James Murdoch Lectures On Copyright, But Still Seems Confused

from the copyright-is-designed-to-protect-james-murdoch dept

A few months back, we noted that James Murdoch had a rather funny view of copyright -- and, by funny, we meant "wrong." He pulled out the common refrain of someone who doesn't actually understand the issue at all, claiming that infringement is no different than stealing a physical good, and that copyright should be treated exactly like owning a house. I'm not sure how such a total misunderstanding of copyright law resulted in him being asked to address University College London's new Centre for Digital Humanities on the anniversary of the Statute of Anne (the first copyright law), but apparently it did, as many, many of you sent in.

Paid Content has the full transcript, and I'll say that while he still gets a lot wrong, it becomes clear that he's at least aware of views on the other side -- though, he takes many of those views out of context or totally misrepresents them to knock down strawmen. Apparently, he's unfamiliar with the idea of (a) properly applying liability, (b) due process, or (c) privacy. But, you know... maybe he'll learn those next. There are some serious problems throughout his speech, most of which have to do with his confusion on basic economics, his insistence that price and value are the same thing and that there's such a thing as a "fair price."

Let's highlight some key points:
I make these remarks at a time of great debate about the future of journalism. Many voices predict its demise as it goes through a transition from being a medium that is predominantly physical to one that is predominantly digital. It is in this context of real consequence that The Times and The Sunday Times will soon become among the first papers in the world to assert a fair value for their online editions.
I love the wording here: "assert a fair value." As if implying that everyone else in the business is not asserting a fair value. But, again, we can see what the market thinks of his notion of "fair value," but I warn him that the market tends to price things not on "fair value" (a made up concept) but on supply and demand. I'd like to see how his notion of "fair value" stands up to the notion of "widespread free competition."
I want also to try to put into context the prevailing consensus about the digital world and the way in which it works -- the consensus that the free flow of information not only can, but must, literally, be free.
This is a strawman. Cory Doctorow recently wrote up a wonderful piece about how the only people who seem to quote, "information wants to be free" are those setting up a strawman they're trying to knock down. Even the original quote, from Stewart Brand, wasn't just "information wants to be free." The context was much more involved and explained why information is both free and has tremendous value. So Murdoch is setting up a total strawman to knock down, because most people aren't claiming "information wants to be free." Information doesn't want anything. What we're saying is that the market has already priced certain kinds of information... and they're pricing it based on supply and demand. But, that's harder to counter, so Murdoch has to pretend there are people out there insisting that information "wants" to be free.
I want to inquire -- as dispassionately and factually as I can -- into what drives that consensus ... because I believe that the digital consensus is flawed. Although expressed in terms of high principle and morality, it is more revealing to study the economics of the thing -- to find out what's really going on.
There is no consensus. You took a quote out of context and assigned it to a group of people who didn't make it. That you find it flawed is fine. Because it is. But you're not arguing the point that people are actually making, you're arguing against a strawman.

But, yes, it is much more revealing to study the economics of thing. Let's look at the economics of supply and demand, and what happens in a market where supply is infinite, competition is much higher than before -- and, most importantly, distribution, promotion and content creation costs plummet. Or are those not the economics you wish to discuss?
I want to show you that restoring the balance between creators and the means of distribution would be a huge spur to creative growth ... and that an approach based on experience -- on a proven approach to protecting creative vision -- is the key to a thriving creative sector and a rich and continuing tradition of these digital humanities.
Forgive me. "Restore" the balance to copyright? In the last 300 years, copyright has expanded in one direction and one direction only: towards greater and greater and greater levels of protectionism for copyright holders, and against the public and the public domain. And, when I read "an approach based on experience," I hear "please set up barriers to block out competition so I can have my old business model back." Murdoch is basically saying, "stomp out innovation, 'cause I don't know how to deal with it."
First, it has a firm belief that the old rules relating to physical things like books and music are simply irrelevant to the digital world, so there is no point in looking back.
No. No one has said the old rules relating to physical things are "irrelevant." In fact, we're arguing that they're very, very relevant. The issue is that the "rules" include supply and demand, and things like marginal cost. You're the one trying to pretend those old rules shouldn't apply in the digital world.
As many people put it, we have a new paradigm: we all own everything, so no-one owns anything. The internet -- and everything on it, it is said -- wants to be free.
Please point to a single person who has made this "we all own everything, so no-one owns anything" argument. We'll be waiting. This is a false call to smear people who actually understand the economics of digital goods as "socialists." But it's wrong. It's not about owning everything or that no one owns anything. In fact, quite the opposite. It's about noting that when supply is abundant, or infinite, you can make more of anything at no cost, and thus individuals actually can own more.
Second, digital networks are depicted as forces of nature. The idea that anyone might try to shape the future, to influence events, to innovate with an outcome, is seen as foolish -- or indeed out-of-touch.
No, not digital networks. But basic economics.
You can see why this vision appeals. It feels radical and new.
Well, since you're describing a vision that almost no one subscribes to, I don't see it actually appealing to people. But if you're talking about those who discuss the economics of information, the reason it appeals to us has nothing to do with it being "radical and new." It appeals to us because it's right.
Yet there are some immediate concerns. We cannot just assume that greater connectivity is a force for good in and of itself. It might be easy to assert that if everyone, everywhere, can access anything with a browser and a broadband connection, then our society -- all societies -- are going to be wiser, better informed and more democratic.
Another strawman, and notice how he shifts the topic a little. There are two separate arguments here: one about the economics of content, and the other about the impact of the free flow of information on democracy. Those are two different things. There certainly is some overlap in people who talk about both of those things, but many people feel strongly about one, but not the other. But, if you're going to make up people to tear down, you might as well lump different groups together and assume they're all the same.
We certainly have easier, faster, cheaper ways to share with each other. But we have to face the fact that a huge amount of the capacity now available is used to distribute things without the permission of their creators, let alone any payment to them. In the first quarter of this year alone, there were 190 million downloads of Hollywood content in just 20 countries. You can add to that substantial illegal web streaming, where viewers watch without downloading. This is not the stuff of a few students outwitting the system. It is deliberate and on an industrial scale.
Yes, people share lots of unauthorized files on the internet. And so?
I am struck by the number of commentators who switch seamlessly from one strongly moral argument in favour of free content as being good for society: to another which seems to me to be completely immoral: saying that we can't stop people distributing content without permission, so we may as well give everyone the right to do so.
Who, exactly, is making that argument? According to Murdoch, it's basically everyone in every other part of the industry. Google and the Consumer Electronics Association are really the instigators. He doesn't name them by name, but he makes it pretty clear. But, then, of course there are also libraries (libraries!) seeking to undermine his business. And, of course, the government. That darn BBC. It's too good, apparently.
Take the search business. It depends on an ability to index and search other people's material, and present the results of those searches to its users surrounded by advertising. Search is a highly profitable business, because the raw material presented to customers can be indexed at essentially zero incremental cost. Therefore, information that might only be searched or indexed with a fair price paid to the producer undermines that model.
What is this "fair price" you speak of? A fair price to point people to your business? Do you charge people to tell their friends where your store is? Of course not. You want people pointing your business out to others. It's called free advertising, and that's what search engines provide. It's why there's an entire industry called "search engine optimization."
What is often absent from the public's understanding and commentators' calculation, is that without investment in original content in the first place, there will be little to index, search, and aggregate.
And... here we go with yet another strawman. No one denies that investment in original content is needed. What Murdoch is ignoring -- either on purpose or through ignorance -- is that we believe there are many other business models, often better business models, that don't require locking stuff down and charging people to advertise your business. This is a huge myth that folks like Murdoch like to claim: without stronger copyright laws there are no business models. Perhaps Murdoch can't think of those business models, but plenty of others seem to have no problem.

