Will Spamhaus Get Shut Down Over Dispute?

from the not-good dept

Last month, we wrote about a judge awarding an $11 million judgment against anti-spam organization Spamhaus, after an accused spammer (in Spamhaus's database) sued the organization. Spamhaus lost, in part, because they refused to appear (though, the details now suggest they originally did appear, and then stopped). Spamhaus is run by Steve Linford, who is based in the UK. The suit was filed in Illinois -- so Spamhaus had a reasonable claim that the Illinois court has no jurisdiction over a UK-based organization, and little worry that they would need to actually pay (if they had $11 million, which it seems likely they don't as a volunteer group). However, they probably didn't expect the latest turn of events.

The court is now thinking about asking ICANN to suspend spamhaus.org, which would cause all sorts of problems for the many, many, many ISPs, companies and individuals out there who rely on Spamhaus' list of spammers. Dave Farber's Interesting People discussion list is having a big debate over this, pointing to a worthwhile discussion from an Illinois lawyer and spam fighter not involved in the case. He points out why the judge really had no choice, due to some mistakes that Spamhaus made early on, and warns that Spamhaus may be in real trouble if they try to duck this. While others argue that Spamhaus may be able to continue operating without a domain, but just using an IP address, there's no guarantee the court won't try to shut down the IP address as well. Either way, this all represents a real dilemma for Spamhaus, generally one of the most respected anti-spam lists out there. They probably have a reasonable defense: all they do is put out a list. They do not actively block a spammer, and they generally can back up why certain spammers are on their list in pretty great detail. However, if they are forced to defend each and every lawsuit filed by an upset spammer, it would make it prohibitively costly for Spamhaus (or any other such list) to remain in business -- in which case all of us who rely on such lists lose out. It's not clear where this goes from here, but it could represent a serious issue for anyone who keeps an anti-spam list or uses an anti-spam list to filter their email.


Reader Comments (rss)

(Flattened / Threaded)

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    RantMax, Oct 9th, 2006 @ 4:19am

    Duh

    Spammers sue spam protection service.

    It's apparent the Internet is just way too young to be dropped into this mature (ehm..) legal system without the proper provisions written in law to protect us.

    There's no chance a criminal caught in the act with photographic and video evidence can sue the police force and win, is there.

    And if we move things back in the days of the Wild Wild West, vigilante justice was applied often and appropriately and since criminals were less than the rest of the community, the community won most of the time.

    With Internet criminal activities there's plenty of gray areas where you can neither use legal justice nor take actions yourself, since the legal syastem maybe be abused against you..

    Pretty tough situation for us all.

     

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    Cleverboy, Oct 9th, 2006 @ 4:24am

    Awful...

    This is just awful. If everyone can be sued Internationally unless they appear, what hope does ANY Internet service, noble, or inconsequential have? I've had morons in my forum who've been banned for being idiots, that have threatened lawsuits. In this particular case, what reprieve do they even have at this point?

     

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    A chicken passeth by, Oct 9th, 2006 @ 4:54am

    Need to ask this of everyone - if a spammer spoofs you and you get blocked, who's at fault, and what can you do (other than getting another address)?

    Walking into work one day and having to solve a problem where all mail sending is disabled due to the ISP classing everything my company sends as UCE REALLY REALLY sucks . Especially when you're the tech, are expected to do something about it, and can't really do much in the end.

    I'm against spammers, but I'm not really that happy about these RBLs either - tho I do respect their work.

    Email is dead, I swear...

    (PS: I did get my company unblocked, but that was a pretty crappy experience overall.)

     

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    Frank J. McCourry, Oct 9th, 2006 @ 5:13am

    Spammers Suck...

    We've been running an email service for our customers for over 10 years now. While I agreen that DNS blacklists and Spam lists can be a pain, it is even more painfull dealing with angry customers. One word of advise, keep up and constantly look for vulnerabilities in your email system.

    As for the Spammers, they have no rights as far as I am concerned. They STEAL bandwidth from legitimate businesses and ILLEGALLY use your domains and mail servers against you. Why the legal system in this country supports them I'll never know. Nope, take that back, the almighty dollar rules!

    And that's exactly what is wrong with it. Money is the only thing SPAMMERS and LAWYERS are concerned with. Until we find a way to hit their pocketbooks, this won't go away. (Yes, I did put SPAMMERS and LAWYERS in the same class, if your offended, change your proffesion or prove me wrong).

     

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    Enrico Suarve, Oct 9th, 2006 @ 5:50am

    What is this judge on??

    I mean seriously - is he Linhardt's best customer secretly hoovering up all of the pills that the guy constantly spams the rest of the world about?

    Linhardt LIED to the judge in the original case - he stated categorically that Spamhaus operated businesses in the US and this is how he got the action into court by creating a FALSE statement which gave the judge theoretical jurisdiction - Spamhaus is a UK operated company which as far as I am aware has no assets of any kind in the US

    If you don't believe me read the court transcript on e360Insight (Mr Linhard's own page) http://www.e360insight.com

    If anybody is in contempt of court it's Linhardt, only the judge now appears to embarrassed and flustered to admit he was hoodwinked

    Could somebody please grab this judge and give him a slap before he does anymore damage to his reputation and the future safety of the internet?

    I demand the right to information to protect me from twisted marketing prats like Linhardt and keep their shite out of my inbox, my business model should not have to involve using time, effort and resources cleaning out unwanted garbage mails at the rate of hundreds per day from people like Linhardt's customers

    I WANT to speak to Spamhaus (freedom of speech) and the fact that they have dented a judges pride in a different country by refusing to join in on the farce he failed to prevent is neither of our concern

    Sorry rant over - the man is annoying me and he needs to be told

    Frankly it looks like the way this is going you guys in the US will end up banned from using email blacklists so will probably have to put up with even more junk mail - sorry for you.

    FYI - Spamhaus can also be found at www.spamhaus.org.uk , a domain which thankfully egotistical, overreaching judges in Illinois (currently) have no jurisdiction over. Although the judge in this case may attempt to create a block on their IP in the US effectively creating a new blacklist for companies which annoy judges ;0)

     

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      Name Withheld, Oct 9th, 2006 @ 7:20am

      Re: What is this judge on??

      That's DUMB. Nobody is going to get sued for USING a spam-blocking list.

      I can see how a frustrated spammer could push a lawsuit against someone who publishes a spam-blocking list, but it wouldn't make it past the appellate court.

      But a lawsuit against someone who sets up his computer to block certain spammers would get thrown out immediately.

      In fact, the desk clerk in the Circuit Court where the spammer tries to file the suit would probably just laugh in his face and call him a dickweed.

       

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        Enrico Suarve, Oct 9th, 2006 @ 9:29am

        Re: Re: What is this judge on??

        "That's DUMB. Nobody is going to get sued for USING a spam-blocking list."

        Correct - now read the article

        No you're not going to get sued but the Judge is trying to stop users from using a blacklist in the US by removing the lists .org address and possibly by blocking the IP in the US - end result you are banned from using the blacklist

        This sets a precedent so the next spammer with an issue creates a bullshit legal action against another lister by lying to and confusing a judge and the next one is blocked and so on...

         

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    Anonymous Coward, Oct 9th, 2006 @ 5:52am

    Headlines that pose a question are not news.

    Is anybody else sick of all these "news" items where they simply pose a question rather than reporting news?

    "Will Spamhaus Get Shut Down Over Dispute?" I don't fucking know, and apparently the people at Techdirt don't either because they're asking me.

    If it isn't known, then it's not news yet, shut up until you know one way or another.

     

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      Gabriel Tane (profile), Oct 9th, 2006 @ 7:08am

      Re: Headlines that pose a question are not news.

      Rhetoric anyone? And did you even read the article? It is news. The headline is simply stating the question that is generated by these events.

      Now that you're done unnecessarily attacking a news site (anonymously, I might add), go back to "boom, headshot"-ing in counterstrike. The grownups are talking here.

       

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    Daniel Morritt, Oct 9th, 2006 @ 6:11am

    to the above anonymous coward ... i see your point but i dont get your agression!

    its sad that people in the wrong can sue, like a crimial sueing for hurting himself on your property, or a crim sueing the police for not looking after them properly ... but surely we can all sue the spammers for using out interlectual property? after all i get daily NDR's from mail purporting to be me (and i promise i have never used viagra and wouldnt sell it to you if i did!!), if i sent an letter pretending to be a large company i am sure i would get an instant response from a lawyer, yet its acceptable for spammers to use your email? let alone your mail servers!

     

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    Ifya Cantbeatem Fuckem, Oct 9th, 2006 @ 6:25am

    oh bloody hell

    Spamhaus: Just do what every red-blooded American company does: sell/transfer/move your assets (the list) to another company and pick right up where you left off. It will be a new entity and therefore not responsible for the problems of the previous entity. If you get sued again, do it again. Legal AND fun.

    And send a birthday card featuring all your volunteers' bums to that ignorant judge. That ass.

     

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    Bobo, Oct 9th, 2006 @ 6:28am

    Every time some moron judge makes such a ruling EVERY single last spam prevention group should shut down (in that judges country) and point the finger at him and the countries lawmakers. Between the angry people and the angrier businesses, including the big ones with lobbyists, the judge would change his decision and the laws would change too. Won't happen until everyone grows the balls to do this though.

