New York Wants To Destroy Free Speech Online To Cover Up For Their Own Failings Regarding The Buffalo Shooting
from the elect-better-people dept
Back in May, it seemed fairly obvious how all of this was going to go down. Following on the horrific mass murder carried out at a supermarket in Buffalo, we saw NY’s top politicians all agree that the real blame… should fall on the internet and Section 230. It had quickly become clear that NY’s own government officials had screwed up royally multiple times in the leadup to the massacre. The suspect had made previous threats, which law enforcement mostly brushed off. And then, most egregiously, the 911 dispatcher who answered the call about the shooting, hung up on the caller. And we won’t even get into a variety of other societal failings that resulted in all of this. No, the powers that be have decided to pin all the blame on the internet and Section 230.
To push this narrative, and to avoid taking any responsibility themselves, NY’s governor Kathy Hochul had NY Attorney General Letitia James kick off a highly questionable “investigation” into how much blame they could pin on social media. The results of that “investigation” are now in, and would you believe it? AG James is pretty sure that social media and Section 230 are to blame for the shooting! Considering the entire point of this silly exercise was to deflect blame and put it towards everyone’s favorite target, it’s little surprise that this is what the investigation concluded.
Hochul and James are taking victory laps over this. Here’s Hochul:
“For too long, hate and division have been spreading rampant on online platforms — and as we saw in my hometown of Buffalo, the consequences are devastating,” Governor Hochul said. “In the wake of the horrific white supremacist shooting this year, I issued a referral asking the Office of the Attorney General to study the role online platforms played in this massacre. This report offers a chilling account of factors that contributed to this incident and, importantly, a road map toward greater accountability.”
Hochul is not concerned about the failings of law enforcement officials, nor the failings of mental health efforts. Nor the failings of efforts to keep unwell people from accessing weapons for mass murder. Nope. It’s the internet that’s to blame.
James goes even further in her statement, flat out blaming freedom of speech for mass murder.
“The tragic shooting in Buffalo exposed the real dangers of unmoderated online platforms that have become breeding grounds for white supremacy,” said Attorney General James.
The full 49 page report is full of hyperbole and insisting that the use of forums by people doing bad things is somehow proof that the forums themselves caused the people to be bad. The report puts tremendous weight on the claims of the shooter himself, an obviously troubled individual, who insists that he was “radicalized” online. The report’s authors simply assume that this is accurate, and that it wasn’t just the shooter trying to push off the responsibilities for his own actions.
Incredibly, the report has an entire section that highlights how residents of Buffalo feel that social media should be held responsible. But, that belief that social media is to blame is… mostly driven by misleading information provided by the very same people creating this report in order to offload their own blame. Like, sure, if you keep telling people that social media is to blame, don’t be surprised when they parrot back your talking points. But that doesn’t mean those are meaningful or accurate.
There are many other oddities in the report. The shooter apparently set up a Discord server, with himself as the only member, where he wrote out a sort of “diary” of his plans and thinking. The report seems to blame Discord for this, even though this is no different than opening a local notepad and keeping notes there, or writing them down by hand on a literal notepad. I mean, what is this nonsense:
By restricting access to the Discord server only to himself until shortly before the attack, he ensured to near certainty that his ability to write would not be impeded by Discord’s content moderation.
Discord’s content moderation operates dually at the individual user and server level, and generally across the platform. The Buffalo shooter had no incentive to operate any server-level moderation tools to moderate his own writing. But the platform’s scalable moderation tools also did not stop him from continuing to plan his mass violence down to every last detail.
[….]
But without users or moderators apart from the shooter himself to view his writings, there could be no reports to the platform’s Trust and Safety Team. In practice, he mocked the Community Guidelines, writing in January 2022, “Looks like this server may be in violation of some Discord guidelines,” quoting the policy prohibiting the use of the platform for the organization, promotion, or support of violent extremism, and commenting with evident sarcasm, “uh oh.” He continued to write for more than three and a half more months in the Discord server, filling its virtual pages with specific strategies for carrying out his murderous actions.
He used it as a scratchpad. How do you blame Discord for that?!? If he’d done the same thing in a physical notebook, would AG James be blaming Moleskine for selling him a notebook? This just all seems wholly disconnected from reality.
The report also blames YouTube, because the shooter watched a video on how to comply with NY gun laws. As if that can lead to blame?
One of the videos actually demonstrates the use of an attachment to convert a rifle to use only a fixed magazine in order to comply with New York and other states’ assault weapons bans. The presenter just happens to mention that the product box itself notes that the device can be removed with a drill.
The more you read in the report, the more it becomes obvious just how flimsy James’/Hochul’s argument is that social media is to blame. Here’s the report admitting that he didn’t do anything obviously bad on Reddit:
Like the available Discord comments, the content of most of these Reddit posts is largely exchanging information about the pros and cons of certain brands and types of body armor and ammunition. They generally lack context from which it could have been apparent to a reader that the writer was planning a murderous rampage. One comment, posted about a year ago, is chilling in retrospect; he asks with respect to dark-colored tactical gear, “in low light situations such as before dusk after dawn and at nighttime it would provide good camouflage, also maybe it would be also good for blending in in a city?” It is difficult to say, however, that this comment should have been flagged at the time it was made
The report also notes how all these social media sites sprung into action after the shooting — something helped along because of Section 230, and acts as if this is a reason to reform 230. Indeed, while the report complains that they were still able to find a few images and video clips from the attack, the numbers were tiny and clearly suggest that barely any slipped through. But, this report — again prepared by a NY state gov’t which had law enforcement check on the shooter and do nothing about it — suggests that not being perfect in their moderation is a cause for alarm:
For the period May 20, 2022 to June 20, 2022, OAG investigators searched a number of mainstream social networks and related sites for the manifesto and video of the shooting. Despite the efforts these platforms made at moderating this content, we repeatedly found copies of the video and manifesto, and links to both, on some of the platforms even weeks after the shooting. The OAG’s findings most likely represent a mere fraction of the graphic content actually posted, or attempted to be posted, to these platforms. For example, during the course of nine weeks immediately following the attacks, Meta automatically detected and removed approximately 1 million pieces of content related to the Buffalo shooting across its Facebook and Instagram platforms. Similarly, Twitter took action on approximately 5,500 Tweets in the two weeks following the attacks that included still images or videos of the Buffalo shooting, links to still images and videos, or the shooter’s manifesto. Of those, Twitter took action on more than 4,600 Tweets within the first 48 hours of the attack
When we found graphic content as part of these efforts, we reported it through user reporting tools as a violation of the platform’s policy. Among large, mainstream platforms, we found the most content containing video of the shooting, or links to video of the shooting, on Reddit (17 instances), followed by Instagram (7 instances) and Twitter (2 instances) during our review period. We also found links to the manifesto on Reddit (19 instances), the video sharing site Rumble (14 instances), Facebook (5 instances), YouTube (3 instances), TikTok (1 instance), and Twitter (1 instance). Response time varied from a maximum of eight days for Reddit to take down violative content to a minimum of one day for Facebook and YouTube to do so.
We did not find any of this content on the other popular online platforms we examined for such content, which included Pinterest, Quora, Twitch, Discord, Snapchat, and Telegram, during our review period. That is not to say, however, that it does not exist on those platforms.
In other words, sites like Twitter and Facebook took down thousands to millions of people reposting this content and single digit reposts may have slipped through the content moderation systems… and NY’s top politicians think this is a cause for concern?
I mean, honestly, it is difficult to read this report and think that social media is a problem. What the report actually shows is that social media was, at best, tangential to all of this, and when the shooter and his supporters tried to share and repost content associated with the attack, the sites were pretty good (if not absolutely perfect) about getting most of it off the platform. So it’s absolutely bizarre to read all of that and then jump to the “recommendations” section, where they act as if the report showed that social media is the main cause of the shooting, and just isn’t taking responsibility.