I'm not going to quote the next bit, but he goes on to blame pretty much every other industry, and then actually does accurately set up what my response would be:
'So what?' you might say. That's competition. And in large part I would agree with you.
Except, it turns out that "large part" of agreement, isn't so large, because he immediately qualifies it down to nothing.
But I would urge you to bear two things in mind.

First, cultural content has a social importance different from, say, the automobile or energy markets, and beyond its economic contribution -- because it is the sphere of ideas, imagination, accountability and communication.
You see, says young Murdoch, my industry is more special than any of those other industries. My industry deserves protectionist policies that shrink the market and allow me to thrive with less competition.
Yet journalism -- print and digital -- faces trouble. In the last year in the U.S. alone, 109 newspapers shut down or stopped publishing a print edition, leaving many cities without a single paper.

The reasons are not hard to understand. Search companies and aggregators skim content from a thousand sources, sell it to clients, scoop up advertising revenues and put little or nothing back into professional newsgathering.
This is so wrong it's laughable. Search engines and aggregators advertise your content and send you more traffic for free. They're not taking away your ad revenue. At all.
Second, many of the pressures on content -- journalism included -- are caused by governments. Frankly, states provide a level of subsidised news that is: incredibly high; comprehensive; and well funded.
Okay, so let me get this straight. We're discussing the decline of the journalism industry and your first two culprits are Google and the BBC? You leave out things like the fact that newspapers survived by basically having near-monopolies for many years, and now they have competition from many more sources? You leave out the fact that newspapers never made money from subscription fees, but always from advertising, and the advertising market has become more diverse and more difficult for newspapers to master? You leave out the fact that the newspapers took on ridiculous debt loads because of bad management decisions, and most of the newspapers that have shut down did so due to inability to pay back debt? I think your list needs to be restructured.

He then goes on to appeal to the history of The Statute of Anne, not recognizing that it was a protectionist policy for printers, not unlike protectionist policies for other monopolies in the United Kingdom. Yet, less than a century later, Adam Smith explained why such protectionism actually shrunk markets, and we started to move away from gov't granted monopolies towards a free market. Not surprisingly, Murdoch leaves out that part of the history.

He moves on to talk about the movie business, with this nugget:
The workprint of one film, Wolverine, was stolen and posted on the internet and then downloaded 14 million times prior to theatrical release. It has now been downloaded more than 25 million times -- with five European countries accounting for much of the total. This shows that great damage can be done at lightning speed.
Wait, what damage? Wolverine made a ton of money and a comparison with other movies that had a lot of similarities and had much better reviews showed that Wolverine actually made a lot more money than those other, similar films. In other words, there's no evidence, whatsoever, that there was any damage at all. If anything, it suggests (though, does not prove) that the massive press coverage about the leak may have made more people interested in the movie.
The principles set out in the Statute of Anne represented a major step forward in the free flow of ideas.