     

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    chris (profile), Oct 9th, 2006 @ 6:36am

    this is why

    the US should not have control over ICANN or any other body with infulence over the internet.

     

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      Enrico Suarve, Oct 9th, 2006 @ 6:55am

      Re: this is why

      Amen brother... although I think we should expand that out to ALL governments - my own (UK) is slightly ahead of the US on SPAM but I wouldn't trust them not to cock it up either!

       

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    Spartikus, Oct 9th, 2006 @ 7:23am

    Re: Headlines that pose a question are not news

    "Is anybody else sick of all these "news" items where they simply pose a question rather than reporting news?"

    No.

    "Will Spamhaus Get Shut Down Over Dispute?" I don't fucking know, and apparently the people at Techdirt don't either because they're asking me."

    Literary Device'd!!!

    "If it isn't known, then it's not news yet, shut up until you know one way or another."

    This is my favorite... You've got it backwards. If somebody did a news story on the Michael Jackson trials today, *that* wouldn't be news. Why? Because it *is* known... The things people are interested in are current events, things that are still happening and therefore have unknown outcomes much of the time. During Katrina, lots of people were displaced and we didn't know what was going to happen to them, but I'd still like to here about it.

    You stop posting dumb things.

     

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      Anonymous Coward, Oct 9th, 2006 @ 8:52am

      Re: Re: Headlines that pose a question are not new

      "This is my favorite... You've got it backwards. If somebody did a news story on the Michael Jackson trials today, *that* wouldn't be news. Why? Because it *is* known... The things people are interested in are current events, things that are still happening and therefore have unknown outcomes much of the time. During Katrina, lots of people were displaced and we didn't know what was going to happen to them, but I'd still like to here about it."

      You're completely retarded.

      News items are things that just occured, actually occuring, or imminent. All else is speculation or historical, and therefore not news.

      Will the earth be hit by a comet?

      Will terrorists attack [country] tomorrow?

      Will North Korea nuke the US?

      Will Russia shut down allofmp3.com?

      Will there be another tsunami?

      Will Google buy [company]?

      Is Google going to provide [service]?

      I can speculate about an infinite number of things, but that does not make any of them news.

      When spamhaus is GOING to be shut down (as in an imminent certainty) I'll care. Until then it's just speculative sensationalism.

       

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        Gabriel Tane (profile), Oct 9th, 2006 @ 11:56am

        Re: Re: Re: Headlines that pose a question are not

        "You're completely retarded"
        -AC

        And you're having to resort to ad hominem attacks. Go you.

        All of your little "speculative sensationalist" headlines are still news. Those headlines would be used for stories that have further information regarding the situations. For example: "Will N. Korea Nuke the US?" could be a story about new intelligence that shows N.K. making plans to attack us. Yup. That'd be news.

        "Will Google buy [company]?" would be a story about Google entering into talks with [company] to discuss acquisition. Hey... looky there. That's news.

        "Will Russia shut down allofmp3.com?" What about a new statement issued by the Russian government that says they're considering it. Since that would be a change of mind for them... well shit-damn, I guess that'd be news.

        Holy crap. There's news all over the place.

        The news in all of these examples may not be surprising or even breaking news. But that doesn't mean that it's not news.

        Yes the headlines are sensationalist... but that doesn't make them not news. As long as the headlines are applicable to the story contained therein, I'd say that's good use of rhetoric in getting a point across.

        So I have two questions for you:

        1) Why does a story have to be breaking and heretofore unheard of before you consider it news? What about additional information that's newly discovered?

        2) Why does this bother you so much that you have to come onto a forum and start flaming people?

         

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    Tim, Oct 9th, 2006 @ 7:30am

    "They probably have a reasonable defense: all they do is put out a list. "

    That is a crap "defence", on two grounds:
    a) you can't reasonably deny responsibility when you know you have however-many million users
    b) the list is a statement that "these folks are bad-asses". Having had experience of one of the more rogue RBL-houses blocking an entire /16 around work ("because, uh, verizon as a whole are not playing ball with us today"), the appropriate answer *is* to sue for libel or slander.

    Face it. Some RBLs may be run responsibly (and spamhaus would receive my sympathy in proportion), but their power is limited when the injustice is so blatantly visible.
    This is before you get onto the more complex issue that, if an ISP were to kick a spammer off, they would simply pop up somewhere else; however, if you tarpit / blackhole their outgoing crud, you retain control over them and authority to contact them demanding a chance in behaviour - so an RBL blacklisting an entire ISP is pretty much nonsensical.

     

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    Izzy, Oct 9th, 2006 @ 9:39am

    Keep the list alive

    They should distribute the blacklist to thousands of "helpers" and keep it alive and growing. The spammers can't sue the whole world.

     

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      `Zidane Tribal, Oct 9th, 2006 @ 10:00am

      Re: Keep the list alive

      why not? they spam the whole world ;)

      an interesting thought, can you initiate something like this via email? (thats a serious question btw, i am not a lawyer and in the uk, i have no idea how this stuff works in the US).

      if you *could* initiate some kind of legal action this way, you can be damn sure 'billy the spammer' will have a feild day sending out a million litigation emails for a day instead of viagra ads.

       

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    Anonymous Coward, Oct 9th, 2006 @ 9:51am

    Microsoft should join the case as a defendant and then use their $$$ to tie up the SPAMMERS in court for the rest of their existance......

     

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    saf, Oct 9th, 2006 @ 9:57am

    Spam list

    Spamhaus just makes the list, they don't control how the list is used. The ISP's and Admins of the many mail servers control how the list is used. My mail server at work currently just flags them as spam, and the filters on the mail clients put them in a junk box.

    My system had been listed once, it was not much of a problem to get it not listed. Once I corrected the problem with the mail server, with in 24 hours we were not listed.

    Most of the lists are automated, and you can submit a domain for testing, when it passes it gets removed. I was on an open relay list.

    The Judge was probably up for reelection and wanted the compain fundings.

     

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    Kimberly Ann Kubalek, Oct 9th, 2006 @ 9:59am

    Enrico writes, "I demand the right to information to protect me from twisted marketing prats like Linhardt and keep their shite out of my inbox. My business model should not have to involve using time, effort and resources cleaning out unwanted garbage mails at the rate of hundreds per day from people like Linhardt's customers,"

    Well said. But sadly, unless you can back up those demands with an enormaous pile of cash, those demands amount to little more than whining. If the inbox is of such importance to big business, then why are volunteer organizations doing this work? Why hasn't the demand been so huge that these folks aren't making the piles of cash necessary to fight these fights?

     

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      dbjock, Oct 9th, 2006 @ 8:24pm

      Re: why are volunteer organizations doing this wor

      I would like to back the "demands" that Enrico wrote and to answer your "Why hasn't the demand been so huge that these folks aren't making the piles of cash necessary to fight these fights?"

      There are other DNSBL lists which you have to pay money for. MAPS (http://www.mail-abuse.com/) is one of the most common and started the RBL name for this (which is a service mark of MAPS LLC) and DNSBL is what it's suppose to be called.

      just my .02

       

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        Enrico Suarve, Oct 10th, 2006 @ 10:50am

        Re: Re: why are volunteer organizations doing this

        Hi - Sorry been away doing all the stuff I do when I'm not being a geek (i.e. sleeping)

        Much as I like Spamhaus and their service I think it may be misleading to call them an entirely volunteer organisation - sure they are 'not for profit' but they do earn basic salaries as far as I am aware (not sure what the rules are about this in the UK so I could be off-track slightly)

        And although they will give individuals and charities access to their services for free they do charge larger businesses - they charge mine and I consider it money well spent

        Frankly for the difference these types of companies make to my day I hope they all go out and get wasted occasionally on paid for company morale trips ;0)

        Like dbjock states there are several such companies and in some cases it is BIG business - just who do you think supplies the spam block lists most of you use at home?

        However as often happens smaller operations sometimes are more effective - they don't have shareholders to kiss ass to and are often more flexible (plus x% of their profits aren't syphoned off to feed some traders sharehabit and can be reinvested instead)

        Anyway - I'm off track - the judge needs a slap - I need a volunteer or a flight paid for... ;0)

         

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    Anonymous Coward, Oct 9th, 2006 @ 10:04am

    Judge may not understand

    Spamhaus also has spamhaus.co.uk

    Unless I am wrong, ICANN has no control ofer the .uk domain

    Tom

     

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      Gabriel Tane (profile), Oct 9th, 2006 @ 11:57am

      Re: Judge may not understand

      "Unless I am wrong, ICANN has no control ofer the .uk domain"
      -Tom


      Wait... ICANN has control over something?

       

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      Anonymous Coward, Oct 9th, 2006 @ 3:25pm

      Re: Judge may not understand

      > Unless I am wrong, ICANN has no control ofer the .uk domain

      Nor the IP address, which is allocated by RIPE.

      And it's not at all true that the judge is simply doing what he has to in order to follow through. Rather than issue a contempt citation (good luck enforcing that), he instead expanded the scope of an injunction to the degree of shutting down spamhaus entirely (or at least gamely attempting to). The judge doesn't seem to care about the case being overturned on appeal.