It’s almost as if the “recommendations” section was written prior to the actual investigation.
The report summary from Hochul leaves out how flimsy the actual report is, and insists it proves four things the report absolutely does not prove:
- Fringe platforms fuel radicalization: this is entirely based on the claims of the shooter himself, who has every reason to blame others for his action. The report provides no other support for this.
- Livestreaming has become a tool for mass shooters: again, the “evidence” here is that this guy did it… and so did the Christchurch shooter in 2019. Of course (tragically, and unfortunately) there have been a bunch of mass shootings between now and then, and the vast, vast majority of them do not involve livestreaming. To argue that there’s any evidence that livestreaming is somehow connected to mass shootings is beyond flimsy.
- Mainstream platforms moderation policies are inconsistent and opaque. Again, the actual report suggests otherwise. It shows (as we highlighted above) that the mainstream platforms are pretty aggressive in taking down content associated with a mass shooting, and relatively quick at doing so.
- Online platforms lack accountability. What does accountability even mean here? This prong is used to attack Section 230, ignoring that it’s Section 230 that enabled these companies to build up tools and processes in their trust & safety departments to react to tragedies like this one.
The actual recommendations bounce back and forth between “obviously unconstitutional restrictions on speech” and “confused and nonsensical” (some are both). Let’s go through each of them:
- Create Liability for the Creation and Distribution of Videos of Homicides: This is almost certainly problematic under the 1st Amendment. You may recall that law enforcement types have been calling for this sort of thing for ages, going back over a decade. Hell, we have a story from 2008 with NY officials calling for this very same thing. It’s all nonsense. Videos of homicides are… actual evidence. Criminalizing the creation and distribution of evidence of a crime seems like a weird thing for law enforcement to be advocating for. It’s almost as if they don’t want to take responsibility. Relatedly, this would also criminalize taking videos of police shooting people. Which, you know, probably is not such a good idea.
- Add Restrictions to Livestreaming: I remind you that the report mentions exactly two cases of livestreamed mass murders: this one in Buffalo and the one in 2019 in Christchurch, New Zealand. That is not exactly proof that livestreaming is deeply connected with mass murder. The suggestion is completely infeasible, demanding “tape delays” on livestreaming, so that… it is no longer livestreaming. They also demand ways to “identify first-person violence before it can be widely disseminated.” And I’d like a pony too.
- Reform Section 230: Again, the actual report shows how the various platforms did a ton to get rid of content glorifying the shooter. Yes, a few tiny things slipped through… just as the shooter slipped through New York police review when he was previously reported for threatening violence. But, Hochul and James are sure that 230 is a problem. They demand that “an online platform has the initial burden of establishing that its policies and practices were reasonably designed.” This is effectively a repeal of 230 (as I’ll explain below).
- Increase Transparency and Strengthen Moderation: As we’ve discussed at length, many of these transparency mandates are actually censorship demands in disguise. Also, reforming Section 230 as they want would not strengthen moderation, it would weaken it by making it that much more difficult to actually adapt to bad actors on the site. The same is likely true of most transparency mandates, which make it more difficult to adapt to changing threats, because the transparency requirements slow everyone down.
I want to call out, again, why the “reasonably designed” bit of the “reform 230” issue is so problematic. Again, this requires people to actually understand how Section 230 works. Section 230’s main benefit is the procedural benefit of getting frivolous, vexatious cases tossed out early. If you condition 230 protections on proving “reasonableness,” you literally take away the entire benefit of 230. Because, now, every time there’s a lawsuit, you first have to go through the expensive, and time consuming process of proving your policies are reasonable. And, thus, you lose all of the procedural benefits of 230 and are left fighting nuisance lawsuits constantly. The idea makes no sense at all.
Worse, it again greatly limits the ability of sites to adapt and improve their moderation efforts, because now every single change that they make needs to go through a careful legal review before it will get approved, and then every single change will open them up to a new legal challenge that these new policies are somehow “unreasonable.” The entire “reasonableness” scheme incentivizes companies to not fix moderation and to not adapt and strengthen moderation, because any change to your policies creates the risk of liability, and the need to fight long and expensive lawsuits.
So, to sum all this up: we have real evidence that NY state failed in major ways with regards to the Buffalo shooter. Instead of owning that, NY leadership decided to blame social media, initiating this “investigation.” The actual details of the investigation show that social media had very, very little to do with this shooting at all, and where it was used, it was used in very limited ways. It also shows that social media sites were actually extremely fast and on the ball in removing content regarding the shooting, while a very, very, very tiny bit of content may have slipped through the filtering process, it was hugely successful.
And yet… the report still blames social media, insists a bunch of false things are true, and then makes a bunch of questionable (unconstitutional) recommendations, along with recommendations to effectively take away all of Section 230’s benefits… which would actually make it that much more difficult for websites to respond to future events and future malicious actors.
It’s all garbage. But, of course, it’s just politicians grandstanding and deflecting from their own failings. Social media and Section 230 are a convenient scapegoat, so that’s what we get.
Filed Under: 1st amendment, blame, buffalo, content moderation, kathy hochul, letitia james, livestreaming, mass murder, new york, section 230
Companies: discord, reddit, twitch, youtube
Comments on “New York Wants To Destroy Free Speech Online To Cover Up For Their Own Failings Regarding The Buffalo Shooting”
Deep as a puddle
The section 230 dilemma between Democrats and Republicans tries to present itself like this moral quandary, when it really isn’t. Both of their arguments are extremely surface level. It’s not a complex debate. It’s just two kids arguing over a stuffed toy. The harder they pull in opposite directions, the greater the tear. And in the end, you don’t end up with a piece of a toy, you just get a toy in tatters.
Re:
It’s also a reminder, as another commenter here likes to point out, that no one can present a decent argument for dismantling Section 230 without lying about or misrepresenting Section 230 in some way.
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Re: Re: Reproductive Decency Act.
In the wake of Dobbs. I doubt that the SCOTUS is going to allow a national ban on abortion. They said they are returning it to the states and thats the way its going to stay. However, in the wake of protesters being targeted by the FBI how about this.
Lets pass the “Reproductive Decency Act.” Within that act we will have a section 230. Section 230 of the Reproductive Decency Act will have a good Sumerian clause that grants immunity both civil and criminal to anyone who impedes access to an abortion clinic.
I’m sure you would have no problem with that little work around would you Stephen?
Re: Re: Re:
lmao what
Re: Re: Re:2
It’s Chozen. Go figure.
Re: Re: Re:2
IKR, what if one isn’t Sumerian, but Akkadian or Elamite? And none of those peoples even exist anymore, so yeah, maybe go for a clause that has no possible effect.
Re: Re: Re:3
Um, what does that have to do with anything?
Re: Re: Re:
Are your inner thoughts as incoherent as your outer thoughts?
Re: Re: Re:
No one:
Absolutely no one:
Not a single soul in Techdirt:
Chozen, on six lines of cocaine:
En ae snkebo auf djoobbos. Ahd djooubt yeat ae skotuos djuu’haest hon’lin tut jenrouues u vationik baosn pnex pnaborumnat. Shaeh sjahakas shayr ashtisturn’lin tehh tut ae haeatyos ah e yeatos ae sneh ehtos hon’lin tut haeaeh. Deghoewever, en ae snkebo auf gioditesteros jhera’lin sthaarget’hast skre ae fbh ghoew pnabutot yeios.
bhytos rhausz ae “reproductivyuk kantcenceh aht. ” nhothek yeat aht nheboret ehnheveb u liehcumnat 230. Liehcumnat 230 auf ae ashtisproductivyuk kantcenceh aht nholl ehnheveb u honoth leumerete koauhob yeat aubantos phaatmunolykhyt nyehgssyn arvil ah e kheiminik tut ahrngyndyr nhueut phaatpedyos ahcewudz tut ab pnaborumnat koilaius.
i’m leuuioes yakho nherebo ehnheveb nut giodiblem nhossyn yeat lyetettehnd whenk dhunoun’had nherebo yakho haeephen?