It recognised that piracy would have led to a long-term decline in the distribution of books.
Except that this is wrong. As many studies have shown, as "piracy" has increased in both the music and movie business, so has output of music and movies. As for book piracy, the common example is Charles Dickens' complaints about how US law actually ignored UK copyrights for many years. But it actually boosted Dickens' reputation in America that magazines published his works, and his books and his own public lecture tours did quite well in the US. And, even though they didn't need to, US publishers paid him royalties, because there were benefits to doing so. When Dickens came to the US, despite his complaints about "piracy" of his books, he did hundreds of paid readings that brought in a lot of money. Not bad for someone who's career was being "destroyed." So why is Murdoch making assertions not supported by the facts? Are the facts too inconvenient?
This is a significant sector. In 2008 it represented some 7% of the total wealth created annually in the European Union -- some £743.38 (£743.38 (£743.38 (€860))) billion -- and provided some 14 million people with jobs. Yet billions annually are lost to piracy and a cumulative total not far short of 200,000 jobs have already gone.
These numbers are made up. They're from the same bogus numbers that assume that any business that touches on copyright (furniture? copyright!) only exists because of copyright.
Do not be misled by claims of high principle in this debate. When someone tells you content wants to be free, what you should hear is 'I want your content for free' -- and that is not the same thing at all.
Sure, if you want to close off all logic and reason. Perhaps, first, after finding these mythical beasts who shout "all content wants to be free," you should study the basic economics of information, and look for smarter business models.
We must rediscover something that should be very obvious: the importance of placing a proper value on creative endeavour.
Aha. No longer "fair value," but "proper value." But, here's the thing: value is not the same thing as price. If something is valuable, people will buy it only if the price is lower than that value. But, of course, he's not really talking about value. He's talking about price, and making sure that the market doesn't set the price. What "the importance of placing a proper value on creative endeavour" really means is "the government needs to help me set a higher price than the market would." It's a call for protectionism.
Just look at the newspaper business. For years, many newspapers have put no value at all on the work they place online.
Wrong. They put no price on it. I imagine they value it quite a lot. Of course, the same is true of most newspapers. Most newspapers, even the ones in Murdoch's own stable, charge less for a subscription than the printing and delivery costs. By Murdoch's own claim, he does not value his own newspapers. But, of course, that's wrong, and it's disingenuous as well. We all know (though Murdoch totally ignores) that the reason newspapers make money is because of advertising. The customers are the advertisers, and I imagine the newspapers have put quite a lot of value on that ad space.
In contrast, at News International here in the UK, we are proud of the quality of our journalism and the contribution we make to life around the country, and indeed for our readers around the world.
How obnoxious. Because others have a better business model than you, it means they don't care about the quality of their journalism? Does he really think this convinces anyone?
Shouldn't we welcome a revolution in journalism that answers the needs of readers -- and provides the means for sustained further investment? Without some simple common sense -- like this -- the alternative we face is a grim one: to have news that is produced only by the wealthy, the amateur, or the government.
Yes, of course, we should welcome a revolution that answers the needs of readers. But you are suggesting the only way to do that is with a paywall. And when your paywall fails, then where will you be? And, must I point out the irony of James Murdoch, one of the wealthiest people around, who helps run a company that contains many properties for generating amateur content, and is giving a talk in which he's asking for more government protection, complaining that if he doesn't get it, journalism will only come from the wealthy, the amateur or the government? And that he makes that claim with not a shred of evidence?
Asserting a fair value for digital journalism is a starting point. I don't think we will be alone in taking this kind of action. And although these steps have provoked some alarmist comment, no-one who really cares about the humanities of tomorrow should be either shocked or affronted by what we are doing.
Ah, now we're back to "fair value" rather than "proper value." And, no, you won't be alone. But, the thing is, while others may follow you down that road, most won't. And so you'll have free competition, providing content equally good to that for which you're trying to charge. How is that going to work out? I'm not "alarmed" at your company making a move destined to fail. I'm just wondering how you can't see what's going to happen.
Can we agree that preserving and rewarding creativity is in the long-term interest of our society?
No one would disagree with that. They only disagree with the method. Relying on gov't granted monopolies and bad business models is the opposite of preserving and rewarding creativity.
This problem will not be solved by the creative sector alone. Governments should enforce basic property rights -- even in this digital environment. Some have started. In some quarters this has caused alarm. But what is really alarming is that it is controversial at all to shut down vast pirate sites or disconnect repeat offenders who have no regard for creators' rights.
What is alarming is the lack of due process. What is alarming is the lack of privacy rights. What is alarming is the disproportionate response to an infraction that you can't even prove cost you any money. What is alarming is your belief that the internet is just for your business. What is alarming is your unwillingness to adapt to a changing market. What is alarming is your calling to the government to protect your business model. All of that is quite alarming. That people are worried about these things? No, that's not alarming.
According to a detailed study by Tera Consultants, if we continue down the path we're on, piracy could inflict a cumulative 1.2 million job losses in the European Union by 2015.
No, not a detailed study at all. The "study" by Tera Consultants was paid for by the industries looking to use it to support their demands for greater gov't protectionism of their business and was full of easily debunked false assumptions -- such as the claim that there is a correlation between internet traffic and lost jobs. Nowhere does it count the jobs aided by cheaper creation, distribution and promotion.
Is it, moreover, unreasonable to suggest that companies that make a living out of indexing and sharing the creativity of others might make a fair contribution to those who create the material they need for their businesses?
Yes. It's not just unreasonable, but ridiculous to suggest that companies that give you free advertising should have to pay you to do that. These companies do not make a living from indexing and sharing. They make a living by providing a useful service that you failed to offer yourself... and they do so by promoting your work. That you fail to use that to your advantage and then demand they just give you money speaks to your own failures in business.
Should it be controversial to suggest that public bodies are prevented from endlessly extending their remits, profiting from work they do not create, or dampening innovation and investment?
Should it be controversial to suggest that private bodies are prevented from endlessly extending copyright, profiting from work they do not create, dampening innovation and investment in new works?

Oh, and one final point. Near the beginning of the talk, he quotes Bilbo Baggins. I'm curious, did he pay for the rights to do so? Did he pay a fair price?


Reader Comments (rss)

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  1.  
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    Matt, May 24th, 2010 @ 12:54pm

    Debate...

    If you want to debate this guy.. call him up and debate him. Don't present your argument by picking apart his speech, that's weak.