       

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    Anonymous Coward, Oct 9th, 2006 @ 12:21pm

    ;; ANSWER SECTION:
    www.spamhaus.org. 206 IN A 216.168.30.71

    ;; AUTHORITY SECTION:
    spamhaus.org. 171249 IN NS ns8.spamhaus.org.
    spamhaus.org. 171249 IN NS hq-ns.oarc.isc.org.
    spamhaus.org. 171249 IN NS udns1.ultradns.net.
    spamhaus.org. 171249 IN NS udns2.ultradns.net.

    ;; ADDITIONAL SECTION:
    ns8.spamhaus.org. 171250 IN A 216.168.28.44
    hq-ns.oarc.isc.org. 2094 IN A 204.152.184.186
    udns1.ultradns.net. 172531 IN A 204.69.234.1
    udns2.ultradns.net. 172531 IN A 204.74.101.1

     

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    John Schutzman, Oct 9th, 2006 @ 12:26pm

    Judges just don't understand

    This may offend some of the older techdirt readers and I apologize. ::This is my opinion::

    Q: Who are the people making decisions about the future of the internet?
    A: Judges, Lawyers, and Legislators..right?

    Q: What is the median age of most of these guys/gals?
    A: 45+ -- many in their 50s

    THEY DON'T UNDERSTAND THE TECHNOLOGY they are making precedence on. PERIOD

    This is our biggest problem. The gray hairs are making all the decisions...and don't understand that current laws don't exactly work when it comes to the internet.

    Sorry to be ageist...but that's the only thing that makes sense as to why politicians and judges make the backward decisions they make.

     

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    satan, Oct 9th, 2006 @ 4:19pm

    The Judge

    The judge needs to be removed for being so stupid

     

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    Jack, Oct 10th, 2006 @ 6:43am

    Does the Judge have an email address?

    Maybe if we all forward to him every single piece of spam we get, he'll start to realize spam isn't such a great thing after all.

     

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      Enrico Suarve, Oct 10th, 2006 @ 10:54am

      Re: Does the Judge have an email address?

      Dude you're talking about a guy who stated that part of the penalty imposed should be that Spamhaus put a 1" x 1" disclaimer on their website stating that Mr Linhardt wasn't a spammer etc - how the hell is anyone going to read that?

      I'd be surprised if he has a computer!

       

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    Brad F., Oct 13th, 2006 @ 8:38am

    SPAMHAUS LISTS FALSE AND FRAUDULENT CLAIMS AGAINST

    First of all I am not a spammer. I do not send unwanted email, viruses, trojans, or any other unwanted piece of e-mail to anyone, anywhere, ever.

    The company I work for, which will remain unmentioned, has recently been listed on spamhaus.org simply because an affiliate (who was recently TERMINATED BY US BECAUSE OF SPAMMING!!!) sent out an e-mail blast FROM HIS OWN E-MAIL SERVER with a link to one of OUR websites.

    This is just plain wrong. For my company to have its entire business put on hold while our ISP is forced to get involved to remove us from this list is unacceptable.

    Let me paint a picture for you:

    Joe Smith is a spammer. He wants to send a million e-mails out to users all over the world with a link to google.com. Someone is unhappy that they got this unwanted e-mail and they complain to spamhaus and as a result, google.com is blacklisted. So now the entire corporate office at google is unable to send e-mail simply because Joe Smith sent an unauthorized e-mail containing a link to google.com

    Doesn't sound right, does it?

    It's not right, and its totally unacceptable and I wish that someone would do something about it.

    Not only that, but other companies that we do business with have listings on spamhaus.org regarding them as "Basically a hide-your-website service for spammers" when in reality they have absolutely no idea what the real deal is.

    The real deal is that there are legitimate businesses who are trying to make a living just like everyone else, and every once in a while someone comes along and abuses their privilages.

    You cannot punish legitimate companies for being the victim of abuse.

    But that is exactly what spamhaus.org is doing.

    Their description of our business was "Paying [spammer] to spam redirectors to their website".

    First of all, the website they are referring to is a legitimate offer. Secondly, we DID NOT AND WILL NOT PAY [spammer] FOR ANY FRAUDULENT ACTIVITY INCLUDING SPAMMING!!!!!

    If I posted false information about you that was publicly available to the entire world, would you be upset?

    Would you take action against me? I would hope that you would.

     

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      John, Oct 18th, 2006 @ 7:34pm

      Re: SPAMHAUS LISTS FALSE AND FRAUDULENT CLAIMS AGA

      First of all I am not a spammer. I do not send unwanted email, viruses, trojans, or any other unwanted piece of e-mail to anyone, anywhere, ever.

      The company I work for, which will remain unmentioned, has recently been listed on spamhaus.org simply because an affiliate (who was recently TERMINATED BY US BECAUSE OF SPAMMING!!!) sent out an e-mail blast FROM HIS OWN E-MAIL SERVER with a link to one of OUR websites.


      ----

      I have absolutly no pity for you whatsoever.

       

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      Ryan P., Dec 6th, 2006 @ 12:42am

      Re: SPAMHAUS LISTS FALSE AND FRAUDULENT CLAIMS AGA

      My company has also been falsely placed on the spamhause.org list when the real problem was that an unsuspecting employee with an infected laptop came in, connected via WiFi, and the trojan started spamming.

      If I had the resources to sue I would too!

       

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        Iain, Dec 16th, 2006 @ 7:16am

        Re: Re: SPAMHAUS LISTS FALSE AND FRAUDULENT CLAIMS

        Ryan P,


        If you are running a network then you have NO ONE to blame other than your CEO and or network admin (assuming you have one) for not having the proper tools in place to stop somone connected to your network from spamming, inavertenty or not.

         

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      •  
        identicon
        Alan Richardson, Feb 18th, 2007 @ 5:09am

        Re: Re: SPAMHAUS LISTS FALSE AND FRAUDULENT CLAIMS

        Sorry you have got to ask yourself these question.

        1. Why wasn't this Laptop upto date with latest dat files and scan engine.

        2. Who responsibility for making sure that all companies PC/Laptop are upto date with dat files and scan engine.

        3.Also this employee must have open a email or gone onto a web site that had a trojan on its source code.

        Somebody needs to take responsibility of the above actions

         

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      •  
        identicon
        Alan Richardson, Feb 18th, 2007 @ 5:10am

        Re: Re: SPAMHAUS LISTS FALSE AND FRAUDULENT CLAIMS

        Sorry you have got to ask yourself these question.

        1. Why wasn't this Laptop upto date with latest dat files and scan engine.

        2. Who responsibility for making sure that all companies PC/Laptop are upto date with dat files and scan engine.

        3.Also this employee must have open a email or gone onto a web site that had a trojan on its source code.

        Somebody needs to take responsibility of the above actions

         

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      •  
        identicon
        Alan Richardson, Feb 18th, 2007 @ 5:10am

        Re: Re: SPAMHAUS LISTS FALSE AND FRAUDULENT CLAIMS

        Sorry you have got to ask yourself these question.

        1. Why wasn't this Laptop upto date with latest dat files and scan engine.

        2. Who responsibility for making sure that all companies PC/Laptop are upto date with dat files and scan engine.

        3.Also this employee must have open a email or gone onto a web site that had a trojan on its source code.

        Somebody needs to take responsibility of the above actions

         

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      •  
        identicon
        Alan Richardson, Feb 18th, 2007 @ 5:12am

        Re: Re: SPAMHAUS LISTS FALSE AND FRAUDULENT CLAIMS

        Sorry you have got to ask yourself these question.

        1. Why wasn't this Laptop upto date with latest dat files and scan engine.

        2. Who responsibility for making sure that all companies PC/Laptop are upto date with dat files and scan engine.

        3.Also this employee must have open a email or gone onto a web site that had a trojan on its source code.

        Somebody needs to take responsibility of the above actions

         

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    identicon
    Bill, Oct 13th, 2006 @ 11:15am

    Spamhaus Terrorists and blackmail

    all this is well and good,,,,,, but Steve linford ABUSES his list that is the fact. If you say anything bad about them they will shut off your home connection. (as I write from the Railroad wifi near my house that has no connection anymore. Spamhaus is a list for personal venedettas.

    I am not against lists. I am against people that ABUSE them



    Spamhaus Internet terrorists.

    Becoming what you oppose
    Editorial by Dave Hayes

    Many folks have asked me why I stopped "contributing" to the everlasting debates in NANA (news.admin.net-abuse.*). I generally respond with something along the lines of "I don't wish to become that which I oppose". Indeed, recently I've "plonked" several entities (among them the terrorists known as "spamhaus" and "spews") simply because I no longer wish to beat my head against the stone wall of ignorance.

    Terrorists? Yes that's right. One definition of "terrorism" is "attacking innocents in the name of your cause". Nowhere is this more ironic and extreme than in the deeds of my old nemesi, the anti-spammer zealotry collective, some of whom are now known as spamhaus and spews. The terrorism they practice is implemented in the form of "mail blacklists".

    Blacklists are not a new notion. In the 1950's, the infamous McCarthy blacklists contained names of "possible communists", which ultimately led us to a more sterile culture.

    The social costs of what came to be called McCarthyism have yet to be computed. By conferring its prestige on the red hunt, the state did more than bring misery to the lives of hundreds of thousands of Communists, former Communists, fellow travelers, and unlucky liberals. It weakened American culture and it weakened itself. ---Victor Navasky, Naming Names (New York: Viking Press, 1980)
    Modern internet technology has created our own version(s) of social blacklists. Many anti-spam zealots have turned to this method for freeing their mailboxes from spam. Simply expressed, these organizations maintain databases which are supposed to contain the IP addresses of known spammers. They then provide these databases to various electronic mail servers, so that the servers can reject email based on what's in these databases.

