slinging mud” – No it was not meant in a bad way, and i’m sorry if it came across that way.
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How come in every comment you feel the need to slip in a dig implying that the rest of us are children who just don’t get it? Incidentally I am also at work, and I am not objecting to your speed, but your choice to reply to one comment and not the one immediately below it which I still posted half an hour before your reply.
And I completely agree that the increase has to do with the way they define it. Nonetheless, I think the total lack of any statistical correlation between the separate vaccines and autism rates is rather damning.
And you are right, there was a small drop in 94-95 – there was also a big spike just before that (but still after the vaccine use had been declining for years) – and the increase in autism has since resumed according to the best available data I can find at the moment.
Finding a single data point that supports your position isn’t very meaningful when there has been TONNES of statistical analysis done on WAY more data, all of which has come up negative.
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“I’m sorry for your experiences with your child “
No need to be sorry. She is 2.5 and can read a great deal, recites the whole alphabet, write letters up to H, counts to 20, knows more songs than we can keep track of. She is a bright beautiful little girl. No need to be sorry.
god-of-all-things-children? Nah, just an extremely proud and protective father, and any advice I offer for free is from that point of view. We all talk about making this a better place. Know where to start? With the way you raise your kids.
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I really just meant it in a some ppl never find anyone. It did come off a bit snippy and I apologize for that.
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“If a diagnosis is changed to include more signs that are needed to identify those cases that were missed without those signs, how does that not increase the number of people diagnosed with the condition.”
You said:
The definition of autism was changed to include more people.
Cause: Add more symptoms
Effect: Classifies more individuals.
they can’t look into the actual cause?
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they all noticed it hours after the MMR shot.
the next day all they do is stare off into space
So was it the next day or hours? Your story changes.
You OBVIOUSLY DONT have children. When you notice a bright alert child turned in to a dullard, yeah you notice.
I have a wonderful 8 year old who has been diagnosed with high functioning Autism.
I’m not arguing the change.. Just the cause. Do you have scientific proof that between the time he got the shot to when they noticed the change was because if the medicine?
Penn & teller? Haaaaaaa. OK.
While they aren’t doctors, they took your side on the argument. *IF* it does this, it protects against so much more. Would you rather have them get Polio?
“Why would they do that there?” Separation of the MMR would be a win win for big pharma.
So wouldn’t it make sense, if the CDC were working for big pharma, for them not to post the “It’s ok” link?
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“I have never thought “yeah right” when people tell me about the transformative power of their children”
It seemed unbelievable to me that someone could be so changed by a little person. I was soo wrong.
“yeah right buttmunch?” – Was what I said to myself.
“your friends must have thought you were a jackass”
NO they know I am an asshole, but love me anyway.
“I look forward to the day that I (might) learn about it for myself.”
Me too. Best thing to happen ever.
“What I am disputing is your claim that children impact a person’s ability to understand scientific reasoning. “
My claim? Never stated that.
“If it is your position that only people who have kids can discuss the issue of a link between MMR and autism”
No, but your decision to have a hypothetical child immunized is a lot different when they are crying in your hands. The decision does not become so clear cut.
“I stand by my earlier assertion that you don’t know a damn thing about science, and I think you are the one who has nothing to contribute to this conversation.”
That’s your opinion and you are entitled to that.
Have a good night Marcus. Its quitting time for me. “See” ya tomorrow.
And the trade-off is
I’m sorry for your loss, but what you said above is simply brilliant and sums it up nicely.
The view from nowhere
Absolutely. It doesn?t take a physics expert to realize that rockets will never work in space, After all, there?s nothing to push against!
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I’m sorry, but you need to read up on self-fulfilling prophecies. I have an ASD (as they are classified now – I have severe allergenic ADHD). So does my nephew. We developed near identically.
And 17 autistic children in one family? And it’s ALL down to MMR? That sounds like something different is at work. Something like GENETICS.
So stop being a goddamned apologist for a charlatan, and get off your goddamned high-horse.
And I DO have a child with ADD.
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And 17 autistic children in one family?
Where did that come from?
Its all true vaccinations killed my father and raped my mother.
amidoinitrite guise? 😀
Including More People
There?s your cause, right there in front of your nose.
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No, but your decision to have a hypothetical child immunized is a lot different when they are crying in your hands. The decision does not become so clear cut.
Funny, I had no idea we were talking about individual parents decisions. As far as I knew, we were talking about your call for more research and for an experiment with splitting up the vaccines, and what certainly seems to be your general overall position that a connection between MMR and ASD is likely.