    I only read about a third of this article before I decided it was poorly written crap and bailed. Articles written in this style with this whiny attitude make me question whether I want Tech Dirt on my RSS list....

     

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  2.  
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    out_of_the_blue, May 24th, 2010 @ 12:55pm

    From Ambrose Bierce, price is: Value, plus

    a reasonable sum for the wear and tear on conscience in demanding it.

    But there's really only one way to cut through all the arguments over value and markets and rights, and it's quite simple: an absolute limit on income regardless of source. I suggest the income tax rate be zero below 10 millions US dollars income, and 100% above. That will naturally re-distribute the wealth that *society* produces out of the *few* hands that now manage to claim an unconscionable and unreasonable degree of it by skimming of the excess value of labors of many. The only ones inconvenienced would be those who want a thousand times beyond wretched excess, for the power it gives them, and it's easy to show that those are the people who *create* only problems for the rest of us.

     

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  3.  
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    keven sutton, May 24th, 2010 @ 1:07pm

    Re: Debate...

    you realize that live debate is only a single form of debate right? That this is another form? That there's a good chance if you can do well in one, then you'll do well in the other? Not exactly the same, and some people bomb in one or the other, but good arguments are good arguments no matter the medium they are delivered in.

     

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    open2discussion (profile), May 24th, 2010 @ 1:10pm

    Re: Debate...

    thanks for the opinion... I read the first two sentences of your comment and realized it was a weak argument.

    I didn't bother reading the rest because I don't care.

    what's that kettle? oh right...

     

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  5.  
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    Anonymous Coward, May 24th, 2010 @ 1:16pm

    That post is totally the sound of one hand masturbating. Make sure you clean yourself up before you head back to the keyboard.

     

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  6.  
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    Richard (profile), May 24th, 2010 @ 1:17pm

    If he was a smart as he thinks he is

    If he was a smart as he thinks he is he would have taken advantage of the business opportunity of search - instead of complaining about it.

    What a fool!

     

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  7.  
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    PaulT (profile), May 24th, 2010 @ 1:17pm

    Re: Debate...

    Maybe you should call Murdoch yourself and let him know that debate in a written form is not valid. That should be an interesting argument to make to someone whose industry has been built on doing exactly that via editorials and (frankly, in the case of Murdoch's rags at least) propaganda.

     

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  8.  
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    Designerfx (profile), May 24th, 2010 @ 1:20pm

    Re: Debate...

    is this like asking Mike to expect a productive conversation out of Bill O'Reily in person?

    That's what I thought, Mr. Matt in comment 1.

    ps: Hi Jim Murdoch and/or associated paid individual with RIAA/MPAA interests. You sure spent no time writing your original reply. Using the name Matt doesn't hide who really wrote it.

     

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  9.  
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    Hephaestus (profile), May 24th, 2010 @ 1:21pm

    " But you are suggesting the only way to do that is with a paywall. And when your paywall fails, then where will you be?"

    "for more government protection, complaining that if he doesn't get it, journalism will only come from the wealthy, the amateur or the government? And that he makes that claim with not a shred of evidence? "

    "That you fail to use that to your advantage and then demand they just give you money speaks to your own failures in business."

    I can see how you appreciate this guy and his opinion, hold him in the highest reguards, and enjoy his truthful and well thought out speach.

     

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  10.  
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    Anonymous Coward, May 24th, 2010 @ 1:25pm

    whenever i see mike say "strawman" i have to laugh. it is his nice way of dismissing anything he doesnt like. lets just say that techdirt is one big strawman.

     

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  11.  
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    Anonymous Coward, May 24th, 2010 @ 1:26pm

    Re:

    Here's an idea, how about instead of trolling you add something of value to the comments section.

     

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  12.  
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    Anonymous Coward, May 24th, 2010 @ 1:28pm

    Re:

    Oh really? If you have proof of that I'd love to see it.

    As it stands you're just a fail troll.

     

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  13.  
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    Anonymous Coward, May 24th, 2010 @ 1:29pm

    Re:

    Little ac is one big false dilemma.

     

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  14.  
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    Anonymous Coward, May 24th, 2010 @ 1:35pm

    Re: Re:

    I don't think they're trolling. I think they're masturbating!

     

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  15.  
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    Matt, May 24th, 2010 @ 1:36pm

    Debate... (part 2)

    Actually "debate" is an argument or discussion, regardless of the format. I didn't object to "writing" vs. "speaking", I objected to Mike's snarky style and lack of intellectual curiosity in this article. Ironically at one point he complains about Murdoch taking stuff out of context... but he takes the entire speech apart and addresses the pieces... out of context. This whole article is just a rant (or at least the part I read was) and rants just clog up my inbox.

    My point about the debate was that Mike is using terms like "straw man" to tear down Murdoch. If you want to appeal to formal logic then please do more than just hit your opponent over the head with some term you heard on 4chan and looked up on Wikipedia. (How's that for an ad hominem and a rant all in one blow?) :)

    And yes.. you should definitely put on your tin hat now because obviously no one outside of the Evil Publishing Industry would ever object to someone who tries attacking the Evil Publishing Industry.

    (FWIW, I don't like Murdoch and I think his idea of a pay-wall is ridiculous... but keep wearing that tin hat because maybe I am just BSing you)

     

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    tracker1 (profile), May 24th, 2010 @ 1:39pm

    When Architects Sue

    When architects lock me out of being able to re-sell my house, or move it to another location (costly, but possible), and want to maintain these restrictions for 75+ years, and be able to lock me out of my house if I try to park a car that isn't on a pre-approved list in my garage, I'll buy that analogy.

     

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  17.  
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    cc (profile), May 24th, 2010 @ 1:39pm

    Re:

    This is me giving your comment a negative vote, to hide it along with the replies.