    The bottom line is, if the machine that sends your email is on this list, a number of mail servers will automatically reject all email from your server.

    If (and only if) they restricted these blacklists to actual spammers, I doubt very seriously that I would have problem with this practice. If we could trust human beings to maintain a logical and calm viewpoint about life, I doubt that I would have a problem with these blacklists. Unfortunately we cannot trust these things in either case.

    Fact: Spamhaus and spews have added innocent IP blocks to their blacklists.

    The anti-spammer idealotry goes like this: "Anyone who gets service from a network friendly to spammers is supporting the spammers and therefore our enemy." (The friend of my enemy is my enemy too?)

    So here's how this goes. Once a network provider is branded "a communist"...er excuse me..."a spammer", ALL of their IP ranges are blocked. Typically a network provider is providing services for smaller service providers, many of whom would never and have never engaged in spamming of any kind. No notice is really given on these blacklisting events, rather you find out when mail starts bouncing to some destination. Usually an end customer is the first to notice, and that customers is directed by the bounce to complain to...their own ISP!

    In essence, the customer is tricked into presenting the terrorist anti-spam agenda to the ISP. The ISP turns around and finds out that their provider (or provider's provider) is what the anti-spam zealots want "silenced". Until that target complies with their arbitrary agenda (usually of the form "stop spamming", but this is not always true...see below), everyone else has to suffer with electronic mail blocks.

    What's wrong with this? Everything.

    * First and foremost, the most often heard reason anti-spammers are so rabid about anti-spam is "it makes electronic mail unusable for average people". If this is true, then how does blocking innocent email help this situation? In fact, blacklisting innocents contributes to the problem. The hypocrisy here is so thick I doubt even a knife can cut it. * The dishonor of the practice of blacklists is amazing. Many naive internet mail administrators add blacklists like spamhaus "because they work to reduce spam". Lots of these sites have no idea that they are being cut off from legitimate email because of these machinations. If their customers really knew that they were cutoff, I wonder how many would still buy service? Getting rid of spam is one thing, blocking that key business email that means $100K in sales is quite another. Lets take this one step further. Person A buys email service from ISP X who is using Spamhaus to block spam email. Person A's daughter, who's income is very low due to being a student in college, buys email service from ISP Y (because it's cheap) who uses IAP S as their connectivity. ISP Y buys network from IAP S because it's cheap. Due to real life constraints, the only contact Person A has with their daughter is email. IAP S suddenly gets put on the anti-spam master blacklist. The same day, Person A's daughter has a car accident. A roommate desperately tries to send email to Person A but it's blocked. Worse, it's blocked because these zealots have an idealogical cause which is set up to be more important than a person's life. This is the height of dishonor. * The practice is quite criminal by many definitions and with criminals on all sides: o Any ISP that is blocked is told to "comply with our demands or be blacklisted" (a.k.a. extortion). o Attacking innocents in the name of their cause (a.k.a. terrorism). o Since the control of the blacklist is out of the hands of the service provider who subscribes to it, by law you must clearly state "random people may be blocked to your email box by other people who are not under our control" before selling "email services". I've never seen this stated on any ISP ad. (a.k.a false advertising) o Blacklisting ISPs is a good way of knocking them out of business (a.k.a restraint of trade) o If spam ever goes away, these organizations will also. Thus they have a vested interest in keeping spam alive (a.k.a playing both sides of the street)
    Do note that the anti-spammers claim these practices are not criminal and will "reduce economic support for the 'spam friendly' ISPs". This claim is quite erroneous:

    Fact: Spammer companies have far more money than most innocents.

    Yep, to the tune of millions of dollars per month. SPAM is big business. Do you think that the income of one little ISP with 1000 customers is going to make any difference against the large income of a spam company? No! All that does is clear more bandwidth for the spammers to use, should the little ISP cave in and switch to another provider.

    While there's no proof (that I'm aware of), it's not so far fetched to open up questions of collusion between "the providers that are anti-spam" and the "anti-spam blacklists". Certain providers, to compete, may pay the blacklist groups lots of money to keep attacking innocents, which gets them more customers in the long run as ISPs fold because they cant afford the connectivity provided by the "anti-spam supporter" providers.

    I've established some things here:

    1. In my opinion, blacklists are bad. 2. The anti-spammers are resorting to clearly criminal activities to further their goals: extortion, restraint-of-trade, terrorism. 3. The effect the anti-spammers are trying to have by blocking innocents only works to destroy email connectivity, the cure is worse than the disease.
    This brings me to my concluding point. The original complaint against spammers included accusations of being criminal. Most spammers are considered criminal. Yet look at the anti-spammers! In their undying eternal zeal to end spam, they have become just what they oppose! Criminals and email destroyers. Gee, isn't this what they call the spammers?

    The aware person realizes that fighting something only makes it stronger. Indeed, when you see two people rabidly on one side or the other, it's very hard to distinguish the two. They almost appear to be the same person, willing to commit any atrocity for the sake of their ideology or economics. What more do I need to know?

    So, in a roundabout way, that's why I don't participate. I've done my days of tilting at windmills. I've presented my pearls, but the swine didn't hear any of them. They've misrepresented my position countless times for their own agendas, failed to understand even the most basic of the concepts I've explained, and twisted what I've said to make me out to be something I am not. ("Spam supporter"...lol)

    I have finally realized that it has less to do with the ability to understand, it's mostly that they are not willing to understand. So in that climate I should once again venture forth into that primal never-ending argumentia that is NANA?

    No. I'm sorry. I have far better things to do.

     

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      identicon
      Rod, Aug 12th, 2007 @ 2:04am

      Re: Spamhaus Terrorists and blackmail

      I operate a web site and never send spam. I have not been able to contact my clients by email for over two days due to spamhause. If Spamhause is operates a service it should operate one actually works and not one that is an apology. Until then they are terrorists and are ruining the confidence my clients have in me. For that I should be able to claim damages from them.

       

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    identicon
    JG, Oct 13th, 2006 @ 11:35am

    FYI, the judge is 68.

    It looks like Spamhaus' lawyers in the US screwed up by saying that the case should be moved to the federal court "because this court has jurisdiction". Spamhaus did not want to waste money defnding this and other cases that spammers have said they intend to bring (quote "death by a thousand cuts") and withdrew. The judge had little option but to make a default ruling.

    The ICANN order has not been signed yet. i hope he signs it - i would like to see the top level domains put with the ITU and not with a US commercial company.

    BTW EU law (including UK) prevents any entity sending spam, telephoning, faxing, etc without having prior permission from the recipient. If any of these spammers turn up to enforce claims in the UK or elsewhere in the EU, they may well get arrested (it is not a matter of civil law).

    If the US had a similar law, there wouldn't be such a problem with spam, spammers and blocklists.

     

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    identicon
    fred, Oct 18th, 2006 @ 10:49am

    Spamhaus Fraud

    Spamhaus.org charges a whopping $14500 per year for a blacklist
    they don't even own! To verify these charges, visit this page:

    http://www.spamhaus.org/datafeed/pricecalculator.lasso


    More facts:
    ----------


    The XBL list that comes in the spamhaus.org data feed is in
    reality the CBL list at http://cbl.abuseat.org. That list is *not*
    owned by spamhaus.org. All spamhaus.org does is copy (download)
    the information X number of times a day to their own servers
    before feeding it to unsuspecting corporations.


    The CBL list has been renamed to XBL by the very cunny(!) folk at
    spamhaus.org so that no-one could possibly notice the fraud.
    Furthermore, spamhaus.org is selling the rebranded CBL list which
    makes up over 90% of the total value of the data feed for up to
    $14500 pa, when anyone including corporations and ISPs can get
    the *same feed* for *FREE* by filling in this simple form:


    http://www.cbl.abuseat.org/rsync-signup.html


    This is blatant fraud because by mixing their highly *ineffective*
    SBL list with the CBL list, Spamhaus gives the false impression of
    their own SBL list being a powerful spam filter. This is a
    marketing con, just as ROKSO is a PR ploy.


    The stark reality which spamhaus.org has been trying to sweep
    under the carpet in the last 3 years is, without the CBL list
    spamhaus.org would have been bankrupt by now. Without the CBL
    list, Steve, John et al, would not have been able to rake in
    hundreds of thousands of easy dollars from corporations and
    government institutions gullible enough to believe the
    spamhaus.org PR.

     

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    identicon
    Jim, Oct 29th, 2006 @ 11:18pm

    Spamhaus Abuse

    Just because I said bad things about spamhaus. They contacted my ISP and threatened them into shutting off my Internet connection. I did not spam all I did was write a bad comment about spamhaus. they told my provider that if they did not shut me off they would blacklist them for 6 months. I am not in the email business in any way. These guys abuse their power. stay away from them. the word NAZI comes to mind.

     

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    identicon
    Jake, Nov 29th, 2006 @ 3:06pm

    Spamhaus Deserves everything they get

    Hooray!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    These extortionists should be sued, shut down and jailed. I'm all for it!!!!