I would never presume to tell an individual parent what they should do with their own child. I am not questioning your decisions or your observations of your daughter at all – I’m merely saying that they are irrelevant to the larger scientific question.
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Aww, you were so polite below, then I saw this. But that’s fair, I’m getting pretty frustrated too.
Do you really think it’s wise to conduct experiments at the national scale? You want to split the vaccines to see if there is a correlation to autism – but the fact is that a lot of well-designed and -controlled clinical studies have already been conducted that show there is no correlation.
We’re not talking about “letting” kids become autistic – you make it sound as if we know how to stop it and we just aren’t doing it. You are proposing large-scale change to our vaccination system for children (which we know for certain is saving a lot of lives) even though you have no reason to believe that change would be effective. That’s medically and socially irresponsible.
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“Aww, you were so polite below, then I saw this.” Politeness went out the door when I realized:
“I’ve heard this story a dozen times and never, ever, ever seen it confirmed.”
So because the great (in your own mind) Marcus Carab has never seen it, it cant be. I guess when great numbers of ppl were describing symptoms of the plague, just because you didnt see it it did not exist as well. And another fucking thing, I dont know the scientific process? Neither do you. When you have hundreds if not thousands of parents describing the same thing its called symptoms. But just because the great Marcus Carab has never even been around children with Autism, or watched a kid regress into a dullard, it is just the imagination of these parents. Mr. Crab, you are nothing but a well spoken troll.
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hehe, someone struck a nerve. Let me be more precise – Marcus’ arguments are hard to refute so enough with reason and rationality; this just got personal! :>
Stop feeding the troll
I don’t think so at all. He seems perfectly intelligent and quite rational, I just happen to believe he’s very wrong and possibly a little biased on this issue. I’ve been enjoying our conversation (even if it is getting a little heated around the edges)
If you think HE’S a troll, you gotta check out the techdirt comments more often… sometimes it’s like the underside of a bridge in here
anecdotal observation is not scientific proof
but but but… I saw 17 of them!
The earth is flat. Need proof? I saw it from above.
No fucking clue about the scientific method but vaccines cause autism. Sure.
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I do have children. But why exactly would I put my child at a .001 risk of suffering or even dying horribly from a childhood disease to avoid a .00000001 percent risk (or even less) that they might have a reaction to a vaccine?
The problem here ISN’T that I don’t have kids (I have four) but that I also took courses in Statistics and Math.
You can’t do ANYTHING without risk. I have already “won the lottery” by having a young adult cancer hardly anyone gets, and almost nobody after 35 years of age, and I got it at 45. Then for five years I suffered with neurological issues that kept progressing until I recently was diagnosed with a strange form of anemia that responds to treatment but doesn’t show up in my blood work.
So yes it stinks to be the one that gets the “almost nobody ever gets it” disease. But you can’t make decisions by worrying about the tiny, tiny, tiny far to the outside risks when there are big, measurable, and proven risks you need to avoid.
Quit listening to the noise. Look at the studies. Populations of kids who get vaccines have the same rates of autism as those that don’t. That could not be true if vaccines were the cause of autism.
Lastly, my oldest does have Asperger’s Syndrome, and did have a mild reaction to her first vaccine. But there was no change in behavior prior to or after vaccination, and in fact had demonstrated certain unusual behaviors (like staring at large shapes or shadows, and preferring a wind up swing to being rocked) from the beginning. And my oldest was 8 years old before being diagnosed.
My other three children were very different, and only after having other kids did we realize how unusual some of the behaviors of my oldest were.
I could beat myself up over the condition of my oldest, but in fact I feel doing so would be a ridiculous waste of energy. I knew all my kids would be exposed to other kids and even kids that were not vaccinated. So all of them were, and all of them have been healthy, good kids. My oldest is a wonderful and talented person who is going to do well in life. A life they might not have had in a world without vaccines.
I know it's a hot button subject, but
it already has increased the number of children’s deaths by preventable diseases. sometimes i wonder if people like jenny mccarthy get off on the idea that theyre killing kids.
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Well, see, if you can read a post, it isn’t Darryl’s. Problem solved.
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Sure they can, until someone actually does a proper scientific and/or statistical analysis of those cases.
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None of the studies of Autism and Vaccines over the last 10 years have ignored kids that were “fine until vaccinated”. That would be the point.
The problem is that regardless of whether you vaccinate a child or don’t vaccinate a child, the same percentages of kids in both groups end up with Autism.
Correlation does not prove Causation
http://xkcd.com/552/
But... What about the herd?