Re: Re: Re:2
I have no clue what happened here or what language this is, if any. But I spit my coffee reading this. Specially the “on six lines of cocaine” part.
Re: Re: Re:2
That’s a conservative estimate, methinks.
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Re: Re: Re:3 Why So Complicated?
Why so confusing? Mike’s Misfits having a hard time grasping what section 230 is?
Section 230 is the government granting immunity to private actors to incentivize them to do what the government cant do.
My section 230 is no different. I’ll grant immunity to anyone who does what I want them to do but cannot legally do myself.
Are you saying the government doesn’t have the power to grant immunity to anyone who impedes access to an abortion clinic?
Re: Re: Re:4
… that being to exercise their Constitutional rights.
Re: Re: Re:5
Funny how that part always gets left out when people are arguing against 230.
Re: Re: Re:6
Well, that and property rights. The 1A arguments are fun, but the real entertainment is self-proclaimed libertarians and free speech activists immediately demanding communist seizure of private property the moment someone tried exercising their free association and property rights.
Re: Re: Re:2
Tridhcid nioJ.
Re: Re: Re:2
Tridhcet nioJ.
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Re: Re: Re: Why So Complicated?
Why so confusing? Mike’s Misfits having a hard time grasping what section 230 is?
Section 230 is the government granting immunity to private actors to incentivize them to do what the government cant do.
My section 230 is no different. I’ll grant immunity to anyone who does what I want them to do but cannot legally do myself.
Re: Re: Re:2
Hey Chozen when people in many places online do not want to associate with you, you are the problem.
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Re: Re: Re:3
lol You are like 5 people. I might not have been here but its easy to research the demise of this blog. Everyone disassociated from Mike’s Misfits when Mike sold out.
Re: Re: Re:4 Is public humiliation your fetish clamchowda?
And yet here you are, losing to people you hate, over, and over, and over again.
Re: Re: Re:5
Chozen claims 5 people debunk him only because that’s as high as he can count.
Re: Re: Re:6
The irony is that those 5 people just so happen to know their shit better than the Neonazi supporters and their support crew will ever be.
Re: Re: Re:7
That’s not a high bar, though.
Re: Re: Re:8
Yes.
But I was also referring to the usual suspects, aka the usual Techdirt crew.
Re: Re: Re:4
So, why are you here? The only thing more pathetic than someone claiming that everyone else is being a big old meany to them is surely the person who claims that they’re spending their free time on a site that almost nobody else uses in order to claim it?
I mean, if humiliation is your fetish then all power to you, but it’s weird that this is the avenue you choose for it when there’s other more specialist sites out there for you.
Re: Re: Re:2
Once again, Chozen proves that no one can present a cogent argument against Section 230 without lying about Section 230.
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Re: Re: Re:3
I didn’t lie at all. Cox said that section 230 was intended to incentive censorship. Cox gave tech platforms immunity to incentive them to censor content.
If you agree with section 230 you must also agree that it fully within the coming republican majority’s power to grant immunity to anyone who impedes access to an abortion clinic.
Re: Re: Re:4
No, he didn’t. I have a copypasta that proves you’re a liar.
If you can’t present an argument against 230 without lying about 230, say so and be done with it.
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Re: Re: Re:5
lol
Mike 2 years ago described section 230 as
“How to incentivize the most good stuff and the least bad stuff:”
No backsies!
Re: Re: Re:6
So what? “Good stuff” and “bad stuff” are subjective. 230 doesn’t make such distinctions—and it doesn’t place content into one of those two categories.
Keep lying about 230 and you’ll find that your lies have been debunked over and over again.
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Re: Re: Re:7 Good Smartian
lol
The part of subsection of 230 in question is officially called “(c)Protection for “Good Samaritan” blocking and screening of offensive material”
STFU
Re: Re: Re:8
So what? The law doesn’t (and can’t) define what counts as “offensive material”. Twitter and Facebook and 4chan all have different ideas on what counts as “offensive material”—and none of those services, nor the law itself, has any say over whether their ideas are the “correct” ones.
If Twitter thinks anti-Semitic speech is “offensive material”, it has the right to say “you can’t post that here” and boot anyone who does. If 4chan thinks that same speech is not “offensive”, it has the right to allow that speech. 230 protects both services from any kind of liability for that speech so long as it comes entirely from third parties.
The First Amendment gives those services the right to make those decisions. 230 protects those services from legal liability for making those decisions. If you have a problem with 230, you also have a problem with the First Amendment.
Do you have any more lies about Section 230 that I can debunk?
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Re: Re: Re:9
“If you have a problem with 230, you also have a problem with the First Amendment.”
If you have a problem with 230 of the reproductive decency act you also have a problem with the first Amendment because I’m only protecting people’s right to assembly 😉
Re: Re: Re:10
lmao did you snort seven lines of cocaine this morning so you can say you didn’t do six
Re: Re: Re:10
And that right includes the right to exclude some people from the assembly. There are other place on the Internet where you can assemble with similarly minded people, which exclude people that you dislike, so go and find a community whose conversation and ideas you find agreeable.
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Re: Re: Re:11
Think you missed the analogy.
Re: Re: Re:12
Think you missed the memo, nobody but gender-insecure boys dressing up as e-girls want to associate with you.
Re: Re: Re:10 "I've never been proven wrong here!"
Hey Coinpurse, I don’t think we are going to take reproductive advise from someone who doesn’t know the difference between state housing and a pub.
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Re: Re: Re:11
But you take tech advice from somebody who thinks a spectrum lease means you own the spectrum. Interesting.
Re: Re: Re:12
Not as interesting as your admission of thinking rape is funny.
Re: Re: Re:13
Speaking of people who think rape is funny: You seem right in line with Donald Trump and his supporters.
Re: Re: Re:12 No interesting so much as delusional
Sorry I couldn’t hear you over the crowd at the public house(ing project) chanting “I’ve never been proven wrong here!”
Re: Re: Re:10
I have to ask – is this particular line of fantasy something you cooked up for yourself, or is it being fed to you by one of the moron-friendly outlets warming up for election stupidity?
I only ask, because I need to work out whether responding with asking if you people think that bodily autonomy should be a fundamental right as per your analogy, or whether you’ve just got the ideas mixed up in your head and think that you’re scoring point against strawmen. I do tend to find that certain types get confused when they have to debate against what a “liberal” actually thinks rather than what he’s been told to expect.
Re: Re: Re:4
…said nobody not trying to prove they are hallucinating off of 6 lines of cocaine, ever
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Re: Re: Re:5 Mike Jun 25th 2020 01:39pm
“…said nobody not trying to prove they are hallucinating off of 6 lines of cocaine, ever”
“He describes the whole process by which he and Wyden came up with the plan for Section 230. It was designed to be a balance itself. How to incentivize the most good stuff and the least bad stuff::” ~ Mike Thu, Jun 25th 2020 01:39pm
This is so easy.
Re: Re: Re:6
That’s not exactly a denial of your cocaine habits.
Re: Re: Re:7
It’s rather a clear admission he’s hallucinating
Re: Re: Re:2
Re: Re: Re:
I doubt that the SCOTUS is going to allow a national ban on abortion.