     

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    identicon
    Mike, Nov 29th, 2006 @ 4:49pm

    Spamhaus do block websites

    Today I attenpted to login into my admin panel of my website only to be greeted by this massage:

    Your request was intercepted by security software which protects the
    Web site you visited from malicious activity, such as hackers, spam
    and viruses. We apologize for the inconvenience, but your request
    matched a profile of suspicious activity. This problem is usually
    quite easy to fix.

    Your computer's IP address was determined to have recently sent spam
    or engaged in malicious activity as reported by a third-party
    monitoring service. This means your computer is most likely infected
    with viruses or other malicious software. See below for more
    information and removal instructions.

    Your request was blocked because of malicious automated requests
    received from your computer's IP address.

    This problem may be caused by viruses or spyware on your computer, or
    by malicious software that pretends to be anti-virus or anti-spyware
    software. Ensure that you have REAL anti-virus and anti-spyware
    software on your computer, that they are kept up-to-date, and that you
    have run a full system scan using each tool. Once your system is
    cleaned of viruses and spyware, please try your request again.

    The free Google Pack provides trustworthy anti-virus and anti-spyware
    software.

    Blacklist Reason(s):

    http://www.spamhaus.org/query/bl?ip=xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx

    I had to go to their website and apply to get de-blacklisted. I am not a spammer. I was only trying to access my website. I could go anywhere else on the net but not login into my site... so who said they only put out a list they dont do anything else? Bullshit.

     

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      identicon
      Hippo Man, Nov 30th, 2006 @ 1:43am

      Re: Spamhaus do *NOT* block websites

      When you connected to your web site, the company which provides hosting services did a query to Spamhaus's list and received a short message in response to their query which looks something like this:

      http://www.spamhaus.org/query/bl?ip=xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx

      The several paragraphs of text you quoted here which contains that single line was generated by your hosting provider, not by Spamhaus.

      Going to Spamhaus's website and following their procedure gets you delisted, so that your hosting provider won't see that single-line message again when they query Spamhaus's list.

      In other words, it was your hosting provider who decided to read Spamhaus's list, block your access, and print out that message. So how does any of this indicate that Spamhaus is doing anything other than supplying and managing a list?

       

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    identicon
    Joe Spammer, Dec 16th, 2006 @ 9:41am

    Spamhaus ate my Hamster!

    I agree with all the other spammers' comments, I too hate Spamhaus because they interfere with my legitimate spam business. They also threatened my ISP that if he did not set fire to my server they would dynamite his building!!! And they demanded I pay them $50,000 to get off their list!!! And they ate my hamster!

     

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    identicon
    Frank van Schuilenburg, Jan 7th, 2007 @ 6:58pm

    New vision ?

    Hi,

    Why is everyone so in favor of Spamhaus ? The way they operate (blocking IP's rather than domains) blocks far more innocent people/domains than the sole spammer who by accident resides on the same shared IP server !!

    My customers have been blocked out 2 times last month for almost 24 hours for no real reason. Maybe I should start a lawsuit against them (in the UK) to let them pay for the damage they caused to them AND me ...

    Cheers

    Frank

     

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    identicon
    James, Jan 9th, 2007 @ 2:41pm

    Spamhaus - Shut Them Down!!!

    Get these Net Luniticsoff once and for all. They are the lowest of the lows

     

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    identicon
    Pete, Jan 9th, 2007 @ 2:45pm

    RE: Spamhaus - Shut Them Down!!!

    Bravo! Well said, James!!!!

     

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    identicon
    Timothy, Jan 10th, 2007 @ 3:22pm

    Spamhaus Attack

    Well, I detest spam and appreciate groups trying to stop spam, but Spamhaus has been attacking my professional list for reference librarians, Project Wombat. The blacklisting has crippled inter-library communications and Spamhaus refuses to do anything about it. Spamhaus has grown too powerful and considers itself to be the law - but a law without a court of appeal. Methinks perhaps shutting down Spamhaus might be a good idea.

     

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      identicon
      Bob, Jan 17th, 2007 @ 5:43am

      Re: Spamhaus Attack

      I have no sympathy for Spamhaus...

      I run a legitimate e-commerce business and can't even send an invoice to a good half of my customers because Spamhaus blacklists IP ranges.

      Pleads to have my IP removed from their list has fallen on deaf ears.

      Spamhaus has appointed themselves judge, jury and Executioner

      The sooner they go out of business the better, I will rely on a personal spam blocker for my email, so I CAN decide what’s spam.

       

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    identicon
    Laura Kate, Jan 24th, 2007 @ 5:29pm

    Gate.com's alliance with Spamhause cost me $23,000

    ....when my ability to send email was abruptly and without warning, cut off by this Spamhaus company. I was unable to get necessary files to a very large client and was completely unable to fix the problem by going through all the Spamhouse "fixes."

    My email and web host told me, with NO hesitation, there is NOTHING they will do for me for this "inconvenience."

    I'm a small advertising agency - this is a HUGE hit for me financially and I have NO idea why my ISP was "blacklisted."

    I'm just sick about this. This really hurt my business.

     

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    identicon
    Bonnie Ray Billybob, Feb 7th, 2007 @ 3:52am

    Spamhaus stopped my spam - I'm gonna sue them too!

    I agree with all the spammers here that Spamhaus are commie-nazis, they deliberately stopped me from spamming when it's perfectly legal to send spam!! Who gave them the right to stop us spammers??

    I think Spamhaus should be put out of business and the luzers who hate our spam should be forced by law to receive it and press delete if they don't want it. Spamming is our right! How dare some english organization tell us americans we can not send spam?!! Go judge Kocoras!!!

     

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    identicon
    Alan Richardson, Feb 18th, 2007 @ 4:38am

    Spamhaus

    I believe in Spamhaus, it is a service for small companies/corporate companies to rely on, as it says on their web site.

    "Every Internet network that chooses to implement spam filtering is, by doing so, making a policy decision governing acceptance and handling of inbound email. The Receiver unilaterally makes the choices on whether to use DNSBLs, which DNSBLs to use, and what to do with an incoming email if the email message's originating IP Address is "listed" on the DNSBL. The DNSBL itself, like all spam filters, can only answer whether a condition has been met or not"

    It is purely down to the System Manager or Exchange manager to filter access connection request on to their system.

    I am fed up with spammers using my bandwith up with their Junk.

     

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    identicon
    Eric, Feb 24th, 2007 @ 8:12am

    Spamhaus - TERRIBLE

    Hello,

    This is by far one of the worst organizations I have ever heard of. Their goal is great. Their support and response times are terrible. They havent replied to me in over 48 hours or more. I am shocked about the terrible things ive heard and read about this company on the internet. This company is the reason our business site along with a few hundred clients is currently offline. I have done everything within my power to contact this company to try to reach a resolution. I have received no reply. In my opinion a company that has so much leverage in the hosting world shouldnt be a 'FREE' or 'Voulenteer' organization. My COMPANY is offline based on someones 'FREE' time. Why me and hundreds of clients stress some guy in the UK is having another ale/beer.


    My 2 cents,

    Eric
    www.BitTraffic.com

     

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    identicon
    sfasdf, Feb 26th, 2007 @ 8:00pm

    screw spamhaus

    screw spamhaus, they are nothing but fascists who have no right to block internet traffic. for all of you ninnys who dont like spam, DONT USE EMAIL. The internet is chaos it has no rules, leave it alone and if you dont like spam, come up with a better idea than email and stop whining.

     

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    identicon
    ChrisTerry, Mar 5th, 2007 @ 2:14am

    How Do I Contact These Spamhaus Plonkers!

    Ok, so Spamhaus assume I am a spammer because I have a dynamic IP address. What if I am not? Like other contributors to this forum, I am trying to run a legitimate operation using my dynamic IP addressed domestic broadband connection. How the hell do you contact these people to get your IP address un-blacklisted. I cannot seem to load thier webpage, will they deny my viewing thier site if I am on thier blacklist too? Its all very well punishing someone for unacceptable conduct, but what has happened to the RIGHT OF APPEAL?

    I recently heard Spamhaus had been subjected to a denial of service attack. While I believe the expression "An Eye For An Eye" is wrong in our age of technology. In this case, I fully support the actions of the purps.

    We, honest, law abiding internet users are being persicuted and judged by the opinions of these Spamhaus idiots. My question is: who actually set out the rule book for thier voluntary organisation, and as this problem is a global phenomena, who approved their ideals.

    This organisation must be made to PAY (and be disposed of) for expenses incurred due to loss of service caused by thier FLAWED set of ideals. I really do hope they go away soon!

     

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    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Mar 17th, 2007 @ 12:13am

    Spamhaus Scam

    In a recent real-time test run, the SBL block list (operated by
    spamhaus.org) could only detect 25 unique spams out of 63,000+ spam
    emails. Unique spams mean spam emails that could not be detected by a
    combination of other FREELY available block lists such as:

    URIBL : www.uribl.com
    SURBL : www.surbl.org
    CBL : cbl.abuseat.org
    SPAMCOP : www.spamcop.com
    DCC : www.rhyolite.com/anti-spam/dcc
    UCEPROTECT L1 : www.uceprotect.net
    NJABL-DUL : www.njabl.org

    SBL is made up of 2 components: The SBL and the URIBL_SBL which
    detects spamvertized URLs inside the body text of emails. The 25
    unique spams caught by SBL in the test run included both
    components.