The biggest problem with making the decision to NOT vaccinate is that it doesn’t just put *your* child at risk, but it puts me, my parents, and my children at risk. It is a weakening of the herd’s immunities – not just your child’s.
As the father of three children, with a father that is a PhD in biology, a lawyer mother that ultimately died from cancer, a mother-in-law that is an oncology nurse, and a sister-in-law that has an autistic child that she accredits to vaccination… Believe me, there was lots of debate and discussion about what to do when it came to vaccination – not just between my wife and I, but with the rest of my family. My wife and I chose, based on those discussions, that *we* would put *our* child at risk for the sake of your children, our herd.
I watched my children grow up. I watched my nephew grow up. There were a number of significant changes that took place during the time of my nephew’s life when he was diagnosed as “autistic”. A divorce, vaccinations, preschool changes, greater social interaction with peers, blah blah blah. Maybe any or some or all of those things triggered a change, maybe not. He’s “high functioning”, but he’s “autistic”. She blames vaccines. I’d say he’s different than most kids, but hell, I grew up with kids like him, and they weren’t labelled “autistic”. They got tags like “slow learners”, and stayed back grades. Maybe they finished high school. Some didn’t. As my grandfather always said, “the world needs ditch diggers, too.” Many would take that as a derogatory statement. The way it is meant is that we can’t all be rock stars, or doctors, or receptionists. Some of us don’t have the certain skill sets. Does that make us “autistic”? Crikey, I would likely be labelled autistic these days – there’s certainly skill sets I’m missing.
I started this really about herd immunity. I don’t need to link to articles, simply because a google of “herd immunity” will get you just about everything you need to know. A key thing to note when looking through the returns though is knowing the source of what you’re reading. If the person isn’t a doctor, and cherry picks sound bites without linking to support their argument, I’d likely not trust them.
All I ask is that you put your neighbors (the many) ahead of your child (the few) for the sake of humanity. But maybe that’s the problem these days… We only care about ourselves.
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I was attempting to follow you argument but this shows that you not only have children but seem to be one as well.
It is clear that you don’t even begin to understand science, medicine, organization and administration, or any other subject on a meaningful level.
The MMR has saved millions of live around the world over the last several decades and yet you casually dismiss that fact because YOU PERSONALLY believe that is MAY be linked to autism. That is possibly the most irresponsible opinion I’ve ever seen.
You talk about separating the shots as though it is no big deal but that clearly shows that you have no experience or education as it relates to administering any type of large scale program. You do know that only 67% of children living in poverty received the vaccine in the last decade right? Compared with 95% of the overall population.
I’m searching for words to describe how much you and your attitude disgust me, your willful ignorance, your nasty attitude, and your obviously made up stories about 17 autistic children …
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Perhaps you could link to a study or something relevant instead of a wordpress blog with such an obvious agenda?
So we're all in agreement
This guy was getting paid for incriminating results of a vaccine and that getting children vaccinated is just the intelligent thing to do.
weneedhelp needs to be humanely euthanized
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“Correlation does not prove Causation”. Try telling that to the vaccine manufactures. Correlation and causation is what they point to when claiming vaccines save lives.
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Yes, correlation and causation. Mind the AND word. Vaccine manufactures aren’t saying that correlation proves causation, do they? 🙂
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It is not “fear” to decline to vaccinate. It is common sense. Yes, common sense not to inject a bunch of neurotoxins into a child. Autism when you chemically attack a developing brain? Is that hard to put together?
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No, common sense is to believe scientists, that know a lot more than you do about the issue.
And not exposing kids to outside sources of disease doesn’t really prepare their body for later problems in life, does it? For example, chickenpox. It’s a virus. You intentionaly infect your child with it so he gets that pesky immunity. Why? Because if you don’t, here’s a quote from wikipedia: “Typically, the disease is more severe in adults.”
Intentionaly infect your child? Yes, form of vaccination.
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“Double blind” is a perfect description of your attitude, and that of others who… blindly… drink the Kool-aid of the PMG (Pharmaco-medical-governmental) Complex.
Want some sense? Take a ride on my blog, http://www.correctingthecause.blogspot.com
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Chiropractor? LOL LOL LOL LOL. Yeah ok buddy.
Dr Wakefield a fraud?
The line, “Dr Wakefield almost certainly a fraud?” What an arrogant joke! What comes out of the medical establishment, especially in the realm of vaccinations, is almost certainly a fraud.
The Pharmaceutical-Medical-Governmental Complex will defend vaccination to the death, for vaccines are the “holy water” of Medicine.
kinda shocked
this thread has not attracted the “anti-vaxxers”.