    Really, are these the "useful opinions" you feel will be ignored if a comment rating system is implemented?

     

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  18.  
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    Anonymous Coward, May 24th, 2010 @ 1:40pm

    "Is it, moreover, unreasonable to suggest that companies that make a living out of indexing and sharing the creativity of others might make a fair contribution to those who create the material they need for their businesses? "

    Search engines offer you the opportunity to opt out. It's a very simple process. You don't want to be indexed, then opt out. Why is this so difficult?

     

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  19.  
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    Rose M. Welch (profile), May 24th, 2010 @ 1:42pm

    Re: Re: Re:

    I dunno, trolling is pretty masturbatory.

     

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  20.  
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    Rose M. Welch (profile), May 24th, 2010 @ 1:43pm

    Re: Re:

    Ohh, I'm totally against a comment rating system. I hate /.s.

     

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  21.  
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    cc (profile), May 24th, 2010 @ 1:44pm

    Re: Debate... (part 2)

    Mike has every right to respond to Murdoch in any way he wishes. If you don't like it, then don't read it and stop complaining.

     

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  22.  
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    Anonymous Coward, May 24th, 2010 @ 1:44pm

    Re: Debate...

    I'm sure MM would be more than glad to go on public television and debate James. Or Youtube. Or wherever. TAM, you and I both know this, and I know it's you only because only you would say something so stupid. James would never accept to debate MM and he would certainly never allow him on his show. MM goes to public conventions where he publicly speaks, I'm sure he would be more than thrilled to debate the issue with James either on public airwaves or Youtube even. Mike, am I correct in saying this? Why not ask James for a public debate, just to show TAM you are willing to debate James, and put a formal invitation on your blog. Then, when James ignores you, we can all show TAM who is the real person unwilling to debate.

     

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  23.  
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    Rose M. Welch (profile), May 24th, 2010 @ 1:44pm

    Re: When Architects Sue

    Source for the car parking bit, please. Thanks!

     

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  24.  
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    Anonymous Coward, May 24th, 2010 @ 1:45pm

    Re: Re: Debate...

    on his network *

     

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  25.  
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    jjmsan (profile), May 24th, 2010 @ 1:46pm

    Re: Debate... (part 2)

    Except all you have done is ignore his point and engage in exactly what you accuse Mike of doing. There is a name for that too and it is not strawman.

     

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  26.  
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    Modplan (profile), May 24th, 2010 @ 1:47pm

    Re: Debate... (part 2)

    What intellectual curiosity could you have about the same straw man arguments that people like Murdoch have for years that has been debunked time and time again??

     

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  27.  
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    Matt, May 24th, 2010 @ 1:48pm

    Re: Re: Debate... (part 2)

    :shrug:


    OK

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  28.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, May 24th, 2010 @ 1:50pm

    Re:

    Basically all you have to do is put a line of text in your robots.txt and, TADA, like magic, you won't show up. but no, that's too difficult. You want to force search engines to index you and you want to FORCE them to pay you for indexing you. To me, that sounds like extortion.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  29.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, May 24th, 2010 @ 1:51pm

    Re: Re: Debate... (part 2)

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  30.  
    icon
    Christopher Weigel (profile), May 24th, 2010 @ 1:55pm

    Re: Debate... (part 2)

    Taking a speech apart into individual, coherent points is fine so long as you don't change the meaning of the point. It's called "respect for a reader". It's actually a debate format... point - counterpoint. Perhaps you've heard of it?

    Also, the term Rant, as used by you, seems to mean "a long, well-written piece that I'm too lazy and/or intellectually underdeveloped to read".

    And what else do you call debating a non-existent position?

    Please, delete this from your RSS reader. Obviously intellectual debate isn't your forte, which is fine. Just try developing an understanding of your own weaknesses.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  31.  
    identicon
    Matt, May 24th, 2010 @ 1:55pm

    Re: Re: Debate... (part 2)

    Yes, I ignored his point because I don't care one way or the other. I *wanted* to care about the issue but Mike's analysis was filled with snarky comments rather than substantive arguments... so now I still don't care.

    If you want me to care about your point... make a good one. That's my only point.

    Apparently I am not good at making my point though. But then, I am not writing a blog.

    I doubt if Mike gives a rats behind if I read his blog. He might want feedback but my guess is that he gets it from HitWise not the comments section.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  32.  
    icon
    Christopher Weigel (profile), May 24th, 2010 @ 1:57pm

    Re: Re: When Architects Sue

    I think he was trying to create a hypothetical analogy

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  33.  
    icon
    Richard (profile), May 24th, 2010 @ 1:58pm

    The real history of the Statue of Anne

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  34.  
    icon
    Christopher Weigel (profile), May 24th, 2010 @ 1:59pm

    Re: Re:

    To me that sounds like the music industry's approach to radio.

    Seriously, do they all have the exact same "evil corporation's playbook against innovation" they're referencing?

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  35.  
    icon
    Richard (profile), May 24th, 2010 @ 2:00pm

    300 year whinge

    Murdoch's speech is just the latest chapter in a 300 year whinge

    "the Statute of Anne was the direct result of their lobbying and campaigning. In the memorable words of the contemporary Lord Camden, the Stationers "...came up to Parliament in the form of petitioners, with tears in their eyes, hopeless and forlorn; they brought with them their wives and children to excite compassion, and induce Parliament to grant them a statutory security."

    from http://questioncopyright.org/promise#1

     

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  36.  
    identicon
    Matt, May 24th, 2010 @ 2:03pm

    Re: Re: Debate... (part 2)

    Well-written is in the eye of the beholder. I didn't think it was particularly well written... but again, that's now what I objected to.