    As any enlightened insider involved with anti-spam filtering will tell
    you: spamhaus.org/linford is nothing but a PR machine based on pulling
    the wool over the unsuspecting and gullible system admins' eyes with
    obscure data and unproven claims. Some of these admins have been
    conned by the spamhaus/linford PR machine to such an extent that they
    cough up a whopping $14,500 every year for the privilege of
    subscribing to a worthless list capable of detecting roughly 400
    unique spams for every 1,000,000 (1 million) spam emails.

    On its front page, spamhaus claims "a spam-free world just a few
    clicks away"... What a joke, mister linford !

     

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    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Mar 27th, 2007 @ 8:04pm

    stop spamhaus

    It is really hard for me to see spamhaus as a hero. As far as I am concerned they are worst than the spammers. They will block the whole block of IP, if there is just one spammer in that block. The fact is that if someone emails me, and I can't reply to there email, they think that I am ignoring them and they cancel. Costing me money. I guess that if you are a big internet company that you can just push the little guy out of business and nobody cares.

     

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    identicon
    akshay, Apr 22nd, 2007 @ 8:33am

    spamhaus

    i think it is wrong on the part of spamhaus

     

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    JL, Jun 1st, 2007 @ 8:28pm

    Spamhaus

    So what do you do when they block whole provinces in China - that's places larger than Britain, because of 10+ listed spammers coming from there. I say shut down Spamhaus, they're the virtual equivalent of a rentacop.

     

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    identicon
    SaveUs, Jun 19th, 2007 @ 2:19am

    US Law

    US Law is just that!. We have our own laws and the US juducial system has no rights over us. Long live our right to rule our lands free of some judge in a far off country called the USA thinking he has some kind of right to tell an international body what to do. As for Spamhaus you don't always get it right but you are doing a good job - keep up the good work and stuff what some trumped up fool of a judge has to say.
    Say NO to SPAMMERS and protect our rights.

     

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      identicon
      loseing clients, Jun 21st, 2007 @ 1:25pm

      Re: US Law

      yeah right

      i work for a company as tech/software support and we send out bi-annuel newsletters. well we now have clients that can't get them even thoguh they want them because some spam company decided it was spam.

      how do you know what is spam and what isn't.

      you people that don't know how to avoid spam or deal with spam with out someone holding your hand need to DIE and i mean that die cause your not helping this world we are trying to move forward and your incompitance and lack of common sense is killing us

      kthxbi sux boi

       

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    identicon
    CMS, a humble servant leader asking questions, Jun 26th, 2007 @ 5:19pm

    Winning war against terrors of false, bogus & "fri

    Could it be that those humble servant leaders (who are fighting our Nation's # 1 Crime: Fraud and related crimes, including spamming)need to find a lawyer who will create a vehicle that they can fight out of without being defeated with judgments? Could that legal vehicle be the result of estate planning? Could one of those vehicles be a trust? Could those spammers who sue the humble servant leader's trust only obtain "charging orders" that allert the IRA to step in and collect taxes on "charging order?" Could the spammer ever get the assets referred to in the "charging order when the humble servant leaders have the sole right to distribute the assets?
    Why do intelligent professionals check to see if there is a trust before suing? Could it be that an attorney firm paid $74,000 in taxes and never got the assets referred to in the "Charging order?"

    Should you seek an attorney with trust expertise?

    Should all claims and complaints brought before the court be questions for the court to determine without being subjected to libel and/or slander counterclaims?

    1. Legal Disclaimers: Humble Servant Leaders (HSL) d/b/a an international Moral Law and Ethical Justice Center, an Trust, including trademark(s), copyright(s) and other international venture resources empowering legal, educational and other professional humble servant leaders ministering to the needs of others to help the Independent Inspector General (hired in 2006 by the US House of Representatives’ Justice Committee and the Sub-Committee on Crime, Terrorism and Homeland Security) and all types of other enforcers to “Protect the Public” (our Nation’s citizens, guests, entities and agencies) with our Nation’s & World’s Triune Justice System (our existing, separate and independent Moral, Ethical and Legal Justice Systems) from our Nation’s and World’s # 1 Crime (Fraud) and related crimes (caused by Racketeer Influenced Corrupt Organization (RICO) “Enterprise Group’s” and/or individual conspiracies to repeatedly perpetuate the careers of career criminals and their RICO crimes, False Claims, and other crimes’ despicable devastating impacts on our culture of relativism) with the spirit of cooperation (for common economic and other valuable benefits) that complements each other’s skills with the absolute truth and values of our founding fathers, freedom’s only hope.
    2. HSL has not reviewed any or all of the web sites linked from this Site and is not responsible for the content of any off-site pages or any other web sites linked to this Site. Please understand that any non-HSL web site is independent from the educational ministry to the needs of others, and HSL has no control over the content on that web site. In addition, a link to a non-HSL web site does not mean that the educational ministry to the needs of others endorses or accepts any responsibility for the content, or the use, of such site. It is the user's sole responsibility to take precautions to ensure that whatever is selected is free of such items as viruses, worms, Trojan horses and other legal, ethical or moral items of a destructive nature but not free from “The Lack of Moral Justice, Why Our Legal System Fails to Do What’s Right,” by Thane Rosenbaum, professor of humanities, literature and law at Fordham Law School in New York City, award winning novelist of several books, essayists in national media/publications or the lack of “The Absolutes, Freedom’s Only Hope,” by James Robison, etc. Therefore consult your attorney for legal counsel before any actions of any kind whatsoever. We are not giving legal advice or acting as an attorney or lawyer in any manner whatsoever, and never intended or intend to do so in the past, present or f uture.
    3. Information HSL publishes on its Site may contain references or cross references to HSL specifications, projects, programs and services that are not announced or available in all countries. Such references do not imply that HSL intends to announce such specifications, projects, programs or services in all countries.
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    Please note that some jurisdictions may not allow the exclusion of implied warranties, so some of the above exclusions may not apply to you.
    6. IN NO EVENT WILL HSL BE LIABLE TO ANY PARTY FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, SPECIAL OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES FOR ANY USE OF THIS SITE, OR ON ANY OTHER HYPERLINKED WEB SITE, INCLUDING, WITHOUT LIMITATION, ANY LOST PROFITS, BUSINESS INTERRUPTION, LOSS OF PROGRAMS OR OTHER DATA ON YOUR INFORMATION HANDLING SYSTEM OR OTHERWISE, EVEN IF HSL IS EXPRESSLY ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES. IN NO EVENT SHALL HSL DIRECTORS, OFFICERS OR EMPLOYEES BE LIABLE FOR INCIDENTAL OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES OF ANY KIND ARISING FROM OR RELATED TO USE OF HSL TRADEMARK, INCLUDING ECONOMIC DAMAGES AND LOST PROFITS, REGARDLESS OF WHETHER HSL SHALL BE ADVISED, SHALL HAVE OTHER REASON TO KNOW, OR IN FACT SHALL KNOW OF THE POSSIBILITY OF THE FOREGOING.

     

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    spamhaus sucks, Sep 5th, 2007 @ 1:53am

    spamhaus sucks

    i do my own business at home.
    i send out many email from my dsl connection a day.
    but i dont think i'm sending spam because i send only one email to one mailbox in several months.

    but unfortunately , many of my outgoing e-mails were blocked
    due to the spamhaus block list.

    in fact, i think they have to pay for all loss of my business.

    they are standing over the line of doing good thing and
    turn to evil.

     

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    Jake, Oct 24th, 2007 @ 11:35am

    Shut these Natzis Down!!!!

    Shut these Natzis Down!

    Who the hell are they to say what goes in my email box. They even have the nerve to blacklist anyone who they feel are sending out ads, some enjotable to read and of interest to me. If no one wanted the ads, why do people buy from them. How dare these pieces of garbage have such power over the entire internet. They deserve more than a 11 million dollar judgement against them, they deserve jail time.

     

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    identicon
    Jake, Oct 24th, 2007 @ 11:37am

    Shut these Natzis Down!!!!

    Shut these Natzis Down!

    Who the hell are they to say what goes in my email box. They even have the nerve to blacklist anyone who they feel are sending out ads, some enjotable to read and of interest to me. If no one wanted the ads, why do people buy from them. How dare these pieces of garbage have such power over the entire internet. They deserve more than a 11 million dollar judgement against them, they deserve jail time.

     

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    identicon
    Betty, Jan 7th, 2008 @ 4:00pm

    SpamHaus

    Spamhaus is nothing more than a terrorist organization, and the guy who operates it is as nuts as the unibomber. People blindly think this organization helps stop spam and is ethical. They're so wrong! Spamhaus only ruins small legitimate web companies that get on their bad list. This is not the way to stop spam.

    I worked for a web company that Spamhaus harrassed a few years ago. The head at Spamhaus kept accusing the company of stuff they didn't do and of having associations with spammers whom they never even knew and he drove the company into the ground by getting their email blocked all over the net. His accusations ultimately resulted in the company's demise, the loss of my job, and the foreclosure of my home.

    Now, I see that I'm on some kind of a block list, and I've never sent spam in my life. I have a small membership based graphics design business, and now, I can't get my emails to my customers. That's totally crazy. And I don't see why Yahoo and other major sites bow down to this insane organization.

    I'm glad they lost this lawsuit. I've been waiting for someone to sue the hell of out them for their illegal practices, which is clearly a violation of American rights. I hope we see more suits against them. I would love to see them hit with a major class action lawsuit.