Ha! Allow it?
Shit, you short-sighted pro-life morons are making women that are ALREADY FUCKING ALIVE get to the point where they have to have LIFE-THREATENING sepsis in order to abort a non-viable fetus. Nothing like pushing someone to death to show how much you respect life!
But you keep going, dipshit! You’re literally flirting with death and are too fucking dense to see it.
And once the first woman gives birth to their rapist’s child, I can’t wait for all of your brilliant fucking plans as to how child support and visitation (lol) are supposed to work.
Ditto for incest, although at least logistically it’s simpler. I’m sure you with all your empathy has already factored that in.
But keep going! You better hope that fucking piece of shit god you all say is so good has something pretty goddamn neat up his sleeve, because the folks affected by these shitty scenarios aren’t going to settle for it just being ‘god’s will.’
They’re going to blame you. And your asshole god.
I hope this abortion hill was worth dying on. Because I finally see the end of this god bullshit with this unprecedented level of cruelty.
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Re: Re: Re:2
Oh so shoe on the other foot pisses you off. Simply propose to to do with abortion what Cox and Wyden did with free speech on tech platforms and you lose your shit.
lol
You prove my point and you are too stupid to get it.
Maybe you should ask yourself why using the governments power to give immunity to incentivize private action that the government itself cannot take pisses you off so much in the context of abortion.
Re: Re: Re:3
Except that’s not what they did at all.
You know this.
You don’t care that you know this.
Go be a disruptive little shit elsewhere, man. The only thing you do on this site is start shit just for the sake of attention, and you’re lucky I’m fucked in the head enough to give it to you. In any other situation, you’d probably be banned from the site or ignored completely.
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Re: Re: Re:4
“Except that’s not what they did at all.”
That’s exactly what they did. They used their power to grant immunity to encourage private action that constitutionally they couldn’t take directly.
Now I know you think it was virtuous but that doesn’t make it any less unconstitutional.
Re: Re: Re:5
Yeah, but no, they didn’t. If you can’t post anti-Semitic remarks on Twitter, you can go to any other site that will allow them and post them there. The government can’t stop you from doing that—and neither can Twitter, for that matter.
All Section 230 does is shortcut lawsuits meant to place liability for speech onto the tool instead of its user. Keep lying about 230; I’ll be glad to debunk all your lies in this single thread right here, right now.
I can do this all day. Can you?
Re: Re: Re:6
It takes quite the deranged and/or dishonest mind to claim that protecting a right people already have so they won’t hopefully won’t be driven into bankruptcy for exercising it is somehow encouraging ‘censorship’. At that point you might as well argue that trespassing laws encourage ‘censorship’ since they likewise allow you to remove someone from your property.
Re: Re: Re:7
Well, these people hate private property laws after all…
And we all know the NeoNazi crew are all dishonest AND hypocritical.
Re: Re: Re:8
They’re adolescents – they hate other people having stuff, but they want to keep everything they have. They think that their own actions having consequences is persecution, not something they did to themselves.
I welcome the day they grow up, but until then…
Re: Re: Re:5
Now if only you could find proof for your sad impotent little delusion coinbase.
Re: Re: Re:5
You only imagine the two are equivalent because you keep proving you understand absolutely nothing about either one.
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Re: Re: Re:6
“You only imagine the two are equivalent because you keep proving you understand absolutely nothing about either one.”
The two are exactly equiliviant. Justice is blind. You are not making a legal or Constitutional argument you are making a value argument. Not one of you morons have said how using immunity power to incentives a private party to take an action the government wants done but itself cannot itself perform is Constitutional.
Abortion is the perfect example because its your sacred cow. When the shoe is on the other foot you lose your god damn minds.
Re: Re: Re:7
That’s because 230 doesn’t incentivize anyone to censor content on behalf of the government. 230 doesn’t even give anyone the ability to do that—because 230 isn’t about censorship, it’s about moderation.
Moderation is a platform/service owner or operator saying “we don’t do that here”. Personal discretion is an individual telling themselves “I won’t do that here”. Editorial discretion is an editor saying “we won’t print that here”, either to themselves or to a writer. Censorship is someone saying “you won’t do that anywhere” alongside threats or actions meant to suppress speech. Now tell me which one happens if Twitter boots someone for posting racial slurs, anti-queer speech, or any other speech that violates Twitter’s TOS—and the person who gets booted repeats that exact same speech on any other platform that will have them.
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Re: Re: Re:8
“That’s because 230 doesn’t incentivize anyone to censor content on behalf of the government. 230 doesn’t even give anyone the ability to do that—because 230 isn’t about censorship, it’s about moderation.”
Moderation literally means to bring to the middle. In order to moderate you have to censor.
Re: Re: Re:9
Some sites moderate in a way that, on those sites only, prevents people from posting speech that a great many people would find offensive.
Some sites moderate in a way that, on those sites only, prevents people from posting illegal content but lets all other legal content stand.
Some sites moderate in a way that, on those sites only, prevents people from posting anything that wouldn’t be considered “family-friendly”—even if that speech isn’t necessarily offensive to a large swath of the populace.
230 protects each of those methods of moderation. None of those methods—or Section 230—prevents anyone from leaving a site with one style of moderation, going to a site with a different style, and posting content that would be banned on the first site but allowed on the second.
Do you have any more lies about Section 230 that I can debunk?
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Re: Re: Re:10
“230 protects each of those methods of moderation. None of those methods—or Section 230—prevents anyone from leaving a site with one style of moderation, going to a site with a different style, and posting content that would be banned on the first site but allowed on the second.
Do you have any more lies about Section 230 that I can debunk?”
You didn’t debunk anything you said its moderation not censorship. You then went on the above rant proving that its not moderation.
Moderation is just a double speak because no one wanted to be the forum censor.
Section 230 incentivizes censorship.
Re: Re: Re:11
Moderation of a single platform doesn’t stop anyone from speaking on any other platform. A dipshit who gets banned from Twitter still has plenty of other places to post the speech what got them banned from Twitter.
One would only equate moderation with censorship if they believe they have a right—moral or legal—to use someone else’s private property as a platform and/or make other people listen to them. I can assure you that neither you, I, or anyone else has such a right. Neither 230 nor the First Amendment takes that right away because that right doesn’t exist.
What else you got, you lying sack of protoplasm?
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Re: Re: Re:12
“Moderation of a single platform doesn’t stop anyone from speaking on any other platform.”
Again for the 1000th time. Your personal definition of censorship is not the real definition of censorship.
Re: Re: Re:13
Devin Nunes suing cows is censorship, what social media does is moderation, spot the difference between the two.
Re: Re: Re:13
That’s nice. But how does that assertion disprove the sentence you quoted?
Re: Re: Re:13
Your personal definition of censorship is not the real definition of censorship.
That you can write this while using your own personal definition of moderation has been of particular amusement to me in this thread.
The entitlement that you seem to think you have is indicative of what I used to call a ‘spoiled fucking brat,’ of which the solution would be a firm smack in the backside to shut said brat up and send him/her humbly crying back to its ineffective parent.
With the Internet being what it is, I find it difficult to believe that there is no place else where your blathering wouldn’t be welcomed – so what is gained by incessantly demanding involvement in conversations you’re not welcome in?
Perhaps you’re not considering that continuously irritating people will have consequences. The simplest of which will be continuous relegation to places that are out of public view, and thus out of public conversation. That’s what’s already happened vis-a-vis the mass expulsion to Parler, Gettr, Gab, Truth Social, et al. Based on the fact that the issue still isn’t resolved for you (i.e. you’re still complaining on this and other threads), it suggests that this wasn’t a satisfactory solution.