    If I want a well-written article I will read Krauthammer or Krugman. They not only write well but they debate well. (Yes, they are both on my RSS feed...)

    I don't expect well-written pieces from a blog called "Tech Dirt" but I wouldn't mind something a little more substantive than "This is so wrong it's laughable" and "How obnoxious".

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  37.  
    icon
    Mike Masnick (profile), May 24th, 2010 @ 2:06pm

    Re: Re: Debate...

    I'm sure MM would be more than glad to go on public television and debate James. Or Youtube. Or wherever. TAM, you and I both know this, and I know it's you only because only you would say something so stupid. James would never accept to debate MM and he would certainly never allow him on his show. MM goes to public conventions where he publicly speaks, I'm sure he would be more than thrilled to debate the issue with James either on public airwaves or Youtube even. Mike, am I correct in saying this?

    Sure. I'm perfectly happy to publicly debate James Murdoch in whatever forum he prefers.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  38.  
    icon
    Mike Masnick (profile), May 24th, 2010 @ 2:09pm

    Re: Re: Re: Debate... (part 2)

    I doubt if Mike gives a rats behind if I read his blog. He might want feedback but my guess is that he gets it from HitWise not the comments section.

    Sure I care. But plenty of people clearly are interested in this type of post, and many of them find it valuable. In fact, multiple people submitted this, specifically asking that I go through it and debunk it.

    I take a bit of offense to the idea that I just responded snarkily. I went through his huge speech and pointed to deliberate mistakes that he made and explained why they were mistaken. I'm sorry if you don't like the tone that I used, but I don't think it's worth dismissing my detailed points because you disagree with the tone.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  39.  
    icon
    Christopher Weigel (profile), May 24th, 2010 @ 2:13pm

    Re: Re: Re: Debate... (part 2)

    d'aww, look, the troll discovered Ad Hominem!

    Do you have [b]anything[/b] intelligent to say?

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  40.  
    icon
    FreemonSandlewould (profile), May 24th, 2010 @ 2:17pm

    Re:

    Obama worshipper chimes in again.

    Don't forget to pray 5 times today in the direction of your Bama-Diorama!

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  41.  
    icon
    Christopher Weigel (profile), May 24th, 2010 @ 2:20pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Debate... (part 2)

    I wouldn't take too much offense. Matt's the small vocal minority.

    http://xkcd.com/639/

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  42.  
    icon
    nasch (profile), May 24th, 2010 @ 2:20pm

    Re:

    They don't want to opt out. They want to stay indexed, AND get paid. They know that if they try to negotiate payment for indexing from the likes of Google, they'll get nowhere, so they try to get the government to FORCE search engines to pay.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  43.  
    icon
    Christopher Weigel (profile), May 24th, 2010 @ 2:21pm

    Re: Re:

    Wha...?

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  44.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, May 24th, 2010 @ 2:24pm

    Re: Re: Re: Debate... (part 2)

    Your comment isn't particularly well written.

    "but again, that's now what I objected to."

    What you're objecting to is the fact that James would never debate Mike, Mike would be more than glad to debate James, Mike even said so. Well, that's not Mike's fault, that's Jame's fault.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  45.  
    icon
    Dark Helmet (profile), May 24th, 2010 @ 2:33pm

    Re: Debate...

    "If you want to debate this guy.. call him up and debate him. Don't present your argument by picking apart his speech, that's weak."

    Christ, tell me about! I hate it when people go through what others have written, quote parts of it, and then try to rip it apart piece by piece. Is there anything more annoying?

    "I only read about a third of this article before I decided it was poorly written crap and bailed."

    That must work out well for you. I can imagine only reading the first third of James Joyce's "Portrait" and deciding that it's all just silly stream of consciousness. Or getting through the first third of Fight Club and wondering what this plot twist all these people are talking about. Advertising your ADD probably isn't the best plan....

    "Articles written in this style with this whiny attitude make me question whether I want Tech Dirt on my RSS list...."

    I firmly suggest you go with your gut on this one and take it off the RSS. That's really the only thing to do. In fact, probably the only really safe way to proceed would be to stay as far away from this site as possible. Certainly it would behoove you to never comment again....

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  46.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, May 24th, 2010 @ 2:37pm

    Re: Re: Debate...

    Wow, you must be in a bad mood. Well, it happens to me too.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  47.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, May 24th, 2010 @ 2:37pm

    isnt murdoch the guy that is in a mental hospital

    haha lets listn to someone thats insane
    GO ATEAM

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  48.  
    identicon
    Matt, May 24th, 2010 @ 2:41pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Debate... (part 2)

    ?That wasn't an ad hominem? That was an appeal to a higher authority if anything.

    Not trolling. Didn't think this site was quite so defensive. I should have been nicer in my thoughtless criticism.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  49.  
    identicon
    Matt, May 24th, 2010 @ 2:45pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Debate... (part 2)

    Mike,

    I am a VERY small minority apparently. :) I did go back and read the full article and yes you addressed his points. Even so, your article suffered from your tone (in my opinion), however you are apparently playing to your audience which is not only acceptable but prudent.

    My apologies. I will take the much offered advice and leave the folks here to their own devices (and well-entrenched points of view!)

    Good day now.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  50.  
    icon
    Rose M. Welch (profile), May 24th, 2010 @ 3:12pm

    Re: Re: Re: When Architects Sue

    Well, the first analogy is based on real events. If the second analogy were, as well, I'd like to know about so.

    So this isn't a case of 'Prove it.', it's a case of 'Really? Tell me more.'.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  51.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, May 24th, 2010 @ 3:58pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Debate... (part 2)

    Coward.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  52.  
    icon
    Karl (profile), May 24th, 2010 @ 4:16pm

    Re:

    That post is totally the sound of one hand masturbating.