     

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    Captain Tom, Jan 9th, 2008 @ 11:10am

    Go Spamhaus

    I think you guys are doing a bang up job, by looking at the above messages it looks like the spammers are really bitching.

    As far as that judge, I think he's getting paid off by the spammers.

    Keep up the good work spamhaus!!!!

    Bring back - "Make Love not Spam" Lycos!!!! In just a couple of days the spammers were hurting....

    We need more anti-spam org's out there to fight these spammers!

    I HATE SPAM!!!

     

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      identicon
      Mike, Feb 6th, 2008 @ 8:52pm

      Re: Go Spamhaus

      Spamhaus did not show up in court, right? It may be inconvenient, but you gotta show up in court to defend yourself.

      I have had problems with RBL's being too aggressive, maybe worse that some spammers.

      But basically, spammers should burn in hell. They have no legitmate place in the food chain. I do not think the ads are even for real products most of the time, which makes you wonder why it exists to begin with.

       

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    identicon
    Jake, Jan 20th, 2008 @ 6:24am

    Spamhaus are Nazi''s who should be put out of busi

    Spamhaus are Nazi's who should be put out of business.
    I have bought many things through email marketing, as so any people do. Who is Spamhaus to block what I see.

    If I dont like it, I simply press delete, just as I change tv channels when I don't like a product being advertising. For the most part you are all very ignorant people.

     

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    identicon
    Jake, Jan 20th, 2008 @ 6:24am

    Spamhaus are Nazi''s who should be put out of busi

    Spamhaus are Nazi's who should be put out of business.
    I have bought many things through email marketing, as so any people do. Who is Spamhaus to block what I see.

    If I dont like it, I simply press delete, just as I change tv channels when I don't like a product being advertising. For the most part you are all very ignorant people.

     

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    identicon
    Kathy, Jan 20th, 2008 @ 6:36am

    DON'T CENSOR MY EMAIL!

    Jake, you are absolutely right.
    It's my mail, I'll do what I want with it. If I see something I'm interested in, I want the freedom to order it if I want. If not, I'll delete it. All it takes is a press of a button and it's gone. Is it that hard that people have to make such a big deal out of it?
    Spamhaus has no right to tell me what I want to see. These are ads people. Ads like you see on tv or in newspapers or through the US Post Office. Get over it.
    Stop telling me what I can or can't see.

    Who does Spamhaus think they are? Nazis? Yes! Big Brother? Yes!

    Shut down Spamhaus so that I can make my own choices!

     

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    identicon
    Reggie, Feb 6th, 2008 @ 1:02pm

    its not censoring...its filtering

    Kathy and Jake....here is my problem. I dont want a spammer sending me 15000 ads every day. You know why...because my time is valuable and i dont have 15000 seconds (at a minimum) to waste pressing delete ever day. Maybe you dont have a life or a job or a family. Maybe you do. Maybe you have time to do that...but i dont. I need to know who is more likely to fill my inbox with crap...because it is MY inbox...not the spammers. You know whats really funny....if you ever click on a link...oh i'm sorry an "ad" (as if it was legitimate) 99% of the time it doesnt work...so even if i wanted to buy their "fake-me-out" viagra or subscribe to a porn site...i couldnt...because it doesnt work. The internet exists to help me not hinder me. If you want to drown in spam every day....enjoy. I support spamhaus, and whoever else has a RBL that will help me filter out all the BS thats floating around out there. I think that you should analyze why you are afraid of big brother, if you arent doing anything you dont want him to see.

     

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    Golf Nut, Feb 22nd, 2008 @ 10:14pm

    The bed was made... lie in it

    People have a lot of trouble admitting our collective culpability... spam IS a problem. It's like fishing too much out of the same lake... eventually there will not be any fish any more or the fish will learn all your tricks and figure out how to avoid you.

     

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    Bruce, Feb 26th, 2008 @ 11:30pm

    Spam Reporting Abuse

    Spam is a serious problem. A growing, vile epidemic. The problem with Spamhaus however is that it is subject to gross abuse itself from competitors, disgruntled employees or just about anybody just having a bad day and feeling vendictive or mischievious. Spamhaus just reports based on feedback it is given without its own filtering service or due diligence to ensure all that are arbitrarily added to the list are legitimate spammers. Such shortcomings undermine its value and are potentially and seriously damaging to those legitimate businesses caught in the middle - to which they must stand up and answer in both the court of law and the court of public opinion until they can adequately resolve those issues.

     

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    Jon T., Apr 10th, 2008 @ 6:46pm

    spamhaus class action??

    No one likes spam, but being blacklisted for no reason is worse than deleting spam!!

    My server ip has been blacklisted in a range of ips. There is no one on my server creating spam and no one on my server listed as an offender. The offending ip is different than mine yet my ip has been blacklisted along with 8 other ips.

    I am considering filing a motion against them for damages as this is not the first time this has happened. The interruption in service has caused a loss of business that is measurable in dollars.

    They have blacklisted my ip with no basis. My ip is in no way being used for spam.

    When I advised them that this mistake was costing me business, and that there could be some legal ramifications..they sent my reply to the abuse dept. at my isp!! They cited my plea to be de-listed as groundless and threatening!

    The nerve of some people!! Why cant they just admit their mistake and de-list my ip!

    Anyone up for a class action lawsuit?? After reading this thread it looks like these guys are working outside the law as it is.

    The point is, they can't blacklist innocent users and if they do they have to own up to it and fix the problem.

    Jon T.

     

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    shawn, Apr 11th, 2008 @ 3:57am

    Spamhaus

    Its interesting reading through some of the miseducated posts here. You will only end up on a blacklist if YOUR exchange/mail admin simply does not know what he is doing. Ignorance is NOT bliss on the internet and because of the anonymous nature of SMTP flaws can be found and security measures circumvented by spammers who are more and more wiley in there ways of exploiting PC`s and servers and creating botnots and drones to do there work.

    There simply is no such thing as an innocent user. If you are not aware that you need to have adequate protection on your network and your network is relaying spam or malicious mail then you will be blacklisted.Furthermore if your not aware of the maclious nature of the internet and educate yourselves on providing adequate proctection for your LAN then you shouldnt even be using a PC. Either way the blame lies with yourselves. Spam makes up an enormous percentage of unsolicted mail. 9 times out of 10 its spurious and causes a ton of work for mail server admins like myself.

     

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    identicon
    Jon T., Apr 11th, 2008 @ 8:22am

    that is not right

    yea,

    i really enjoyed being called miseducated and ignorant in that last post. It's really great to know how spamhouse really feels when people are loosing their ass becasue of their oversight.

    How does blacklisting an ip because it is similar a spammers ip in range make it my fault my ip was blacklisted? You found a spammer, then blacklisted anyone who has an ip similar to his. That is not a fair practice and everyone here knows it.

    There should be a seperate listing for each ip. That is why it may be necessary to take legal action. This problem needs to be addressed before it affects any more of us ignorant users.

    After more than 24 hours my server is still unable to send email as a result of this erroneous listing. all you can do is lash out at me while I continue to loose business.

    No spam ever came from my ip, however spamhaus has blacklisted it anyway. Why don't you go after the spammers rather than roughing up innocent small businesses.

    if you guys know so much and are such great guys, why has no one come forward in the last 20 hours to help me resolve this.

    you guys can sure dish it out, but you can't take it can you?

    How about some understanding and help?

     

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    identicon
    Jon T., Apr 11th, 2008 @ 10:29pm

    spamhaus will not reply to my request to be de-listed

    Hi,

    I just wanted to add that the sbl listing is public and can be found here:
    http://www.spamhaus.org/sbl/sbl.lasso?query=SBL64224

    My server ip and name is listed near the bottom in the rdns record, In that record I am: rocketmediahosting.net You can clearly see that my server is the odd man out. It has been unfairly grouped with a range of other servers not in my jusrisdiction.

    Hopefully this will answer any doubts about the authenticity of my claim.

    All non-spamming users should be concerned about this. If you are hosting websites using linux or cpanel, you should be especially concerned. It will affect all users on your server if it happens to your main ip (including your resellers!!).

    At this time my server ip has been blacklisted for almost 48 hours. I have tried to solve the problem from all angles, Spamhaus unfortuneately is simply not co-operating.

    If there are any further questions or ideas please post them.

    Regards,

    Jon T.

     

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    C. Ingred, May 15th, 2008 @ 2:07am

    Re: Spamhaus by shawn

    Spamhaus by shawn wrote on Apr 11th, 2008 @ 3:57am
    >There simply is no such thing as an innocent user.
    Spamhaus blocks dynamic IPs. The spammer renews their IP, throws the now blacklisted IP back in the IP pool, and continues spamming with a new IP.

    An innocent user gets assigned the blacklisted IP and now tries to send an urgent email. His email is intercepted by Spamhaus which detects the blacklisted IP in one of the "received:" fields and is denied.

    Hopefully the email wasn't very important, imagine if it was to warn of an impending catastrophe! (assuming email was the only available choice)

     

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    identicon
    C. Ingred, May 15th, 2008 @ 2:18am

    Re: Spamhaus by shawn

    Spamhaus by shawn wrote on Apr 11th, 2008 @ 3:57am
    >There simply is no such thing as an innocent user.
    Spamhaus blocks dynamic IPs. The spammer renews their IP, throws the now blacklisted IP back in the IP pool, and continues spamming with a new IP.