Why wasn’t it satisfsactory?
Isn’t your speech up prominently on one or more of those social networks, for all of you like minded individuals to consume, digest, and then do whatever quasi-comical stuff you do, without interference from the rest of us irritating, uneducated morons, who don’t seem to understand anything you say despite you continuously repeating it?
If we don’t understand something, such that repeating it 1000 times has been ineffective, that suggests one of two causes.
We are incapable of understanding the message.
We are unwilling to understand the message.
It’s reasonable to assume that we’re certainly capable, which points to a matter of willingness. If we’re unwilling, what makes you feel entitled to persist?
Re: Re: Re:14
Some of the resident trolls have inadvertently admitted that TD is one of the very few places where they aren’t banned which points to them being so toxic that even sites where assholes congregate think they are too odious.
As the saying goes, if everyone around you is an asshole then you’re the asshole.
Re: Re: Re:15
Their sob stories could have fooled me.
Most of their shrieking, murderous kin are still polluting the internet space with their NeoNazi talk, and is the modus operandi of A LOT of anti-American online trolls.
ie, to sow fear, uncertainty and doubt by spreading disinformation, polluting threads with garbage like this and to generally drive away users so that their ilk can move in.
Re: Re: Re:13
Chozen, for the sake of brevity, go argue at an empty room. I’m sure that’s the only audience that’ll listen to you. I would say go argue with a goldfish, but even a goldfish would rather die hearing what you say.
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Re: Re: Re:14
lol
This entire blog is your morons replying to hidden posts.
Re: Re: Re:15
If you didn’t act like a disruptive little shit and tried to engage with discussions in good faith, your comments wouldn’t get flagged on sight.
But you have to be the troll, the contrarian, the “look at me I’m a little shithead and the mods aren’t doing anything about me” asshole, don’tcha? I mean, given how utterly wrong you are about everything, you have to be doing it on purpose to get attention from someone. And since I’m the only one fucked in the head enough to keep giving you that attention, that you’re seeking it from me—of all people!—says far more about you than it does about me.
Seriously, man, rëexamine your life if you’re trying to get my attention. Trust me on this: I’m not worth it.
Re: Re: Re:15
So, nobody’s being censored?
Re: Re: Re:13
“Again for the 1000th time. Your personal definition of censorship is not the real definition of censorship.”
Chocodile, queen of projection.
Re: Re: Re:7
Not one of you morons have said how using immunity power to incentives a private party to take an action the government wants done but itself cannot itself perform is Constitutional.
Haven’t you people already said it in Texas, moron?
Re: Re: Re:7
Abortion is the perfect example because its your sacred cow. When the shoe is on the other foot you lose your god damn minds.
Yeah, keep telling yourself that, you disingenous little twat. You’re so busy competing for biggest douche, pushing your useless god shit, or fellating your fucking guns that you’re happy to see half the population lose their bodily autonomy.
The reason you’re STILL bitching about 230 is because EVERYONE STILL THINKS YOU’RE ASSHOLES!
It’s YOU that’s the problem.
You = Asshole
Fix the asshole thing, and you’ll get closer to fixing the problem.
Asshole.
Re: Re: Re:8
See, therein lies the issue. Asking Chozen to fix the “being an asshole” thing is not on the table for him. His entire shtick is to be an asshole because he works under the assumption that assholes are always honest and if something an asshole says or does makes you feel uncomfortable, it’s your fault or responsibility, not the asshole’s.
Which is why pointing out how much of a bottom bitch he is for Trump is satisfying, because he doesn’t like being on the receiving end of vague rape threats. The problem is, unlike the “Texas-sized dick” he insists Masnick is going to get, the track record Trump has for standing up for the rights of Latinx queers like him is even less than stellar. Chozen’s the equivalent of a violently battered, harassed spouse who won’t divorce the abuser of a husband because he’s that cowed into believing that next time will be better.
Re: Re: Re:9
I am highly doubtful that Chozen is who they claim to be, either.
They do not seem to understand a lot of things, nor do they actually care to understand the plight of the Latin Americans and their own ethnicity.
They don’t care to understand why they gotta follow all those crazy rules and regs their job faces, either.
Re: Re: Re:10
The one thing Chozen has going for him is a consistent claim that accurate spelling corresponds with low intelligence. Just in case it meant something. He’ll use it to wave his self-professed giant e-peen around as proof of why he’s somehow entitled to get fucked over by his phone’s AutoCorrect.
Of course, you only have to see how many times he’s made spelling errors as a percentage of how much he’s actually typed out. It’s not in any significant proportion to call him a genius by his own definitions. Chozen is little more than a bully, the stereotypical porn asshole who insists that straight people will only be able to “knock it until they try it”, which is to say he’ll only accept their terms once they let him fuck them up the ass.
Re: Re: Re:3
Oh so shoe on the other foot pisses you off.
No. Delusional mental defectives making health choices they have no business making pisses me off. But you already know that. I’m having a hard time giving a fucking shit about your perception of lost speech while you’re busy advocating for women having to endure sepsis just to give birth to a non-viable fetus because some voice in your empty head is telling you to.
Maybe instead of worrying about your freeze peach, why don’t you take some fucking medication to get the voices that are telling you that’s a good idea under control, you useless piece of garbage?
Maybe you should ask yourself why using the governments power to give immunity to incentivize private action that the government itself cannot take pisses you off so much in the context of abortion.
Ask YOURSELF the question you disingenuous piece of shit. If you think control over women’s bodies is somehow comparable to you not being able to blabber your bullshit on Facebook, that itself is the problem – you’re a fucking idiot with no sense of perspective.
Why don’t you people go back to /pol where you can be the best trailer trash you can be?
Re: Re: Re:4
eVEN 4chan does not even want the Stormfront fucks that moved in.
Please, white supremacists, go back to the darknet and under the eye of the CIA.
Re: Re: Re:5
8chan/8kun exists because 4channers though that they censored too much. There’s other offshoots. Nothing short of total anarchy will be enough for them, and all but the most depraved don’t want to be associated with that.
There’s no easy answer to balance here, especially at the scale that is required on sites that service literal billions, but what can be said is that the answer is not to allow the types of people who got kicked off Twitter to rule it. The road leads to ruin, and unfortunately over the bodies of the people who get abused along the way.
Re: Re: Re:6
Yeah, when moot finally put his damn foot down and said “NO FUCKING GAMERGATE BULLSHIT ON MY 4CHAN”.
The damn Stormfront and white supremacists, though, were from before that, I think. There’s still a sizeable population of those jerks on /pol/.
Re: Re: Re:2 'Life is sacred... until it's born and might cost ME money to support.'
And once the first woman gives birth to their rapist’s child, I can’t wait for all of your brilliant fucking plans as to how child support and visitation (lol) are supposed to work.
I suspect I can safely sum up what the pro-birther response to ‘okay, the rapist’s child is born, now how important is it’s life to you?’ in a single word: Silence.
Re: Re: Re:3
Creatures that have no control over their reproduction are called livestock.
Re: Re:
“Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that’s even remotely true.” – Simpson, Homer.
“The tragic shooting in Buffalo exposed the real dangers of unmoderated online platforms that have become breeding grounds for white supremacy,”
Remind me again, when was the K.K.K. formed?
And each kid will be thinking, “Well, yes, the toy is broken, bit the IMPORTANT thing is that the other kid doesn’t have it.”
Re:
Sorry, this was supposed to be a reply to Cat_Daddy.
The sad fact is…
As shamefully as Governor Kathy Hochul and Attorney General Letitia James acted here, both of their GOP opponents are MAGATs (In fact, Lee Zeldin, who is running against Hochul, was endorsed by Trumpy).