    ...he types, furiously, with one hand.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  53.  
    icon
    Karl (profile), May 24th, 2010 @ 4:21pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Debate... (part 2)

    Note to Matt: The above was written by an anti-Mike troll. The sane among us thank you, and accept your apology.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  54.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, May 24th, 2010 @ 5:29pm

    Re: When Architects Sue

    When architects lock me out of being able to re-sell my house, or move it to another location (costly, but possible), and want to maintain these restrictions for 75+ years, and be able to lock me out of my house if I try to park a car that isn't on a pre-approved list in my garage, I'll buy that analogy.


    When consumers start paying an architect's salary for their albums and films I'll buy your retort.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  55.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, May 24th, 2010 @ 5:37pm

    James Murdoch is standing still while a wall of people is coming in his direction going in the opposite way LoL

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  56.  
    icon
    iamtheky (profile), May 24th, 2010 @ 5:45pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Debate... (part 2)

    Actually, that was mine. Just forgot to sign in at work. And I am far from an Anti-Mike troll. I just thought it was long winded and re-hashed a lot of the arguments that are readily agreed upon. There are far more worthy opponents than the very easily dissected Mr. Murdoch.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  57.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, May 24th, 2010 @ 5:59pm

    Re: Re:

    the day that mike does something other than yell "strawman" and ignore a concept, i might. until then, well, it would be a strawman to do it, no? after all, i am not troubled or deeply concerned or anything like that, but mike is.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  58.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, May 24th, 2010 @ 6:02pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Debate... (part 2)

    welcome to the "shouted down" department, techdirt style. your comments were relevant, these types of posts are somewhere between mental masturbation and meaningless, a one sided slamfest that advances nothing. perhaps it makes mike feel better, but i also think it bring out the worst in both tone and substance.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  59.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, May 24th, 2010 @ 6:27pm

    Re: When Architects Sue

    Kudos for including an automobile in your bad analogy

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  60.  
    icon
    Rose M. Welch (profile), May 24th, 2010 @ 6:42pm

    Re: Re: When Architects Sue

    You mean when producers receive an architect's salary? Well, that day is here.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  61.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, May 24th, 2010 @ 7:21pm

    Re: Re: Re: When Architects Sue

    You mean when producers receive an architect's salary? Well, that day is here.


    What does a producer's salary have to do with idiots believing they should get the full rights to a work for 99 cents?

    An architect sells the full rights for the full price. A DVD is sold with limited rights for a limited price.

    Simple.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  62.  
    icon
    Rose M. Welch (profile), May 24th, 2010 @ 7:40pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: When Architects Sue

    An architect doesn't sell his designs as many times as a producer sells his movie. It follows that increased volume results in a reduced price, and has nothing to do with rights.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  63.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, May 24th, 2010 @ 8:56pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: When Architects Sue

    An architect doesn't sell his designs as many times as a producer sells his movie.


    Yes, because architects are generally employed through work-for-hire scenarios, a situation that is far different from many other business relationships. I am still unsure what your point is with all of this. Are you actually trying to say that the full rights to a creative work should be sold for the per-unit price? Are you actually saying that all business transactions should mirror one another and not deviate from the easy to understand work-for-hire scenario? What grandiose point are you coyly skirting? Do you even have one?

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  64.  
    icon
    Rose M. Welch (profile), May 24th, 2010 @ 10:25pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: When Architects Sue

    I didn't compare architects to producers. I simply responded to the person who compared their salaries, and then to someone to compared the rights received. You might detail your point, instead. :)

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  65.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, May 25th, 2010 @ 2:47am

    Re: Re: Re:

    But Murdoch is setting up strawmen. I haven't ever come across anyone who presents the viewpoints Murdoch is arguing against.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  66.  
    identicon
    Jake, May 25th, 2010 @ 4:41am

    I think James Murdoch genuinely believes value and price are synonyms.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  67.  
    icon
    Sneeje (profile), May 25th, 2010 @ 5:53am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Debate... (part 2)

    Please introduce us to the forum that is not a one-sided slamfest on this issue.

    Oh, and if you keep using that word, you're going to go blind.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  68.  
    icon
    SteelWolf (profile), May 25th, 2010 @ 5:55am

    Re: Re: Re:

    There's always Gawker's star commenter system. I'm not sure what I think of that, but I do notice that showing only featured discussions on their sites usually gets me the highest quality stuff.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  69.  
    icon
    Sneeje (profile), May 25th, 2010 @ 5:57am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Debate... (part 2)

    It absolutely is ad hominem. You attacked his writing style, not the content of the article.

    The folks here are defensive of Mike, not necessarily the issues at hand. If you debated content rather than style, you would find the forum much more welcoming.

    Don't get distracted by folks like TAM who try to spin the debate as being one-sided and close-minded. Notice that *never* do they present an opposing view that includes sound logic or evidence. They simply throw names and belittle everyone hoping that no one will see through their efforts.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  70.  
    identicon
    Darryl, May 25th, 2010 @ 5:57am

    Strawmen unite !!

    Mike, It appears you are the one with a weak understanding of the law, and commerce, and you appear to be very misinformed regarding copyright and patent law. And the economics of the world.

    You constantly decry others comments, and are the first to call them strawman arguments, at the same time failing to provide anything like a strong counter argument, except for you're own strawment you put up in place.

    To say movie sales were higher even though file sharing is taking place, shows you have little or no understanding of economics.

    All that says is that there are more honest people, who understand that taking it for free is damaging, and would ultimately result in moveies of that cost and quality not being producted in the first place.

    You're saying, Banks make profit even with bank robbers, therefore bank robbing is "ok".

    It's not ok, and if you understand the law, the actual laws, not you're interpretation of it, and start to consider the people you blog too are more knowlegable and logical than you give them any credit for.