    An innocent user gets assigned the blacklisted IP and now tries to send an urgent email. His email is intercepted by Spamhaus which detects the blacklisted IP in one of the "received:" fields and is denied.

    Hopefully the email wasn't very important, imagine if it was to warn of an impending catastrophe! (assuming email was the only available choice)

     

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    Jim, Jul 22nd, 2008 @ 11:14am

    spamhaus

    Good - I hope they do get shut down. They caused me endless mail problems which I have only just resolved. Who are they to stop me sending legitimate business emails anyway???
    Grrr.

     

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      identicon
      AJM, Oct 10th, 2008 @ 4:46pm

      Re: spamhaus

      What did you have to do to get this fixed? I have had my mail shut down for over a week.
      I have run 4 major spyware programs and nothing. Yet I am blocked.

       

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    lek, Sep 11th, 2008 @ 8:19pm

    good riddence

    if spamhouse goes I say good riddence. they make it impossible for me to reply to emails even though I use a goverment owned server. spamhouse is a joke.

     

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    Dave, Nov 27th, 2008 @ 7:53am

    Spamhaus becoming virus?

    I recently found out Spamhaus was blocking my personal email to my local school district, the district had subscribe to Spamhaus free program. MY email is my own personal account run through Verizon never used for SPAM. If they blocked mine who else are they blocking? Yours?

    It stand to reason their service will fast become useless for business if they block your customers from reaching you!

     

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    identicon
    huh, Jan 6th, 2009 @ 8:02pm

    All of you people are too quick to pick sides. Your assuming the guys is a spammer because spamhaus says he is. Did you know that a bunch of guys pissed off the owner of spamhaus, so he in returned contacted Austria and told them to remove the guys domains from the acceptable list. When Austria refused, spamhaus shut down their mail for a couple days.

    Spamhaus has too big of an ego with an asshole for a president. They simply have too much power for their immature minds.

    I recently set up my own mail server. It was something I was interested in checking out. Seeing if I could be self-sufficient on the internet not having to pay webhosting and email fees. So I go ahead and set it up only to find out that anytime I send mail to any "large" email server (yahoo) it is automatically blocked. Why? Because spamhaus blocks ALL personal IP's from sending email. Who the F gave them that power?

    So what spamhaus does is approaches Yahoo and says "Hey, buy our antispam software for $5k. Yahoo says hell no. Spamhaus says "If you don't, we will put your domain on the blacklist which means your customers can't send email to two thirds of the worlds email services. Yahoo has no choice. So now Yahoo carries around their blacklist from spamhaus that blocks whoever the hell they please...including all personal domains.

     

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  •  

    Spamhaus Sucks

    These guys are bullshit. You don't use fucking 3rd party blacklists you stupid morons, you dont block spam with a 3rd party black list at the network level.

    Fuck these guys. I fucking hate brits.

     

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    identicon
    john, Feb 1st, 2009 @ 7:02am

    Another victim of spamhaus' defective program

    My email to my customer is being blocked on a regular basis. My email from verizon is authenticated. My computer is free of viruses. I send email one at a time to my customer, who I know for years.
    I don't send spam or multilple emails and never did.
    Yet Spamhaus has blocked my emails for the following three weeks. I go thru the exercise with their system, get a day or two of email then it is blocked again.
    Spamhaus does not answer email requests for assistance.
    Their website is useless to the victims of their arbitrary and incompetent programming.

     

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    Morris, Mar 21st, 2009 @ 4:59pm

    Spamhaus Should be Shut Down

    Spamhaus is just as bad as the worst spammers. They block legitimate emails and therefore are damaging business. They don't care if 200 legitimate email campaigns are shut down to find one illigitimate one.

     

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    Robert, Jun 11th, 2009 @ 4:41pm

    Spamhaus Definitely Should be Shut Down

    Spamhaus routinely blocks the ip addresses of good companies who do not spam. They are difficult to contact to have the block removed and have evaded a legal judgement against them. If a company wants to use a spam list, then they need to use a legitimate company and not some volunteer organization that could easily disappear tomorrow.

     

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    Neo Cai, Dec 14th, 2009 @ 12:27am

    I hate Spamhaus

    in the past 1 week, i almost get cracy because Spamhuas blocked our email server. Several machine in my IP range was listed on the Spamhaus block list, then they blocked whole IP range. i sent 3 or 4 times email to them. nobody reply to me. they say there are working 24x7. that is s.h.i.t. They are block several spam email sender, but in the same time, they block much more illegitimate company and without any reason. who support this company??????? any contact number?????? i want fxxx them.

     

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    identicon
    Gerardo Suarez, Feb 16th, 2010 @ 7:28pm

    Spamhause

    Hello:

    My name is Gerardo Suarez . I am a licensed attorney who alleges and believes that SPAMHAUS, its organization, its CEO and volunteers are engaged in RACKETEERING as defined under Title 18 of the United States Code Section 1961.

    If you or your company has been damaged by the acts of SPAMHAUSE, I would like to hear from you.

    I am interested in additional predicated acts of wrongdoings by SPAMHAUSE, their volunteers and of course their CEO. If your damages are real and if they were caused by acts of SPAMHAUSE, then I would like to include you in our action as additional predicated acts.

    For everyone’s information, the case of e360 Insight, LLC, et al. v SPAMHAUSE is scheduled for trial on March 16, 2010 at 10:30 AM. , before the Honorable Charles P. Kocoras in the United States District Court for the Northern District of Illinois Eastern Division. The case number is 06−cv−03958.

    We have a partial list of companies that have donated to SPAMHAUSE and it is my intent to take their depositions. If you have additional names and companies that have donated to Spamhause, please also contact me.

    In order to make sure we have a complete list, If are aware of any companies or individuals that are currently supporting Spamhause please contact me so I can add them to my list.

    This week I have meetings scheduled with the FBI and the SECRET SERVICE to determine what if any relationship Spamhause has with these agencies.

    All evidence collected will be submitted to the United States Department of Justice in addition to our action in hopes that they will take further action.

    When contacting me, please leave your complete name including your telephone number so I may contact you.

    If you are a SPAMMER, do not contact me. I am not here to assist or help Spammers or individuals or companies that engage in this type of activity. In fact, I believe that Spammers should be prosecuted.

    My E-Mail contact information is as follows:

    Gerardo Suarez, Esq.
    Email: gerardo@36.com.mx

     

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      Rob C, Mar 27th, 2010 @ 8:48pm

      Re: Spamhause

      Thank the lord. I thought the e360 case was closed awhile ago. Spamhaus are criminals themselves costing corporations millions of dollars every year because of their bully tactics!!

       

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    identicon
    Laurence G. D'Alberti - ChE, Mar 12th, 2010 @ 11:28am

    spamhaus.org

    We have been trying to e-mail the CCR (central contractor registry) for about a month. Spamhaus.org is blocking our e-mail. We have delisted from all of the blocks including the PBL (policy block list). Still cannot e-mail CCR. Spamhaus.org gives no contact information or e-mail address to file a complaint on their website. How do we get in touch with Steve Linford? What is his e-mail address?

     

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    identicon
    Jeff Macaluso, Jun 4th, 2010 @ 11:33am

    Re: Spamhaus

    I have been in business for 10 years selling equipment, now my e-mail is being blocked by spamhaus which I only use for comunication and onfirmation of orders This has put a expensive burden on my business and would like to know who is responsible. Who gives Spamhaus the right to block my e-mail when I send no spam at all. Who do I start a lawsuit against to stop this?

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  •  
    identicon
    bob, Oct 31st, 2010 @ 10:04am

    Spamhaus

    As I once read

    "Who's watching the watchers"

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  •  
    identicon
    Behrox, Sep 13th, 2011 @ 9:46am

    Spamhaus Sucks

    The spamhaus is the lamest thing on the web they give almost no customer service for starters and then when your have a dynamic ip like mine they don't even remove it if u give a request so personally i will love it if spamhaus is sued and banned permanently.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  •  
    identicon
    david brett, Oct 5th, 2011 @ 2:03pm

    stop spamhaus in the uk please contact me

    Hello i currently have a UK police action to stop spamhaus in the uk please assist me as i have lost a legitmate business clients by having my isp shut me off becuase spamhaus pressured them I need people to come forward and then we can get action taken by the police not some silly civil court think about and reply to me asap brett.david@ymail.com

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  •  
    identicon
    Kim Nicolaou, Nov 21st, 2011 @ 12:24am

    Accused Wrongly of Spamming

    Unfair e-world or i-world we live in. No justice when someone has this much power! Who gives it to them? They are not a court of law. How can someone link this on my link site '' Security Alert: This Link May Not Be Safe
    Facebook has teamed up with SURBL to help protect you online. The link you are trying to visit has been identified as potentially unsafe by our trusted partner. Visit the Facebook Security Page to learn more about staying safe on the Internet.

    SURBL: This website was classified as abusive
    This warning is provided in collaboration with SURBL. Learn more''

    And get away with it?
    This accusation has lost the ''respect'' I have with my friends & fellow musicians. There must be something we can do!
    This means the net is completely 'out of control'. God help us.
    Are there any lawyers who can take up such cases?
    Kim Nicolaou kimisabi@gmail.com

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]


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