It’s a sad feature of democracy that the only thing making bad politicians look any good is their opponents.
Putting aside the whole Twitch LOL thing…
Twitch already has an adjustable up to 30-second delay because people are shitty and want to stream snipe streamers playing online games.
But uh, yeah, how do you vote for better politicians when the job is associated with psychopathic behaviour, sheer corruption and incompetency, and far, far worse?
Re:
Stop voting Republican, for starters.
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Re: Re:
Which doesn’t solve the issue of the Dems being simply just as bad as the White Supremacist Party.
Sure, the Dems have Ron Wyden and Bernie, I’ll at least give you that, but the majority are all rotten corporate-captured clowns.
And then there’s still the 73 million that will back ANY Republican candidate no matter how vile and anti-American they might be.
And hell, I live in Singapore. The only thing I get to choose is WHICH FUCKING COLOR SHIRT THE FUCKING POLITICIANS WEAR INTO PARLIAMENT.
Re: Re: Re:
Have the Democrats spent years questioning the result of a free and fair election, to the point where they’ve chased election workers out of office?
If the answer is “no”: The Democrats are “as bad as” the GOP. They’re awful, but they’re not “we need to ban all abortions in all situations” awful.
That’s nice. It’s also irrelevant to this discussion.
Re: Re: Re:2
I picked the wrong day to stop getting my candy from LAX.
Re: Re: Re:3
I guess that points to the main problem we have.
The lesser of two evils is not an effective long-term strategy. If all our choices are fundamentally unsatisfactory, we’re never actually going to get anywhere we want to go.
Re: Re: Re:4
No shit. But given that the lesser of two evils in this situation isn’t trying to revoke women’s rights, push queer people out of public life, and unmake American democracy by way of casting doubt on/refusing to accept the results of any and every election they don’t win? I’ll vote for that lesser evil every election.
Re: Re: Re:5
I’ll vote for the party that wants to give 4th graders free school lunches.
I will NOT vote for the party that wants to force 4th graders to have their rapist’s baby.
I will vote for the party that wants to protect 4th graders from being slaughtered while at school.
I will NOT vote for that party that wants to give 4th graders DNA kits to make it easier to identify their slaughtered bodies.
Shall I go on?
Where is the evil in the party I’ll vote for?
(OK, i’ll agree that there are plenty of evil people in the D party.)
PS. I will vote for the party that will uphold the 1st amendment and section 230…. oh… wait… what??? FUCK!!!
Re: Re: Re:6
Their back pockets, which is where they keep all their corporate donations.
Re: Re: Re:7
Sounds like reform is needed.
Which, I’d assume comes from voting a certain way, and not from the apathy that allowed SCOTUS to make certain recent decision, including the Citizens United and other decisions that increased corporate influence.
There’s probably no fix in the short term, but from the outside looking in I suspect that allowing Republicans to have real power either by voting for them or not voting for their viable opposition isn’t going to help in the long term.
Here’s hoping that corporations reduce their influence, but whether or not the Democrats (who encompass a huge spectrum of political positions in global terms) are going for it in the near future, it’s pretty much guaranteed that the other guys won’t be interested in a change.
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Re: Re: Re:2
“Have the Democrats spent years questioning the result of a free and fair election”
ROLF 2000, 2004, 2016 the last time the democrats accepted the result of a national election they lost was 1988.
Re: Re: Re:3
But you want to know the biggest most glaring difference that fuckhole like you will never grasp…??
The democrats conceded and are no longer talking about it.
Your orange shit king still thinks he won the election 2 years later… along with a lot of trump suckers just like yourself.
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Re: Re: Re:4
“The democrats conceded and are no longer talking about it.”
lol You still talk about 2000, 2004, 2016 STFU
Re: Re: Re:5 Who brought up what now
“ROLF 2000, 2004, 2016 the last time the democrats accepted the result of a national election they lost was 1988.”
Chimichanga
Re: Re: Re:5
Talk about it, as in bring it up in every campaign event needed to keep someone’s tiny mushroom active while he’s fighting very credible criminal charges? Or talk about it, as in every time someone sucking on said mushroom claims he’s a winner, despite not having won any popular vote, and reminding you of the dirty tricks used in the past for that party to retain power (which, unfortunately, includes a concession from a candidate with actual evidence of voter fraud)?
I see people trying to remind you lot about history, but I don’t think I’ve seen crying about it on a stage where the person talking is meant to be supporting someone else’s candidacy, as has happened with the orange lunatic regarding his 2020 failure.
Re: Re: Re:3
How long did the Democrats spend complaining about the results of those elections, such that they cast doubt not only on the outcome of those elections, but on the actual democratic process itself?
Because the way I remember it, dickhead, the Democrats didn’t spend months to years trying to litigate those elections in courts of both law and public opinion. They sure as hell didn’t encourage, directly or indirectly, an insurrection against the American government. And they sure as fuck didn’t talk about refusing to accept the outcome of any future elections in which they don’t win.
Re: Re: Re:4
“Because the way I remember it, dickhead, the Democrats didn’t spend months to years trying to litigate those elections in courts of both law and public opinion.”
In fact the opposite with 2000. The world would probably have been better off is Gore had fought against some very credible issues, but he decided to concede and put something ahead of his own ego instead. Had Gore acted like Trump, he probably wouldn’t have been laughed out of 60+ courts and be under investigation for his role is a violent insurrection attempt at least.
I wonder sometimes if these people are acting or not. I mean, do they actually think that “Trump lost by 3 million votes but still made it into office” and “Trump lost by 7 million votes” are equivalent elections to complain about? Yet, the latter is the only one regularly mentioned and the only one with ongoing criminal prosecutions associated.
The whining would of course be more understandable if there was evidence. 2000 had “hanging chads” and the brother of the opposing candidate in charge of the state that counted. 2020 has… what? A weirdo pillow salesman who doesn’t understand the linear passage of time?
Re: Re: Re:3
I remember dems being mad about all three of those elections (including 1 lawsuit), but I also remember them conceding all three of those elections and also… not storming the Capitol and violently trying to kill the Vice President, not filing over 5 dozen frivolous lawsuits, and then not making it a central plank of their campaign 2 years later that the election was a hoax and a fraud.
Perhaps you are delusional?
Re: Re: Re:3
I don’t recall any significant complaints about the process for 2004, nor about the process for 2016. The complaint about 2000 was the way that a single state’s ballots were miscounted objectively and that the USSC essentially unilaterally decided the results. This was dropped pretty quickly.
Did Democrats complain about the results? Sure. Did they claim the results were fraudulent? No. Did they engage in riots or insurrection to protest or change the results? No. Did they say that the results should be invalidated by the courts or legislatures? No. Did they accept that the Republican won? Yes.
Basically, you have no idea what you’re talking about.
Re: Re: Re:4
I mean, evebn Hilary didn’t contest the results and actually stopped trying to be President.
Re: Re: Re:2
…I’ll give you that.
I’m just saying there’s very few good Dems left to vote for.
And America does not seem to want to actually fix their white supremacist problem…
Re: Re: Re:3
The alternative is voting Republican, and there is no Republican left who is even remotely moderate. I’ll take a bad Democrat over a “good” Republican every Election Day.
That’s a whole other problem, but given how Democrats are willing to put forth a diverse slate of candidates and Republicans are still largely committed to putting forth straight white Christian cisgender males, I’d say the Dems have the upper hand in that regard.
Re: Re: Re:4
Or bonkers, bigoted Qanon females, like Marjorie Taylor Greene.
Re: Re: Re:4
The alternative, actually, is violent revolution.