    The result of this is a reflection on you're own credability, ive heard you're a lawyer ? if that is the case, are you practicing, what's you're specialisation ?

    But it's sad that nothing anyone else can say on these subjects are either strawman arguments, and weak or misleading retoric with no supporting evidence.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  71.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, May 25th, 2010 @ 7:53am

    Re: Strawmen unite !!

    "To say movie sales were higher even though file sharing is taking place, shows you have little or no understanding of economics."

    How so?

    and when he says it he merely says it to refute a claim made by the movie industry, that piracy is destroying their business. It's not, as there is evidence against it.

    "All that says is that there are more honest people, who understand that taking it for free is damaging"

    Making copies and taking are not the same thing. and opening up a competing ice cream shop next to yours may also be damaging to your business but that doesn't make it wrong. Just because you deem something damaging to your particular business model doesn't make it wrong. Get a new business model instead.

    "You're saying, Banks make profit even with bank robbers, therefore bank robbing is "ok"."

    No one made this argument.

    "It's not ok, and if you understand the law, "

    The law makes it clear that monopoly power is only to be used to promote the progress. It's not there to ensure that artists get paid, that's merely a means to an end, it's there to promote the progress. Mike understands the law.

    "the actual laws, not you're interpretation of it, "

    Because your interpretation is superior to anyone elses because you said so. but don't bother to attempt to actually use logic and reasoning to defend your position.

    "and start to consider the people you blog too are more knowlegable and logical than you give them any credit for. "

    Well, where is this knowledge and logic you claim to possess then?

    Bank Robbery is wrong but that's not to say that copyright infringement is inherently wrong. It's not.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  72.  
    icon
    nasch (profile), May 25th, 2010 @ 7:59am

    Re: Re: Re:

    until then, well, it would be a strawman to do it, no?

    Oh I see, you don't know what "strawman" means. Please look it up before you post on this topic again.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  73.  
    icon
    nasch (profile), May 25th, 2010 @ 8:26am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Debate... (part 2)

    This is the "invited to produce a reasoned counterargument" department. Which so far I have not seen. I think you have the wrong place, though it can be fun to play the martyr, yes?

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  74.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, May 25th, 2010 @ 10:10am

    Let me ask a simple question.

    Is there any aspect of US copyright law (starting in 1790 and continuing to date) as it pertains to the music, movie, book publishing, and software businesses that is believed by you to reflect the historical underpinnings of copyright law?

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  75.  
    icon
    Mike Masnick (profile), May 25th, 2010 @ 6:27pm

    Re: Strawmen unite !!

    You constantly decry others comments, and are the first to call them strawman arguments, at the same time failing to provide anything like a strong counter argument, except for you're own strawment you put up in place.

    Do you know what strawman means? What strawman argument have I put forth? In the above post, I quoted Murdoch directly, so I don't see any strawman. He was the one who presented actual strawmen.

    To say movie sales were higher even though file sharing is taking place, shows you have little or no understanding of economics.

    Hmm. Making a factual statement shows I have little or no understanding of economics? How is that even possible?

    All that says is that there are more honest people, who understand that taking it for free is damaging, and would ultimately result in moveies of that cost and quality not being producted in the first place.

    If that's the case, then there really isn't an issue is there? After all, you are claiming that file sharing is not really an issue, right?

    But, as another commenter pointed out, you seem to be mistaking the argument I made for one you've made up: I did not say that file sharing is to be ignored by the industry (actually, the opposite). The only point in the box office story is that it's a counter to the false claim that file sharing is *destroying* the industry, as we keep hearing.

    You're saying, Banks make profit even with bank robbers, therefore bank robbing is "ok".


    I said no such thing. See, Darryl, what you present here is what is called a strawman. You set up something that you pretend I've said, even though I have not.

    It's not ok, and if you understand the law, the actual laws, not you're interpretation of it, and start to consider the people you blog too are more knowlegable and logical than you give them any credit for.

    If they are logical and knowledgeable of the law, then I would expect them to present their arguments in a logical fashion -- as many do. I have no doubt that many of my commenters are significantly more knowledgeable on the law and of basic logic than I am, and I see the majority of my commenters do seem to make logical arguments. But logical arguments are not things like claiming that making a factual statement "movie sales were higher even though file sharing is in place" is proof that I have "little or no understanding of economics."

    Darryl, I'll even help you out. If you want to prove I have little or no understanding of economics, you have to take a claim I've actually made about economics, and disprove it.

    The result of this is a reflection on you're own credability

    Indeed. And the vast majority of commenters and feedback is incredibly positive, detailed and logical. And I hear from lots of folks who I respect who give me the same feedback. There is a small group of critics, but I have seen little evidence that those critics have a detailed grasp on this particular subject.

    ive heard you're a lawyer ? if that is the case, are you practicing, what's you're specialisation ?

    You heard incorrectly.

    But it's sad that nothing anyone else can say on these subjects are either strawman arguments, and weak or misleading retoric with no supporting evidence.

    Not so. People are free to present real arguments, evidence and data. If you have some evidence please present it. You are welcome to do so. But, I must warn you, if you do pretend I said something I didn't, don't be upset if I *accurately* refer to it as a strawman.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  76.  
    icon
    Mike Masnick (profile), May 25th, 2010 @ 6:29pm

    Re:

    Is there any aspect of US copyright law (starting in 1790 and continuing to date) as it pertains to the music, movie, book publishing, and software businesses that is believed by you to reflect the historical underpinnings of copyright law?

    The historical underpinnings of copyright law are to promote the progress. I am willing to accept any aspect of copyright law if someone can present evidence that that aspect does, in fact, promote the progress.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]


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