And it’s extremely understandable that people don’t want to resort to that, but when you don’t have any options…
It’s one thing to not vote in a member of a treasonous, NeoNazi party. I’ve already conceeded that.
It’s another to realize that after that step, stubbornly sticking to the least worst might not be such a good idea.
Re: Re: Re:5
Again: The alternative to voting for Democrats is voting for Republicans. (And I don’t want to hear any shit about third parties because third parties tend to play spoiler more often than they win elections.)
Look, I get it: Democrats aren’t great. I’ll shit on them all day for generally being a bunch of spineless cowards who suck at political messaging. But they’re not out to destroy American democracy—and until the party that wants to do that stops trying to do that, the only viable candidates to vote for are Democrats.
And violent revolution is not an option in this country, given how well armed the military and many larger police departments are in this day and age. A “war” with the federal government would probably last about as long as it takes for the military to drone strike the leaders of the “revolutionaries”.
The only viable option for protecting American democracy is to vote for Democrats. If you can present a sensible counterargument to my statement, now would be one hell of a time to do it.
Re: Re: Re:6
And that is how a two party system gets locked into place. Votes for third parties as a movement can have sevearl effects, cause:
1) cause the main parties to reconsider their policies and candidates.
2) Increase the number of parties having seats in government, which can moderate the extremes of the main parties.
3) Enable a replacement for one or both main parties to gain votes and replace one or both of them.
Not considering third parties has one effect, both parties get worse and worse at representing the people, as outside of a few swing states, any candidate they put up in a state they hold will be elected.
Re: Re: Re:7
And that would be all well and good if third parties won more elections than they did. But the only way that’s going to happen in the U.S. is if we switch to ranked choice voting. Until that changes (which isn’t going to happen on a national level any time soon), we’re stuck in the two-party system where third parties are more often spoilers for one of the two major parties than they are outright winners.
The only viable and realistic alternative to voting for Republicans in this moment in time is voting for Democrats. I would love for third parties to be viable. But they’re not. Until they are, I’mma vote Democrat no matter what—not because I like the party, but because the party isn’t dedicated to overthrowing American democracy.
Re: Re: Re:8
And that sends a message to the parties, and can over several election cycles start to build a viable alternative party. Sticking with the two main parties does not stop the rot, and when the System becomes very rotten, A Hitler or Mussolini can use that dissatisfaction to gain power and become a dictator.
Re: Re: Re:9
It hasn’t sent a message yet; what makes you think it’ll send a message now?
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Re: Re: Re:5
“The alternative, actually, is violent revolution.”
This isn’t Russia during world war I. You morons would just end up shooting yourselves.
Re: Re: Re:6
Who do you think are the ones shooting themselves? It’s not the ones demanding for gun control. It’s the idiots leaving firearms in their homes and getting wasted by their two year olds. You champions really know how to pick your fighters, don’t you?
Re: Re: Re:3
You can help push the change in the Democratic Party. It’s difficult, but that door has been opened.
Re: Re: Re:3
“I’m just saying there’s very few good Dems left to vote for.
And America does not seem to want to actually fix their white supremacist problem…”
One leads to the other. If you don’t vote for the D in a basically 2 party system, then you hand the power over to the R – and you’re not going to fix the white supremacist problem by handing them, the seats of power.
If you think things are bad now, just wait till the Ds have no power and there’s a bunch of MTGs running around because the Ds weren’t inspiring enough to oppose them…
Re: Re: Re:
Here in lies the problem… you have 73 million Republicans that will say the same thing… there are 80 million dems that will back ANY dem candidate no matter how vile or anti American.
There is no longer any common ground for parties. (or the party leadership at least).
Re: Re: Re:2
Name one—just one!—Democratic candidate or officeholder who is “anti-American” and outline exactly what they’ve done to earn that descriptor.
Re: Re: Re:3
I am not saying that democrats are as bad as rebups. What I am saying is the other side will say the same thing about the dems and would therefore never for any D candidate because, ya know, Ds are godless commies/socialist/whatever word they want to use for demonization today.
Re: Re: Re:4
One party is telling the truth. Guess which one that is! (Hint: It ain’t the party that still kisses Donald Trump’s ass.)
Re: Re: Re:4
Voting in Bad Democrats will ensure the survival of the system that will allow you to vote in Good Democrats.
Voting in pretty much any Republican will ensure that system will continue to be corrupted to a point where you’ll get whatever crackpot leaders they deem you’re worth.
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Re: Re: Re:2
I know a lot of Latinos who voted for Biden. They’re not going to fight for you. You WASP idiots seem to see us brown and black people as your foot soldiers. We might vote for you but we are not fighting your war.
Re: Re: Re:3
Who designated you as the spokesperson for every American Latino?
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Re: Re: Re:4
Who designated you WASP?
Re: Re: Re:5
Your mother.
Re: Re: Re:3
Not when you’re the one setting the standard, no. I can’t imagine anyone would send you to fight in any war, military or ideological.
Re: Re: Re:3 Stupid and racist, and a liar is no way to go through life son
“I know a lot of Latinos who voted for Biden.”
Bro, we know other Latinos despise you.
Re: Re: Re:2
“there are 80 million dems that will back ANY dem candidate no matter how vile or anti American.”
I think you’ll find that the number you’re referring to are people who voted to get rid of the orange failure, not necessarily dems, and the problem is that the other number you mentioned are people who will reliably vote against their own interests.
“There is no longer any common ground for parties.”
Here, you’re correct. It used to be that there was compromise between parties and they could collaborate on important issues. That started to fail when the religious right took over, and was probably ended when Obama got into power, McConnell said he’d try anything to make him a one term president, and the Republicans fought tooth and nail to destroy their own healthcare reform plan.
So, while I’m yet to see any evidence of Democrats being “anti-American”, I have seen plenty of evidence that certain people will only vote on party lines and would rather Americans die and suffer rather than allow a Democrat bill go through. Looking on the outside in, it’s clear who is vile, and it’s not the party that tried reducing the price of insulin, for example.
Re: Re: Re:
This comes down to a very simple truth in the current era:
One party wants to destroy the democratic process entirely.
The other does not.
The only hope for forward progress is to, at this juncture, band together and slay the dragon that threatens to eat us all.
If we want any hope whatsoever of an improvement in the way elections are held, we really do need to hold on to being able to have elections that aren’t impossibly rigged in favor of the R’s.
In the meantime, we can advocate, loudly, proudly, and repeatedly, for improvements like Ranked Choice Voting, and so on and so forth.
I have a very low opinion of the two-party system we have here, but I know that to have any chance of letting something else come into play, I can’t let the R’s have their way.
Re: Re: Re:2
I think Lewis Black said it best back circa 2004 or 2005 when he said:
Re: Re: Re:3
The Republicans are the mass shooter and the Democrats are the Uvalde police.
Re: Re: Re:4
yup.
Re: Re: Re:4
Oof, brutal but not wrong…
Re: Re: Re:3
☝🏻This. I’ve had my disappointments with the party that I’ve spent my whole life with. Especially with the whole Section 230 bullshit a majority are pushing for, a serious problem of members acting like hypothetical moral shills (looking at you Bluthmenthal and Klobachar) and of course the Manchin-Sinema problem. But when push comes to shove, I will always vote for a Democrat. Not just because the two-party system is fundamentally fucked at this point (though I do advocate a semi-parliamentary system with multiple parties and an electoral basis based on census than by arbitrary line work), but because at this point it’s a choice between somewhat stable government and an utterly chaotic campaign based on petty revenge, regressive thinking, and hallucinated logic.
Re: Re: Re:
“Both sides are the same” says one deliberately lying sbout one of them.
Re: Re: Re:2
Anyone who claims that has to either be lying or be so confused by propaganda that they don’t address reality.
I recently saw an account (admittedly anecdotal) of someone who said they’d vote R because they’re angry at Biden for insulin costs. Even though the Ds tried pushing through a bill to reduce it, and it was blocked by Rs. No, because Biden is president, anything he doesn’t push through as dictator much be his fault, best to get the others in charge.
It’s not a phenomenon unique to American politics, but people correctly identifying the problems then being convinced to vote for the people causing them is always depressing.
““The tragic shooting in Buffalo exposed the real dangers of unmoderated online platforms that have become breeding grounds for white supremacy,””
Exactly what platforms are unmoderated?
‘breeding grounds for white supremacy’
You mean like nearly every single police force in the country?
Perhaps you should find them there 3%’s who are scattered all throughout your LEO’s and ask them their views on race relations.
Maybe stop allowing them to get a free pass because they were ‘scared’ by the naked unarmed black man they then murdered?
Maybe stop allowing them to abuse restrained suspects?
While it is really trendy to blame social media, I want you to tell me how much money you gave them to do the job your police failed to do.
You claim they have to do this and that but you aren’t even demanding that from those you employ to investigate and stop these events so I am confused… (not really I know you are a politician & if your lips are moving you are trying to cover your own ass).
Have you held any other 3rd parties responsible for these horrific events?
Why not?
Why is social media being held to a much higher standard that your own police officers?
But sure am glad you lived down to my stereotype of humans who will spend more time focusing on making sure they have properly identified who is at fault before taking any steps… and since you assigned the blame you’ve already decided there is no way that the fault can lie in your camp… but it does.
So, whats the challenge now?
Its INSTANT NEWS.
Instant info.
How the cops can SLOW things down, so they can control WHATS being said.
Things can be seen, watched, Analyzed and compared, Digested, compiled and BLAMED.. In a few days before they can even get a chance to look at anything.
Which is so much FUN. That we can do this in a few days, and the Police agencies take 6 months to Forever. Then we have to DIG IT UP with FOIA which they dotn like to do.
'We dropped the ball multiple times, how dare you not catch it for us?!'
They could have just summed up the entire report with ‘It’s everyone’s fault but ours’.
Meanwhile every would-be killer knows with certainty that if they want national if not global fame gunning down a bunch of people will have their name, actions and ideology plastered on every tv as news stations run the story 24/7, something far more reliable than just streaming the crime, yet strangely the same politicians screaming about social media have nary a word to say about cable news and what impact it might have on deranged killers because in that case at least they understand the first amendment.
Solutions:
Why is the professed alignment to a private organization the apparent deciding factor in nearly every election?
Democracy can’t work when we have an electoral process that seems to be carefully crafted to filter out anybody that might actually be able to do some good. When the key predictor for winning an election is who has the most money to spend, your whole fucking system is broken.
If twelve random people can be deemed trustworthy enough to deliver death penalties or exonerations, then why are we so fucking stuck on the idea that scumbags who happily step over the millions of homeless or hungry in this country on their way to
spending billions trying to out-noise their opponents are the best choice for deciding everything else?
Government by draft. Because what you have to do and be to win an election in this country is enough to prove that you ABSOLUTELY should not be in charge of anything.
The first step, of course, is we need to invent a magic wand…
Re:
We could return to the Middle Ages.
I’ll happily wait for invading knights to burn my home down because the king was either too incompetent, corrupt or worse to protect me then.
Re: Re:
We’re kinda close to it already. A small number of rich motherfuckers run damn near everything, the poor toil for scraps while they make those rich motherfuckers even richer, a plague has swept across the land and killed millions, Keanu Reeves is around…
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Re: Re: Re:
Wont make your life any better Mr. What’s a Plat Map. I know people who are looking at the plat map for their new business within 3 years of getting to this country. I work with immigrant entrepreneurs every day. Every last one of them knows what a plat map is and has reviewed the platting before ever involving me.
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I’m sure you think that’s some sort of cutting remark, but nobody cares about that but you, Mr. Rape Is Funny.
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Re: Re: Re:3
“I’m sure you think that’s some sort of cutting remark”
I know that the fact that you are a loser cuts you.
And I saw it immediately because you have time and time again not known simple things anyone who has lived a normal full life would know.
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Not really. I’m not normal; I know it; I don’t care.
Do you really believe the average person on the street would know what a plat map is? (More to the point: Do you think they’d care?)
Now go away, Mr. Rape is Funny. Your schtick is mid, your rhetoric is mid, your name is mid, your life is mid, and every argument you have against Section 230 is a lie (and also mid).
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“And I saw it immediately because you have time and time again not known simple things anyone who has lived a normal full life would know.”
It’s just sad what a basic bitch your projection is Cactus.
The stupidest part...
The stupid part that nobody seems to dwell on…
here’s a guy who had an obsession to the point of lethal action that “blacks are going to replace us” yet he had to drive 3 hours to find a community with enough black people to make his racist action statement. He obviously did not come to his viewpoint from observations of his community or area.
That’s NY politics in a nutshell.
Frankly, even if you’re willing to go all-in and scrap the First Amendment, scrapping Section 230 is one of the worst ways to try to make that useful. That great deal of liberty being sacrificed wouldn’t even provide a modicum of security. Sometimes at least the bad deals give you something in return, you know? All this gives anyone is a massive headache as the Internet has its underlying principles pulled out from under it.
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“That great deal of liberty being sacrificed wouldn’t even provide a modicum of security.”
I think the key to understanding here is that there people think the rules only apply to them, and not everyone. There’s a lot of whining about left-wing bias, but if you look at what’s really going on, the most censored platforms are on the right. Twitter and Facebook might restrict you for 7 days if you step out of line once, but some “conservative” venues will delete you and everything you ever posted if you step out of line.
What they don’t consider is that if 230 is repealed, it will also apply to them. They no longer have the ability to effectively moderate, and if one of their users done something bad (which happens way more in my experience), they go to the courts.
The silver lining is that if they get what they want, they will suffer greatly.
“All this gives anyone is a massive headache as the Internet has its underlying principles pulled out from under it.”
The US internet. Something that’s sometimes forgotten here is that section 230 is essentially a patch to assert 2 basic ideas – if something bad happens on your property, the person who did it gets sued and not the property owner, and that you keep the right to free association on your property.
Reverting 230 calls these things into question in the US, but they’re largely covered in other countries by other laws which is why they didn’t need a similar “patch”. So, 230 will be a disaster for everyone, but those with a presence outside the US will be less affected as we can mostly just block you off where there’s a question of liability.
Re: Re: RIP economy
Reverting 230 calls these things into question in the US, but they’re largely covered in other countries by other laws which is why they didn’t need a similar “patch”. So, 230 will be a disaster for everyone, but those with a presence outside the US will be less affected as we can mostly just block you off where there’s a question of liability.
Something which I imagine would not be lost on tech companies both current and future who would now have a very good reason to weigh whether or not it’s worth risking a blizzard of lawsuits to set up shop and/or continue to operate in the US.
A couple hundred million potential users is one hell of a market but when it requires offering service in a highly litigious country where a law meant to ensure bogus lawsuits get tossed before they get really expensive was just removed that allure starts waning and cost vs gain starts becoming something to seriously consider.
Transparency in Moderation
There is another disadvantage of requiring transparency in moderation. Bad actors study “transparent” moderation rules and comply with the letter of the rules, while remaining awful. It is hard enough to moderate, particularly at large scale, without having to tell the trolls exactly how to evade the rules.
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And that’s why all the assholes and trolls complain that TOS’s and User Agreements aren’t detailed enough for what is allowed or not.
Blame the fault
The only person responsible for this shooting was the shooter. Period.